My name is Dave Stagl, and I'm an audio engineer. This channel is an offshoot of my website, Going to 11, and features videos related to audio production, mixing, and Dolby Atmos along with anything else audio related I feel like making a video about.
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Great video....Thanks you.....where can we hear the final produced song?
Hey Dave is it possible to “master” a binaural file? Like in sending to a client a binaural file from the DAR but the guy told me it sounds really low in volume to him and asked if I could raise the volume…. If I apply a limiter to it will the binauralization get destroyed?
I wouldn't do it. Using a limiter for loudness will potentially create harmonics which could affect the binauralization/imaging. If the Atmos mix is to spec, I would recommend he just turn his volume up. When the mix is distributed, it will be in the ballpark of everything out there, plus streaming services will loudness normalize anyway.
Ah! I see, its within the ProTools folder structure. Wasn't paying attention to this new feature.
So, principally all won't have 2:15 your template. It would be awesomely (in Aussie language) enlightening to do this without the template,,,, from scratch. The AVID presets is something new to me 3:07. Where does one find these? This is very informative, thanks. I'd have loved to see the massinations of you setting up all the edited out stuff. To track the flow of setting up the session. Really positive in the demo.
Hi Dave and thanks for sharing! Like you I've had Bob as my mixing hero since the early/mid 80's when I first found out about him and his work. I got to meet him in Paris for a workshop last spring, and after that I also wanted to find a way to mix both in Atmos and stereo at the same time as it makes all the sense in the world to me. I'm on Nuendo rather than PT, but actually ended up with the exact same solution as you presented here. Works fine, although I tend tweak the stereo sends a little for a dedicated stereo mix, rather than relying on a fold down. At least on my system the fold down from the (internal) renderer seems to alter the balance of the mix. I've also experimented with incorporating my SSL AWS desk in the process, but of course I can't do it the way Bob does as the AWS doesn't have enough busses. Instead I've been using the 24 channels of the AWS as inserted external analog channel strips for groups (BD-mix, SD-mix, OH-mix etc), and that way I can also insert any other outboard (mainly compressors) on the AWS channels before it returns to Nuendo. Makes recalls much more complex of course, but is more fun and subjectively sounds better than just using plug-ins. I'm back and forth between loving it and thinking it's too complicated and time consuming. Do you use any outboards in your Atmos/stereo mixes? If yes, how, where and what? All the best, Andreas Bauman
When it comes to the standard 2.0 re-render, I am not usually a fan because it turns down the surrounds 3 dB before it folds them into the front L/R. The 2.0 Direct or Stereo Direct that Dolby started incorporating in the renderer usually works pretty good for me. I am not currently using any outboard gear. I sold my last compressor a few months ago because I just wasn't using it.
I LOVE that you are selling this kind of template!
is this atmos music template available anywhere? do you sell it?
I'm working on one that I will have available soon.
Here's the template: staglsound.com/shop/p/dolbyatmostemplate
ill be trying this for sure!!!! thank you so much David!!! this has became into my favorite youtube channel jejejeje
Nice video thanks! Curious what youre process for mastering an album is in atmos. Seems having the assembler is a good option for this but im curious how you would go about it in pro tools. Seems like you would need alot of tracks (depending on how many songs there are and how many objects were used for each song). Also how would you handle binaural settings between all the songs? Anyway maybe a possible future video idea. Thanks!
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed the video. Album mastering is a really good question. All the stuff I've done thus far has been singles, but I'm in the middle of a project right now that will probably require some creativity. The album assembler would be a great tool. Aside from that, I know some mixers maintain object binaural settings across songs so they can master in something like Pro Tools. For example, if Object 25 is "near" in song 1, it would be "near" in every song.
Mixing in a daw with an enormous analog desk as thumbnail 😂
Dolby Atmos is a dead 🦜.
Thanks for doing this. Appreciate the info but would love a longer version. Basically what you already did but uncut and with some commentary on your thoughts/why you are doing things, changing settings etc. Walk us through the thought process.
Are you looking for more of a full mixing walkthrough?
@@goingto11 Not a mixing walkthrough. More information on setting up the template/routing for surround and signal flow. Some practical examples using the key input.
I wonder if this video might help answer some questions for you: kzread.info/dash/bejne/l3h7pcyoldebe84.html
Yea, this is my thought. An excellent presentation but without the cuts.
Hopefully these can be considered for the future as there is a very experienced peep that has an internal reality that I am not close to replicating presently. So unedited is a very very big PLEASE!
Great for those of us who mix a lot in stereo and sometimes one to try atmos mix without all the stem bouncing!
This setup is almost like how my template is.
Can you tell me a little more about Soundflow? What do you use it for and where can I find some more info about it?
Great question. SoundFlow is an automation platform that lets you program macros and scripts to handle tedious tasks in DAWs as well as things a DAW can't do. There are also a lot of things already available as well, for example, in this video I'm using scripts someone else put up in the SoundFlow store for free to copy the Sends from one track and paste them to another. Here are a couple of videos I've done specifically on SoundFlow that get into some of the things I use it for: kzread.info/dash/bejne/o2aN29GTnZCcZ8Y.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/e4lqktqkft3IhLA.html If you want to try out SoundFlow, here's a link to do that: soundflow.org/invite?fpr=293i6 Please let me know if you have more SoundFlow questions.
@@goingto11 Thanks for all the info! Sounds like an awesome time saver!
It definitely is. It's not always apparent, though, since it's lots of little tasks.
Way outside what I normally do but loved how the Binaural Atmos sounded on my headphones.
Hi Dave, Question: instead of using a master fader to control de input of the compressors why don´t you link the inserts to get the threshold linked? Thanks, great video!!! My workflow is very different, I use OBEDS and zones to panning using sends, in that way I can make automation to send the audio to different positions during the song. I also use a lot of movements with the Dolby Atmos music panner and make a template with the writing of those movements to use with the internal renderer.
I don't link the inserts because the last time I tried it, Pro Tools wouldn't let you link inserts when tracks have different track widths. It is quite annoying.
@@goingto11 👍
The Lauten tom mics sound super also and let minimal cymbal bleed in YOU NEED TO TRY THEM!
I would love to try them out.
@@goingto11 I just ordered a full set from sweetwater and they sound AMAZING I have an 8 piece it of DW Collectors Series Mahogany and Maple and those mics just make them boom! I mic on both the top & bottom and it just brings a depth that gets the full resonance of the drum! I have DPA 2015s for overhead (4 corners XY) A Shure boundary inside on a Shu mount, a Telefunken M82 @ the sound hole and a WA47 or Telefunken Copperheads on the outside of the kick and I am using a Neve preamp to run the kit through plus I have a Roland Octapad and a TD 50 because all drums are triggered! I added Evans Hydraulic heads on all the toms because they really give a nice stick attack. I kept the snare heads that came with kit they are Evans batter coated so if it's not broke don't fix it! 😉 The Lauten Clarion (it's almost eight feet in the air) is what I use for a center overhead and an LS320 for a room mic on a short stand! Those drum shields really cut down on kit bleed into vocalists mics! Our band is an eight piece Traditional Country and western swing band but we haven't forgotten our roots we also perform a few southern gospel tunes every show and it seems to go over well. Are you still the FOH Engineer at your church? Perhaps we'll have to stop there and join your praise group for a service or two when we roll through your town, I thought I heard you say you were in Detroit?
So there is only right-left top speaker panning in commercial theatres, if sound is mixed as arrays?
If you send to the height channels in the bed, you only have left and right in the array. If you use an object, you can pan through the entire array.
@@goingto11 Got it. Thanks 😊
As a consumer, I'm on a 7.1.6. I very much appreciate mixers who use 9.1.6 monitoring in their mixes.
great video! keep it up!
Thanks!
it isn't one or the other, just use both
One workaround to hearing the spatial coding in an Atmos studio setting is export your .mp4 dd+joc, convert it to an Atmos ADM + metadata with an application called Cavernize and then play that ADM in the Renderer again. This will essentially be a spatially encoded ADM you will be able to monitor and see how it will decode in terms of the objects and any that got grouped together spatially.
Very cool Sam!!
Thanks a lot for all the information really help just a question do you know proteus can be useful?
I liked what the 1176 was doing. Vocal rider seemed to put some volume sway back in to me. Thanks for the video!
David is there a guide somewhere to rerouting 7.1.4 from the renderer via Dante back into PT which I can then for monitoring via audiomovers. Struggling with this part of the puzzle.
I don't think so. Are you using a MTRX?
@@goingto11 grace m908 but I figured it out now! 🤦♂
Anyone else think that Atmos binaural -> all settings off -> played through stereo speakers -> sounds better than the 2.0 re-render?
So question, in a situation where you’re using your Sub as both Bass management (via interface crossover) and as LFE, does that have a chance to double the bass??
Good question. If bass management is properly setup, it should not double your bass. You could, however, intentionally double the bass if you send it to the LFE in addition to the bed or an object.
@@goingto11 I seeee so we should really mainly treat the LFE as like the little extra umph, but not the only destination of Bass frequencies! Does it make sense to have a separate sub dedicated for LFE then? Thanks for the answer! Subscribed!
I would not use LFE as the exclusive deliverer of low frequency content. I use it to augment a little here and there. I use a separate send for it.
Thankyou Sir... 🙏🙏🙏 Excellent Video... 👌👌👌❤❤❤
Thanks David, you are good at… “ givin good guidance “.. thanks Bro
Super great video Dave. I was really adamant about using object beds for discrete locations, and I see that isn't as important. I still hope to see more listening parties being held in movie theaters. Maybe even Get some live performance theaters with the potential for immersive sound, kind of like the sphere in Las Vegas and other venues that support immersive live performances. I wonder how this kind of thing will translate in the future as well with apple Vision Pro, and future augmented reality headsets. Super neat to see how technology has evolved Within the past five years. Glad to be here to witness it🙂
Thanks, Alex. I'm also curious about live performance since I've worked with other immersive systems for live sound. Right now the biggest issue I'd see with Atmos as I know it is the latency. I'm really curious what they're doing with the venue out in Vegas.
@@goingto11 I feel like there should be a relatively easy way you route audio to even a separate processor that accounts for the latency, but that's only one factor of the. I was thinking a Stereo PA for the band, and something like 7.1.4 playback tracks running in another DAW? Something I plan on looking into in the next few years. Also forgot to ask the question about object sizes compared to an array, and maybe some compromise between binaural and speaker playback using the size parameter to spread into more speakers. Probably is kind of messy with binaural, but something worth checking out!!
@@goingto11 Las Vegas uses a Holoplot X1 system which employs 3D Audio-Beamforming and Wave Field Synthesis. Quite bit more advanced than Dolby Atmos.
In the renderer you're showing, it looks as if individual speakers that are part of an array can play individually. My understanding is that that's not how an array works. From the Trinnov Altitude 32 processor manual (p. 80): "...it becomes essential to be able to create an array of speakers: use several speakers to play the same channel. ... Similar configurations have been used in commercial cinemas for years." In other words, when a group of speakers are setup as an array, they will play the same signal. They will never be able to play individually. So that renderer is very confusing.
One of the early selling points for Atmos was it allowed mixers to "pan through arrays". If we are working with an object, we can pan to any location in the environment and the Dolby Atmos renderer will place it in the best speaker(s) to recreate that position based on the current speaker configuration. If we work within the bed in Atmos, it will utilize the arrays.
@@goingto11 interesting. That would require a processor that knows how to differentiate between the two. But perhaps that is how Atmos enabled processors work with arrays, compared to how arrays would be setup and work in the past prior to Atmos?
In any Dolby format there is metadata, and that metadata should tell the device where to put things. I'm not exactly sure how that works in consumer devices, though, partially because I'm not sure exactly what is happening with the encoding for consumer formats(ex. DD+, TrueHD, etc.).
@@goingto11 yeah. That's constantly being tested by the home theater community. Especially since the launch of the spatial audio calibration toolkit. That's how we've found out that some mixes don't render as we would want them to (e.g. 7.1.2 mixes with 7.1.6 setups) and that different devices actually do things a bit different, and that the user's settings can mess things up without them knowing (e.g. assigning speakers that are located as surround heights as "surround heights" in Denon/Marantz, which will make them completely silent with Atmos content).
@@isak6626So you say, if someone has height speakers, they should be assigned as top speakers not height? Did you test it? Because as I know Dolby Atmos supports height configuration and many people are happy with that.
This is great David!!! Answers all the questions I had from the previous video. So the big problem is that this IS not how it works in any home system, even on a Trinnov. It SHOULD be the standard going forward. If the processors for home theater could do what the renderer could with arrays would solve SO MANY people’s problems that use higher speaker count systems.
I think it's important to also understand that consumer delivery is never the FULL Atmos. There is always spatial coding happening that clusters audio into either 12, 14, or 16 objects/channels depending on how the bit budgeting is done--and LFE is one of those so it's really more like 11, 13, or 15. That's why some of those "object viewers" people use for home theaters to see how "active" a soundtrack is aren't very accurate as to what is really happening in the mix.
@@goingto11 Yes, for sure, but you can still see the things that are encoded as objects in the Trinnov viewer, even if they are in clusters you still see them represented and it gives you a little number counter too of how many objects or I should say object clusters are active at that moment. The fact remains that on a 7.1.4 home system an object or bed mix will sound basically identical minus the extra 2 heights, but on a 9.1.6 home system the bed layer will not engage the front and rear heights or the wides. Same goes if you added more side surrounds for multiple rows. I know the theatrical won’t engage the wides on bed only, but for home theater the 6 height setup only engaging the middle 2 heights is a big problem for many, so much so that many discourage going to 6 heights for that reason. It’s weird in that it’s a problem that will only affect the bigger budget systems and not the people that stick to 7.1.4. Usually stuff like that is the other way around where you get the short end of the stick if you don’t spend the extra money.
great. well explained
Awesome!
How do you reference other mixes? Are you getting their masters to put in your renderer or is there a website or from apple music? If so are you using a separate receiver ? Or is it binaural and just your setup plays back just fine?
For Atmos, I use Apple Music. I don't use a separate receiver. I wrote an article for Production Expert a couple years ago on how to set it up, but there's also a video on my channel here: kzread.info/dash/bejne/fZmj1ax6h7mcXdI.html
Thanks David….. I can some really cooool controls for Atmos…..it’s really does a nice job …. Gosh, they should give ya kudos for sharing. Yer the Man! Thanks.
Thanks for the video. I think the GUI is a bit confusing at first sight. It looks more like a step sequencer panner than a delay. 😀Having to manually apply volume variation for emulating a normal delay is time consuming, although you can do stuff that a normal delay won´t do easily, like bounce back at increasing volume after having faded. It can be great creative tool, but with limited scope for the moment I guess. I usually like to feed the output of a normal delay through an aux and use the Dolby panner and draw the trajectory and tempo with the inbuilt sequencer.
Thanks for this! Could you please do a video on how the different track widths are compatible with each other? How do I make my Atmos mix (done in my 7.1.4 environment) utilize all the speakers in a larger, e.g. 9.1.6 environment? Cheers! 👍
I'm not quite sure what you're asking about track widths and compatibility, but this video might explain a bit about utilizing speakers in a larger environment than the one you are mixing in: kzread.info/dash/bejne/l3h7pcyoldebe84.html
@@goingto11 Thanks! Sorry for being unclear, I've watched the linked video earlier and if I understand you correctly, you set up a 9.1.6 track width bus which is then routed to your 7.1.4 Atmos outputs? And the Wide speakers are panned exactly 68 % in the F/R relationship? What makes this a bit confusing is two-fold. 1) I don't use Pro Tools so names of things in the DAW don't always match up and 2) I don't have access to a 9.1.6 room to verify that it actually works. :) But cool, I'll implement it accordingly in Cubase. Cheers!
Well, maybe one thing I should clear up is I'm not feeding an Atmos output--in some ways that doesn't exist. What I'm doing is feeding into the Atmos renderer which then feeds my monitors based on the configuration of the monitors which, in my case, is currently 7.1.4. That aside, I'm not familiar with Cubase, but there are probably a couple of approaches you could use to hit the wides. The first would be to use a 9.x.x bus, and then figure out the panning to hit those specific channels. If there's a meter for that bus, that should help you figure out the values. Another way some of us have done it in the past is to just use a stereo bus that is assigned to a pair of objects that are panned to the wide positions. Then when you want to hit the wides you just send to that bus. You'd still have to figure out the panning value for Cubase, though.
Pretty cool!
Excellent video! When mixing music I use the 7.1.2 bed with a few objects as well. Sometimes I do find in Apple playback panning objects the relationship between the bed and the objects shifts depending on panning, which can be annoying.
Hey great video and straight to the point! Any chance you have any downloadable Atmos Master Files from previous work you can share? Maybe we can study the mix in the renderer or just get an idea what music should sound like in your perspective via Atmos? Hope to hear from you, love the channel!
Unfortunately I don't have any ADM files I can distribute. I am exploring some options to look at some Atmos mixes, though.
The communication delivery of this video was so “chewy” i hated listening. I was nervous listening to it. Could not focus!
Thanks so much for another outstanding video, Dave! One thing I'm not clear about: in the context of arrays and "coverage," how/why does the Bed interpret fixed pan positions differently than the same fixed pan positions in an OBED? This would seem to be at odds with the accepted language about the Bed, which is that its LCR, etc. channels are really just like objects that have fixed, unalterable panning data. I hope this makes sense, and sorry if I missed something. Thanks again for sharing your experience!
Well, the bed channels are like objects in one sense, but the bed is also more like a traditional multi-channel format like 5.1 and 7.1. I think this doesn't get talked about much when it comes to music production because it's generally not as applicable as it is in the audio post world. I'm actually working on a follow-up video that will hopefully demonstrate all of this a little clearer.
Excellent - thanks, Dave! Appreciate the reply
I also don't use, it's basically making an object based technology speaker agnostic. It's for people that don't understand the bed, or how to use it.
INTERESTING! So there must be some voodoo going on in that cinema or other commercial Atmos cinemas because that is NOT the way things mixed in the BED are reproduced in any home cinema, even the largest and most insane ones that use a Trinnov or Storm. It seems weird that the renderer is showing the balls with halo around them as if the “size” parameter has been engaged on everything. I’m gonna get a discussion going in our Atmos mixing group about this because this is a very interesting topic. Some things to discuss here: A) The Trinnov placement guide seems a bit misleading because they list the multiple side surrounds (LS, LS1, LS2) as an array. As you know an array is the same information duplicated through multiple speakers. In the Trinnov you can set up of those 3 left surround speakers as EITHER an array or discrete speakers which can then only be used if an object pans through. Something panned to Left Surround in the Bed will only come out of LS. If you want something panned to LS in the Bed to come out of LS, LS1, LS2, you’d need to switch to a different speaker preset in the Trinnov that has them set as an array. It will attenuate each speaker 3db and play that same sound out of all 3 speakers but then you lose the ability of an object panning along the wall to transition smoothly from speaker to speaker like it would in the regular preset where they are discrete speakers. Something very weird is going on in that theater you went to (side note, that’s amazing you got to play back some of your mixes in that type of space!) but from your pictures it looks like it can instantaneously decide when something is a bed and duplicate that sound in an array fashion or if it see’s it’s an object it places it discreetly to the one speaker. Also weird that in your pic when LS, LS1, LS2 are all showing on the meter, they are different level. You would think if it was array they would all be getting equal volume. When I was visiting LA last month, I was lucky enough to get to tour the Sony lot with Marc Fishman, and they showed us their Atmos mixing stages there which are basically small to medium size commercial cinemas. They have so many speakers, I counted 14 height speakers in one of the rooms! I asked if they are using any arrays and he said no, they are all set as discrete speakers. So they are not mixing with arrays. So again I’m wondering what the hell is happening in that theater!!! In any case it shows that it’s very limited to that theater or other commercial theaters but no device that would be used to process the home theater mix will behave that way so it’s a very limited thing for people to get music mixes played in a theater. Bigger point is it has me wondering what’s going on with decoding in theatrical? Even though the mixing stages have discrete speakers, is it doing the same thing when they’re mixing where it has some sort of ability to “on the fly” place a bed sound in the entire array and keep an object locked to discrete speakers? I’m definitely gonna follow up with Marc about that! B) Object Beds that you mention in this video seems like there is no winner other than for workflow but let’s talk about mixing in the Bed vs Object specifically for home theaters. Movie mixes like Ready Player One which are mixed as Bed only are stuck in 7.1.2. In every AVR or processor if you have 4 overhead or heights speakers, it takes the left top and duplicates that sound to Left Top Front and Left Top Rear. Same for Top right. So that way Bed height information will come out of all 4 of your top speakers but you still have discrete movement or placement for objects. If you have 6 overhead speakers though, Bed only height info will only come out of top middle. Most people find this frustrating and make a separate preset for movies like this that removes their top middles and uses only 4 height speakers so it makes that bed info cover a larger area. Also, anything mixed in Bed only will NOT use anything beyond the 7 ear layer speakers. So if you have front wides, extra surrounds, etc, BED information will NOT play out of those speakers. You would need to do something similar like with the heights where you make a separate preset where those extra speakers are setup as an array. Only the Trinnov and Storm can do that since in most AVR’s and processors arrays have to be setup manually and by sending that channel to an external device to duplicate it and time align and set the volume. So for home theaters that have let’s say an 11.1.6 setup with extra side surrounds and front wides, they really miss out on using all their speakers on mixes that are bed only. Thankfully, most mixes mixes use a combination of both where things that aren’t moving will be Bed but anything that has to move around in any way should be encoded as an object so all those speakers will get used. So to bring it back to your video, on an 11.1.6 home setup, something mixed in bed only or using object bed will sound identical. In fact the object bed will probably work better for the heights since that will have 4 discrete height locations rather than 2. Also, as I proof read this whole thing, it made realize that if every AVR can recognize BED height info and duplicate it on the fly, which couldn’t that be done with the surrounds or wides? That fact that even the Trinnov or Storm can’t do it on the fly tells you it must take some serious processing power. So maybe only in theatrical Atmos and mixing stages do they have processors that have the ability to see if something is bed or object and send it to the speakers as an “array” or discrete object.
Using proq3 in Linear Phase mode will solve this issue instantly.
Yup
I’m not a mixer but I’m a home theater enthusiast. Objects are very useful when listening in a home theater. It makes use of all speakers in that plane no matter if you have a 5,7, or 9 speaker base/bed layer. Same of height speakers. Objects allow the decoder to pan to all speakers in the object path. So objects for sounds that actually move is really important imo.
Thanks Dave for sharing !!! So valuable!! Have a good weekend !
I really love your vids David thank so much for taking the time to share your knowledge. I’m from Costa Rica and highly appreciate all the info you bring to the table jejeje In regarding the usage of OBEDS I would like to say that I started to use them about 2 months from now and I quit to them because I was having the problem that ok I mix using the obeds but later I won’t have option to manage the binaural settings of those instrument but just for the bed which IMO limits a lot of the creative stuff you can get in binaural using different distances…. Is funny what you mentioned about the adm Size cause indeed that was one of the first things that came up to visibility all of the sudden my files increased the size and sometimes I created 2 obeds but for some reason actually used 1 obedient for the whole mix so I was creating adm with a phantom OBED doing NOTHING jajajaja so yeah I agree that the upload of those files should be charged based on the size otherwise people won’t care and like I my case I sent 1 or 2 files like that I then realized it was a waste of space so fixed it for the rest of files I created ever since….