​@The Retro Desk just downloaded your code, assembled it and ran on my agon. Before running it, I changed the video to mode 2 on the command line (VDU 22 2 command) so my lcd would properly sync. After that, ran the assembly code. Took 0.68s according on my timer app and fat fingers :) Please repeat the test by setting vdu to mode 2 prior to running the code so we can get more accurate results.

@Torbjorn.Lindgren

11 ай бұрын

Yeah, it's pretty clear it finishes long before the LCD can react and switch to the new graphics mode, while the X16 runs on a CRT which switches basically instantly. It's possibly to get that switching delay way down, but the easiest option (and thus suitable for a quick test like this) is to switch beforehand.

The ‘pregnant pause’ on the Agon is surely just the monitor synching to the changed screen mode. Changing to mode 2 before running the software (or adding a ‘press a key to start’ routine after the mode change, to give the monitor time to catch up) would be a better approach.

@Paul13013

11 ай бұрын

Not only should the benchmark be done due to the monitor syncing, but someone should update the fixed-point math to use the ez80's hardware multiply instructions.

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

@@Paul13013 that's definitely something I want to try working on. I also have a plan to implement 16.8 fixed point for higher resolution plots

@BrotherAlan

11 ай бұрын

@@Paul13013 Does the Agon's BBC BASIC implementation use the eZ80 hardware multiply? If so that would also explain why it is much faster than the X16.

@reinoud6377

6 ай бұрын

Start in mode2 before you run it

@SimonCapewell

3 ай бұрын

Yes, you can see in the basic run that it's plotted the first 5 lines before the monitor switches. In the assembler version, it's finished already!

The EZ80 is actually available in a 50Mhz package, Since the EZ80 executes instructions 3X faster than a stock Z80 this would effectively give us a machine that runs like a 150Mhz Z80. The Agon Light's EZ80 is clocked at about 18Mhz so there's room for improvement.

@mibnsharpals

6 ай бұрын

The point of the argon or X16, which is not compatible with anything, can be debated. In both cases there is a performance behind it. Unfortunately the eZ80 is not 100% compatible, I would have liked to use it as an accelerator for my MZ800 from 1984. Here is the original BBC Tube principle, where I can integrate any processor into the system.

Didn't realize how fast the CPC and BBC basic really were though Assembly tells a much better story - but then again we didn't get them here in the states. X16 is cool, but part of the charm of the 80's systems were their unique form factors - putting it in a generic PC case just kinda dumbs it down for me in some way. Probably the coolest thing about the Spectrum next is the fresh 80's style industrial design which could have come from that time. X16 needs a smaller board and its own unique case; Amazing effort by David to create your own computer. I can't even imagine what all that took to achieve.

@keyboard_g

11 ай бұрын

BBC Basic is awesome. Massive kudos to Sophie Wilson.

@digitaljestin

11 ай бұрын

The X16 has an official case, but it's not in this video. It'll certainly have a unique style, although not exactly an 80s look. Can't wait to get mine!

Thank you for this wonderful video. It was enjoyable and pleasurable.

When I first read about the serial link, I considered it to be an odd implementation choice but even without the eZ80 datasheet it was pretty obvious why it was chosen. The ESP32 can turn (virtually) any of its GPIOs into a serial link. So I expected that the eZ80 had a similar feature built into it. Sure enough it does. This simplifies the glue logic between the two units without using a CPLD or FPGA. Thinking about rebuilding this. You could probably use a 65816 and the ESP32 to create a system which communicates via low latency DMA.

Excellent - and fair - comparison. It would be very easy to cheat by focusing on the relative strengths of the machine, but this explains well how the two machines differ.

Really enjoyed watching that thanks for sharing great video interesting

An old 2GB micro SD card with RISC-OS installed on it is my ideal retro computer experience. Stick it into a Raspberry-Pi (of any flavour, from Pi Zero up) and you are at a MOS prompt in a couple of seconds. There's BBC BASIC V, with the ability to embed ARM, or via emulation 6502 assembler in that BASIC, network support, SVGA graphics, 8 channel FM sound, ... , just like it was in 1987, when the first Acorn Archimedes launched, along with access to the GPIO pins. Can even emulate the other 8-bit machines of the 1980s. Then when board simply switch the SDcard to some post 1995 ARM Linux distribution, and you have a vanilla Pi.

You have not experienced the true thru-hole experience until you have tried to squeeze a whole bunch of them onto a size limited 2-layer PCB. 40-pin dips are _huge_ Oh the joy :)- Cheers,

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

Definitely having the full ATX form factor to work with made it easy

@EngineeringVignettes

11 ай бұрын

@@slithymatt - Yep. Those RCS85 module kits are pretty tight though. I have some 8085 PCB modules I designed a while ago and compromised on a few jellybean logic chips, went for SMT. Main processor was still a 40 pin dip. Cheers,

Vector art makes more sense in 8-bit, because bitmaps are basically bit-banged photos. Vector art can morph and really use the calculating power of the system to create a living art. To have an eZ80 to play with that can do things with vector graphics sounds exciting to me!

Well done for doing this. There is a bit of needle for some between the X16 and the Agon (which I own!), so prepare for some tetchy comments! :D

@bzuidgeest

11 ай бұрын

Can you blame them? Every time you mention a competitor on Murray's channel comments, it has a high chance of being auto deleted. That is just poor behavior.

@schrodingerscat1863

11 ай бұрын

I don't get the CX16 at all, it's supposed to be a 'retro' feel machine hence all the DIL chips but uses an FPGA for all it's graphics. If you are going to use an FPGA just use it for everything and be done with it, then they used a bunch of sound chips at least one of which is no longer in production. The current effort currently costing something like $1000 by the time it's all assembled with a case and shipped, which is crazy money for something that is little more than a curiosity. They would have been better using an eZ80 like the Agon along with their FPGA graphics and everything else. It would have made a far cheaper, simpler and more capable system. In fact if they sold the graphics module on its own that would be quite a nice module for providing graphics capabilities to all kinds of projects.

@bzuidgeest

11 ай бұрын

@@schrodingerscat1863 i agree. I see Vera as the real value of this thing. It's open source and separate so it should be possible to adapt it to any SBC project. We need a good FPGA retro video implementation. I always hoped the c256 would eventually open up the graphics chip (Vicky III), but i have given up hope on that. Vera should do fine too. This board is what you get if you mix nostalgia, lack of engineering experience and dreams. And then throw out any practicality. It's a waste, but they have a large group of believers. And they'll get there eventually. Your price estimate is a little high.

@schrodingerscat1863

11 ай бұрын

@@bzuidgeest Yes, Vera has all the bells and whistles for classic 2D graphics, tile maps, pallets, sprites and overlays. Totally open source and I believe its not too expensive either. Plus as it is FPGA can be upgraded in future with more features. Unfortunately the price estimate is what the forums are currently talking about, their bill of material costs have gone through the roof over the past year or so and manufacturing costs are astronomical because it was designed to look retro rather than being designed for practical manufacture.

@bzuidgeest

11 ай бұрын

@@schrodingerscat1863 yet if i suggest even half that estimate, people go through the roof, calling me all kinds of evil.

Please cover the Uzebox. The Uzebox has a PS2 keyboard adapter which you can use run CP/M and UzeboxUI. Uze ported your mandelbrot program to the Uzebox and it is faster than the Agon Light, even whilst its using its MCU to provide graphics. When graphics are disabled, it computes it in a fraction of the time of the Agon light so it seems to be fastest 8 bit platform. Unlike the Agon, it also has decent sound - better than a beeper anyway.

@slithymatt

9 ай бұрын

I'd gladly cover it if someone sent me one!

@danboid

9 ай бұрын

@@slithymatt Good call! I'll see if I can arrange that for you.

The Agon Firmware is constantly being improved, it will be interesting to see what happens with the graphics over time.

@Booruvcheek

7 ай бұрын

So am I correctly assuming you could write your own ESP32 code, turning Agon's VDP into, say, Sega Genesis / MegaDrive VDP, or Super Nintendo's PPU, or something else?

Just use the plot command for setting a pixel, thats a few chars on the serial line and probably with SPI so no wait

Great video! However, isn't the ez80 specced to run at 50 MHz? Both systems have their use case, but I prefer the choise of 65C02 as being a static processor. Much better suited for learning microprocessors since it's easy to single step

@keyboard_g

11 ай бұрын

It can. It’s in the graphing calculator TI-84 Plus CE running at 48mhz.

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

It depends on the model you are using. There's a whole line of eZ80s for different use cases.

@schrodingerscat1863

11 ай бұрын

Some of the eZ80 variants can but not all.

That's pretty interesting! I picked up an Agon Light 2 recently when I was already placing an order for some electronic parts, but I still need to find time to really learn how to use it properly. Judging by the games that have been made for the X16 so far (and the quality thereof), I'd sure like to get one of those, too, although my budget tells me "NO" for the time being. They may be aimed roughly at the same community of retro enthusiasts, but they are definitely each their own, distinct machine!

@Booruvcheek

7 ай бұрын

X16 is just way too expensive. And so is Foenix F256K. I mean, if you can afford them, more power to you, but I find Agon much more attractive.

@MandrakeDCR

6 ай бұрын

@@jocm99 Ok I'm game, how is the X16 a scam exactly?

@donovan6320

2 ай бұрын

​@@MandrakeDCRI believe they are butthurt and rightfully so, about the fact the x16 set out with multiple goals at the start and accomplished pretty much none of them after 3 years.

@MandrakeDCR

2 ай бұрын

@@donovan6320 Perhaps, but not "rightfully so" - he's been absolutely crystal clear throughout the process, and what they've run up against, how they've overcome it, and what the end goals are. People seem to keep projecting many more multiple goals than were ever promised I notice, which is where a lot of undue butthurt comes from. X16 was never designed to be an Agon type device. Enjoy your preference. It is what it is.

@donovan6320

2 ай бұрын

@@MandrakeDCR It was never meant to be an agon-like device, however, the agon did what it set out to do significantly better than the end result of the Commander X16, It's not priced at $50 or less and probably never will be. It doesn't rely on all new and currently manufactured components as was the goal. It uses FPGAs which were a big no-no in the original plan and significantly more expensive. Ironically enough, the agon light is pretty damn close to the outline made by the 8-bit guy in his initial video talking about how he was going to start working on the Commander X16.

Great video! The Agon is of course far ahead in Basic Speed...:)

Not sure why there's all this focus on performance. I mean, I get that that's the purpose of this particular video but who's looking to an 8-bit machine for the purpose of maximum performance? I would think, realistically, that's *way* down on the list of priorities. For non-programmers, you're looking for a wide variety of software. For programmers, you're looking for a system that's fun to program for (which is subjective, but usually entails a good instruction set, a good number of registers, a video chip that is powerful and can maybe be hacked to do crazy unintended things, and a sound chip that's also powerful and hackable. And a system that is memory-constrained just enough to present you some challenges to get your game to fit.) I think I can say (with some confidence) that judging systems by the ones that are "fun to program" by the definition I listed above, X16 and Agon would land somewhere near the bottom (for different reasons.)

I really wish I could go to the store and buy one of these like back in the 80's.

Would you please add in the Foenix F256jr to the 8bit battle as well?

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

Sure, if someone sends me one!

@Ojref1

6 ай бұрын

Everything behind that system is jank unfortunately.

I think the Agon Light looks like a pretty cool machine and it is relatively inexpensive and available right now - though it is a shame about what you mentioned regarding tile and sprite maps seems to be a bit hamstrung.. I was also considering the Feonix 256k or 256jr but cant really justify the cost. The basic on the feonix might be better than the Agon? But again pinch of salt stuff as i don't have that machine. Im also looking forward to the RM800XL when that gets released, I might buy that or the feonix 256k. I don't really have any interest in the X16 is just maybe too expensive at this point. I wish them well of course with that machine. Retro community seems to be very tribal

Saying the 8Mhz 65c02 in the commander x16 was "unimageable" back in the day isn't quite right. The PC Engine used a 7Mhz 65c02, so the chip - and speed were around, just never used in a home machine.

@d4qatoa

5 ай бұрын

Except the Apple II upgrades. ZipChip 8mhz for example, was a product. While they weren't stock, they were readily available to someone that wanted one.

Reason for your "Pregnant pause is the mode change". In the basic version, delete line 10 and run it as follows (not shouting - just had caps on for the commands lol) MODE 2 - WAIT FOR IT TO CHANGE TO MODE 2 AND THE MONITOR RESYNC CLS:RUN - NO PAUSES IT RUNS STRAIGHT OFF

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

You're going to have a longer wait the second way! Starting from Mode 2, the plot takes about 0.7 seconds, but that's still something that has to be done after startup

@MackTheBass

11 ай бұрын

@@slithymatt Your system is running shit faster than mine, was ~10secs for the basic to finish using my above method (didn't time it) -

The agon is neat in that it's in stock and you can actually buy the thing but the x16 has a whole emulator running on the web so you can play around without having to buy or download anything.

@slithymatt

9 ай бұрын

There is an emulator for the Agon now, too, but it's still a work in progress.

so honest question, what is it that makes the CX16 "a dream computer" compared to other 8bit peojects? the only thing that really seems to make any difference is that one is 350$+ and requires you to supply your own original sound chip? Besides that though, it looks like both pretty much do the same thing with the same outcomes?

@slithymatt

9 ай бұрын

You don't have to supply your own sound chip. The X16 recreates the immediacy of Commodore 8-bit development with better graphics and sound and the ability to use more modern I/O like SD cards and VGA monitors.

Does'nt the inbuilt Z80 assembler of BBC basic work on the Agon ?

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

It does, but it's not as easy to deal with as a regular assembler

Before watching: Why are you comparing apples and oranges? After watching the video: Great video! I wonder what the leaderboard would be if normalised per MHz.

Fantastic video Matt! Just keep in mind that the Agon is switching video mode in the beginning. In a truly fair comparison that would be left out. But it's so much faster anyway, it may be immaterial to make such a correction...

@jc33353

11 ай бұрын

Seems close enough. Shame about the overall graphics/video situation, though. Hope it gets better.

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

Yeah, by switching to mode 2 first, it takes about 0.7 seconds. So depending on your monitor, that video switch could take longer or shorter.

@digitaljestin

11 ай бұрын

How would you recommend doing a pixel level Mandelbrot like the X16 can do?

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

@@digitaljestin I've actually got it working since making this video. You can see the code in the repo: github.com/SlithyMatt/multi-mandlebrot/blob/main/agon/M2BITMAP.BAS Spoiler alert: it involves making single-pixel bitmap assets for each color.

@digitaljestin

11 ай бұрын

@@slithymatt Nice!

How do you think they'd compare to a 32-bit RP2040 running at 150 MHz running an Arm version of BASIC? I have the Neotron Pico board, I just need to finish porting BASIC.

@bzuidgeest

11 ай бұрын

Interesting, the big problem i see is the pico lacking graphics hardware. It can do VGA or DVI but at a high cost. You really need a secondary chip for that.

@gertk2303

11 ай бұрын

@@bzuidgeest you are forgetting that the Pico has seperate IO 'processors' which can create VGA without much overhead. Just as the ESP can handle Z80 emulation just fine while doing VGA. Sure it is not as fast as the combo ez80 ESP32 but it is faster than any 8 bit machine.

@bzuidgeest

11 ай бұрын

@@gertk2303 the Io does only just that io. The dvi option uses a full CPU core to calculate the data, leaving you with only one core for your code. The vga option is a little less demanding, but it uses a large number of io. There is also not enough ram for multiple planes, and no sprite hardware at all. I'm not denying it's a useful and capable chip. But it was never meant to be a home computer. And then there is sounds support and controllers and storage..... I like the pico, I have a few. And as i said your suggestion is interesting. If you overcome the limitations, post a video.

My understanding is the video display processor is a ESP32-PICO-D4 - which you could program independently. What you could do is do all the "bitblt" operations on the ESP32-PICO-D4, and use the EZ80 to send "protocol" to the ESP32-PICO-D4. Which would give you some very fast processing. For example, writing a "Mario" type program, you could do the "screen scrolling" logic on the ESP32-PICO-D4, and the EZ80 would merely send a "scroll left" command to the ESP32-PICO-D4. In a full-on, head-to-head battle, I have no doubt the Agon Light will outperform the X16 in just about any test.

@slithymatt

6 ай бұрын

Sure, a 240MHz 32-bit processor is going to do math faster than an 8MHz 65C02.

@donovan6320

2 ай бұрын

But that's kind of a point, of the argon. The VDP is flexible, You could write a 3D graphics API and expose that with the z80 doing the game calculations.​@@slithymatt

Is there a Compiler for Basic?

@slithymatt

8 ай бұрын

For which platform? There is a version of Blitz Basic under development for the X16, and that will make BASIC programs run much faster.

A neat comparison would be BBC BASIC vs. MICRO$OFT BASIC, such as the AGON 2 and TRS80 Level 2...

Did I miss the reason for the startup pause on the Agon?

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

All the graphics setup has to be done over the serial link between the eZ80 and the ESP32. Just clearing the screen takes nearly a full second.

@frnno967

11 ай бұрын

@@slithymatt I thought it was because of the mode change?

@avalonbits

11 ай бұрын

Yes. That whole pause is due to the LCD resyncing the display, not clearing the screen.

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

@@frnno967 possibly? It's not exactly clear. It has to change modes, clear the screen and define a custom character. Between all that it takes the better part of a second

@avalonbits

11 ай бұрын

​@The Retro Desk just downloaded your code, assembled it and ran on my agon. Before running it, I changed the video to mode 2 on the command line (VDU 22 2 command) so my lcd would properly sync. After that, ran the assembly code. Took 0.68s according on my timer app and fat fingers :) Please repeat the test by setting vdu to mode 2 prior to running the code so we can get more accurate results.

I wonder if spending just a little more and maybe replacing the ESP32 with something like the FT800 embedded display, audio (and touch) graphics controller IC would be a better fit? ::shrug::

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

Yeah, definitely anything that's actually made to control a display. Depending on a microcontroller for VGA video is a bit fraught.

Why isn't it clokked at 50mhz? Why isn't there 16mb of fast dualported video ram as well as 16mb of ram?

It's a pain to find out the Agon doesn't have direct access to videoram, if one wanted to do fast update of pixels for bitmap demoscene effects. I come from the CPC where you could optimize some classic pixel effects like rotozoomer or plasma and still have them running ok on some 64x64 pixel buffer, so my hope was since ez80 is much faster, I could port things for bigger screen sizes, that would be fun. I quickly realize when I tried coding on Agon, that everything has to go through the VDP. There is a function to copy bitmap, I tried with 32x32 or 64x64, haha. It's barely 2 fps. But then I should look further, there might be a lot of other tricks with buffers I read about, however I can mimic certain demoscene effects with the text/sprite/vector drawing I believe. It's more of a challenge now, make something good that moves. Maybe I can just do lowres buffer too with simply chars, hehe.. but there are some docs on attaching buffers, however not obvious what to do with them. And possibly still a pain.

A good video, but Spectrum Next Assembly needs to not be 'hidden' in your figures.

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

I think the Spectrum Next will reappear when we talk about higher resolution plots. I'm going to see if the Agon is capable of doing anything more than an 80-column terminal plot at 16 colors, because I'm not so sure.

32:28: 16×16=256, not 64. Or I got something wrong? 4 bytes is 32 bits. What is the connection between these numbers in context of pixels?

@slithymatt

10 ай бұрын

Agon uses 32-bit RGBA values for color pixels.

@kirill_bykov

10 ай бұрын

@@slithymatt, why 64 color limitation then? We must expect 16777216 colors with 1 byte wasted for A. How these 32, 64, 256 are connected?

@slithymatt

10 ай бұрын

@@kirill_bykov it's a hardware limitation. There are only two bits for each color channel. That's why it's overkill that you should specify 32 bits

@kirill_bykov

10 ай бұрын

@@slithymatt, are you somehow related to the architecture? Can I ask you a question about why 32 bits instead of 6 was chosen?

@slithymatt

10 ай бұрын

@@kirill_bykov no, that design choice was made by Dean Belfield to make it work like the BBC Micro

X16 Commander for the win.

Can't do pixel resolution for the mandelbrot set ?

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

Not yet, at least not on the Agon. I'm working on different strategies to make it happen. It's definitely not what it was designed to do.

@jonathangraham5179

11 ай бұрын

I don't have one of these but BBC BASIC implements high-resolution drawing commands and they seem to work in the Agon emulator. So, I'd expect that this is no problem on a real Agon.

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

@@jonathangraham5179 I've been successful with my current strategy of placing 1-pixel bitmaps for each color. I may be able to do something similar with PLOT, but I'm not sure if that's going to be any more efficient

@jonathangraham5179

11 ай бұрын

​@@slithymatt Can't help you wrt efficiency without actual hardware. I haven't spent any time looking at this thing in detail. Generally speaking a BASIC statement with fewer parameters should parse more quickly.

@markstrickland438

10 ай бұрын

It seems like the Agon would be well suited to use a VS23S010 (as used in the original BASIC Engine) or the VS23S040. As far as that goes, these chips seem like they would be a great choice for any hobbyist type retro type machine.

Let's ignore the question of meaning. The problem is that there was a rumor about the The design of the X16 is a real machine that could have been built in 1986. The argon uses two highly integrated chips, which of course makes things cheaper. It would definitely be even cheaper if you ported the basic directly to the ESP32. With the ESP-VGA bibliotek you could build a computer that would cost about 10 USD. The X16 simply disappointed too many who were hoping for an acceptable price.

BBC BASIC can take assembler as you would type it in and it would run for passes to build the program something like... 10 PRINT "THIS IS BASIC" 15 DIM GAP% 20 16 P%=GAP% 20 [ 30 JSR &FFE7 40 ] 50 PRINT "AND THIS IS BASIC TOO"

New Agon8 out

Yes, the 65C02 and 65C816 can go to the 20s in speed, but yes, they are rated at 14 MHz.

Cool! I came from FB.

Would it have been better to have written in the Z80A rebuild of BBC BASIC.

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

Does such a thing exist?

@DAVIDGREGORYKERR

11 ай бұрын

It is a rebuild of BBC BASIC for the ZILOG Z80A and most certainly the AGON

Personally i would buy both if i had the money. I think David gets too much hate. He did say on his last video that his team are trying to get the cost down in future versions. Bernard is a 8 bit wizard. The Agon is amazing. He's a professional computer design engineer whereas Davids team are enthusiasts who wanted to create their dream 8 bit computer. It does feel a little like the playground wars with the C64 and the Speccy back in the day. Hey nerds will be nerds.

Ok, so I'm not sure the 1.5s is accurate because most of the time is for switching the video mode on your LCD. You should repeat that test by first changing the screen to the mode you are using on your basic program and only then run it.

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

The X16 is capable of changing screen modes instantly, so it's still pretty fair. I tried the Agon one starting in Mode 2 and it still takes about a second, but you can watch it plot live. With the video switch, it becomes visible within a quarter second on finishing.

@avalonbits

11 ай бұрын

@The Retro Desk that's because it is fundamentally running at 640x480 all the time. Changing screen mode is actually a scalling operation, if I understood the vera correctly. The agon vdp actually changes VGA timings to set the resolution at the signal level and that requires a monitor resync. In the end, you are not benchmarking how fast the video mode changes, the X16 is a winner there no doubt. What you are benchmarking is how fast it can plot the Mandelbrot, so eliminating the video switching is the correct thing to do. Otherwise, I could argue that the X16 could instantaneously print "Hello world" in 320x240 mode whereas the agon would take 1.5s and that is clearly not the case.

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

@@avalonbits agreed, my point is that it's a matter of user experience. You're going to have to wait for a resync every mode change, and often the results are unstable.

@avalonbits

11 ай бұрын

@The Retro Desk agreed, this is indeed a user experience thing and for every program that needs to change the mode, you would have to wait. But you are not benchmarking the user experience, just the raw speed of ploting the mandelbrot.

In the 2023 update video David is talking about how the X16 might be used in competitive gaming. What the heck was he talking about? I've heard no more about it since that video. He talks about it at 25:50 in the Commander X16 2023 update video. He says the game cartridge will have a TPM and an encrypted serial number that is unique to that cartridge. He says there will be a network interface and you can compete for bounties and other things to win if you had the high score. It sounds batshat insane! lol. First it was to be used in competitive gaming, now he thinks he will be used in the educational market. In the next video he'll probably be saying it can be used as a business machine. Ha!

@slithymatt

6 ай бұрын

There is a deal with an eSports company, and they drove the requirement for a cartridge. Details about that will be shared when that company is ready. One of the goals for the X16 from the beginning was as an educational tool. Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative.

@HerecomestheCalavera

6 ай бұрын

@@slithymatt My narrative? What are you on about?

You also loaded the binary version. So its a bit more like loading a compiled program.

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

Loading a binary basic program only makes the load go faster. There's no difference at run time. It's putting the same tokenized basic into RAM

Surprised C64 is so slow compared to all the rest, 2x slower than ZX Spectrum? I thought Spectrum was a budget-optimized device...

I think these are like comparing apples and oranges because their design priorities were very different. Both are cool though in their own right.

@novh4ck

11 ай бұрын

AL2 is a The 8-bit Guy's dream computer according to The Byte Attic so a comparison seems appropriate. :)

There is an ez80 that runs 2.5 times faster than the one in the Agon that is only $6 more. If they want to be the fastest 8bit then they should have used it. The graphics for the Agon lets it down with its limiting 2bits per colour channel. As for the X16, it was bizarre that they ditched the 65816. I think they have realised their mistake of making such an expensive machine with plans to a cost reduced version. It will be interesting to see Olimex's 6502 based machine when it is released.

@keyboard_g

11 ай бұрын

It was never meant to be the fastest. It was meant to be a teaching/learning tool. Only a few chips. It was designed in the open. Software and hardware are all open. The creator has made other computers and the Agon wasn’t made to gun after the X16. It just stuck to the goal of simplicity at a time when the X16 changed.

@stephenwhite506

11 ай бұрын

@@keyboard_g Nevertheless, they call it the black belt of 8bits. More like Shodan Ho since there could be a 50MHz version which would be a proper Shodan. 😀

@jonathangraham5179

11 ай бұрын

Were I to guess, the colour output and the serial bus are related -- in a sense. The ESP32 has ~30-40GPIOs (depending on what you want them to do). That's a lot when you are dealing with serial interfaces but any kind of parallel interface eats them up. Feeding the output from the ESP32 to to a DAC means you need to consume a GPIO for every bit of colour. Even 16 bit colour would consume over HALF of the available pins. Similarly increasing the speed of the CPU/GPU interface could be accomplished by adding more serial links -- once again that chews up more GPIOS. I agree that the X16 dropping is 65816 was silly. IIRC Dave mentioned in some video that the fact that the data bus is multiplexed with the high 8 bits of the address bus being a problem. This statement blew my mind. It's such a trivial implementation problem that the datasheet itself gives you a sample circuit.

@TheKnobCalledTone.

11 ай бұрын

That would have pushed the Agon Light's price beyond USD $50. Had The 8-Bit Guy never stated in his original "My Dream Computer" video that his goal was for a machine using a real CPU that cost USD $50, Bernardo probably would've specced it a bit higher rather than chasing the $50 price point challenge laid down.

@shanehebert396

11 ай бұрын

Would also require faster memory, faster other parts, etc. It'd be a 50MHz design rather than 20MHz, as well. Personally, I'd like to see what they could do with double the budget ($100 or $120)... 50MHz eZ80, maybe 4MB RAM, maybe better graphics (would be cool to have something like the Vera on it, but that would be more, too). ;)

you should look at the zeal 8 bit computer nobody is giving it the attention it deserves

@slithymatt

7 ай бұрын

I actually plan on getting one soon. I've been in communication with the creator.

So, the best computer to buy is an Agon, I wonder if my favourite games are available.

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

If you want to do low-resolution fractal plots, sure, but it's not well suited for games. There are hardly any available at this point, but maybe some will come out if the graphics performance improves.

Is the AgonLight really 8-bit tho? I'd consider it 24-bit. Hey, You should make a video about how bit counts work, and about how it's one part technical and one part marketing.

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

It's definitely still an 8-bit microcontroller. It has a partial 24-bit ALU for adding and subtracting 24-bit addresses, but the data bus is still just 8 bits, and is only fully functional with 8-bit arithmetic and logic. And you know, I should make that video. Let me get in my time machine so it can be released 2 years ago: kzread.info/dash/bejne/lqmYp6ykfce4ptY.html

@andrewdunbar828

11 ай бұрын

The original Z80 always had 16-bit addresses and register pairs but nobody would consider it a 16-bit processor. Unlike the TMS9900.

Though much faster, with a more modern design, seems the Agon would be trickier to program a game on

It looks like you do not realize on LCD you have mode switch and it is slower than mode switch happens on CRT monitor

Get a c256 jr and add that to your leaderboard. I think your defense of the x16 will be blown skyhigh and completely out of the water.

@njspencer79

11 ай бұрын

How is a 6.3 MHz 65C02 going to beat an 8 MHz 65C02 on computational reliant code like Mandelbrot? Further as much as I like the f256 Jr. As its tech docs are impressive. A well designed system no doubt. Unless you want just the PSG you have to add a SID (SID replacement) or two. Assuming you want SNES pads $125 for the converter. I have been told the specs are wrong and 512K is now the standard. But assuming not another $40 for the 256K ram upgrade. As for the gfx capabilities it is debatable that TinyVicky will out perform the VERA. The Vera has 256 sprites vs TinyVicky has 64. Further I am concerned how many different systems past and present are listed on the c256foenix site. How long will the 256K or Jr be provided and supported? Matt says further in comments he would be happy to review if someone would provide him one. Since you like to post on about anything involving the x16 about the Foenix maybe you should offer to send him one for testing.

@SquallSf

11 ай бұрын

Graphics on f256 sux.

@bzuidgeest

11 ай бұрын

@@SquallSf my foenix fmx has 4mb of dedicated memory, 24 bit graphics and high res modes and more sprites etc. Tiny Vicky is a bit less, but still not that bad. And it's cheaper than the x16 and out for over a year. The foenix systems are build by a single woman. A very good engineer. She did in a year what the x16 could not do in 3 years with a complete team. So tell me again how great the x16 is??? Also agon was also build much quicker, don't forget about that one. So how does that suck exactly compared to vera?

@bzuidgeest

11 ай бұрын

@@njspencer79 i only have a fmx model myself. And I'm not sending that across the world. But not everything is about CPU power. It's the total package. It's significantly cheaper and maybe a little slower in raw computational power. The FPGA sound is enough for most, and many sid enthusiasts already have Sid's on hand. If you are going to discuss raw CPU power alone you might as well buy a pi. Much more power in that CPU. I do admit the c256 line has its downsides too. It's less famous, therefore less attention, meaning less software out of the box. Chicken and egg on that. And yes Steff is all over the place with het designs. But she is trying to cater to everyone. Especially on the larger systems. She should take a lesson in marketing from Murray. My biggest problem is that everyone is calling Murray a great engineer for creating a prototype board in three plus years. Well in that case Steff must be a god of engineering to you all.

@SquallSf

11 ай бұрын

@@bzuidgeest please read careful, I said f256 not c256. I'm not familiar with VICKI II. First of all f256 cost around 600 bucks the base model. X16 has no price. So how you say it is cheaper? Second - what Tiny Vicky has? Sprites - max 64 limited to 32x32px, 8bpp only. Tiles - max 256, no H/V flip (can't recall where they 8bpp only)

I think whether this one or that winning I think the david murray's one is the phenomenon and it certainly will be updated and optimized in the future .because sometimes aesthetics rule baby. we live inside of these machines and they are making our hearts feeling more opened and they have spatial qualities in their own construction .

@Allen.Christian

11 ай бұрын

Not at $500 it isn't.

@keyvanmehrbakhsh4069

11 ай бұрын

@@Allen.Christian yes you are right not at 500$ neither even 300$ but still I think at least this kind of art works might lead to a reconsideration about different aspects of computation phenomenology or help developers about getting visions.

Hey maybe the X16 may be worth it in 15 years when they manage to just barely get the 3rd gen out

@Solinaru

9 ай бұрын

hopefully the chipset will be cheaper by then

they are not 8bit they are 8bit controlling amiga :) this is insane, because amiga does not need 8bit appendicitis

@zzavatski

11 ай бұрын

How much is brand new Amiga with VGA output?

@mightwilder

9 ай бұрын

@@zzavatski depends on your need, this could be free uae emulator, also could be real thing (expensive collectors item with superb vga converter) or MISTER fpga simulator platform

This is a ridiculous comparison. With retro computing, it’s not about speed and which is fastest. If speed was your primary concern, you may as well use a modern PC. Retro 8-bit computing is about playing with a system that runs code on a genuine 8-bit processor, and seeing what you can get it to do with the limited computing power that was available to you at the time. Each system has its pros and cons.

Spectrum Next or the Mister actually make sense, as they can use the existing libraries of software and allow for expanding upon them within some expectation of compatibility. I wanted tot like the Commander X16 project from the very start, but if people were honest, then it is only a gimmick. On paper, the CX16 is a very impressive 8bit micro, but in reality is less useful than an Arduino. Even the nostalgia factor is disconnected from reality. My friends and I wish we had better systems, or maxed-out systems since the early 80's to the late 2000's (and we achieved that in adulthood), we also look at all sorts of microcontrollers and gimmicky computers such as the CX16 and think that those would have been cool in the 80's. However, the reality is that these never existed in the 80's and just as nobody can claim nostalgia for the Arduino, there's none for the CX16 either. You have a bunch of enthusiasts following someone's dream, and that's nice, that each write some demos and try out other's, but that's the whole novelty. I guess that what bothers me is the direct comparison to machines that already did all of these (admitedly much slower) 40 years ago, machines that have taught generations of users and prorgramers, machines that through their vast libraries of software and wide spread deployment have shaped the present and future of technology. I am all in on whatever suits someone's needs and nostalgia: emulation, fpga-s, vintage hardware, especially modern extensions for vintage hardware (gotek-s, accelerators, ram expansions, etc.), as that has profound cultural and educational implications, but these modern incompatibles don't highlight any appeal to me. The rality is that I can have extremely fast basic on a modern machine, I can have extremely fast "retro machines" in emulation, fpga-s or accelerators on real hardware, I can have dedicated machines that do both (like the Speccy Next). Yes, I do get it that it's not for everyone, and is definitely not for me, but I find the amplitude of the hype surrounding these gimmicks as almost insulting to the history of computing.

agon is the best

@jc33353

11 ай бұрын

Certainly faster, but I’d classify it as just different. I mean, if speed is the only consideration then don’t buy either of these.

considering the fact that the agon was designed by 1 guy and costs roughly 50 euro... I just can't take the Commander X16 project seriously anymore... 3 years of development, several people and the price increases from 50 to 350-500..... sry, but that's ridiculous

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

The through hole version was never going to be $50. That would be for high-volume ASIC or FPGA implementation.

@keyboard_g

11 ай бұрын

And out of print chips and fpga. All things that were never the goal. It just steadily became something else that I’m no longer interested in. It’s still neat, just not seemingly an updated thing modelled after a Vic20.

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

@@keyboard_g two microcontrollers with a serial bottleneck was never the goal, either. Good news is nobody is forced to like or buy anything!

@avalonbits

11 ай бұрын

It is a different product with a different goal. I still want one but will wait for phase 3 or 4, whichever is the cheap one. Until then, having a lot of fun with my Agon.

@petermuller608

11 ай бұрын

Personally I see little value of another tightly integrated 6502 system, since we already have the C64 dtv

Are you suggesting that the Spectrum Next is not an actual 8-bit processor just because it uses an FPGA chip? If you are then you are sorely mistaken. FPGA chips reproduce hardware logic exactly, they do not "emulate" computers like most people say. So, they are actual 8-bit processors when reproducing reproducing the logic of 8-bit processors! You can consider FPGA chips to be like custom made consolidated chips like the ULA chip of the original Spectrums, the SID chip of the C64, and all the custom named chips like Paula or Agnus of the Amiga. The only difference between FPGA and consolidated custom chips is that the FPGA is just temporarily configured and custom chips are hard wired to stay that way. Also, using a BASIC version of the routine on the Next and then comparing it with an assembly version is not a fair test as you know using assembly on the next at 28MHz would blow your test out of the water 😛

@slithymatt

11 ай бұрын

The key distinction with the FPGA-only processors is that they do not have the same clock restrictions, so you can run at 50MHz or whatever your FPGA allows. There is a much harder limit on fixed 8-bit CPUs, and that's why it's a separate class of machine. My direct comparisons with the Next, if you actually bothered to watch those videos, were for comparable benchmarks: BASIC to BASIC, then Assembly to Assembly.

1st

@andrewdunbar828

11 ай бұрын

I feel dirty now (-:

X16 sucks.

This is the most pointless test/comparison in the history of head to head benchmarks. Both are the vanity projects of a youtuber, most of which are insufferable narcissists. Neither have any mainstream appeal and most importantly, don't even fix the problem they intend to fix. In 5 years, neither of these machines will be available. That is the point. These are made to create new hardware purchasable today. But these will not withstand the test of time. 99% of the software available will be 1/2 finished demos. There will be a hand full of games worth playing a maybe a few hundred shovelware BS titles nobody will be interested in. But even if this wasn't true, it's still pointless. Nobody who is buying either machine is interested in buying the fastest. If they were, they'd buy a modern computer. One being Z80 based and beeb basic based and one being 6502 and C64 based means they are different machines appealing to different people. The z80 machine will see more popularity in Britain while the other will see more in the US.

You are not buying a super performance high power computer here. You are buying a super well designed effective 8-bt modern computer and becoming part of a tight nit high quality community too. With Agon it's the opposite you're only charged for the basic product but there is no value in the community as far as I can see. _For that reason I much prefer CX16 the Agon is not for me at this point._ tl;dr : Agon Lite seemed to be a cool little machine, but before I had a chance to get involved the community had already totally put me off. I am still awaiting my CX16 as I was not an early backer, and was more interested in the second edition which is super annoying, and I don't use social media so there is no way I will ever be told when it's released. But at least the community were really cool and polite, and didn't use shady strategies which negatively affect the channels the Agon guys were flooding with Marketing and anti-competitive slander on other products and people. Made me feel like Agon would be better off if somebody better bought the whole thing and it was no longer an Agon project. God knows why they behave that way - that is the reason I went totally off the idea of them! I actually stopped making BASIC and CX16 / Agon Lite content as a result of that treatment, considering it's total strangers to me and my channel is not a tech channel at all. They had no right behaving that way or treating my channel that way!! Meanwhile CX16 community is as you might expect and is the opposite. Nobody there wants to hack your channel or trick you into making content that favours their machine in the sales rather than the one you actually prefer in practical use. So I don't complain about the fact it is expensive, I recognise that you get exactly what you pay for and NO MORE THAN THIS. So I pay more for the better experience and nicer product and I 100% will be avoiding this Agon because of how the fans I never even had any dealings with behaved toward me. Not good. David on the other hand is totally trusthworthy and I have always thought this since I started buying things from the man and his company. I have all the stuff he sells already and it's all amazing super value super quality super everything. Agon needs to catch up in terms of all those areas. I think they probably will if somebody better at customer communication gets hold of Agon the company. Otherwise it's just gonna remain niche.

@avalonbits

11 ай бұрын

A few things: I am part of the Agon community and while this X16 / Agon banter is annoying and sometimes childish, I don't see the negativity in either community. The agon is a well designed piece of hardware that was released less then 1yo ago, with no emulator so no software other then bbc basic existed for it prior to its launch. The X16 has had an emulator for at least 3 yo l, so a lot of software has been written for it and only now the hardware is being (slowly) released. These are fundamentally different approaches, yielding fundamentally different expectations on these machines. Furthermore, the Agon is shaping up to be a full development machine, with text editors, assemblers running natively on it, no need to cross-compile, copy, repeat. And right now an emulator is being built that is already in a very usable state, so I expect the number of developers for it to grow over the years, just like it did for the X16. I'm sorry you feel put off by what you see as negative comments from the Agon community, but like I said this is banter that you can ignore. The community is always very helpful in getting people unstuck, providing guidance to its quirks (usb ps/2 keyboard, anyone?) and there is active development on MOS (the operating system) VDP (the graphics processor) and BBC basic (soon to run natively in 24bit mode, allowing access to the full 512KB memory as a linear address, no paging needed). In the end, I still want the X16 once it gets cheaper but I now view the X16 as a game console, whereas the Agon I view as an actual computer that I can get stuff done on it.

@sohl947

11 ай бұрын

@@avalonbits I'm impressed with the Agon community so far. Putting Nano and things like that on it is rather cool.