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Warhammer 40K has always involved British satire against the right wing. Representation of minorities is an odd request because it's asking them to punch down like edgelords. The phenomenon of people seeing it as glory was probably not expected back when they based an ork on Margret Thatcher, I'm not expecting GW creators to have a fast consensus on how to react to it but I am expecting their sympathies to stay on the left. The right wing's fictional past for a fictional setting is too insane to find a middle ground with, Games Workshop was never their ally.
The extremists are the Far Left nut-jobs who support identity politics shoehorned into 40k. The normal people are the fans calling bullshit and spoiler alert: we are the majority, and we're not going anywhere 😊
Everything up to 6th-7th edition is canon. Every edition after is heresy.
Bull crap men and women are physically different some things are men and women have the SOS and SOB u are buckling
They had an instrument of change through Cawl.
Between Cael and Fabius they can do anything in cannon now. Why they chose this tour will never stop amazing me
The retcon has nothing to do with fan extremism, its about the "why", the virtue signaling and bending the knee to ESG/DEI money and forced diversity. WH40K has never pushed women or any other people away from the hobby, every hobby has sht heads but theyre maybe 1% of the fan base if even that. The vast majority of people dont care who plays it, they care how the IP, lore and canon is maintained and how the hobby evolves, by force or naturally. If you want to enter a hobby space, you are the one whos gonna change themselves, not the people and the setting occupying it, if not, you can turn around and leave.
So it’s worth noting that yes you have a point and things changing because of forces like DEI and Woke push’s aren’t good. But this post ignores that there were people who did want these changes, people in our community that weren’t heard. And in my experience the vast majority of people don’t mind this change and don’t care about adding inclusion. Even if the way this came about wasent good that dosent mean that the outcome can’t be. And for the record the hobby space is forever changing and was always designed to be inclusive as a hobby. Being upset is fine, hold gw to task for being shady, what I am saying is don’t be an extremism, don’t believe the influx of people screaming that everything is awful. And don’t loose sight of warhammer has always been a fluctuating changing world and lore. This is no different Don’t let urself fall into an extreame, don’t let urself be “our way or no way” hold evil accountable without loosing sight of the people who’s complaints there useing for evil. Much love
there is no " extremists on both side " there are plenty of female representations in warhammer, weak and powerfull alike, dumb and clever, human and immortals, the only extremists are the fucking wokes cancers that want to turn warhammer into wokehammer
We don't know much (if any) of the specifics of creating Custodes. But insofar as Space Marines are concerned: The transformation process is dependant on the hormonal system... Testosterone-focused and estrogene-focused systems are quite different. They run on (primarily) an entirely different hormone. That in and of itself should tell you that EVEN IF THE PROCESS COULD BE SUCCESSFULLY APPLIED TO EITHER MALE OR FEMALE, the results would ultimately be quite different. Duh! Super-simplified overview of the basics, but even entry-level understanding of science / biology should inform one of the obvious basics. But no, these inconvenient ideas are entirely avoided when it doesn't help the argument "they" want to make.
Greetings, thanks for the comment So let's apply this logic but in the other direction, Marines are made from children through surgeries, hormonal therapy, the creation of new organs/glands, and the lots of indoctrination to the imperial truth. Humans treated with hormonal therapy have increases in the hormone in question. The results would be incredibly similar because all the "male changes" that occur with increased Testosterone occur during the puberty stage of development, and considering the therapy occurs before that, the human body would change as if it had the Testosterone from the beginning. The body changes based on the hormones in play. It is also worth noting that a study shows that doing activities that give a sense of "power" will increase the body's natural production of Testosterone*. It is also worth noting that both Testosterone and Estrogen are present in every human being (assuming no defect or abnormality is present). The system is focused on one or the other; the system reacts to which hormone is present. "men" have more Testosterone because male organs make more in general, and the reverse is true for Estrogen. Still, again, both are present in everybody. That's how we have men and women who have high levels of either (women with high Testosterone and men with high Estrogen). So if your argument is based on "biology of the human condition," then we have to look at all of the biology, not just the part that supports your belief. The "Woke" movement took real problems faced by real people and used them as an opportunity to make money and hoard power. Don't let the evils of a group make you blind to the people who struggle with issues that are being manipulated. Fuck Sweet Baby Inc and these predators are using real problems to make money and bully people. Also, fuck the Anti-Woke grouping. They are just as bad and doing precisely the same thing for exactly the same reason: money and power. Some real people have real problems, and their issues are being weaponized by the "Anit-Woke," making them all look like bigots. Please stay in the middle and don't let the agendas make us lose sight of the people being affected on both sides. Much love *According to a study done by Proc Natl Acad SCI U S A in 2015, Testosterone can be increased in both men and women as simply as behaving with "power." They found that women wielding power in stereotypical behavior AND "masculine" behaviors saw a significant increase in Testosterone. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4653185/#r45
@@DorknessInc. You are entirely correct! Factually correct. Nice to see people with knowledge instead of just ideology. But that is why I essentially said that male and female focused "marine making" would result in rather different ends. It's about the primary hormonal driver in a system, not the fact that all human beings do have both primaries in their systems. We already know that males flooded with artificial estrogen and females flooded with artificial testosterone will generally end up with shorter lifespans and serious health issues. So in order for the process to be remotely viable it would need to leverage the natural state of a male or female hormonal system, instead of supplanting it with its opposite. Again resulting in rather different ends. Sadly it seems facts and science are considered inconveniences by many these days. And yes, I know we're dealing with a fictional setting suffused with enough crazy to be considered essentially magic in many cases, but it at least purports to be based on science and the like (leaving psychers and the warp etc. out of the discussion for now)... Internal consistency is an absolute must for successful franchises / settings / etc.
The good way to do it is the "primaries" way, and that wouldn't be a good way. Besides, custodes being all male is fluff, it's flavor. One way to do something akin to it is giving a genetherapy to the sororitas. Of course, that would still dilute the fluff.
Much more reasonable then what they did. There are so many examples of better ways to handle this situation.
@@DorknessInc. Yes, way more reasonable.
Repeat after me: "It's OK for men to have male-exclusive spaces the same way it is for women and their spaces."
Now repeat after me “It’s ok to share those spaces when their in the largest game company in a hobbie community. Girls marines and Custodians won’t make anything less for you unless the company makes it less for you, in which case the company was the problem not the girl” It’s a hobbie space for everyone.
What a fantastic post and what a great POV I think ur right about gw going down a peg or two and with the rise of 3d printing this is not the time to be openly disrespecting your fan base
I disagree and I would point you to One Page Rules, I feel personally like they are the best example of war gaming and modeling. There is a black market for counterfeit GW(a problem they largely made for themselves imo) but there are tons of great model creators that sell legit files.
@@abnon-tha3088 its a fair stance i think, and there are great games out there. but I personally found that OPR has the best mind set as a company. they guy that runs it dose a live straem every month now and talks to his audaicne about what happening and why. if you haven't looked into it, I cant recommend it enough. i even have some videos on it. (space lizardmen riding lizards with missle launchers is an option JUST SAYING)
Cuck take
If your masculinity is so fragile that it’s threatened by femininity, it never existed. That’s weak it’s space magic of course female space marines can be made and buff women are awesome
Muscle Mommies for the WIN!!! much love
The thing that does bother me somewhat is that in all forms of media fantasy and sci fi works seem to be held to a different standard of representation to works based in specific real world or historical settings. Even the latter can be subject to similar pressures but by and large it seems more acceptable to keep these relatively true to the level of diversity that is/was present in the real world time and place. It is doubtful that we would even be having this conversation about Flames of War for example. The most troubling part of all is how quickly some are to assume bigotry when there is pushback. I would dispute that having an opinion about the specific roles of a specific subset of fictional females in a fictional setting could ever in itself count as bigotry. It would only potentially be this if it is part of a broader pattern to limit female roles in stories and especially if it also ties in with views on real world female roles. But "I think it makes more sense for those women in this setting to not be in that group" is not in itself bigotry. The change itself is a relatively trivial one but I think it does fit with a pattern of "we want an equal share of yours but keep your hands off of ours" approaches to diversity. But as others have already noted, 40K was already doing a better job of representation than this change will actually bring about anyway. So I would question how many people actually in the hobby were asking for it and how much of a net positive effect it will have. Further, I feel it is a mistake to conflate representation with inclusivity. I absolutely agree that women have often been treated poorly by the community. I need only check out the comments sections of some that I follow in Instagram. Does such a superficial change really do the slightest thing to address this? More likely I think it will create further resentment and division. Maybe it will even set up those historical games as the last refuge for the genuine bigot.
Thank you for taking the time to comment. Diversity and representation are tricky topics, and intent tends to be a big factor. Bad intentions with good outcomes are hard to resolve. What fuels my stance as it is now (as always, its subject to new information) the writers want to tell stories that have females in custodian/marine, that I have met more then a few people in my local areas who wanted it to be a thing and most powerfully how many people I have met that refused the hobby because it was clear that they weren't allowed to be in the "best” and those people are OUR people and we failed them. woke is a terrible beast, but we can’t beat hate with hate. and even thou woke is what got the people all stirred up so that when a reasonable adjust of lore(handled in a terrible way) was implemented the people kind of lost their collective shit. and our community was flooded with people who DO NOT CARE about us or our community and are chasing agendas (on both sides) have you ever had the conversation about female space marines in a hobby shop, it got ugly when I saw it come up more often than not, so it because a problem no one wanted to deal with. hold GW to task, call out there BS, but reject the extremists, much love!
@@DorknessInc. So full disclosure, I am a long term fan of GW but I am not currently particularly active in the hobby. Which I feel does help me to view this more dispassionately than some who are more emotionally invested at this time. But I am invested enough to care about the direction of the GW IPs. I am not what some might term a tourist. In terms of writers telling the stories that they want, it is difficult to really judge to what extent they can even do this in such a corporate environment. If they are telling the story that they want to tell and they want to include female Custodes of their own free will, then I do not have anything negative to say about that. But the way that it has been handled, without any sensible narrative and simply a retcon that is not publicly admitted to, this makes me suspect otherwise. From a narrative point of view, I don't even think it would be all that difficult. Something like revealing that the barriers were more just traditional (so a minor retcon) and that the expanded role of the Custodes outside of Terra provides an opportunity for women to prove themselves in their ranks might do it for me. '... how many people I have met that refused the hobby because it was clear that they weren't allowed to be in the "best” and those people are OUR people and we failed them.' This is the bit that I have trouble relating to and one of the reasons that it feels like a different standard to other works. There is quite a bit that could be said on this but I have no intention of seeking out any of these people and berating them for their views. I just do not understand the mindset that the player needs to be represented in a faction for them to feel that they have a right to play as that faction. As above, such a person would have little choice but to not play historical wargames because there is no real possibility of turning those into self inserts. But then we should also consider the other races in 40K. What person feels represented by the Orks or the Tyranids? But 40K has also always been a place where people can express their own creativity and create their own lore, even if it is not officially recognised as canonical. Even without them being official, I have seen some really rather well done female space marines and I fully respect both the right of the owner to do that, as well as the effort and probably love that went into the project. That person does not need GW to tell them it is OK. I'm not sure that I can agree that a fandom fails potential members because the official lore does not adapt in self serving ways. I think it fails them if they are rejected as people and diminished for their own self expression, which I appreciate does also happen. Fortunately I have not had the female space marines debate and I am thankful for that. I am not sure how much offense my stance on it would cause, which is essentially that I do not agree that they need to be included but I respect GW's right to weave them into the narrative if they choose. It often seems like trying to find middle ground or a moderate path just means you get shot at from both directions.
Good God there’s a lot of absurdity here. Both in the video and in the comment replies… Dan Abnett the ‘architect’ of Warhammer? What the hell are you talking about? Dan Abnett is not the architect of the setting (though based on his more recent novels, I start to wonder if HE knows that…). And just because female Custodes existed in the dreams Aaron Dembski-Bowden and some other writers doesn’t automatically make them legitimate. The Emperor is not male?? Are you serious? Where in any of the lore does it say that? This is just your speculation. People in the comments are right when they say you are reaching hard with some of these excuses. The hobby wasn’t ‘excluding’ anyone before this change was made. You missed the point about people’s issue with the ‘Warhammer is for everyone’ statement. It wasn’t the assertion that anyone should be able to get into the hobby - that’s fine (most normal people assumed that went without saying?). It was Games Workshop’s attitude in the post that people took issue with: “We will continue to represent”, etc… (when the exact importance of seeing oneself reflected in a fictional setting is up for debate); “You will not be missed” (bizarrely antagonistic). People’s antipathy to this change does not ‘justify’ GW or other companies being pro-woke - they would be like this even if there was no pushback. You’re putting the cart before the horse. Your point that there have been several massive lore changes in the setting before now is not a counter-argument either. Stop parroting that the primarchs are a retcon. They have been an established part of the lore for a long time now. That change was made when the setting was still in its infancy. The example of the Necrons and Votann are more valid, but people aren’t merely upset about a lore change here (though that happens too). They do not want lore changes that happen just because of real-world IDENTITY POLITICS. It would be silly to pretend otherwise. They have seen an ideology (masquerading as compassion and virtue when actually it’s moronic and disgusting) filter into their society, their workplaces, and several fandoms they enjoy in their relaxation time. GW fans are reacting to this *in the context* of what they have seen happen with Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, The Lord of the Rings, and with many other companies and fandoms besides. Women already have ample representation in 40K (though the exact importance of ‘representation’ is dubious). There are incredible stories worth telling with the women who already existed in the setting. Want to create an army / storyline involving a lesbian female inquisitor in an inappropriate relationship with one of her retinue? Rock on! There is already space within the setting to do that. The lore and rules of the fictional universe don’t need to be crowbarred out of place to make it happen. Everyone knows why this change has been made, and it is not for aesthetic or story reasons. It would not have been just fine if GW had announced this as an official retcon, because people would still know it was being done just to push identity politics in the setting. If they had construed a reason in the story of the setting for why it was going to become possible, that at least would have been more palatable, though the real-world reasons for it would still have been transparent to many. Regarding the lore / science involved, even if you think people have missed something in their thinking about why it does not make sense to have female Custodes / Space Marines, calling them all sexist for that is just asinine. That’s exactly what woke people would argue. Who is arguing that men are ‘better’ than women just because typically they are physically stronger? That’s a ridiculous straw-man. You call commenters here ‘extremist’ if they criticise wokeness, but wokeness IS extremist. The sweeping majority of people who are unhappy about this will be ones who occupy that middle ground you praise, and yet you call them extreme. People are sick of being labelled ‘extremist’ for having perfectly normal, moderate views. That’s what the woke do. People are not ‘extremist’ for being capable of pattern recognition, for seeing what has happened with the changing of other fandoms, and expecting the same thing to now happen with Warhammer. People are not ‘extremist’ if that demotivates them from continuing to be invested in the lore, and not wanting to support GW with their custom. In one breath you acknowledge that wokeness exists and in the next you employ their exact same rhetorical strategies. You really do not understand what woke ideology is and what its goals are. That’s no clearer than at 9:53 when you imply that woke activists will stop at some point if enough concessions are made. You are right that empty tokenism is pointless. A character’s immutable characteristics should not be the most interesting thing about them. But what you say about Angrboda in GoW: Ragnarok is bizarre as well. You thought making her black was empty tokenism because she was a character who ‘acted white’?? What the hell even is that? For all your claiming in the replies that commenters need to be mindful of their biases, it sounds like you have some racist assumptions of your own to meditate on.
good morning. This is a lot. Let me work it on and see what we have. Okay, architect of a setting. Dan is the writer I know off hand. He is one of the people who literally writes what happens in this setting. Arguing that he is not an architect of a setting is a silly argument; it's his job. You don’t like him, I take it? Or rather, it seems like you feel like his structuring of this IP is not in line with what YOU would like, so he must be wrong. If the writers of the setting have the idea for the setting in mind, and the only thing stopping them is a model line(we don’t have a model for it, so don’t use it), then that exactly means they are a legitimate thing. That’s exactly what that means. The emperor is a perpetual who takes different forms. He is no more “human” than a space marine; he is human-like. With that in mind, gender pronouns probably don’t “need” to apply. The hobby absolutely excluded people before, your nuts or rather I suspect it was never YOU that was bothered. No body YOU know wanted to play but felt left out. Everything in the hobbie worked out for YOU so you assumed that meant it was fine as is, and it should only belong to you. I am getting a strong sense of that kina selfish entitlement when your trying to argue me that the people who write the fiction aren’t the creators of said fiction. I spent a lot of this video and a lot of these comments talking about how GW has handled this badly. And you know there is a lot of room for interpretation with there statements, at the time when they posted its for everyone I absolutely felt it was antagonistic but really if you take YOUR emotion out of it and read it in its entirety as they wrote it there is an argument that it really was just saying that people who are hateful and bigoted won't be missed, and having witnessed exactly the kind of person that referred to in a hobby shop first hand, you know what they WERNT missed. Was it the best way to handle any of that, god no? The primarchs are the best example of the lore not being “set” or “it was a long time ago.” it doesn't change that it happened or that it’s a way that the lore moves and changes; you can invalidate an argument because u want to “timed out” the validity of it. The age of Sigmar came, and people set armies ablaze; that wasn't a political agenda(we mostly agree), and people still lost their shit, and it was a massive change to established lore. And look now, everything is still trotting along, and the extremists are hopefully gone, but I think really they just came back. Ok, let's get into the weeds of us; a group of people on the internet decided why a business does what it does and an artist working for a business does what they do. So again, you, like most people here with such an extreme version of this conversation, have avoided the thing I have been bringing up. Why can't the women of our community tell stories about female space marines? Why does the idea of it existing bother you SO much? You can scream how that’s not the point, and it's woke this and marxsis that, but no one seems to want to discuss why we can't let the females of our community who have wanted this for longer than this “woke movement” can't have it. Because we as a community told them, “You get these, we made them with u in mind, there lesser in every way to our favorite, especially in support, but we don’t think we should have to share,” and that’s a horse shit argument. The woke movement is an extremist movement, and I hate them like I hate the movement that is anti-woke and just as extremists. If the reason there pushing is an agenda but it is STILL THE WAY OUR PEOPLE FEEL then its still the way our people feel. And god help the people in this community that agree because thouse of you that jump on the anti-woke train are JUST as aggressive, just as short sided and as mean as the “woke communists” you claim to fight. Don’t be an extreme. Ok, no, I don’t accept this anymore; we are argued that men were better when we pushed a narrative that the “best” ALL the marines, then the “super marines” custodians are even better, and all of them are men, and everyone loses their mind when someone challenges it. WE TOLD THEM MEN WHERE BETTER WITH OUR ACTIONS AND OUR SELFISHNESS. Just because the woke fucks make an argument doesn't make the argument wrong. It makes the intent wrong. To date, this and maybe 1 other comment, I have called extremists; even people I disagree with, I don’t live like that, but that is how you all operate, it's us or them, black or white. There is a middle ground, Telling people you cant be a part of the best race(and let's not pretend here the entire GW world revolves around the marine factions and it always has, only recently has it even started to shift away) in a hobby that is and should be for everyone IS EXTREMIST when the arguments for why they cant are “men are stronger, the best of the best, genetically men tend to be more psychically fit” lets cut the bull, you don’t want a woman to be marines cause you to think men are better a and more suited to be marines. And that’s not a fair or even way to operate, and even thou the setting is awful (in terms of dark and depressing) that does not grant you, em or any one a license to tell people they cant play, or that they are wrong. And I direct you abck to the writers of the lore, they wanted more options to tell stories. It's not that it doesn't make sense in the setting it's that you don’t want it. And weirdly enough, THAT argument is perfectly acceptable. That argument is at least honest, and while I don’t agree, at least it's not hidden under layers of biases that pretending to be noble defenders. WE CANT BEAT WOKE WITH HATE. Let me say it again because it doesn't seem to stick. Hate cant overcome hate. Woke is a hateful movement disguised as an inclusive ideal. What you purposed here is in the say vain its just written smarter. The look at what they did to my favorite thing doesn't justify ignoring the issues that are raised. I know my biases, I take that into account when I put things into public spaces, as we all should. To explin my referencing in the GOW game, I am referencing the fear-mongering and the push that the group Sweet Baby Inc, pushed into that game and the story that came out about them pushing and fearmongering the production company to change a character after it had been developed and planed because they wanted her to be black as representation. They didn't and didn’t care about it being sincere they wanted to use fear to become a powerhouse in that industry, and they used that same fear to push a change onto that character. Much love
@@DorknessInc. Dan Abnett is an extraordinary writer. I loved the first several Gaunt’s Ghosts books to bits when I was in secondary school, and later the Eisonhorn trilogy. I am somewhat frustrated with him in recent times, but no I do not hate him. When you said Dan Abnett is ‘the’ architect of the setting, that makes it sound like you are claiming Dan Abnett is the overall creative director of the setting, which is not the case. Obviously the Black Library authors who write the novels are involved in further developing the lore. That does not mean they have license to do absolutely anything they want. They are going to be bound to a certain extent by the ‘rules’ of the setting, by what pre-existing details are available, and (as far as I’m aware) the editors and figures in GW who are responsible for the lore’s creative direction. So I say again, Aaron Dembski-Bowden just thinking to himself “It would be cool if we had female Custodes” does not automatically mean they have always existed in the lore. There is no selfish entitlement here. I do not regard the hobby as ‘belonging’ to me and not others. Why would it bother me if a gay person or a woman (or someone of whatever background) wants to get into 40K? Many do. No doubt there are bound to be specific cases where someone was put off the hobby due to a negative experience they had interacting with people involved in it. That could happen to anyone, regardless of what their identity is. Yet it’s quite a jump to go from that to saying “this hobby / this fandom as a whole is exclusionary of people of X/Y/Z identity”. What you said goes both ways - just because someone somewhere felt left out, doesn’t mean that is the experience of everyone like them. As for lore changes, this is a slippery area. Over the span of 40K’s existence as a fictional setting, the trend has been for details to get fleshed out, for things that used to be blurry to sharpen in focus. Primarchs were a relatively early inclusion, and have become an increasingly popular element of the setting. Just because some details of the lore can change (and have changed), it does not mean (for example) that absolutely anything can be retconned to anything else, however often. If that were to be the case, people would lose interest in the setting, because what would be the point of getting invested in something if it can so easily be transformed into something else? So while parts of the lore can indeed change, it ought to involve a certain level of caution - caution that GW has not necessarily always exercised, which is then more likely to lead to outcry from fans. But that matter is not really relevant anyway, because we are not talking about a lore change done for aesthetic or story reasons, or in line with selling new models. Regards your question - why can’t the women in our community tell stories about female Space Marines? For the same reason that the men of our community cannot tell stories about male Sisters of Battle. The lore, for all its potential to get adjusted or include retcons, needs to remain a largely coherent and consistent body, or people lose their investment in the fictional setting. And in the lore as written, Space Marines are male, while Sisters of Battle are female. You misconstrue the reasons. In terms of their popularity and identifiability, Space Marines are ‘superior’ to all other Imperial factions, male and female. Nobody is holding out the Sisters of Battle or Sisters of Silence and saying to female fans “Here - they’re crap, but you’re female so you get this, you have to use this”. There is no lack of ‘sharing’ involved either; no one is denying female players the chance to collect, paint and play Space Marines. And not everyone is going to think that they are the ‘best’ faction anyway. Different people will have their own favourites. (Lore-wise, I used to find Space Marines boring as hell; I wasn't interested). Now, if a group of friends get together and decide to do some kind of 40K RPG or tabletop campaign (or collaborative fiction, or whatever) and informally agree among themselves that female Space Marines are involved, then that is their business. But if they were to try and take that notion and introduce it to a larger 40K community or group, it is going to meet resistance because inevitably there will be people who do not want to go along with something that breaks the lore in such a fundamental way. I will issue some questions in return, though I'm not waiting on an answer: Why would women need to tell stories about female Space Marines specifically? Why is the female representation already in the setting (which, as I said in the previous comment, has scope for some incredible diversity and depth) not good enough? In the first place, why would a person feel they HAVE to play a faction or tell stories about them just because they share some of the same immutable characteristics with that faction? Because you seem to be operating on the assumption that female players are second-class fans who cannot fully engage with the hobby unless Space Marines have women - and that makes no sense. However, I doubt we are ever going to reach any agreement on this matter, because ultimately it comes down to different opinions about the importance of boundaries. Boundaries between categories are not inherently evil or bigoted. They do not need to be broken down just because they are there in the first place. I doubt we are going to agree on the ‘best’ issue either. There is a difference between saying that men are typically stronger / physically more suited for warfare than women, and saying that men are ‘better’ than women in some overall sense. Commenters here have been stating the former, but you seem to believe that is the same thing as the latter. We also won’t agree that the ideas of the woke are fine, and that the intent is the only problem… The two are inextricably linked. There you go again with the ‘extreme’ epithet. This is the same method that woke ideology uses to get its way - paint all opposition as extreme and unreasonable. You say you dislike their attitude, and yet at the same time you champion exactly what they want, and in the same way they do. We aren’t going to agree on where that middle ground is either. People who do not want what the woke want are not extremist because of that. People who want to oppose the ideas (not just reproach the intent) are not automatically hateful or extremist. As the above demonstrates, this is not a case of “Look what they did to my favourite thing” and ignoring the issues raised. It is apparent we fundamentally disagree on those issues.
GW gave Amazon full creative rights over Warhammer 40k, including the right to retcon the entire IP. Amazon has intention to "Disnify" the entire IP. They are going to remove anything that they deem "inappropriate" in order to make the IP more palliaple to general family audiences. Servitors? Gone. Drukarhi? Gone. The great crusade? Never happened. Genocides? Definitely never happened. Inquisitors. Nope. I can go on and on and on. I think you get the idea.
do we have any reference for any of this or is this all assumptions made based on rumors? i dont recall seeing anything about GW not having there rights, and i have only seen a rumor about amazon wanting to make female custodians
I've been a huge proponent of taking official sourced lore and piecing it together in your own Canon. You need to do this sometimes to make sense of it all especially when it comes to something like 40K with lots of contradictions. That being said, I believe that all cannons and interpretations of the Lore are not above criticism. In this case, I disagree with GW on female custodies even though there is a solid argument to be made that they can exist. However, that's besides the point. I think the biggest issue is how GW lazily pushed them in. Same thing with the primarus and in fact I stopped playing 40K around that time. People don't play 40K for the game because in all honesty the rules suck and there are better war games in the market. They play it for the Deep lore at any changes are retcons should be equally well thought out and deep. Ever since 40k started becoming normie-fied, it went downhill. Franchises are like a soup. It has special ingredients and spices from years of development by a culture or people that make it special. The flavor may not be for everyone but it's special to the culture and people that help make it. When a businessman discover's it and decides to sell it, he doesn't appreciate the ingredients that went into it but instead thinks how can he make more soup and make it more palatable to more people. So he's simply what is it down until you can hardly taste what was unique about it.
YES this is more of what i think our community is actually like. we don't have to agree and sometimes I wont like what is in the lore and sometimes you wont and as long as we hold GW accountable for what they poorly we can all support each other. and I believe that the story tellers will be what makes the "soup" good or bad. much love!
if making female custodes might make GW money it just means we can enjoy the hobby for longer time. I dont think anyone will miss those who screech and flail on the floor, claiming they will not buy more warhammer. I remember when WHFB ended and some literally burned their armies. this is nothing in comparison to that and yet some people overreact so violently its mind numbing.
Yes, I think extreme opinions are toxic; I believe that this product has to evolve, and mostly, I think that GW could have handled this in any number of ways that would have been definitely better. much love thanks for the support
Upsetting people from both sides? The fan base built the community and company around the lore to some degree. The woke muppets came along and cried they didn't see themselves in a fantasy setting as they have in every single IP and have set about changing everything to infect it with their odious ideology ruining it for the actual people that did enjoy it. There were the Lucifer blacks that had a mix of males and females, there are sects and groups of just females in the lore already. The worst bit is they could've just made a brand new faction and added it to an advancing story instead or changing established lore. They have done this many times and most people have been fine with such changes. I don't get how you think it's extreme to gate keep the lore built up by the loyal fans who spent their money for years securing and pushing forward the franchise to now be defecated on. I haven't seen anyone saying they don't want others to play, they seem to be saying they don't want new people to come in and destroy whats already established for some poisonous political ideology and victim-hood mentality of narcissistic people needing to see themselves in everything whilst chasing the true fans out. It will lead the same way as it is and has for all the other companies. Lets just be clear, the poison is already in the franchise so it's dead and zombified now. Buy yourself a 3D printer, download and print out or buy secondhand copies of the books and don't bother giving money to a company that has sold out to fascists on the left anymore. The fans can make fan fiction the lore and exclude GW from it. Let them have their perversion. Clearly they have been infected by the warp. This type of thing won't stop if the companies themselves are allowing these people to dictate which shows you also how little they truly care about their customers and fan base. Just my opinion though so if it triggers you, reee below and I will offer you a hug and give you the number for the Samaritans
I hope that the community of hobbyists finds a way for you to return one day; until then, you will be missed. p.s. GW prices are ludicrous buy a printer and play OPR for SURE
Everything doesn't need to pander to everyone. Let me put it this way, everyone is sick of games trying to blend many different styles into the survival crafting sandbox genre, this is similar. Every hobby, every piece of media shouldn't be made for every person we can see this dichotomy in games like sonic where alot of fans hate 3d and alot of them love 3d, it is incredibly hard to strike a balance between both worlds and appease both sides and usually fails. Combine this logic with the way it was handled and when it was, you have to at minimum see why people are have such an adverse reaction. Im not saying alienate those who want to see the diversity, but conceding every point for it is disingenuous to what is established.
Edited to fix grammers. Greetings, first, I agree that not everything needs to be for everyone, but I don't agree that a hobby should exclude anyone. especially if they just want to see something they can relate to. now, the handling of this has been awful, and GW should never be allowed to live this down, BUT there are issues here that are being swept up as we keep labeling this a Woke or Anti-Woke thing. members of our community feel like this, and even though evil people are yelling at it, that doesn't mean we should be ignoring OUR people because they feel left out. I agree the handling and the timing make this awful. but the difference here is that the people who hate the 2d aren't in our forms scream how people who love the 3d need to GTFO. the difference is that this is just a game. Its a community of the hobbyist. the difference is that women representation in this game has always been , here is a consolation prize. here is a weaker faction that we(GW) are going to ignore. Their problem is that they want everything; they want the same thing we want: to be the super cool, ultra-powerful super soldier. and people are telling them no because the lore doesn't support it when the lore changes all the time. when the authors are saying "we want to make female custody but due to a lawsuit we can't yet cause there are no models and GW lost a lawsuit to some guy in Texas (chapter house and i am paraphrasing) women were told that they are lesser and should accept lesser, and frankly, as a hobby, we should have fixed this a long time ago. female space marines don't pollute anything, and as long as the writers are able to make it work, there is no reason to think this dilutes the water. women shouldn't have to accept a lower position in our hobbies because we said so. It's a hobby, and it should be for anyone. and being inclusive doesn't have to mean bad. It's just how people have been abusing it and using the gap to take advantage of the situation. See Sweet baby inc., inclusive wasn't the problem predatory villains who took advantage of a situation are the problem. you want to beat woke, you cant do the same thing they are but in reverse. much love sorry about the spelling Grammer mess its the end of my work day and my familys waiting.
@@DorknessInc. I didn't actually think id get a response, as for the grammar I understand that. I agree that the timing and handling have led to more division then necessary on the topic...that said I disagree with changing the lore all the time simply to fit whatever, that precedent however can be dangerous. If anything can be, then why establish anything at all? It can be incredibly damaging. Please note that im not speaking about Warhammer alone, but as a general statement. I feel like it is pertinent to bring up the societal question because the polarity of this topic seems to be exaggerated due to the state of society. While I understand that is a community, in all communities there are extremes on both sides and most often it seems that only one side catches flak. If you wanna play sisters of battle as a guy or all male space marines as a female doesn't matter at all and I dont believe that it ostracized anyone. For instance I dont get mad at Harry Potter for simply not using non magical weapons to fight, I accept that is the world created. The reaction that games workshop had probably radicalized more people to one side or another and I think that some now are unwilling to compromise on the back of that, which I believe is fair.
@@patrickschweitzer4978 Yes this is what i want to promote, we are a community of people who don't have to agree and we can still be respectful and supportive. i think that GW has changed there stuff so much and there world is so silly at this point that I don thing it really makes any difference, I truly think that they should have just made NEW lore and built stuff up moving forward. that would have been the easiest. much love
The middle ground is for weak men. This guy's voice proves it. He nags like an auntie.
....i seriously hope ur auntie sounds better then this, my condolences if not...
Lore matters, story matters, and any attempt to augment, molest, or destroy the crafted story for the sake of someone’s ego (mostly the trans community) is a perversion of the vision and craft…they can go fuck themselves with spoon sideways.
so what are we calling it when the lore was uprooted to add Primarchs, or Necrons, or adjust ANY number of the changes made in Warhammer over the years. I haven't seen anyone in the trans community that is also in our hobbies space out here demanding things and being ignorant. the extremist of this whole thing does not represent our people, and our people who also are in other communities (trans, for example) are not the ones that are the problem here. Make the distention. Not everyone in these communities is the problem, and we shouldn't be blaming an entire community of people for what some of their peers are doing. from either of these sides by using hate and interlace.
10:17 ...and how are they doing good? Manufacturing problems just to fix them isn't helping anyone, and the fact their openly racist towards white people, makes me think their the last group of people anyone should be listening too.
let me explain it may not have come out right Sweet baby Inc Detected is working. i am the only one who is doing these videos and edits at the moment. FUCK SBI Fuck BGG. these intorant predators are abusing a legitimate problem we should be addressing with compassion. there scum and they used peoples want to be better to abuse power, make money and force there visions that only represented themselves,
7:17 How are men and women completely the same? I shouldn't have to say this, but we are a dimorphic species. I'm not saying that it is a good or a bad thing, just that we're different, and built for different purposes generally speaking of course. If that wasn't the case then why is it that women classic can't compete with women+ who are basically just watered down versions of men thanks to having been on hormone replacement therapy?
Greetings, In the scheme of "who we give the best to" and "who becomes super soldiers," men and women are the same. Remember, this is within the context of making super soldiers with gene-splicing. But as I explained, there is more than strength that makes a human strong. Resilience, toughness, and flexibility when building a super soldier have a significant impact. We are a dimorphic species, and we are a species that does not create 100% male or female. We all lie somewhere on that scale. We are a weird and beautiful species, and we (men and women) are different; those differences are worth discussing. But here, in this context, nothing different between us matters as we talk about a fictional setting where humans are turned into monsters that look human(space marines). The problem here is that some women and some folks who don't identify as the same easy cookie-cutter identities found in a minority of fans of this fan base are being told that they are not allowed. In this fictional Sci-Fi silliness, it doesn't make sense to be those super soldiers. This legitimate complaint was amplified by evil people within the "woke" and instead then having a conversation, it turned into this shit show it's becoming. And I am trying to help my fellow hobbyists see that it doesn't have to be this way. But in order to actually deal with the problems and listen to the people who are being ignored in all this political screaming, I had to hear what their problem was, and now I am trying to make the issue known so we can show that we are a community or level headed people and we are not extremists.
@DorknessInc. I seriously disagree that we're some mixed version of male or female...I think what your thinking of is gender expression which is a little different than gender as in whether your a boy or a girl. I'm okay with effeminate men and tom girls, but the Left isn't, because if your not a manly man or a girly girl then you must be trans...which is just more of shoving people into boxes rather than letting them be who they want to be. Being a girl who likes playing football shouldn't mean that she doesn't identify as a woman, and telling her that she's wrong, she must be what others tell her she is, just sounds plain evil to me. Getting back on track though, because this is a fictional setting, okay, I agree, but it still has to adhere to logic. We're talking about a procedure that will kill roughly 90% of all who go through it...given how we're working with some extremely powerful, and extremely potent genes here, if a woman were to attempt it I don't think the survival rate would be that high...like maybe only a handful at best making it through it, and even if they survived, I don't think there would be much if anything female remaining because size, stregth, and muscle mass are all masculine characteristics...although I've seen one article of some extremely delusional woman making the argument that cavewomen were stronger than cavemen, which if that were the case, then how in the hell did men "oppress (protect and cater to)" them? Yes women can put on muscle, but it's not going to be to the same degree men can, so can we please just agree that biological reality exists independent of your belefs and ideology? Anyway, even if a few women went through this, let's be real that's it's only going to be a handful, like a thousand or so men for every woman. The question though, given the setting, why would women be put through it if they had such an abysmally low success rate, especially given how important and rare what we're working with here? The best way to solve it is to simply invent a new group, and work from there...kind of like how the sisters of battle/silence, while fierce, are no space marines...and that's okay. I'm all for inclusion, but the waif-fu trope has to conform with reality if we're talking about a somewhat realistic setting. Through proper training, using weapons, etc. yes, a woman may win, but a 90 lbs. woman kicking a 200+ man through a wall just isn't going to happen because we're talking about raw physics at this point. Going hand to hand is just going to get her killed, so something constructive like jabbing at the guy's eyes, or attempting to break his knee caps with a kick would work more realistically. Take note: my argument doesn't just boil down to women are weaker than men. Yes the average man is stronger than the average woman...being proud of that would be like me saying that I'm proud of being taller than the average woman (and yes, of course, there is always exceptions, but then again I know of a tall asian, so apparently we can get rid of that short asian sterotype...right?) hence going back to my reason for why transwomen competing against women's classic is like a 30 year old NFL player competing against a junior high football team...what do you think is going to happen? The junior high team may get a few wins in, but when the score is 24-2, who cares? Going back to reality for a moment stuff like this is going to get women harmed if not killed, because a lot of women think men are afraid of them, when really men are afraid of other men stepping in and doing something if they offend or upset a modern-day woman. I refuse to treat women like their my inferior, which is why I treat them the same way I would as if a man would say the exact same thing to me. Put another way, do you tell an adult, or a child, that Santa Clause exists and that they can be president? That said why would I treat a woman as my inferior by telling her that biological reality doesn't exist? I am not going to treat women as a spoiled child, and just give them what they want...no matter how much they may beg (or more accurately...insult) me into doing so.
@@DorknessInc. I seriously disagree that we're some mixed version of male or female...I think what your thinking of is gender expression which is a little different than gender as in whether your a boy or a girl. I'm okay with effeminate men and tom girls, but the Left isn't, because if your not a manly man or a girly girl then you must be trans...which is just more of shoving people into boxes rather than letting them be who they want to be. Being a girl who likes playing football shouldn't mean that she doesn't identify as a woman, and telling her that she's wrong, she must be what others tell her she is, just sounds plain evil to me. Getting back on track though, because this is a fictional setting, okay, I agree, but it still has to adhere to logic. We're talking about a procedure that will kill roughly 90% of all who go through it...given how we're working with some extremely powerful, and extremely potent genes here, if a woman were to attempt it I don't think the survival rate would be that high...like maybe only a handful at best making it through it, and even if they survived, I don't think there would be much if anything female remaining because size, strength, and muscle mass are all masculine characteristics...although I've seen one article of some extremely delusional woman making the argument that cavewomen were stronger than cavemen, which if that were the case, then how in the hell did men "oppress (protect and cater to)" them? Yes women can put on muscle, but it's not going to be to the same degree men can, so can we please just agree that biological reality exists independent of your beliefs and ideology? Anyway, even if a few women went through this, let's be real that's it's only going to be a handful, like a thousand or so men for every woman. The question though, given the setting, why would women be put through it if they had such an abysmally low success rate, especially given how important and rare what we're working with here? The best way to solve it is to simply invent a new group, and work from there...kind of like how the sisters of battle/silence, while fierce, are no space marines...and that's okay.
@DorknessInc. I seriously disagree that we're some mixed version of male or female...I think what your thinking of is gender expression which is a little different than gender as in whether your a boy or a girl. I'm okay with effeminate men and tom girls, but the Left isn't, because if your not a manly man or a girly girl then you must be trans...which is just more of shoving people into boxes rather than letting them be who they want to be. Being a girl who likes playing football shouldn't mean that she doesn't identify as a woman, and telling her that she's wrong, she must be what others tell her she is, just sounds plain evil to me. Getting back on track though, because this is a fictional setting, okay, I agree, but it still has to adhere to logic. We're talking about a procedure that will kill roughly 90% of all who go through it...given how we're working with some extremely powerful, and extremely potent genes here, if a woman were to attempt it I don't think the survival rate would be that high...like maybe only a handful at best making it through it, and even if they survived, I don't think there would be much if anything female remaining because size, stregth, and muscle mass are all masculine characteristics...although I've seen one article of some extremely delusional woman making the argument that cavewomen were stronger than cavemen, which if that were the case, then how in the hell did men "oppress (protect and cater to)" them? Yes women can put on muscle, but it's not going to be to the same degree men can, so can we please just agree that biological reality exists independent of your belefs and ideology?
@DorknessInc. I seriously disagree that we're some mixed version of male or female...I think what your thinking of is gender expression which is a little different than gender as in whether your a boy or a girl. I'm okay with effeminate men and tom girls, but the Left isn't, because if your not a manly man or a girly girl then you must be trans...which is just more of shoving people into boxes rather than letting them be who they want to be. Being a girl who likes playing football shouldn't mean that she doesn't identify as a woman, and telling her that she's wrong, she must be what others tell her she is, just sounds plain evil to me.
Pregnancy makes women tougher. You are trying to tell me pregnancy will make a person a better soldier. Oh man, that's retarded. How this got into my feed is beyond me.
Actually, I said Pregnancy made women strong, and then I said that kind of strength made them just as good or better candidates to be mutated into super soldiers built with gene-splicing and magic pseudoscience in Warhammer. But sure, watch 20 seconds of a video and comment. much love!
The social engineering is abhorrent. Its not about women or inclusivity, there is not a more diverse environment than 40K lore. Women are leaders, heroes and martyrs. Its about subverting what hetero men like and have made popular. Its about turning everything into an amorphic mass with no origin and no destiny in order to rule it forever. An endless eternal now in which the Party is always right.
That is a take on it, sure. I agree that the social engineering on display right now in these "woke" movements is abhorrent, and I agree that we need to hold accountable the practices that preach this level of segregation and push us apart. I disagree that the Hetero Man is being subverted, while "Woke" targets that insecurity and uses logical arguments taken to the extreme. I, as a hetero man, don't feel any less proud about it. Most people I talk to fall into this category; they don't feel personally attacked. The problem I see is that there are terrible, awful people who saw an opportunity to take advantage of and abuse a system flaw for their gain. Ordinary people aren't extremists, and regular, average women aren't trying to take away manhood when they want a female character to be in the most prominent, most substantial, most popular group. Most of the time, they want it for the same reason we do, because it's awesome. Please don't let the loud, angry evil in people close your eyes to the real problem just because the evil people tied it to an agenda. Women and people who don't identify in conventional ways with older mindsets are still people and have every right to be heard and considered. Everyone who yells about this loses sight of the fact that some people feel like this. And just because "woke" came screaming their political B.S. doesn't take away from the average person feeling left out when the game their friend play says only this type of person can be the biggest, the best, everyone who doesn't fit this mold go collect a consultation prize. And the environment in 40 isn't "diverse" in this sense. It's all men's best, and the women don't get to be the best, so we made them weaker and physically attached to Tagalog. And then most other armies don't do this silliness. Will space marines be less marine if they were made from females (they're not human)? Does the idea of a girl getting to be the badass super soldier fighting the most dangerous things in existence stop you from enjoying your enjoyment? Please keep your perspective and remember that groups of people who do not have good intentions are trying to make money from all this. And remember, they are on BOTH sides. If the group you listen to tells you it's "us or them," they are probably the bad guys. If you don't want "Woke" to win, you can't fight it with the same kind of hateful, bigoted, short-sighted narcissus that the Woke Warriors are using to push it. Hate breeds hate; be better like I know you are. P.S. Even if female space marines exist, I still think Hetro men are cool. Even though they are not my preference.
@@DorknessInc. You are so beautifully naive and good intentional that i would gladly kiss you and give you a hug and a cookie. If we would be dealing with people like you i would grant you corect on all you wrote. Yet we are not! You have signed an accord that you will not use napalm and nerve gas because you want to be humane, yet your adversary is drowning your side of the front with his napalm and nerve gas because he sees your humanity as weakness. He uses your nobility against you! There is no negotiating with absolutists! And make no mistake, that is what you are confronted with. You appeal on me to be understanding and tolerant?! Of whom? Postmodernist identitarians that whine to the big tech and the state apparatus to curtail your freedom of speach everytime they dont get theire way? And for all your patronising secular humanistic misguided fallacy, i ask you: would you write equivalent words if a group of men wanted a chapter within the Sisters of Battle? I weep for people like you. You are such beautifull souls, yet you throw pearls before piggies.
@@DorknessInc. I wrote you back 3 times. Well, elaborate and with no cursing, yet the techie big brother digital gulag enforcing youtube deletes everything. I will abdicate because now im begining to become really angry. To the Warp with jutub! Modern internet disgusts me!
Go woke go broke
Yep
i wont be on the extremists of an issue while there is still reason and sensibility. i wont outcast some one because there complaint was used by an evil group of self-righteous bigots and yelled loud as "lack of representation" any more then i will support the same style bigots screaming about Wokehammer. there is a middle ground. much love
Excellent summation, I don't agree on all points but on some and i value to hear your point of view. Tho I find that the shoehorning of female characters is insulating to women. My favorite character from 40k or rather 30k is Lotara sarrin. She goes so f*** hard on her own merits and character,
i agree, shoehorning in was the WORST of the many ways GW could have done this, the females i know that love this setting all agreed give us new, exciting characters, move the setting forward intro duce ways for the new stuff to have females, or make the desperation of humanity overcome the need for it to be men. GW has insulted its fan base and should be held to task for it. but i dont think the way to do that is with hate, bigotry and extremists nonsense. Much love
sounds like cope.
cope, hope, doesn't matter, i wont be on the extremists of an issue while there is still reason and sensibility. i wont outcast some one because there complaint was used by an evil group of self-righteous bigots and yelled loud as "lack of representation" any more then i will support the same style bigots screaming about Wokehammer. there is a middle ground. much love
Rationalism is well and good, but fence sitting achieves nothing besides letting the loudest side ‘win’. GW lost me years ago when legitimate boutique model options (Kingdom Death) became more affordable. Then they told their community they won’t be missed. Now they’ve slapped a minge on a custodes and I’m honestly wondering how anyone is surprised.
you know i agree the GW has done this in the worst way they could have. i believe that there is a difference between holding them to task for what they have done, and being the loudest. the loudest get the media attention, and the extremists. but the rational calm of us will still be here when the net woke thing pops off, and how we supported each other, and whos voices we pushed forward is going to be what determines what this space looks like afterword's. normal, rational, compassionate people don't have to be the loudest we have to be the most persistent and the most enduring. i dont want people to sit on the fence, but i dont want people to segregate themselves into camps of extremists who are using this as an opportunity to push agendas. We are better, we deserve better. Side bar: what do u play with Kingdom deaths do you paint there models? i dont see many of them painted pop up on my feeds much love!
Nah. It should only be the men who are expendable to lose their entire gender on this process. Whichever side you're going to appeal to is inevitably going to change the fundamental lore from which the custodians were made and why they were made. First, making both male and female infertile would not only piss off coomers but also the noble lines of terra themselves. 1-1000 failure rate is a lot already for noble sons but asking for their daughters to take a crack at it is not going to make that noble blood last for long. Earth/Terra would take so long to conquer because not only would they be opposed to this but remember that the Emperor isn't the only one vying for control in the unification wars. Second, even if he did make them fertile, the Emperor would be in turn making a whole new human race which he was already opposed to when he originally started gene-crafting his Primarchs. Why would the Custodes be safe from this oppositions? It would also make him just like Fabius Bile with his New Men and Women project. In conclusion, either change nothing or change everything. I wouldn't be opposed to Bile's suggestions but it should remain as HIS suggestions.
Greetings. Thanks for the comment. Ok, so let me start with the Custodian Lore. The guy who spearheads much of the lore for this series said he wanted female Custodians. That HAS to count. Seconded Retcon is a way of life for GW. Now fundamentally changing the lore happens in GW all the time, Primarchs, Necrons, War Suits, the fucking Necron. Just because there is change does not mean it will be bad. The Custodians were made for two things, neither of which change here, Guard the emperor and his shit and, when time, kills the space marines. Let's talk about nobles in this setting. There are not any noble families that do not view everyone and everything as expendable. I disagree that ANY of the houses would hesitate to send their daughters. Ratios be damned. For people of that stature, just like in our world now, life means NOTHING in the pursuit of power. I believe that gender and different ratios of volunteered family kids would not affect the unification wars. That entire time period fell under it because Big E said so. Now, on to space marines not being human, which I love that you brought up. I agree entirely that space marines are not human, and they were not supposed to replace humans. He wanted normal humans to be the thing that survived, and there are many clues that A. didn't trust his marines and B. planned to "thunder warrior" them once the time was right. Remember that the gene crafting primarchs is a retcon, but since we are on it as a topic. If you argue that at the time when the selection was available and the need was low(comparatively), only men were taken, I think that is a 100% valid and reasonable take. But now that we are at the edge of the entire race dying and having to be saved by plot armor, this would be the time to throw everyone in the grinder and see what you get. Cawl made an entirely new breed, so is the argument that a peinis is required to survive the transformation? Cause that's a weird argument. In response to your conclusion, I offer this. GW changes everything all the time. If it were not for the current political environment and vultures trying to prey on groups of ordinary people, this would have been a discussion in hobby hopes for a few weeks, and then that would be it. Evil people are trying to infect these hobbies, but it's not as simple as "Go Woke, Goes Broke," and the counter to it is not as simple as "rant and rave and yell." Woke can shine a light on this because our community has loud, ignorant bigots who live power fantasy in this game where women are less. They are the minority in our space, but they are loud. Consider this. If a hobbies group gets to pick which person to keep, who do you want? The neck beard with the boot knife who hasn't showered in 3 weeks because he" gotta train for the civil war that's coming" comes in and rants about how separate but equal is ok for women. Or the woman who will come into the hobbies and fall in love with it. Cosplay, create and become a voice of reason in our community and hobby shops. Is it always that simple? God, no, but remember that there are other people in this world, and because it is not a problem for you and You are represented, it doesn't mean that it is not an issue or barrier for someone. Woke works because they took a real thing and used it to profit. They abused and manipulated real-life problems and concerns into an agenda. I ask only that we be better because we are better. We don't have to agree, and we will argue, but we aren't the extremists or the ignorant. That is why our hobbies will survive: the average loving community we are outnumbers the radicals and the extremists, and we all want anyone who wants to be here. Change shouldn't scare us, and we can hold people accountable without giving in to violence, hate, bigotry, and sexism. We can reject the abusive, manipulative WOKE without giving up our humanity and compassion for the people whose voices are being used as weapons in a war they didn't want. Much love. PS Bile SOB mutant super soldiers would ROCK.
@DorknessInc. Ah, the good old adage of big E said so. You may as well have just said that either very little of actual nobility or none at all exists in Terra after both of the futures of their families cross into infertility. But I feel like you're accusing me too much of sexism here. My favored faction on tabletop is Knights even prior to this debacle. We're pretty much open to both genders as long as you are noble blood. You see that? Noble blood. Can you see where I am attacking this issue? At least Knight aspirants still have their most of their biology intact even if they fail their ritual of becoming or become armigers or skitarii overseers. Knights have also been the closest rival of Custodes on the tabletop in volume of units. We both don't have much on the tabletop but who do you think the women would flock to first? As far I'm concerned The only reason women these days are interested in Custodes has only been Henry Cavill. Because it's his faction that he has been painting. But if we remove him from the equation who do you think is going to be more noticed on tabletop? A stream of gold or a large monstrosity towering over it? Or what about one that's covered in gold? If all it takes for is for a few investments to change the story then I'll put my investments into my change and I'll gladly ask others to do so too. I'll still welcome Fabius's or whoever it is that still thinks it's the Imperium's Custodes. Underneath my armoured feet. Knights never needed the Imperium to live anyway, if we're still being lore accurate here.
I am of the understanding that the process to create a Space Marine is so harsh that most candidates do not survive the process. Hence why only a small fraction of humanity even qualifies for the selection. Humans are a sexually dimorphic species and this underlying principle is considered a given in most fiction. Warhammer is no different. If the selection process involves screening for the top 0.1% in terms of physician capability. 100/100 candidates will inevitably be men. These people are outliers among trillions. Even in real life, woman are subject to lower physical standards in the military. Setting aside psycker and blank genes, humans in Warhammer are just like us. Its not sexist to assume male humans will always be the default for space marines. And if you mean by tougher, woman have a higher than average pain threshold and more flexible joints to withstand childbirth, then sure. But that does not translate to physical ability. I remember our physical instructor giving us a lesson about flexibility. He demonstrated the difference in flexibility between the males and females' in the class. The males had more rigid forward facing arm joints. Which made us better at hand to hand combat. This really pressed onto me the physical differences between men and woman If Warhammer established humanity as a monomorphic species, with no physical differences setting aside sexual organs, then I would be more forgiving. But that is not the case. The process to create a Custodes is a little different so it might be possible to create a female Custodes. Setting aside the fact, there is no established precedent for the nobles of Terra for giving their daughters away. Games workshop went at it the wrong way. Their also ignoring the representation that already exists. The Sisters of Silence and Sisters of Battle, there's females inquisitors, female assassins' and female Imperial guardsmen. You don't need to be a man or genetically modified to shoot a lasgun. It also always goes one way, I doubt they will add men to the sisters of battle or silence. But emperor forgive us if male only spaces exist. Brotherhoods are now considered mysognistic. I disagree with the notion that space marines are no longer male, they are genetically modified and the process turns them sterile. But they are still men and the lore refers to them as men. Yes its fiction, but fiction reflects reality. There needs to be a sense of familiarity, a chair in real life is still a chair in fiction. You can play around with the concept and give it fantastical elements. But the underlying principles are usually the same. This naturally extends to fictional representations of humans as well. Familiar concepts coupled with good writing creating a sense of escapism. You feel like you're in the world itself and can see yourself in the characters. This is also another big reason why people don't like this woke representation. It destroys the emersion. In the future, when a Warhammer fan looks upon a female custodes. They will not see a well written character that belongs in the Warhammer universe. All they will see is propaganda implemented by some activist or executive who wants to promote their ideology or to receive investment funding from Black Rock. It doesn't feel organic or genuine. Also no, Sweat Baby Inc is not removing the bullshit. Their a part of the problem. There is also the issue of marketing. Warhammer is a male dominated hobby which means you should logically advertise to a male audience. I do think everyone should be allowed to get into the hobby. But antagonizing your core demographic is a recipe for disaster. The response on twitter was an insult to our intelligence
A few points of rebuttal: -Space marine selection includes kids as young as 8 years old. Sexual dimorphism begins with puberty. When recruiting pre-pubescent kids there isn't going to be any noticeable difference - augmentation is essentially an alternative to puberty. Now some chapter will recruit 15 or 16 year olds and the Space Wolves can recruit 20 year olds so obviously that's a bit different. Also, interestingly, most chapters use exposure as their main trial and women are actually more resistant to it than men! We've also seen sickly children with tough minds make for fine space marines in many cases so the physical attributes of the recruits don't seem to matter as much as their mental resilience. -with regards to feasibility for Custodes, ADB has said for years that the process would absolutely work on females. Maleness also isn't a core part of Custodes identity like it is for space marines. -With regards to the way they did it, this is also how they handled newcrons, grav weapons, Centurion suits etc.
Greetings, thank you for the comment. You have a lot of good points here that should absolutely be a topic of conversation. So let us chat about your proposed points and acknowledge and discuss them. Ok, so let's start with the space marine creations. The number of aspirants that die in making space marines is LUDICROUS. I still stand to the point that we are genetically modifying humans to their peak, and the differences in males and females wouldn't survive this process. I still deposit that if we want the "rational" argument based on real life, then the argument becomes, "fuck them throw everyone into the woodchipper; whoever survives comes out a marine." Because this is war, and it's a war that humanity is not winning, even if you deposit that there is enough of a difference, it becomes a moot point once we get into the need in the setting for more marines. I would also like to take this moment to point out that if we are basing this on the lore answers, then Primarchs should not exist because they are a retcon. So, I want to bring to attention that there are not many arguments for why there shouldn't be that don't boil down under scrutiny to "boys are better" or "because WOKE," and we as a community are better than that. So, a comment on military standards: TRUST me when I say that the standards to get into the military today are significantly less than previous generations. It is also worth noting that things like the Navy Seals don't lower anything, and they got their first female graduate recently. As a sidebar, remember that until recently, women weren't ALLOWED to try and become Seals. It wasn't that they couldn't DO it. It was that they weren't allowed to try. See, I disagree with some interpretations here regarding how humanity would inflate. And in fact, we see evidence of what I propose in our fiction. But I digress. We live in a world where men have dominated for a long, long time, and as a man, it's easy to get defensive when this topic comes up, and I have to check myself sometimes in transparency. But there is much evidence that women will and do rise to seats of power with or without "permission," and I promise you, the woman of a wealthy family raised to be a soldier will beat the shit out of a man raised by a poor family to be a soldier. Opportunity, health, and genes are many factors to consider. The reality of our world is that the elite and super wealthy stay in the 1% because they have the most opportunity and advantage. So, when we scale that to hive cities, if you want the best of the best, you have both genders, rouge traders and high empire citizens, which are 1%, and there are conatively many females in those roles. Physical ability poetically is irrelevant when you are going to super solider someone. Toughness and flexibility might increase the survival rate. There is a solid argument, but I prefer to look at it as what comes out isn't human. So, it doesn't matter what went in. The need for cogs in the war machine will outweigh any gender biases present in any setting. It is also worth pointing out that space marines, by and large, are taken as children, and their development is rigorously overseen and controlled. Now, let's splash in some real-world things here. GW lost a lawsuit against Chapterhouse a long while back, leading to the police saying, "If there isn't a model, don't make it a thing." THAT has had more to do with the only male space marines and Grey Knights and Custody than anything the architects of Warhammer have said they want to make stories with female custodians but couldn't, which is the prevailing reason. Also, worth noting (I got this from the PoorHammer podcast and love those guys) is that now that the Horus heresy is done. We are moving to BEFORE that, and it makes much sense that GW wants to allow the writers to pursue the idea of female Custody. The other theory is that Amazon pushed for it, which might also be true. This is where I think all of us who are reasonable can agree that GW did not have to handle this situation like this. There were LOTS of options, and ANY of them would have been better than how they chose to resolve this. So let me, as a representative of men and an advice lover of women, shed some light on why the brotherhood misogynistic argument is out of line HERE. Now, please know I am only talking about Warhammer and GW, which is all this applies to. There is a reason that some people want representation in the Space Marines and the elite is simple, and it is not because of misogynistic ideology. The only people I have ever seen make that argument are fake fans who want to come into this space and start shit under their political ideology and people who assume that that is the reason but have never actually asked anyone from a demographic who would know and cares about the hobbies. They want female space marines, and none gender space marines, and space marines that don't give a fuck about gender for the same reason you and I want space marines in our hobbies…. because they kick ass. They are an allegory for being "better" than we are; they face the darkness of nothing and never flinch. They are written and treated like gods in their lore(tabletop is a different story, but I digress); the women who want this want it because they want to have an avatar in this setting, JUST LIKE WE DO. And that reality is being buried behind these vultures. Woke this, anti-WOKE that. Blah blah blah, Star Wars died not because of woke but because when their fan base had an opportunity to hold them accountable and be reasonable so that the accusations of bigotry could be discussed, no one did. Everyone let the extremists do what they wanted, and it was lost. (For now) Please hear me when I say you cannot fight ignorance with ignorance and win. Being sterile isn't what makes space marines note "male." It's part of what makes them not "Human." On Spiderman, the game is or isn't woke. I honestly don't get to play video games much anymore. Still, the story of Spiderman (MM) is well built from the ground up and a fantastic representation of what's possible and why the other Spider-verse folks feel incomplete by compassion. And you know, honestly, if "white" Peter Parker takes a break from the line light, that is ok. It's ok for newer, different takes to take their turn, and it doesn't devalue what was there before(unless it does, but for the sake of this argument). Yes, ethnic/sexual orientation/gender-washing characters are insulting to the people they should represent. We should shun them, but at the same time, we have an obligation as fans of that medium to try to lift our fellow humans. If you care enough to complain about it, you care enough to advocate for a better way that includes more people. I agree 100% that there must be elements of real life in fiction that anchor us. We disagree because I understand that there are other people in this world and that representing me doesn't mean they feel represented. I am very fortunate in representation. There is usually someone or thing I can identify with, so it is not fair for me to say that other people should feel the same when they AREN'T represented. Let's talk about sisters quickly on that topic. SOB love them, battle nun good shit. Tell me with a straight face that objectively, SOB is not the Robin to Space Marine's Batman. They are a consolation prize with a fanatic's coat of paint. And I like them, but they are. The space marines are at the top of the top and get the most out of the game workshop efforts, and sisters couldn't even get superhuman added to their list. It is not because the brotherhood is misogynistic. It is because women want the cool shit too. And you know what? A few chapters of Female Space Marines do not affect the other chapters' brotherhood. Including females doesn't mean there can't be chapters that are men only. Although in my opinion I think that's a boring option. But I also think space marines are human and shouldn't conform to humanity anyway. Lastly, the line "you need to be able to see yourself in the character" is the real issue here. For me, and I assume you, it's never been an issue. But for some people, it has been. And who are we to tell them they are wrong? We don't own this IP, and miniature-wargaming is something they can relate to; it's not behind a veil that we must approve. If someone doesn't feel like they have a character, they can relate to why we must stop them. It took me some effort the first time someone challenged my thinking on this, but the reality is that some women and people who want to be super badass soldiers don't identify in the way that I do. Why is it fair for me to tell them no because, in this situation, I already have SO MUCH, and they were given pity factions? If a woman or a girl wants to be a Boss Bitch Space Marine captain, if that ignites her creativity and lets her experience the story, then who am I to stop that. We don't need ALL of the bother hoods of the best. We can share some and still have our brotherhood stories. And if GW was wise (not that I think they are), they could easily make that conflict mirror this real-life conflict as if it were human. Why do you want more? Why can't you share? That's as human as it gets. Much love! PS. Just to be clear fuck sweet baby inc., their bullies and opportunist are trying to take advantage of people who are trying to be better, they are evil, and we should all be holding them to the task. Same for BGG, and Blackrock. Hold these opportunist bigots to task. But don't let Yourself become a monster while you do it; be better. I know you can.
Thank you for taking time to comment. these are really good point, the human condition is complex and there is a lot too it. while these are great things to consider lets still remember at the end of the day GW could have just chosen to respect us lol. it is sad that its on us as a community to pick up and maintain our integrity but that is how it is. Much Love
Wow you really thought you were cooking? Then you had to get real racist, real fast and sexist. Pathetic
This is one of the most logical and sensible takes I've seen so far. The "easy alternative" is exactly what I think too. It's such a no-brainer. So then, why were GW willing to dive head-first into such an inevitable shitstorm? My guess is the decision was made over money, and they were forced to do it in that weird way and eat the potential fallout. That's also why I'm inclined to believe the alleged rumor that it was done to appease the creative demands of Amazon execs as it seems that's the biggest thing they got going on right now.
i truly love this hobby (i like One Page Rules, actual rules and business practices alot more) but i love the setting and the people i know who actually play this are engineers, doctors, and burger flippers in equal measure and none of them have ever been so hostile to any group of people. i dont want this special thing to become a place full of hateful extremists who think that no one elase is allowed to enjoy a hobby because they don't believe exactly like there particular group. you cant beat hate with hate, nor can you beat ignorance with ignorance. much love!
You underestimate the depths of human depravity. @@DorknessInc.
@@monkeyboimehoimenoi8395 i truely dont i jsut want us to be better. i want our community to show that its better because it is. much love!
This is all nonsens. This lore is 35 years old. The whole Gender idothy made it from the deepest pits of left wing extremist perversion into public awareness like 10 years ago and is broadly rejected by everyone with halve a brain. You do not have to think about your lore from the view point of a handful of extremists only because the extremists demand it. And you have to debate it if it makes sense or not. The lore says it does not, end of story.
So the problem here is that the lore used to say necrons were terminators, that centuerions' war suits didn't exist, and that the Primarchs were not a thing. That is all the Lore, and it was the lore, then it changed. End of story? and as of right now, the lore says that there were always female custodians, so the lore says it does end of the story? You're correct, the extremists had no rightful place in our community. We, as a community, should have taken better care of those who felt excluded. Unfortunately, we didn't, and it provided an opening for these individuals. The 35 years of GW have said a lot of things. The lore has never made sense. The whole thing is an example of "jumping the shark," but if you want "woke" out of our community, then we can't beat them with hate and ignorance because that is their weapon of choice. Woke originally was just a way to help people feel that it was a good idea; the problem was and is that predators used it as a way to make money, abuse power, and repress and control people. and make no mistake the "right" is JUST as bad. Ignore Extremists. Be better be in the middle. much love
@@DorknessInc. You are by the way very wrong with woke. It was never to help people. It is called identity politics and it devides the population in victims and perpetrators. It is the worst you can do to a society an it is the politics that lead to all the horrors of the socialist and communist states of the 20th century. This is never about helping people, it is allways divide, win and stay in power.
I agree with many of the things you said. However its not a great argument to mutate female biology to the point of being equal to custodes or even astartes, there has to be some sort of limit to the fictional science. At that point it makes more sense science fiction wise to completely gender re-assign the child before it is even born to produce more males. The physical limit of the what the SPECIES is capable of would be a genetically modified male in power armor. Saying 1 percent difference between male and female is nonsense if you look any sort of metrics for weight, bone density, height, and athletic competition. It doesn't make sense to put females through the space marine trials, for the same reason there are no female navy seals in real life. Pretty much all the space marine trials are considerably anti-female. In the lore iron warriors mutate females to be breeding machines for chaos rather than mutated to wear the power armor. I think you are reaching way too far to say its sexist and its wrong to say its based on nothing. Although I'm sure there are a lot weirdos making sexist arguments. If it is generally accepted without question that have I can have a 9 foot tall female custodes, then how come I cant have 15 or 20 foot tall male custodes, what is the limit? If we take your argument and say they arent gendered then they damn sure arent female...so who is this appealing to? whats the point of those mental gymnastics? why would females care or want to have representation in hulking male monsters so badly anyway? I dont look at the Tyranids and think - "oh they dont represent ME or what i look like so i cant play as them." I'll concede that this is fantasy and there can be exceptions, we can write this stuff in areas such as the missing second legion....but are we just gonna make the Emperor have no gender next, what the hell is the point of that? There is already a ton of well written examples of good female characters being equal to or more powerful than men. There is a ton of areas for inclusivity already. I appreciate your video.
To be fair, if you say Astartes aren't truly gendered anymore then there also aren't any males. I think what female space marine advocates want is for girls to be able to become them, not for Astartes to be feminine. With regards to sexually dimorphic traits - that all starts during puberty, and many space marine recruits are taken as prepubescent 8 year olds and then go through augmentation instead of puberty. Obviously Space Wolves with their canis helix that lets them recruit 20 year olds are a bit different.
Greetings. Thank you for taking the time to write such an in-depth comment. Let me offer some thoughts on what you have written here. First, some valid points here need to be acknowledged. Let me start with the fact that fiction must be limited. Suspension of disbelief is vital to telling a story. You're right. There has to be a balance. As a rhetorical question, let me ask why this is the line for you. Why does gender identity matter? As you said, mental gymnastics, if it doesn't matter and a group would be happier differently, why not just do it the way that makes people happier with it? This is a double-edged way of thinking, and it can sometimes have our personal biases. I would deposit that the thought of a mutant male is ok, but a mutant female is not. It may show that you are biased toward men getting the power and the status that comes with this setting marines. Please note that it is ok to have biases, but it's essential to be aware of them. As far as how far is too far, we have indeed jumped the shark at this point, my friend. And it happened LONG before this point. Please remember that despite what some "lore masters" would say about upholding the honor of the setting and how the basics haven't changed, EVERYTHING has changed. Even the Primarchs are a massive retcon. The Necrons are a wild retcon that we just all glossed over. And sci-fi has gone too far, the hive cities functioning at all, the dark elder at all, the Votan Leagues magic "we have been here in the middle the whole time surprise, and we clone ourselves," anything to do with chaos, and the plot armor that is The Emperor, who let me reiterate is not MALE the Emperor isn't male because the Emperor isn't HUMAN, that THING is a manifestation of psychic might that takes the body that suits it the best. But it is hard to write a good story that is easy to read if the pronouns are all over the place, so it is easier to read if it is HE. Moving on from the limits of fiction, if we are going to analyze the differences between men and women in terms of potential, we need a scientist specializing in biology because it is super complicated. We will not get it right here without much-unbiased research. The peak humans pushed to the extremes wouldn't matter what gender they had, and it's a limit of the human. Keeping in mind that most space marines are taken as children and conditioned, it is, in my opinion, sighted to think that only male children would work. There are conditions where kids don't easily fit into categories for gender. To my horror, an insurance specialist informed me that most large hospitals have an entire guidebook for doctors to decide which of the genitals of a child are "more developed" and remove or sew up the others. It is so common that the insurance doesn't even blink when it comes up. Sidebar about Navy seals: as of 2021, the first woman successfully completed the training to become a Seal www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/first-woman-completes-navy-special-warfare-training-n1274125 And even if we are going to go with the "women are inferior" argument you're putting forward here, it doesn't matter if they are still human. They can still be augmented. Cawl is literally making "better" marines in army sizes with "magic." If that is ok, then there is no reason this isn't, other than it supports the idea that men are better. Also, I would point out that mental toughness is the more important aspect, and nothing says there is a significant difference between males and females. There is no limit to how tall a custody can be. The face we accept 9ft tall if fucking ridiculous. To even entertain that a body like that could function is silly. But this comes back to the biases I mentioned: why is female custody as ridiculous to you as 20ft custody? I am not telling you that your opinion is wrong. If that is our opinion, then so be it, but take a step back and evaluate our biases and where they stem from. Suppose we argue that the superhumans don't have a gender. In that case, we acknowledge that this setting has superhumanoid monsters that look like humans, and a casual glance at chaos would provide some insight into the popularity of inhuman monsters that look humanoid. Or the Dark Eldar, for that matter. Females, from those I asked, want hulking monster representatives for the same reason men do. They're fantastic, they kick ass, there the best of the best. They are a human-like allegory for people to lose themselves in the fantasy of and live vicariously through. Why do YOU want them to be male? It's the same reason: they're fantastic, and they're depicted in the best ways with the most resources from the publishers put into them. First off, if you don't see a little of yourself in the Red Terror, then idk man, that is a personal problem. Me, that thing is my avatar (RT for prez 2024, let's retake Marrow) (god, that is an obscure old reference from an old Tyrinid book; shout out if you get it), but now you're saying that a woman wanting the factual best of the best that is based on humans, to have a female character is as ridiculous as seeing yourself in an unfeeling monster that only lives to feed. This is a jump. I am not asking you to change your mind, but consider what makes you feel that way. Lastly, the "point" of de-gendering the Emperor would be to acknowledge that magical immortal space shamans that may or may not be gods in their own right…are men… because they are not…lol. If a creature can freely change its gender at will for any length of time, it doesn't have a gender; it just has a preference in bodies for a while. (yes, mystique from Xman counts; she is not bound by gender unless she chooses to be there, for she fits this example.) and honestly, the Emperor can identify as "he 😊" wants that's the advantage of that ability. But that's not our decision as fans. Lastly, when the best writer(arguably) in black library says, "We always wanted there to be female custodies, but there was no plan for them to have models, so we weren't allowed to," that should be a pretty clear sign, this shouldn't have been a thing, they should exist, the literal architect of war hammer had them in mind. (Abnett, I believe) Look, I genuinely appreciate your comment and that you took the time to write it out, and I hope that my tone comes off as respectful and playful. I hope that you have something to consider. Yes, I have considered your arguments here as well. We don't have to agree to respect each other. Much love! Obviously, I put some thought into my answer, but as I was spell-checking (because my spelling is awful), I missed a point I wanted to bring up. The Iron Warriors, the evil bad guys, the inhuman monsters, think that women are nothing but breeding cattle for space marines and that their only value is to make men….I want you to think about that for a moment because if your beliefs line up with Nazies…or the truly evil people… then it might be time to look at our thoughts objectively…:D I am only kidding; I am not implying anything, but I do want to point out that your statements here align with the Iron Warriors way of thinking of women's potential…and that's worth a thought.
@@im2randomghgh I know you're not arguing that all differences in sex occur after the age of 8 because thats not right at all... still I am having trouble finding examples where recruits are younger than 10...the lore is written as "geneseed zygotes are keyed to male hormones and genetic structure", if we change the lore and we do science fiction augmentation to fully ignore or change the genetic code of aspirants arent we just making boys then? But If ignore all that and I say we were to write in a Mulan character that disguises themselves as an 8 year old boy and then still miraculously survives the trials and augmentation, we want that character to look the same as every other space marine too? Are they even female at that stage? All and all it seems like a lot of unfavorable hoops to jump through to not only make 0 dollars but also lose a lot of money. As I understand, this was the original reason that female space marine idea didnt make it far in the first place. Like I said I think the second and 11th legions could maybe give more room to play around with this idea, maybe as a lost technology before the heresy. But if people start unironically saying Female ultramarines or custodes then you've lost me.
@DorknessInc I would just like to add that while reading your argument, there were a couple of biases I think you need to step back and evaluate. Also, about being on the side of the nazis which is a weird passive aggressive ad hominem attack on the original commenter; it's a GRIMDARK universe. This isn't a morally equal, inclusive, fantasy world. To take a moral argument and say that someone is wrong to support it for a GRIMDARK setting... it's just an idiotic argument. Chaos isn't a OMG I'm the BAD GUY 😢 type of feeling. This is the type of stuff that makes the Hellldivers franchise much more desirable than people-pleasing companies like GW and the franchises they have creative control over
@asdfghjkl3669 I apologize in advance. I simply don’t have time to give the sequence of comments time that it deserves, but I do want to clear up the Nazi thing. I’m not calling anyone a Nazi, but if you’ve ever found yourself agreeing with a group of people who are truly evil, the best example of in the real world being Nazis , you need to reevaluate what you’re saying and I’ve been there. I’ve had beliefs and had a Neo Nazi Repeat my belief verbatim and had to sit back and go OK it’s time to look real hard at what it is. I believe and see if I’m missing something I am very aware my bias I’m not telling you I’m wrong I’m attempting to offer a point of view that I don’t feel like he’s being represented in this current argument not between you and I but in the hobbie sphere. Much love
If you're interested in 40k because you like the setting, characters, ect, then welcome. We hope you have fun. If you're interested in 40k because you see things you'd like to change, don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. GATEKEEP it or lose it. Those are our options.
Thank you for the comment. I can’t imagine a scenario where thouse are our only options. Like there must be a better answer than this. Like why can’t there be a middle, why can’t I love the setting and the characters and also be open to new things. Really games workshops is built on changes and retcons. Like if you think that the “woke” are so powerful then shouldent you be looking for reasonable ways to allow a public company to exist. Cause the reality is that if games work shop dosent get a way to exisist that is more open then they will fail. While we can all hoot and holler business is business and the “woke” concerns are real. Here is a hot take if this hobby has become so polluted with “us or nothing“ and so inaccessible to new people that they have to be threatened to enjoy the hobby the way you do or they shouldn’t be allowed to enjoy it at all then this hobby doesn’t deserve to survive. If this hobby can only survive in a space where it’s done exactly the way one group wants then we really have become no better than the woke people you guys are so worried about and if you’re no better than you don’t deserve to succeeded anymore than they do. There is a middle ground here it dosent have to be us or them, my way or gtfo. And please understand that the gtfo my way attitude ends in our hobbie being like Star Wars. You cannot fight HATE with HATE You cannot fight Bigotry with Bigotry I know your better then that and I send you all my love.
@@DorknessInc. Why do you want to change decades long established lore to resemble current day trivial politics? Can you not see that it does nothing but water down the setting? There are entire female only factions already. Every race is represented, and always has been. The Imperium is in no way "tolerant". There's nothing even remotely resembling human rights or even mercy. They are xenophobic and authoritarian to the extreme. Alien? Kill it. Mutant? Kill it. Have a different perspective on imperial doctrine? You're going to be lobotomized, decimated, and made into a mindless servitor. The Imperium of Man doesn't care about your race or gender, as whatever you are, you're just meat for the grinder. Why? Because every other race will not hesitate in wiping out humanity in an instant, given the chance. That's why it's "grimdark", why I was interested in it in the first place, and that's why we, the actual fans, will not stand by as casuals try to change a beloved setting just to try to virtue signal.
@@DorknessInc.I get what you’re saying but they’re doing it in such a dumb way. Even the example you give fells like some gender bendy bullshit. I think the best way the could have done it was just say “there are experiments with females custodies. They have failed but we are making progress..” then in a few months make a few fake updates about their experiments working with a female being injected with straight testosterone.
@@DorknessInc. I left a 5 paragraph reply, but it seems KZread removed it. That's one reason to fight this "progressive" mob alone. 40k is not "modern day". If you insert today's trivial politics into it, the setting will suffer. The Imperium is not "tolerant". The Imperium doesn't care about your race or sex, as you are just meat for the grinder. There are whole female factions already. As long as it's not alien or mutant, it will be made to be of use, even if it's only as a mindless servitor. Every race is represented, and always has been in the unending nightmare that is 40k. That's why it's "grimdark", that's what first attracted me to the genre, and why I have spent multiple thousands of dollars over three decades on miniatures, codexs, ect. The people pushing this will buy nothing from GM. You know it. I know it. Even GM knows this, deep down. There's no room for rainbows, unicorns, and cute fuzzy kittens in this setting. Why should lore that has stood for decades be abandoned for what is little more than a corporate virtue signal?
People are free to enjoy it for what it is but arbitrary changes to suit the tastes of people with no investment in the hobby or the setting will eventually leave it ruined or unrecognizable. 40k as a setting is massive in scope; realistically it has "representation" all over the setting for almost any taste or interest. Instead of newcomers expecting things be arbitrarily altered and changed to suit their tastes and interests they should be exploring the setting and finding something that piques that curiosity. If nothing does, that's fine too. Everything doesn't have to be made for absolutely everyone. If you do this there will never be any quirks or distinctions that make settings unique or interesting.
This change isn't about diversity, like that's something noble or desirable anyway, it's about destroying something that men love and identity with in the name of marxism. Trying to empathize with or negotiate with these cultural assassins is like empathizing with cancer. Should you allow tumors to grow in your body to be inclusive towards cancer? Get behind me, satan....
ok, so this is the kind of extremist that is going to be the end of this community. if you really feel this way, then you have already checked out. i would say, I hope that ur wrong and one day you can return to the hobby, you will be missed. for the record, this anti-woke extremist is just as flawed as the extremist woke arguments. Marxism studies the flaws in capitalism, focusing on the relationship between workers and means of production. In theory, communism works fine, it's the corruption of people that ruins it, the same as capitalism. And that socialism that you are against (I assume from your use of Marxism as the destruction of men's passions) unless you are taking a college-level class by an unbiased education system, then you only likely don't understand this term as well as you think you do. Marxism, communism, and socialism are buzz words nowadays used by political entities to divide people. I hope with all my being that you find a way back to the hobbie good luck and if not then maybe I will see you in OPR.
Damn tourists.
always buying our stuff, and keeping businesses open :)
I'm not sure I agree with your terms regarding Custodes and Astartes being so far beyond humans that gender doesn't matter... that's not really the point. These characters have to be drawn or referred to, or named etc. Gender plays a part in that. The lore is well established on this matter. The point is that Amazon demanded a powerful, power armour wearing woman be in their upcoming show. Not Sisters of Battle or Silence, though as they are religious and icky. Also no Inquisitors as she has to be a girlboss out of the power armour. The Astartes are explicitly written to be male and it's impossible for a female to become one. The Custodes are a bit more vague, but as others have pointed out, there is evidence to show they are all male and there has never ever been a female custodes mentioned in the lore before. Are the fans gatekeeping? Yes. Not from women, or people who aren't straight or anything like what the media is trying to strawman, but we're gatekeeping against people who want to destroy our hobby. It's nothing new - people have been trying to do it for decades but now it finally seems that there is a crack showing. That's why people are upset. I understand the other side's point of view, I just don't agree with it. They are trying to change something they don't like. I'd argue that this hobby is already very inclusive and has plenty of representation for anyone. If that's not good enough for you, find another hobby. Don't destroy ours. I'm tired of playing devil's advocate for these people. They ruined our TV shows and movies with this crap, our video games, our comics, our fairytales - now they want to infest our board games - seriously, enough is enough. Zero room should be given to these people. Not an inch. Don't like the hobby as it is? GTFO. You don't see us demanding that Snow White should have more miniguns in it, do you? No. It's just not for us and that's okay. Just a correction for you - you said there are 30+ books of lore. There are actually over 200. The lore has been established over 30 years, that's probably what you meant to say.
Greetings, thank you for the lengthy response and thoughts, So let me start with this: everything that is Warhammer is negotiable and revisable. And what I mean by that is that everything in the current Lore results from retcons and revisions. As you mentioned, 30 years and hundreds of books suggest that many people have shaped this Lore. The idea that "it's horrible for a female to become a space marine" is silly. And I support that stance by saying this. In this universe, we have the following things: magic space travel through hell, space monkies that are artificers and unparallel engineers, we have hive worlds that don't collapse on themselves, and a magic space corpse being fed magic people to keep other hell magics from popping in, and there are magical space knights that are secretly made and able to battle the magic hell demons but are somehow still human, space ork fungus people that eat meat and drink while simultaneously asexually reprocessing, we have magic space fish people whom time skipped and let us not forget magical space Egyptian skeletons made of metal with magical plant erasing maps, we have Fabius Bile and Belisarius Cawl playing who can make the most miniature human. And all of this is ok, no problems, no matter how much "classic" Lore disputes it. But we are drawing the line at "girls can be super soldiers" I disagree. Now, as a second conversation, the Amazon Prime request for a change is a terrible way to do business and is invariant for bad faith stories. The writers at the Black Library have wanted to do female Custodies, so that says a lot. All Games Workshop has been cultured based on models produced by GW; ever since the chapterhouse lawsuit, that has been normal. That has had more power in our Lore than anything else. If it upsets you that GW did this in bad faith and gaslit, those are valuable, valid complaints, but to argue that this Lore is set in stone is willfully ignoring that retcon is GW's favorite way to do business. This hobby isn't just "ours." It's a hobby for anyone who wants it, and I have known people who do want female spacemarines, cause space marines are the poster children for this, and no one I have ever met feels like sisters(either) are on the same level as the marines. Regarding gatekeeping, what gives us the right to tell other people they can't be involved? Yes, there has been a huge quality gap recently, but I believe this backlash has more to do with predator groups like Sweet Baby Inc., who are fearmongering to make money. Keep that last bit in mind. It's the money. And if you want less of it, hold them to task and don't spend your money. It will change as these predators get called out. To say that "it has to be this way, it's ours" is selfish and foolish. This hobby was never ours, and we were a part of it. As far as snowwhite with guns, that's also kind of a short-sighted comparison. IIRC, the "everyone considered" folks went after them, too. And here is the thing I think gets lost by extremists: some people don't like being called midgets (what the snowwhite one was about). Some people feel like they aren't welcome because there are only subpar factions for them to see themselves (space marines vs. sisters, there is no fair comparison for how much lore/attention/money/effort) and giving them some heroes to see themselves isn't inherently wrong. We should be the example of how to bring people in and let them find representation, and when the "woke" came, we wouldn't have something for them to point at and say, "Look at that," and have a point. The male-only thing doesn't affect most people who play this because they are male, and it's irrelevant to them. The people it would affect won't play because there is no place for them. IDK about all of you, but men-only hobby shops of old tend to be filled with shit people who smell bad and are fucking rude. The last decade or two have been a breath of (literal) fresh air. Also, Having thoughts in a vacuum breeds the worst of human nature. Hobbies are for everyone, and the "eye of the woke" shouldn't control how we feel, good or bad. As a final note, yes, I am aware of the vast black library, but I did not know how many there are off-hand, and 30 is a manageable number to reference. However, many of the older books are retconned out anyway. Thank you for your time and efforts-much love.
If sex didn't matter, the Emperor would have made female Custodes and Space Marines.
@@clanpsi thank you for commenting, there are a few things about this argument that merit discussion, mostly that GW decided what the Emperor did, and then they changed it so he made primarchs. its an evouling universe lead by the black library writers, and the eternal chasing of the almighty dollar. so I mean if we are going by what the emperor said then we need to make some major changes and get these weird primarach out. just a thought really what dose it matter. if the lore is done well what difference dose it make. and as an acknowledgment, it was and is never ours its GW's we just support it. much love!
Hi i like how you try to find a middle ground in this scenario, thou i gotta admit that that might also be wrong. Cause if you change the custodes either from rectonincg the past or introducing them in the future, it effects also different groups. Such as the Space Marines, Sisters of Battles, Primarch and even the emporer himself. He decided to make the custodes male and if you try to sell it that he made a mistake or needs to reverty on a previous decision, i think thats a tough pill to swallow. What pisses me off is that peapole think there is a need for more inclusion. If you know Warhammer 40k than you know that the mayority of groups within the imperium isn't genderlocked. Only 5 groups are, Space MArines, Custodes, Sisters of Battle, Sister of Silence and the Primarchs.
Ok absolutely fair points, sisters of battle are a cool faction, the problem with space marines being gender locked is because space marines are the poster child for this game and get the newest and best. And as my main offer gose there not human. But if you wanna play female badass super humans in walking power armor you “can’t” if you want to see a story that has a female protagonist that is an equal in threat or in power to a space marine your only choice is to go get a xeno and mat ward to retcon soem wild bs power spike. They aren’t human it dosent make sense to have gendered them. The emperor is a psychic being who reincarnated in multiple lives calling the emperor a “he” is a stretch. It’s more of a what. The primarchs are in the same boat there built beings that resemble humans. Not to mention the entire current setting can be boiled down to “the emperors greatest mistakes”. I just don’t want/like when people get caught up in this and become extremist and start touting “only men cause there the best, and this is all evil and the end of the world” like hold them to tsk but don’t let ursef loose sight of perspective. Gw is built on retcons, he’ll there was a time that the primarchs where a retcon. Anywho much love thank you for the comment
Only 5 of them and 2 of those are Female Only!
@@DorknessInc. Then write your own story and include. As a female who just got into Warhammer this change is really bad. I love the idea of a brotherhood and sisterhood. This middle ground thing dilutes and reduces the overall extremist vibe. Only the mediocre will enjoy something like that. No middle ground. Period.
@@DorknessInc. The SoB held their lines against FOUR chapters of marines including their MALE marine equivalent the Black templars, Fire Hawks, Soul Drinkers, and Imperial Fist and a large skitarii army prior to their official formation. They're already this powerful before they even were a galaxy spanning army in 41st millenium. They only need more written and canon feats! GW had only been lazy.
The middle ground is accepting that there are male-only factions and female-only factions.
Aside from the great arguments that inclusion is fine if done with integrity a point i haven't seen yet and both sides will deny is that men need a place to belong too and have something they can associate with just like this inclusion is attempting to do for women. You can be inclusive in the game without making everything homogenous that's what the factions are meant to be something for the different people who want to play because we all like different thing and feel connected to them for a number of reasons.
Thank you for taking the time to make a comment. I agree with this, everyone should have a space and men tend to get ignored in this aspect. But do you feel like both the super solider mutant space marines and the super solider elite custodian and the super shoulder elite space demon soldiers all need to be only men. The amount of money that’s put into space Marines dwarfs every other army in this game and that also happens to be one of the armies that has zero tolerance for females maybe we need somthing a little more is all I am purposing. There aren’t a lot of “men only” full factions, and there’s an argument there. Let me pose this thou, most of the characters we see(I am not researching this it’s anecdotal) are men, or masculine. So while we may lose a male only race, we still have a dominantly male character and model influence there’s still predominantly men or masculine in most of this setting. Most of these characters are still men, even if they spent the next few years making predominantly, female or feminine characters, we would still have a mostly male and masculine space, do we have the majority of characters? The majority of the models, scopes and stores be masculine and still have a masculine only army or three? Sister, I would count as an army that is more or less only women keeping in mind that they used to have a few male options as far as their characters and leadership went. I don’t know what the current generation of sisters uses. What calling sisters of silence anything other than a unit that custody players use because their stuff is expensive it’s kind of an overstatement. also make the argument that having a human race that is or race the human based that is “homogeneous” is kinda the norm, why we wouldn’t have it is weird this isn’t a sub faction that is for a micro niched audience. This is literally the poster, children and the better version of the people. I guess this needs to be brought up if we’re gonna have this conversation why is the super soldier best of the best thing that only had one sex wasn’t the magical poster boys with the very best of the very best that are supposed to represent the Apex of humans society or at least Apex human evolution and the ones that only have one gender. this hobby is predominantly older men. It doesn’t mean that it’s only it’s true that the audience of this game hasn’t changed in a long time. We haven’t exactly given a reason to. And if there is a push for stories that end up being bad or don’t have good characters then don’t buy them if they end up producing things that have subpar quality don’t buy them if they make models that have tits and you don’t want tits in your army don’t buy those models whether or not we have female custodians or not is not gonna change army or I would model it whether or not we have female space will not change how I would run or model my army. If I want my army to have tits they will have tits. Hold GW to task and don’t let them forget they did this with out sincerity and they did this for all the for the wrong reasons but don’t gate/badger the idea that some people might feel included. Much love
@@DorknessInc. Im not terribly invested in the gender of these characters just saddened by the lack of humanity that has appeared on both side with not real discussion just saying the other side hates them (or at least that's what the majority of content i see focuses on while using some statements to support their position but it feels secondary). Unfortunately that seems to sell the best and may just be an inherent trait of humans because it works so well at persuading people to your side and creating a unified group rather than scattered individuals. As for whether you should diversify the faction there are many logical arguments in and out of universe for and against and you'll never get the right answer, its like making 1 shirt to fit everyone its too big for some and to small for others. You could argue this shirt was made to fit group X but it then gets tailored to fit group Y a bit more, this tends to make a shirt that fits neither well and as with here a poor tailor does a rough job so it fits evens worse. You don't have to make one thing fit for everyone you need a range of luxury brands that everyone will say wow at. Id say more effort in stuff like sisters of battle or silence and less on the ultra smurfs is the way to go and this has been a major complaint at GW for years abandoning many factions in favour of another space marine codex. They design the posters so can't blame people for their poor marketing. As for apex humans, who is better the white scars or the imperial fist? How about better with flame tactics sisters or Salamanders? They can be the best but in different ways it just requires smart writing and a gentle hand because no matter what you do it's a fine line between a strong character and a Mary/Gary sue. Please bear in mind this is just my thoughts and I'm not 100% on any stance but thought id comment as its one of the few more neutral stances I've seen.
@@FragMaster93 i am so happy to see this response. more then anything want to promote people refusing the extremists stances. feel how u feel, be passionate, but please be better then these extremists ass-hat's. i appreciate you!
Now explain Sisters of Battle and Sisters of Silence. Who do they represent? Anyways, I'll explain the "inclusion": Fans: Cavill will safeguard the lore!! Amazon\Blackrock: GW, put women in the Custodes ... now GW: yes masta, women were always in the Custodes.
Thank you for taking the time to make a comment so allow me to offer you this as an opinion for the sisters of battle and the sisters of silence. If you’re familiar with the American Boy Scouts, this is very similar. The sisters a battle are the equivalent of the Girl Scouts in the American culture for Boy Scouts on the surface it looks like they’re equal same thing right even in the name. But if you look at it a little bit bit closer, which I wouldn’t have known, if if it hadn’t come up in my own life, what you will find is that only Boy Scouts get opportunities to go and visit Presidents and there are plethora of opportunities afforded to Boy Scouts exclusively, both due to the age of the organization and the cultural zeitgeist. I love the sisters battle. They’re awesome battle nuns. It’s a very cool idea and I 100% agree the reason that games workshops core reason to do this is embedded in politics and the fact that they are public trading company and they should be held accountable for that What I’m saying is that we as fans should be avoiding extremism and finding ways to help people who want to feel included this way Sister of silence it’s a neat idea, but I’ve never seen anyone who felt like magic void women were as interesting or as cool as super magic top of the top custodians. Again, I would point out even if the reason that they did this was super insincere. It doesn’t mean that the outcome Hass to be bad or that this particular group of arguments Hass to be extremist, even though their reasoning is so deeply flawed it doesn’t mean that we have to run around screaming at the top of our lungs about how everything is Unacceptable because women shouldn’t be allowed to be superhuman monsters too. Hold them accountable without being an extremist and don’t let the idea that girls might want to be cool super mutant monster interfere with your idea of the game. Much love
We LOVE it
Thank you!! I used this model as a template to make the undead hydra from marvel zombies into this same scheme.
@@DorknessInc. Niiiiiiiiiiiiiice!!
Looking forward on my first game with Saurian.
I am so excited to hear that. Please let us know how it goes and what ur thoughts are.
Congrats on getting something noone else can get as they’re outta stock
Sadly this is not from the new kit. GW don’t give a hoot about us. lol.
Ah, Nakamura - I pictured her more as a character than as a monser - but she fills both niches rather well.
So mechanically the difference between a monster and a character is only if they have the “hero” tag. Which only really effects if you join them to a unit. We did consider making her a hero but the idea of her with a unit that wasn’t like smaller spiders seemed off… especially as the hero benefits tend to be moral, and well…yah I don’t think she’s in the business of leading troops lol. Glad that you like her tho!
@@DorknessInc. So, I was picturing her with the Onna Musha female unit. Definitely more of a special hero than a standard hero. Maybe give her a special ability to either slow an enemy unit by webbing or drawing a unit closer.
@YeAuldGrump so I would encourage you to watch the monster mash video again, because she’s at the end of the video. We’ve already explained some of the special rules with some of the earlier entries so things like deadly pheromones, are explained earlier in the video so we didn’t explain it again during her entry. because I think that some of the things that you’re imagining her being able to do she can do the deadly pheromones let her move other people the web lets her surprise attack and ambush the silent assassin, makes it so that when she picks a target that target doesn’t have a good chance of surviving her own slot, especially if they didn’t see her before it started we didn’t give her the keyword because that has its own connotation to it and we wanted her to be more of a boss monster, and it glass canon but if you still feel like there’s something that she’s missing feel free to let us know cause we can always adjust her
I have both of those sets, looking forward to seeing how it plays. I do kind of wish that OPR had a way to generate special.characters - I can see varying this list by who and what their Master is. Who doesn't love a spider lady with a parasol?
The lack of a hero builder KILLS me. I loved that about GW games, like letting me unlock a simple thing for having a hero! The list is live now. So, if you want to look over it, you're welcome to. I don't have the Spider Queen cause I was already 18 units in. But I can keep her on the back burner and see if I can add her.
Their recent crowdfunder did introduce the first special characters for Age of Fantasy, with unique abilities. So, maybe, someday in the future.
Funny enough right before they announced that OPR was going to focus on lore and making hero’s that was my biggest criticism, I really love OPR and they way it is handled, so I want them to succeed. I think this is a fantastic start. And I think having one unique rule that gives a small advantage or buff is perfect. Obviously I would prefer the hero’s help strengthen a particular play style but this is a great starting point.
Hell yeah! Great model and great paint job!!!
Thank you for the love! Appreciate it.
Awesome 👏
Thank you!
WOW! THAT'S CRAZY, I LOVE IT
Appreciate it, thank you!
I wish Black Manta had a hero version, saw the zombie figure so was hoping to be able to play as him
Even if they don’t the community will. if you have not already you should join the Facebook groups. There are two I know of that do DCeased/marvel zombies and they both have great communities. Who was the hero you DID want most that you got?
@@DorknessInc. hero black manta, yeah I’ve been checking but not sure just where to exactly look
One group is called “zombicide Marvel and DCeased” the other is “marvel zombies/DCeased: a zombicide game” search for either on facebook and you will find them. Good luck!