The "fourth" in a trilogy? I don't understand this.
@ALK5 жыл бұрын
It's a phrase coined by Douglas Adams, in the series "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy". There are three operas by Monteverdi that suvive and are performed today: Orfeo (the favourite of Early Music ensembles for its exquisite concerted music), Poppea (the favourite of modern opera houses for its psychologically twisted plot), Ulisse (less often heard, but a wonderful piece). Monteverdi's own favourite was Arianna, which does not survive. So this project was an academic and artistic exercise in re-making the lost "fourth opera". My use of Adams' phrase was designed to catch the eye, as paradoxical. I'm glad it worked for you!
@ginapostella26199 жыл бұрын
You talk about how much harp stick up behind the player, but what is your top note? Too many modern 'baroque harps' have a range that none of the surviving instruments have... Makers put a top E for the Handel (because the players demand it, apparently) when that work is 100 years later than this style of harp and made for an English/Welsh style instrument. The Barbarini harp has, I read in an article in HHS Buliten) been increased in height in a way that makes it not string-working, but still only gives to a or b at the top (I don't remember clear without re-reading). The Bologna instrument has been too cut about to make definitive statements, and is made from 2 harps anyway, but as it stands it still does not have top e. If you make instruments based from real proportions, you do not have so much behind your head.
@ALK8 жыл бұрын
+Gina Postella Dear Gina, Thank you for your comment. The standard range of a large Italian triple harp (i.e. arpa doppia) around the year 1600 seems to have been GGG-d" (four and a half octaves). The solo in Monteverdi's Orfeo requires the low note (which corresponds to the standard bass range of the theorbo), and Trabaci's Toccata requires the entire range in its opening arpeggio. Yes, players sometimes ask for the one additional note required for the Handel concerto. Whilst not strictly historical, a single additional string does not significantly change the overall proportions or the general feel of playing the instrument. Yes, you are quite right that the Handel concerto was first played on an Anglo-Welsh instrument, which has quite a different shape. On that instrument (about 100 years later, indeed) not only is the high range greatly extended, but the change in shape makes the high and extreme-high treble much more accessible. See andrewlawrenceking.com/2014/03/12/the-triple-or-modern-welsh-harp/ The suggestion that the Barbarini harp was somehow "stretched" is not taken seriously by those with expertise in this area. If it was stretched, that only goes to show that a large harp was wanted, as we see from other surviving large instruments and iconography. However, it is indeed true that a' or b' is the top end of what is required in 99% of the repertoire. That's why the historical playing position for a large harp, with the extreme treble behind your head, is practicable. The huge advantage of that historical playing position is that it allows the left hand to play pres de la table even in the extreme bass, giving strength and clarity to the bass notes. Again, this corresponds to the theorbo: surviving theorbos show marks from the player's finger, proving that the strings were plucked at the extreme end. This position for theorbo-playing is supported by period iconography. Period iconography also supports the "lots behind your head" position for Italian baroque triple harp. Probably the two most famous paintings are Lanfranco's Allegory of Music, showing the Barberini harp www.wga.hu/art/l/lanfranc/1/allegory.jpg and Domenichino's King David s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/06/6b/84/066b844bae1662413c3f56d12ee19728.jpg (the inspiration for Rainer Thurau's medium-size "Domenichino" and large "Zampieiri" models). The "lots behind your head" position might well seem strange at first, especially if the player is working backwards from experience with later harps. But it is supported by iconography, by comparisons to theorbo, and by practicality. In particular, it makes perfect sense when the player spends most of their time (as historical players did) playing continuo. Katerina and I have 4 Italian triples between us, all by Thurau. The small one is intended as a practical instrument suited for travelling: it goes to high eb in the treble, but the bass stops at CC. The small size means that the trebles are not behind your head, even when the bass end of the harp is brought close in for continuo-playing. We see smaller harps of these proportions also around 1700, and it is plausible that repertoire similar to the Handel concerto would have been played on them. The medium-size instrument has the standard circa-1600 compass of GGG-d". One of the large instruments has an extended bass, FFF-d", by analogy with theorbo tunings with extreme low notes. The other has FFF-eb, to offer the option of playing the Handel concerto (just as you suggest). When you bring the bass-end of these harps close to the body for optimal continuo-playing (i.e. the historical position), there is indeed 'lots behind your head'. The additional bass note works superbly well. The additional treble string requires a small adjustment to the geometry, which works ok, but my personal preference is the historical high-d" set-up, whenever possible. Finally, it's worth considering WHY players ask for the high e"b on a large circa-1600 Italian triple. I agree that this extra string is not really historical. But not every player can commit the budget required to purchase a large circa-1600 Italian triple AND a large circa-1700 Anglo-Welsh triple. Even if both harps are available, a mixed program, or a long tour with different programs might require a single instrument to be used for both repertoires: transporting one large baroque harp is tough, transporting two is crazy! My Anglo-Welsh triple is set up for A415, and cannot be tuned up to A440. If I am asked to play Handel at A440 (for a mixed program or with a modern orchestra), I use the Italian triple. Here, non-historical requirements (mixed programs, modern bands, long tours etc) force certain compromises. But yes, I agree: in an ideal world, we would all play Monteverdi on an Italian instrument (up to d") in the historical "lots behind your head" position, and Handel on an Anglo-Welsh instrument (going well above e"b) in the historical "easy treble" position, or (not reconstructing the original performance, but following period practice in general) on a smaller instrument, which similarly gives easy access to the treble. Historical evidence shows us two different types of harp, and two different playing positions. Anglo-Welsh with "Easy treble" circa 1700 and Italian with "lots behind your head" circa 1600. Vive la difference!
@ginapostella26198 жыл бұрын
The Harp Consort & Il Corago The Xrays of the Barberini show quite clearly that the harp has been extended, and it could not, according to the laws of physics, be stringed to tension as it stands. Th Lanfranco painting shows an instrument of very different proportions and disposition to th standing instrument, and I don't know any players who play with the harp slanting forwards, so I feel you cannot use this to illustrate historical technique. The Zampieri David, f you stand up the figure, would be shorter than the player... but then he also paints with the player dancing with a harp... is that a historically viable position too? His standing saint plays a small harp.. and th Nuvolone player has no harp behind her head... or did th artist get this wrong? If you wih to play for convenience, fine, but please be honest, and say that is why....
@ALK8 жыл бұрын
Dear Gina, Thank you for rejoining this debate. The suggestion that the Barberini harp has been extended is controversial. This theory is not accepted by some of our leading harp-makers. Are you able to make the article by Mike Parker openly available, so that his arguments may be considered in full? My understanding is that the X-rays show evidence of some jointing, which has to be interpreted, as a repair, as 'extension' or as part of the construction. Let's share the evidence and let everyone think about it together. If you wish to argue "according to the laws of physics", then it would be good to submit scientific arguments: an engineering analysis of string materials, pitches, tension, angles and the estimated breaking strength of the wood would be a good start. Again, it would be good to see proper academic support for this bold statement of your opinion. As an applied maths MA, I look forward to seeing the calculations... It is generally accepted that the Lanfranco painting is an artistic representation of the surviving instrument. Again, please share any academic evidence you have to the contrary. My replies so far are characteristic of the scientific practice of Peer Review. Controversial theories are tested by presenting them, with supporting evidence, for everyone to consider. I accept that the consensus view can sometimes be mistaken - after all, that is how science advances, when one researcher demonstrates convincingly and with supporting evidence that the previous consensus was flawed. So my challenge to you to produce evidence, is offered in that spirit of proper scientific scepticism. I have tried the slanting forwards position myself, and I routinely invite students to try it for themselves too. It is not my usual playing position, but I do use it sometimes. I agree that this position is at one extreme of the spectrum of historical options, but I do not rule it out. Of course, the fact that until now, you did not know that modern players are using this position does not tell us anything about the historical situation. I agree with your analysis of the Zampieri King David painting. The player is indeed a big guy, but he sits very low to the harp, with a lot of harp sticking out behind his head. That is precisely the point I wish to make in this video: the typical Italian posture with a large harp is to sit low with the harp high. I have tried dancing with the harp, with small Italian arpa doppia. It works - it certainly isn't easy, and both musical and choreographic possibilities are limited, but it does work. So, yes, I think that's a historically viable position. There are many other historical images of players dancing with their instruments. This position, and the leaning forward position, both depend on having the hands resting on the soundboard. That element of historical technique is supported by the evidence of surviving instruments that show wear marks from the players' hands. The Nuvolone picture www.wga.hu/art/n/nuvolone/carlofra/family.jpg shows the harp in a very upright position, as I recommend in my teaching and as I practice myself. The player's wrists are resting on the instrument, in the pres de la table position that I use and teach. I agree that the harp does not extend especially far behind the player's head - I would place this image at the opposite end of the historical spectrum from the Lanfranco. I cannot accept your suggestion that I ignore historical evidence for the sake of convenience. On the contrary, I've spent all my career grappling with awkward historical facts, trying to understand how they make sense in practice, and resisting the temptation to take the easy way out by doing what everyone else does! Most modern players of large Italian triple harp lean the harp backwards quite a lot, for the sake of convenience in playing the high notes. As you already reminded us, those high notes are not really so important: the essential range is as far as a' (at the top of the treble clef). I argue that the spectrum of historical positions shown in the images under discussion might not be convenient for the extreme treble, but facilitate a pres de la table position optimised for continuo-playing. Surviving instruments and the parallel to the theorbo provide supporting evidence for this argument. So in all honesty, I model my playing on this historical evidence, and I teach to my students the same technique that I use myself. My academic position is wholly consistent with my professional practice. Indeed, I recently published a blog article entitled "Practice what your Preach". andrewlawrenceking.com/2015/12/09/practise-what-you-preach-connecting-research-rehearsal-performance/ Gina, I'm delighted to engage with you in this debate. Let's continue, at the highest standards of academic rigour, practical experience and professional courtesy that we can muster!
@ALK9 жыл бұрын
If you practise an ornament 2 or 3 times a week, by the end of a month you’ll be ready to move on to the next one.
@vicenteharpantiqua9 жыл бұрын
Thanks Andrew, i remember this from one of your classes..very well detailed and explained. Quite a long time ago, while practicing some melodies , i came across the idea or concept of having "little stories" whitin one long phrasing. I realized that those little stories gave me not only the accents but also q varies of "landscapes" that openned up while playing after those melodies or little stories..which also express some kind of emotions linked to the landscapes...
@vicenteharpantiqua9 жыл бұрын
Excellent! Very interesting indeed...thanks!
@jcortese33009 жыл бұрын
That's wonderful! I've never heard one of those played by anyone who could really put it through its paces before -- it sounds fantastic!
@ArnoPeck9 жыл бұрын
Merry Christmas Andrew!
@nataliadanilina86529 жыл бұрын
Hmm, the link (but I don't think that it is actually is the link, just my best guess) that in the chant main character prayed for people, who were kind to him, and St. Nicholas was actually a Bishop, who did the same... I am wrong, am not I? :)
@ALK9 жыл бұрын
Lereena Danilina I'm sure that Santa Claus and Chaucer's clerk were both good people, but there is a better link....
@nataliadanilina86529 жыл бұрын
The Harp Consort & Il Corago Well, St. Nicholas was a patron of scholars and clerks... Am I on right track?)
@ALK9 жыл бұрын
Lereena Danilina Getting warmer... Actually, Chaucer's clerk was indeed a good person, in the Miller's Tale he is described as 'hende' = courteous, pleasant.
@dmitryponomareff72959 жыл бұрын
it's a riddle still and no any trace of Santa even after 2nd text reading but the sound is wonderful anyway))
@ALK9 жыл бұрын
Dmitry Ponomareff I'm glad you like it. The link to Santa is "hidden"....
@dmitryponomareff72959 жыл бұрын
The Harp Consort & Il Corago I hope you won't hide it longer than NY eve ))
@vicenteharpantiqua9 жыл бұрын
Excellent! Merry Christmas and "harping " new year ;)
@DJ4geodeath9 жыл бұрын
perfecto :) !
@DJ4geodeath9 жыл бұрын
wow :O !
@TomokoSugawaraHarpist9 жыл бұрын
Thanks for your generous suggestions. It is a most valuable video for Baroque harpists who study basso continuo.
@aroomofmIOwn9 жыл бұрын
Wow. Thanks so much; this was really helpful! Any chance you might make a couple of videos for spanish cross-strung harp as well?
@ALK9 жыл бұрын
Yes! At the moment we are working on the Irish, Italian and Continuo series, but Spanish and Single Action harp will be coming next.
Пікірлер
The "fourth" in a trilogy? I don't understand this.
It's a phrase coined by Douglas Adams, in the series "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy". There are three operas by Monteverdi that suvive and are performed today: Orfeo (the favourite of Early Music ensembles for its exquisite concerted music), Poppea (the favourite of modern opera houses for its psychologically twisted plot), Ulisse (less often heard, but a wonderful piece). Monteverdi's own favourite was Arianna, which does not survive. So this project was an academic and artistic exercise in re-making the lost "fourth opera". My use of Adams' phrase was designed to catch the eye, as paradoxical. I'm glad it worked for you!
You talk about how much harp stick up behind the player, but what is your top note? Too many modern 'baroque harps' have a range that none of the surviving instruments have... Makers put a top E for the Handel (because the players demand it, apparently) when that work is 100 years later than this style of harp and made for an English/Welsh style instrument. The Barbarini harp has, I read in an article in HHS Buliten) been increased in height in a way that makes it not string-working, but still only gives to a or b at the top (I don't remember clear without re-reading). The Bologna instrument has been too cut about to make definitive statements, and is made from 2 harps anyway, but as it stands it still does not have top e. If you make instruments based from real proportions, you do not have so much behind your head.
+Gina Postella Dear Gina, Thank you for your comment. The standard range of a large Italian triple harp (i.e. arpa doppia) around the year 1600 seems to have been GGG-d" (four and a half octaves). The solo in Monteverdi's Orfeo requires the low note (which corresponds to the standard bass range of the theorbo), and Trabaci's Toccata requires the entire range in its opening arpeggio. Yes, players sometimes ask for the one additional note required for the Handel concerto. Whilst not strictly historical, a single additional string does not significantly change the overall proportions or the general feel of playing the instrument. Yes, you are quite right that the Handel concerto was first played on an Anglo-Welsh instrument, which has quite a different shape. On that instrument (about 100 years later, indeed) not only is the high range greatly extended, but the change in shape makes the high and extreme-high treble much more accessible. See andrewlawrenceking.com/2014/03/12/the-triple-or-modern-welsh-harp/ The suggestion that the Barbarini harp was somehow "stretched" is not taken seriously by those with expertise in this area. If it was stretched, that only goes to show that a large harp was wanted, as we see from other surviving large instruments and iconography. However, it is indeed true that a' or b' is the top end of what is required in 99% of the repertoire. That's why the historical playing position for a large harp, with the extreme treble behind your head, is practicable. The huge advantage of that historical playing position is that it allows the left hand to play pres de la table even in the extreme bass, giving strength and clarity to the bass notes. Again, this corresponds to the theorbo: surviving theorbos show marks from the player's finger, proving that the strings were plucked at the extreme end. This position for theorbo-playing is supported by period iconography. Period iconography also supports the "lots behind your head" position for Italian baroque triple harp. Probably the two most famous paintings are Lanfranco's Allegory of Music, showing the Barberini harp www.wga.hu/art/l/lanfranc/1/allegory.jpg and Domenichino's King David s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/06/6b/84/066b844bae1662413c3f56d12ee19728.jpg (the inspiration for Rainer Thurau's medium-size "Domenichino" and large "Zampieiri" models). The "lots behind your head" position might well seem strange at first, especially if the player is working backwards from experience with later harps. But it is supported by iconography, by comparisons to theorbo, and by practicality. In particular, it makes perfect sense when the player spends most of their time (as historical players did) playing continuo. Katerina and I have 4 Italian triples between us, all by Thurau. The small one is intended as a practical instrument suited for travelling: it goes to high eb in the treble, but the bass stops at CC. The small size means that the trebles are not behind your head, even when the bass end of the harp is brought close in for continuo-playing. We see smaller harps of these proportions also around 1700, and it is plausible that repertoire similar to the Handel concerto would have been played on them. The medium-size instrument has the standard circa-1600 compass of GGG-d". One of the large instruments has an extended bass, FFF-d", by analogy with theorbo tunings with extreme low notes. The other has FFF-eb, to offer the option of playing the Handel concerto (just as you suggest). When you bring the bass-end of these harps close to the body for optimal continuo-playing (i.e. the historical position), there is indeed 'lots behind your head'. The additional bass note works superbly well. The additional treble string requires a small adjustment to the geometry, which works ok, but my personal preference is the historical high-d" set-up, whenever possible. Finally, it's worth considering WHY players ask for the high e"b on a large circa-1600 Italian triple. I agree that this extra string is not really historical. But not every player can commit the budget required to purchase a large circa-1600 Italian triple AND a large circa-1700 Anglo-Welsh triple. Even if both harps are available, a mixed program, or a long tour with different programs might require a single instrument to be used for both repertoires: transporting one large baroque harp is tough, transporting two is crazy! My Anglo-Welsh triple is set up for A415, and cannot be tuned up to A440. If I am asked to play Handel at A440 (for a mixed program or with a modern orchestra), I use the Italian triple. Here, non-historical requirements (mixed programs, modern bands, long tours etc) force certain compromises. But yes, I agree: in an ideal world, we would all play Monteverdi on an Italian instrument (up to d") in the historical "lots behind your head" position, and Handel on an Anglo-Welsh instrument (going well above e"b) in the historical "easy treble" position, or (not reconstructing the original performance, but following period practice in general) on a smaller instrument, which similarly gives easy access to the treble. Historical evidence shows us two different types of harp, and two different playing positions. Anglo-Welsh with "Easy treble" circa 1700 and Italian with "lots behind your head" circa 1600. Vive la difference!
The Harp Consort & Il Corago The Xrays of the Barberini show quite clearly that the harp has been extended, and it could not, according to the laws of physics, be stringed to tension as it stands. Th Lanfranco painting shows an instrument of very different proportions and disposition to th standing instrument, and I don't know any players who play with the harp slanting forwards, so I feel you cannot use this to illustrate historical technique. The Zampieri David, f you stand up the figure, would be shorter than the player... but then he also paints with the player dancing with a harp... is that a historically viable position too? His standing saint plays a small harp.. and th Nuvolone player has no harp behind her head... or did th artist get this wrong? If you wih to play for convenience, fine, but please be honest, and say that is why....
Dear Gina, Thank you for rejoining this debate. The suggestion that the Barberini harp has been extended is controversial. This theory is not accepted by some of our leading harp-makers. Are you able to make the article by Mike Parker openly available, so that his arguments may be considered in full? My understanding is that the X-rays show evidence of some jointing, which has to be interpreted, as a repair, as 'extension' or as part of the construction. Let's share the evidence and let everyone think about it together. If you wish to argue "according to the laws of physics", then it would be good to submit scientific arguments: an engineering analysis of string materials, pitches, tension, angles and the estimated breaking strength of the wood would be a good start. Again, it would be good to see proper academic support for this bold statement of your opinion. As an applied maths MA, I look forward to seeing the calculations... It is generally accepted that the Lanfranco painting is an artistic representation of the surviving instrument. Again, please share any academic evidence you have to the contrary. My replies so far are characteristic of the scientific practice of Peer Review. Controversial theories are tested by presenting them, with supporting evidence, for everyone to consider. I accept that the consensus view can sometimes be mistaken - after all, that is how science advances, when one researcher demonstrates convincingly and with supporting evidence that the previous consensus was flawed. So my challenge to you to produce evidence, is offered in that spirit of proper scientific scepticism. I have tried the slanting forwards position myself, and I routinely invite students to try it for themselves too. It is not my usual playing position, but I do use it sometimes. I agree that this position is at one extreme of the spectrum of historical options, but I do not rule it out. Of course, the fact that until now, you did not know that modern players are using this position does not tell us anything about the historical situation. I agree with your analysis of the Zampieri King David painting. The player is indeed a big guy, but he sits very low to the harp, with a lot of harp sticking out behind his head. That is precisely the point I wish to make in this video: the typical Italian posture with a large harp is to sit low with the harp high. I have tried dancing with the harp, with small Italian arpa doppia. It works - it certainly isn't easy, and both musical and choreographic possibilities are limited, but it does work. So, yes, I think that's a historically viable position. There are many other historical images of players dancing with their instruments. This position, and the leaning forward position, both depend on having the hands resting on the soundboard. That element of historical technique is supported by the evidence of surviving instruments that show wear marks from the players' hands. The Nuvolone picture www.wga.hu/art/n/nuvolone/carlofra/family.jpg shows the harp in a very upright position, as I recommend in my teaching and as I practice myself. The player's wrists are resting on the instrument, in the pres de la table position that I use and teach. I agree that the harp does not extend especially far behind the player's head - I would place this image at the opposite end of the historical spectrum from the Lanfranco. I cannot accept your suggestion that I ignore historical evidence for the sake of convenience. On the contrary, I've spent all my career grappling with awkward historical facts, trying to understand how they make sense in practice, and resisting the temptation to take the easy way out by doing what everyone else does! Most modern players of large Italian triple harp lean the harp backwards quite a lot, for the sake of convenience in playing the high notes. As you already reminded us, those high notes are not really so important: the essential range is as far as a' (at the top of the treble clef). I argue that the spectrum of historical positions shown in the images under discussion might not be convenient for the extreme treble, but facilitate a pres de la table position optimised for continuo-playing. Surviving instruments and the parallel to the theorbo provide supporting evidence for this argument. So in all honesty, I model my playing on this historical evidence, and I teach to my students the same technique that I use myself. My academic position is wholly consistent with my professional practice. Indeed, I recently published a blog article entitled "Practice what your Preach". andrewlawrenceking.com/2015/12/09/practise-what-you-preach-connecting-research-rehearsal-performance/ Gina, I'm delighted to engage with you in this debate. Let's continue, at the highest standards of academic rigour, practical experience and professional courtesy that we can muster!
If you practise an ornament 2 or 3 times a week, by the end of a month you’ll be ready to move on to the next one.
Thanks Andrew, i remember this from one of your classes..very well detailed and explained. Quite a long time ago, while practicing some melodies , i came across the idea or concept of having "little stories" whitin one long phrasing. I realized that those little stories gave me not only the accents but also q varies of "landscapes" that openned up while playing after those melodies or little stories..which also express some kind of emotions linked to the landscapes...
Excellent! Very interesting indeed...thanks!
That's wonderful! I've never heard one of those played by anyone who could really put it through its paces before -- it sounds fantastic!
Merry Christmas Andrew!
Hmm, the link (but I don't think that it is actually is the link, just my best guess) that in the chant main character prayed for people, who were kind to him, and St. Nicholas was actually a Bishop, who did the same... I am wrong, am not I? :)
Lereena Danilina I'm sure that Santa Claus and Chaucer's clerk were both good people, but there is a better link....
The Harp Consort & Il Corago Well, St. Nicholas was a patron of scholars and clerks... Am I on right track?)
Lereena Danilina Getting warmer... Actually, Chaucer's clerk was indeed a good person, in the Miller's Tale he is described as 'hende' = courteous, pleasant.
it's a riddle still and no any trace of Santa even after 2nd text reading but the sound is wonderful anyway))
Dmitry Ponomareff I'm glad you like it. The link to Santa is "hidden"....
The Harp Consort & Il Corago I hope you won't hide it longer than NY eve ))
Excellent! Merry Christmas and "harping " new year ;)
perfecto :) !
wow :O !
Thanks for your generous suggestions. It is a most valuable video for Baroque harpists who study basso continuo.
Wow. Thanks so much; this was really helpful! Any chance you might make a couple of videos for spanish cross-strung harp as well?
Yes! At the moment we are working on the Irish, Italian and Continuo series, but Spanish and Single Action harp will be coming next.