This was a good hair day for me.

When my co-workers wanted me to run D&D for them, none of them had played before, they had only watched stuff like Dimension 20 or listened to Dungeons and Daddies. So I just ran a heavily home brewed version that basically has very little 5e in it (a combination of Deathbringer rules and Five Torches Deep magic system and classes) and I just call it "Dungeons and Dragons" My players love it! It's got the core six ability scores, AC, and a d20, so it resembles what they've seen enough for them to grok it easily. What wizards doesn't understand is that you don't need any books to play their "property" that they spent all that money acquiring. There is no "real" or "official" D&D game by definition due to the nature of house rules and DM adjudication.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

You are wise.

@andrewtomlinson5237

8 ай бұрын

WOTC understand it all too well. It's why they work so hard to avoid letting their customers know it.

@StarkMaximum

8 ай бұрын

"It's got the core six ability scores, AC, and a d20" That's basically what most actual play streams and podcasts have of DnD too, so they're not even missing out.

@langwaters9653

8 ай бұрын

Word.

I think it used to be a gateway but now it’s on its way to becoming a monopoly. Very good points. WotC is definitely trying to become a monopoly

@LightningRaven42

8 ай бұрын

I don't really believe it was an achievement done by WoTC, but I think DnD5e is unusually an RPG that traps people. They will alter the entire thing and pack it full of house rules, homebrew systems, subsytems and so on, but they will never consider changing to other systems designed for to do what they wanted out of DnD5e. Maybe is the nature of online discourse and social media that fosters meaningless tribalism, thus, those who entered the hobby through 5e and are engaged with social media (most people these days), feel a need to belong to a large group as well as justifying their (very arbitrary, mind you) system choice, while pushing forward certain preconceptions of what RPGs should be (which is being like 5e) that end up "tarnishing" other games for those who won't even try them and will create a bad experience for those who do because they expect DnD5e but with a different flavor.

@NerfThisBoardGames

8 ай бұрын

WoTc wants it to be a monopoly But to me it's very much a Microsoft comparison, it's not technically a monopoly but it might as well be one given how little of a share non-wizards are all splitting. The only thing that makes me wonder that we don't have data for, is let's say there's 12 RPG companies out there, making 1 million in revenue each. They we equal to pathfinder, so wizards would actually be 80%

@Xplora213

8 ай бұрын

It’s been a monopoly for years. You will see just how much once they take their product online only.

@NerfThisBoardGames

8 ай бұрын

@@Xplora213 Perhaps but unlikely

@liljenborg2517

8 ай бұрын

D&D represents something like 90% of the Tabletop RPG market (and even in the third party and independent sectors most of the stuff they produce is specifically for D&D or "D&D compatible" with built in tables for that purpose). Those outside the hobby rarely even know that there are other RPGs - they're all D&D (they're actually getting to the point that "D&D" is entering Kleenex territory). That is functionally a monopoly. WotC is not TRYING to become a monopoly - everything they're doing is to PROTECT the monopoly they already have and extend their power over it - to make sure none of their fans and players even think of trying other systems, to make sure they can control 3rd party creators, to make sure they can monetize as much of the player base as possible.

In the 90s every friend group in my school played a different system. We had Merp, Shadowrun, Gurps, the Dark Eye, Vampire and yes also DnD, but it was one amongst others, not the one. I play Forbidden Lands with colleagues from work who had no idea what ttrpgs are.

@dukejaywalker5858

8 ай бұрын

Same. Every weekend we took turns GMing a different game. 2E D&D, Gamma World, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, and Vampire.

@slaapliedje

8 ай бұрын

How is The Dark Eye? I bought the books, but haven't had time to learn it.

@biseinerheult78

8 ай бұрын

I guess you`re German? I feel like D&D never had the same position in German speaking countries that it had in the anglosphere. If you played role playing games as a kid in the 90s, your first system was usually The Dark Eye, since it was published by Schmidt Spiele and so was sold in every toy and board game store, while Dungeons and Dragons was usually confined to more specialised stores (or bigger toy or games stores that had a larger selection of role playing games).

@jackmorrison5272

8 ай бұрын

​@@slaapliedjeThe system has its pros an cons. Characters a way less powerful than dnd equivalente but feel more grounded. The best is the detailed world of Aventuria. Nice late Middle Age feeling.

@LB-yg2br

8 ай бұрын

The 90’s was really a golden age and kids today just have NO IDEA what they missed

When I first played the current addition was 3.0 and decided to buy all the books, it was about 6 months before 3.5 was released. I bought the books again, then the supplements started to appear... I was in high school, I couldn't keep up and just stopped playing all together. Then about 5 years ago I started to get interested in the hobby, but my memories of power creep and FOMO were still there. That is what pushed me to the indy market of games. Here are publishers like Runehammer that were constantly updating their material FOR FREE and an active community of creators that were just giving away their ideas. I am not sure how to round out this thought but figured I would share, you know, for engagement :)

@pietrayday9915

8 ай бұрын

That's even more to the point about the sunk-cost fallacy than the Professor tried to make about the online elements of new D&D: those stacks of books that D&D gamers get roped into buying every couple years are, I think, a large part of what keeps them chained to Wizards/Hasbro, alongside that fear that nobody will game with them if they don't default to D&D! I started my gaming "career" back in the '80s before 3.0, with a GM who was happy to introduce us to new non-D&D games all the time, but lost interest until coming back in time for 3.5 to kick in, and I can absolutely sympathize with your experience: what started out as a chance to relive the days when I had fun exploring strange dungeons with a bunch of friends using one of the 3.0 or 3.5 boxed starter sets quickly blossomed into an expensive collection of books and piles of minis and so on that just got more and more expensive, while the rules seemed unnecessarily complicated to introduce new gamers to, and the it seemed like we were being pushed into new editions of all that crap every couple years... I really started to miss the days when we could have more fun with one core rulebook (or sometimes no rulebooks), a fistful of dice, and some scratch graphing paper and pencils. It seems like there's an opportunity to "deprogram" at least some of the D&D-or-nothing gamers in there somewhere, between the pressure to re-sink the sunk-cost every couple years, the learning curve of having to learn D&D all over with each new edition, and the stripped-down, low-cost, low-filler quality of a lot of independent games, on top of an opportunity to try different genres, and escape from the weird political/social baggage that Wizards/Hasbro seem determined to saddle their games and their customers with! It's just a matter of being able to get the message to D&D gamers effectively about the world of RPGs out there beyond the limits of D&D. And it's not like it demands much commitment from them, when most small, indie RPGs have only one core rulebook with very few other requirements, and groups can play D&D at the same time or switch back to D&D any time they want - the opposite is hardly true for small/indie gamers trying to get into D&D, with its much steeper demands on our incomes, time, effort, and space on our bookshelves!

@jbdelphiaiii7637

8 ай бұрын

Books, in the end are what they sell. I do a little FOMO myself, since I want to know where my players are coming from. But for me its an easy sell a lot of times, I'm retired and I got the money, the books have decent art and ideas in them. I *wish* there'd be more illustrations in a lot of the SF & Fantasy books I buy. Not just the cover art.

@Maehedrose

8 ай бұрын

That's just why I didn't bother buying new editions. 2E did everything I wanted, with a little house-ruling to fill out the areas we thought could improve, and buying all the books again in 3.x edition held no interest. Especially since I didn't like those editions, and haven't liked any of them as well as 2E.

@DaKdawg

8 ай бұрын

I run with a group that plays exclusively 2.0. They're slowly transitioning to 5.0, but until then we are still having fun with our old campaigns. Fortunately we were able to buy a lot of the old books that are still floating around.

@gabrielhersey5546

8 ай бұрын

Dungeon crawl classics 90 books of DnD 3.5 condensed into one single incredible stand alone DnD game book that stands out on its own.

Corporate Consolidations is a HUGE PROBLEM for humanity. Black Rock is an example, and it represents MORE of a portion of inflation than people realize.

@EmeraldVideosNL

8 ай бұрын

True, they practically own everything. And yet still people are surprised to hear pepsi and coca cola are actually of the same owner.

@blackhawk8920

8 ай бұрын

What ttrpg has dnd bought/acquired?

It was certainly a gateway for me. But in fairness I started playing in 1986

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Nice!

@DoanBrianRoessler

8 ай бұрын

Same, but 1982 here. Um, I guess I'm old! lol

@gusferrer1895

8 ай бұрын

I've been playing since 1980. I was 10 years old that summer and I was completely obsessed with DnD (well...AD&D). Now, I am over Wizards' BS....I have a multiple bookshelves full of RPGS, both indie and larger pressings, but it is a constant struggle to get people to buy in to any system but DnD. Very frustrating, but my plan now days is to run one-shots in different systems. Eventually, open-minded players will see that options are a good thing.

@steelmongoose4956

8 ай бұрын

1979 for me.

@sethhale8828

8 ай бұрын

93 for me. A guy that used to drive me to church got me into the game. We would go to church on Sunday mornings. Then we would go back to my friend's house and his mom would make us lunch and we would play 2nd Edition AD&D. It changed my life that year

I guess the actual act of playing an RPG allows for D&D to be monolithic. As opposed to the health of Marvel/DC building up the environment for Boom and Dark Horse to also be successful. . It’s a different thing to organize and play two different TTRPGs than to read two 20-page floppy comics.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Interesting. Food for thought.

I'm from Brazil and I can confirm the intro story, we used to have a diverse landscape before the d&d steamroller and if anything rpgs were more popular than they are now, this reminded of an old ars technica post from when steam was more open with its data, the conclusion was that steam might have millions of users, but less than 100 thousand would buy indie games with any frequency (it was like 2 per year I think)

@luisgusta

8 ай бұрын

Yeah, also from Brazil, I remember the late 2000's, when there was no D&D on events around here. You would find so many tables with 3D&T, Savage Worlds, Call of C'thullu. Star Wars Saga was the only d20 game I used to play back then, and that's it. Back then there were so many events too, I could fill my month just going on them on every weekend. Nowadays I look up those old ones and cannot find them anymore. Only paid GMs, DM'ing 5e campaigns. Most events died out around 2017. I think online games was a big part of it, but we had VTTs since them, while 2017 was when D&D became big again. Só I cannot think it was a coincidence.

@tremorstudio9766

8 ай бұрын

Brazil também, eu comecei RPG com Mundo das Trevas e depois fui pra terceira edição de D&D e depois para Call of Cuthulhu. Hoje, eu e meu grupo jogamos com um sistema próprio

The OGL scandal really opened my eyes to the poor business practices of WotC. I already had a level of disdain for 5e because I wanted to run a Mörk Borg game, but nobody I knew liked the system, and so when that scandal happened, I jumped ship pretty quickly. My group is currently playing OSE and we're having the most fun we've had in a while. It's unfortunate that the scandal did not have any long-term consequences for WotC, as it was seriously terrible.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Ah...but it did. Wait until NEXT week's video.

@alchemical29

8 ай бұрын

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Now that you say that, I definitely will be.

@deckape67

8 ай бұрын

I have to wait a whole week!?! @@DUNGEONCRAFT1

@blackhawk8920

8 ай бұрын

If dnd did not exist those same would jumped to play Mörk Borg. DnD made them dislike Mörk Borg?

@chadwickerman

8 ай бұрын

Mork Bork is all style very little substance imo. Had it, played it, ran it, sold it.

When someone volunteers to DM a game i never give them crap for what system they want to use. As long as they understand i will need a little hand holding to learn. I am just so happy someone is willing to DM. DM's are the ones holding the power. DM's are in short supply but you can always find more players.

@rafibausk7071

8 ай бұрын

Exactly. I transferred my group from 5e to 2e around a year ago. And recently to Gamma World (1e). I'm one of only two DMs in my group. And the other one is only available about once a month. I'm trying to encourage some of the players to give it a shot. But until that happens, they're stuck with me and whatever system I choose to run. Ps. Though I'm not going to get them to learn a completely new system. Gamma World (1e) pretty much uses the D&D basic engine. Show them already be familiar aD&D 2e helps.

@robinmohamedally7587

8 ай бұрын

not for 3.5e. It's impossible to find players around here in Michigan who want to play anything that's not 5e

@kaimedar

8 ай бұрын

As a DM I wish my players thought this way. I want to move to 2e and they all refuse to change. Its making my friendship with them a bit stressful as they all chewed me out for trying to move to a different platform and refused to try anything new.

@calmhorizons

8 ай бұрын

@@kaimedar Just tell them it's "my way or the highway". Personally I wouldn't DM for anybody who doesn't respect that I want to have fun too.

@rafibausk7071

8 ай бұрын

@@kaimedar maybe slow roll them into it. That's kind of what I did. I started by doing a dark sun to 5e conversion. But since 5e has absolutely no true Psionic symptom. And one of my players wanted to play a part Psionic, I brought in the 2e system wholesale. What I would recommend is introduce them to the roll under system, by incorporating the 2e non-weapon proficiency system. They'll probably enjoy that as a form of character customization. And then slow drip systems to them over time. Like Reaction Rolls, and the like. Maybe presented as Homebrew instead of older edition material. Finally if THAC0 is a sticking point. Then here is two possible solutions. 1. Treat it as a modifier, use the THAC0 - Die Role = AC hit. 2. If they're really being annoying. Then just converted to positive values. THAC0 14 would be a +6 to hit. AC 7 would flip to 13. Hope this helps. Also they ever get wise to the fact that you're bringing this stuff in from 2e. Then you can just say that you're taking it from a game called "For Gold and Glory". Which is a osr 2e retro clone.

Trickle down has never worked. I'm grateful that I came into a group that was done with D&D.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Amen!

I would love a Dragonbane review. Currently running the box set and am loving it. My players are having a great time.

In an interesting turn of events, I found your video for UDT some years ago while KZread surfing for dungeon terrain ideas. This exposed me to other videos of yours where I learned about other games. This in turn exposed me to other KZreadr's like Questing Beast and the rest is history. I'm presently a full OSR convert.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

This comment made my day. Ben is a good guy.

About two years ago, burnt out at the end of a long campaign, I declared that I was over running D&D but happy to run other systems. Turns out my friends like trying out new games, we’ve had a lot of fun, and it’s restored my enjoyment of GMing as I realised just how many of the things that caused my burnout were specific to D&D.

@darrenwastestime

8 ай бұрын

What burns you out about dnd?

my friendly local game store started an event Friday nights called RPG roulette to feature non DnD games, I run Numenera, we've had Call of Cthulhu, Unknown Armies, Avatar the Last Airbender, Dragonbane, and many others. I've completely ditched DnD in my home campaign and have been running Vaesen, Dragonbane, and Badgequest and my players are having the most fun they've ever had playing rpgs.

As a new GM I refused to run d&d right out of the gate. My players that had a history with d&d were hesitant but quickly changed their mind once we played our first session of EZD6. I'm currently running a campaign with the Black Sword Hack and it's been great so far. I'll also be running a one shot soon using Mazes. The world outside d&d is so rich and passionate, you owe it to yourself and your players to run some of these fantastic games.

@jedbex7070

8 ай бұрын

What’s EZD6?

D&D definitely brought loads of nerds together in the 70s and 80s. I was in the UK, so we bought it from Games Workshop, which brought us to shelves full of Call of Cthulhu, Traveller etc… Now, I'm absolutely with you. Too much rent seeking FKery.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

That magazine was THE best!

@Wraithing

8 ай бұрын

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I'm almost positive Deathbringer enjoyed looking at the pictures of his older cousin, Thrud the Barbarian!!

@legionarybooks13

8 ай бұрын

"Rent seeking FKery." - Hope you don't mind if I pinch this line. 😁

@Wraithing

8 ай бұрын

​@@legionarybooks13 Let's put it in the Creative Commons! 😉

@simontmn

8 ай бұрын

Yeah, I use Dragonbane now for my new campaigns. Players IME aren't fussed, they just want to play.

I stopped playing role playing games a few years into 3rd edition. All these years later it was 5th edition that brought me back, and reminded me why I love these games so much.

Introduced a friend who had never roleplayed before to Call of Cthulhu about two years ago and he got hooked after the first session. He is now playing in my Vampire the Masquerade campaign and loving every minute of it. Sometimes the newest players turn out to be the most enthusiastic ones.

It's interesting to watch a game go from entry point to the hobby, turn into an inclusive and welcoming community, getting turned into an exclusive members only club where you can't leave without losing everything you've gained.

@cattrucker8257

8 ай бұрын

TTRPGs somehow ended up being Hotel California all along. Mostly thanks to corporate greed, it would seem.

@pccleric

8 ай бұрын

It was always inclusive in welcoming we just didn't need a damn separate flag for it

@prestonmolloy808

8 ай бұрын

Not just in this, but consumers have allowed suppliers to sell them literally nothing.

I think it's more a gateway than ever with the internet. I started D&D in the late '80s and that's all I had access to - it was all the local book store stocked, and it was all the local comic book shop had, and it was the only thing people at that shop played. What really was the "gateway" to other systems for me were online communities. "Nerd" culture back in the day wasn't evenly distributed.

Games used to be about the hangout with your gaming buddies and you'd just play whatever. The game was just an excuse to get together. But now, friend groups in general a thing of the past and it's all about the game itself and finding people who want to play that specific one. It's not the best change, but hey, it's what we've got. The game's the thing, and that's what's driving everything now. You would think the epidemic of loneliness would motivate everyone to find friends and form those groups again but, for a lot of reasons, there seems to be a negative feedback loop that is driving everyone apart even more.

@Brenthias

8 ай бұрын

Agreed. Unfortunate, but very true.

@evant1166

8 ай бұрын

I find players with this outlook to be generally unpleasant company, sure, some tables are excuses to hang out, but some of us do genuinely enjoy the hobby, if you play games just as an excuse to hangout with friends you may as well just skip the prep work and go to the mall instead of slowing down someone's table, it's genuinely frustrating to play with people who don't particularly care about the game.

@tuomasronnberg5244

8 ай бұрын

​@@evant1166 Agreed. For my circle of friends playing the game was always the main attraction, and if we wanted to hang out then we could do that after the game or on a separate occasion. I've never understood the mindset of people who are too cool to admit liking roleplaying games and pretend that they're there just to hang out while their friends play their nerd game.

@benxavier3723

8 ай бұрын

"The game was just an excuse to get together" Perhaps we should be asking why we ever needed an 'excuse' to get together to begin with?

@Xplora213

8 ай бұрын

Rough feedback for the op. Males need activities to bond together. RPGs is just one. Football is another. Fishing is another. That’s how males bond. As you get older you’re less concerned about excuses to bond. You focus on the activity.

Wow, at 9:30 you said exactly what I jumped the gun in at 5:20. I’m glad to see we are of like minds, and you are one of the only truly large audiences OSR / Indy KZreadrs putting out this message.

I thought your point about how a lot of the games are works of art was a great point. There really is something to be said about paying a little bit more and receiving a quality product. Part of my enjoyment with newer games is the amount of work and care that goes into making a great product. Even with systems that I wouldn't play, it's enjoyable to go through some of these books just for the presentation, things to steal for my own games, ideas, etc. I'm also a fan of the boxed set. It's my favorite format: rulebooks, adventures, maps, dice...everything you need, and with a quality boxed set, it's a joy every time you open it up.

Yes! Dragonbane Shoutout. Been loving this fun system. We are all new guys to this system and no issues. Dont let the duck confuse you, we just had a death against some village thugs. Weapons do lots of damage and low HP. Best part is monsters have an attack matrix instead of just back and forth attacks

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

A review is coming.

D&D was a gateway for me. I decided to start GMing when I saw Wizard's decisions. I also spotted issues with the mechanics as a new DM. ( I brought them up to a game designer friend and apparently, these mechanics aren't good, even though they are extremely important to the game. There has been an issue with them for a long time.) I'm now running Candela Obscura for conventions. I've also talked to local game store employees and people on the internet about the game. I'm happy to report that I've gotten creators/presidents of conventions to either commit to buying the game or to check it out. The local game stores I've talked to have chosen to stock several Candela Obscura books on their shelves. Will my efforts make a huge difference? Probably not, but if other people do the same as I did, we will see more people try different systems.

Johan Egerkrans does all the art for an entire RPG book? Now that's fancy!!

When I started running Troika! I found people that were RPG curious and pitched it to them. Some of them stuck around, others didn't, but I definitely built a group that's open to other games.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Cool!

It really *is* up to the GMs. I started with D&D like virtually everyone I know, but I moved on fairly quick when Shadowrun came out. I jumped into various other games like GURPS, Cyberpunk, TMNT, Marvel Super Heroes, Villains and Vigilantes, the World of Darkness games, and more. A few years back, I felt some nostalgia for D&D, but when I did, I picked up OSE. Then your channel introduced me to ICRPG and I grabbed Shadowdark when it was announced. As a GM, I don't see any reason to run D&D and have no desire to do so. If someone needs a GM and they ask me, I'll happily run one of the many other great systems.

@MP-uw1qc

8 ай бұрын

I agree it is down to the GM to expose players to other worlds and systems, and if you are a player that is interested in a new game then take the opportunity to GM it for others. Recently I have run Liminal and A Song of Ice and Fire, and my players typically don’t have the books but that is fine as you do not need them to be players. The GM is there to explain the rules and have fun while the players have fun and focus on their players and the adventures you form together.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Those are GREAT games made by GREAT people.

On the note of the Spanish RPG community, Sweden almost had a similar fate. It had a very solid foundation with a post-apoc and fantasy game running a license of the Chaosium BRP rule system since the early 1980's, but it was facing a severe decline in popularity 2005-2015. What saved it might just have been Free League, and they are also coincidentally well-known international contributors to the gaming scene. One wonders if they would have made such strides and preserved the Swedish scene if it hadn't made the leap to make English editions of their games.

Fun fact; Monopoly, the game owned now by Hasbro, was first published in 19th century London and was called 'Landlord'. The board layout is basically the same, except that instead of landing on a Hotel or Railroad, and get rich, you always, ALWAYS, land on a space where the Landlord takes some of your money. Yes, the game was really only illustrating the unfairness of the game the real life landlords were playing. You play, you lose.

Very interesting take (and one I agree with). My friends and I (in early high school) got into the idea of roleplaying by just writing on paper, an ongoing battle between one another (represented by our favorite anime, comic book or other hero). I bring this up because we would simultaneously play the part of DM and player, and we found this caused us to both discuss each others expectations and be judicious in what we wrote, which in turn helped us come to resolutions very quickly. I suppose what I am implying is that: If D&D is a monopoly (which again, I agree it is), there is more potential for both new and existing players to get stuck in the mode of thinking that says, "This is how the game is played and can only be played this way.". I don't believe this is conducive to promoting more creative approaches to resolving conflict in D&D games that are played RAW.

It's obviously captured the vast majority of the market share. That doesn't make it a classic monopoly though. It's more like the BigBox Store of TTRPGs.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Thanks for taking the time out of your busy day to share. Much appreciated!

I am glad Dungeon Crawl Classics was mentioned. I have also played Legends of the Flame Princess which is incredibly gritty.

I want a sticker that says “put the MASTER back in Dungeon Master”

Your comment about "Phil" is on point! I'm grateful that my players are stoked for me to run games I'm stoked with - they've let me explore so many rulesets and I've never encountered the "We only play D&D" attitude. (We just started an EZD6 game last weekend - this is our eighth system in two years!)

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

THAT. IS. AWESOME!!!

@TatumVayavananda

8 ай бұрын

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Thank you for all that you do!

I've made my foray into game design with a few dead projects & now one I plan to release & I often feel conflicted. I'm so glad to have players that are willing to suffer my prototypes, one of these days I'll release somethin'!

@RobertWF42

8 ай бұрын

Cool - is it a fantasy rpg?

@FriendlyNeighbourhoodSkumbag

8 ай бұрын

@@RobertWF42 sort of, there's fantastical elements & the world is quite fantastical, but there's no overt magic or spellcasting

Thank you so much for not only bringing sound & founded critique to the table, but offering great alternatives as well.

I found your channel about a month ago, doing some research for writing my own Halloween one shot, and I found your philosophy on rules so refreshing. Unfortunately as someone introduced to dnd through dnd beyond I've never heard of any of the alternative rulesets you mentioned here, but your recommendation has me intrigued. Ty for yet another learning experience professor.

If a GM does not want to run D&D every session then that group of players are either going to play other RPG games and systems, going to skip those sessions or have to look for a new GM. Most likely that group of players will play the new and different RPG games and system instead of skipping sessions or having to put the effort into finding a new GM and fully giving up on that group. If someone goes to a nightclub it is the DJ that controls what is played at that nightclub. Yes, they can take requests if they want too, but at the end of the day the people at the the nightclub are either going to dance to the music or not. So if the DJ wants to introduce new music to their set it is up to them to do just that. Now if the that night is has specific theme or genre of music them it is up to the DJ to slowly find ways to introduce new music which is outside of the genre of music, but will most likely still fit the feel and vide of it.

@Vedexent_

8 ай бұрын

That's a really great analogy.

We are leaning hard into Shadowdark. "The more wotc and hasbro tighten their grip, the more other games will slip through their fingers"

Great, i was waiting for this all the morning!

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Thanks! I appreciate your viewership!

I think one way is, as a DM, start to introduce the best rules from other systems into your D&D game. Start giving them items from other games that do cool shit. They might start to be less interested in all the things the expensive D&D books say they can do, and more interested in the creative stuff you throw at them. If you can make that wedge, you can start to pull them away.

It was a gateway for me, but certainly isn’t for others. Truth is, it takes a significant amount of effort to learn rules of a different system. Even the ones with lighter rules, then tend to require more creativity to compensate, which is another skill entirely. I enjoy that and am willing to learn and try new systems. I also don’t feel too bought into D&D to the point where it’s a sunk cost. Others might though

@pietrayday9915

8 ай бұрын

It was a gateway for me, too... might have been a matter of being in the right place at the right time: I was there in the '80s and '90s at a point where TSR started trying to smother the competition out, with a GM who actually had given a number of other games a chance and was willing to experiment, and had been there earlier in earlier D&D history at a point where a lot more improvisation on the rules was needed to make everything work. I joined the group for D&D, but stayed for a chance to play 'Call of Cthulhu', 'Shadowrun', 'Paranoia', 'Alien', 'Vampire: The Masquerade', 'Battletech'/'Mechwarrior', and dozens of home-brewed games and settings. It seems strange to me today that there are entire groups of role-players who had never heard of those other games, let alone were willing to try them! I think I can see the sunk-cost thing in effect for D&D gamers not just with the weird online subscription schemes, but also with the vast number of books that get released for each new edition: they all complain and growl about it, but also get excited to try the Latest Thing, and sooner or later everyone's buying up all the new books so they aren't left out when everyone else adopts the new edition, and then they've spent so much money on building up the new library of books that it's hard to justify trying something else. It's a damned shame, too, since most of the smaller/indie RPGs give you almost everything you need in one core rulebook (except of course dice, paper, and pencils) - the cost of trying something besides D&D is pretty low, especially today when there are decades of smaller RPG books available on your favorite auction sites, and lots of games even available for free in a world where you can download a free RPG rule set any time you like, then go to Project Gutenberg (for example) to read up on public-domain classic pulp literature for the game's "fluff": there's no reason for that sunk-cost to exist, except to line Wizards' pockets while following a herd!

@Xplora213

8 ай бұрын

There is a massive sunk cost but we are assuming that the rules don’t translate easily and that players are interested in using the game mechanics more than playing pretend. If you’re trying to be Indiana Jones , your system is a quiet second place to the game. While there are tons of autists who are obsessed with numbers. It’s part of the game but those people have a hard time justifying their loyalty to a company who clearly hates them and their precious system (which is why they come out with new editions lol😅). Push forward.

@daviamorim

8 ай бұрын

Players don't have to know all the rules in order to play. They only need to know the general resolution mechanic and whatever is specific to their character. Everything else is up to the GM. The players will pick up other stuff as they go. My group is made almost entirely of gaming noobs and we change systems often, and it works fine. They tell me what they want to do, I tell them what to roll.

@masternerf99

8 ай бұрын

I'm a big fan of older editions of D&D, and I have sunk some cash into it. However I don't feel like that's why I keep playing it. D&D is my fantasy RPG. If I want cyberpunk, I reach for Cyberpunk 2020, or Traveller for space, etc.

I think there is a chance for a rpg to reach beyond just D&D, if the biggest influencers in the sector regularly play a different game. Critical Role has already started, and I love what they have done with Candela Obscure. But the almighty algorithm also needs to push this less mainstream content, and creators need to stick with it, even if their content gets fewer views. Content creation, algorithm, and viewers can quickly become a self-reinforcing spiral, in which only the most popular content is created and consumed. That's one of the reasons I love your channel because you keep reviewing small indy games and keep making labor intensive videos like the Forbidden City, even though they don't get as many views as a quick and easy video on WotC and D&D. Keep up the good work!

@danrimo826

8 ай бұрын

Dimension20 is regularly switching up their game systems now too

Thank you for the recommendation for Crown and Skull. I wasn't aware of it, but now I'm really interested in what it can bring to the table.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Ground breaking. Review soon. One of my players play tested it and she loved it.

When I was in college, one of my friends tried to introduce me to Savage Worlds, but all I wanted to play at the time was dnd. Now, 12 years later, Savage Worlds is my favorite system to run and play.

If I were ever to produce and sell my game work, I’d be happy if I made enough to cover the food while I was working on the game. The knowledge that people were playing my game somewhere and having a good time would be amazing. That’s the kind of love these indie creators have, and WotC/Hasbro lost that a long time ago.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Thanks for sharing.

My experience is that D&D has been a monopoly for awhile. I was blessed that early on in my time in the hobby the game master flitted from system to system so I got a broader background and to this day I still try to pour some of my money into other systems. I'm blessed to have players that currently enjoy trying a new system and a new campaign probably means we're using a different rule set. The only players I've had that refuse to play anything but 5e have left because we are not the group for them.

I listen to an actual-play podcast called Firebreathing Kittens that used to play only D&D, but after the OGL debacle, they switched over to playing different RPGs. Some people left but a lot of new people joined in. I think they would have stayed with D&D if not for the OGL stuff, so it's interesting to see how some long time players took that as a signal for departure and others have kept going with D&D despite that.

Excellent video. This is your bag. Bravo on mentioning the latest KickStarter. You seem like a good bloke, keep it up.

I saw the Roll for combat video you were a guest on. On the subject of D&D monopolizing shelf space, the counter he made was that there's infinite shelf space, so they don't have a monopoly. The fallacy of that argument is that the in a digital marketplace, perhaps more so than any time in history, it's not about the shelf space, but whether or not your product can be discovered in an endless sea of options. And the Monopoly that is won there is by the purchase of advertising. And in that, small and independent developers have little to no purchasing power. Inferior products often win simply because better products cannot compete for the attention of the customer.

@LeFlamel

8 ай бұрын

Yeah, not a monopoly though. Just bad taste on the part of the consumer.

@genera1013

8 ай бұрын

​@@LeFlamelHow can it be a matter of taste if you can't even find other games?

@heliomachit5651

8 ай бұрын

DnD is easily a monopoly by market share. That's why WoTC feels comfortable raising prices, it's why they tried to push the OGL 2.0

@LeFlamel

8 ай бұрын

@@genera1013 you can. You just have to look. Advertising works because people don't look very hard. How many times do you go past the first page of search results? Doesn't mean anything after that is hard to access. People blame companies but in some situations they should just blame stupid consumer choices.

It's been a gateway for most people I've ever introduced to D&D, and I think it'll continue to be. Far from being a time when D&D is able to strengthen its monopoly, I think it's bound to become weaker: the internet is simply too strong at introducing players to other games whether on KZread or elsewhere.

That quote at the beginning was exactly right. And to continue the food analogy, when traveling, I want something good. Why would I get major chain fast food that tastes exactly the same as what I can get at the house? Why not find something local and much more satisfying. It's the same with table top rpgs.

I enjoyed your call to arms at the end of the video. You’ll be happy to know that my regular group of players were all complete newbies three years ago and the campaign is still going. I’m also starting a second group of less experienced players in Shadowdark this week.

The "gateway" idea only works if your players skew younger. High school is the ideal time for this, IMO. Once a group transitions to full time jobs and eventually fully formed families, willingness to experiment becomes near 0. I love collecting systems and learning them, but my group just doesn't have the time; we either learn or play. With DnD we can just play faster, and that seems the biggest barrier to entry.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Interesting. I never thought about that.

@tubebubereboot6873

8 ай бұрын

You need to learn the rules, yes. But them? They can just roll dice, ask questions, and declare actions. You tell them if they can do what they want, where on the character sheet their stats are, and what dice they need to roll, if they even need to. Character creation taking forever? Give them pre-gens that suit their play styles, or ask what kind of characters they'd like to play, then give them pre-gens like that. After they've played enough, if and when they want to know more, provide that information. Hell, you don't even need to know all the rules for even complex RPGs in order run them. Just the basics. If they ask about a mechanic you're unsure of, wing it then look that up later. If you feel you must, despite how this idea angers our dear professor, google it, since that's usually faster than looking rules up in the book. But, if you stick with only one system, you are training your players to only like that, which sets an expectation that "new" is "bad". Every new game will be a learning process, yes, but that's a goal not a problem. Nothing beats seeing your players grow with each fresh experience they could never have had with a different system. It makes for better players with more nuanced tastes. In a metaphor? You're the chef, they're the patrons. They've come to your restaurant to eat. You could only serve a burger and fries with a coke, or you could have a whole menu of options. Which sounds more appealing to both chef and patron? Personally, I'd get pretty bored with only one thing. Sure you'd need to learn to prepare more dishes, and they'd have to get used to trying new things, some of which they may not like, but in the end wouldn't everyone prefer more choices?

@Vedexent_

8 ай бұрын

@@tubebubereboot6873 100% this. If they like the system, they'll absorb it through play as well.

@arcanecontent

8 ай бұрын

In the same boat. I understand that time is an important factor in the equation, but I think it is doable. I am going to condense and teach a new ttrpg system to a former player of wfrp, who is definitely working overtime and doesn't have the time to learn new systems. I am going to condense it so that he can learn it quickly over a span of an evening or two (when we can play over discord). First session is just going to be him and me, to explain the basics and my setting and the second is going to be actual play.

DnD, especially today, is the Windows of roleplaying games. Everyone else combined is Linux. No one has heard of it, often works better and without the blue screens of death, but no one uses it or builds programs for it outside of niche programmers, and so you end up buying another windows pc so you can at least do something

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Thanks for commenting. I appreciate it.

@BanjoSick

8 ай бұрын

Free League is Apple then, haha. Stylish and expensive

@ratatatuff

8 ай бұрын

@@BanjoSick No, Free League is definitely not Apple. If that were the case you wouldn't be allowed to run your own campaign with their system. Not even allowed to make your own characters. You'd have to buy pregens in their store ...

@ratatatuff

8 ай бұрын

That's not true anymore. Unless you need a computer for audio editing and recording Linux works just fine. There is plenty of consumer level software on Linux.

@BanjoSick

8 ай бұрын

@@ratatatuff yeah, I get what you mean but Free league is certainly the company that sells you everything as an extra item (maps, cards, dice) and asks high prices for it. They have this very polished look about their products as well with an eye for what ttrpg hipsters want.

Continue to love your content, looking forward to more. Always good to see that Deathbringer is keeping busy.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

He never stops getting into trouble.

Hasbro didn't have to fork out all that money buying D&D Beyond to ensure that the vast majority of D&D Players would be ignorant of the existence of other games. The vast majority I have interacted with have expressed they weren't aware other games exist and some seemed shocked to find out other RPGs exist.

This is an awesome topic. And honestly, right now I think the answer is both. D&D is absolutely a monopoly. It has a huge market share. It is basically synonymous with TTRPGs in some parts of the world the way "Coke" is with Sodapop. But because of that it can also be a gateway. Hell, I'm only a regular viewer of your amazing content - and content like other channels like Dungeon Masterpiece - because I got back into D&D with 5e. And lots of people do come into the hobby through D&D, find another game, and break off to that. Hell, Pathfinder is Pathfinder specifically because they struck with the right timing and hacked a chunk off the monolith that is D&D to make their own community. With the OGL debacle, and with big 3rd party content creators like Kobold Press, Critical Role, MCDM, and others all making their own games we have a real chance to see just how successul those companies can be at taking a chunk out of WOTC - and on the inverse, how successful WOTC is at holding onto their customers. That said, as good as it can be for those players to find other games, D&D IS a monopoly. It is the ancient red dragon in this equation, and the rest of us are lucky to be level 5 if even that high. While it is possible for some to benefit from that, it is likely doing just as much damage in others - especially as they try to build that walled garden. It's not like a megacorp like Hasbro has ever made a decision with the consumers and communities their product is part of in mind. That's not how capitalism is played. Would love a return of the late 80s/early 90s when other games were flourishing. One right now, just after 5e has done such a great job of growing the market and helped make RPGs mainstream, would be one of the best chances TTRPGs have to cement their place as a mainstream hobby while breaking the D&D monopoly down to a more manageable size. But you don't kill a mega-boss like that with one blow. Even if Hasbro is determined to run themselves into the ground, we also need those indie games - and especially the indie darlings - to be welcoming to people looking to try things other than D&D. And not just insulting people for liking the game that got them into the hobby. I think your channel does a great job of that.

@DoubleSupercool

8 ай бұрын

They are the biggest player. They aren't a monopoly. There are literally thousands of other options for anyone to easily buy.

@Deliriumend

8 ай бұрын

@@DoubleSupercool just ignoring the part of the definition where a significant enough market share also denotes a monopoly are we? Bold move.

@DoubleSupercool

8 ай бұрын

No. That's not enough *in an of itself* to make a business a monopoly. It's not a bold move. I used to be a senior investigator for anti-trust for a federal government agency@@Deliriumend

Given that most of the products I see Kickstarted or what not tout being 5e compatible or the like, I would say it is not great for the genre as it makes new games cleave too much to the core idea.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Interesting observation.

I started seriously playing D&D about 4-ish years ago (GMing for half of that) and just recently the group I started with have moved on to pathfinder. I told them "Hey, I'm all burntout on D&D and I don't want to play it anymore. I'll be willing to GM pf if you're willing to play otherwise I'm gonna sit on the sidelines." luckily this was during the OGL debacle so it really warmed them up to the idea and currently, I'm enjoying myself with our game sessions and I want to give other games a try.

Our DM recently ran a different TTRPG. I can’t remember the name of it but it was good. I preferred D&D though. I have a connection with the character in this particular campaign. I enjoy playing this character more than any other character I’ve ever played. I even built my dice tower based on this character. He is a noble, barbarian, centaur who collects the heads of his enemies.

It’s certainly becoming a gateway for me and my group. Told them I was fed up with 5E and gave them a list of the ones I’m interested in running.

@abrarfarhan9344

8 ай бұрын

which ones do you feel like running?

@thelaughingman4791

8 ай бұрын

Same, we discussed some options and we decided we will be starting a Deadlands campaign in two weeks 🤗 Has your group decided on a game?

@LevantineR1

8 ай бұрын

My D&D table has become a revolving door of games and people taking turns running their games. I'm the last D&D DM there, and even then, I've been looking back at 4e more than I've been looking at 5e when designing encounters and traps.

@InternetHydra

8 ай бұрын

That’s the correct way of doing things that moralists recoil from but can’t compete with. If players say “we just want dnd”, tell them “tough”. Force the matter.

@Tony_Goat

8 ай бұрын

​@@InternetHydraI tried this once. OpenLegend might've been fun but if everyone wants 5e, they'll play a 5e game with or without you.

I've always played DND, but I'm trying out Cairn soon.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Cairn is a lot of fun.

I agree the renaissance of TTRPGs is coming. I'm really looking forward to the Dungeon Coach's DC20 system!

9:44 Great advice, I would love to DM with newbies! We always remember our first campaigns... good times 😊

Good video Professor. I think you're dead on with most points but missing one big item that works against D&D. They'll get lazy. You show 3 starter boxes and point out that D&D's is mostly air. Hasbro 'could' pack that box with value like Paizo has done, and chose not to. They've given content-heavy starters in the past. They couldn't be bothered now. That's going to bite them in the end. They'll lessen the value of products bit by bit; we've seen it with Spelljammer already, until they release something so egregious that fans revolt (which we know they will!!!) While we wait for this, it's up to the community to promote options. The big hurdle is so much being online instead of in person.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

The worm has turned. Wait until NEXT week's video.

D&D was definitely a gateway for me. By the mid-'80s, we were also playing other games. By the '90s, we had largely moved past D&D. But it pulled me back a little for 3.5 and then 5E. But I can't follow the WOTC path anymore, so now I think I'm on the other side of the wall they created and don't ever plan on trying to get back. C&C and WFRP have all I need to satisfy my fantasy RPG needs.

I greatly appreciate your advocating for indie games and indue publishing

Man I need to start a gaming group at my church. So many people there I think would love playing TTRPGs if they were introduced to it! Plus, grows the community!

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Yes! I run in a church myself.

There are lots of people (like me) who started playing in the 80s when there was only D&D and our hobby is D&D not RPGs. I think this is a gap in people’s understanding of the hold D&D has on the market. Now my definition of D&D is pretty broad. I don’t just mean 5e. I don’t even play 5e anymore. I went back to 1e.

Once again, Professor, you have superbly and concisely explained and explored this topic. You are the beacon of light, granting inspiration to us all. Thank you!

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Wow, thank you!

Great video, thank you. In my experience players are curious to try new things and after a few sessions they’ll tell you what they like and dislike

I ran a Shadow of the Demon Lord game for people at the local comic shop. They loved it so much that they want to do a full on campaign with it.

@n4tune8

8 ай бұрын

This warms my heart. That system deserves to be known far and wide, if only to inspire others with awesome game mechanics. The setting might not be my cup of tea, but the rules are beautiful.

Hey man I know you're chasing views but the constant WOTC "controversy" coverage is so boring and such a turn off

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

I follow views. Over the last month I did a slap chop video. Result=10k views. Covered the new Gary Gygax release. 20k views. I did a 30 minute Lost City play-through with Bob World Builder. 50k (not bad). The last WoTC video? 200K views. You may be bored, but you watched and left a comment. If you like my other videos, please share them.

@kennethmcgovern3739

Ай бұрын

I disagree. I think this is a legitimate point and worth having the consumers consider.

Dude you hate wizards and modern D&D so much, why don't you cover other rpgs and make more positive content? Leave them do their thing, its not going to change, your videos aren't going to change Hasbro's CEOs hunger for money. But you can change your audience by showing different systems, or even creating your own. I really like you, but 90% of your videos are negative comments about dungeons and dragons.

@andys.3594

8 ай бұрын

Well deserved negative comments about D&D IMO.

@alaskaaa684

8 ай бұрын

@@andys.3594 well of course, but you didn`t seem to get my point. I`m not defending Wizards or DnD, I`m just saying there`s only so much you can do when all you do is talk about negative things.

On the topic of running games that are not D&D. Earlier this year I decided to bring a whole bunch of virgin TTRPG gamers Into my own home brewed index card RPG, thanks to the recommendation of this channel. It was a blast and I am happy to do my part

I'm eternally grateful that I held on to my first and second edition stuff

This seems like way too much of a hard sell at this point. Informing players about game options is one thing, but you're starting to sound like a broken record.

The only control we have is to vote with our feet.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

True. And people are doing that. Watch tomorrow's video. D&D is in a slump.

I’m dropping by to let you know last night I ran a game using many of the Index Card RPG rules you introduced me to and it was a huge success! Thanks! And cheers for better games!

They aren't aiming for full walled garden, but they are banking on sunk costs

Watched the vid earlier scrolling through and saw it again, good thing I had forgotten to comment.

OMG I need that Deathbringer Mini!!!!

Finally got them to try Mork Borg. So far so good. They were so fatalistic walking into the accursed den but soon found out everything sucks in a smooth and fashionable way...and 6 hit points is plenty.

Best call to action EVER and yeah, I've replaced many players who got stuck on D&D because even when it is D&D it's still not because I've modded the heck out of it.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

Thank you. That means a lot to me.

Great point on new player experience and bringing in new players. Sunk cost fallacy is so real

I recall a number of mods of early D&D, things like the Arduan Grimoire, that first sophisticated our games, and then served as models for our own innovations. So, while we need to keep checking out the new games, hacking and subverting D&D is a time-honoured tradition: it must be upheld :D

"Either Phil will come correct, or you're going to have a new, more cooperative player shortly." Wow, the Prof hit hard this time! lol, love it!

One of the ways WotC helped, in the past, with making D&D a gateway to other TTRPGs was producing TTRPGs other than D&D, like d20 Modern and Star Wars d20/Saga. My first real non-D&D games were both d20 Modern and Star Wars Saga, and they ushered me into the vibrant creative space outside of D&D.

Black Sword Hack is being held back by only being printed in the UK. The book costs over 50 bucks due to shipping.

I've been sitting on Black Sword Hack... I may need to run it!

"High tide lifts all boats" sounds a lot like trickle-down economics...

💯 The GM doesn't ask or suggest what to play next. We pick, and the players can join or not.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

8 ай бұрын

I DO ask occasionally, but usually when we're taking a break from the regular campaign.

I concur and have begun running Masks of Nyarlathotep with one of my groups. They were reluctant but they’re now loving it.

6:00 In 1982 Star Frontiers was my “gateway drug” to D&D. 😂

I started playing Dragonbane (Drakar och Demoner) in 1983 and my group shifted over to Different verisons of D&D in the later 80s. And now With the latest version of Dragon bane we are back playing it, and haven´t played D&D for over two years!

2nd edition AD&D was my gateway into the hobby. Playing dragonlance, forgotten realms and planescape. I have yet to have that wow feeling I felt then with D&D current incarnation. I have felt that wow feeling with old school essentials/dolmenwood, shadowdark, mork borg, DCC, and so many more!