Vince what was the difference at the handle bars in terms of feel?
@vinceseyb2640Ай бұрын
Hey Wade, soft fork feels loose at the top of the stroke and comes to an abrupt stop were as stiff fork feels firm to the touch but linear throughout the stroke. The next step is to measure vibration at the bars. In conjunction with velocity data. Soft fork certainly sees more chassis motion.
@WadeSchneider-yb3hxАй бұрын
Vince giving you an update on the Honda Crf shock you detailed in an earlier video. I’ve built the shock part for part used the settings you recommended. Well I’ve got to say I’m impressed with it. The ride is firm but supple stays up in the stroke nicely seams to have a great amount of damping control. Just need to ride it in a couple more different places to really get more feedback.
@vinceseyb2640Ай бұрын
Hey Wade cheers for the feedback, I'm stoked you enjoy that shock setting I think you'll find it will do most things well and it offers a calm controlled but comfortable feeling. I have a pretty good no float fork setting to. I'm eager to see the 2025 crf settings because the press release tends to indicate they have moved to a firmer configuration.
@WadeSchneider-yb3hxАй бұрын
To give some better feedback the bike is a 2022 crf250rx the forks have the ride JBI pro valving with his titanium pro perch .49kg springs. The rear a 5.7kg spring with your complete setup. Just got back from another ride and I’ve got to say that the shock is an awesome match to the front forks haven’t touched a clicker yet - just superb performance and control. The boys over on TT need to get it together and at least give it a try. Excellent work Vince!
@vinceseyb2640Ай бұрын
Join our Facebook group facebook.com/share/p/8ib4P3ebQ5nJDwTa/?mibextid=oFDknk
@vinceseyb2640Ай бұрын
#include <Arduino.h> #include <SD.h> #include <SPI.h> File dataFile; int CS_pin = 10; int pow_pin = 8; unsigned long currentTime = millis(); unsigned long previousMillis = 0; const unsigned long interval = 5000; // 5 seconds interval void setup() { // initialize serial communication at 57600 bits per second: Serial.begin(230400); Serial.println("Initializing Card"); pinMode(CS_pin, OUTPUT); pinMode(pow_pin, OUTPUT); digitalWrite(pow_pin, HIGH); // check if card is ready if (!SD.begin(CS_pin)) { Serial.println("Card Failed"); return; } Serial.println("Card Ready"); dataFile = SD.open("log.txt", FILE_WRITE); } void loop() { unsigned long currentMillis = millis(); // Check if it's time to flush the file if (currentMillis - previousMillis >= interval) { previousMillis = currentMillis; // Save the last time you flushed String dataString = ""; dataString += String(currentMillis); dataString += ','; int sensorValue = analogRead(A0); float voltage = sensorValue * (325.0 / 1023.0); dataString += String(voltage); Serial.println(dataString); dataFile.println(dataString); dataFile.flush(); } String dataString = ""; dataString += String(millis()); dataString += ','; int sensorValue = analogRead(A0); float voltage = sensorValue * (325.0 / 1023.0); dataString += String(voltage); Serial.println(dataString); dataFile.println(dataString); delay (1); }
@jeanlavallee2887Ай бұрын
If you don't have enough velocity, this means the bump get transmitted to the chassis
@vinceseyb26402 ай бұрын
Whats really cool to see is the velocity plots are real life force vs displacement dyno graphs. Soft fork produces 53% more units under the trace (these would be velocity units ie m/s) but all these units come later in the stroke, beyond mid stroke really. Soft fork is indeed "softer" up to the point of peak velocity but beyond that it is stiffer. The real reality is that because we hit the same bump on the same bike at the same speed we produced the same energy. The variation is in how we dissipate that energy throughout the compression stroke. Soft fork epitomises mid stroke harshness because it does all the work late in the stroke.
@jeanlavallee28872 ай бұрын
Nice video. The problem with stiff forks in enduro is they deflect on rocks and roots.
@vinceseyb26402 ай бұрын
From my experience only when they are poorly configured. If you use a soft midvalve with a stiff base they will be harsh and deflective. If you tune the right balance, they'll have good hold up but move quickly with good control.
@Rob_6132 ай бұрын
If you’re of the opinion that crossovers are unnecessary, what are your thoughts on digressive setups?
@81806342 ай бұрын
Is that a great big LVDT on the front? I wonder how the factory teams measure suspension movement, they must have something internal but I've never seen it.
@vinceseyb26402 ай бұрын
Yeah and a $59.00 arduino unit sampling 500 times a second. KTM uses a rotary linear potentiometer reel with wire down to the brake bracket.
@81806342 ай бұрын
@@vinceseyb2640very cool. Do you mean KTM uses a rotary encoder with a string? Creative, though I suspect the LVDT will give better data.
@vinceseyb26402 ай бұрын
@@8180634 hopefully this link works www.vitalmx.com/features/vital-mx-pit-bits-2024-denver-supercross
@Rob_6132 ай бұрын
Where were the patents filed? I can’t find either of them.
@vinceseyb26402 ай бұрын
I've written down in my notebook showa patent 2017 10203013 and 2010 for the road bike number 8857582. Just Patents is the website.
@studio_tron2 ай бұрын
Simple, yet informative. Thank you for taking the time to make this video. I need to make a similar video with my bike and riding style. I don't hit jumps, but I assume I'm using the top 10% of my shock on the flats just as you are. I might want to adjust the sag in my front shock a bit more for my riding style (skill level) to get more performance.
@vinceseyb26402 ай бұрын
Cheers for the feedback.
@ronxdriver2 ай бұрын
you can go lighter, anyway nice idea ! still havnt seen them on MX bikes
@erikduley63582 ай бұрын
I think we are finally getting to the heart of the matter here. Nice one.
that is a vey informative vid Vincent…..I have been developing what I call a dual suspension system which is two working suspensions in series….exactly like shown in this vid….of coarse in my case it is damped forced vibration input which makes all the difference. keep going with your work mate…dont let the nay sayers win and keep at it…..it def seems to be a thing. :-)
@kylegarrett40713 ай бұрын
Can you share how the closed chamber fork valves effect the system? I’m grasping these concepts but am curious how to apply. Does a stiff base valve help build pressure with the mid v? What would the common tech be surprised to hear?
@vinceseyb26403 ай бұрын
Hey Kyle. I appreciate the support. The base valve certainly sets the tone of the pressure. If you want to get a good feel for how the relationship works start with your own bike, build a what you would normally call a "stiff" OEM base valve setting with a very light mid and 0.20 float. 300ml of oil your normal springs etc. Test then modify the mid only to no float. Let me know what bike and I'll give you some direction. To the last bit, that theres a phenomenon called dynamic stiffness, that is that a damper that produces a modest force on the dyno can become stiff on track due the way it handles high frequency inputs. Where as something "stiff" can ride plusher because it is impacted less.
@braaap62923 ай бұрын
Idk how people can be upset over damper hysteresis, it makes perfect sense, especially if you have any mechanical engineering knowledge.
@braaap62923 ай бұрын
This is the sort of stuff I spend hours trying to find, this is awesome.
@kylegarrett40713 ай бұрын
Thank you!!
@WadeSchneider-yb3hx3 ай бұрын
Vince very interesting series on pressure balancing. Why did you leave the 30x. 30 shim out of the rebound stack?
@vinceseyb26403 ай бұрын
Hey Thanks. Good spotting it's just a "typo" I scribbled it down in a hurry before making the video. The 30 was there and everything else is as I have it next video is on peak velocity and acceleration.
@erikduley63583 ай бұрын
Does the CRF shock have stock valves?
@vinceseyb26403 ай бұрын
Hi Erik. Stock pistons in the shock with a metal "low friction" piston band and the racetech rebound separator valve. The boys on TT love to give me a hard time. Hysteresis and pressure balancing isn't my concept, and a lot of the work I've presented throughout the videos is done by guys far smarter than myself. I simply want to share my thoughts on the subject and how I feel it relates to our industry.
@erikduley63583 ай бұрын
That was excellent Vince cheers. Honestly you look at all these Sim tools and you got to wonder. F1 teams always have problems with correlation despite billions of dollars investment in their tools. The Adrian Newy (Red Bull) rocks up with his drawing board and helps design the quickest car on the grid. Not to mention climate models - complete and utter wank.
@vinceseyb26403 ай бұрын
I should have said mills of oil not mm and when i talk about keeping it simple, just add and subtract shims (not stacks 🤦♂️) Utilize the shim factor to count the shims above the clamp shim. Start with a 0.10 = 1 then it goes as follows .15 = 3.38 (0.10s) .20 = 8 (0.10s) .25 = 15.8 (0.10s) .30 = 27 (0.10s) If you want to soften a stack to increase flow relative to pressure drop, reduce the overall shim count. Conversely to decrease flow relative to pressure add shims. The clamp OD can be useful too. Larger OD equals stiffer. A "stiff" adjuster stack or base valve relative to the main will delay the force build up, and make shock operate at higher internal pressures to net the same force as a well balanced damper. It will also produce significant hysteresis. Utilize the main piston/ mid valve to produce the bulk of the force via a decent pressure drop as it sees the largest portion of oil flow. Small consecutive bumps AREN'T low speed events but are actually high frequency. This requires a fast response damper which is best achieved minimizing the dampers internal pressure in particular the rebound chamber. Happy riding
Пікірлер
Vince what was the difference at the handle bars in terms of feel?
Hey Wade, soft fork feels loose at the top of the stroke and comes to an abrupt stop were as stiff fork feels firm to the touch but linear throughout the stroke. The next step is to measure vibration at the bars. In conjunction with velocity data. Soft fork certainly sees more chassis motion.
Vince giving you an update on the Honda Crf shock you detailed in an earlier video. I’ve built the shock part for part used the settings you recommended. Well I’ve got to say I’m impressed with it. The ride is firm but supple stays up in the stroke nicely seams to have a great amount of damping control. Just need to ride it in a couple more different places to really get more feedback.
Hey Wade cheers for the feedback, I'm stoked you enjoy that shock setting I think you'll find it will do most things well and it offers a calm controlled but comfortable feeling. I have a pretty good no float fork setting to. I'm eager to see the 2025 crf settings because the press release tends to indicate they have moved to a firmer configuration.
To give some better feedback the bike is a 2022 crf250rx the forks have the ride JBI pro valving with his titanium pro perch .49kg springs. The rear a 5.7kg spring with your complete setup. Just got back from another ride and I’ve got to say that the shock is an awesome match to the front forks haven’t touched a clicker yet - just superb performance and control. The boys over on TT need to get it together and at least give it a try. Excellent work Vince!
Join our Facebook group facebook.com/share/p/8ib4P3ebQ5nJDwTa/?mibextid=oFDknk
#include <Arduino.h> #include <SD.h> #include <SPI.h> File dataFile; int CS_pin = 10; int pow_pin = 8; unsigned long currentTime = millis(); unsigned long previousMillis = 0; const unsigned long interval = 5000; // 5 seconds interval void setup() { // initialize serial communication at 57600 bits per second: Serial.begin(230400); Serial.println("Initializing Card"); pinMode(CS_pin, OUTPUT); pinMode(pow_pin, OUTPUT); digitalWrite(pow_pin, HIGH); // check if card is ready if (!SD.begin(CS_pin)) { Serial.println("Card Failed"); return; } Serial.println("Card Ready"); dataFile = SD.open("log.txt", FILE_WRITE); } void loop() { unsigned long currentMillis = millis(); // Check if it's time to flush the file if (currentMillis - previousMillis >= interval) { previousMillis = currentMillis; // Save the last time you flushed String dataString = ""; dataString += String(currentMillis); dataString += ','; int sensorValue = analogRead(A0); float voltage = sensorValue * (325.0 / 1023.0); dataString += String(voltage); Serial.println(dataString); dataFile.println(dataString); dataFile.flush(); } String dataString = ""; dataString += String(millis()); dataString += ','; int sensorValue = analogRead(A0); float voltage = sensorValue * (325.0 / 1023.0); dataString += String(voltage); Serial.println(dataString); dataFile.println(dataString); delay (1); }
If you don't have enough velocity, this means the bump get transmitted to the chassis
Whats really cool to see is the velocity plots are real life force vs displacement dyno graphs. Soft fork produces 53% more units under the trace (these would be velocity units ie m/s) but all these units come later in the stroke, beyond mid stroke really. Soft fork is indeed "softer" up to the point of peak velocity but beyond that it is stiffer. The real reality is that because we hit the same bump on the same bike at the same speed we produced the same energy. The variation is in how we dissipate that energy throughout the compression stroke. Soft fork epitomises mid stroke harshness because it does all the work late in the stroke.
Nice video. The problem with stiff forks in enduro is they deflect on rocks and roots.
From my experience only when they are poorly configured. If you use a soft midvalve with a stiff base they will be harsh and deflective. If you tune the right balance, they'll have good hold up but move quickly with good control.
If you’re of the opinion that crossovers are unnecessary, what are your thoughts on digressive setups?
Is that a great big LVDT on the front? I wonder how the factory teams measure suspension movement, they must have something internal but I've never seen it.
Yeah and a $59.00 arduino unit sampling 500 times a second. KTM uses a rotary linear potentiometer reel with wire down to the brake bracket.
@@vinceseyb2640very cool. Do you mean KTM uses a rotary encoder with a string? Creative, though I suspect the LVDT will give better data.
@@8180634 hopefully this link works www.vitalmx.com/features/vital-mx-pit-bits-2024-denver-supercross
Where were the patents filed? I can’t find either of them.
I've written down in my notebook showa patent 2017 10203013 and 2010 for the road bike number 8857582. Just Patents is the website.
Simple, yet informative. Thank you for taking the time to make this video. I need to make a similar video with my bike and riding style. I don't hit jumps, but I assume I'm using the top 10% of my shock on the flats just as you are. I might want to adjust the sag in my front shock a bit more for my riding style (skill level) to get more performance.
Cheers for the feedback.
you can go lighter, anyway nice idea ! still havnt seen them on MX bikes
I think we are finally getting to the heart of the matter here. Nice one.
kzread.info/dash/bejne/amuHs6pqoqqvd5s.htmlsi=O78InrxgQBDND_BQ
that is a vey informative vid Vincent…..I have been developing what I call a dual suspension system which is two working suspensions in series….exactly like shown in this vid….of coarse in my case it is damped forced vibration input which makes all the difference. keep going with your work mate…dont let the nay sayers win and keep at it…..it def seems to be a thing. :-)
Can you share how the closed chamber fork valves effect the system? I’m grasping these concepts but am curious how to apply. Does a stiff base valve help build pressure with the mid v? What would the common tech be surprised to hear?
Hey Kyle. I appreciate the support. The base valve certainly sets the tone of the pressure. If you want to get a good feel for how the relationship works start with your own bike, build a what you would normally call a "stiff" OEM base valve setting with a very light mid and 0.20 float. 300ml of oil your normal springs etc. Test then modify the mid only to no float. Let me know what bike and I'll give you some direction. To the last bit, that theres a phenomenon called dynamic stiffness, that is that a damper that produces a modest force on the dyno can become stiff on track due the way it handles high frequency inputs. Where as something "stiff" can ride plusher because it is impacted less.
Idk how people can be upset over damper hysteresis, it makes perfect sense, especially if you have any mechanical engineering knowledge.
This is the sort of stuff I spend hours trying to find, this is awesome.
Thank you!!
Vince very interesting series on pressure balancing. Why did you leave the 30x. 30 shim out of the rebound stack?
Hey Thanks. Good spotting it's just a "typo" I scribbled it down in a hurry before making the video. The 30 was there and everything else is as I have it next video is on peak velocity and acceleration.
Does the CRF shock have stock valves?
Hi Erik. Stock pistons in the shock with a metal "low friction" piston band and the racetech rebound separator valve. The boys on TT love to give me a hard time. Hysteresis and pressure balancing isn't my concept, and a lot of the work I've presented throughout the videos is done by guys far smarter than myself. I simply want to share my thoughts on the subject and how I feel it relates to our industry.
That was excellent Vince cheers. Honestly you look at all these Sim tools and you got to wonder. F1 teams always have problems with correlation despite billions of dollars investment in their tools. The Adrian Newy (Red Bull) rocks up with his drawing board and helps design the quickest car on the grid. Not to mention climate models - complete and utter wank.
I should have said mills of oil not mm and when i talk about keeping it simple, just add and subtract shims (not stacks 🤦♂️) Utilize the shim factor to count the shims above the clamp shim. Start with a 0.10 = 1 then it goes as follows .15 = 3.38 (0.10s) .20 = 8 (0.10s) .25 = 15.8 (0.10s) .30 = 27 (0.10s) If you want to soften a stack to increase flow relative to pressure drop, reduce the overall shim count. Conversely to decrease flow relative to pressure add shims. The clamp OD can be useful too. Larger OD equals stiffer. A "stiff" adjuster stack or base valve relative to the main will delay the force build up, and make shock operate at higher internal pressures to net the same force as a well balanced damper. It will also produce significant hysteresis. Utilize the main piston/ mid valve to produce the bulk of the force via a decent pressure drop as it sees the largest portion of oil flow. Small consecutive bumps AREN'T low speed events but are actually high frequency. This requires a fast response damper which is best achieved minimizing the dampers internal pressure in particular the rebound chamber. Happy riding
www.valvinglogic.com/index.php
www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2009-01-0223/
arxiv.org/abs/2208.06343
when next video coming
Hi Vince.. keep these vids coming. English is not my native tounge so 50 of your views is probably from me :) Greetings from Sweden.
Do you know the port entry area for the kyb sss midvalve (24mm) if the basevalve has 66mm2 the difference between the could be calculated...
I can't thank you enough for your videos!
What is the port area in the kyb sss midvalve (24mm piston)?
112mm2. On the midvalve you can limit the maximum flow area by utilizing a backer shim to limit shim edge lift.
@@vinceseyb2640 Thanks for the info. It is cool to calculate some hydraulic stuff and to see why they have chose certain dimensions in kyb sss.
Nice - You need you label and define the points on your chart, e.g. S = shim starting to open, O = fully open, S= Full Stroke or something.
Yeah after making it I wished I had the axis the other way around. I'm not very computer savvy so it's a painful experience.
Nice
❤
Great vid. We've been having this conversation as of late. Appreciate your insight.
penskeshocks.com www.penskeshocks.com › ...PDF Pressure Balancing of Shock Absorbers
Nice one Vince. Subscribed