Very interesting conversation. I do appreciate the simple approach and metaphors used by Robert.
@TalkingRoadmaps3 күн бұрын
It takes a lot of work to make things that simple! We loved this conversation too. It was great to find roadmapping coming from a different "school" but fundamentally with the same core goals and principles.
@andrewdebona52557 күн бұрын
great session, thanks - commit to outcomes was a great takeaway and driving behavior change rather then delivering features
@TalkingRoadmaps7 күн бұрын
Glad enjoyed it and got that key takeaway from Jeff!
@ramyaram22 күн бұрын
Totally agree!!
@TalkingRoadmaps20 күн бұрын
Is that everything you agree with? Or was there one key takeaway for you?
@ramyaram22 күн бұрын
This is top notch!!. Thank you!!
@TalkingRoadmaps20 күн бұрын
Glad you enjoyed Dan's episode. What was your favourite bit?
@highopayАй бұрын
I just hear him talking "be credible" "make sure there is evidence..." but not a single time how to actually achieve this. And that is the hard part. Of course a roadmap is only valuable when there is enough confidence that the thing is not utter bullshit. With some things that were mentioned, like prototyping, feasability analysis, they can make some projects take twice the time. So is getting started early and learn on the journey more important or research and analyze before to make more accurate roadmaps?
@TalkingRoadmapsАй бұрын
If you do the right thing and it takes longed (it should not take anywhere near 2x!) but you don't waste your time doing the wrong things you will end up making more progress in less time. The urge to just build it is seductive. Often a feasibility prototype is hours (or at most days) of work. It's just a form of discovery. That allows you to take out risk and drive up confidence quickly and cheaply. You phrase it as an either or, do a lot of up front work or get started. We'd argue it is both. Get started. Write down what you think is the right direction of travel, include the uncertainty and discovery in the roadmap. Then do the discovery and refine. After a few short iterations that initial uncertainty is driven down in the short term stuff and you are showing the areas you are understanding further out. Hint: if you put the customer problems on the roadmap they also tend to be pretty stable - the discovery tends to just help you better understand them and through that refine the solution you will deliver to address them.
@highopayАй бұрын
@@TalkingRoadmaps That's surely an explanation that makes sense on paper or for some teams. I'm working for a company where we develop one huge product with almost 20 teams. There is so many dependencies (yes we are also in the process of untangling them) that every discovery/prototype won't show very clear results quickly. You could argue that this is our fault with having still many remains of a big monolyth but probably the truth for many other "older" companies out there. So there is no way we can proof the concept good enough in a few days to give a seemingly accurate roadmap for a year or two year long project :(
@TalkingRoadmapsАй бұрын
@@highopay you somewhat answer your own questions. The only real way to scale product work is to descale the work, striving to minimise the dependencies. But you also hint at a key point at the end, a roadmap is not a project plan. It's job is not to provide delivery certainty in a proJEct context. Its job is to communicate and align direction of travel in a proDUct context. By asking a roadmap to do too many jobs we make it do them all badly. In a product context our goal is to ship little and often. But that said we also have to consider the domain. In some domains they are complex - which means that the only sensible way to have certainty is to use methods like agile and lean (aka discovery) - most software fits in this. On the other hand some domains are complicated - which means that planning and analysis are the best approach to take - most physical products fall here. The hard part comes when you have a mixture. Neither mean you can't do discovery to rerisk and increase certainty - the question is how far you want to go with that. You likely can't eliminate risk in a couple of days but you can probably take 50+% of it out. I work with old and new companies alike helping them with this sort of thing.
@DaurenKurkenovАй бұрын
Would it be possible to add some visual examples?
@TalkingRoadmapsАй бұрын
Visual examples of roadmaps? If so we have a bunch of visual guides in the works so that sort of thing is coming.
@WoodyW2k2 ай бұрын
Love this.
@dankelly2 ай бұрын
Just say "never give a date". What company has enough people or enough time to do feasibility prototypes for every new thing they work on?
@TalkingRoadmaps2 ай бұрын
I don't think it is that simple. It's all about risk. There are times (business reality) that you need to give a date, so you invest in feasibility discovery there. Similalry if feasibility is the biggest risk you should invest in that. Like everything in product "it depends".
@richardarussell2 ай бұрын
What company has enough people or enough time NOT to do feasibility prototypes for every new thing they work on? I mean, unless you're working on things for which feasibility isn't a risk at all - but then you wouldn't really have a problem to solve, because you'd be able to predict dates reliably in the first place. Are predicted dates reliable? If so, you don't have feasibility risks, so probably won't get much value from feasibility prototypes. If the predicted dates are unreliable, do the dates matter? If not, your feasibility risks aren't material and so it's not worth having dates or feasibility prototypes - just go ahead and start working and finish when you're done. I hope your business and customers are OK with that! If the predicted dates are unreliable, and this matters, then .... invest in the feasibility prototypes, because you can't afford not to. Which is it?
@dankelly2 ай бұрын
@@TalkingRoadmaps I'll take "it depends". Just like, "when will that new feature be done?" It depends on how many other things I have to work on at the same time and how many quality, experienced people I have to work on them.
@teodoragenova14873 ай бұрын
Hey Justin & Teresa! Thanks for the absolute great episode. I was wondering, can you point out to where I can find the product vision video of Dropbox. I tried KZread, but wasn't available, or at least I didn't recognise it. Thanks!
@saroshmawani68013 ай бұрын
Awesome as always. Thanks for the insightful conversation.
@billjenkins15354 ай бұрын
April is one of the best podcast interviewees. Knows her stuff and is stoked about it and talking about it.
@TalkingRoadmaps4 ай бұрын
It was a fun chat circling around positioning, roadmapping and the evolving role of product management and marketing!
@timgwallis4 ай бұрын
CEO’s shouldn’t only stay out of the “how”, they should stay out of the “what” as well. The effective use of the C-Suite is co-creating the desired outcomes from the “whats” of the value-delivery teams, along with the intended business impacts of those outcomes.
@TalkingRoadmaps4 ай бұрын
It's not that simple. At time the CEO is one of 2-3 people in the company and so they absolutely get involved with how and what. When the business gets large then absolutely the CEO is best focusing on "why" and the outcomes. That said there is a whole spectrum between those stages with different levels of involvement. Regardless the CEO is likely to want to know what the team is working and the direction they are taking things.
@Entrepreneur_in_progress4 ай бұрын
The customer advisory board is a very interesting concept, keeping the teams and executives close to customers.
@TalkingRoadmaps4 ай бұрын
CABs are super powerful, you can partner them with User Panels as well to get both the senior and operational views in B2B. They provide lots of insight and engagement.
@angstrom10584 ай бұрын
No, I just use nav on my phone. I had an "road atlas" once, with lots of road maps (/sarc)
@TalkingRoadmaps4 ай бұрын
Satnav is just a digital roadmap with guidance. The risk is you end up on auto-pilot and paying attention so you take the wrong term. The same thing can happen if you treat your product roadmap that way ;)
@DanielWinterstein Жыл бұрын
Far too much of this rings true!
@TalkingRoadmaps Жыл бұрын
So true right, roadmapping is hard!
@JohntyRay Жыл бұрын
Great discussion , I think C in RICE should be statistical confidence
@TalkingRoadmaps Жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoyed the discussion! Statistical confidence would be a focus on Quant, it's important, but you can't always quantify things. Product is messy and often depends on Qual. I love Amazon's attitude of data supported by anecdotes for making decisions, and if the anecdotes disagree with the data trust them instead, then I go looking for new data! @ItamarGilad has an approach to confidence that I like, he tends to just use ICE instead of RICE but his way of getting a confidence number is powerful. CHeck it out here: itamargilad.com/the-tool-that-will-help-you-choose-better-product-ideas/
@svetlanadeyneka9498 Жыл бұрын
Thanks it was very interesting
@TalkingRoadmaps Жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it!
@shellers163 Жыл бұрын
Is it just me or is there no sound to this?
@TalkingRoadmaps Жыл бұрын
There is no sound on the sketchcotes - they were an experiment that we did and couldn't decide what audio to add to them! They are a summary of the previous episode.
@TalkingRoadmaps Жыл бұрын
On the other hand if we started doing them again… what sort of sound would you want / expect on this sort of content?
@shellers163 Жыл бұрын
@@TalkingRoadmaps I would like some commentary on the major points. Firstly, I'd like to see (and hear) the roadmap, first!! The structure of what you are going to say - it gives viewers a reason to keep watching - honestly I didn't watch it all the first time round. Essentially the Orange Rectangles - I would add Benefits to the major points and maybe reformat the last orange rectangles to be subheading rather than headings. After the roadmap is clear - then you can fill in the details. Also - align the title with the content. The title is "Focus on the highest risk" - it appears in the first speech bubble 5 times - but then we have to wait until right at the end to see the word risk - it almost seems an after thought not the main content. Just thoughts - I hope they are helpful. Happy to have a call and describe in more detail. Best Wishes. Keith
@TalkingRoadmaps Жыл бұрын
@@shellers163 thanks for your feedback, we'll keep it in mind if we start doing the sketchnotes again.
@WoodyW2k2 жыл бұрын
Huge congratulations on your book launch, Daniel. We loved having you on the channel and hearing your thoughts about innovation in the B2B space and the first 10 customer map. 👏🏻
@TalkingRoadmaps2 жыл бұрын
And his Product Management IoT course here... courses.danielelizalde.com/p/the-iot-pm
@TalkingRoadmaps2 жыл бұрын
If you fancy a sneak peak then grab a free chapter here... b2binnovator.com/
@TalkingRoadmaps2 жыл бұрын
Check out Daniel's book here... geni.us/TheB2BInnovatorsMap
Пікірлер
Very interesting conversation. I do appreciate the simple approach and metaphors used by Robert.
It takes a lot of work to make things that simple! We loved this conversation too. It was great to find roadmapping coming from a different "school" but fundamentally with the same core goals and principles.
great session, thanks - commit to outcomes was a great takeaway and driving behavior change rather then delivering features
Glad enjoyed it and got that key takeaway from Jeff!
Totally agree!!
Is that everything you agree with? Or was there one key takeaway for you?
This is top notch!!. Thank you!!
Glad you enjoyed Dan's episode. What was your favourite bit?
I just hear him talking "be credible" "make sure there is evidence..." but not a single time how to actually achieve this. And that is the hard part. Of course a roadmap is only valuable when there is enough confidence that the thing is not utter bullshit. With some things that were mentioned, like prototyping, feasability analysis, they can make some projects take twice the time. So is getting started early and learn on the journey more important or research and analyze before to make more accurate roadmaps?
If you do the right thing and it takes longed (it should not take anywhere near 2x!) but you don't waste your time doing the wrong things you will end up making more progress in less time. The urge to just build it is seductive. Often a feasibility prototype is hours (or at most days) of work. It's just a form of discovery. That allows you to take out risk and drive up confidence quickly and cheaply. You phrase it as an either or, do a lot of up front work or get started. We'd argue it is both. Get started. Write down what you think is the right direction of travel, include the uncertainty and discovery in the roadmap. Then do the discovery and refine. After a few short iterations that initial uncertainty is driven down in the short term stuff and you are showing the areas you are understanding further out. Hint: if you put the customer problems on the roadmap they also tend to be pretty stable - the discovery tends to just help you better understand them and through that refine the solution you will deliver to address them.
@@TalkingRoadmaps That's surely an explanation that makes sense on paper or for some teams. I'm working for a company where we develop one huge product with almost 20 teams. There is so many dependencies (yes we are also in the process of untangling them) that every discovery/prototype won't show very clear results quickly. You could argue that this is our fault with having still many remains of a big monolyth but probably the truth for many other "older" companies out there. So there is no way we can proof the concept good enough in a few days to give a seemingly accurate roadmap for a year or two year long project :(
@@highopay you somewhat answer your own questions. The only real way to scale product work is to descale the work, striving to minimise the dependencies. But you also hint at a key point at the end, a roadmap is not a project plan. It's job is not to provide delivery certainty in a proJEct context. Its job is to communicate and align direction of travel in a proDUct context. By asking a roadmap to do too many jobs we make it do them all badly. In a product context our goal is to ship little and often. But that said we also have to consider the domain. In some domains they are complex - which means that the only sensible way to have certainty is to use methods like agile and lean (aka discovery) - most software fits in this. On the other hand some domains are complicated - which means that planning and analysis are the best approach to take - most physical products fall here. The hard part comes when you have a mixture. Neither mean you can't do discovery to rerisk and increase certainty - the question is how far you want to go with that. You likely can't eliminate risk in a couple of days but you can probably take 50+% of it out. I work with old and new companies alike helping them with this sort of thing.
Would it be possible to add some visual examples?
Visual examples of roadmaps? If so we have a bunch of visual guides in the works so that sort of thing is coming.
Love this.
Just say "never give a date". What company has enough people or enough time to do feasibility prototypes for every new thing they work on?
I don't think it is that simple. It's all about risk. There are times (business reality) that you need to give a date, so you invest in feasibility discovery there. Similalry if feasibility is the biggest risk you should invest in that. Like everything in product "it depends".
What company has enough people or enough time NOT to do feasibility prototypes for every new thing they work on? I mean, unless you're working on things for which feasibility isn't a risk at all - but then you wouldn't really have a problem to solve, because you'd be able to predict dates reliably in the first place. Are predicted dates reliable? If so, you don't have feasibility risks, so probably won't get much value from feasibility prototypes. If the predicted dates are unreliable, do the dates matter? If not, your feasibility risks aren't material and so it's not worth having dates or feasibility prototypes - just go ahead and start working and finish when you're done. I hope your business and customers are OK with that! If the predicted dates are unreliable, and this matters, then .... invest in the feasibility prototypes, because you can't afford not to. Which is it?
@@TalkingRoadmaps I'll take "it depends". Just like, "when will that new feature be done?" It depends on how many other things I have to work on at the same time and how many quality, experienced people I have to work on them.
Hey Justin & Teresa! Thanks for the absolute great episode. I was wondering, can you point out to where I can find the product vision video of Dropbox. I tried KZread, but wasn't available, or at least I didn't recognise it. Thanks!
Awesome as always. Thanks for the insightful conversation.
April is one of the best podcast interviewees. Knows her stuff and is stoked about it and talking about it.
It was a fun chat circling around positioning, roadmapping and the evolving role of product management and marketing!
CEO’s shouldn’t only stay out of the “how”, they should stay out of the “what” as well. The effective use of the C-Suite is co-creating the desired outcomes from the “whats” of the value-delivery teams, along with the intended business impacts of those outcomes.
It's not that simple. At time the CEO is one of 2-3 people in the company and so they absolutely get involved with how and what. When the business gets large then absolutely the CEO is best focusing on "why" and the outcomes. That said there is a whole spectrum between those stages with different levels of involvement. Regardless the CEO is likely to want to know what the team is working and the direction they are taking things.
The customer advisory board is a very interesting concept, keeping the teams and executives close to customers.
CABs are super powerful, you can partner them with User Panels as well to get both the senior and operational views in B2B. They provide lots of insight and engagement.
No, I just use nav on my phone. I had an "road atlas" once, with lots of road maps (/sarc)
Satnav is just a digital roadmap with guidance. The risk is you end up on auto-pilot and paying attention so you take the wrong term. The same thing can happen if you treat your product roadmap that way ;)
Far too much of this rings true!
So true right, roadmapping is hard!
Great discussion , I think C in RICE should be statistical confidence
Glad you enjoyed the discussion! Statistical confidence would be a focus on Quant, it's important, but you can't always quantify things. Product is messy and often depends on Qual. I love Amazon's attitude of data supported by anecdotes for making decisions, and if the anecdotes disagree with the data trust them instead, then I go looking for new data! @ItamarGilad has an approach to confidence that I like, he tends to just use ICE instead of RICE but his way of getting a confidence number is powerful. CHeck it out here: itamargilad.com/the-tool-that-will-help-you-choose-better-product-ideas/
Thanks it was very interesting
Glad you enjoyed it!
Is it just me or is there no sound to this?
There is no sound on the sketchcotes - they were an experiment that we did and couldn't decide what audio to add to them! They are a summary of the previous episode.
On the other hand if we started doing them again… what sort of sound would you want / expect on this sort of content?
@@TalkingRoadmaps I would like some commentary on the major points. Firstly, I'd like to see (and hear) the roadmap, first!! The structure of what you are going to say - it gives viewers a reason to keep watching - honestly I didn't watch it all the first time round. Essentially the Orange Rectangles - I would add Benefits to the major points and maybe reformat the last orange rectangles to be subheading rather than headings. After the roadmap is clear - then you can fill in the details. Also - align the title with the content. The title is "Focus on the highest risk" - it appears in the first speech bubble 5 times - but then we have to wait until right at the end to see the word risk - it almost seems an after thought not the main content. Just thoughts - I hope they are helpful. Happy to have a call and describe in more detail. Best Wishes. Keith
@@shellers163 thanks for your feedback, we'll keep it in mind if we start doing the sketchnotes again.
Huge congratulations on your book launch, Daniel. We loved having you on the channel and hearing your thoughts about innovation in the B2B space and the first 10 customer map. 👏🏻
And his Product Management IoT course here... courses.danielelizalde.com/p/the-iot-pm
If you fancy a sneak peak then grab a free chapter here... b2binnovator.com/
Check out Daniel's book here... geni.us/TheB2BInnovatorsMap