Two friends obsessed with books and writing, we're Shannen and Gareth, and welcome to The Pleasure of the Text. Reading and writing aren't lonely pursuits, and The Pleasure of the Text lies in the shared imaginative space where readers and writers make meaning together. So tune in and join us as we talk about the books we love, interview remarkable authors, and discuss the writer’s craft.
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I read the book on kindle so the separation you talked about on chapter 10 was surprising and makes me wish I picked up the physical copy
You still can, Gisselle! Rereading has the potential to be a real pleasure (especially if you enjoyed the first read); it's amazing how parts of a text will strike you quite differently the second time around. Thanks for taking the time to leave a comment for us; it's much appreciated! :)
I found this episode looking for information on self publishing vs trad but enjoyed it so much that I will listen to more eps. Really loved the vibe of the podcast, you both brought a lot of interesting well researched topics to the episode. Keep up the great work!
Thanks Dean! We both really enjoy our chats on this and that, but comments like yours are extra encouraging :)
Really enjoyed this one, folks. Another great podcast ! I have a copy of Solaris that a couple of forward thinking Literos sent me - so I will be tucking into that, soon. But If I may make my own book recommendations I would offer this: Lucy Ellmann's Ducks Newberry Port - which I still get into from time to time. The Kiss of the Fur Queen, by Thomson Highway (a Cree writer, here in Canada). Lynda Barry's book Cruddy (its a novel told by a 14 year old girl), and anything - and I mean anything by a cartoonist named Ben Katchor. I recommend his early books, or 'the Jew of New York' - they're a dreamlike world of the working class urban experience. Thanks again, I'll look up the dictionary of Literary Influences - as I've been trying to draw a line from Aeschylus to Vonnegut in my reading and literary studies. All the best.
Thanks Jay! I'll check out those book suggestions (I guess I've now officially had more than 2, lol) with my next review choice in mind. I remember you mentioning Cruddy once before, so that's currently at the top of the list :)
Nice episode & discussion. Can't wait for the DFW/IJ deep dive haha
Thanks Rino! I have to say: an Infinite Jest deep dive sounds terrifying, lol :D
@@thepleasureofthetext oh man there's so much to say about IJ. Like: the greatest novel of our generation.
I was disappointed with the book. Once I understood the situation and the aliens' motives, the entire premise left me feeling let down. The behavior of the aliens made no sense to me. They gathered meat at the slowest possible rate, with the highest risk involved. Their agent for gathering meat was prone to psychological trauma and could make foolish mistakes. I tried to envision the aliens as a primitive race that came to Earth and saw humans as meat because they looked nothing like them, which led to the harvesting. But why all the subterfuge? The meat they gather is dangerous and can't be picked up carelessly. Why wasn't any means of communication ever used? The main character doesn't seem to ponder this, even though it becomes clear she's somewhat insane by the end. Maybe it's just extreme brainwashing from their superiors, but even that seems questionable and she hates her superiors (Or what they did to her). The way they operate their secret meat factory is bound to fail. The main character lies about the state of humans to the "spoiled" son of the rich alien. The story had no ups and downs and didn't seem to have a proper ending. I felt nothing for the main character. Her actions seemed foolish, and she came across as a brainwashed person who, despite hating the system she was part of, made no attempt or had no thoughts of "spoiling" the operation. Even at the end she rather blow up than to be...........what? She even hastily puts on her glasses to fool the last vodsel she ever sees. The story of the book is just a thing that happened. Apparently I missed the point and the book was a commentary about something? Race? Meat production? Even if was a superb commentary tackling all the issues like a pro I was still let down by the dumb lackluster story. EDIT. As I was reading someone's review on this they too had the same conclusion as I did. If the aliens are super advanced and can travel between the starts, why then secrecy and subterfuge?
Thanks for the comment, Kissa! A very thoughtful take on the book. Sometime in the near future we're going to discuss Stanislaw Lem's Solaris, which offers a fascinating perspective on alien lifeforms (specifically: that if we ever encountered one, it would be unrecognisable to us). Lem is a writer you might like; he had a taste for the absurd, but in many ways he was a scrupulously logical thinker. Return From the Stars is another good novel from him IMO :)
I just finished reading this, it was quite effective in in bringing out the feelings it was trying to elicit I think, particularly with the use of the perspective switching between Isserley and the hitchers she would pick up. The ending was a bit sudden, but then that can happen, can't it? It's not as if the point of the narrative were to explain the "humans" or their origins, but to tell Isserley's small story, so it felt appropriate. I enjoyed the discussion you had on the book here, cheers!
Thanks RMB! It's quite a fascinating book, isn't it? The Crimson Petal and the White is a real door-stopper to be sure, but definitely worth a look as well if you enjoy Faber's writing :)
I have been suffering some insomnia the last six months, which has been leaving me unable to keep to my usual 8am - lunch writing schedule. What I have recently been discovering is that I am becoming better at writing whenever, during the day, when my brain is not asleep. The aspergers writer in me, hates this, but I am also finding that I am lingering on the questions I have with what's coming up for the next day and letting go of the outline I've been using, with interesting solutions. I'm now wondering if I shouldn't write something short or some poetry when I'm really insomnia-drunk.
It's a fascinating and - I'm sure - deeply frustrating problem, when you're suffering from some neurological issue. I have several friends who are genius writers, but also are ADHD, or have bipolar disorder and they struggle to write anything, or anything ongoing. I always try to direct them to Virginia Wolf, who was - I believe - bipolar and found, when it got worse that she couldn't write, until she fractured the structure and didn't worry too much if it was a flowing unbroken piece of prose. Now we look back on what she did, as revolutionary. Which doesn't mean to say it's not frustrating. It is. But there is this idea that its not just the best of us that makes great art, but also those pieces of us that aren't "right". Best of luck to you Gareth, on sorting this difficult problem. But if anyone can, I'm sure its you.
Thanks Jay, I really appreciate the support :) I think you're right too that Woolf is a potentially excellent role model for fogged-up writers! I'll keep my fingers crossed that your insomnia passes soon; I know how much of a grind it can be. Incidentally, I completed a sleep study myself just last night and I'm pretty sure I failed it miserably, lol...
I have one solution to having trouble with writing - read a book, usually of the kind I wouldn't normally read. Something will saunter in the back of the mind and pop up later out of nowhere, hopefully to be put down on the page!
That's a great strategy! Our regular imaginative spaces can get a bit stale, and defamiliarising these can work wonders.
I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed this review of my favorite novel. I've read 'Under the Skin' over and over. You both did an amazing job discussing the book and giving your takes on certain scenes. We stayed at Tarrel Farm (the inspiration for Ablach Farm) a few years ago and visited so many places that are featured in the novel, including the jetty where Isserley goes after the assault (Wilkhaven Pier) and walking her path down to the Moray Firth on Tarrel Farm. Faber lived at Tarrel Farm when he wrote the novel, and being there felt like I was right inside of the story. It was surreal for us to drive on the A9 and pass the different locations where she picked up the hitchers. We're going back in a few months and I can't wait to visit even more of the locations we missed last time. Thank you again for such a thoughtful review of this wonderful novel!
Thanks Brad and Amy! I've never visited the location/s of any of my favourite novels, but I can imagine it would add a whole other level to the experience of reading them. Shannen and I will soon be reviewing Our Share of Night by Mariana Enriquez, and certainly I'd love to step into the dark, haunted jungle that book describes (or maybe I wouldn't, lol). Like Faber, she's an incredible writer, well worth checking out :)
@@thepleasureofthetext Thank you for the recommendation! I will add that one to my reading list and look forward to your review📚
How 'bout this for a tag line, "....Wherever you are in the world, keep the Pleasure of the Text with you..."
That would make a great T-shirt, Jay! :D
bless you for taking the time to discuss this amazing book
Thanks Shannen, thanks Gareth - really enjoyed this one. I'm a fiend for Kobo Abe, so I will check this one out. It sounds great. So much to read, so much to consider. Really appreciate you taking the time to parse it all out for those of us watching. Loads of fun. All the best
Thanks Jay! My pile of books to read has grown considerably since the holiday season... so much to read!
Well imagine my surprise when, after finishing the ending to my latest book - (the first rough draft of my 'Inspired Edit', there, Gareth), I turn on my lap top, and find you two, at it again, with another great episode, about writing, AI and why and all that. As always you have provided yet another compelling and fun discussion. I must say this, though, about AI: I hate it. I hate it at the Walmart, cause it makes me scan my own purchases - when I was already having to bag them and it also puts tellers out of work. I hate it on the phone, when I call to get the show times for a play I want to see, when on the other end I am met with that robot voice that forces me, rudely, to search through the prompts to maybe find the information I need. And I hate that if AI is successful, it will only do more of this for writers, which is put people out'f work, put writers out of work. Even if we are free to write, which we forever will be, it will bury us in an even greater sea of crap, making it - for those who wish to make a living - even harder to get attention. But that's on the product end. And I must say, I didn't just write the unread book I've just finished, so you guys can read it and help me improve it for sale. I have my doubts it will sell, anywhere. But I've finished it today, with glee so - at the very least - I could come to understand what it is that is gnawing at me, and to try and share that with anyone who will listen, hoping it resonates - hoping I'm not crazy. I wrote this book to see where the story would go, then to find out what it was about, and if it can be re-shaped to make it say what I think I am intending - or, more likely, to figure out what it is I am trying to tell myself. Selling it, well - that's a whole other thing. Much of what we do in life, is like that - possibly pointless, because when the sun finally does swell up and engulf this chaotic planet what will we have and who will remember any'f it. So in that light, for me, right now, life is more about the doing than the product - at least for me, as a writer. I think there is much to gain in the writing of a story, and selling it does mean its reaching people, but at the start anyway, I think it is the act of searching and the act of learning that is the most poignant. And the wonderful interchange between people that comes from trying to make the edits and do the thing, that matters most to me, right now....because, in the trying and the sharing of that effort, I feel like I am, maybe, connecting with the world beyond my study. And - I mean - why else be here, but to connect with others. Connected-ness I think is the more important reason behind why we write and share our writing. I think, in all these actions, we find our own individual answers and our own collective answers, or at least questions. I think writing helps make being alive in the world more meaningful. And a 'life' spent living on Mars isn't going to provide any answer for us, that couldn't already be found here, on earth, anyway. And building robot-versions'f ourselves, to do the living for us, definitely won't help answer anything in that regard, either. In fact, I believe it will take away a lot'f the living we do in life, as it takes away all the annoying painful inconvenient struggles we currently endure, everyday, as we're bothering with the tasks of living in the world, as we're trying to figure it out why the frig' we're here. So, nothing makes me sadder than the idea of robots caring for us, or doing all the supposedly 'pointless' things we do, because its in the effort to do these pointless things, in the caring and supporting of each other that we grow stronger and grow our tiny souls. Kurt Vonnegut always chided us to grow our souls, and this is how we will do it, by doing all the dumb things we have to do, ourselves; like changing someone's diapers, and wiping our kids snotty noses, and turning our aging parents in bed. We do these things not just to avoid the bed sores and diaper rash, we do it so we know how to care for each other and to build a world in which people care for each other, so when we need care, its that kind'f world. A world were we grow our souls. Its smelly yucky work, but every parent, every teacher, ever social worker, every nurse, every PSW knows this. It helps us strengthen our soul muscle. I get that kind'f thing from writing too, and also from listening to the two of you. The reading you've done, the thinking you've done, the writing you've done, it all comes together here and comes through so nicely and it helps me be in the world, to a better degree. Really. I don't mean to be making too much of it. But it means alot to me right now. So, I appreciate you both taking the time to share all that you do. Really, it may seem a tad melodramatic, but its true. So, thanks. And I will be in touch soon. Jay - PS, sorry to blather on so long, but I"m excited and a little bleary from the day.
Well, now I'm excited too: congratulations on completing your first draft!! That really is a significant achievement Camus' collection of essays, "The Myth of Sisyphus" (esp. the essay from which it gets its name), grapples with the idea of striving in the face of pointlessness. It's very uplifting IMO. And in many ways it negates the threat of AI, along the lines of Vonnegut's idea of growing our souls. Anyway, kudos again for finishing your first (yes: inspired!) draft. I'll look forward to seeing/hearing more about it 🙂
I'm pretty sure barthes was gay not that it matters
Thank you for these reviews, I read the book first then a while later watched the film. Read some reviews etc. I liked both very much, partly because here was sci fi that wasn’t all AI, rockets red glare, boring heroes, American nationalism etc., Individual voices in the sci fi field are rare and a special pleasure to find; Her, The Midwich Cuckoos, Ian Banks sci fi books, Orlando by Virginia Woolf etc. Scarlet Johansen played the part of Isserley, the alien in the film. Note from a review of the film; when she, as the alien was working on the body harvesting routine they drove a van up and down looking for men to use as ‘victims’ and when they found a willing individual would sign them up on the spot and do the scene. Love the aesthetic of the film btw, just good to look at.
Thanks for listening, Barrie! There's something lovely (or creepy, or both) about this idea of the casting process reflecting the film's narrative. I wonder if those men would have signed up if they'd been familiar with the book? 😃
What a terrific and obscure group of stories about destroying your creations. Thanks folks, another intriguing podcast. Thanks for that. Really enjoyed it.
Our pleasure Jay! Glad you loved it :D
Congratulations on your first year of, I hope, many years to come. I have derived a great deal from listening to you both share your experience joy and hopes for writing. And - if I may - I'd like to recommend this one thought, as you ponder the next year and the marketing and all that that entails. Its something I read in Hermonie Lee's biography of Virginia Wolf. She described Virginia's struggle with writing - specifically that her mental health challenges were impeding her, from engaging with longer traditional novels. She wanted terribly to write a longer piece, something substantial, to be reckoned with in the literary world, but she just couldn't find the mental or physical stability to do so. Then, in the aftermath of of a recovery from a rather straining bout of mania, decided to just write short - as that was the only way she could write. Hermonie described her, in her bedroom, realizing that, perhaps, she could just link the stories and, although somewhat disjointed, find enough of a narrative from their linking. And, in the end, she did do this, and they are still, amazing poetic masterpieces of writing (in my very humble estimation). In short, my advice is go to your strengths and your weaknesses, which for me have been your 'approach-ability' - (and questions of the whole beard or no bear iconography), as they are backed up by a very real depth of knowledge, experience and joy for writing. I say this selfishly, as listening to you, as you are, in the raw form of this early podcast, has been something that has served me greatly in my (although late in life) foray into the world of writing. I delve more deeply into the whole question, and feel supported, intrigued and inspired by your podcasts. And that's not bad, you two, for your first year at it. So I send you all the best, as you enter your second year, and sincerely hope you find riches, position, authority - and the opportunity to write, yourselves. I can't think of two people, just now, who deserve it more. It's grand to be able to listen to people striving to speak to the process, the experience of writing, without all the bellowing 'braggarta'. Writing, in my experience, should humble the writer. So I think, for you Gareth, and the whole beard thing and marketing - well - you can be known as the guy who has, or does not have a beard, that you and Shannen can be known as the writers' writers. All the best folks, and thanks again for all your efforts. Please don't stop.
Thanks Jay--that's such a wonderful message! I was chuffed to read it and immediately showed it to my wife, Joan, who got a bit choked up. I very much relate to what you say about Woolf too, as I also tend to "write short"... Lately I've been giving thought to the possibility of exploring a fix-up novel, as per Kay Dick's unsettling THEY (part of the always excellent Faber Editions line. I actually linked to it last night in my first attempt at replying to you, which probably is what got the reply deleted, lol). Anyway, thanks again--your engagement and support means a great deal to Shannen and myself, and we're both looking forward to talking with you more in our second year of podcasting 😊
Glad to see you back
Thanks @Footmch, we are also glad to be back from our sabbatical :D
Great show guys, thanks for that, feeling pretty inspired 😊
Our pleasure!
I saw the movie, but have yet to read the book - although you've made that prospect much more likely. I found the movie to be grippingly odd, off in tone and pace in a way that was wonderful. Thanks for sharing all the background on the story and on Faber's life. I think I'll take a look. Kudos again guys ! Great show.
Thanks Jay 🙂 In terms of its icy eerieiness, the film reminded me of Last Year at Marienbad, which is probably my favourite film of all time (an acquired taste, I realise [lol]). The book is well worth a read!
Thanks again folks. Really find this exercise amazing. Helped me, enormously to see editing and decision making so much better, in reflection and as I write ! And as someone fairly new to writing, this is extremely motivating.
It's nice to close the gap between that first burst of inspiration and the later, critical editing process, isn't it? Thanks Jay 🙂
Thanks again folks, for another great episode in The Pleasure of the Text. As a writer, who still considers himself a "Hobby-ist" writer, I found this episode most illuminating. I have only been writing seriously for about 6 or 7 years now and don't believe I"m at a professional level with it, YET, but I do do it with tremendous passion and enthusiasm - writing for 4, or 5, or 6 hours a day (Monday to Friday). I have several projects on the go, (a short novella about a character stuck in the Bardos, in London Ontario; a screenplay based on my 30 years of experience as a Special Education Teacher; and a pet project of experimental writing - a six book series - about a Martian Archaeologist and a Southern Ontario, small town Hockey Prodigy. I have turned to some friends, who are not writers but high level readers, to review my work, and it was been most helpful. The idea of Substantive Edit process, like the one you have described, is very interesting, very intimidating but at the same time really encouraging and exciting. Thanks for that. It means a lot to me.
That's some tremendous dedication there Jay! I also have a few projects on the go; how do you decide what to work on and when? An ongoing issue for me, and I would love to hear your perspective on that one :) On another note, would you mind sending your email to [email protected]? We have a gift to send to you...
Once again a thoughtful, sincere, highly intelligent review of an overly complex infinitely important topic. Brilliant and incisive doesn't cover it. Your dive into this topic was substantial. Thanks to you both for your careful, passionate take on this weirdly inside out and upside down issue. All the best. Looking forward to next week's podcast.
Thanks Jay 😊 It’s been a challenging few weeks, topics-wise. I think Shannen and I are both looking forward to getting back to something a little lighter!
Kudos on another great espisode. Loved how ep. 1 ended. As a retired spec. ed. teacher of 30 years, I can't agree enough, diversity and creativity are essentially entwined. Nice job, again, folks.
Changing the words is too change the truth of the day. Mein Kampf is not a nice book and should be left as such. Nazis should not be painted anew. The nastieness should not be taken out. Sometimes its for satire, sometimes because the character is a jerk and sometimes because the author is. But at none of those moments, should that be allowed to be hidden.
I'm fat. I don't mind the word. It's all in the context and the tone. Words are like that. That's why writing is interesting. Don't take that away from me.
Great comments, Jay! I'm quite fascinated by your writing influences--kind of like a family tree. It would be interesting to try to map out their interconnectedness, and maybe Shannen and I will have a go at this with our own influences in a future episode... 🙂
I've been reading authors that span from Cervantes, to Swift, to Sterne to Gogol; through to Faulkner, Wolf, Orwell and Joyce and Huxley; to Abe, and Calvino; to Atwood, Lynda Barry and Douglas Adams up to Vonnegut. Its a line of writers I'm fascinated with and when I read them, I feel like I 'm hearing their voices, directly. And when I read enough of them, I feel as if I'm getting to know them, like friends. I put them all up on the wall of my writing room. They look down on me as I write - but in a nice way. I love them like I love my friends. I don't always agree with them, but I want to hear their voices, their ideas, their thoughts and desires - not someone else's. I want to know them. Also, too, I don't cancel my friends because I disagree with something they said - unless it is especially unrelentingly racist or sexist or hateful in that vein of the white supremacists. Then I might. But that's my choice and I'd like to decide who my friends are, and who aren't. I'd like to know these writers based on how they phrased things, not have someone re-describe their words, and tell me who they are, or were, and whether or not they we should be my friends. It seems insane to me. I'm not a child. I can decide for myself.
The hypocrisy of those simultaneously shouting, "Free Speech Must Never be infringed upon, where guns and abortion and other very "American" things are concerned"; whilst burning books, has never been more obvious than now. Your podcast is timely and I'm grateful to you both for your gentle, thoughtful, warm and intelligent review of the topic. Can't wait til next week !
Thanks Jay, that's really encouraging! Next episode's so long we're editing it into 2 parts, but the plan is to release both together ASAP 🙂
One of my new most enjoyed podcasts. Thanks folks. Thoughtful, deep dive into a truly brilliant writer. More more more. How about Lynda Barry's novel, "Cruddy". I'd be curious to see your thoughts on it. I believe it is a missed gem in the literary world...
Hey Jay, thanks for your lovely comment! We've added "Cruddy" to our list, and we'll definitely check it out :) Just between the three of us, our next book review will be on "Under the Skin" by Michel Faber ;)
I’m pretty sure that Romeo was in love with Rosaline, I’ll look it up. Cheers Kat
Rosaline, that's right! 😂 Thanks Kat 🙂
Thanks for the review. I did find the book gripping and hard to digest at the same time and it’s one of those reads that I‘ll keep turning over in my head for a long time.
I agree Liliya! To me, a book that stays with me in some form is always a winner!
Pavlova is aussie
Enjoyed your review... much more than the book. For me, it was just unpleasant.
Thank you for your thoughts; it certainly is a quirky book!