hey Andy, the invite to your discord is no longer valid, can you please provide another?
@timhorton65028 күн бұрын
Hello again Andy, I'm having trouble with the output ciecuitry on my V9958 video card and I need your help. Do you think you could give me the necessary commands needed to get some form of video output from the V9958 (that isn't just a blank screen)? I need this instruction sequence to be very robust and idiot-proof as I have no way of knowing if my video signal circuitry works.
@shanehebert39610 күн бұрын
I'm one of those folks who likes to either run on actual hardware or just run in an emulator. I like the idea of an actual 6502, eZ80, or whatever system. I'm completely OK with X16 using an FPGA for a graphics and sound 'card'. From what I gathered (and could be completely wrong), the graphics subsystem is a lot like the old VGA cards... the FPGA is basically a bunch of hardware implemented drawing routines. Even though I understand the design decisions, I don't like Agon Light's take on the graphics subsystem as much... basically because it is literally just faster computer than the host. As far as FPGA systems, I'd rather just download a software emulator. Don't get me wrong... I've worked with FPGAs in the past and like to see their efforts and doing things, it just doesn't interest me enough to own one rather than just save the money and software emulate. I think something that would be cool would be like an Agon Light2 (or Console8) with the Vera from the X16, removing the ESP32 entirely... think of the X16 with a fast eZ80 instead of the 6502 ;) I know why a lot of people like the 6502... it's in the machines they started out with and likely the first learned assembly (that would be me, too... I taught myself 6502 on my Apple ][+ back when I was in high school) but I just like other CPUs better ;) So... as I'm not interested in making my own computer at this time, I will buy, or not buy, the things that other people make.
@RockTo1120 күн бұрын
The best Z80 computer, is of course, the Amstrad CPC range.
@andyhu954213 күн бұрын
And your image has an Amiga ball on it?
@RockTo1112 күн бұрын
@@andyhu9542 Yes, it does.
@Dani_Jz23 күн бұрын
Eh, I don't think I agree with you. Like yes, unfounded vitriol and hate-spewing is bad, but I haven't seen any personal attacks on the 8 bit guy or Perifractic. For Internet drama, this whole situation is remarkably tame. The Commander X16 is a terrible product, that is being picked up by the media due to a very aggressive PR push. In such a situation, I don't see it as fundamentally unethical to do a like-for-like comparison in favor of one's own less hyped, better product. It's not even 'Genesis does what NintenDon't' levels of adversary advertising, it's just a simple down to earth comparison. Also, I don't see how this would somehow 'damage' the retro community. If people formed militant groups hating on each other, then sure it would be potentially damaging, but we're adults now, aren't we... and providing deserved criticism on an overhyped, overpriced vanity project is totally within the bounds of normal social behavior between nerds.
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
The original video is tame. But there are plenty of personal attacks under an X16 video. People are openly calling the 8-bit guy a scammer. I don't think you have looked through the comment section of videos about those products. My observation is that people are forming militant group, and people are hating on each other. A small section of the community, yes, but these groups have a tendency to grow.
@Dani_Jz22 күн бұрын
@@andyhu9542 I very rarely read KZread comments. Usually check the top few. But you know what, I'm not surprised. Haters gonna hate and all that. But your video was focusing on / calling out the Byte Attic video, not the comment trolls. So I addressed that, and said I don't think it's warranted to call them out on this. I happen to agree with them, and I find their work absolutely amazing and deserving of proper recognition and money, and the points raised in the video you criticized both civilized and valid. The mere presence of comment trolls shouldn't make speaking out against a hyped business or project inherently unethical. I'm sure in the grand scheme of things, there is an equal amount of comment trolls who are die hard 8 bit guy stans.
@andyhu954221 күн бұрын
@@Dani_Jz I'm not criticizing the content of the video (In fact I said I agree with it to a point of making the same arguments in a completely independent video!), but the form it is presented. You can have 100% valid points in your video and promote negative feelings among people. No human behavior is spontaneous. No 'haters' will pop out of the ground and just 'gonna hate' no matter what you do. Making a video ridiculing the 8-bit guy as some stupid scammer will make more haters.
@SproutyPottedPlant23 күн бұрын
I can’t hate it, it has an FM sound chip! No software yet that you like? Who needs that when you have the power to command the Yamaha YM2151 and it’s PSG like sidekick VERA with a REAL tracker and possibility to add MIDI!!
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
There are people in the retro community beyond chiptune fans... The 2151 should really be a add-on card instead of built-in default sound system. In that way the main system is cheaper, more people will buy it, economics of scale kick in, and you can then enjoy beautiful FM and MIDI music for less!
@sandwichtube24 күн бұрын
If you don’t know the Z80 stop watching this video. It is not meant for inferiors.
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
I promise I will make a Z80 explained in detail video at some point.
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
I promise I will make a Z80 explained in detail video at some point.
@AlsGeekLab24 күн бұрын
Do you think you'd be able to the 80286 or 8088 to do protected mode??
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
The 80286 already has a protected mode. It's extremely crude but technically it will protect. People just don't care about it and use it as a fast 8088. I don't think I can protect the 8088, the bus is too complicated and some edge cases will slip through the cracks causing malicious code gaining system access.
@AlsGeekLab22 күн бұрын
@@andyhu9542 the 80286s protected mode is so bad was basically never used. I wish there was a way to shim an app so that you could tell a non protected mode app in DOS to become protected and behave properly
@andyhu954221 күн бұрын
@@AlsGeekLab There is indeed a way. I think Microsoft did it with Windows/286 and many third-party multitasking OSes on PC also did something similar.
@AlsGeekLab21 күн бұрын
@@andyhu9542 yes, but they still don't behave. For example, when I run TCP software that needs to run in the background and I go to my word processor then swap back, the system halts. It would be great to have true backgrounding rather than task swapping
@stephenwhite50624 күн бұрын
Nice work! I also find that JLCPCB is way less expensive than PCBWay. The quality is just as good, however stay away from the purple solder mask as, for some reason, I find for that colour only it has quality issues. Four layer boards are so much better for signals when you use the inner layers for power and ground. You should try an auto router. I use Kicad and FreeRouting. I do a lot of designs and it speeds up development by orders of magnitude. It makes editing/moving components quick and easy. Also, the final boards tend to be much smaller than hand routed ones.
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
My board is MATX so there is little point to make it 'much smaller'. I will move to a four-layer design eventually but currently I need to be able to cut traces including power and ground. Thanks for the advice anyway!
@inoppi25 күн бұрын
Haters gonna hate. If you know how to build it better then do it. Personally I just like watching David's journey with his hobby computer even though I would never buy one myself.
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
I like it, too! Before I see your comment I cannot pinpoint what exactly do I like about the project. It's the journey, the feeling of finally achieving something after years of hard work.
@VEGANVANIA28 күн бұрын
It's one thing to say, "this is a ripoff for the average consumer", and it's another thing to say, "this is a ripoff for the people 'volunteering' to create software for it". From the latter perspective, Pico-8 was bad, but this is worse.
@novh4ck14 күн бұрын
Nobody will ever make money creating software for any of these new retro systems. People who develop for them do it because it's a fun hobby and they like to share their progress and talk about it with the rest of the community. Calling somebody doing their hobby as "volunteering" is a completely incorrect take and honestly kinda insulting.
@winstonsmith47828 күн бұрын
Problem solved: cheap MiSTer FPGA DE10 NANO clone + classic PC core of your choice. kzread.info/dash/bejne/p6FlpaaAlbfWd7A.html
@AndreFachat2Ай бұрын
I was trying to understand how the switch between modes actually works, but the documentation only seems to describe the different modes. And the discord link is expired. Where can I read up on this actually works?
@andyhu954226 күн бұрын
I'm busy producing the documents, and videos explaining the mode switching process. You can subscribe to my channel if you don't want to miss that video.
@901aerolАй бұрын
The 8bitguy is high off his own fumes.
@drbponyАй бұрын
I felt the need to comment... Neither the Commander X16 nor the AgonLight are "retro computers". They are a new product BASED on retro computers. They're both an offshoot of already existing products. They're better classified as "hobbyist computers" since they don't have a pre-existing legacy of hardware nor software. It's up to users to come up with both. If I want a vintage computer experience, I don't need a X16 nor Agon to do that since other existing machines fill that void better than either of these new products. What I DO want is a device that I can build something with, but without learning any new skills. I know how to work with electronics and how to program in BASIC. This IMO is the only void these products can really fill. Which one would YOU recommend? I won't tell you which one I already bought.
@stephenvalente3296Ай бұрын
I applaud the aspiration, but lost interest early on due to things like cost and the fact I have lots of original hardware, so didn't really see what it would add for me personally.
@andyhu954225 күн бұрын
I think it's mostly for people who don't own original hardware as prices have gone up quite a bit. But as you have said, they missed the mark by setting an even higher price.
@Jonteponte712 күн бұрын
@@andyhu9542 It's been explained many, many times that this version of the X16 is the development version and there are plans for at least two iterations of cost-reduced versions. All you have to do is wait. But people get very upset when they have to wait unfortunately. They want to have stuff now and for cheap. Because that is how consumer electronics have worked for the last 20 years now...
@shinzon0Ай бұрын
That is not a feature of the Z80, hence I consider this clickbait. You just add some logic to the Z80 to meet your needs, as everybody else does. Thus, you are a good system engineer, but the title is highly misleading. You say it yourself in the end...
@andyhu954225 күн бұрын
Well it earned me almost 700k views and bootstrapped the channel, and get some people interested in retro Z80 stuff again. So I consider it a win for me and the community, one which can't be achieved without a little bit of clickbait, unfortunately. I would dispute the 'as everybody else does' part: so far I haven't seen one design that changes/enhanced the behavior of the Z80 so much as I did.
@ZombieFartDevАй бұрын
the x16 is a new ewaste piece of shit, any pi can run circleas around that shit
@andyhu954225 күн бұрын
But guess what? You cannot write a piece of code for the Pi directly to the hardware without signing an NDA with Broadcom. The X16 runs circles around the Pi in terms of hardware openness.
@novh4ck14 күн бұрын
pi is an ewaste piece of shit, any 64 core Intel Xeon server can run circles around that shit
@vyziaАй бұрын
totally will be buying a full kit once available!
@andyhu954226 күн бұрын
Your voice is being heard!
@WXSTANGАй бұрын
I cant help but think khumanity missed the boat with Zylog. The design was superior to the intel equiv but were beat out by corporate greed.
@andyhu954225 күн бұрын
I don't think so... If you say the Z8000 then maybe. But the 8086 is pretty much what Faggin would have designed if his hands weren't tied to the back by binary compatibility with the 8080. Too many instructions are stuffed into the DD/ED/FD prefix space that the encoding is inefficient. By the way, the company's name is Z'i'log.
@usermanicoАй бұрын
dude, dont worry about the influence, with all the work you have now you have it!
@lincrusteАй бұрын
well I know jackshit about z80 or CPUs but I felt like commenting too.
@Mi-583Ай бұрын
Are you in Australia at the moment?
@andyhu954226 күн бұрын
Nope, why?
@Mi-58326 күн бұрын
@@andyhu9542 10 days ago. Because I walked past somebody who looked like you.
@andyhu954225 күн бұрын
@@Mi-583 I was on the other side of the earth from Australia 10 days ago (almost).
@Mi-58322 күн бұрын
@@andyhu9542 lol! 👍
@danielduncan576Ай бұрын
As an owner and assembler of the original Altair 8800 kit in 1975, I have been enjoying your videos for several years. All I have left of the Altair is the original 1k memory board, a 64k board I added later, and the original 8080. Unfortunately I lent it to a former student, after I had moved on to a Z80 computer, and it died in a garage fire, along with a 256k memory board. Keep up the good work with your videos!
@AshWeststarАй бұрын
Congrats on getting it working!
@kilosierraalphaАй бұрын
Andy, great job! Yes, I would like an option to get a full kit.
@andyhu954226 күн бұрын
Coming soon!
@DefaultFlameАй бұрын
I'm not (very) familiar with the Z80, I'm just kinda interested in retro computing. However, this seems to me to be a brilliant solution that is elegant in its implementation.
@andyhu954225 күн бұрын
Thank you!
@sparthirАй бұрын
I like the more relaxed and off the cuff chat about the project. The outtakes are fantastic too. 😊
@GeoffryGifariАй бұрын
must be so satisfying
@MichaelWilliams-lr4mbАй бұрын
"The resurgeance of retro computing didn't start until 2018 or 2019". I'm not sure that's true. I was into retro computing well before that, and there were plenty of others too.
@andyhu954225 күн бұрын
From an interview I saw with Bill Herd, the 2000s and 2010s are the dark ages for the retro computing community (golden ages for collectors). Demoscenes are inactive, forums are maintained by a few enthusiastic members and many old machines are binned since they are perceived as 'worthless'.
@curiousmind4870Ай бұрын
The thing is what the X16 was going to be and what really is. It's what the Agon video uses to show they achieved the premises set by the 8 bit guy. Ok, it's obvious the idea for the X16 was to have a board more like the ones from the 80s. But the use of chips no longer produced is a problem. I guess somebody will always come with a solution, but if not? Besides all that they are different beasts, I like the graphics from the X16 and the flexibility of the Agon. If I could I would have both. A huge load of work and brains were put on both computers, cheers to both teams.
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
Cheers to both teams!
@FlyingPhilUKАй бұрын
Personally, I do like the look of the SpectrumNext - it's a well executed product that fulfills the brief of having an 8-bit looks and feel, whilst offering nice graphics with a good enough resolution and sprites & sound etc. As an added bonus it's fully Spectrum compatible. As another added bonus, because it's FPGA-based it can be reloaded with a few other cores, like some of the simpler Arcade cores, or BBC micro etc. - its price is good and the quality of the case and manual etc looks good. The only problem is that it's not in production very often! The Mega65 seems expensive, and the architecture has some quirks causing it to need a large FPGA but not really provide that much more capability than the Spectrum Next - I have a Nexus DDR board that runs a cut down version of the Mega65 core. Got it off e-bay, so quite cheap. I think the 666Euro asking price of the Mega65 is too much. My actual favorite Retro system is the Mister FPGA system - which allows great emulation of hundreds of Arcade systems and consoles and computers - I would really recommend this system for anyone interested in hardware based retro computing... I can see the attraction of a real CPU based product but as you say, you end up needing to add an FPGA (or in the Agon's case, a 240MHz 32-bit CPU!) in order to make it do something interesting.. - I guess it's a matter of personal choice if the limitations of a real CPU are worth having .. Another retro-like system is a Raspberry Pi running RISC OS - the OS that the first ARM systems ran on - it really does have a retro-feel, and you can jump into the command line with F12, and you get a very BBC Micro like experience... for all £15!
@FlyingPhilUKАй бұрын
I've often thought about just doing an FPGA-only retro computer... based on something like a Xilinx A35T or A100T - the Digilent Arty boards are relatively cheap (though actually still a bit expensive) and the Nexsys A7 is also a possibilty - then you have some limitations in terms of FPGA space and memory performance but still possible to a do a reasonable system - I guess you have also considered those, as you mention the RISC-V SOC (Saxxon SOC?)
@FlyingPhilUKАй бұрын
You ought to consider the 65c816 - it clocks fast and allows good access to 24-bit addressing... - a bit more interesting than sticking with the Z80 or 6502 (IMO)
@andyhu954225 күн бұрын
I don't know whether you have seen the instruction set of the 65C816: it's less '24-bit addressing' and more '256 16-bit address spaces glued together'. This makes the extended memory very clumsy to use and is the reason why I'm not using the 65C816.
@FlyingPhilUK25 күн бұрын
@@andyhu9542 Yes, I do know the instruction set - and it looks interesting to me. I did a lot of 6502 programming back in the day, and going back to that doesn't really appeal .. lot and lots of instructions to do anything. The 65C816 would be interesting as it's 6502-like, but with many more instructions and addressing modes. I've done some Z80 coding, but not a huge amount... anyway, it's just my personal opinion... 65c816 is 8-bit, but with some new things to learn...
@andyhu954225 күн бұрын
@@FlyingPhilUK Then I would suggest looking at the SNES or Apple IIGS. Both systems are superior to the one mentioned in this video in terms of sound and graphics. I like to 'pair' or 'balance' my systems, and those two systems are (in my opinion) suitable pairing for the 65C816. Putting a 65C816 in this system is like putting a V12 in a civic.
@FlyingPhilUK23 күн бұрын
@@andyhu9542 Yes, those were the two successful products that used the 'c816... - I'll probably have a go at a '816 project based on something from the Mister Project...
@FlyingPhilUK23 күн бұрын
The c816 is just an enhanced 6502.. and your VDP is quite fancy.. better than Apple II GS and probably better than SNES...
@peteratkin3788Ай бұрын
The Commander X16 does not deserve the hate, was not aware of this, however I'm going to get one.
@drbponyАй бұрын
It's for sale right now. Are you gonna go buy one?
@suvetarАй бұрын
In fairness, DM *did* state that it was a *dream* computer, not necessarily what he'd produce - at that point, it was just another one of his *aspirational" videos. I notice over time that he does often, or did, contradict himself ... I personally went off his work, videos stopped interesting me because of things like that. Also, I got the feeling that he and his texelec buddy were hoping they'd got the next "Apple II" on their hands and tried to tool up appropriately. Just a feeling of course - don't quote me on that.of course, but in that mind set, I'm sure a wave soldering station would work up a lot cheaper than PCB Way? Andy - Am I missing something about your controller there; should that have been posted on the 1st of april? Doesn't an 8 bit interface register 256 possibilities? Confused!
@andyhu9542Ай бұрын
My controller design fully utilizes the 256 combinations of 8 digital signal. There are 4 'normal' buttons, which can be pressed down individually, that's 16 combinations. There are 4 directions, which can be pressed in 8 ways: up, down, left, right and 4 diagonal directions. However, the player cannot press opposite directions (like up AND down) due to the physical structure of the controller, that leaves some combination for me to use. I encoded the select button as 'pressing up and down at the same time' and start as 'pressing left and right at the same time'. Then between direction pad and start and select I get another 16 combinations. 16 times 16 is 256, bingo.
@thecorruptedbit5585Ай бұрын
The CX16 seems most successful as a CHIP-8 kind of project - the fact that you can just spin it up on an emulator from the very start is commendable.
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
Agree. The CHIP-8 is literally called 'fantasy console' and the CX16 is 'dream computer'. See the link?
@choppergirlАй бұрын
You know, in the 1990's people were throwing this old rubbish out by dumpster full. And for good reason, actually. I'd swoop in and scoop it all up and bring it home by the pickup truck load. I often quipped, all old computers eventually come to me to die, because I was the last one in the chain to save and love them. They all ended up in my barn. Now I find it bizarre you folks want to clean them up and fire them up again. Even I haven't fired them up since the 1980's.... There's just not enough time in the day to hook up a C=64 or Apple ] [ any more...
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
If you don't have time to play with those old computers, I would love to purchase them. People fire up their old computers because they are fed up with the new ones. Modern computers are filled with ads and distractions and prompts that are not for your interest. Everything is a subscription and/or behind a paywall.
@TommyTheMoochАй бұрын
These projects always make me excited and nostalgic, but I don't get it. There's a reason why we moved on from 8-bit computing. Why not enjoy the devices as they were? We can also make a better fax machine .. but why?
@joel23018228 күн бұрын
because 40yo devices are dying and are expensive
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
@@joel230182 Exactly. The X16 started off as a reproduction machine but with a improved graphics chip. It did spiral out of control a little. Also, there is a reason why people are moving back to 8-bit computing. It's a trend that cannot be ignored.
@joel23018222 күн бұрын
@@andyhu9542 Absolutely, 8-bit computing offers a unique aesthetic/experience. The immediacy of just pressing start and play. No input lag. People can't get enough of pixel art. Newer generations are inheriting/acquiring nostalgia for retro machines(which is beautiful). The opportunity of touching the inner soul of a machine without intermediate abstractions. Also retro machines have their own distinct flavor as oppossed to modern machines that look and feel the exact same. And more. And I think that applies to other retro machines as well, such as 16 & 32 bit. Even the Mattel Aquarius is getting revived. What a time to be alive!
@256byteramАй бұрын
My only critique of the critique is the perspective on the price of the X16. Considering the cost of getting the project off the ground, sourcing parts, assembling the end product, paying people, overheads, and considering the Commodore 64 in 1983 was $300 (about $900 in 2023 according to the Wikipedia article), $475 starts to sound pretty reasonable IMO.
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
A big chunk of that cost is paying for the big dip solder machine that they never used in production. The price is reasonable, but it could have been cheaper if the team did not make unexperienced engineering mistakes.
@paulscottrobson19 күн бұрын
@@andyhu9542 I *think* the first thing they did was buy a pile of keyboards purpose designed, a decision that I still consider mad. If you are designing the hardware or software for these things the cost isn't money, it's time. You need a few parts, some test equipment and so on, some prototype PCBs when you get further down the line, but it's mainly time to design and implement. The construction thing is mad. Agon is a good example of this ; the original Agon was a bit overengineered, but wasn't designed for production, so it was quite expensive (though not $500). Olimex took it on and kept the same design, replacing some parts with cheaper equivalents and produced it to sell for about £50 or so. One wonders what they would have done with the CX16. Probably halved the price.
@andyhu954213 күн бұрын
@@paulscottrobson I have solid proof that they can halve the price. There is a project called OtterX16, it is $250, half the initial price with plenty of space for further cost-cutting.
@paulscottrobson12 күн бұрын
@@andyhu9542 There was an earlier version called the "X8" which was designed by Frank van der Hoef, which I think was an FPGA design, and probably would have come out at maybe $100 ish ? It was pretty much the same thing, the hardware could be mapped onto a RAM page and it was 50% faster. The downside was less RAM, 64k only graphics memory I think. Apparently it wasn't "authentic" (e.g. a real processor) and not sensibly makeable as a kit. The real problem which @thebyteattic identified in the blog posts, which are much less sarcastic, is there's no clear direction about what it's for, what they want. I still think David Murray should have stuck to his original concept (except the price would be too low, it would cost $50-60 minimum, and it would always need FPGA/Microcontroller support). In the end you can design the best retrocomputer in the world, but if people can't access them cheaply and easily, you have a limited uptake.
@paulscottrobsonАй бұрын
Andy, I liked this video and you seem a sensible guy, but the video wasn't about cash. Bernardo Kastrup (Byte Attic) is retired, and has made (or maybe inherited, I don't know) sufficient to basically continually design computers for fun (which you do yourself I think !). He has never made a penny directly from sales of Agon (or anything else). He is close with a Home Computer museum near Eindhoven in NL, and they produced a few initial kits, but the vast majority are produced by Olimex, who while they are on good terms with him, are financially completely seperate. (Kastrup did actually offer to redesign the X16 properly for free without any payment or accreditation) It should also be noted that directness is a Dutch trait, they have their own word for it :) I didn't care for the video either. I think many of his criticisms are valid, but I don't think the "poking the bear" approach helps. I'd quite like to see your video (or script). Disclaimer: I'm the firmware guy on the Neo6502 project which is a sort of competitor (but about 1/10 of the price !)
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
I learned about that fact after I posted this video. And I learned that directness being a Dutch trait from your comment. I'm learning a lot from the community (and clearly have a lot to learn)! I would also like to redesign the X16 for free, as you can see from my list of improvements that I think would be good for the project. I would also like to have a Neo6502, but I cannot find any documentation or tutorial that would allow me to use the tile engine on the Neo6502.
@paulscottrobson12 күн бұрын
@@andyhu9542 Proper documentation is being planned as I write ; I'm looking at 1980s manuals for ideas and styles.
@ichigen511Ай бұрын
100% agree! Who else is making modern retro?! We have room for all of these projects and we should be supporting ALL OF THEM. What's so wrong with your life (speaking to the haters) that you have hate for any of these projects?
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
I think the haters' argument is that those machines are sold way too expensively to capitalize on the hype, which is a civilized way of saying 'borderline scam'. There are many things wrong with this idea, but ignoring or trivializing the haters will only make them stronger.
@ichigen511Ай бұрын
Foenix Retro Systems kind of killing the scene right now. No FPGAs at all. Pure old school. Edit: To be sure I want to support 8-bit Guy's project and make a legit arcade cabinet/game with his board. Encourage more of this!
@paulscottrobsonАй бұрын
They all have FPGAs in.
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
Foenix computers make heavy use of FPGA for both sound and graphics. The sound can technically be original SIDs, but those chips are super expensive these days. And the graphics chip is pure FPGA design.
@cosmefulanito5933Ай бұрын
It is incredible that today something as basic as this has to be explained: Disagreeing does not mean being a hater. The project makes no sense anywhere. Using a video system that has more processing power than the system's own central processor is stupid. It's good that friend Murray wants to do his business. But using a processor as BAD as the Commodore 64? COME ON!
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
'Using a video system that has more processing power than the system's own central processor' is not 'stupid'. It's literally all computing devices that we use every day. Phones, laptops, desktops, game consoles, everything that's more complex than a smart thermostat has more power in its GPU than its CPU. The issue arises when a subsystem can run the main system in emulation. Disagreeing is not hating, but ridiculing someone else's project is. Finally, the X16's processor is like 8 C64 stacked on top of each other. For throwing tiles around, it's not THAT bad. In fact, no games to date have managed to exhaust the X16's CPU performance.
@bennylofgren3208Ай бұрын
The RST instruction is not a "reset" instruction, but it is short for "restart". Big difference.
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
You and a million others have pointed this out in the comment section.
@Cherijo78Ай бұрын
I have plenty of problems with the x16's current design (e.g. It's built for an ATX case, but they turned an expansion header 90 degrees last minute for a cartridge port, the main supported case doesn't have enough clearance or slots in the back for expansion cards, etc etc). Nonetheless, I think the project team, including David, have been pretty transparent explaining the changes and issues, warts/mistakes and all, as they went. It's nothing unusual IMHO. I would like to take a moment and praise one major thing they did right IMHO, and that's the choice to go with a standard keyboard layout. I understand why people like custom keyboards and all, but damn they add expense to a project. What's more, it makes using emulators of the products even more difficult than it needs to be. To me, that's inexcusable in a modern retro project design. It's what personally drove me from liking other modern retro projects [unnamed]. The availability of emulators is, I think, a key to allowing a modern retro computer to spread out. This, to me, means that it needs to be compatible with modern keyboard layouts, without funky additions, custom keyboards, or other quirks that will degrade the experience with the emulator. I very much understand the idea of liking older layouts for many reasons. I believe firmly though that if you want to build a project that's accessible for those who can't afford the custom hardware, it needs to be standard keyboard layout compatible in the modern era. Letting go is hard, but using an emulator with a non-standard layout is also annoying and difficult for n00bs. It's time to ease that barrier and let custom project keyboard go outside of specific replacement parts, and I think the Commander x16 project nailed this aspect. Even though I can't afford the hardware as a low income person, I'm able to use the emulator without thinking twice about my keyboard layout, and that is amazing IMHO.
@andyhu954222 күн бұрын
Well, bad news for you: my Z80 computer project uses a custom keyboard layout that swaps Ctrl and Caps Lock (and maybe others) to simplify key combos (I hate the position of the Ctrl key). The good news is that the keys are still the same, and everything will work on an emulator. Just some programs that make heavy use of Ctrl key will give you a sore pinky, like they do on modern keyboards.
@JG-nm9zkАй бұрын
Why does it use all through hole components and isn't sold as a kit? Why isn't the design open hardware and the software atleast source available? Why is the documentation sooo bad?
@throwaway6478Ай бұрын
_Why does it use all through hole components and isn't sold as a kit?_ David has said multiple times that, while he would have liked to offer it as a kit, he didn't want the support burden of helping people assemble it (or crying to him when they bugger something up). _Why isn't the design open hardware_ "Open hardware" is a completely meaningless statement, and I wish people would stop using it. _and the software atleast source available?_ Because it's licensed code from Cloanto (the current copyright holders of Commodore ROMs), and those are the terms. 6502 code isn't hard to follow though, grab your fave disassembler and get going, licensing terms be damned. _Why is the documentation sooo bad?_ This is a legitimate gripe. While I think the rest of the architecture is pretty well documented (because they're all off-the-shelf parts), the VERA docs are terrible. David's under the impression that having a Wiki for X16 documentation is some sort of magic bullet, and he couldn't be more wrong.
@JG-nm9zkАй бұрын
@@throwaway6478 Open hardware means the schematic and gerber files are available. It means anybody could make the board. Its not meaningless. I was mostly talking about the vhdl for the fpga. Why isn't that available? Or the source for the ATTiny? All of these are to be anti competitive. How will the x16 ever hit a "critical mass" so there is actually software available for it if it is locked down. It could never be an educational platform in it's current state. The goals of the project don't align with what it actually is.
@paulscottrobsonАй бұрын
@@throwaway6478 The kit was unworkable and he was told this repeatedly at the start. The *only* way you can do a kit is PCB + Vera, source everything else yourself. For the reasons you state. It probably is open hardware, near enough. The Cloanto licensing limits software, but it's indicative of the issues that they ever did this. Working on it is horrendous.
@sergeinester6261Ай бұрын
In the truest spirit of 8 bit computers historically has always been a sense of tribalism. If you had a speccy, amstrad or c64 you were always trying to best your friends about your system you had. Sure things are “different” now bit in someways the tribalism is there but on a different level as it is tribalism about the hardware not the software.
@SianaGearzАй бұрын
I honestly don't like/care about either of them I would say. Which means I'm not buying one, easy as that. May they do what they like. I do appreciate all classic computers. Even the wonky ones. They are such a vital part of our tapestry all of them. I actually want to build a discrete SMD Leningrad 48k variant. Why? Why not. Will it be good? What sort of a question is that, who ever in their right mind expects a Leningrad 48k to be good?
Пікірлер
great video, really enjoyed watching it.
hey Andy, the invite to your discord is no longer valid, can you please provide another?
Hello again Andy, I'm having trouble with the output ciecuitry on my V9958 video card and I need your help. Do you think you could give me the necessary commands needed to get some form of video output from the V9958 (that isn't just a blank screen)? I need this instruction sequence to be very robust and idiot-proof as I have no way of knowing if my video signal circuitry works.
I'm one of those folks who likes to either run on actual hardware or just run in an emulator. I like the idea of an actual 6502, eZ80, or whatever system. I'm completely OK with X16 using an FPGA for a graphics and sound 'card'. From what I gathered (and could be completely wrong), the graphics subsystem is a lot like the old VGA cards... the FPGA is basically a bunch of hardware implemented drawing routines. Even though I understand the design decisions, I don't like Agon Light's take on the graphics subsystem as much... basically because it is literally just faster computer than the host. As far as FPGA systems, I'd rather just download a software emulator. Don't get me wrong... I've worked with FPGAs in the past and like to see their efforts and doing things, it just doesn't interest me enough to own one rather than just save the money and software emulate. I think something that would be cool would be like an Agon Light2 (or Console8) with the Vera from the X16, removing the ESP32 entirely... think of the X16 with a fast eZ80 instead of the 6502 ;) I know why a lot of people like the 6502... it's in the machines they started out with and likely the first learned assembly (that would be me, too... I taught myself 6502 on my Apple ][+ back when I was in high school) but I just like other CPUs better ;) So... as I'm not interested in making my own computer at this time, I will buy, or not buy, the things that other people make.
The best Z80 computer, is of course, the Amstrad CPC range.
And your image has an Amiga ball on it?
@@andyhu9542 Yes, it does.
Eh, I don't think I agree with you. Like yes, unfounded vitriol and hate-spewing is bad, but I haven't seen any personal attacks on the 8 bit guy or Perifractic. For Internet drama, this whole situation is remarkably tame. The Commander X16 is a terrible product, that is being picked up by the media due to a very aggressive PR push. In such a situation, I don't see it as fundamentally unethical to do a like-for-like comparison in favor of one's own less hyped, better product. It's not even 'Genesis does what NintenDon't' levels of adversary advertising, it's just a simple down to earth comparison. Also, I don't see how this would somehow 'damage' the retro community. If people formed militant groups hating on each other, then sure it would be potentially damaging, but we're adults now, aren't we... and providing deserved criticism on an overhyped, overpriced vanity project is totally within the bounds of normal social behavior between nerds.
The original video is tame. But there are plenty of personal attacks under an X16 video. People are openly calling the 8-bit guy a scammer. I don't think you have looked through the comment section of videos about those products. My observation is that people are forming militant group, and people are hating on each other. A small section of the community, yes, but these groups have a tendency to grow.
@@andyhu9542 I very rarely read KZread comments. Usually check the top few. But you know what, I'm not surprised. Haters gonna hate and all that. But your video was focusing on / calling out the Byte Attic video, not the comment trolls. So I addressed that, and said I don't think it's warranted to call them out on this. I happen to agree with them, and I find their work absolutely amazing and deserving of proper recognition and money, and the points raised in the video you criticized both civilized and valid. The mere presence of comment trolls shouldn't make speaking out against a hyped business or project inherently unethical. I'm sure in the grand scheme of things, there is an equal amount of comment trolls who are die hard 8 bit guy stans.
@@Dani_Jz I'm not criticizing the content of the video (In fact I said I agree with it to a point of making the same arguments in a completely independent video!), but the form it is presented. You can have 100% valid points in your video and promote negative feelings among people. No human behavior is spontaneous. No 'haters' will pop out of the ground and just 'gonna hate' no matter what you do. Making a video ridiculing the 8-bit guy as some stupid scammer will make more haters.
I can’t hate it, it has an FM sound chip! No software yet that you like? Who needs that when you have the power to command the Yamaha YM2151 and it’s PSG like sidekick VERA with a REAL tracker and possibility to add MIDI!!
There are people in the retro community beyond chiptune fans... The 2151 should really be a add-on card instead of built-in default sound system. In that way the main system is cheaper, more people will buy it, economics of scale kick in, and you can then enjoy beautiful FM and MIDI music for less!
If you don’t know the Z80 stop watching this video. It is not meant for inferiors.
I promise I will make a Z80 explained in detail video at some point.
I promise I will make a Z80 explained in detail video at some point.
Do you think you'd be able to the 80286 or 8088 to do protected mode??
The 80286 already has a protected mode. It's extremely crude but technically it will protect. People just don't care about it and use it as a fast 8088. I don't think I can protect the 8088, the bus is too complicated and some edge cases will slip through the cracks causing malicious code gaining system access.
@@andyhu9542 the 80286s protected mode is so bad was basically never used. I wish there was a way to shim an app so that you could tell a non protected mode app in DOS to become protected and behave properly
@@AlsGeekLab There is indeed a way. I think Microsoft did it with Windows/286 and many third-party multitasking OSes on PC also did something similar.
@@andyhu9542 yes, but they still don't behave. For example, when I run TCP software that needs to run in the background and I go to my word processor then swap back, the system halts. It would be great to have true backgrounding rather than task swapping
Nice work! I also find that JLCPCB is way less expensive than PCBWay. The quality is just as good, however stay away from the purple solder mask as, for some reason, I find for that colour only it has quality issues. Four layer boards are so much better for signals when you use the inner layers for power and ground. You should try an auto router. I use Kicad and FreeRouting. I do a lot of designs and it speeds up development by orders of magnitude. It makes editing/moving components quick and easy. Also, the final boards tend to be much smaller than hand routed ones.
My board is MATX so there is little point to make it 'much smaller'. I will move to a four-layer design eventually but currently I need to be able to cut traces including power and ground. Thanks for the advice anyway!
Haters gonna hate. If you know how to build it better then do it. Personally I just like watching David's journey with his hobby computer even though I would never buy one myself.
I like it, too! Before I see your comment I cannot pinpoint what exactly do I like about the project. It's the journey, the feeling of finally achieving something after years of hard work.
It's one thing to say, "this is a ripoff for the average consumer", and it's another thing to say, "this is a ripoff for the people 'volunteering' to create software for it". From the latter perspective, Pico-8 was bad, but this is worse.
Nobody will ever make money creating software for any of these new retro systems. People who develop for them do it because it's a fun hobby and they like to share their progress and talk about it with the rest of the community. Calling somebody doing their hobby as "volunteering" is a completely incorrect take and honestly kinda insulting.
Problem solved: cheap MiSTer FPGA DE10 NANO clone + classic PC core of your choice. kzread.info/dash/bejne/p6FlpaaAlbfWd7A.html
I was trying to understand how the switch between modes actually works, but the documentation only seems to describe the different modes. And the discord link is expired. Where can I read up on this actually works?
I'm busy producing the documents, and videos explaining the mode switching process. You can subscribe to my channel if you don't want to miss that video.
The 8bitguy is high off his own fumes.
I felt the need to comment... Neither the Commander X16 nor the AgonLight are "retro computers". They are a new product BASED on retro computers. They're both an offshoot of already existing products. They're better classified as "hobbyist computers" since they don't have a pre-existing legacy of hardware nor software. It's up to users to come up with both. If I want a vintage computer experience, I don't need a X16 nor Agon to do that since other existing machines fill that void better than either of these new products. What I DO want is a device that I can build something with, but without learning any new skills. I know how to work with electronics and how to program in BASIC. This IMO is the only void these products can really fill. Which one would YOU recommend? I won't tell you which one I already bought.
I applaud the aspiration, but lost interest early on due to things like cost and the fact I have lots of original hardware, so didn't really see what it would add for me personally.
I think it's mostly for people who don't own original hardware as prices have gone up quite a bit. But as you have said, they missed the mark by setting an even higher price.
@@andyhu9542 It's been explained many, many times that this version of the X16 is the development version and there are plans for at least two iterations of cost-reduced versions. All you have to do is wait. But people get very upset when they have to wait unfortunately. They want to have stuff now and for cheap. Because that is how consumer electronics have worked for the last 20 years now...
That is not a feature of the Z80, hence I consider this clickbait. You just add some logic to the Z80 to meet your needs, as everybody else does. Thus, you are a good system engineer, but the title is highly misleading. You say it yourself in the end...
Well it earned me almost 700k views and bootstrapped the channel, and get some people interested in retro Z80 stuff again. So I consider it a win for me and the community, one which can't be achieved without a little bit of clickbait, unfortunately. I would dispute the 'as everybody else does' part: so far I haven't seen one design that changes/enhanced the behavior of the Z80 so much as I did.
the x16 is a new ewaste piece of shit, any pi can run circleas around that shit
But guess what? You cannot write a piece of code for the Pi directly to the hardware without signing an NDA with Broadcom. The X16 runs circles around the Pi in terms of hardware openness.
pi is an ewaste piece of shit, any 64 core Intel Xeon server can run circles around that shit
totally will be buying a full kit once available!
Your voice is being heard!
I cant help but think khumanity missed the boat with Zylog. The design was superior to the intel equiv but were beat out by corporate greed.
I don't think so... If you say the Z8000 then maybe. But the 8086 is pretty much what Faggin would have designed if his hands weren't tied to the back by binary compatibility with the 8080. Too many instructions are stuffed into the DD/ED/FD prefix space that the encoding is inefficient. By the way, the company's name is Z'i'log.
dude, dont worry about the influence, with all the work you have now you have it!
well I know jackshit about z80 or CPUs but I felt like commenting too.
Are you in Australia at the moment?
Nope, why?
@@andyhu9542 10 days ago. Because I walked past somebody who looked like you.
@@Mi-583 I was on the other side of the earth from Australia 10 days ago (almost).
@@andyhu9542 lol! 👍
As an owner and assembler of the original Altair 8800 kit in 1975, I have been enjoying your videos for several years. All I have left of the Altair is the original 1k memory board, a 64k board I added later, and the original 8080. Unfortunately I lent it to a former student, after I had moved on to a Z80 computer, and it died in a garage fire, along with a 256k memory board. Keep up the good work with your videos!
Congrats on getting it working!
Andy, great job! Yes, I would like an option to get a full kit.
Coming soon!
I'm not (very) familiar with the Z80, I'm just kinda interested in retro computing. However, this seems to me to be a brilliant solution that is elegant in its implementation.
Thank you!
I like the more relaxed and off the cuff chat about the project. The outtakes are fantastic too. 😊
must be so satisfying
"The resurgeance of retro computing didn't start until 2018 or 2019". I'm not sure that's true. I was into retro computing well before that, and there were plenty of others too.
From an interview I saw with Bill Herd, the 2000s and 2010s are the dark ages for the retro computing community (golden ages for collectors). Demoscenes are inactive, forums are maintained by a few enthusiastic members and many old machines are binned since they are perceived as 'worthless'.
The thing is what the X16 was going to be and what really is. It's what the Agon video uses to show they achieved the premises set by the 8 bit guy. Ok, it's obvious the idea for the X16 was to have a board more like the ones from the 80s. But the use of chips no longer produced is a problem. I guess somebody will always come with a solution, but if not? Besides all that they are different beasts, I like the graphics from the X16 and the flexibility of the Agon. If I could I would have both. A huge load of work and brains were put on both computers, cheers to both teams.
Cheers to both teams!
Personally, I do like the look of the SpectrumNext - it's a well executed product that fulfills the brief of having an 8-bit looks and feel, whilst offering nice graphics with a good enough resolution and sprites & sound etc. As an added bonus it's fully Spectrum compatible. As another added bonus, because it's FPGA-based it can be reloaded with a few other cores, like some of the simpler Arcade cores, or BBC micro etc. - its price is good and the quality of the case and manual etc looks good. The only problem is that it's not in production very often! The Mega65 seems expensive, and the architecture has some quirks causing it to need a large FPGA but not really provide that much more capability than the Spectrum Next - I have a Nexus DDR board that runs a cut down version of the Mega65 core. Got it off e-bay, so quite cheap. I think the 666Euro asking price of the Mega65 is too much. My actual favorite Retro system is the Mister FPGA system - which allows great emulation of hundreds of Arcade systems and consoles and computers - I would really recommend this system for anyone interested in hardware based retro computing... I can see the attraction of a real CPU based product but as you say, you end up needing to add an FPGA (or in the Agon's case, a 240MHz 32-bit CPU!) in order to make it do something interesting.. - I guess it's a matter of personal choice if the limitations of a real CPU are worth having .. Another retro-like system is a Raspberry Pi running RISC OS - the OS that the first ARM systems ran on - it really does have a retro-feel, and you can jump into the command line with F12, and you get a very BBC Micro like experience... for all £15!
I've often thought about just doing an FPGA-only retro computer... based on something like a Xilinx A35T or A100T - the Digilent Arty boards are relatively cheap (though actually still a bit expensive) and the Nexsys A7 is also a possibilty - then you have some limitations in terms of FPGA space and memory performance but still possible to a do a reasonable system - I guess you have also considered those, as you mention the RISC-V SOC (Saxxon SOC?)
You ought to consider the 65c816 - it clocks fast and allows good access to 24-bit addressing... - a bit more interesting than sticking with the Z80 or 6502 (IMO)
I don't know whether you have seen the instruction set of the 65C816: it's less '24-bit addressing' and more '256 16-bit address spaces glued together'. This makes the extended memory very clumsy to use and is the reason why I'm not using the 65C816.
@@andyhu9542 Yes, I do know the instruction set - and it looks interesting to me. I did a lot of 6502 programming back in the day, and going back to that doesn't really appeal .. lot and lots of instructions to do anything. The 65C816 would be interesting as it's 6502-like, but with many more instructions and addressing modes. I've done some Z80 coding, but not a huge amount... anyway, it's just my personal opinion... 65c816 is 8-bit, but with some new things to learn...
@@FlyingPhilUK Then I would suggest looking at the SNES or Apple IIGS. Both systems are superior to the one mentioned in this video in terms of sound and graphics. I like to 'pair' or 'balance' my systems, and those two systems are (in my opinion) suitable pairing for the 65C816. Putting a 65C816 in this system is like putting a V12 in a civic.
@@andyhu9542 Yes, those were the two successful products that used the 'c816... - I'll probably have a go at a '816 project based on something from the Mister Project...
The c816 is just an enhanced 6502.. and your VDP is quite fancy.. better than Apple II GS and probably better than SNES...
The Commander X16 does not deserve the hate, was not aware of this, however I'm going to get one.
It's for sale right now. Are you gonna go buy one?
In fairness, DM *did* state that it was a *dream* computer, not necessarily what he'd produce - at that point, it was just another one of his *aspirational" videos. I notice over time that he does often, or did, contradict himself ... I personally went off his work, videos stopped interesting me because of things like that. Also, I got the feeling that he and his texelec buddy were hoping they'd got the next "Apple II" on their hands and tried to tool up appropriately. Just a feeling of course - don't quote me on that.of course, but in that mind set, I'm sure a wave soldering station would work up a lot cheaper than PCB Way? Andy - Am I missing something about your controller there; should that have been posted on the 1st of april? Doesn't an 8 bit interface register 256 possibilities? Confused!
My controller design fully utilizes the 256 combinations of 8 digital signal. There are 4 'normal' buttons, which can be pressed down individually, that's 16 combinations. There are 4 directions, which can be pressed in 8 ways: up, down, left, right and 4 diagonal directions. However, the player cannot press opposite directions (like up AND down) due to the physical structure of the controller, that leaves some combination for me to use. I encoded the select button as 'pressing up and down at the same time' and start as 'pressing left and right at the same time'. Then between direction pad and start and select I get another 16 combinations. 16 times 16 is 256, bingo.
The CX16 seems most successful as a CHIP-8 kind of project - the fact that you can just spin it up on an emulator from the very start is commendable.
Agree. The CHIP-8 is literally called 'fantasy console' and the CX16 is 'dream computer'. See the link?
You know, in the 1990's people were throwing this old rubbish out by dumpster full. And for good reason, actually. I'd swoop in and scoop it all up and bring it home by the pickup truck load. I often quipped, all old computers eventually come to me to die, because I was the last one in the chain to save and love them. They all ended up in my barn. Now I find it bizarre you folks want to clean them up and fire them up again. Even I haven't fired them up since the 1980's.... There's just not enough time in the day to hook up a C=64 or Apple ] [ any more...
If you don't have time to play with those old computers, I would love to purchase them. People fire up their old computers because they are fed up with the new ones. Modern computers are filled with ads and distractions and prompts that are not for your interest. Everything is a subscription and/or behind a paywall.
These projects always make me excited and nostalgic, but I don't get it. There's a reason why we moved on from 8-bit computing. Why not enjoy the devices as they were? We can also make a better fax machine .. but why?
because 40yo devices are dying and are expensive
@@joel230182 Exactly. The X16 started off as a reproduction machine but with a improved graphics chip. It did spiral out of control a little. Also, there is a reason why people are moving back to 8-bit computing. It's a trend that cannot be ignored.
@@andyhu9542 Absolutely, 8-bit computing offers a unique aesthetic/experience. The immediacy of just pressing start and play. No input lag. People can't get enough of pixel art. Newer generations are inheriting/acquiring nostalgia for retro machines(which is beautiful). The opportunity of touching the inner soul of a machine without intermediate abstractions. Also retro machines have their own distinct flavor as oppossed to modern machines that look and feel the exact same. And more. And I think that applies to other retro machines as well, such as 16 & 32 bit. Even the Mattel Aquarius is getting revived. What a time to be alive!
My only critique of the critique is the perspective on the price of the X16. Considering the cost of getting the project off the ground, sourcing parts, assembling the end product, paying people, overheads, and considering the Commodore 64 in 1983 was $300 (about $900 in 2023 according to the Wikipedia article), $475 starts to sound pretty reasonable IMO.
A big chunk of that cost is paying for the big dip solder machine that they never used in production. The price is reasonable, but it could have been cheaper if the team did not make unexperienced engineering mistakes.
@@andyhu9542 I *think* the first thing they did was buy a pile of keyboards purpose designed, a decision that I still consider mad. If you are designing the hardware or software for these things the cost isn't money, it's time. You need a few parts, some test equipment and so on, some prototype PCBs when you get further down the line, but it's mainly time to design and implement. The construction thing is mad. Agon is a good example of this ; the original Agon was a bit overengineered, but wasn't designed for production, so it was quite expensive (though not $500). Olimex took it on and kept the same design, replacing some parts with cheaper equivalents and produced it to sell for about £50 or so. One wonders what they would have done with the CX16. Probably halved the price.
@@paulscottrobson I have solid proof that they can halve the price. There is a project called OtterX16, it is $250, half the initial price with plenty of space for further cost-cutting.
@@andyhu9542 There was an earlier version called the "X8" which was designed by Frank van der Hoef, which I think was an FPGA design, and probably would have come out at maybe $100 ish ? It was pretty much the same thing, the hardware could be mapped onto a RAM page and it was 50% faster. The downside was less RAM, 64k only graphics memory I think. Apparently it wasn't "authentic" (e.g. a real processor) and not sensibly makeable as a kit. The real problem which @thebyteattic identified in the blog posts, which are much less sarcastic, is there's no clear direction about what it's for, what they want. I still think David Murray should have stuck to his original concept (except the price would be too low, it would cost $50-60 minimum, and it would always need FPGA/Microcontroller support). In the end you can design the best retrocomputer in the world, but if people can't access them cheaply and easily, you have a limited uptake.
Andy, I liked this video and you seem a sensible guy, but the video wasn't about cash. Bernardo Kastrup (Byte Attic) is retired, and has made (or maybe inherited, I don't know) sufficient to basically continually design computers for fun (which you do yourself I think !). He has never made a penny directly from sales of Agon (or anything else). He is close with a Home Computer museum near Eindhoven in NL, and they produced a few initial kits, but the vast majority are produced by Olimex, who while they are on good terms with him, are financially completely seperate. (Kastrup did actually offer to redesign the X16 properly for free without any payment or accreditation) It should also be noted that directness is a Dutch trait, they have their own word for it :) I didn't care for the video either. I think many of his criticisms are valid, but I don't think the "poking the bear" approach helps. I'd quite like to see your video (or script). Disclaimer: I'm the firmware guy on the Neo6502 project which is a sort of competitor (but about 1/10 of the price !)
I learned about that fact after I posted this video. And I learned that directness being a Dutch trait from your comment. I'm learning a lot from the community (and clearly have a lot to learn)! I would also like to redesign the X16 for free, as you can see from my list of improvements that I think would be good for the project. I would also like to have a Neo6502, but I cannot find any documentation or tutorial that would allow me to use the tile engine on the Neo6502.
@@andyhu9542 Proper documentation is being planned as I write ; I'm looking at 1980s manuals for ideas and styles.
100% agree! Who else is making modern retro?! We have room for all of these projects and we should be supporting ALL OF THEM. What's so wrong with your life (speaking to the haters) that you have hate for any of these projects?
I think the haters' argument is that those machines are sold way too expensively to capitalize on the hype, which is a civilized way of saying 'borderline scam'. There are many things wrong with this idea, but ignoring or trivializing the haters will only make them stronger.
Foenix Retro Systems kind of killing the scene right now. No FPGAs at all. Pure old school. Edit: To be sure I want to support 8-bit Guy's project and make a legit arcade cabinet/game with his board. Encourage more of this!
They all have FPGAs in.
Foenix computers make heavy use of FPGA for both sound and graphics. The sound can technically be original SIDs, but those chips are super expensive these days. And the graphics chip is pure FPGA design.
It is incredible that today something as basic as this has to be explained: Disagreeing does not mean being a hater. The project makes no sense anywhere. Using a video system that has more processing power than the system's own central processor is stupid. It's good that friend Murray wants to do his business. But using a processor as BAD as the Commodore 64? COME ON!
'Using a video system that has more processing power than the system's own central processor' is not 'stupid'. It's literally all computing devices that we use every day. Phones, laptops, desktops, game consoles, everything that's more complex than a smart thermostat has more power in its GPU than its CPU. The issue arises when a subsystem can run the main system in emulation. Disagreeing is not hating, but ridiculing someone else's project is. Finally, the X16's processor is like 8 C64 stacked on top of each other. For throwing tiles around, it's not THAT bad. In fact, no games to date have managed to exhaust the X16's CPU performance.
The RST instruction is not a "reset" instruction, but it is short for "restart". Big difference.
You and a million others have pointed this out in the comment section.
I have plenty of problems with the x16's current design (e.g. It's built for an ATX case, but they turned an expansion header 90 degrees last minute for a cartridge port, the main supported case doesn't have enough clearance or slots in the back for expansion cards, etc etc). Nonetheless, I think the project team, including David, have been pretty transparent explaining the changes and issues, warts/mistakes and all, as they went. It's nothing unusual IMHO. I would like to take a moment and praise one major thing they did right IMHO, and that's the choice to go with a standard keyboard layout. I understand why people like custom keyboards and all, but damn they add expense to a project. What's more, it makes using emulators of the products even more difficult than it needs to be. To me, that's inexcusable in a modern retro project design. It's what personally drove me from liking other modern retro projects [unnamed]. The availability of emulators is, I think, a key to allowing a modern retro computer to spread out. This, to me, means that it needs to be compatible with modern keyboard layouts, without funky additions, custom keyboards, or other quirks that will degrade the experience with the emulator. I very much understand the idea of liking older layouts for many reasons. I believe firmly though that if you want to build a project that's accessible for those who can't afford the custom hardware, it needs to be standard keyboard layout compatible in the modern era. Letting go is hard, but using an emulator with a non-standard layout is also annoying and difficult for n00bs. It's time to ease that barrier and let custom project keyboard go outside of specific replacement parts, and I think the Commander x16 project nailed this aspect. Even though I can't afford the hardware as a low income person, I'm able to use the emulator without thinking twice about my keyboard layout, and that is amazing IMHO.
Well, bad news for you: my Z80 computer project uses a custom keyboard layout that swaps Ctrl and Caps Lock (and maybe others) to simplify key combos (I hate the position of the Ctrl key). The good news is that the keys are still the same, and everything will work on an emulator. Just some programs that make heavy use of Ctrl key will give you a sore pinky, like they do on modern keyboards.
Why does it use all through hole components and isn't sold as a kit? Why isn't the design open hardware and the software atleast source available? Why is the documentation sooo bad?
_Why does it use all through hole components and isn't sold as a kit?_ David has said multiple times that, while he would have liked to offer it as a kit, he didn't want the support burden of helping people assemble it (or crying to him when they bugger something up). _Why isn't the design open hardware_ "Open hardware" is a completely meaningless statement, and I wish people would stop using it. _and the software atleast source available?_ Because it's licensed code from Cloanto (the current copyright holders of Commodore ROMs), and those are the terms. 6502 code isn't hard to follow though, grab your fave disassembler and get going, licensing terms be damned. _Why is the documentation sooo bad?_ This is a legitimate gripe. While I think the rest of the architecture is pretty well documented (because they're all off-the-shelf parts), the VERA docs are terrible. David's under the impression that having a Wiki for X16 documentation is some sort of magic bullet, and he couldn't be more wrong.
@@throwaway6478 Open hardware means the schematic and gerber files are available. It means anybody could make the board. Its not meaningless. I was mostly talking about the vhdl for the fpga. Why isn't that available? Or the source for the ATTiny? All of these are to be anti competitive. How will the x16 ever hit a "critical mass" so there is actually software available for it if it is locked down. It could never be an educational platform in it's current state. The goals of the project don't align with what it actually is.
@@throwaway6478 The kit was unworkable and he was told this repeatedly at the start. The *only* way you can do a kit is PCB + Vera, source everything else yourself. For the reasons you state. It probably is open hardware, near enough. The Cloanto licensing limits software, but it's indicative of the issues that they ever did this. Working on it is horrendous.
In the truest spirit of 8 bit computers historically has always been a sense of tribalism. If you had a speccy, amstrad or c64 you were always trying to best your friends about your system you had. Sure things are “different” now bit in someways the tribalism is there but on a different level as it is tribalism about the hardware not the software.
I honestly don't like/care about either of them I would say. Which means I'm not buying one, easy as that. May they do what they like. I do appreciate all classic computers. Even the wonky ones. They are such a vital part of our tapestry all of them. I actually want to build a discrete SMD Leningrad 48k variant. Why? Why not. Will it be good? What sort of a question is that, who ever in their right mind expects a Leningrad 48k to be good?