Your comment that the glides come in naturally when you configure your mouth properly helped me a lot.
@jaycee330Ай бұрын
10:44 I would prefer "eclipsis" over "nasalisation"
@davelearnsirishАй бұрын
I don’t follow you. I don’t think I mention nasalisation around that time in the video
@silverkitty2503Ай бұрын
i just gonna speak it with a russian accent to confuse my teacher
@Pol_O_Fuathaigh2 ай бұрын
Go raibh míle agat!
@DroppinOfflay2 ай бұрын
Come back 😭🙏🙏
@cormacruane88303 ай бұрын
One of the best channels for irish accuracy ever! Wish you made more videos!!
@kyyowa1293 ай бұрын
I'm studying Linguistics at university and I was curious about Irish phonology, but it's sometimes hard to understand from IPA transcriptions alone. You did a great job explaining the consonants in a way that covered the processes, while also making it easy to understand. Nice pedagogy!
@feargalocleirigh4963 ай бұрын
These were great videos. I wish he had continued making them
@johngaffney75263 ай бұрын
Do you do online 1-1 classes? I am a serious student who is very interested in finding an Irish teacher. I'm Irish myself, I speak fluent Spanish and broken French. I'm reviving my interest in Irish and need many doubts to be clarified by a competent speaker before fully diving in with memorisation.
@davelearnsirish2 ай бұрын
I don’t do lessons but I’m flattered you see me as competent! Honestly I’m still very much a learner, although it seems like we both have the exact same aim in terms of finding some clarity with Irish. I am in no way affiliated and don’t know him personally at all, but you could try Patchy on iTalki. He’s a native speaker from Mayo and seems to have a teaching background, or at least experience giving online lessons. He’d be able to offer much clarity on legit native Irish I would think.
@patrickwhiteNewryBard3 ай бұрын
It would be helpful if this lad could speak up instead of mumbling the other man was definitely very clear and precise. Maybe he should go and listen to himself before going on youtube.
@noelleggett53683 ай бұрын
Bhain mé taitneamh as an gceacht seo. Bail ó Dhia ar an obair, a chara!
@philipmulville82184 ай бұрын
This is a fabulous channel, Dave. Really thorough examples and explanations.
@noelleggett53685 ай бұрын
I’ve been teaching Irish to Australians for over 25 years. Your descriptions are good - and accurate. Australian English actually has a broad and slender - dark and light - L equivalent - so that’s pretty easy. So, like you, it’s where I start to build an analogous template for my students. I have written a small reference booklet describing the sounds, and how they are written (as opposed to the usual wrong-way-around approach of looking at (written) letters and trying to pronounce them. It includes the International Phonetic Alphabet, diagrams and charts, useful information such as how A and AO are pronounced in different dialects, ‘tongue twisters’ and a comparison guide using IPA for Irish and (Australian) English consonants and vowels.
@davelearnsirish5 ай бұрын
Great to hear you're teaching pronunciation from the get go. I dare say it's 100% overlooked by almost all teachers at all stages of learning. _Australian English actually has a broad and slender - dark and light - L equivalent_ For sure, and it's not just Australian English - lots of velar Ls in the US and Canada too. Funnily enough Portuguese has them as well, which I suppose is part of why people think it sounds like Russian. _It includes the International Phonetic Alphabet_ I'm not sure if it matters to you given you're an established teacher but I personally find IPA a bit cumbersome. I'm not sure if you've ever come across them, but the 'Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies' has a series of books on Irish dialectal pronunciation from the 40s (or so) which make use of simplified systems per dialect (sometimes borrowing from IPA). The books themselves are a no go for an absolute beginner, but their systems are easy to follow for learners once the formation of a sound is understood e.g. in 'The Irish of West Muskerry', they'd write something like 'tháinig an bhean' phonetically as [ha:n’ig’ ə v’an]. So broad/slender consonants are differentiated with an apostrophe and long vowels indicated with a colon. The books use a slightly different system per dialect, so on second thought, if you're covering a lot of the dialects in your lessons, then maybe IPA is better for the vowel sounds, especially as Donegal Irish vowels are very different from Munster/Connacht ones. This series may be of interest to you regardless.
@noelleggett37275 ай бұрын
@@davelearnsirish Thank you for your generous comments. I'd be delighted to send you a pdf copy of my booklet, if you wish. It is based on the pronunciation guide in Micheal Ó Siadhal's Learning Irish, with modifications to suit the 'standard' sounds.. I'm considering revising it, and preparing a new edition later this year. I'd appreciate any feedback, but only if you want to offer any comments or suggestions.
@davelearnsirish5 ай бұрын
I don’t know if I’ll be any help but sure fire it through when you have it revised. You can email me at my channel name at gmail
@seththemage60295 ай бұрын
Explaining this concept as being similar to hard/soft sounds in Slavic languages is helping me a ton. I spent like a year and a half studying Russian, and this really helped me get the difference in sound. I pronounce luí like I would pronounce лы, and lí like I would ли.
@davelearnsirish5 ай бұрын
Glad it helped. I’m not sure if the sounds are produced in 100% the same way but I know a few Russians - and every time they teach me a sentence they’re always surprised at ‘my accent’. But I just try copy them as best I can using Irish phonetics 🤷🏻♀️
@maureenmorris42176 ай бұрын
Excellent descriptions for actually making the consonant sounds ! Will you do a video on the broad and slender vowels too? Thank you
@davelearnsirish6 ай бұрын
I haven’t thought about a video on vowels to be honest, but I’ll add it to the list. Glad this helped!
@DeborahHaynes-qb4ff6 ай бұрын
Dave, this is brilliant! I have been struggling to listen to native speakers and I try to imitate, with only some success. This is a great explanation of the placement of the tongue and the force of the air (particularly starting with English words as a comparison.) Go raibh míle maith agat! I'll now search to see if you have a video on the "slender" r!
@davelearnsirish6 ай бұрын
Glad you find it helpful. Some other commenters have added some other pointers that may help - worth a look too. Unfortunately I don’t have a video on the slender r yet.
@lunyxappocalypse70716 ай бұрын
Saying loch vs leck with the L's are good for practice.
@d.k.75706 ай бұрын
Great video! It's ridiculous you and An Loingseach are the only ones explaining this on KZread! I want to share two tips from the book Blas na Gàidhlig that helped me to pronounce broad and slender consonants (they equally apply to Gaeilge): For broad consonants, put something like a strawberry or anything of that size on top of your tongue and then pronounce the sound. You will automatically make the correct sound as your tongue is forced into the correct shape. After practicing the sound a few times like this, you can take the strawberry off but keep your tongue in the same shape, and then try to pronounce the sound without the strawberry. For most slender consonants (like c, g, l, n, ch, etc., but not t or d) it helps to first pronounce a y sound. Feel where your tongue approaches the roof of the mouth when you make the sound. Then try to make the consonant in that same place.
@davelearnsirish6 ай бұрын
Great tips! I wish I had stumbled upon that book beforehand!!! For the slender t and d sounds your tip still applies in Munster Irish, which is what I was going for in this video. But for example, in Galway slender t and d are made in much the same way, but with the tip of the tongue resting just behind the lower teeth.
@d.k.75705 ай бұрын
@@davelearnsirish Glad you like them! Oh, I didn't know the pronunciation of slender d and t depends on the dialect. That explains why I've seen them transcribed sometimes as palatalised, sometimes as a pure palatals.
@asdee016 ай бұрын
pure and utter rubbish no wonder Irish is failing as a language
@davemoloney16 ай бұрын
Just to say your videos are great, GRMA! Would love to see more of this series (full-speed native speakers broken down to give us a life-line is very welcome!) or the ones on pronunciation. Know these things take a lot of effort that doesn't come for free. Do you have a donate link or that to send you a cúpla pionta?
@davelearnsirish6 ай бұрын
You’re very kind for the offer of pints! I don’t have a link or anything but if you know any other Irish learners that these videos would benefit, please do share to them
@davemoloney15 ай бұрын
@@davelearnsirish I will indeed!
@An-dubhach6 ай бұрын
You are more than who you are
@An-dubhach6 ай бұрын
Great dave keep up the good and best work
@An-dubhach6 ай бұрын
Fantastic you speak fast and clear.sir.
@An-dubhach6 ай бұрын
Very simple and understood
@dazpatreg6 ай бұрын
Brilliant video, maith thú
@dazpatreg6 ай бұрын
Físeán iontach agus an-tuigbheáil agad ar an gcanúint
@janelleanderson67447 ай бұрын
Yeah, I could follow this. I look forward to practicing. Thanks much!
@benedyktjaworski98777 ай бұрын
Some notes: “Meas tú?” - this actually keeps the medieval form of the verb. In Classical Gaelic you’d say ‘measaidh sé’ for ‘he considers, deems’ as the independent form and ‘an meas sé?’ or ‘an measann sé?’ as the dependent form (the -ann ending was an early modern innovation and was optional). So ‘(An) meas tú?’ is actually the older form of the question. “Ní hé an aghaidh an rud is tábhachtaí” - again ‘é’ for ‘aghaidh’ (this ‘é’ could refer to ‘an rud is tábhachtaí’, but then the sense is strange - the sentence expresses ‘the most important thing is not the face’ even though it’s awkward in English, ie. it gives information about ‘the most important thing’; but ‘é’ referring to ‘an rud’ would inverse it, making it a comment about the face, not about the most important thing). But I guess there’s been a lot of confusion with pronouns with the copula for at least a few hundred years already, so I guess the usage varies a lot between speakers, even older stronger ones.
@davelearnsirish7 ай бұрын
Wow thanks for the historical context. I've no knowledge of classical Irish so this is a fun fact about 'meas tú'. _so I guess the usage varies a lot between speakers_ I think you're probably right. _again ‘é’ for ‘aghaidh’_ I guess the é/í thing is probably more obvious in non-copular sentences. Also, another commenter mentioned that referring back to a feminine noun in a general sense with 'é' is fine, which I think it probably is. My main point bringing it up was that some percentage of the time native speakers will refer back to the noun via its gender and I don't think I was ever made aware of this during schooling.
@user-fd4jb8tz7z6 ай бұрын
‘Meas tú’ is very common in Connacht. It is basically something similar to ‘I wonder’. You can say it to yourself as well. It doesn’t change depending on the number of listeners. ‘Meas sibh’ is not used; neither is ‘Meas mé’.
@disappointedenglishman987 ай бұрын
Scríobhfaidh mé is pronounced scríoha me, not scríofa me - as the -bh- is silent in most of the this paradigm (except the imperative and third sing preterite). See Ch14 of Mo Scéal Féin 06 33 in Maighréad's recording where she reads scríobhfaimís (I edited this as scríofaimís in my published edition of MSF). She reads it as scríohaimís, although the h is largely glossed over -but there is no f.
@davelearnsirish7 ай бұрын
_Scríobhfaidh mé is pronounced scríoha me, not scríofa me_ Yes 100% this is the case for Munster - I go into it at around 3:27 with the 'lámhfad' example. I might not have been clear in the video (admittedly my pacing is very fast), but I was going for the 'mhf' and 'bhf' as working in the same way. So 'lámhfad' pronounced as 'láhad', 'scríobhfaidh mé' as 'scríoha mé' and so on. For anyone following this thread I got a few of my audio samples (which the commenter recognised!) from an audiobook of 'Séadna' read by Cork native speaker Maighréad Uí Lionáird in beautiful Irish. You can buy the book and CD combo from a few online shops but here's an excerpt on youtube for anyone interested kzread.info/dash/bejne/lYGNrLp7c6evecY.html.
@disappointedenglishman987 ай бұрын
Dave Learns Irish, mar adeirthar as Gaelainn, tosach maith leath na hoibre, agus is ana-mhaith an tosach do dheinis leis an bhfíseán so. Tá súil agam go mbeidh tuilleadh le teacht sara fada. Is ró-annamh do thánag thar fhíseánaibh ar KZread 'na múintear Gaelainn mar a labharthar sa Ghaelthacht í, agus do bheadh sé go hana-mhaith níos mó rudaí fónta mar sin ' fheiscint anso!
@davelearnsirish7 ай бұрын
Go raibh míle maith agat! Deinim mo dhícheall
@disappointedenglishman987 ай бұрын
"Ná bhfaighfá" is what is said here -but ná faighfá would make more sense. Gheófí - with a slender f. É to refer back in a general sense to a feminine noun without focusing too much on that noun is fine. Cén fáth? or cad fá? Mar gheall ar muc - should have lenition, so I think it was probably mar gheall ar an muc, but even then the dative muic could have been used. Tusa a bheith - pronounced tusa bheith, as the "a" is swallowed up.
@davelearnsirish7 ай бұрын
_"Ná bhfaighfá" is what is said here -but ná faighfá would make more sense._ You're right. I wonder was he thinking of both 'ná faighfá' and 'nách bhfaighfá' and ended up coming out with a bit of a hybrid slip. Extra context for anyone else who reads this thread - 'nach' is pronounced as 'nách' in Cork and Kerry Irish. _Gheófí - with a slender f_ On re-listen I think you're spot on. _É to refer back in a general sense to a feminine noun without focusing too much on that noun is fine_ Yeah I think it's likely fine. _Cén fáth? or cad fá?_ I'm hearing 'cén fáth'. _Mar gheall ar muc - should have lenition_ You're spot on regarding the séimhiú. In terms of him using 'ar an', like yourself I don't hear the 'an' (nor a schwa). He delivers the line pretty confidently, I'm wondering is there any other grammar rule that he could be using?
@jeffersonclippership25888 ай бұрын
I speak decent Russian and grew up around Russian speakers. I can confirm the best way to learn broad v slender is to already know a Slavic language.
@liambyrne59112 күн бұрын
Thanks that is going to make it a lot easier so I will learn a very difficult language so I can learn irish
@Bainne8 ай бұрын
An-deas
@DuineDenFhine159 ай бұрын
Cáil tú a Dave 😔 Airím uaim thú
@iavv3349 ай бұрын
I hope this series and this channel comes back. I really loved the dialect-intensive studies that Dave's videos provide.
@user-vn7io1vx7h9 ай бұрын
Wondering if you could explain the caol R in Irish. I can hear it but am unsure how to pronounce it properly. Thanks! Great and very useful video!
@d.k.75706 ай бұрын
It's an alveolar flap (like in the American pronunciation of the t in 'water' or another word in which the t is between vowels) and a y sound at the same time. If you don't know how to make the flap, pronounce 'toddy' many times as quickly as possible. You'll automatically start making a flap. So for the slender r, try to pronounce a y, then keep your tongue in that position while you make a flap. I have the impression that in some dialects or some parts of a word it's just an alveolar flap without the 'y', though.
@peterhoulihan97665 ай бұрын
@@d.k.7570 I've noticed that tapped r only shows up in some areas. My earliest teachers all used an english r and gádhlig speakers exclusively use the tapped r with a trilled r occasionally.
@d.k.75705 ай бұрын
@@peterhoulihan9766 I don't think native speakers (and when I say native speakers I don't mean people raised in Irish by learners of the language) would use the English r for slender r, although I've read some young native speakers have been corrupted by the school system and started to pronounce their language like English because that's what their teachers do.
@peterhoulihan97665 ай бұрын
@@d.k.7570 Possibly. Personally I'm having serious trouble telling any difference between broad and slender consonants. I had no idea they existed up until a few days ago. Like I've seen people comparing them to polish dark L and bright L, but the difference between those is night and day.
@noelleggett53685 ай бұрын
The tapped R is the broad Irish R (it’s the sound that English newsreaders used to use for every initial R). It is also the R used in Japanese. The slender R is similar to the Czech R in ‘Dvorak’ - with a diacritic over the r. It is a bit like the S in ‘pleasure’. Try to say ‘draw’ really slowly, and feel your tongue drag from D to R, sliding from the teeth-ridge. Make sure (like all slender consonants) that the centre of your tongue is raised towards the hard palate.
@RuairiOTuathail10 ай бұрын
Very helpful. Quick question. On duolingo the new male (AI?) voice pronounces íosfaidh as "ees-fee". Csm this be correct in any dialect or is it just wrong?
@davelearnsirish10 ай бұрын
Hmmmmm I'd be very suspicious about the kinds of pronunciations you're gonna get from Duolingo with an AI voice - but being honest I haven't used Duolingo. The only times I've heard the 'f' actually pronounced as an 'f' are all in Munster, namely in the future and conditional saorbhriathar and in the 2nd person conditional. So for example, you will hear an 'f' sound for d'íosfá in Munster but there would be no 'f' nor 'h' sound in íosfaidh, d'íosfadh etc.... Off the top of my head "íosfaidh" would be pronounced as "íosə" in all dialects when a pronoun follows "íosə mé/tú. etc." where "ə" is a grunty sound (It's the 'uh' sound at the end of "I wanna" when said quickly). In this instance, in slow/deliberate Munster speech, people can pronounce it as "íosaig mé/tú. etc." Away from pronouns we get, Munster: "íosaig Séan ...", Connacht: "íosə Séan ...", Ulster: "íosaí Séan ...". So I'm guessing what the AI popped out was possibly the Ulster version with an added 'f'.
@liammelia684310 ай бұрын
Just found this now but found it really useful - cheers!
@sigil577211 ай бұрын
I'm English and not an Irish speaker, but I am a phonology fan. I am aware of the way in which the "glide" can be different in different areas. I think of Diarmuid Gavin the TV gardener (London-born but grew up in Dublin) who, because he says the word "garden" so often, my English ear hears the velar-palatal release out of the consonant as "gyarden". But I knew a woman (from Galway I think) whose family name was (Ní) Thuama, and, try as I might, I could NOT reproduce the broad 't' at the start of the surname; she certainly didn't say "tyooma". I guess that a glide is audible or not to the unaccustomed ear dependent upon the speed with which the rear of the tongue moves away from the velum/palate into the subsequent vowel; and I would imagine that for a learner of Irish it would be important to learn how to do that as quickly as possible so that it doesn't sound ridiculously exaggerated. I wonder if you agree?
@davelearnsirish11 ай бұрын
Glides certainly vary throughout the dialects and I’d think in some cases they’re less noticeable particular with Munster speakers. Instead of thinking about glides as something to learn explicitly I prefer to think of them as a consequence of the vowels that surround the broad and slender consonants. As once you’re able to reliably replicate them the glides tend to fall into place.
@sigil577211 ай бұрын
@@davelearnsirish REally appreciate you replying Dave
@davelearnsirish11 ай бұрын
No sweat!
@curtisunit Жыл бұрын
Thank you for doing these videos Dave. Been here about 10 years and 2 of those years I lived in Spideal. I used to hear it all the time and that made it easier to absorb. But I’ve only been picking away at it since I’m not in the area now. I have to teach myself. I learned useful things from this video alone. I wouldn’t have been able to put those things in but now I can and it’s appreciated. Only when I’m after reading it is it possible for me to understand what a person says sad to say. This helps greatly. 🙏
@davelearnsirish Жыл бұрын
Really glad to hear it was useful for you
@CeliacExtreme Жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for this. My mother is from Donegal but didn’t speak Irish to me when she left Ireland. I can hear the difference between broad and slender sounds fairly well because of her, but have struggled to make them as an English speaker. This helped so much!
@gosakurago Жыл бұрын
Really helpful! Exactly what I've been looking for. Thank you! 😊
@pio4362 Жыл бұрын
I'm noticing the "adh" ending being pronounced more like a softer version of "ach". In the Munster (Munsterite, Munsterian or Munsterish?) dialect, at least. I don't hear any "ag" or "ad" sound. I'm also detecting words being rolled together as in French. So "go" rolled in to the start of "dtuigfeadh" to form one syllable, "godt". In spoken Irish, the definite article "an" will sometimes sound like a simple "a", especially in the middle of longer sentences (Patchy is like this). The south Munster speaker saying "Lámhfad" sounded more like "lúhad" to my ears. The surprise vowel sound reminds one of what you'd associate more with Ulster speakers. The technical name for a gun is a firearm, and "lámh" is the Irish for hand (arm too, I believe?), so there's certainly a logic to the Gaelic worldview behind the term. I'm assuming it literally means something like I'll shove my arm in you. While that might sound odd, it's important to recall that when you first heard "to arm" in English you likely thought the literal meaning of that too, as in "to give a new arm". I suppose we have to think a little poetically or in metaphors sometimes.
@disappointedenglishman987 ай бұрын
The -adh, where it is the autonomous preterite (an important caveat) is -ag in Cork, but -ach in Kerry. Where it is something else, it is -ach in both. Do glanadh an tigh - pronounced do glanag. Glanadh sé an tigh - pronounced glanach.
@disappointedenglishman987 ай бұрын
The -adh, where it is the autonomous preterite (an important caveat) is -ag in Cork, but -ach in Kerry. Where it is something else, it is -ach in both. Do glanadh an tigh - pronounced do glanag. Glanadh sé an tigh - pronounced glanach.
@patchy642 Жыл бұрын
. So, Dave, when are you going to give us a fresh new video? It's been forever! Please get your act together and give us some new content, as KZread needs stuff like what you put up. Best wishes, Patrick.
@davelearnsirish Жыл бұрын
Should be filming the next installment of full speed Irish this week 👌🏻
@pio4362 Жыл бұрын
Another good video, Dave. You're well capable of analysing any Irish, it seems. I had a look at that Cork Irish webpage you linked, and I believe that's the same Irish language blog I visited many moons ago that I can only describe as "ultra purist". Now this might be understandable coming from a native speaker in the Gaeltacht, but it turns out he's actually a Englishman whose just a regular learner, so it is very weird. I do not like the way he constantly insists on speaking on behalf of native speakers - patronising would be too light a word to describe it. Worse, he is combative and ill-tempered in the comment sections with those who disagree with them. Most bizarrely of all, he's an English right-winger who is obsessed with the Irish language (an oxymoron like no other) and wants to import his county's classism onto our tongue, so Cork Irish is equivalent to Oxford English and Connacht Irish as Cockney in his imagination. As a Munster person, this does not flatter me, this is unfettered elitism. Here's an example of his attitude when confronted: "Irish does not “need” to get any speakers it can. The language is inanimate and doesn’t need anything at all. I recommend learners of the CO to cease their buffoonery and their attempts to speak piss Irish. This was telling, Irish is essentially dead Latin to him: "“The important thing is NOT communication at all - communication can be achieved in English - and so if you are only trying to communicate, you would do so in English.” Such a pity. But hey, I suppose that's life, eh? Sometimes the good comes with some bad. On a positive note, the blog seems to have a new operator since 2019, though unfortunately they're inactive.
@davelearnsirish Жыл бұрын
I have no affiliation with the blog and prior owner but yupp some people are certainly more purist than others. Honestly I'm just thankful that someone went to the effort of getting real native speaker recordings and making them public. High quality information on Munster Irish can be very hard to come by.
@pio4362 Жыл бұрын
@@davelearnsirish Oh, of course, its a mistake we can all make, but it probably is worth a disclaimer. I would go as far as saying he's a full on anti-Irish racist, even a white supremacist. On a few of his political articles he essentially justifies British cruelty in Ireland and caricatures the Gaelic chieftains as savages, even being mad enough to suggest we're British. It is, in fact, some of the most hateful diatribe I've ever read about us online, and all in the most unexpected of places. He is a sick, sick man. Do keep up your videos. Patchy speaks highly of your Irish :)
@davelearnsirish Жыл бұрын
Wow! Thanks for the heads up! I’ve seen some of the argumentative comments but nothing like that, I had no clue! I’ll make sure to add a disclaimer if I reference it again.
@pio4362 Жыл бұрын
@@davelearnsirish No bother. I don't mean to be political or anything (we should strive to keep politics out as much as we can in language learning space) but he's just way too extreme for comfort. Thankfully, in the last few years, he was forced out of control of the blog and someone else is now in charge, but they haven't posted, nor have they bothered to scrub any of his bigoted articles or comments. I won't be visiting that site again until its cleaned up.
@disappointedenglishman987 ай бұрын
@@pio4362 Well I expect the old owner (=me) of the Cork Irish blog will manage to sleep well knowing you won't visit the site. I wasn't forced out, but really I don't have to explain. I don't have time to run a blog as I am busy editing Irish books for publication.
@pio4362 Жыл бұрын
Dia dhuit, Dave. This was a terrific video, and I appreciate how straightforward you are, never overcomplicating things. While I'm in awe of "An Loingseach" 's knowledge (what is he 20 years old year? He'll be some professor yet), I find it very frustrating that he constantly goes off on these tangents such as unnecessary etymology lessons, complaining about 20th cen standardisation, insisting on the annoying Gaelic font etc. It's like you're learning to drive and the instructor insists on teaching you how to race the car on a track - you don't need it! I still wish he'd make more video, his Munster accent is as authentic as it gets on a modern younger person. While I was watching your video here I kept being reminded of how the native speaker from Co. Clare talks in the viral video "Monolingual Irish Speaker". Although he is elderly (thus far deeper in pitch than us), and maybe reciting something (poetry?), the broad consonants are extremely noticeable. I'll be honest with you, Dave, as soon as I started listening (for intonation, pronunciation, not for understanding) to proper native speakers, it became like night and day between them and a teacher who is an L2 speaker. Its as if the later is a piano player who doesn't or cannot use all the available keys - they'll still give you lovely music but it will not be Chopin, it will not be comprehensive. I love "Learn Irish", he is full of enthusiasm and clearly fluent, but he lacks that dynamic accent (or maybe that's Wexford/Leinster Irish?). I hope this wasn't too long to read. I'm an Irish person trying to get back to the native tongue after a while spent on other languages.
@davelearnsirish Жыл бұрын
Not too long a read at all and thanks for the feedback. I'm glad you found the video helpful and fair play for getting back into it.
@pio4362 Жыл бұрын
@@davelearnsirish I was wondering Dave if you'd any opinion on English fillers (pause words) being imported into Irish? I find it terribly jarring, as you'd never expect them in Spanish or French, so why in Irish? The culprits being "you know", "I mean", "like", "yeah", "so" and "well". I suppose the last one has an excuse being Gaelicised with some time now as "bhoil".
@davelearnsirish Жыл бұрын
Funny you should mention this. I was chatting to a Mayo native speaker from Erris recently and he brought up that there was no need to force Irish words onto English words that have already been imported into the language. Specifically he brought up 'bicycle' and 'puncture' as examples - and no doubt, you can hear 'mo bhicycle', 'mo bhall' and the like. Although I think in Munster you'll come across the words 'rothar' etc. Similarly in French, as purist as they can be, I've come across some imported words like 'fun' and 'cool' in native usage. Back to your question though. When learning a language, there's a temptation to fall back on your native tongue in terms of pronunciation, intonation, filler words, direct translations and so on. So as a learner who wants to become fluent I think it's a best to avoid English usage in the target language and to immerse yourself in the real deal as best you can. Otherwise you run the risk of importing habits from your native language. Outside of this, I believe it's entirely up to native speakers to determine what constitutes good use or slang of the language, and if that includes hesitation words so be it. Like you said, I think 'bhuel' is probably regular Irish at this point and I've heard very strong speakers mix in the occasional 'yea' with 'sea' and 'só' every now and again. Off the top of my head I'm not sure if I've commonly heard 'like', 'I mean' and 'ya know' outside of learners or Gaelscoil speakers but I could well be wrong on this, I don't live in the Gaeltacht. Personally I find them jarring as you do. You've also reminded me of a piece on rnag's Saol ó dheas I heard yonks ago between Kerry native Helen ní Shé and Déise native Noel ó Murchadha which is probably worth a re-listen: www.rte.ie/gaeilge/2021/0119/1190736-so-like-really-do-these-words-have-any-place-sa-ghaeilge/ And funnily enough he says 'radio' instead of 'raidió' here, another example I suppose.
@pio4362 Жыл бұрын
@@davelearnsirish I've heard the fillers 'like', 'I mean' and 'ya know' from "Gaeilge i mo chroí", one of the two biggest channels aimed towards Irish learners. She's a twenty-something, who I believe is not a native speaker. However, in a conversation video she did with a person who was a native speaker of the Ulster dialect, I did notice an enormous amount of "You know" from her guest, and that half depressed me. It surely wasn't a coincidence that he was also a twenty-something, though I will hand it to him for speaking with a flawless accent. I wish there was native Gaelic filler words that could step into its place. Maybe in old recordings we'll find them? Or better yet, the fifty-somethings + on TG4 or RnG still living. If I interrupt a non-native English speaker to make one minor correction to his/her pronunciation, am I language policing? Surely, I'm not, and I think the learner would be glad of my assistance, provided I'm not being excessive. It should be the same in Irish. Natives should strive to perfect the phonology of L2 speakers, and a little quick interruption here and there, very gently, during conversation is the best way. As long as the attitude isn't patronising, but encouragement. I would distinguish between an imported filler and a loanword. The latter is surely inevitable to some degree, is it not? Think of "le weekend" en français. Or people in the UK using the American-English "I guess". Seomra is a loanword in Irish from the French chambre, and it's been there centuries, as far as I know. I suppose when the loanwords start to dominate the language then you do have a problem, which they call a pidgin. But Irish is relatively resistant to that, isn't it? It's always coming up with words of its own like French usually is, no? That's the written form though, the fillers are in everyday speech and that's the part of the language I care far more about. An imported filler feels like you're betraying your mother tongue, polluting the new target language if that's not too crude a thing to say. I'd totally agree with leaving the idea of good Irish and slang up to the native speakers, we can't second judge them. "Sea" is also there with a while, and you can always interchange with "tá!". Looking at the dictionary, "só" seems to be already reserved as the word for comfort/peace of mind or luxury? Do we not have "mar sin" to mean "so"? I like "anseo" as it reminds one of "alors" in French, "allora" in Italian or "alors" and "bueno" in Spanish. As I mention below, however, this may be a calque way of thinking. "Mar sin" might be more natural. I get the impression there are 3 methods of translation from one tongue to another: loanword (with or without modification; mod process known as anglicisation, gaelisation etc), transliterate (word for word translation aka calque) and translation of meaning (transferring the jist of an idea into another tongue using the dynamics of the new language). Professional translators preferring the last one, though it also requires more lucid and imaginative thinking. Could radio' instead of 'raidió' be a dialect thing? Even within Munster, I've heard a person from Waterford remark how those in the other end of the province were pronouncing their very own Gaeltacht, "An Rinn", strange (to her ears). English phonetically: rinnnnne vs riiiiiiiine.
@davelearnsirish Жыл бұрын
You've touched on a lot here! _I wish there was native Gaelic filler words that could step into its place_ These absolutely exist, and could make a fun video! _Could 'radio' instead of 'raidió' be a dialect thing_ It could indeed be. _I've heard a person from Waterford remark how those in the other end of the province were pronouncing their very own Gaeltacht, "An Rinn", strange (to her ears)_ This is absolutely dialectal. Munster is very consistent, but across munster (and indeed the country) you see a variation in how 'll' and 'nn' (amongst some other consonants) are pronounced as well as what happen to vowels that precede them. For example 'rinn' gets pronounced (very approximately!) as 'rín' in Kerry, 'ríng' in Cork and 'ryng' where the 'y' approximates the english word 'eye'. So you can already see how the regions vary a little with the slender 'nn' more or less being a slender 'ng' sound in Cork and Ring but a regular slender 'n' in Kerry. Furthermore the 'nn' in this case causes a lengthening in the prior vowel sound from 'i' to 'í' in Kerry and Cork and in Ring it gets diphthongised (a diphthong being a single vowel sounds made up of two vowel sounds, think the 'o' sound in 'own' in English, your lips move throughout the vowel sound even though we native speakers perceive it as a single vowel sound). Interestingly enough, the lengthening/diphthong disappears when a vowel follows the 'nn'. So in something like 'gaeilge na Rinne', 'Rinne' is pronounced as 'rine' in Kerry and 'ringe' in Cork and Ring! I wouldn't let your head spin about this though. Picking up these variations is akin to hearing a variation in someones English, you notice them as you're exposed to a wider array of speakers.
@lorenzovalsesia3721 Жыл бұрын
Extremely useful!
@nthmost Жыл бұрын
I love that you sourced sound clips from native speakers. Your pacing is great too. This is really, really useful!
@johncarroll6075 Жыл бұрын
Ba mhaith liom níos mó físeáin mar seo don idirmheán leibhéal ! …An-ghreannmhar, cabhrach, agus agus eolas mór ann. maith thú a chara!
@cygnusmir1627 Жыл бұрын
Físeán iontach! Tá ceist agam duit mura miste leat, cé chomh fada atá tú ag foghlaim Gaeilge?
@davelearnsirish Жыл бұрын
Ní miste! Deacair a rá, bhínn im chónaí sa Ghaeltacht ar feadh bliana nuair a bhíos i bhfad níos óige ach táim ag athfhoghlaim le bliain go leith anuas b’fhéidir
@cygnusmir1627 Жыл бұрын
@@davelearnsirish Ó go maith, ní raibh a fhios agam riamh. Cén Gaeltacht?
@davelearnsirish Жыл бұрын
Gaeltacht na Rinne, fad an lá!
@cygnusmir1627 Жыл бұрын
@@davelearnsirish oh iontach, beidh mé ag dul go dtí an Gaeltacht an samhradh seo
Пікірлер
Your comment that the glides come in naturally when you configure your mouth properly helped me a lot.
10:44 I would prefer "eclipsis" over "nasalisation"
I don’t follow you. I don’t think I mention nasalisation around that time in the video
i just gonna speak it with a russian accent to confuse my teacher
Go raibh míle agat!
Come back 😭🙏🙏
One of the best channels for irish accuracy ever! Wish you made more videos!!
I'm studying Linguistics at university and I was curious about Irish phonology, but it's sometimes hard to understand from IPA transcriptions alone. You did a great job explaining the consonants in a way that covered the processes, while also making it easy to understand. Nice pedagogy!
These were great videos. I wish he had continued making them
Do you do online 1-1 classes? I am a serious student who is very interested in finding an Irish teacher. I'm Irish myself, I speak fluent Spanish and broken French. I'm reviving my interest in Irish and need many doubts to be clarified by a competent speaker before fully diving in with memorisation.
I don’t do lessons but I’m flattered you see me as competent! Honestly I’m still very much a learner, although it seems like we both have the exact same aim in terms of finding some clarity with Irish. I am in no way affiliated and don’t know him personally at all, but you could try Patchy on iTalki. He’s a native speaker from Mayo and seems to have a teaching background, or at least experience giving online lessons. He’d be able to offer much clarity on legit native Irish I would think.
It would be helpful if this lad could speak up instead of mumbling the other man was definitely very clear and precise. Maybe he should go and listen to himself before going on youtube.
Bhain mé taitneamh as an gceacht seo. Bail ó Dhia ar an obair, a chara!
This is a fabulous channel, Dave. Really thorough examples and explanations.
I’ve been teaching Irish to Australians for over 25 years. Your descriptions are good - and accurate. Australian English actually has a broad and slender - dark and light - L equivalent - so that’s pretty easy. So, like you, it’s where I start to build an analogous template for my students. I have written a small reference booklet describing the sounds, and how they are written (as opposed to the usual wrong-way-around approach of looking at (written) letters and trying to pronounce them. It includes the International Phonetic Alphabet, diagrams and charts, useful information such as how A and AO are pronounced in different dialects, ‘tongue twisters’ and a comparison guide using IPA for Irish and (Australian) English consonants and vowels.
Great to hear you're teaching pronunciation from the get go. I dare say it's 100% overlooked by almost all teachers at all stages of learning. _Australian English actually has a broad and slender - dark and light - L equivalent_ For sure, and it's not just Australian English - lots of velar Ls in the US and Canada too. Funnily enough Portuguese has them as well, which I suppose is part of why people think it sounds like Russian. _It includes the International Phonetic Alphabet_ I'm not sure if it matters to you given you're an established teacher but I personally find IPA a bit cumbersome. I'm not sure if you've ever come across them, but the 'Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies' has a series of books on Irish dialectal pronunciation from the 40s (or so) which make use of simplified systems per dialect (sometimes borrowing from IPA). The books themselves are a no go for an absolute beginner, but their systems are easy to follow for learners once the formation of a sound is understood e.g. in 'The Irish of West Muskerry', they'd write something like 'tháinig an bhean' phonetically as [ha:n’ig’ ə v’an]. So broad/slender consonants are differentiated with an apostrophe and long vowels indicated with a colon. The books use a slightly different system per dialect, so on second thought, if you're covering a lot of the dialects in your lessons, then maybe IPA is better for the vowel sounds, especially as Donegal Irish vowels are very different from Munster/Connacht ones. This series may be of interest to you regardless.
@@davelearnsirish Thank you for your generous comments. I'd be delighted to send you a pdf copy of my booklet, if you wish. It is based on the pronunciation guide in Micheal Ó Siadhal's Learning Irish, with modifications to suit the 'standard' sounds.. I'm considering revising it, and preparing a new edition later this year. I'd appreciate any feedback, but only if you want to offer any comments or suggestions.
I don’t know if I’ll be any help but sure fire it through when you have it revised. You can email me at my channel name at gmail
Explaining this concept as being similar to hard/soft sounds in Slavic languages is helping me a ton. I spent like a year and a half studying Russian, and this really helped me get the difference in sound. I pronounce luí like I would pronounce лы, and lí like I would ли.
Glad it helped. I’m not sure if the sounds are produced in 100% the same way but I know a few Russians - and every time they teach me a sentence they’re always surprised at ‘my accent’. But I just try copy them as best I can using Irish phonetics 🤷🏻♀️
Excellent descriptions for actually making the consonant sounds ! Will you do a video on the broad and slender vowels too? Thank you
I haven’t thought about a video on vowels to be honest, but I’ll add it to the list. Glad this helped!
Dave, this is brilliant! I have been struggling to listen to native speakers and I try to imitate, with only some success. This is a great explanation of the placement of the tongue and the force of the air (particularly starting with English words as a comparison.) Go raibh míle maith agat! I'll now search to see if you have a video on the "slender" r!
Glad you find it helpful. Some other commenters have added some other pointers that may help - worth a look too. Unfortunately I don’t have a video on the slender r yet.
Saying loch vs leck with the L's are good for practice.
Great video! It's ridiculous you and An Loingseach are the only ones explaining this on KZread! I want to share two tips from the book Blas na Gàidhlig that helped me to pronounce broad and slender consonants (they equally apply to Gaeilge): For broad consonants, put something like a strawberry or anything of that size on top of your tongue and then pronounce the sound. You will automatically make the correct sound as your tongue is forced into the correct shape. After practicing the sound a few times like this, you can take the strawberry off but keep your tongue in the same shape, and then try to pronounce the sound without the strawberry. For most slender consonants (like c, g, l, n, ch, etc., but not t or d) it helps to first pronounce a y sound. Feel where your tongue approaches the roof of the mouth when you make the sound. Then try to make the consonant in that same place.
Great tips! I wish I had stumbled upon that book beforehand!!! For the slender t and d sounds your tip still applies in Munster Irish, which is what I was going for in this video. But for example, in Galway slender t and d are made in much the same way, but with the tip of the tongue resting just behind the lower teeth.
@@davelearnsirish Glad you like them! Oh, I didn't know the pronunciation of slender d and t depends on the dialect. That explains why I've seen them transcribed sometimes as palatalised, sometimes as a pure palatals.
pure and utter rubbish no wonder Irish is failing as a language
Just to say your videos are great, GRMA! Would love to see more of this series (full-speed native speakers broken down to give us a life-line is very welcome!) or the ones on pronunciation. Know these things take a lot of effort that doesn't come for free. Do you have a donate link or that to send you a cúpla pionta?
You’re very kind for the offer of pints! I don’t have a link or anything but if you know any other Irish learners that these videos would benefit, please do share to them
@@davelearnsirish I will indeed!
You are more than who you are
Great dave keep up the good and best work
Fantastic you speak fast and clear.sir.
Very simple and understood
Brilliant video, maith thú
Físeán iontach agus an-tuigbheáil agad ar an gcanúint
Yeah, I could follow this. I look forward to practicing. Thanks much!
Some notes: “Meas tú?” - this actually keeps the medieval form of the verb. In Classical Gaelic you’d say ‘measaidh sé’ for ‘he considers, deems’ as the independent form and ‘an meas sé?’ or ‘an measann sé?’ as the dependent form (the -ann ending was an early modern innovation and was optional). So ‘(An) meas tú?’ is actually the older form of the question. “Ní hé an aghaidh an rud is tábhachtaí” - again ‘é’ for ‘aghaidh’ (this ‘é’ could refer to ‘an rud is tábhachtaí’, but then the sense is strange - the sentence expresses ‘the most important thing is not the face’ even though it’s awkward in English, ie. it gives information about ‘the most important thing’; but ‘é’ referring to ‘an rud’ would inverse it, making it a comment about the face, not about the most important thing). But I guess there’s been a lot of confusion with pronouns with the copula for at least a few hundred years already, so I guess the usage varies a lot between speakers, even older stronger ones.
Wow thanks for the historical context. I've no knowledge of classical Irish so this is a fun fact about 'meas tú'. _so I guess the usage varies a lot between speakers_ I think you're probably right. _again ‘é’ for ‘aghaidh’_ I guess the é/í thing is probably more obvious in non-copular sentences. Also, another commenter mentioned that referring back to a feminine noun in a general sense with 'é' is fine, which I think it probably is. My main point bringing it up was that some percentage of the time native speakers will refer back to the noun via its gender and I don't think I was ever made aware of this during schooling.
‘Meas tú’ is very common in Connacht. It is basically something similar to ‘I wonder’. You can say it to yourself as well. It doesn’t change depending on the number of listeners. ‘Meas sibh’ is not used; neither is ‘Meas mé’.
Scríobhfaidh mé is pronounced scríoha me, not scríofa me - as the -bh- is silent in most of the this paradigm (except the imperative and third sing preterite). See Ch14 of Mo Scéal Féin 06 33 in Maighréad's recording where she reads scríobhfaimís (I edited this as scríofaimís in my published edition of MSF). She reads it as scríohaimís, although the h is largely glossed over -but there is no f.
_Scríobhfaidh mé is pronounced scríoha me, not scríofa me_ Yes 100% this is the case for Munster - I go into it at around 3:27 with the 'lámhfad' example. I might not have been clear in the video (admittedly my pacing is very fast), but I was going for the 'mhf' and 'bhf' as working in the same way. So 'lámhfad' pronounced as 'láhad', 'scríobhfaidh mé' as 'scríoha mé' and so on. For anyone following this thread I got a few of my audio samples (which the commenter recognised!) from an audiobook of 'Séadna' read by Cork native speaker Maighréad Uí Lionáird in beautiful Irish. You can buy the book and CD combo from a few online shops but here's an excerpt on youtube for anyone interested kzread.info/dash/bejne/lYGNrLp7c6evecY.html.
Dave Learns Irish, mar adeirthar as Gaelainn, tosach maith leath na hoibre, agus is ana-mhaith an tosach do dheinis leis an bhfíseán so. Tá súil agam go mbeidh tuilleadh le teacht sara fada. Is ró-annamh do thánag thar fhíseánaibh ar KZread 'na múintear Gaelainn mar a labharthar sa Ghaelthacht í, agus do bheadh sé go hana-mhaith níos mó rudaí fónta mar sin ' fheiscint anso!
Go raibh míle maith agat! Deinim mo dhícheall
"Ná bhfaighfá" is what is said here -but ná faighfá would make more sense. Gheófí - with a slender f. É to refer back in a general sense to a feminine noun without focusing too much on that noun is fine. Cén fáth? or cad fá? Mar gheall ar muc - should have lenition, so I think it was probably mar gheall ar an muc, but even then the dative muic could have been used. Tusa a bheith - pronounced tusa bheith, as the "a" is swallowed up.
_"Ná bhfaighfá" is what is said here -but ná faighfá would make more sense._ You're right. I wonder was he thinking of both 'ná faighfá' and 'nách bhfaighfá' and ended up coming out with a bit of a hybrid slip. Extra context for anyone else who reads this thread - 'nach' is pronounced as 'nách' in Cork and Kerry Irish. _Gheófí - with a slender f_ On re-listen I think you're spot on. _É to refer back in a general sense to a feminine noun without focusing too much on that noun is fine_ Yeah I think it's likely fine. _Cén fáth? or cad fá?_ I'm hearing 'cén fáth'. _Mar gheall ar muc - should have lenition_ You're spot on regarding the séimhiú. In terms of him using 'ar an', like yourself I don't hear the 'an' (nor a schwa). He delivers the line pretty confidently, I'm wondering is there any other grammar rule that he could be using?
I speak decent Russian and grew up around Russian speakers. I can confirm the best way to learn broad v slender is to already know a Slavic language.
Thanks that is going to make it a lot easier so I will learn a very difficult language so I can learn irish
An-deas
Cáil tú a Dave 😔 Airím uaim thú
I hope this series and this channel comes back. I really loved the dialect-intensive studies that Dave's videos provide.
Wondering if you could explain the caol R in Irish. I can hear it but am unsure how to pronounce it properly. Thanks! Great and very useful video!
It's an alveolar flap (like in the American pronunciation of the t in 'water' or another word in which the t is between vowels) and a y sound at the same time. If you don't know how to make the flap, pronounce 'toddy' many times as quickly as possible. You'll automatically start making a flap. So for the slender r, try to pronounce a y, then keep your tongue in that position while you make a flap. I have the impression that in some dialects or some parts of a word it's just an alveolar flap without the 'y', though.
@@d.k.7570 I've noticed that tapped r only shows up in some areas. My earliest teachers all used an english r and gádhlig speakers exclusively use the tapped r with a trilled r occasionally.
@@peterhoulihan9766 I don't think native speakers (and when I say native speakers I don't mean people raised in Irish by learners of the language) would use the English r for slender r, although I've read some young native speakers have been corrupted by the school system and started to pronounce their language like English because that's what their teachers do.
@@d.k.7570 Possibly. Personally I'm having serious trouble telling any difference between broad and slender consonants. I had no idea they existed up until a few days ago. Like I've seen people comparing them to polish dark L and bright L, but the difference between those is night and day.
The tapped R is the broad Irish R (it’s the sound that English newsreaders used to use for every initial R). It is also the R used in Japanese. The slender R is similar to the Czech R in ‘Dvorak’ - with a diacritic over the r. It is a bit like the S in ‘pleasure’. Try to say ‘draw’ really slowly, and feel your tongue drag from D to R, sliding from the teeth-ridge. Make sure (like all slender consonants) that the centre of your tongue is raised towards the hard palate.
Very helpful. Quick question. On duolingo the new male (AI?) voice pronounces íosfaidh as "ees-fee". Csm this be correct in any dialect or is it just wrong?
Hmmmmm I'd be very suspicious about the kinds of pronunciations you're gonna get from Duolingo with an AI voice - but being honest I haven't used Duolingo. The only times I've heard the 'f' actually pronounced as an 'f' are all in Munster, namely in the future and conditional saorbhriathar and in the 2nd person conditional. So for example, you will hear an 'f' sound for d'íosfá in Munster but there would be no 'f' nor 'h' sound in íosfaidh, d'íosfadh etc.... Off the top of my head "íosfaidh" would be pronounced as "íosə" in all dialects when a pronoun follows "íosə mé/tú. etc." where "ə" is a grunty sound (It's the 'uh' sound at the end of "I wanna" when said quickly). In this instance, in slow/deliberate Munster speech, people can pronounce it as "íosaig mé/tú. etc." Away from pronouns we get, Munster: "íosaig Séan ...", Connacht: "íosə Séan ...", Ulster: "íosaí Séan ...". So I'm guessing what the AI popped out was possibly the Ulster version with an added 'f'.
Just found this now but found it really useful - cheers!
I'm English and not an Irish speaker, but I am a phonology fan. I am aware of the way in which the "glide" can be different in different areas. I think of Diarmuid Gavin the TV gardener (London-born but grew up in Dublin) who, because he says the word "garden" so often, my English ear hears the velar-palatal release out of the consonant as "gyarden". But I knew a woman (from Galway I think) whose family name was (Ní) Thuama, and, try as I might, I could NOT reproduce the broad 't' at the start of the surname; she certainly didn't say "tyooma". I guess that a glide is audible or not to the unaccustomed ear dependent upon the speed with which the rear of the tongue moves away from the velum/palate into the subsequent vowel; and I would imagine that for a learner of Irish it would be important to learn how to do that as quickly as possible so that it doesn't sound ridiculously exaggerated. I wonder if you agree?
Glides certainly vary throughout the dialects and I’d think in some cases they’re less noticeable particular with Munster speakers. Instead of thinking about glides as something to learn explicitly I prefer to think of them as a consequence of the vowels that surround the broad and slender consonants. As once you’re able to reliably replicate them the glides tend to fall into place.
@@davelearnsirish REally appreciate you replying Dave
No sweat!
Thank you for doing these videos Dave. Been here about 10 years and 2 of those years I lived in Spideal. I used to hear it all the time and that made it easier to absorb. But I’ve only been picking away at it since I’m not in the area now. I have to teach myself. I learned useful things from this video alone. I wouldn’t have been able to put those things in but now I can and it’s appreciated. Only when I’m after reading it is it possible for me to understand what a person says sad to say. This helps greatly. 🙏
Really glad to hear it was useful for you
Thank you so much for this. My mother is from Donegal but didn’t speak Irish to me when she left Ireland. I can hear the difference between broad and slender sounds fairly well because of her, but have struggled to make them as an English speaker. This helped so much!
Really helpful! Exactly what I've been looking for. Thank you! 😊
I'm noticing the "adh" ending being pronounced more like a softer version of "ach". In the Munster (Munsterite, Munsterian or Munsterish?) dialect, at least. I don't hear any "ag" or "ad" sound. I'm also detecting words being rolled together as in French. So "go" rolled in to the start of "dtuigfeadh" to form one syllable, "godt". In spoken Irish, the definite article "an" will sometimes sound like a simple "a", especially in the middle of longer sentences (Patchy is like this). The south Munster speaker saying "Lámhfad" sounded more like "lúhad" to my ears. The surprise vowel sound reminds one of what you'd associate more with Ulster speakers. The technical name for a gun is a firearm, and "lámh" is the Irish for hand (arm too, I believe?), so there's certainly a logic to the Gaelic worldview behind the term. I'm assuming it literally means something like I'll shove my arm in you. While that might sound odd, it's important to recall that when you first heard "to arm" in English you likely thought the literal meaning of that too, as in "to give a new arm". I suppose we have to think a little poetically or in metaphors sometimes.
The -adh, where it is the autonomous preterite (an important caveat) is -ag in Cork, but -ach in Kerry. Where it is something else, it is -ach in both. Do glanadh an tigh - pronounced do glanag. Glanadh sé an tigh - pronounced glanach.
The -adh, where it is the autonomous preterite (an important caveat) is -ag in Cork, but -ach in Kerry. Where it is something else, it is -ach in both. Do glanadh an tigh - pronounced do glanag. Glanadh sé an tigh - pronounced glanach.
. So, Dave, when are you going to give us a fresh new video? It's been forever! Please get your act together and give us some new content, as KZread needs stuff like what you put up. Best wishes, Patrick.
Should be filming the next installment of full speed Irish this week 👌🏻
Another good video, Dave. You're well capable of analysing any Irish, it seems. I had a look at that Cork Irish webpage you linked, and I believe that's the same Irish language blog I visited many moons ago that I can only describe as "ultra purist". Now this might be understandable coming from a native speaker in the Gaeltacht, but it turns out he's actually a Englishman whose just a regular learner, so it is very weird. I do not like the way he constantly insists on speaking on behalf of native speakers - patronising would be too light a word to describe it. Worse, he is combative and ill-tempered in the comment sections with those who disagree with them. Most bizarrely of all, he's an English right-winger who is obsessed with the Irish language (an oxymoron like no other) and wants to import his county's classism onto our tongue, so Cork Irish is equivalent to Oxford English and Connacht Irish as Cockney in his imagination. As a Munster person, this does not flatter me, this is unfettered elitism. Here's an example of his attitude when confronted: "Irish does not “need” to get any speakers it can. The language is inanimate and doesn’t need anything at all. I recommend learners of the CO to cease their buffoonery and their attempts to speak piss Irish. This was telling, Irish is essentially dead Latin to him: "“The important thing is NOT communication at all - communication can be achieved in English - and so if you are only trying to communicate, you would do so in English.” Such a pity. But hey, I suppose that's life, eh? Sometimes the good comes with some bad. On a positive note, the blog seems to have a new operator since 2019, though unfortunately they're inactive.
I have no affiliation with the blog and prior owner but yupp some people are certainly more purist than others. Honestly I'm just thankful that someone went to the effort of getting real native speaker recordings and making them public. High quality information on Munster Irish can be very hard to come by.
@@davelearnsirish Oh, of course, its a mistake we can all make, but it probably is worth a disclaimer. I would go as far as saying he's a full on anti-Irish racist, even a white supremacist. On a few of his political articles he essentially justifies British cruelty in Ireland and caricatures the Gaelic chieftains as savages, even being mad enough to suggest we're British. It is, in fact, some of the most hateful diatribe I've ever read about us online, and all in the most unexpected of places. He is a sick, sick man. Do keep up your videos. Patchy speaks highly of your Irish :)
Wow! Thanks for the heads up! I’ve seen some of the argumentative comments but nothing like that, I had no clue! I’ll make sure to add a disclaimer if I reference it again.
@@davelearnsirish No bother. I don't mean to be political or anything (we should strive to keep politics out as much as we can in language learning space) but he's just way too extreme for comfort. Thankfully, in the last few years, he was forced out of control of the blog and someone else is now in charge, but they haven't posted, nor have they bothered to scrub any of his bigoted articles or comments. I won't be visiting that site again until its cleaned up.
@@pio4362 Well I expect the old owner (=me) of the Cork Irish blog will manage to sleep well knowing you won't visit the site. I wasn't forced out, but really I don't have to explain. I don't have time to run a blog as I am busy editing Irish books for publication.
Dia dhuit, Dave. This was a terrific video, and I appreciate how straightforward you are, never overcomplicating things. While I'm in awe of "An Loingseach" 's knowledge (what is he 20 years old year? He'll be some professor yet), I find it very frustrating that he constantly goes off on these tangents such as unnecessary etymology lessons, complaining about 20th cen standardisation, insisting on the annoying Gaelic font etc. It's like you're learning to drive and the instructor insists on teaching you how to race the car on a track - you don't need it! I still wish he'd make more video, his Munster accent is as authentic as it gets on a modern younger person. While I was watching your video here I kept being reminded of how the native speaker from Co. Clare talks in the viral video "Monolingual Irish Speaker". Although he is elderly (thus far deeper in pitch than us), and maybe reciting something (poetry?), the broad consonants are extremely noticeable. I'll be honest with you, Dave, as soon as I started listening (for intonation, pronunciation, not for understanding) to proper native speakers, it became like night and day between them and a teacher who is an L2 speaker. Its as if the later is a piano player who doesn't or cannot use all the available keys - they'll still give you lovely music but it will not be Chopin, it will not be comprehensive. I love "Learn Irish", he is full of enthusiasm and clearly fluent, but he lacks that dynamic accent (or maybe that's Wexford/Leinster Irish?). I hope this wasn't too long to read. I'm an Irish person trying to get back to the native tongue after a while spent on other languages.
Not too long a read at all and thanks for the feedback. I'm glad you found the video helpful and fair play for getting back into it.
@@davelearnsirish I was wondering Dave if you'd any opinion on English fillers (pause words) being imported into Irish? I find it terribly jarring, as you'd never expect them in Spanish or French, so why in Irish? The culprits being "you know", "I mean", "like", "yeah", "so" and "well". I suppose the last one has an excuse being Gaelicised with some time now as "bhoil".
Funny you should mention this. I was chatting to a Mayo native speaker from Erris recently and he brought up that there was no need to force Irish words onto English words that have already been imported into the language. Specifically he brought up 'bicycle' and 'puncture' as examples - and no doubt, you can hear 'mo bhicycle', 'mo bhall' and the like. Although I think in Munster you'll come across the words 'rothar' etc. Similarly in French, as purist as they can be, I've come across some imported words like 'fun' and 'cool' in native usage. Back to your question though. When learning a language, there's a temptation to fall back on your native tongue in terms of pronunciation, intonation, filler words, direct translations and so on. So as a learner who wants to become fluent I think it's a best to avoid English usage in the target language and to immerse yourself in the real deal as best you can. Otherwise you run the risk of importing habits from your native language. Outside of this, I believe it's entirely up to native speakers to determine what constitutes good use or slang of the language, and if that includes hesitation words so be it. Like you said, I think 'bhuel' is probably regular Irish at this point and I've heard very strong speakers mix in the occasional 'yea' with 'sea' and 'só' every now and again. Off the top of my head I'm not sure if I've commonly heard 'like', 'I mean' and 'ya know' outside of learners or Gaelscoil speakers but I could well be wrong on this, I don't live in the Gaeltacht. Personally I find them jarring as you do. You've also reminded me of a piece on rnag's Saol ó dheas I heard yonks ago between Kerry native Helen ní Shé and Déise native Noel ó Murchadha which is probably worth a re-listen: www.rte.ie/gaeilge/2021/0119/1190736-so-like-really-do-these-words-have-any-place-sa-ghaeilge/ And funnily enough he says 'radio' instead of 'raidió' here, another example I suppose.
@@davelearnsirish I've heard the fillers 'like', 'I mean' and 'ya know' from "Gaeilge i mo chroí", one of the two biggest channels aimed towards Irish learners. She's a twenty-something, who I believe is not a native speaker. However, in a conversation video she did with a person who was a native speaker of the Ulster dialect, I did notice an enormous amount of "You know" from her guest, and that half depressed me. It surely wasn't a coincidence that he was also a twenty-something, though I will hand it to him for speaking with a flawless accent. I wish there was native Gaelic filler words that could step into its place. Maybe in old recordings we'll find them? Or better yet, the fifty-somethings + on TG4 or RnG still living. If I interrupt a non-native English speaker to make one minor correction to his/her pronunciation, am I language policing? Surely, I'm not, and I think the learner would be glad of my assistance, provided I'm not being excessive. It should be the same in Irish. Natives should strive to perfect the phonology of L2 speakers, and a little quick interruption here and there, very gently, during conversation is the best way. As long as the attitude isn't patronising, but encouragement. I would distinguish between an imported filler and a loanword. The latter is surely inevitable to some degree, is it not? Think of "le weekend" en français. Or people in the UK using the American-English "I guess". Seomra is a loanword in Irish from the French chambre, and it's been there centuries, as far as I know. I suppose when the loanwords start to dominate the language then you do have a problem, which they call a pidgin. But Irish is relatively resistant to that, isn't it? It's always coming up with words of its own like French usually is, no? That's the written form though, the fillers are in everyday speech and that's the part of the language I care far more about. An imported filler feels like you're betraying your mother tongue, polluting the new target language if that's not too crude a thing to say. I'd totally agree with leaving the idea of good Irish and slang up to the native speakers, we can't second judge them. "Sea" is also there with a while, and you can always interchange with "tá!". Looking at the dictionary, "só" seems to be already reserved as the word for comfort/peace of mind or luxury? Do we not have "mar sin" to mean "so"? I like "anseo" as it reminds one of "alors" in French, "allora" in Italian or "alors" and "bueno" in Spanish. As I mention below, however, this may be a calque way of thinking. "Mar sin" might be more natural. I get the impression there are 3 methods of translation from one tongue to another: loanword (with or without modification; mod process known as anglicisation, gaelisation etc), transliterate (word for word translation aka calque) and translation of meaning (transferring the jist of an idea into another tongue using the dynamics of the new language). Professional translators preferring the last one, though it also requires more lucid and imaginative thinking. Could radio' instead of 'raidió' be a dialect thing? Even within Munster, I've heard a person from Waterford remark how those in the other end of the province were pronouncing their very own Gaeltacht, "An Rinn", strange (to her ears). English phonetically: rinnnnne vs riiiiiiiine.
You've touched on a lot here! _I wish there was native Gaelic filler words that could step into its place_ These absolutely exist, and could make a fun video! _Could 'radio' instead of 'raidió' be a dialect thing_ It could indeed be. _I've heard a person from Waterford remark how those in the other end of the province were pronouncing their very own Gaeltacht, "An Rinn", strange (to her ears)_ This is absolutely dialectal. Munster is very consistent, but across munster (and indeed the country) you see a variation in how 'll' and 'nn' (amongst some other consonants) are pronounced as well as what happen to vowels that precede them. For example 'rinn' gets pronounced (very approximately!) as 'rín' in Kerry, 'ríng' in Cork and 'ryng' where the 'y' approximates the english word 'eye'. So you can already see how the regions vary a little with the slender 'nn' more or less being a slender 'ng' sound in Cork and Ring but a regular slender 'n' in Kerry. Furthermore the 'nn' in this case causes a lengthening in the prior vowel sound from 'i' to 'í' in Kerry and Cork and in Ring it gets diphthongised (a diphthong being a single vowel sounds made up of two vowel sounds, think the 'o' sound in 'own' in English, your lips move throughout the vowel sound even though we native speakers perceive it as a single vowel sound). Interestingly enough, the lengthening/diphthong disappears when a vowel follows the 'nn'. So in something like 'gaeilge na Rinne', 'Rinne' is pronounced as 'rine' in Kerry and 'ringe' in Cork and Ring! I wouldn't let your head spin about this though. Picking up these variations is akin to hearing a variation in someones English, you notice them as you're exposed to a wider array of speakers.
Extremely useful!
I love that you sourced sound clips from native speakers. Your pacing is great too. This is really, really useful!
Ba mhaith liom níos mó físeáin mar seo don idirmheán leibhéal ! …An-ghreannmhar, cabhrach, agus agus eolas mór ann. maith thú a chara!
Físeán iontach! Tá ceist agam duit mura miste leat, cé chomh fada atá tú ag foghlaim Gaeilge?
Ní miste! Deacair a rá, bhínn im chónaí sa Ghaeltacht ar feadh bliana nuair a bhíos i bhfad níos óige ach táim ag athfhoghlaim le bliain go leith anuas b’fhéidir
@@davelearnsirish Ó go maith, ní raibh a fhios agam riamh. Cén Gaeltacht?
Gaeltacht na Rinne, fad an lá!
@@davelearnsirish oh iontach, beidh mé ag dul go dtí an Gaeltacht an samhradh seo
*PromoSM*