You did a solid job. But realistically a Galaxy class should defeat an Intrepid class in a straight 1v1. Galaxy class ships just pack a huge punch.
@jonharper447816 сағат бұрын
The only way you were winning that fight was with those specialized Torpedos. Good as the Sovereign is, the Odyssey class is just on another level.
@Yoti198019 сағат бұрын
Is this the Kobiyashi Maru mod or something else?
@jasonx9591Күн бұрын
wow that looks horrible...
@Ds9Defiant1701BКүн бұрын
what do you mean?
@amp829523 сағат бұрын
The game's 22 years old, cut it some slack
@nathanialballard3460Күн бұрын
Good job, Worf!
@Ds9Defiant1701BКүн бұрын
Q'apla
@ByteScout71Күн бұрын
Does this count as "roadkill" ?
@natemadill23902 күн бұрын
Not even a close battle
@Garvey64LIVE642 күн бұрын
this game looks super fun...
@Ds9Defiant1701B2 күн бұрын
Its the best star trek ship fight game
@Garvey64LIVE642 күн бұрын
@@Ds9Defiant1701B how do I get it?
@GreatestCornholio18 сағат бұрын
@@Ds9Defiant1701BI preferred Klingon Academy, but it’s very dated now.
@CaptainMarkReed2 күн бұрын
JJ Enterprise destroyed by Ent-A nacelle. Huh, what a plan! It worked! 🤣
@Ds9Defiant1701B2 күн бұрын
yeah honestly didn't plan this but instead of redoing the fight i just went ah fuck it lmao
@thechet3 күн бұрын
Enterprise used Sideswipe, It was super effective!
@Ds9Defiant1701B2 күн бұрын
Nacelle damaged but hey at least enemy ship is gone right?
@thechetКүн бұрын
@@Ds9Defiant1701B I know a Ferengi that can fix it for three fiddy bars of latinum
@skylerroxasmidoriyatardisp28824 күн бұрын
A more Valiant effort put forward than the Valiant
@Ds9Defiant1701B4 күн бұрын
I see what you did here tho. you can also check for the rematch
@TheBigExclusive4 күн бұрын
Have you ever tried out the "Bridge Commander Remastered" Mod pack? I'm curious what you think of the ships and battles.
@Ds9Defiant1701B4 күн бұрын
@@TheBigExclusive yeah since i have a 2k monitor it doesn't load well on my pc
@richardched60852 күн бұрын
@@Ds9Defiant1701Byeah, it also doesn't work on mine either for that same reason lol.
@RegBeta4 күн бұрын
Warp engines have been destroyed....(me thinking calling for help from the Enterprise-D is a must right now)😂
@Ds9Defiant1701B4 күн бұрын
@@RegBeta yeah the ship was in pretty bad shape
@RegBeta4 күн бұрын
@Ds9Defiant1701B I'm surprised it survived a fight against an Romulan Warbird. A Galaxy Class like the Enterprise-D would be sweating bullets thinking about going toe to toe with one.
@Ds9Defiant1701B4 күн бұрын
@@RegBeta i was surprised too
@danielhausser8038Күн бұрын
Warp engines do still look fine IMO 😂
@sarcasticguy43114 күн бұрын
Guy flies a starship like he's never driven a car or played a flight simulator.
@Ds9Defiant1701B4 күн бұрын
those ships aren't the easiest to fly in this game tho
@sarcasticguy43113 күн бұрын
@@Ds9Defiant1701B Fly towards your opponent at maximum impulse. Hit the brakes and hang right underneath the other ship. Stay there and shoot. Then we don't need two ships flying around since the weapons are insta-hit or tracking anyway. The idea is less maneuvering and more getting out of the sight lines of the weapons.
@adailyllama47865 күн бұрын
Shenanigans. LOL.
@thechet6 күн бұрын
Eject-o nacelles-o cuz!
@Ds9Defiant1701B6 күн бұрын
lmao i see what you did here
@MrComicalmoodydan7 күн бұрын
Much better.
@JK-xp5jv7 күн бұрын
Despite all that firepower the Sovreign Class has no way to detect clocked ships.
@Ds9Defiant1701B7 күн бұрын
yep its kinda funny tho
@MrComicalmoodydan7 күн бұрын
Gah, your tactics are horrible, stay up front right where many of its weapons are. Taking too many hits instead of at least staying back a bit and trying to avoid some weapons plus it looks like it was a little weapons light on the bottom side yet you stayed in front up close taking hits. Fine weak points stick to one area, haul back a bit and spam those quantums, this was winnable.
@Ds9Defiant1701B7 күн бұрын
this is why i released a rematch
@raymondtromp74727 күн бұрын
The peson who put this together is an idiot. You dont go head to head. You also rotate your ship so the bottom shields get pounded and the top get to recover. You also run away when shit aint working. Head to head is stupid work like a gorilla This is not swords duel this is survaval. Get more ships, find an astroid field, or like use tractor beam and rip other guys ship into peaces.
@PKPhoenix837 күн бұрын
Someone really needs to mod the battleship. Not enough weapons, they fire too slow and the shields and armor should be better. Remember, this is supposed to be 3x the power of a War Galaxy.
@skylerroxasmidoriyatardisp28823 күн бұрын
I thought Nog said in the episode it was 3x the size of a Galaxy
@PKPhoenix832 күн бұрын
@@skylerroxasmidoriyatardisp2882 Twice the size of the Galaxy Class and three times as powerful. And as the Lakota is lesser than a Galaxy, at least an upgraded one, this should be an even greater mismatch.
@alexvives13357 күн бұрын
Nice tactic, staying in the Jem'Hadar battleship's blind spot.
@danielredman67617 күн бұрын
Rubbish
@travisaugustine72648 күн бұрын
This was a winnable battle. Try again, only this time stay out of the Dominion Battleships forward arcs.
@Ds9Defiant1701B8 күн бұрын
going to try a rematch then
@technerd898 күн бұрын
To this day it remains a tragedy what they did to an otherwise great Galaxy class model in KM. It's like they took a belt sander to the bridge and nacelles.
@02ujtb006268 күн бұрын
I like this refit Ambassador. If starfleet kept them refitted and updated rather than relegating them to secondary roles they would have been beasts in the Dominion war.
@Ds9Defiant1701B8 күн бұрын
yep they would have been beasts indeed but i think since it was an Ambassador class it was mainly for exploration and diplomatics missions
@02ujtb006268 күн бұрын
@@Ds9Defiant1701B well if they used the Miranda class....just sayin lol. On a serious note though the Galaxy class's were mostly diplomatic and explorative too, but with some modifications it was an effective battleship. They should have done the same for thr Ambassador's. I know there is a real world reason they didn't use them, so maybe the in-uni reason is that they had been sidelined for so long the refitting process would have been too intense during war time.
@cmj09297 күн бұрын
@@02ujtb00626yeah those Dominion Galaxy refits were SCARY like put down a galor in a few shots scary
@UTSareth7 күн бұрын
In lore I don't think there were that many
@02ujtb006265 күн бұрын
@@UTSareth probably not now that you mention it. Their production line wasn't very long before the Galaxy class was being designed then launched in the late 2350's. And during the "lost era" Excelsior's were abundant. I heard a theory that the Ambassador class was plagued with technical issues. The class was too ambitious for the duotronic circuitry it was installed with so it didn't perform much better than existing Excelsior's. A massive refit of the new isolinear circuitry was mandated but it was a process, and shortly thereafter the Galaxy class was launched specifically designed with isolinear circuitry. So basically the Ambassador class was outshined by both her predecessor and successor.
@Alamandorious8 күн бұрын
Uhhh...why were those torps bypassing the shields?
@Ds9Defiant1701B8 күн бұрын
honestly idk
@CaptainMarkReed2 күн бұрын
Maybe Geordi was used as a spy again 😂
@Barrobroadcastmaster8 күн бұрын
Can we get a remaster of this game? Or a proper sequel?
@Ds9Defiant1701B8 күн бұрын
i wish
@jaredcolon45358 күн бұрын
OK retrobadger needs to see this video and try it
@stratfordbaby9 күн бұрын
Would've made more sense to go after the Bird that was actively firing at you and much closer.
@Alex-nj3dj9 күн бұрын
skill issue
@wtfa29109 күн бұрын
Brave
@TheBigExclusive9 күн бұрын
This is the original Galaxy class right? I think the Dominion War refit Galaxy class would do much better.
@Ds9Defiant1701B8 күн бұрын
probably it would help yeah
@Renserin9 күн бұрын
Great Bird of the Galaxy, I've seen the Scimitar take out everything people could throw at it. To see the Defiant kick it's aft is something I didn't expect to see.
@mrichar910 күн бұрын
Your nacelles lasted 2 seconds exactly hahhaa 😅😅
@BigHairyKev10 күн бұрын
*Fantastic! Have a Great Weekend!* ⭐😃👍
@sosministriesrev141210 күн бұрын
I think the battle is potentially accurate but it would depend on tactics , the Lakota in the Dominion war era was the most advanced excelsior with late 24th century tech, phasers and quantum Torpedoes. The defiant has agility but the Lakota has mass and firepower.
@TheBigExclusive10 күн бұрын
Hmmm...it would be interesting if you tried this same battle, but limit yourself to half speed. Since that's the same handicap the Enterprise E had to do in the movie. The Briar Patch was messing with their engines. It was like trying to swim through watery sand. Slow and hard to do.
@rarevhsuploads499511 күн бұрын
Very few players utilise the tractor beam in this game. Especially useful for larger starships against smaller targets.
@Ds9Defiant1701B11 күн бұрын
yeah i know i had a good reason to keep it there so i did tho
@markaous121211 күн бұрын
There was a time I destroyed an ambassador in a shuttle 😂
@MrHindsightProphet11 күн бұрын
Should be two defiants vs the sov. The Defiant is a tough little ship, but the Enterprise is a monster of a ship.
@Ds9Defiant1701B7 күн бұрын
i'll try that soon thanks for the idea
@IceGavel6 күн бұрын
It'd take a lot more than two Defiants to kill a Sovereign - I'm thinking no less than five, and probably closer to eight or ten. Defiant is capable and has decent weapons, but it's a ship _literally_ designed and built to hunt in _wolf packs._
@61089loki5 күн бұрын
@@IceGavel iirc, the defiant was meant to be deployed in 3 ship wings, according to the DS9 Technical manual.
@IceGavel4 күн бұрын
@@61089loki Or, in other words, a wolf pack, yes.
@lglg695012 күн бұрын
The AI is horrible in this game. Cloaking while your holding still right in front of the enemy LOL
@chuchulainn927512 күн бұрын
You're taking a lot of unnecessary hits. The problem is you are fighting like a ship of the line. Think of the Defiant as more of a cloaked fighter. Cloak, get close, unload the disruptors, run away, cloak again. Same with torpeoes. Cloak, unload as many torpedoes as you can, then cloak again before you get targeted.
@Ds9Defiant1701B12 күн бұрын
yeah i'll try to do a rematch with this idea
@acebrandon352212 күн бұрын
@@Ds9Defiant1701B After seeing the match, I concur with @churchulainn9275's assessment. The Defiant Class is not a ship of the line but a PT Boat of WW II, where hit and run tactics were the order of the day.
@robertmandl932612 күн бұрын
I take it none of you remember the fight between the Defiant and the Lakota. And while the Defiant would have won it certainly took good hits - and the Lakota was "only" an upgraded Excelsior. Besides, repeatedly cloaking also repeatedly offers clear shots on the unshielded hull. Remember Bashir advising against cloaking in that same fight. Long story short: it is doubtful that the Defiant could win a fight with the Sovereign. Especially when you consider that starships are usually not controlled like arcade game fighters, among other factors impacting the outcome of a fight.
@chuchulainn927512 күн бұрын
@@robertmandl9326 Not disagreeing with you on the history but I'm afraid that information is irrelevant. My observations are purely from the gameplay shown here which may or may not follow the rules we expect.
@robertmandl932612 күн бұрын
@@chuchulainn9275 True. And a solid tactic too, considering game mechanics. The only flaw is the quite immediate reaction of AI ships once one deckoaks. But it still might work.
@miles237813 күн бұрын
How come no "both sides"?
@Ds9Defiant1701B12 күн бұрын
what do you mean?
@miles237812 күн бұрын
@@Ds9Defiant1701B sorry some of the other bridge commander players will show both sides of a fight im tired.
@mrichar914 күн бұрын
They went easy on you. But good show!
@Mikerille14 күн бұрын
To be fair, we know in ds9 it’s stated 4 of the phaser cannons of the defiant firing is equal to 2 on a bird of prey. The reman warbird has 57 heavy cannons they can fire simultaneously. It has the equivalent of 28.5 birds of prey firing at you at once and constantly, or 114 defiants. The defiant never stood a chance even remotely.
@Ds9Defiant1701B14 күн бұрын
the reman warbird is heavily armed and good against bigger ship but small ships like the defiant can maneuver a lot more than the bigger ships
@Mikerille14 күн бұрын
@@Ds9Defiant1701B to be honest with its perfected cloak, I don’t think that matters much, it also has superior targeting sensors, and there is realistically no facing area where the defiant could flank for an advantage, every side would just be like many defiants shooting, with the accuracy to precisely hit minuscule subsystems on the equally fast valdore, or even faster sovereign, which with its much more powerful warp engine, should actually be nearly as nimble, just with a larger frame
@jpal022714 күн бұрын
@@Mikerille i always hated the 'perfected cloak' on it. makes so little sense they were fighting in a nebula, there should have been a wake to follow having shields while cloaked should be leaving some energy signature you would think, but maybe the cloaking shield is outside the normal shield? or anytime the cloaked ship fires, it gives away its position and should be easy for a computer to phaser that location instantly.
@stratfordbaby15 күн бұрын
I'm shocked you survived. It was snatching life from the jaws of death several times.
@Ds9Defiant1701B15 күн бұрын
i was surprised too
@jaydaytoday354815 күн бұрын
I'm struggling to understand this High lvl strategy here. Get up in, larger and stronger, opponents face and tank his hits and hope your exploding ship takes him out?
@02ujtb0062615 күн бұрын
Raising the power levels to closer to 100% helps. The bar is just below the torpedo single/dual toggle button.
@SuperThunder15 күн бұрын
Hello ! , Welcome My Friend ! , How Are You? Going Good ? :))
@Ds9Defiant1701B15 күн бұрын
works well on all exept phasers on some ships
@02ujtb0062615 күн бұрын
@@Ds9Defiant1701B sometimes it does cause phaser inaccuracy in the newer mods. That wasn't a problem when I was playing this game in the mid aughts. I wonder why they made it that way.
@Ds9Defiant1701B15 күн бұрын
@@02ujtb00626 either that or you shoot less cannons/quantum torps
Пікірлер
Great fight! I love that Sovereign model.
You did a solid job. But realistically a Galaxy class should defeat an Intrepid class in a straight 1v1. Galaxy class ships just pack a huge punch.
The only way you were winning that fight was with those specialized Torpedos. Good as the Sovereign is, the Odyssey class is just on another level.
Is this the Kobiyashi Maru mod or something else?
wow that looks horrible...
what do you mean?
The game's 22 years old, cut it some slack
Good job, Worf!
Q'apla
Does this count as "roadkill" ?
Not even a close battle
this game looks super fun...
Its the best star trek ship fight game
@@Ds9Defiant1701B how do I get it?
@@Ds9Defiant1701BI preferred Klingon Academy, but it’s very dated now.
JJ Enterprise destroyed by Ent-A nacelle. Huh, what a plan! It worked! 🤣
yeah honestly didn't plan this but instead of redoing the fight i just went ah fuck it lmao
Enterprise used Sideswipe, It was super effective!
Nacelle damaged but hey at least enemy ship is gone right?
@@Ds9Defiant1701B I know a Ferengi that can fix it for three fiddy bars of latinum
A more Valiant effort put forward than the Valiant
I see what you did here tho. you can also check for the rematch
Have you ever tried out the "Bridge Commander Remastered" Mod pack? I'm curious what you think of the ships and battles.
@@TheBigExclusive yeah since i have a 2k monitor it doesn't load well on my pc
@@Ds9Defiant1701Byeah, it also doesn't work on mine either for that same reason lol.
Warp engines have been destroyed....(me thinking calling for help from the Enterprise-D is a must right now)😂
@@RegBeta yeah the ship was in pretty bad shape
@Ds9Defiant1701B I'm surprised it survived a fight against an Romulan Warbird. A Galaxy Class like the Enterprise-D would be sweating bullets thinking about going toe to toe with one.
@@RegBeta i was surprised too
Warp engines do still look fine IMO 😂
Guy flies a starship like he's never driven a car or played a flight simulator.
those ships aren't the easiest to fly in this game tho
@@Ds9Defiant1701B Fly towards your opponent at maximum impulse. Hit the brakes and hang right underneath the other ship. Stay there and shoot. Then we don't need two ships flying around since the weapons are insta-hit or tracking anyway. The idea is less maneuvering and more getting out of the sight lines of the weapons.
Shenanigans. LOL.
Eject-o nacelles-o cuz!
lmao i see what you did here
Much better.
Despite all that firepower the Sovreign Class has no way to detect clocked ships.
yep its kinda funny tho
Gah, your tactics are horrible, stay up front right where many of its weapons are. Taking too many hits instead of at least staying back a bit and trying to avoid some weapons plus it looks like it was a little weapons light on the bottom side yet you stayed in front up close taking hits. Fine weak points stick to one area, haul back a bit and spam those quantums, this was winnable.
this is why i released a rematch
The peson who put this together is an idiot. You dont go head to head. You also rotate your ship so the bottom shields get pounded and the top get to recover. You also run away when shit aint working. Head to head is stupid work like a gorilla This is not swords duel this is survaval. Get more ships, find an astroid field, or like use tractor beam and rip other guys ship into peaces.
Someone really needs to mod the battleship. Not enough weapons, they fire too slow and the shields and armor should be better. Remember, this is supposed to be 3x the power of a War Galaxy.
I thought Nog said in the episode it was 3x the size of a Galaxy
@@skylerroxasmidoriyatardisp2882 Twice the size of the Galaxy Class and three times as powerful. And as the Lakota is lesser than a Galaxy, at least an upgraded one, this should be an even greater mismatch.
Nice tactic, staying in the Jem'Hadar battleship's blind spot.
Rubbish
This was a winnable battle. Try again, only this time stay out of the Dominion Battleships forward arcs.
going to try a rematch then
To this day it remains a tragedy what they did to an otherwise great Galaxy class model in KM. It's like they took a belt sander to the bridge and nacelles.
I like this refit Ambassador. If starfleet kept them refitted and updated rather than relegating them to secondary roles they would have been beasts in the Dominion war.
yep they would have been beasts indeed but i think since it was an Ambassador class it was mainly for exploration and diplomatics missions
@@Ds9Defiant1701B well if they used the Miranda class....just sayin lol. On a serious note though the Galaxy class's were mostly diplomatic and explorative too, but with some modifications it was an effective battleship. They should have done the same for thr Ambassador's. I know there is a real world reason they didn't use them, so maybe the in-uni reason is that they had been sidelined for so long the refitting process would have been too intense during war time.
@@02ujtb00626yeah those Dominion Galaxy refits were SCARY like put down a galor in a few shots scary
In lore I don't think there were that many
@@UTSareth probably not now that you mention it. Their production line wasn't very long before the Galaxy class was being designed then launched in the late 2350's. And during the "lost era" Excelsior's were abundant. I heard a theory that the Ambassador class was plagued with technical issues. The class was too ambitious for the duotronic circuitry it was installed with so it didn't perform much better than existing Excelsior's. A massive refit of the new isolinear circuitry was mandated but it was a process, and shortly thereafter the Galaxy class was launched specifically designed with isolinear circuitry. So basically the Ambassador class was outshined by both her predecessor and successor.
Uhhh...why were those torps bypassing the shields?
honestly idk
Maybe Geordi was used as a spy again 😂
Can we get a remaster of this game? Or a proper sequel?
i wish
OK retrobadger needs to see this video and try it
Would've made more sense to go after the Bird that was actively firing at you and much closer.
skill issue
Brave
This is the original Galaxy class right? I think the Dominion War refit Galaxy class would do much better.
probably it would help yeah
Great Bird of the Galaxy, I've seen the Scimitar take out everything people could throw at it. To see the Defiant kick it's aft is something I didn't expect to see.
Your nacelles lasted 2 seconds exactly hahhaa 😅😅
*Fantastic! Have a Great Weekend!* ⭐😃👍
I think the battle is potentially accurate but it would depend on tactics , the Lakota in the Dominion war era was the most advanced excelsior with late 24th century tech, phasers and quantum Torpedoes. The defiant has agility but the Lakota has mass and firepower.
Hmmm...it would be interesting if you tried this same battle, but limit yourself to half speed. Since that's the same handicap the Enterprise E had to do in the movie. The Briar Patch was messing with their engines. It was like trying to swim through watery sand. Slow and hard to do.
Very few players utilise the tractor beam in this game. Especially useful for larger starships against smaller targets.
yeah i know i had a good reason to keep it there so i did tho
There was a time I destroyed an ambassador in a shuttle 😂
Should be two defiants vs the sov. The Defiant is a tough little ship, but the Enterprise is a monster of a ship.
i'll try that soon thanks for the idea
It'd take a lot more than two Defiants to kill a Sovereign - I'm thinking no less than five, and probably closer to eight or ten. Defiant is capable and has decent weapons, but it's a ship _literally_ designed and built to hunt in _wolf packs._
@@IceGavel iirc, the defiant was meant to be deployed in 3 ship wings, according to the DS9 Technical manual.
@@61089loki Or, in other words, a wolf pack, yes.
The AI is horrible in this game. Cloaking while your holding still right in front of the enemy LOL
You're taking a lot of unnecessary hits. The problem is you are fighting like a ship of the line. Think of the Defiant as more of a cloaked fighter. Cloak, get close, unload the disruptors, run away, cloak again. Same with torpeoes. Cloak, unload as many torpedoes as you can, then cloak again before you get targeted.
yeah i'll try to do a rematch with this idea
@@Ds9Defiant1701B After seeing the match, I concur with @churchulainn9275's assessment. The Defiant Class is not a ship of the line but a PT Boat of WW II, where hit and run tactics were the order of the day.
I take it none of you remember the fight between the Defiant and the Lakota. And while the Defiant would have won it certainly took good hits - and the Lakota was "only" an upgraded Excelsior. Besides, repeatedly cloaking also repeatedly offers clear shots on the unshielded hull. Remember Bashir advising against cloaking in that same fight. Long story short: it is doubtful that the Defiant could win a fight with the Sovereign. Especially when you consider that starships are usually not controlled like arcade game fighters, among other factors impacting the outcome of a fight.
@@robertmandl9326 Not disagreeing with you on the history but I'm afraid that information is irrelevant. My observations are purely from the gameplay shown here which may or may not follow the rules we expect.
@@chuchulainn9275 True. And a solid tactic too, considering game mechanics. The only flaw is the quite immediate reaction of AI ships once one deckoaks. But it still might work.
How come no "both sides"?
what do you mean?
@@Ds9Defiant1701B sorry some of the other bridge commander players will show both sides of a fight im tired.
They went easy on you. But good show!
To be fair, we know in ds9 it’s stated 4 of the phaser cannons of the defiant firing is equal to 2 on a bird of prey. The reman warbird has 57 heavy cannons they can fire simultaneously. It has the equivalent of 28.5 birds of prey firing at you at once and constantly, or 114 defiants. The defiant never stood a chance even remotely.
the reman warbird is heavily armed and good against bigger ship but small ships like the defiant can maneuver a lot more than the bigger ships
@@Ds9Defiant1701B to be honest with its perfected cloak, I don’t think that matters much, it also has superior targeting sensors, and there is realistically no facing area where the defiant could flank for an advantage, every side would just be like many defiants shooting, with the accuracy to precisely hit minuscule subsystems on the equally fast valdore, or even faster sovereign, which with its much more powerful warp engine, should actually be nearly as nimble, just with a larger frame
@@Mikerille i always hated the 'perfected cloak' on it. makes so little sense they were fighting in a nebula, there should have been a wake to follow having shields while cloaked should be leaving some energy signature you would think, but maybe the cloaking shield is outside the normal shield? or anytime the cloaked ship fires, it gives away its position and should be easy for a computer to phaser that location instantly.
I'm shocked you survived. It was snatching life from the jaws of death several times.
i was surprised too
I'm struggling to understand this High lvl strategy here. Get up in, larger and stronger, opponents face and tank his hits and hope your exploding ship takes him out?
Raising the power levels to closer to 100% helps. The bar is just below the torpedo single/dual toggle button.
Hello ! , Welcome My Friend ! , How Are You? Going Good ? :))
works well on all exept phasers on some ships
@@Ds9Defiant1701B sometimes it does cause phaser inaccuracy in the newer mods. That wasn't a problem when I was playing this game in the mid aughts. I wonder why they made it that way.
@@02ujtb00626 either that or you shoot less cannons/quantum torps