A channel about trains particularly those across the North of England. I will be posting videos of real trains at various stations and model railways, both my own and other layouts that I visit. There will be in-depth videos on specialist topics such as signalling and other railway infrastructure where we look at how and why the railway works like it does in the UK with special guests who are experts in their field, so sit back, relax and join me on this journey as we look at Trains Up North.
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Green lane signal box (and similar situation on others), why do signals 2 and 6 have caution signals (1 and 5) but signals 4 and 7 do not?
Good question, the distant (caution) signals apply to both the home & section signal (the stop signals). You can only clear 1 & 5 if both associated stop signals are in the off position (clear / go). If the section signal is on (showing stop), we would leave the home signal on until the train was at or almost at a stand before pulling it off. That ensures the train is going slow & doesn't pass the section signal at danger. Hope that helps and makes sense. Signalling can be a bit confusing to start with but stick with it and it will all drop into place eventually. TUN
@@TrainsUpNorth so if we could clear the home signal, but not the section signal, we would keep all signals on, until the train approaches the home signal and then we can release it and it only to allow the train to proceed up to the section signal?
@@theblockybanana5537 that's correct for current absolute block rules. It may have been different in the past as before BR different companies had different rules.
Very useful, thanks.
Thank you for your comment, I'm glad you liked it.
Having 2 signals (Signals 8 and 9) to control shunting movements is correct as they give positive indication to the train crews. In reality this wasn't always the case.Signal 9 can legitimately be left off leaving Signal 8 to control both movements (and no additional indication was necessary), provided the distance from the toe of the cross-over to the toe of the point for entry to the yard is less than 40 yards. Where the distance is greater than 40 yards, Signal 9 would be located closed to the toe of the yard entry point. The author of Constructing and Operating Semaphore Signals, from where I learnt this, got his information from an LMS document on the Sighting of Signals from 1936.
Thanks, like I have said I'm not an expert in historical signalling, I might study it eventually but I don't want to confuse myself. Brewery Junction is very similar to a layout that formed part of a signalling exam, it was produced by somebody at Network Rail.
Hi. Have you looked at DCCconcepts Jumbo Track Cleaner (Aluminium Oxide in Pure Rubber)? Their website says that "it polishes rather than scratches the rail". Another YTer (I forget whom) advocates a block of Balsa wood.
I have not, I might have to do another video looking at this and balsa wood. I should have a video coming out soon on using chemicals for track cleaning.
The deep ballasting came along with continuously welded rail.
I probably should have mentioned that but LWR & CWR is hard to model when using off the shelf track parts.
I wouldn't be overly concerned about sleeper spacings, as the real railway isn't consistent. For example, at Grantham, the Up Main has closely spaced concrete sleepers whilst the Down Main has widely spaced sleepers.
I'm not too concerned but spacing the sleepers out a bit does look better, the danger is they can move backwards and forwards and even rotate a little, not what I really want.
@TrainsUpNorth you can even find the odd rotated sleeper on the network. The northbound platform line ar Aberdeen has one (I had a boring hour there once whilst waiting for a train). The odd flaw here or their makes for a more interesting model, I feel.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 it can do but sometimes things don't look right on a model, even if they are. My first job on the railway was jacking & packing track joints to remove dipped joints.
As a former Movements Inspector I am surprised you did not cover the Warning Signal when you explained the Calling On Arm and the Shunt Ahead Arm. The Warning Signal as you will no doubt know was used where trains had been accepted by the Signal Box ahead but the line was only Clear to the outermost Home Signal the line to the Clearing Point is or could be occupied by another train. Having said that a great video which will be invaluable to modelers who often just put signals where they think they should go.
Thank you for your comments Andrew, the video was already over 30 minutes and there were a couple of signals & other things that I wanted to cover but didn't (points indicators for example). I will do another video when I get around to it but decided to concentrate on the main current ones for now. TUN
Years ago I often delivered the chemicals for impregnation of wooden sleepers to a factory in Marenholz, Germany. I often arrived late in the evening and parked on the factory ground, since it was more secure than parking on small spots along the road. But it had a prize. Sitting there among thousands of newly impregnated sleepers, was not at all good for my health. Driving away after unloading the next morning, I could feel the intoxication slowly leave my body. Environmentally I dont think wooden sleepers are any good, and I guess this is why they seem to prefer concrete now. A couple of years ago I passed the factory in Marenholz and the factory was all gone. So was the smell.
Wow, thank you for sharing, the chemicals used in the past were definitely not good for human health or the environment. Concrete sleepers may decrease in numbers now we have composite sleepers made out of recycled materials, also we can't use concrete sleepers on some bridges due to weight.
@@TrainsUpNorth Here in Denmark a lot of schools and kindergartens bought old wooden sleepers to build different things in their playgrounds. That was until they discovered how poisoness it was. Now I guess it's forbidden by law.
The gaps between lines also depended on the original builders. In some places a four track line you would have 2 pairs of lines, fast and slow, separated by the 10ft and in others we haves slow line 10ft gap fast line 6ft gap tge other fast line 10ft gap and the other sliw line.
Different companies / regions did things different ways. If you model what is right for your location it's good enough for me, after all it matters not on a model. Regarding the real railway, you just need to make sure you check your paperwork and get it right, mistakes can have serious consequences. It has been known for line side staff to get the location wrong & also signallers to block the wrong line. I had a line block one day, next thing horns & a 68 coming towards us - I was not happy.
Barrowmore MRG has a lot of useful documents including some of electrification.
Thanks, I'll check it out. Other than research I have done for my own models I don't know too much about OLE other than it's 25kv, and if you get too close it goes bang in a big way.
@@TrainsUpNorth other useful information sources aretge Railway Archieve and Limit of Shunt.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 thank you
The holes used on bullhead rails would be slightly oval in shape to allow thermal expansion/contraction. The fishplates would secure enough to prevent the rails from moving out of alignment, but would not stop the rails expanding or contracting. When initially laid in the UK, the track panels would have a 3/8th inch gap between them to allow for expansion.
Yes, you can't stop expansion. If you are replacing rails on jointed track rail temperature is critical. You don't want to take it out and not be able to get the rail back in, it has happened (not to me I might add).
Those wooden keys relied on friction and were driven into the gap between chair and rail in such a way to prevent rail creep, whic, correct me if I'm wrong,went in the opposite direction to the direction of travel on each track. On a single track line, the keys would alternate in direction; sometimes on alternate chairs and other time on alternate track panels. The metal spring clips didn't rely as much on friction but on the pressure they exerted on rail and chair. In the early days on railways, some companies tried using rounded off smooth stones as ballast. Whilst it looked pretty it didn't stop the track moving around unliie tge jagged rough stone used elsewhere. The ballast also provides most of the suspension for trains as the train wheels have a very limited freedom of movement compared to the wheels of road vehicles (plus trains lack pneumatic tyres). There are stories of traditional short wheelbase wagons bouncing off tracks with too firm a ballast bed at speedmuch lower than their speed limit; a firmer ballast bed is needed for higher running speeds.
Indeed keys are put in so the force of the train pushes it into the chair to prevent it coming loose, it doesn't always work especially with wooden keys that expand & contract depending on the weather. Some metal clips are basically the same as wooden keys & come out just as often. I can see how rounded stone wouldn't work for ballast. Dipped joints / track are a big problem when it comes to ride quality. You can indeed get waggons and even coaches coming off the track if the frequency of movement and vehicle suspension is just right, it's like a wave that gets bigger and bigger until it literally bounces off the track. On jointed track we use MSP and shims to make the joint as smooth as possible. Units like pacers are good for picking up bad joints although not running on the main line anymore. Failing that track measurement train & a tamper work wonders.
Better on rail than on road!
Couldn't agree more, if rail freight stopped today we would soon see the impact on the roads and shops.
Yes I discovered these last year and they made a great difference 👍😎
I did consider colour changing LEDs so I could simulate a day night cycle as I'm having working street lights & building lights but decided against this due to cost.
A simplied version of these shunt movement doesn't involve other signal boxes as it requires a Limit of Shunt sign at Brewery Junction. This would be located short of the start of the Red Field section. It could even involve passing an Intermediate Home signal under the control oa second Shunting disc.
LOS boards are only for wrong direction moves, the section signal acts as the normal limit of authority. In this scenario the grain train was too long to fit between the points and the section signal so we had to enter the section. We could not do this without the authority of Redfield (unless Redfield SB was closed when we started the move). We can not enter the section until the passenger train was out of the section, although for shunting we don't need the clearing point to be clear. I am basing this on current practice and historic practice may have differed. Hope that makes sense TUN.
'promosm'
In addition to limited openings of signalboxes on freight lines some signalboxes on lines with passenger trains had limited openings as well. Often these ignalboxes only opened when a freight train had to use a set of sidings.
Very true Neil. I am thinking of having Brewery Junction closed and locked out as my videos progress. As rail traffic declines this box will eventually be closed altogether and I was thinking of then having the section run from Green Lane - Redfield. If traffic increases which I'm sure it will we could look at intermediate block signals and even TCB as we progress. What are your thoughts on this?
@@TrainsUpNorth it's certainly in line with the practices of the real railways. Why remove something completely unless absolutely necessary. Although "Rule 1" still applies.
It's one of them where I am trying to get information over on a complex subject in a way that everyone can understand, those who already know, know. Removing a signal box & then adding intermediate block signalling would allow people to follow the same diagram and hopefully won't be too confusing, plus I don't have to completely redraw it. In the real world we might not do that but I want to get the basic principles over. As I build on these I can go deeper and deeper into it. I just wanted to ask you as you obviously know your stuff. 🙂
@@TrainsUpNorth I'm just a well read amateur. You've done a grand job so far. Clear, concise and accurate.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 thank you.
Thank you for the video and showing a few things.
No problem, I will try to keep it up.
Can I use this on analogue dc layout with dc controller ?
I believe you can but I haven't tried it. I can't see how the sound functions would work in DC. If you have a DCC loco you might be better with blanking plates and sounds from somebody like Train Tech if you want to use it on a DC layout.
Good on you. Thanks.
Cheers, I will try to keep it up.
This video should have 2 likes from me, but won't let me.
Black and blue levers were also used on mechanical signalling systems where the mechanism for changing the point also locked it, as can be found at Orton Mere on the Nene Valley Railway.
That's why I love this aspect of signalling, it makes perfect common sense.
Train reporting numbers can be a minefield as each region used letters internally for locations on their own regiom and a neighbouring region would use them for their own internal destinations, along side the inter regional letters. What was worse in the early days the letter A could refer to trains to and from London. In some areas, like Teesside, the letter assigned to a freight train referred to the destination between Tees Yard and Skinningrove steel works independent of the route taken (prior to the 1960s there were 2 routes). These letters had to be displayed or removed when passing Tees signal box. M would normally indicate a train heading the the Midland region, but east of Tees signal box it meant a train heading for Cargo Fleet Inner Junction or the Eston branch. Theyvwere still in use into the 1980s but as the industry on Teesside reduced these headcodes were no longer needed and they used the letter indicating trip workings. The letters used were A, K, M, S, g, P, J and O. In the days before the alphanumeric headcodes lamps were used for tye same purpose the equivalent lamps to the letter M was centre and above left hand buffer. As for the numbers 00 was also used for certain classification of trains (mainly see on parcels trains) and for the following destination letters F, G, X or Z on the Eastern Region (and maybe on other regions well). Limit of shunt and the Barrowmore MRG have documents available for looking at for more details. If the headcodes starts 0 then the next letter indicates the region or district a light engine is travelling to and the last 2 numbers indicate the shed it is going to, for example 0N20 indicates a light engine movement to Gateshead depot. When the locomotive is heading from a depot to work a train the headcode starts with 0 but the rest of the headcodes is the train headcode do if the train headcode is 1A34 then the light engine to work thus train would be 0A34 (the empty coaching stock movement would have the headcode 5A34.
Yes head codes are a topic all on their own. I came across some of the white headcode disks in the office with numbers on them, after asking a few people what the numbers were for, and getting the "I don't know, why are you even asking" reply one of the older guys told me they were used on a project years ago to identify trains within a possession. Great idea but not in any of the rulebooks I have seen.
@@TrainsUpNorth some things are done on adhoc basis but never make the rule books.
You can still find the pre-groupimg mile posts on some line. The NER used posts with points to indicate the quarter miles - one on top for 1/4 mile, 2 points (one in either side) for half mile and all 3 points (top and both sides) for 3/4 mile. Where the lines of different companies ran parallel to each other the lines would have their own mile markers with co many boundary markers. You can still see Midland Railway boundary markers on the ECML in Peterborough between the former MR tracks that go to Leicester and the former GNR tracks of the ECML. However, the ECML down slow is also the, IIRC, the former up line to Leicester. PS that was one of the more succinct definitions of of Up and Down I've heard in a long while.
Thank you, for your comments, it's certainly true that you learn something new everyday on the railway. I know of a couple of lines where the mileage goes through 0 but the up and down doesn't change, it does get a little confusing sometimes.
Most excellent guide; my only confusion is with speakers; which one to get for my DCC ready loco, where to place it firmly and how to install all the bits together.
Thank you for your comment. If you get the HM 7000 chip from Hornby it comes with the required speaker. Regarding placing the speaker without knowing the loco make / model I can't help, but if you do a search on the internet, KZread or one of the many forums I'm sure you will find what you are looking for. Hope that helps TUN.
Most helpful info thanks@@TrainsUpNorth
Wow, thats a lot of information! Thank you for making it. I would like to see a version of this for people like me who havs always been interested in this stuff, but know nothing.
Thank you for your encouraging words. I try to pitch these videos so that people who are new to railway signalling can understand them and plan on making many more.
Main signals could be located on the wrong side of the track for sighting purposes (typically on a curve), but where this was not possible a banner repeater would be used.
Thank you for your comment, I should have mentioned this in the video. If I thought there was enough demand I would do a video on signal sighting. TUN
Sorry, I can't find your name. I have watched quite a few videos on the HM7000 system. It's a brilliant idea, but it's not perfect - yet! Several people have found that they need to repeat setting up the system before it "takes". I have purchased several HM7000 sound decoders for my locos (TT:120), but don't have a layout set up at the moment. Like you, I will most likely set up the decoder with the app and then switch to DCC for operating the locos. I too prefer to twiddle knobs on a controller handset.
Thanks for your comments Paul. As with many new products a little bit of tinkering is needed, all the best for your layout.
The great thing about this decoder is you can change cvs while the loco is moving and you don't have to put it on a seperate track to change things I think it is great and with all the updates from Hornby on the sound files I believe the sounds will only get better these are ecmxcellent value for money if you have a few locos to put sound in
I think for the price of them you can't go wrong I think they are great well done Hornby !!!
Yes, some Hornby products have been lacking recently but this along with the magnetic couplings are some of the ones that they have done really well.
Thanks for the background information 👍
Your welcome, glad you enjoyed it.
Did the music add anything to the video?
Thank you for your comment, I hope to improve as I continue to grow the channel.
junctions please. Could you illustrate the use of signals when you have converging and diverging tracks when you have 2 up and two down lines please and the use of smaller signals with red and white horizontal lines. (semaphore)
Thank you for your comment, yes I can do that. I have already started on the video about junction, depot and subsidiary signals. TUN
Of course the reason the sleeper spacing is wrong for 00 is because Peco track is HO scale. It did seem that for me, the amount of time and effort spacing them all out was no less work, and no less difficult, than making your own plain track - but of course in this hobby we all do it the way we want to so no criticism! Note also that you can buy bullhead track with the correct 00 sleeper spacing from Peco, SMP Scaleway, C&L and DCC concepts.
Thank you for your comment. I was going to use bullhead for the heritage line and sidings but I wasn't sure how joining bullhead and FB would work. I did email Peco when my local model shop didn't know the answer but got no reply, this was when it first came out a few years back. The main bit is modernish image so FB is the way to go here, plus quite a bit of track is from my previous layout. I've never built my own track and you are probably right with the time & effort involved. I've not come across SMP Scaleway before so I will keep an eye out for that. Take care & happy modelling TUN.
You can join the FB and bullhead using a standard code 100 rail joiner, you just squeeze the half that is on the FB flat against the rail with some pliers so it holds firm. Some care is needed to make sure the railheads end up at the same height for a smooth join. Peco do also make a code 75 to code 100 transition piece, although it is expensive for what it is. You could use that from your code 100 FB, and then use a code 75 rail joiner to join it to the bullhead as I described above. As the rail depths are the same, the code 75 FB to bullhead join will be easier to get the rail heads at the same height.
@@uproid thanks for the information, I think the rest of the heritage line will now be bullhead. TUN
Thank you, very informative.
Glad you enjoyed it. 👍
I spotted a major typing error so have reposted this video with this corrected, I don’t know how this got through the checking process and I apologise for this. In the original @neiloflongbeck5705 posted the following comment “There were a few crashes at termini, Moorgate being probably the most famous, and railway companies since the 1920s have looked for ways to prevent such accidents. From the 1970s IIRC it became standard practice at termini to signal trains into platforms on a single yellow instead of green.” Thank you for your comment.
Beware, superglue will eat expanded polystyrene. Stick to PVA :)
I've made this mistake before many years ago, also the same thing with plastic glue.
A good effort at explaining semaphore signals. Shame your video was sometimes showing things other than what you were talking about.
Unfortunately I couldn't justify walking along the track to get all the footage I wanted for the video. My other option would have been to walk across a very wet and muddy farmer's field, I decided against this. I take your comment onboard and I will work to improve the videos over time. TUN
Hiya, What power pack do you use on this layout please?
I use a Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance 2 for the track and an old computer power supply for point motors, lights etc. I have wired up the layout so I can add train detection and automation at a later date. TUN
I didn't know the height of a signal is an indicator of the speed limit before today, Thanks for the video!
As they say, everyday is a school day. Glad you enjoyed the video. TUN
What were the cutters you used to trip those point rods. I did some research and did not hit a lot of genuine winners yours looked good. And those terminal strips are WAY better way to go than the mess I recently put on my vids. Great stuff
Thank you. I got them years ago, I'm sorry I can't remember the brand. I got them as track cutters but they have now been relegated to thinner stuff as I now have some Xuron cutters. TUN
These Scenic3D point motor jigs are an excellent piece of kit. Life's so much easier using one of these
I agree, I've got several for different types of points such as 3 way and slips. I use DCC Concepts point motors but you can get them for tortoise motors too. 🙂
@TrainsUpNorth I know Geoff from Scenic3D would appreciate another video showing the name. Packaging and where you purchased them online, as this helps grow his business. Your video is one of the best I've seen because you didn't just talk about it and assumed everyone would understand that you demonstrated the whole installation.
Agreed the DCC concepts template is a joke. All holes should have been an extra couple of mm bigger than reccomended.
There should now be a link to the Scenic3D website, I couldn't remember where I got them from, I have many more points to do including single & double slips so I will mention them again. TUN
Thanks for this video. We have an out-of-service semaphore at the heritage railway station I work at in the USA, but I don't really know much about semaphores. This video is a great introduction to them and the ways they're used in the UK for my reference.
Thank you for your comment, I'm glad you liked the video. TUN
Very informative video. however some of the video does not match with the audio. EG at 5:10 you are describing didtant signals but shoe a home signal with a train passing.
Thank you for your comment. I wasn't able to get any footage of trains passing a distant signal as it would have been inappropriate to walk the line just for a KZread video. I could have walked across a very wet and muddy farm field to get the footage but again decided against that. I did get a couple of people to review the video before publishing and I hope that this footage did not confuse as that was not the intention. I take your feedback onboard and will use it to improve future videos. Thanks for watching TUN.
4:12 Your mention of SPADs has made me realise that they too will soon be a thing of the past on the London UndergrounD. Or at least drivers being penalised for them. All this because of modern technology which is using the tried and tested track circuit electronic monitoring system and has led to the upsetting removal of the trackside signals - even though they're not nice traditional semaphore ones. Returning to SPADs, who gets the blame now I wonder? Some faceless techie in Frankfurt or Shrewsbury or wherever?
Thank you for your comment, SPADs have always been an issue whenever you have a human driver. All we can do is hope that with technology the risk is reduced. I'm not saying don't have a human driver, just that we need to understand human factors when designing and operating systems. In my opinion blame culture doesn't help when it comes to safety, if I report my near miss myself or my mate will get into trouble so let's not report it. Next time that near miss could be an accident. Fortunately the rail industry is changing, but it takes time. I have no involvement with LU so can't comment on what they do / plan to do. TUN
I was well chuffed to come across this video as I'm just getting round to thinking about signalling on my layout. Im now a subscriber.
Thank you. Signalling is such a complex subject, my advice would be to take your time and research it. Hope your layout comes out the way you want. TUN.
The best place to observe semaphore signals is on the main line to Penzance, but don’t delay as they won’t last for ever.
As much as I love semaphore signals at over 700 miles for a round trip it is a little bit too far for me. I'll have to stick to heritage railways. For mainline operations Hellifield in North Yorkshire has some semaphores, plus you have the scenic Settle to Carlisle railway from there.
Heritage lines tend to fit signals typical for that line from days of old. So, the KWVR uses a mixture of Midland Railway, LMS and BR(MR). However there are exceptions to this rule of thumb such as the ex-GNR somersault signals at Wansford which is on a former LNWR line. Acceptable to all but the most fussy of rivet counters, especially as most of the NVR's rolling stock isn't even British.
Heritage railways will always need to adapt and compromise to survive. I was at a steam gala on an ex LMS line where somebody was complaining about the western loco, yet they had come to see the Flying Scotsman which was ok. You can't please everybody I suppose.
For those travelling from Leicester to Peterborough you can still find an ex-Midland Railway lower quadrant signal on the Peterborough direction side controlling trains heading for Leicester for sighting reasons. The line has a mixture of colour light signals and upper quadrant semaphore signals, save for the ex-MR signal.
I wasn't aware of this one, just goes to show how complex the UK rail network is and just how much legacy infrastructure is out there.
For those wanting a more in depth explanation then you can do no worse than visiting the Signalbox (it has track diagrams of signal locations for locations all over the UK covering most railway companies and a bit on the signals) or Railway Signs and Signals of Great Britain (covers signal types from the earliest days through to today).
Useful tool, not sure if I'd go to the bother spacing them out to look more accurate but it's certainly something I'll bear in mind.
Thank you for your comment. It is time consuming if you have a lot of track. I'm not up to making my own track & converting stock, so for me this is a happy medium. TUN.