Matt gives the best advice

As a Mormon, I would just like to say that what those parents did was absolutely unacceptable and was in no way, shape or form, how the church teaches people to act when this type of thing happens. We are taught to have a Christlike love for them. That means telling them they're appreciated and loved for who they are, and if that means they don't go o church, you let them not go to church. "We are all...free to choose", said in 2Nephi chapter 2 verse 27 in the Book of Mormon. Let them do what they will. We all have our freedom to choose. And we will love everyone no matter what they do. That's Christlike love. Am I perfect? Do I always love everyone as Christ would? No. Am I working on it? Yes! And that's all that matters for me. I'm sorry your parents were such dicks about it, I really am.

My mom is a big Catholic and I hate religion with a passion, but I have to go to church till I move out. Every fucking Sunday it's "gay marriage isn't real marriage" and "abortion is bad" and I feel like crying when they say stupid shit like that. I just stare at wall as we endless stand it kneel, stand sit kneel and write fan fiction in my head. It's hell, but I have to deal with it.

@NFinfo

9 жыл бұрын

namegirl12 haha I respect the fact you use the time of not listening to hateful bile and instead write fanfiction in your head. That is very win win for you haha. Ignore crap and ship your favourite characters in a complicated plot centred around a forbidden love... or something similar.

@BewareTheLilyOfTheValley

9 жыл бұрын

Heh-heh, Will as your picture, eh? :)

@namegirl12

9 жыл бұрын

Fluffymiyster Yup. I love him lol

I didn't have a great relationship with religion growing up, but now I value my church community like a second family. It probably helps that I go to an incredibly progressive church in a very progressive city, since I am both a member and supporter of the LGBTQ community. Liberman, I think your advice is on point. Sometimes you gotta stick it out in order to have greater freedom later. I'm a new subscriber, but I've enjoyed all your videos so far! :)

I like this advice. It's practical and not idealistic. It's fresh when there are so many people who would just say "FUCK IT DO WHAT YOU WANT" without any other thought.

What a mature, thought-out response, Lieberman. A+.

I agree 100%. You have to weigh the pros and cons. Lets face it, dealing with a few judge mental jerks once a week, and having your parents punish you isn't worth it.

Grew up in a Catholic family, but was fortunate enough to have amazing parents that asked my brother and I if we still wanted to go to church or not by the time I was 14. We both said no and that "we'd rather spend Sundays with family and friends instead of listening to people complain about the modern world". (My words) My mother asked me once during a difficult time in her second marriage if I (17) believed in God and without hesitation answered: "what kind of God allows my mother to go through so much pain, seemingly alone? What GOD decided that I should watch her suffer such childish ignorance from her 2nd husband?? All I've ever learned from religion is to believe one thing and not ask questions when it was YOU who told me to ALWAYS ask questions until I understood the problem. So I see the problem being GOD from all the questions I've asked." My mom is one of my best friends. I feel like that moment helped her and I a lot.

This what happened to my friend and it work out great for him. and less of his family hated him after than he thought.

This is the first time I've ever seen your videos... definitely earned a subscription. you're awesome Matt, loved the heart to heart :)

Matt, I love all of your videos but this might be my favourite because it's exactly the advice I needed from you right now as I am going through the exact same situation with my parents. Thank you so so much for producing this content and I hope you know how much of a positive influence you are on not just me, but all of the Leiberfriends here.

The way my dad always told me that if I didn't want to go to church one week that's fine he said "that if I'm not happy there than there's no point to going"

Wow, im literally a Leab lol

libermanyou always give great advice and im glad your comunity is growing

As an Ex-Mormon, who became an apostate by the age of sixteen, I can't disagree with your advice more. To hell with who you are, damned be your own beliefs, the majority rules in that you can never be who you are. This isn't about survival, it's about persecution of those who wish to be who they are and show what they believe. So, this friend ought to not resist what they want for him, but they are right in their place to resist him growing mentally? How is this supposed to help anyone struggling with this problem. As soon as I came out as an Agnostic-Atheist, I couldn't count the number of times I was told to enjoy outer darkness, that I deserve to be in hell, I'm worse than Hitler and the likes. And you've just told this person that he's better being among these judgemental, despicable people? When you're in the church, depending on the age, you have the deacons at the age of twelve, who pass the sacrament, at fourteen you have the teachers who bless and make the sacrament and at sixteen you have the priests, who can now baptise people. At eighteen, you're expect to spend your own money to go on a mission, and basically beg for food from people in the area you've been placed in. To come out at an age where the most responsibility is placed in your hands and expected of you, is simply nonsensical advice to give. The ward will loath you, the stake will despise you and the family will now have the shame of someone who willingly disgraced and murred their obedience to their god. So, should this person come out as an Atheist? Aye, but don't do it without a reason, be able to speak in regards to what caused it, why he came to such a conclusion, read the bible, the book of mormon, gain an understand of the awful things written in each of these books, learn the theology, so you won't be trapped by guilt riders trying to scare you back into line. But then, if we go by your advice, should we expect love and understanding from your family? No, judging by your answer.

@Jarethenator

9 жыл бұрын

Lothian Tam An impassioned point, but not a practical one...

@LothianTam

9 жыл бұрын

If we're to consider practicality mindlessly giving up who you are, then I'll be damned if I'm ever even considered that.

@Jarethenator

9 жыл бұрын

Lothian Tam That's nice, but that's not the advice that was given, although I would not s say it is perfect advice. And that's a very easy stance to make when not actually, actively being a person who deals with it, and I do mean specifically. Your family and experience is different than mine, is different than his, is different than hers--so on and so forth. It is not necessarily practical to rebel in the way that you have/suggest. Or, more accurately, it's not necessarily effective. I would not pretend to know the situation of this video, but for most families only being "insubordinate" would not work. It requires conversation and gradual change, that sometimes may never come, but by then one can leave the situation. In the mean time, life remains a messy and complicated thing and things aren't that easy...

@LothianTam

9 жыл бұрын

Okay, as someone who clearly doesn't understand what I wrote in regards to the coming of age within the Mormon church, allow me to go a little further. When you go on this mission, it's often overseas, and the normal amount of time is two years, though it can be more. Now, if he's to pretend to be part of the church, depending on how old he is now, what kind of response do you imagine he'll receive when he comes out as a Non-believer at this pinnacle age to his faith and parents? Good? Or bad? Your point in regards to families being different, not quite so. I had the exact same problems, had the exact same threats and the likes, but apparently having a back bone, avoiding the trouble that'll certainly be greater than what I experienced, is the right way to go about things.

@Jarethenator

9 жыл бұрын

Lothian Tam Yeah, don't talk to me like that here, Lothian. If you pay attention to the video it is clear that it is not a matter of how they will react when he or she reveals their non-belief. They have already done so multiple times. We already know how their family responds. What you are saying is not the most relevant thing. The most relevant thing is talking about what comes after that and how to best deal with those consequences. I know this sounds rude, but your life is not entirely applicable to others. You do not serve as the basis of comparison. Their situation is different than yours and they may not be able to do as you do. You should not talk about them in that situation as though they are cowardly if they take the video's advice. That kind of talk is no better than the kind of talk we'd be both against from their parents. Of all the channels on KZread, I do not want to propagate any KZread comment section arguments here. We can disagree, but I'm not going to get into a further spat with you here. I don't 100% disagree with you, but I don't agree with you. I've made myself clear and this is the end of it.

I love atheism.

Hey, I went though the same thing. If you want to talk hit me up, okay? I grew up in Utah, all of my family is super LDS (Dad bishop, mom relief prez, etc.) It gets better when you get older I promise. Like I said if you need to talk and advice hit me up. Would love to get to know someone in the same position I was. Good luck!!

Great advice!

If you can be patient and you want to save their life from their delusion : Deconvert them. It will be hard , and for some people night-impossible , but you can go a great deal at least to make them less extremist. Now the how to guide (not perfect , refine it yourself). 1) Most important rule : Do *not* be confrontational , don't shove things in their faces , don't call them hatefull / bigots etcetra even in an indirect way , you don't want to do that because if you do you will get labelled as a "bad" person and therefore your subsequent arguments will be taken less seriously. 2)Use questions as a weapon , undermine their arguments and question over and over their assumptions. Do not make claims , ask things , people can refuse a claim way more easily than dodging a question. Every stupid argument starts from a fallacious premise but it's otherwise correct. The questions *must be innocent* , try not to show your plan in your actions. Follow three different arguments or more at the same time so they can't see what your goal is untill you've reached it. Think about possible answers before hand and be ready (but not to eager) to rebuke them 3)Let them minor victories , give up some points. Go like "yeah you are probably right" on something minor , you must be someone that "might go back into the right path" , they are arleadly delusional , delude them they can solve your doubths. 4)Don't deny their assumptions or premises but make an example in which said premise is absurd and ask if it apllyes in that context / if they say it doesn't ask why . With time this will undermine their belief in such assumption and either they will make ad-hoc exceptions or go to a more general (and less extreme) one. 5) Don't do it too often , after church would be the best : church is where belief is reinforced (that's why it's weekly , less often and people would question things , church is made to repeat to them *this is right , all other is wrong*) , if you put doubt right after their belief is reinforced the reinforcment is less effective. 6) Try not to argue with the "high powers" of the community , the priests and who profits from the religion usually don't believe (some do) in the religion themselves so they might see what you want to do , keep this in-family the more you can Be their own person Satan :D Knowledge is power. This thing might take your *years* if you're lucky. PS: If it doesn't work with your parents try to help the teenagers , or who is not yet knotted into the delusion , be someone's else mentor : you can do good for them.

Hey I went through a similar thing, my family would say it's the only "true family time" we spend together. So I would say, ok if we go to church then let's watch a movie right after, or go get ice cream or such. Make something you do as a family, or even by yourself, at a similar time on Sunday so you can look forward to it and know you're getting some kind of immediate reward or satisfaction if you can't find during church. If at some point you really cannot handle going to church, sit down and have a serious conversation with them and say what you need to in a respectful manner so they understand how you feel. You wrote to a stranger on the internet for advice for goodness sake!! And if they do threaten to take away your things, sometimes you have to tough it out. You have to find which is more important, not going to church or not having your things. You didn't say how old you are so it would be different if you're younger then ~16, but at some point they will have to give or they'll realize they can't control every aspect of your life. Just as I said before, find something you can do as a family instead, since the main reason a lot of families go to church together is just to be together. Hope this helped!

@BewareTheLilyOfTheValley

9 жыл бұрын

Considering you can't even talk during church, I wouldn't consider that very good family time. It's like eating dinner together but everyone is watching TV or looking at their phone. Hm, maybe not exactly like that, but you're not interacting with each other either way.

Just to add to Matt's advice, Lieberfriend: Don't expect your parents to willingly accept your choices once you turn 18. Plan to be self sufficient because there is a chance that any help you receive from your parents might come with an expectation that you will behave a certain way, be that financial or otherwise.

My immediate family has never been religious. We're all agnostic really, so I've only been to church a hand ful of times when I was a little kid with grandparents and such (and most of those small handfuls of times were funerals so they don't count on the whole "going to church" thing). I think my parents, had they been religious, would be able to work with me on a no church solution. I get to thinking that because it worked out well for my mom and my dad in their respective families when they didn't want to go to church. That being said, not everyone is like my relatives. Some folks are just assholes or stubborn and sometimes one has to just bid their time for practical purposes. It's an unfortunate realty.

I belonged to that religion before I came to my senses. And just not supporting it mentally helps tons, you may have to go physically but you don't have to be there mentally.

Ah too bad I won't be able to join the hangout this weekend TT_TT

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I had a similar problem growing up, though I was not part of the Church of Jesus christ and Latter Day Saints (I was raised associating with a methodist church). Matt is right in that you really can't do much about actually going to church, but it's for such a short period of time. And you know what? If they're constantly judging your views, laugh at your parents and their silly church. Churches are glorified social clubs full of clucking hens these days. Your faith and views are your faith and views, and no group of people should have enough time on their hands to judge them in the shallow way I've witnessed. I know many people who have come from the Mormon faith and are highly supportive of the LGBTQ community (several of which joined my old high school's GSA as a way to understand someone else's life, much like I did when my brother came out). Find clubs like that after school or just productive ways to move life forward, and it'll help keep you concentrated on better things than people judging you. It helped me significantly.

@cynthiaclay8365

9 жыл бұрын

Hopper9987 how did you get through having to give talks.....I hate talks because everyone judges me when their not "spiritual" enough and then when our teachers ask me all the questions bc im not paying attention I say I don't know and then they tell my dad who gives me the same lecture about needing the lords love and guidance everyday on the ride home

@Hopper9987

9 жыл бұрын

Poptart Dragon you know, it took me a really long time to feel strong enough to put my foot down on judgemental bullshit from my grandparents and dad. I tried to build a strong community of people who accepted others no matter what (it helps that I was in a tight knit martial arts school as well). I will even admit to having previous closed minded perceptions that changed when I grew up. It's kind of something that comes with time. You learn to not feed into their judgement, and instead remind them that there are millions of different ways one individual can see the world. I'm currently in the midst of helping some of my family see that ISIS and related terrorist groups are not reflections of the Muslim community in the least (I'm 23 mind you). It's tough and sometimes it leads nowhere at first, but stand firm to your beliefs because no one else has any control over them.

@cynthiaclay8365

9 жыл бұрын

Hopper9987 thank you a lot, I always try not to let it get to me and it works most of the time but like you said it comes with time :3

Well... I am a mormon dad and I really hate the way ur folks are dealing with ur belief differences... but I have to agree with Matt...

Matt going on at the end about a stain glass world made me think of the song Fake Plastic Trees by Radiohead. Whoever submitted this email or if anyone's going through a similar thing, probably with religion, please listen to this song. It's amongst my favourites. :)

Matt you look like wally from where is wally

I actually couldn't disagree more. Having gone through a similar situation, my advice would be to talk it through with your parents. I am an atheist, and being honest with my family about this has strengthened my relationship with them. I am not pretending. To be someone I am not to fit in. I am still my parents' son, and my sisters' brother, and having been strong when I was 15, and saying 'no, I'm not going to church' helped show I was developing my own person, and not just conforming to 'survive'. Don't survive, live!

Well i mostly believe in my god i don't consider myself a christian just a believer. But there are moments that the logic or some of the morals or rules,or some of the explanations for some of the catastrophes in this planet, just make me doubt god sometimes and to weaken my faith. I've been going to church since i was born and at times i doubt in god but then there is this fear, in which i ask my, self what if he is there? Well i guess this was an idea planted in my brain since i was a child. MY point is, is that sometimes i wonder... Who in the fuck is actually out there? But then i tell myself, no God is up there and i should repent for doubting...

Just sent you a long ass email, hopefully you get it

@DubsOddyseeOG

9 жыл бұрын

***** Well, glad you said that I send send a couple of the same because I thought it was the wrong email So hes got like three of the same email

@NFinfo

9 жыл бұрын

***** Yeah I dare say that the kid who originally asked this question via email has grown up and had his own kids now in the time it could take haha. Obviously I exaggerate but it is a funny thought. David J

I have to say I couldn't disagree with the answer on this more.... I think you've said before no one should be stuck in a situation that they don't want to be in... I can only see this lieberfriend growing a life long hate and anger towards the religious because they are basically being held hostage physically and mentally. their parents shouldn't be putting god before their childs mental health as well... if their god is forgiving it doesn't matter anyway

@BewareTheLilyOfTheValley

9 жыл бұрын

Ideally, their parents would be understanding and respectful of their child's viewpoints if they present them to their parents respectfully. However, how horrible to threaten someone with taking their modes of communication to others away from them if they don't conform. Not sure if this person had friends within their town or school but if not, the internet might be their only or primary way of "escaping". I know it is for me and yet I'm an adult! Shortly after high school when my family moved states, my mom started having fights with her now ex. It was tiring but I then (and even now) did not have the money to move out. My online friends, writing and mental patience were my escape tactics. I also spent several years dealing with it with no internet and no friends. It's not fun...at all. I'd rather keep my mouth shut and have a shred of an escape with friends online or a distraction, than to open up, lose what might be a crucial link to communication and then have to deal with the ostracism by the family. I don't look at it as such a black and white situation as not being true to yourself; but if the parents are going to be dicks about not being accepting of their child's differing viewpoints, I say go the path of least resistance until you're of an age where they can't threaten you and you can have a sit-down and talk about your own beliefs with them.