Baroque violinist here 🙋‍♂️ holding the bow higher is a trade off. You're gaining control and sacrificing power. I'll often change depending on the piece I'm playing and the bow I'm using. I've started doing that on modern bows too. This is something that 19th century violinists wrote about by the way

@konstantin.v

11 ай бұрын

What control? 🧐

@rfv618

10 ай бұрын

​@@konstantin.v baroque playing is more about nuance and variety of articulation, imitating different spoken consonants, and everything between legato and stacatto that doesn't neatly classify as either. Some bow designs are really light give you that already, so you want the maximum weight from your arm, others are more tip heavy and need the extra control from a higher hold. The fluting on your bow might influence where you hold it to. It's really personal preference of the player with each particular bow in the end.

@konstantin.v

10 ай бұрын

@@rfv618 , I always thought of baroque players as those who drive steam engines in the 21-th century 😊

@rfv618

10 ай бұрын

@@konstantin.v you can still catch steam trains for leisure. A commuter train might be more efficient in getting you from A to B but it's a hell of a lot less interesting. A better analogy would be vintage vs modern sport cars

@konstantin.v

10 ай бұрын

@@rfv618 , I was going for something older and less functional than vintage cars compared to modern. But cars example works, too 😊

"Any baroque musician will tell you this" Yeah, because they're insane😂

@JSB2500

11 ай бұрын

Insanely good 😊.

@mbradley5683

11 ай бұрын

😅😅 Lmao

@Ceenth

10 ай бұрын

😂😂😂

@Hero_-jd2mk

10 ай бұрын

I actually found, that after playing a while with a baroque bow, my bow technique in the modern bow also became better.

@Corrietheviolinist

3 ай бұрын

😂😂 yess!! The most insane and have the most musical rules. Sorry I’m a rule breaker

Baroque players always felt like some sort of cult to me 😊

@aidanmays7825

Ай бұрын

They say the same about you

@konstantin.v

Ай бұрын

@@aidanmays7825 , a cult that is observed by the majority gets to be called "religion" 😊

@aidanmays7825

Ай бұрын

@@konstantin.v Your view is a good number of decades out of date, man. Early music is packing concert halls all over the world, but especially so in Europe. Curious about where you're from

@konstantin.v

Ай бұрын

@@aidanmays7825 , reverse bow making industry must be booming 🤭

@aidanmays7825

Ай бұрын

@@konstantin.v yeah I'm in conservatory and a large portion of the players here have a baroque bow in their arsenal. Many study baroque performance as a secondary study because of how it effects their playing as a whole. Like I said, this is an outdated view based on dogma, not reality

YESSSSSS I was doing this intuitively and felt shame for my ancestors and classical teachers of the past but this makes me feel vindicated. Thank you!

absolutely agreed. This bow hold allows rotation of the stick on the thumb and a lot more flexibility and less tension

Ah ha - the most important violin playing secret of all! 😃 I made this change as a result of applying physics and maths. Unhappy with my own bow hold (particularly at the start of each session and when being accompanied), I looked at the forces and moments (rotation tendencies) involved, and decided that the arm weight must be applied to the middle finger opposite the thumb, and that the other fingers must only resist rotation of the bow (with the index finger resisting clockwise rotation). To achieve this easily, I moved my thumb and middle finger to the middle of the thumb grip. That served multiple purposes, but crucially it kept my index finger from actively applying force to the bow, and instead only resisting force from the bow. This completely solves the problem of graunching when playing near the frog (which many people think is because the frog is heavy - wrong!). My playing was instantly transformed for the better. I've literally not had a single bad session since. The violin now always plays well from the moment I pick it up, I can easily get a consistent sound from frog to tip, I have no fear of starting a note right at the frog, string changes are smoother, multi-stops are something to look forward to, and best of all I no longer fear performing to others now that my bowing is reliable. And I've only been playing 17 months. I switched at 12 months. Incidentally, on one of my bows the thumb grip is the perfect thickness for me. On my other ones it is too thin. In other words, once you start placing your thumb and middle fingers on the thumb grip (where they belong 😄), the thickness of the thumb grip starts to matter. After I worked all this out, I looked around for confirmation. I found a well known luthier (near NYC IIRC) who is confounded by why violinists DON'T do this. I can find you the link if you want. I also saw that Perlman does this. In one video at least, his bow has NO gap between the grip and the frog, and his grip, which is pale in colour, is discoloured in a way that shows clearly that he places his thumb on it. I'm sure it's not necessary to do this. Vengerov solves the graunching problem by lifting his index finger when playing near the frog. However, I think it makes it easier to play well and reliably, and I 100% wish I had done it from the very start. Yet the internet currently largely insists that "It's called the thumb grip because you put your thumb NEXT to it" 🙄.

@tullochgorum6323

11 ай бұрын

I've been trying to analyse Nathan Milstein's bow arm, and I'm pretty sure he has his thumb on the thumb grip as well. His hand is farther down the bow than you can explain any other way, unless I'm missing something?

@chukwumaonyibor4644

10 ай бұрын

The link please. 🙏 The one you spoke about

@JSB2500

10 ай бұрын

@@chukwumaonyibor4644 Hi! "Put thumb on the grip not the gap" Luthier: David Mitchie Violins Location: Philadelphia Video: kzread.info/dash/bejne/mHmXyKOjZbbQktY.html From: 10:12 To: 12:28 The only reasons he gives are: • It eliminates wear on the stick. • The playing situation doesn't change as the hair stretches and the gap expands. I think these are valid reasons BUT I think there is a much more important reason: To apply arm weight to the stick via the middle finger that's opposite the thumb so that the arm weight doesn't cause a moment (turning force) on the stick, and hence gives a constant sound from frog to tip. The grip enables this nicely. As I mentioned before, the thickness of the leather matters. Too thin and it doesn't work: some arm weight goes onto your index finger, which tends to cause graunching near the frog. Too thick and it feels like it's bending your middle finger backwards too much.

@JSB2500

10 ай бұрын

​@@chukwumaonyibor4644 Here's the Perlman one: kzread.info/dash/bejne/fGuKppZspK24k7A.html Starting at 01:00. Here we can see that there is no gap on his bow. My point is that it isn't the gap that matters, but the thickness of the grip which results in all the allied force going on only the middle finger (and rotation resisting force comes back onto the index finger).

@JSB2500

10 ай бұрын

@@chukwumaonyibor4644 I've set the start times in the URLs but they are not working on my phone. You might have to set the start points yourself. I've given the start time.

Looove this. I started experimenting with baroque bows to help my understanding of bach but it revolutionized my playing and taught me so much about the bow. I love to have my students play Minuet 1 while holding the bow at the balance point. Always helps their bow control.

When a child lacks the ability to hold the bow properly we move it forward to the balance point and have them hold it here to retrain their hand. When they gain the proper bow hold we move it back to the natural position with the thumb in the notch.

Chaconne is my favorite piece of music in any genre.

What a relief🎉 My thumb always moves away from the frog when I play, and I have been busy moving it back to the frog. Now I don't have to anymore!

i have a bad habit of letting my thumb slight up to the black leather bit. it just feels so much easier to control. good to know that it isnt all that awful 🤷‍♂️

Good point Daniel concerning the chords, personally I use a higher placement when I play Bach - on a modern bow of course - and in general, it's more comfortable since the weight is not that intense, but on the other hand, that slight gripping of the thumb on the frog gives a more secure feeling on some technics, especially when the bow lifts off the strings...

Playing Bach is much easier with baroque bow by the way.

Thank you!!!! I'm gradually realizing that allowing my body to fall into specific holds, habits, rules, and positions is a horrible idea for me, personally. I tend to carry a ton of anxiety in my neck, shoulders, arms, and fingers. If I don't remain loose, fluid, and ideally moving, those parts lock up entirely and cause soreness or even injury. Really, really appreciate this.

I hold it this way as well. It feels much more natural. I don’t know why you wouldn’t use the thumb grip as intended

Totally agree, my teachers told me that too

I’ve been doing this unconsciously and I thought I’m wrong. The regular bow hold hurts my hand and make the sound scratchy. I have weak hands and the high hand helps me better while playing

@reetmalviya1585

9 ай бұрын

Same me too, when I play in that position it sounds like something screeching. However, when I play with my fingers a bit upwards, it's better

Whoa. I will try this.

This is great advice, as someone who's thumb was always touching the frog, this " experiment " really revolutionised my sound. I feel I can project more sound and achieve more flexibility when the thumb doesn't touch the frog. Most of the time we subscribe to some orthodox rules of how the violin must be played as if it was some exact science but in reality different bodies have different responses for the same result .

I am trying to learn to “break the rules” and find my personal style/connect with the instrument better/be more natural, and this is one thing I hadn’t considered. My chords suck right now; definitely going to try this.

Thank you!

I just tried this, and the sound was soo much better and powerful.

Going to experiment with it ! Thanks. ❤

I switch bowholds depending on the piece I'm playing. If I'm playing Bach or a well-lnowm baroque composer, I'd most likely use a baroque bowhold. That also goes for quick, lively music or pieces that would sound good with rapid alterations of sound. For passages that require smoother and more powerful bowing, I'd use a modern bowhold for that. In general, it depends on whether you want to play your piece, based on your own taste. Baroque is more on control and adding texture with quick bowspeed changes, while modern has a smoother output and a sound that stays consistent.

Thanks. Finally someone have said this truth!

I will try!

Thank you Daniel for this testimony ! I'm a beginner, but I naturally moved my hand up to the top of the bow. The more I study the violin, the more I feel like I'm moving towards the baroque style. ^^

Aprendí contigo esta forma de sujetar el arco en un video anterior y para mí ha significado un progreso enorme! Mil gracias profesor!👏👏👏👏👏💜🎶💜🎻

@Tadeo-ud7ty

Ай бұрын

Cómo se llama el profe? 🙏

I believe this is 100% correct. I was puzzled by top (I mean really world class artists) who placed their thumb on the leather since placing the thumb with a double contact has been the ‘norm’ for so long. When I changed it I immediately found greater flexibility in my bowing and could make small changes in my bow hold to achieve a wider variety of colors in my sound.

It made my play smooth better but can't play chords good with this bow holding. May you make a video for play chords with this bow hold please?

Thank you for sharing this! I am trained to put my thumb in front of the frog in the throat and pointing up against the pad. I will try your way. I notice Hilary Hahn holds the bow further away from the frog but not too much. See her play J.S. Bach Partita for violin and play Ave Maria. Same bow hold.

Huh, might have to try this out and experiment

Baroque musicians WILL definitely tell you this

Fiddle players had been doing this forever

I naturally hold it slightly above the frog cos it just feels uncomfortable and painful after some time

i used to put my thumb in between the stick and frog and than one day I looked at my friend’s bow hold (he has been playing for around 5 years i believe) he puts his thumb under the frog and i tried it and now i cant go back to how i used to hold it 😭😭

Most Indian violinists hold the bow in the baroque way…. It is very easy and comfortable that way as our style demands the use of heavy oscillating movements

tell that to heifetz

This advice would only work if you are playing a baroque piece or using a baroque bow, the shape of the bow is very different than current day ones, that is because their repertoires are not requiring sophisticated techniques and played mostly between the lower positions. But later works contain a longer phrasing and also ask for a higher challenge of the technique, which is why the gap on the bow is helpful to place the thumb

Cool story bro. Now play full dotted quarter notes!

🤔 I'll try it

I always take the bow higher ,it sounds better.

El Xocas ?

What piece is he playing at the beginning?

@violincatch

10 ай бұрын

Chaconne by Bach.

Thank you. It’s funny beginners are taught to do this but to adopt the “real” bow hold later. The older I get, the more I realize the idea of there being a “correct” way to play is not a fact so set in stone.

Huh. I see.

Well..Gypsies do the same 🎉

Holding a bow is not natural

Fiddlers do this too

Perfect loop....

Honey I don't know wut u call a good bow hold but that was not it.

biggest violin ever or tiny man

Do not listen! This is idiocy! More forces means more control, not rigidity. Your explanation is suboptimal, sorry

This is bullshit. Dont do this. It might be "easier" but try playing Bartok or Mozzart like that, you will Hurt yourself and completely missinterprete the music. So dont do this... like ever...

@SchemingGoldberg

Ай бұрын

The modern Tourte bow was invented AFTER Mozart. Mozart wrote his music with the intention to be played with the old baroque style bows, where the fingers are placed above the frog.

This was the video that caused me to stop following this guy. Shame to see it here. It's not that he uses a different technique (heck, Mark O'Connor places his thumb on the bottom of the frog), it's his insistence that this is better and that all players should change how they play as if he found some magical holy grail or something. He went on in the comments about how we're just wrong for not doing it his way. The arrogance of this man to think he knows better than all the famous violinists out there is just astounding.

@SchemingGoldberg

Ай бұрын

You clearly watched a very different video, since he didn't do any of that in this video.

@JohnThomWebb

Ай бұрын

@@SchemingGoldberg He posted it to social media. I'm referring to when he posted it to Instagram. I guess I could have specified that. Sorry.

Thank you!