Hi and welcome to InFin8 Rowing!
We are a team of competitive masters rowers, and coaches, and its our aim to make everyone faster, more efficient, healthier, and happier rowers. We want to stimulate thought, and discussion, and share our beliefs and experience.
We don't follow a very traditional rowing style, and if we did, we would be adding little in the way of new value by talking about it, so even though some of our methodologies will be be considered unconventional, we have sound reasoning for why we believe in them. We don't always see eye-to-eye between us, so the fact that we have decided to go with a group discussion format, means that there will be some healthy variances in what we put out there.
We hope you subscribe and engage with us in the comments, and if you like what we are about we would love to have you as part of the tribe.
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Could you clarify what secondary front splash is and how that checks the boat?
Nice question Hans. As the blade enters the water it has the water rush against it, causing the "backsplash" behind the spoon. In front of the spoon it creates a small void. This fills up by the time the spoon has properly submerged, but if you get onto the power before this has happened then you end up trying to push against the void and the front of the spoon will splash when it hits the water on the other side. You will usually get a sound from this sort of entry too. The check comes from pushing with the blade not connected, which is the case when there is still air on the working side of the spoon.
Rolling the extraction out of the vortex is what i've learned intuitively at the beginning. In the meanwhile i've been teched both methods. But i realized that i have trouble with rolling out the blades when the water surface is wavy. In this cases i have very often problems with stucking in the water and catching crabs. When squaring the blade out i got a lot more stability in wavy conditions. That's why I'm currently undecided what is the best way to go. What is your experience in wavy conditions?
56 years and have never heard of it called the draw. must be a local word used for this.
I am sure there will be a few terms that I use that may not be the norm. I plan to do a vid on how to fix "jazz hands". This is what I call skying the blades. Hope you found the context useful though...
Great informative video
The blade has to be moving towards the stern as it’s placed. There would be an absolutely almighty boat stopping backsplash otherwise. The crucial thing is coordinating the timing and speed of entry and change of direction to get the right balance between too much backsplash and not enough.
Thanks Anthony. Practically, even the best placers of the blade, like Pierre Houin (who I used to illustrate this) has a slight sternward movement during the fraction of a second that the blade is submerging, but considering the blade is spearing in at the catch angle, I firmly believe that its like a swimmers arm... it stops the boat less than pressure on the foot plate would. I agree on the balance between too much and not enough though. When I coach people who row the blade in, I get them to develop a big back splash first, just to "unlearn" the desire to change direction too soon, and then work on them almost completely getting rid of it.
@@InFin8RowingIntl agreed. And it’s an asymmetric distribution around perfect timing - for every athlete who puts the blade in too early there are 20+ who put it in too late. Also agree on the approach of getting them to go too far the other way and then pull back from there - they need to overcorrect so they can feel what that is like and then start searching for the balance point between too early and too late.
How about a butterfly splash. That is, symmetrical.
Yes a V splash is great if you can time it perfectly. I would still prefer to see more of it going to the back than the front though.
Another well reasoned argument for how to row the right way.
Very clear explanation. Thanks. Mike Purcer in Canada has been doing research in this area as well.
Hi and thanks for the comment. I have checked out Mikes youtube vids and I really like the detail he goes into with his analysis.
Fluidesign uses that weave
Spot on! Absolutely stunning looking boats, and a lovely row too. I competed in one for World Masters 2022, Libourne, and Henley Masters last year.
this is great...but when you need to get those big erg test scores...I guess you row the erg like an erg ( which is a shame...but kinda true )
Hey Andy. Agreed. You can use one to help you train for the other, but at a certain level they are separate disciplines, so I want to make sure as many people understand the difference as possible. There is nothing more disheartening than crushing it on the erg and then being beaten on the water by an athlete that is not as fit or strong as you.
This is better than a lot of the nonsense about “checks the boat”, but it does talk about “boat speed” rather then the speed of the centre of mass of the boat plus rower. Newtons first law - Every body continues in a state of rest or uniform motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an EXTERNAL force. There are 2 external forces. One is friction, and the other is from driving the oar through the water. You can accelerate the hull toward you during the recovery by pulling with your feet, but that is applying an INTERNAL to the boat force. Yes the boat accelerates, and you (your body) decelerates a bit and the centre of gravity of you plus the boat smoothly decelerates under the one active EXTERNAL force - friction. At least you are a step ahead of the silly “checks the boat “ stuff when you plant your feet as that is also an INTERNAL force.
Thanks for the comment. And I do agree with the science btw. I appreciate that if you isolate the system of boat and rower alone, there is no net gain in speed, but if you look at my graphic and listen to my conclusion at the end, you will see that the gain I am referring to comes mainly from maintaining boat speed through the recovery and how that relates to resistance. The boat wants to progressively decelerate, and if it does so it sinks deeper and compounds the deceleration due to a larger wetted area. Using your centre of mass to progressively accelerate the boat, helps counter this. As long as you nail the placement and have connected before you drive, you are picking up a moving boat.
Very good technique. Slightly bent wrists at the finish. Slightly bent arms through the middle of the drive, but this is just being pick. Very good technique. Body position extremely good.
Thanks Rod. I must say, one of the most annoying things that I have found in making these vids, is that I really get annoyed when I see myself doing things I know I should not be doing. Everyone should have video of themselves, and if they don't have the knowledge, then have access to a good coach who can help them see what they are doing. I am going to be doing a video on my most disappointing athlete (myself), specifically to highlight this point. Hope you catch it.
... haha... I have just realised that you are most likely talking about Pierre Houin, not me. The guy rows amazingly, but no matter what level you are at there are things that are not perfect, but they become part of your style and if it works for you then keep it.
🎉 Great explanation
Wow. Endorsement from a big name. Thanks
Hi ! It’s so good hearing this! Believe it or not this is the way I was taught to row back in the 60’s😂 I went on to coach my crews this technique in Denmark with the lightweights and to this day I’m still coaching this way! It’s just so nice hearing it from someone else!! Cheers!
Thanks John, and welcome to the tribe. Great to hear it was taught somewhere.@@johnfaulkner1156
Similar to what Drew Ginn said in his video years. Will it make the boat go faster?
I don't know Drew Ginn, but will have a look. And yes. It really does.
Depends on the erg. Biorower is better than RP3 is better than Concept2 (including dynamic or on sliders). Biorower (and some lesser others) have boat like handles.
Agreed 100%. But if you can afford either then you're not a rowing coach 😇.
Very funny AND informative 👍🏼👍🏼 thank you (Is the carbon that of a braca oar?)
Thank you for the compliment. I hope you have subscribed so we can continue to entertain you. And for your guess. Nope it's not. Clue... It's a close up on a boat so I'm looking for the manufacturer
@@InFin8RowingIntl Empacher then? (And yes …subscribed )
Nope. I will see if anyone else guesses and then will give the answer
good one.. spelling mistake 21st second ,you have written "rovovary"...! 'recovery "is correct
I spell terribly so I'm only surprised this is the first one. Thanks
@@InFin8RowingIntl Thanks from God's own country
Love it! Thank you for this video so much! little question- how can we get/analyse easy to gather data for the reference and track of progress? Don't you thing we have opportunity to execute 2 draws- with the release and just before placement?
Hey and thanks for the question. Please let me know more about what you mean when you refer to 2 draws, with one at the extraction..?
Great explanation of an important concept.
Recurring error where her right side oars begins to hit water BEFORE it is ready to begin stroke!!!!!!!!!
Nobody rows perfectly. Her sequencing is close though.
Big error. Her right hand arm stroke begins as a brake to forward movement slowing the board ie as the right oar ends its recovery it hits the water BEFORE it is ready to begin the next stroke this decelerates the boat. Not good!!!
Of you are suggesting that there should be no backsplash the we have to disagree. I am going to do a vid on the placement as part of this series, but will also do a seperate one on why there must be backsplash. Not a big one, but one none the less. Look forward to your comments when it's done
I am waiting on the video about backsplash ❤ am interested in your point of view ❤
I am certainly going to cover backsplash in my video on The Placement. It is in the process of being made but will only come out after one on The Draw, which covers the recovery, which will be out by the weekend at the latest. I think a separate vid on backslash may be worthwhile too so thanks for the comment. Spoiler alert.... We think a backsplash is vital. I look forward to explaining why, showing the benefit of developing one, and the process of almost getting rid of one.
@@InFin8RowingIntl thank you 😊
Great insights, you've just gained a subscriber! On a different note, to minimize the green glare from your screen, you might find it beneficial to position yourself further away from it. Also, consider using a separate light sources directed at the screen and yourself.
Welcome to the tribe! And thanks for the technical mention on production. I have tried that for my next vid on The Draw, still in production. Looking forward to your feedback.
Great video, although the music is a bit distracting. No music would be better IMO.
Great video, lots to think about when I'm back on an erg
Keep the feel of the boat and the water in mind when toiling away!
Awesome! Thank you! Looking forward to full video of fine extraction and tips may be to get an excellent execution of it.
Video analysis is so useful; I have found that not everyone can see the things that you have seen in this video, even when it's in front of them in video evidence. Weird. Translates into the boat too; those people seem to find it more difficult to make changes to their stroke and, if they do, keep the changes (and revert to type under pressure). Anyway, we have found that warmups from the front end can be useful in promoting a quicker & more vertical hand movement at blade entry, and for getting the mind around a quick ramping of leg pressure to front-load the stroke. However, getting people to keep pulling the boat right up to frontstops and to stay relaxed until after blade entry is really difficult, but makes a massive difference to the run if you can get it right. Looking forward to the next video.
people that go sprinting on ergs is bad for them...I reckon
If something is going to break while on the erg, it's usually something in between the handle and the foot plate.
Left arm- awesome release, right- a bit caught all way long (might be just the settings of the boat to spotlight) would you share effective drills for clean release?
Totally agree, and we do not let learners on erg till rowing trolley is not understood and performed "good" enough- want some muscle building and strength gaining?- scull an eight on your own, or row an eight two of you, or attach anything that slows the boat down for training.. Thank you for this video :)
Great vid! 👌
... and that coming from a man who spends a LOT of time on the erg. Current British Rowing Indoor Lightweight champ over 2k. Thanks Richard
So entertaining!! 😂 love this!
Wonderful video, thank you! We love what you do! Just a thing to brainstorm- dropped wrists in a video in a release are missing out on maintaining the speed and boat travel length by 5cm at least in each stroke I believe...
I agree. The athlete in this vid is one of our InFin8 coaches, and a highly competitive masters rower. She has RA which makes feathering into the fingers is painful for her, so "motorbike wrists" is a compromise. There are faults in her technique as there are in everyone's, but her body position and sequencing is something most of us can learn from.
Wonderful video, thank you! Couple of brainstorm things- it might be helpful to recognise at which stage of experience you can talk about it working well/being officiant (square out for beginners). Other thing- you might want to be just slightly not horizontal (going up till the end of the drive in a brain, staying horizontal in actual performance/video analysis) and dump own weight on the oars to help with extraction (square or not)- in a fine execution of that taping down as an separate action gets close to full disappearance..
Thanks for the comment but I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying so not easy to respond. Please reword for me and I will revert.
In other words- push from foot stretcher to get light on a seat (going up slightly), maintain being light on a seat by work with upper body and arms till the very end of the drive, use energy of "landing" back on a seat to extract blades and drag boat under/behind centre of the weight ( of rower) least possible impacting seat. Closest comparison comes to my head- running through the tightrope. I hope that makes a sense :)
I have been railing against the usual rowing dogma for more than a decade; vertical tapdowns at the finish (which can't actually happen without the vertical spoon being pulled through the water for a distance as it rises, apart from starting off from backstops when the boats is stationary), 'let the boat come to you' on the recovery (as if some magical force is involved rather than you actively pulling it against the hull drag slowing it down), 'quick hands away' (as if throwing your 5 kg arms forward drags your 70 kg body out of backstops - how we can throw balls and not follow them through the air is a mystery), and many more... Well done; keep it going, and explain using physical principles where you can. I'll subscribe. 👍
Amen brother. Welcome to the tribe!
I like to teach newbies that the extraction initially should be thought of and practiced as two separate elements….tap down or lowering arm / forearm followed by feathering of blade through a combination of rolling the scull handle through the knuckle area of fingers and a minimal lowering action of the wrists. Once this has been mastered in slow practice…..the aim should be to develop ability to make the whole 2 stage process into a subtle single and clean / quick movement, minimising any washout. Anything wrong? Great videos.
Hi Peter. Not sure if you row yourself or strictly a coach, but if the former, I urge you to try the exercise I demonstrated at the end of the vid. Just try take the thought of the "tap down" out of the equation and just release the water through the feather (agreed this should be done into the fingers, rather than "motorbike wrists", but for beginners I don't mind what they do as long as they are comfortable and confident. I would rather fix the feather into the fingers later). When starting the exercise, its perfectly fine to just drag the blade so don't worry about lowering the arm just yet. Try it, and tell me if you don't feel like you are firstly keeping the pressure against the water a fraction longer, but secondly much more relaxed about stability, and not having to worry about getting the blade clear before the handle reaches your body... This is especially the case with newbies. They only have to catch one crab to get very anxious at the extraction and that anxiety stay with them and manifests into them popping out of the drive early, to make sure they are clear and don't get caught. As I mentioned the aim is to come out with a clear blade in the end. An experienced rower will of course want to minimise resistance by not dragging the blade, so once confident in just releasing the water you have to start making the drag lighter until the blade is off the water. Hope that clarifies.
One caveat to the above is that we believe in having the blade just below the surface of the water during the drive. If this is the case it will slip out of the vortex during the roll into the feather.
The trajectory of the handle during extraction is a semicircle not square. The moment to get the blade out is simpler and quicker than the feathering motion. In my experience (55 years) people who feather out tend to have dirty finishes and throw up water.
Thanks for the comment. I have honestly had the opposite experience. If you still have pressure on the spoon during the time that you are extracting square, then this causes a wash out. Pressure on a half extracted spoon can't be splash free. To keep the ectraction clean you would need to take pressure off the spoon during that moment. I want to keep pressure on Al long as possible because it lengthens the effective part of the drive. Admittedly only by a fraction, but fractions count. I appreciate your stand point and I was also taught this way but give it a try. If it does not work for you then that's fine. We can't all agree mate.
@@InFin8RowingIntl Thanks for feedback….interesting debate and comment. ‘The older I get the better I was…!!!” in my days of sculling in 1950/60’s. It’s great to see different views on optimal technique etc. Thanks all.
....and the other question, and this is just playing devils advocate is that does it really make that much difference to the drive since the extraction takes place when the blades are well through the work area and are probably pushing very little water away from the boat anyway since they are angled probably close to 45 degrees to the direction of travel.
Finish angle should be 30-40ish deg, but I understand your point. Although the optimal part of the arc has passed by the time you start the extraction, the combination of boat and rower are still pretty much at the max velocity at this point of the stroke so tapping off, or washing out, will affect the speed of your send and the length of your run.
Nice video - some quick questions for you. I agree absolutely that feathering out of the water on the extraction is the better way to go. However it seems to be the way most people row and a square exit seems to be more for drills. Do you have an example of any top rowers that actually do exit the stroke with square blades. I was looking at some racing and can't seem to find any although the difference may be too subtle to see unless you have a super slomo - would be interesting to compare water times if you could find any.
Thanks Darryl. The traditional way to be taught is still mostly a square extraction so that's the way most people are that I coach think unfortunately. The top rowers seem to come out of the vortex but not all. When you are at Olympic level you can come out square and it's no prob. When you are not, and especially when you are learning, it's much easier and more stable to come out like we believe. With square extraction, unless you nail it perfectly, right to left, you end up destabilizing your platform.
Watch just about and world rowing videos you see that most blades exit the water square before they are feathered.
Damir Martin does - see aram's video analysis
@@dermotbalaam5358 as I said above, if you are at the level of an Olympian, then you can row any way you like, such as with deep blades like Mahe, or three quarter slides like Oli etc. For us mere mortals, especially those looking to gain confidence in their stability, you will firstly find the rolled extraction easier, but secondly, once you have done it for a while, you will find it gives you a tine bit more time in the water.
@@ericshun7693 As someone who is also a bit the short side for a rower myself, I really like most of Damir's style. And yes, in this vid you mention, he extracts pretty much the way we believe works best. Like most of the rowing community I think Aram is mostly spot on. I'm glad we don't agree on everything though, or what new would I have to offer... Thanks for giving my methodology consideration. At the end of the day, some things work for some people and not others.
Very good use of diagrams and video to explain your point. I have found that type of extraction to be preferable as well.
Appreciated Nich. Strange how square extraction is still what being taught.
Another great video!
Wow
Really helpful video
Love these tips 🤌🤌
What a great video!
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Amazing analysis
So exciting!! 🎉
Home water 💪🏼
This is awesome!!!
Great experience!!!