Philip Goff is a philosopher who thinks consciousness pervades the universe. Keith Frankish is a philosopher who thinks consciousness* doesn't even exist. From their very different perspectives, Keith and Philip interview leading scientists and philosophers of consciousness, engaging and debating in a friendly way in pursuit of truth. Mind Chat aims to be highly accessible, allowing those with no background in science and/or philosophy to get a grip on the cutting edge of the field.
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twitter.com/keithfrankish
twitter.com/Philip_Goff
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*To be more precise, Keith thinks *phenomenal* consciousness doesn't exist, although he does think consciousness exists in other senses. What is phenomenal consciousness? Watch Mind Chat and you'll find out!
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Zombie world sounds like a psychopath's worldview. Things that act like people but have no soul, are not really embued with the same feelings as the psycopath.
<<< Crimes Against Humanity and SELECTIVE GENOCIDE !!! ! Aren't they Fundamental ??
Philip Goff is a charlatan very good at doging the points. Way to go, Sean!
how would to seem to Mary if the visual input suddenly included pain or sound? if a ball suddenly turned from red to gratitude? why doesnt that happen? we have no clue at all other than "but thats wrong, that couldnt happen". and yet syntetesia happen. people hear colors. seeing red or blue is not about knowledge. its not a new fact. its just one of many inner experiences we can have. those that have done drugs probably have seen colors we never normally experiences. its not nee knowledge in itself.
Philip Goff is nice to listen to. His pleasant voice disguises the fact that he speaks in Deepak Chopra levels of word salad. He's the worst kind of philosopher -- the kind that takes a topic that nobody knows anything about (consciousness in his case), so that nothing can be tested or disproved, and then simply speculates. Everything is conscious. Ok. Who cares? Is that all you've got? I can't believe he makes a living doing this. At least he has a nice voice.
If the answer to Mary's room is pain is nothing more than its functions ...
Contrary Mary is an expert at experiencing her visual senses. She has perfect eyesight and acuity and ability to differentiate on sight all shades of colour. Her phenomenological experiences of colour are perfectly clear and accurate and complete. She then goes into a room and studies the neuroscience of vision for the very first time. Does she learn anything new? Has she gained new knowledge?
Panpsychism almost sounds like god of the gaps argument except it is consciousness (whatever that is) being used to fill the gaps.
Resolution of choice. Complex choices require complex conscious agents. Simple choices don’t require complex conscious agents, but they require some base level conscious agency. Panpsychism is providing an answer to the ‘why’ question, which physics doesn’t address. Physics only describes forces and lacks explaining why these forces happen. We can say that the simplest systems have the simplest choices, and the layering of systems which give emergence to more complex systems give rise to greater and greater degrees of freedom of choice. Why does gravity occur? Because of a universal entity which has the constrained choice matrix of the force of gravity. That doesn’t mean it’s a god or it’s a person with a brain, but it means that choices are fundamental, and we perceive choices incorrectly as being the result of intelligent beings processing information and acting on that information. Information is fundamental and so are choices?
This would mean that brains do not generate consciousness, but instead are highly efficient and powerful consciousness controllers, which are able to generate much higher degrees of freedom of choice
Consciousness is drivel....awareness is real
Nice chat. Thank you
the point of the zombie argument sean makes is that accepting the possibility of the zombie absolutely obviates the need to assume any of this supposed “consciousness” at the core level
What Does Physics Tell Us About Consciousness?...physics doesn't do consciousness... that is for the tin foil hat club but truth be told ... awareness is all that is going on in the brain.
Liuke has a good point about the relevance of the combination problem to all theories
Sean Carroll wiped the floor with Phillip and definitely won the debate. Philip’s argument is just so untenable. Team Carroll.
Sean provides examples and understanding and clarity to his side; whereas, Philip doesn't really provide any substance to his side and he waffles a lot and speaks defensively and he talks a lot but he doesn't say much. The win goes to Sean, for sure.
hey phil goff not sure if you read these comments. but iv ben playing your speeches on rpt every night when i go to sleep for quite some time now . i dont have a scientific background but i one hundred percent think youve cracked it. so please keep going and yeats from now youl he renouned like Einstein haha also the Cosmos emerged like evolution...iv often wondered about random changes in human evolution doesnt quite make sense. like how the little bone in ye ear was once a fish fin. why did I make that joirney from a gillbto an ear because any one step woulnt of made an evolutionary advantage .it took millenial to migrate. i feel there is an underlying conversation goin on like mother to the womb that helps design optimise. same with child from womb same with evolution and same with cosmic consciousness
If IIT is to be taken seriously then the consciousness of the US (phi value) would be less than that of it's nodes (people) whereas for people, their phi would be higher than their nodes (neurons). This is because even though the amount of information is greater it is much less integrated.
1:27:26 Goff wouldn't know dialectics versus metaphysics if it bit his arse! The absolute state of modern philosophy! Oh the Humanities!
50:46 What do you think Ezekiel's and Alex Grey's eye-monsters are, Philip!? They're zooming in all the way to the "pixels" of their fkn imagination! They're literally perceiving their own neural activity! I was able to tie my own eye-monster experience to my own neural activity, so there you go! QED! Goff's Error! Idealism is Bunk! 🤪
I love the way that Chomsky schools these two 'educated'' fools..nodding dogs ( pretending that they understand). That's what they are, nothing more...the Ant & Dec of philosophy...ha,ha!
"Before the action we are wise, and after the action we are wise, but during the action we are usually otherwise....." Raj Neesh. said, i think....Pan-psychism is just the latest '"slouching towards Bethlehem"...towards a belief in the "Almighty"....
Bloody hell. Trying to turn something imaginary into God....same old shit....pan psychism....good on you Noam.
Brilliant experience in the listening to, eh. Spot on.
I think one of the problems of panpsychism is that the idea is unfalsifyible . You can't interrogate the teensy monads and see whats going on in their teensy brains. It is like dark matter-it fixes the math.
That “something deeper” could be consciousness itself.
What would it mean for something to exist independent of a conscious observer?
I stopped listening after a while. Goff is great but the existentialist interviewer was going off memory of what Sartre told him 40 years ago. In other words, irrelevant. I'll stick to Goff on American podcasts
Does the universe have personal agency beyond just lifeforms having personal agency? If not, then our ability to predict some place like Venus and its weather shouldn't be affected by personal agency. That means the prediction errors have other causes that this free will argument isn't accounting for. The butterfly effect is ultimately about rounding errors in fine-tuned systems that make models inaccurate for predictions too far out. How can this free will argument differentiate between rounding errors and free will?
This Philips WHOLE argument is "bu bu but i feel a thing!!!" 🤦♀️🌏☮️
The problem is physics hit a brick wall...... We've reached the limit of what we can prove..... And we may never ever find the answer..... Right now it's like a dog chasing his tail
Fight nice kids😅
Something exists.... point blank.....call it God call it peanut butter and jelly.......but this whole existence didn't just pop out of absolutely nothing...... there's a bottom to reality for sure
What a fascinating subject that of consciousness. While I welcome the “thinking outside the box” efforts panpsychism brings to the table, - and actually admit a small bias toward liking the idea of something similar to it being the case - on this debate I feel like Sean was much clearer and concise in explaining his reasoning than Philip. Philip kept saying “we bridged the gap” or “we solved it” but never really explained how exactly in my opinion. I have purchased his latest book (Why?) to see if he is able to better present such ideas. The subjective experience of consciousness is very rich and layered, and engaging in practices like meditation and psychedelics really emphasize this in my opinion. So at this time my analytical and pragmatic mind sides with Sean, while my intuitive and spiritual sides see something worth investigating further with classically unorthodox approaches such as Panpsychism. The thing here of course is that like it or not, logic tends to have a much better track record than intuition. Would love to hear the thoughts of people who find themselves in a somewhat similar spot.
People sometimes bring up Frank Jackson's conversion to physicalism as a point to weaken the knowledge argument, as if the argument was so bad the creator had to abandon it. So, it was interesting hearing that he switched to illusionism, and he still thinks the knowledge argument needs to be taken seriously by physicalists. I wonder if the deeper disagreement isn't between physicalists and anti-physicalists, but between those who take the epistemic gap presented by qualia seriously, and those who don't.
Psychedelics are a great litmus test to see whether a philosopher is actually interested in learning the truth about reality or whether they would rather just have an academic career or appear clever to others.
Very helpful! Thanks!
Take this from a child of the Haight Ashbury and the Summer Of Love; I personally witnessed and experienced the power of psychedelics. ‘67 was magical. ‘71- not so great. Lots of tragic cases that had nothing to do with the actual substance responsible for release as the actual substance of what was released. Abuse, mental illness, fear, social isolation. I saw a lot of situations where I understood that the gamble a person had taken for personal enlightenment didn’t pay off. I had genuinely good experiences with psychedelics but the most profound experience I have ever had was giving the sweater off my back to a homeless person and he became Jesus Christ right in front of me. His face was beatification in real life. I will never forget that.
@philip. Your microphone is popping. Very distracting. Do not speak directly into it. Search: microphone popping.
I did Psychedelics when I was younger and it was an amazing experience. The way I did shrooms was on pizza, l also did LSD. I had a bad trip when i took overdose on LSD and that was my last time. Would love to try them out again.
Once I took shrooms on accident they were in a chocolate bar and my fat ass thought it was regular chocolate 😂
[adamsflakesx] Ships psychedelics
@@userconspiracynut how can I reach out??
Is it Instagram?
Yeah, he has variety of stuffs like Mushrooms, LSD, DMT, MDMA even the chocolate bars
You don’t release a podcast anymore?
We do, it's just naughty Keith hasn't but them up for a bit. They'll go up eventually. Philip
Great episode. Great guests!
thanks Aaron!
1:04:02 The horror, says Keith of being “No longer confident that the nature of your experiences is completely revealed to you.” This is the crux, isn’t it? Are you really “open” to a new reality or not? Or are you just putting a psychedelic cover on the same album?
Absolutely phenomenal! 😄
Aiden looks like Shoenice's son
Welcome back gents! Aidan seems to be something of a mystic -- albeit perhaps covertly. I'd love to hear from more philosophers like him! Keith, so sorry for the loss of your good friend. Happily, the evidence (collected by scholars and scientists over decades) that you'll meet him in the afterlife is overwhelming. Please have Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove on the show to discuss that evidence, and its implications for philosophy :)
So tired of videos wirh sound volume levels that inaudible
I can hear just fine?
Goff's ENTIRE argument is just one giant appeal to ignorance fallacy. Again, like sean says, his argument explains nothing. He believes that because physics cant explain consciousness, it must be fundamental. In his last rebuttal, he mentions that we "need" a connecting theory, and because physics can't connect them at this very moment, his theory must be right. The absence of current physical evidence does not prove ANYTHING about his claim. A whole debate about nothing 😂😂😂
Y de Fock are the Sounds so friggin low ?
What deletes my comments, and why?
The KZread bot and only the algorithm knows. ;-)
@@schmetterling4477 It's really bizarre. I've noticed if I post one comment too long, thereafter nothing I post is accepted. No message, no nothing; I just disappear.
@@markrobert5060 KZread has the worst system, indeed. So why am I here? Because this is where the trolls are. ;-)