Thanks to everyone who added some discussion about the M97 not being so reliable in the trenches due to the poor quality paper cartridges. Also thank you to anyone who pointed out I mislabeled "The Professionals" as the "The Wild Bunch." I'm a team of one so I usually have an editing mistake or four. I greatly appreciate all the sharing of knowledge by everyone on this channel.

@Lomi311

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for making this content! There’s a great C&Rsenal vid on this gun. I’d suggest them for quick research on anything WW1 era. m.kzread.info/dash/bejne/oYaD1tabg87Hqbg.html

@dennisyoung4631

2 жыл бұрын

Hence use of all-brass shells in ww1 and ww2?

@ElmoUnk1953

2 жыл бұрын

Sorry, I’d already posted by the time I saw your comment. Great video!

@viciousvictortee1298

2 жыл бұрын

I caught 1 or 2 l. Respect.

@TheJarric

Жыл бұрын

@@dennisyoung4631 they had paper ones early on in ww1 not sure if they corrected it by war time

Fun fact: ww1 soldiers hated the thing. Being used mostly by sportsmen pre-war, shotgun shells were mostly made of paper products, not plastic like later shells. So in the trenches of ww1, ammunition was not durable. In ww2, many soldiers loved the shotgun.

@carlorrman8769

2 жыл бұрын

Great show as usual. In relation to the comment about shells made with paper. An old mate of mine, sadly passed now, told me of similar experiences in the Malayan emergency.

@JohnnyJohnsonEsq

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for highlighting this much appreciated 🙏

@tomvogt5988

2 жыл бұрын

The paper shells before 1917 were impregnated with a wax so they really weren't as bad as some say. They did have some problems because in hotter climates the wax would get soft. After 1917 the government changed to the brass case with the 00.

@kiwigrunt330

2 жыл бұрын

Indeed, the gun was very popular with raiding parties AND in dry conditions. When rain/mud prevailed, many troops stopped using it. By the time brass shells finally arrived, the war was over. A bit like the BAR...

@aleksihamalainen9229

2 жыл бұрын

Magazine tube filled with the wet cardboard, mushy gun powder and lead pellets

During the fighting in the Southern Philippines islands between 1899-1912, American troops found themselves outmatched by the sheer tenacity of the native Moro tribesmen, who would bind their limbs before battle, attacking in reproduction Spanish iron breastplates with wild battle cries, they could shrug off hits from 38.caliber rounds. The U S Army began looking for heavier hitting weapons (leading to the eventual adoption of the 45. caliber round but that's a different story) and found one in the 1897 Winchester. It was so well regarded for it's effectiveness in combat that General Pershing, who had first hand experience with them, ordered the wrapons brought to Europe when he took command of the American Exbiditionary Force in Europe in 1917.

@williamlydon2554

2 жыл бұрын

It also does appear with it's Bayonet affixed, in the horror anthology series "Tales from the Crypt" in a 1991 episode set during WW1. kzread.info/dash/bejne/aZ2Crq18mN3fn5M.html

@warpartyattheoutpost4987

2 жыл бұрын

@@williamlydon2554, thanks for the link! I'm gonna watch it now, I love "Tales from the Crypt"! I also love the .45, that's what my concealed carry weapon is chambered in.

@dukecraig2402

2 жыл бұрын

Model 1897 shotguns procured during the Phillipine Campaign were not official military issue, they were purchased privately by individual soldiers and sometimes with unit funds. General Pershing first had pump shotguns issued to troops during the time he spent chasing Poncho Villa around in Mexico in 1916, although not with the bayonet lug/handguard adaptor. Once he was named commander of the American Expeditionary Force for the US's involvement in WW1 he task shotgun manufacturers with outfitting pump shotguns with a way to mount a bayonet and have a heatshield to protect the shooters off-hand from being burned by a hot barrel during bayonet exercises. Not mentioned in this video is the other type of pump shotgun that saw service in WW1 alongside the Model 1897 Winchester in both trench and riot configurations, the Model 10 Remington, it had a bayonet lug very similar to the Winchester's but instead of having a perforated metal handguard that was riveted directly to the bayonet lug it had a wooden handguard, the backside of the bayonet lug had a sheet metal piece on it that had a lip that the front of the wooden handguard fit into in a very similar manner to how the front of the handguard of a M1903 or M1917 rifle fits into it's front band, this makes sense since Remington was making the M1917 rifle (previous to that the P14 British version) and would naturally fashion fitting a handguard onto a shotgun in a manner they were already doing. Model 10 Remington trenchguns that are intact are exceedingly rare, it was found during the war that the wooden handguard's on them broke far more easily than the metal ones on the Winchester's so after the war Army Depots usually cut the barrels off of them even with where the backside of the bayonet lug thus making them into strictly riot guns for MP and guard duty use, along with them being surplused out to prisons and police forces. Also not mentioned in this video is the fact that both of the types of trenchguns used the US 1917 bayonet that fit the M1917 rifle and not the M1905 bayonet that fit the M1903 rifle, it was deemed that since ⅔rds of the troops would actually have the M1917 rifle as opposed to the M1903 and since Winchester and Remington were both already making the M1917 bayonet because they were both making the M1917 rifle it made more sense to use it on the shotguns. As late as the Vietnam War the US government still was having new production M1917 style bayonets made for service since even the trenchguns made during WW2 still mounted the M1917 bayonet.

@dukecraig2402

2 жыл бұрын

@@williamlydon2554 Good eye and I remember seeing that episode when it came out. However that particular Model 97 is incorrect for being in WW1, it's a WW2 manufactured Winchester 97. For WW1 Model 1897 Winchester shotguns were procured in 2 forms, "trenchguns" which were made on solid frame receivers and standard police "riot guns" which were built on take down receivers that were used for guard duty and not front line use, trenchguns were actually built on standard police riot gun solid frame actions since the bayonet lug/handguard assembly negated the take down feature. By WW2 Winchester no longer offered Model 97's with the solid frame receiver so all WW2 era Model 97 trenchguns were made on take down receivers even though once again the take down feature is negated once a bayonet lug/handguard assembly is mounted. The shotgun in that show is a take down receiver which makes it a WW2 produced Model 97, also during WW1 the correct name was Winchester Model 1897, by WW2 Winchester had shortened it to just Model 97.

The reason I've heard as to why the German Empire protested American combat use of the shotgun was because of contemporary German aristocracy's perception of shotguns; namely, as a sporting tool solely for hunting game. To an aristocratic commander, it could've been perceived that American soldiers saw Germans as little more than game animals to be shot for sport

@thecamocampaindude5167

Жыл бұрын

Oh i just thought that it was just very violent for wounds

@some_humvee8466

Жыл бұрын

They're not game animals?

@mnguy98

Жыл бұрын

@@some_humvee8466 Well yeah, obviously not, but if your only exposure/perception to shotguns was as a tool for hunting game, it wouldn't be that hard to feel extremely disrespected if your enemy started using shotguns against your men

@sovietsnake2729

Жыл бұрын

Not as disrespectful as sparying people with chlorine gas like insects lol

@MrDwarfpitcher

Жыл бұрын

I always thought that it is also quite a bit more of a tool to make one suffer. At range, being hit by a 8mm round from a rifle can kill quickly, but the shotgun will generally hurt but not kill. But I do believe that using poison gas, shrapnel, fire and even blunt force weapons kinda throws the notion of 'clean killing' out the window

Fact: this shotgun was Still in used during the Pacific Campaign in WW2 and also in Europe mainly by Military Police Officers but the Marines and soldiers who used them in the Pacific showed that is very effective in combat

@critterjon4061

2 жыл бұрын

The reason marines used m97 shotguns in ww2 was because the army didn’t want them not because they were necessary that good

@emmanuelperez8094

2 жыл бұрын

@@critterjon4061 Oh I See thanks for the Info dude

@dukecraig2402

2 жыл бұрын

@@critterjon4061 There's absolutely no truth to that whatsoever. The Army and Marine's both used Model 97's along with every other model of civilian produced shotgun that was being made at the outbreak of the war including single shot shotguns that were used for guard duty including guarding ammo stockpiles in war zones. There's examples of all models of pump shotguns that were used by both the Army and Marine's during the war, there's countless pictures of US Army personnel in the Pacific with both WW1 and WW2 vintage produced Model 97 shotguns. Pictures of both Marine's and Army personnel using Model 97's and various other models of pump shotguns in WW2 in both the Pacific and Europe can be found in Bruce Canfield's book A Collector's Guide to U.S. Military Shotguns.

@michaelmetzger7198

2 жыл бұрын

They were quite popular with SOG in Vietnam

@randycheow4268

2 жыл бұрын

But what type of pouches do they use to store the shotgun shells? Is it the standard issue cartridge belt or pouches for shotgun shells since I saw a picture on the internet of a marine wielding a trench gun while wearing a standard issue cartridge belt and another picture of them having some kind of pouch on their belts carrying the shells

As someone else has pointed out, in WW1 the 1897 was actually rather disappointing, for one thing, and one thing alone: Ammo. The paper shells of the time lent poorly to the wet, damp conditions of the trenches, leading to frequent failures. The Brass shells fared better, but they had their own problems.

@MaxwellAerialPhotography

2 жыл бұрын

Too add to this, brass military shotshells weren’t available in any appreciable quantities until the last month or two of the Great War, and even then they had some issues due to rushed manufacturing. It was only by the beginning of the Second World War that brass buckshot military ammo was widely available and totally reliable.

@dukecraig2402

2 жыл бұрын

@@MaxwellAerialPhotography They weren't "rushed into production", full brass length shot shells had been being produced for years before WW1 in all shot sizes from buckshot to birdshot all the way back to the old west, the reason the US Military started out with the wax impregnated paper shells in WW1 is simply because they were cheaper. The main problem with the wax impregnated paper shells wasn't misfires as most people incorrectly assume, the problem was them swelling up in the magazine tube and hanging up in it causing them not to feed, Model 97's whether a trench or riot gun require tools to disassemble the magazine tube prohibiting the user from being able to clear the weapon, once the problem was identified the Army quickly ordered the all brass hull shot shells to remedy the problem, contrary to what some people have written in the comments section of this video the all brass shot shells did see service in France before the end of WW1. As is typical with the Army it quite often forgets the lessons it learned in the previous war and at the beginning of WW2 it made the same mistake by purchasing wax impregnated paper hull shot shells for use, and just like with WW1 as soon as they identified the problem all brass shot shells were procured and rushed into service.

@Gieszkanne

2 жыл бұрын

So nobody had the idea to wax the paper shells?

@dukecraig2402

2 жыл бұрын

@@Gieszkanne They were wax impregnated.

@MaxwellAerialPhotography

2 жыл бұрын

@@dukecraig2402 that only does so much when you are living in a nearly aquatic environment of rain and mud for weeks on end.

Loved how you include the anime desert punk. Still my favorite quote from the show "He's had 308 caliber rifle, rocket, grenade launchers, even a hovercraft over the years but he still wonders around with that old shotgun (1897) and nothing more. Living care free from day to day and nothing else matters."

There’s a scene from Pacific where Pvt. Evans is just eviscerating Japanese soldiers with a trench gun. Definitely a terrifying but effective weapon against banzai charges.

The M-1917 Shotgun (aka the military version of the 1897) used the same M-1917 bayonet as the M-1917 rifle. The blade on this beast is 19"(and change) long! I own both a 1897 & model 12, I prefer the 1897, this thing is built like a tank!! When things started to get scary where one of my nieces lived I sent her a takedown version of the 1897 shotguns with a short barrel, also a mil-spec (GI) M-1911A1, a .357 magnum revolver, a SKS. "For Some Strange Reason" her Ex and his friends stopped bothering her.....

@JohnnyJohnsonEsq

2 жыл бұрын

Lol definitely sends a strong message

@nickolsen316

Жыл бұрын

Badass

@timengineman2nd714

Жыл бұрын

@@nickolsen316 Yes, she is!!! (To protect her two kids, and herself, I doubt there'll be a split second of hesitation before someone gets to see "Momma Bear in all of her glory!")

I have one of these from my grandpa. I think it's the police riot version with shortened barrel and Cutts compensator adjustable choke. It's great for home defense because the thing sounds like a bank vault slamming shut when you cycle it-the last thing any intruder wants to hear.

Fun fact: the term “You can have my gun, when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.” is a popular term that is the reaction of many gun owners in the US to the government gun laws that were imposed. I think the movie “Red Dawn” has a sticker of it at the back of their van.

@iowa_lot_to_travel9471

2 жыл бұрын

Its in the rear window of a pickup truck. Then a 1911 pistol is removed from the hands of a dead civilian

@fredlandry6170

2 жыл бұрын

It was on the bumper sticker of a truck I think as the Soviet Soldier was taking it from the dead man.

@warpartyattheoutpost4987

2 жыл бұрын

Well... they still can't have my gun unless they pry it from my cold dead fingers. Art imitates life.

@AHappyCub

2 жыл бұрын

Which makes no sense since if such uprising occur, they would almost instantly lose since no one in their right mind would support it (at least openly) TL;DR Only idiots would think that a bunch of rebel militia can win against a fully equipped modern army, which more than likely would have some international support

@warpartyattheoutpost4987

2 жыл бұрын

@@AHappyCub... read a history book, kid.

Old school is sometimes the best school to learn from. Love when you share about the classic guns that made a difference.

Very good! You should highlight another iconic American shotgun. Ithaca M37, another John Browning design with several wars and little wars under its belt.

@willpatton7740

Жыл бұрын

in my opinion, the model 37 is the best pump ever made

At my WW1 Reenactment I do twice yearly. The MPs have the Model 1897. They got it from an old Police Station that was closing in the 90s. It was so fun to hold a piece of history.

I was in the 82nd Airborne in the infantry and we were using these (or the hammerless model 1912 version, can't remember) in my unit in Afghanistan still in 2002-2003. The bayonet was so long, it looked like a frickin sword almost. Also, most of us hated shooting them because that thing kicked so hard, the 00 buckshot would turn your shoulder purple after just a few rounds.

The 1897 is just one of those guns that pumps out cool like nothing else. Glad to see you covering it. By the by, I think some of the clips that you used that you labeled as "The Wild Bunch" are actually clips from "The Professionals." One of them is around 3:53 if I'm not mistaken.

@JohnnyJohnsonEsq

2 жыл бұрын

Oops good catch. Still trying to up my editing game 🙏

@tomvogt5988

2 жыл бұрын

Chiquita, hey baby

@dukecraig2402

2 жыл бұрын

Yep, and that solid frame police riot gun that Lee Marvin handles in The Professionals is the cats meow.

By far one of my favorite shotguns. The takedown is great and that unique look just makes it stand out. Amazing shotgun, I love mine.

When I was 15 (65 now) my Dad gave me my '97. It belonged to my Grand dad and it's the only shotgun I have ever used to hunt ducks, geese pheasants, quail, turkey, rabbits, squirrels, woodchucks, about 150 whitetailed deer, a caribou and 56" moose in Alaska. I shot the caribou at 133 yards and the moose at 20 feet as he ran straight at me. I have probably fired thousands of rounds through that gun at this point and have NEVER had a mechanical failure of any sort and have NEVER had the bolt hit my hand either. It is the best shotgun ever made!

@MiishaKorvian

Ай бұрын

I have one that I found used, at a sporting guns store in Davison, Michigan. It's factory riot length, has a reproduction heat-shield/lug, and as non-factory sling on the stock. Serial puts it as 1947, lacks the armory stamp, or any other additional serials numbers. A practice that followed by the Detroit, MI Police Department. I want the bayonet to finish the look that I fell in love with because of the presented Anime "Gunslinger Girl". XD But I can't afford it, reproduction ones are 1.5x the cost of the gun when I got it, don't get me started on originals. But yeah, love it though, I take it rabbit hunting and clay shooting. But while I've not had any mechanical problems, I've bit by the bolt before, I just don't remember how.

@slaphappypappy3782

Ай бұрын

I have. That's why I named mine Ol' Thumbuster. Ya learn real quick to keep a low grip with the right hand!

@MiishaKorvian

28 күн бұрын

@@slaphappypappy3782 ....I'm such a nerd I named mine "Wendy", and legit wrote up the specs for a waifu'd art commission. DX

I was fortunate enough to purchase a 98% Pigeon Grade Trap about 45 years ago. I actually shot some pretty good scores with it back then. 96x100 from the sixteen yard line with modern winchester AA shells. She sure is pretty but doesn't point like my 1960 Model 12 Trap so I never shot more than a few registered ATA shoots with it. It does get a lot of attention when I take it out for a little practice though.

When my uncle passed, I took possession of his firearms until his son could collect them. One was a 30"-barreled '97 that wasn't functional. All it took was some penetrating spray and lube to get it running again, clackety-clack, clackety clack. All solid machined steel.

This is one of the few vintage shotguns that is still favorited by many civilians along with the Browning A5

Just goes to show how reliable and well liked the m97 was, really is a great example of "if it ain't broke don't fix it."

"Alright, I'm Johnny!" will one day become an American classic too! Love it!

Shotguns, in general, are very versatile, being able to shoot everything from birdshot to slugs and even double slugs. Specialty rounds can be fired like flechettes (dozens of dart-shaped projectiles), and dragon's breath.

@diegorincon4673

2 жыл бұрын

Dragons breath is just terrifying. Shooting fire? Goddamn, I think I agree with the Germans.

@djolley61

2 жыл бұрын

@@diegorincon4673 Yeah, more of a novelty, I remember seeing a video where they started a fire and it almost got out of control.

@diegorincon4673

2 жыл бұрын

@@djolley61 was it the FPS Russia one were they accidentally set the hay bales on fire?

@djolley61

2 жыл бұрын

@@diegorincon4673 No, it was in the U.S. somewhere. Been a while since I watched it.

@warpartyattheoutpost4987

2 жыл бұрын

@@djolley61, I had some flechettes. Nasty against soft tissue.

I picked up two 1897 shotguns on two separate occasions for $350 a piece. I left the one with a 30" barrel intact but the shotgun that had been poorly converted to a "trap model" (for trap shooting aficionados), I converted to a riot gun. They're my favorite shotguns and everyone always wants to shoot the riot gun on the range.

Off-topic: I watched the Shadow in the Cloud movie a few days ago; after I watched the B-17 in movies video, and I was surprised by how good this movie is. The main character is badass, the B-17 scenes are realistic; horror, while present, were not enough to give me nightmares; the action is intense, including survival in the aircraft scenes, and many more. The fight near the end is well choreographed and cool. The film is just surprisingly good.

@warpartyattheoutpost4987

2 жыл бұрын

That's the one with Hit Girl in it! I wanted see it but I forgot about it, thanks for the reminder!

@dukecraig2402

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the reference, first I've heard of that and I'll definitely be checking it out. 👍

@ismu34

Жыл бұрын

I thought it was good until she started climbing on the underside of the plane lol

An one who owns a M97 I think it's summed up quite well here. I have the riot version that was made in 1910 if you're curious. It still works just fine too.

Having experience of my own with paper shells that have swelled, albeit in a side by side shotgun, I can relate. However it is one thing with this happening when your target is wild game that isn't shooting back at you..

The m97, and all other US trench guns, used the M1917, Pattern 14/17 bayonet and not the 1906 Springfield bayonet. The M1917 / Pattern 17 rifle was the most issued US Rifle in WWI. There were not enough 03 Springfields to go around. Winchester and two Remington factories were manufacturing P-14 Enfield rifles for England, chambered in .303. They were told to re-engineer and standardize the pattern for .30-06.

What I love about the 1897 is it basically got the same treatment at the C96 Mauser pistol, whilst other weapons came before it and were mostly successful enough the title of most successful went to others, not without reason but still something I always noticed

My M97 Indiana State Police 12 gauge was stolen while I was in Afghanistan. Wife also left me. Damn, I miss that gun.

@warpartyattheoutpost4987

2 жыл бұрын

I just spit beer everywhere. Thanks.

@dukenukem69

9 ай бұрын

Your wife took more magnum loads than the '97

Ha Fun to see the Trench I just broke down and detailed in the flicks. I found that mine is younger than I am? Just put it back together after detailing, de-rusting and replacing the parts I lost whilst doing so. Has some problem reassembling but it's working now after a right hand extractor replacement and now the ejector spring screw replacing on the way with the original for the crap redux someone in the past had done. Thanks, that was fun.

My favorite scotter gun. I've always wanted a reproduction that I can send out to have the action worked over to make it reliable, and have it converted over to a trench gun with quality parts.

The Winchester was popular with Hunters, the military and apparently the Stooges

When I was in Viet Nam in 1967 as an MP we had a mix of Remington 870s Winchester model 12s and 1 Winchester 97. 1 old master Seargent carried the 97. You did not want to be on the muzzle end of his gun.

Also, the mob assassin in "Bullett" used a Model 97.

The C&Rsenal video on this gun is great. They seem to have found the origin of that skeet shooting grenades thing.

Yes, this is a serious shotgun, thanks to legendary John Browning. Most modern guns are an engineered design of Browning's genius mind.😊

I have an original model C takedown version in 12ga. It's such a sweet gun and the *clack-clack* is sure to get anyone's attention

The 97 was used in "The Wild Bunch". Ernest Borgnine uses it in the final shootout along with Warren Oates. In case you reissue this great video.

As always, entertaining and informative. And a special thanks for the inclusion of 'The Stooges' comic take on the Model 1897. They never get old!

@stoneblue1795

2 жыл бұрын

Actually...

Notable mention "Farewell To The King". There is a scene where the main character slam fires his bayonet attached M97 on Japanese soldiers.

@dukecraig2402

2 жыл бұрын

That's not a Model 97 Winchester in that movie, it's a WW2 production Steven's Model 520-30 trenchgun, they're a hammerless design but have a square back action very similar to the shape of a Browning A5 shotgun and at a glance can look like a Model 97. But good eye anyways, you were close, the 520-30 was designed by John Browning who also designed the Model 97, he definitely has a signature style.

@billhale9740

2 жыл бұрын

Oh yes there is no disconnecter on that shotgun as well as the later Ithaca Mod 37

@billhale9740

2 жыл бұрын

Keep the trigger pulled and keep racking the slide. Not slam firing witch is something different

This was so cool hearing you talk about this shotgun. Speaking of which, I think it would be cool if you did a video on the M4 Super 90.

having owned the norinco repro of the gun its absolutely a blast to fire and use and i could see the reason for wanting one in trench warfare but I understand why it failed in WW1

I finally got my hands on one several years ago. It’s in the ‘Lite Home Artillery’ section of the storage locker. Lol. The thing even has a bayonet mount!

Another entertaining video! Loved the inclusion of Serenity (huge Firefly fan) and the Stooges!

I'm not really a Three Stodges fan but those Stodges clips sure were entertaining. I had some how missed watching this video when previously binging your channel. Thanks for another fun and interesting video.

2:37 now I know where the halo CE shotgun reload sound effect is from

Germans in WWI: the use of the Trench gun is cruel and unusual. Also Germans: Hanz get za Flammenwerfer!

Many of these films I grew up watching, so I bought one. One problem endemic to the take downs is the action shooting itself loose and no longer firing reliably until serviced by a skilled gunsmith with a bunch of selective fit parts. Found that out after I got mine. This is why the trench guns were exclusively solid frame. A good gun for its day, and a fun gun for today. But vastly too complex to justify mainstream use anymore.

Good to see Triela from the anime Gunslinger Girl getting her favorite weapon ready.

Nice you included Desert Punk. I watched that show 10 years ago when Netflix had everything. It was funny and you should watch it too.

@JohnnyJohnsonEsq

2 жыл бұрын

It's a lesser known anime classic :)

In 1975, 7th ID were issued m97s with the heat shield and bayonet lug for guard duty. During familiarizing I slam fired a full tube and was immediately pulled off the range. The range officer said the weapon was malfunctioning. I told him, it was functioning "Just Fine!"

an excellent review Johnny. I actually learned a lot. And the Norinco shotguns are still available in Canada. Sorry US, banned there.

One of my Favorite Shotguns, Perhaps one of the Weapons that Got me into Shotguns, especially Pump Action Ones, the M1897 Trench is my Most Favorite of all the Variants this Shotgun has... This Weapon to me is Just Badass and Awesome, especially the Trench Gun Variant, with its Perforated Heat Shield, a Bayonet, and Shorter Barrel... Gives a Short but Deadly vibe to it... I also Love the Fact that it can Be Slam Fired! Though Risky, but damn its just So Awesome and Deadly Awesome! America: *(Develops a Shotgun thay can Clear Trenches in a Few Shots)* Germany: Hey thats Illegal... We're Filing a Complaint and Ban for it! We'll also Punish severely those who Use the Weapon! America: Yeah, says the One who Developed Biological and Toxic Gas Weapons and Flamethrowers... We'll also Punish severely those that use Flamethrowers as well as Biological and Toxic Gas Weaponry... What do you say about that? Germany: Erm... Um... Scheisse... America: Though so Bitch... Great Video Johnny! Keep up the Amazing Work Comrade! Keep the Good Shit Rolling, my Friend!

Great firearm, just have to watch out so you don't get bit by the sliding action at the rear of the receiver.

Just remember keep you right hand low on the grip or it will get sliced up real good by the bolt as it comes back when you rack the slide. That underside of the bolt is sharp as all get out

Unfortunately, the Model 1897 was not effective on the WWI battlefield, as it's cardboard cartridges would swell up under wet conditions and jam the pump action. This was a big problem until they went with metal cartridges, but by that time the war was over. "Forgotten Weapons" and Othias covers this shortcoming.

@dukecraig2402

2 жыл бұрын

Well Forgotten Weapons highly exaggerated about several things apparently, first off the troops loved them and they proved to be highly effective especially with troops assaulting trenches. The problem with the wax impregnated paper cartridges basically only really affected night raiding parties who had to crawl through shell holes while trying to sneak into German lines, while crawling through the water filled shell holes the cartridges would get wet and swell up in the magazine tube and get hung up in them causing them not to feed into the action, this problem was quickly identified and until all brass cartridges were procured and sent to France the troops who handled shotguns (including the Model 10 Remington which was also outfitted as a trenchgun in the war) learned to keep the shells dry and to keep the shotguns from being immersed in water. There's a bunch of misinformation going around about the use of shotguns in WW1 and the ammunition used in them that seems to stem from Forgotten Weapons, well Gun Jesus isn't God, he gets it wrong about a lot of things, not only with shotguns in WW1 but other arms to. All brass shot shells were being produced long before WW1, all the way back to the old west in everything from buckshot to birdshot, the only reason the military chose paper shot shells for use in WW1 is simply because they were cheaper, the US was trying to equip a one million man Army and had a budget it had to work inside of, after the problems with the paper shells was identified all brass buckshot rounds were procured and rushed to France, these proved to solve the ammo related problems and the shotguns proved to be very reliable. And the US Army in it's typical fashion has the habit of forgetting the lessons it learns in the previous war so naturally when the US entered WW2 it initially ordered paper shot shells for use in shotguns, and once again when the same problem was identified it immediately procured all brass shot shells and rushed them into service. I've been collecting US military shotguns for over 30 years and have read many of the after action reports on them from WW1 to Vietnam, I can assure you that overwhelmingly the troops in WW1 that handled them loved them and wouldn't give one up for a rifle any day of the week. Another weapon he sreads a lot of myths around about is the M14 rifle, never in the history of firearms has there been one that's had as much misinformation spread around about it than the M14, and Gun Jesus just repeats a bunch of the myths about it, I couldn't even finish watching that video and afterwards refused to watch any more of his.

@billhale9740

2 жыл бұрын

I do believe in the WW1 era military twelve gauge shells were brass seen them in Vietnam in 1967

I love shotguns! Have 2, Mossberg 500, Maverick 88.

Well done, very thorough

4:45 the way he sweeps his shotgun across nick cage's face point blank without a care in the world, not once but twice

This shotgun also had the nickname, "Knucklebuster." When you pumped the shotgun, the bolt came back and if your thumb was in the way, OUCH!!!

@brentwhite7150

2 жыл бұрын

It takes some getting used to it almost happened to me one time when I first bought mine.

My mossberg M-590 shotgun took a bayonet, until I cut it off to run a dedicated forend light. I think some models of Remington 870 could take a bayonet as well. We got pokey things, and bangy things. And pokey-bangy things. And bangy-bangy things. And spinny-bangy things.

Great video! Wish you added Napoleon Wilson’s use of it in Assault on Precinct 13; used it like a boss in that movie!

Not gonna lie I loved using this Shotgun in Call of Duty: World at War, when your playing as a Marine in the Pacific. Worked well stoping Japanese Bonzai charges, real good.

My favorite shotgun. I own a ‘97 made in 1949 that had cut down to a 20” barrel and I own a Norinco trench gun replica. My real Winchester is a takedown model which is actually more common than the solid frame.

@brentwhite7150

2 жыл бұрын

That's cool I own a 97' made in 1912 it's got that long hunting barrel. I got it for a good price about 6 years ago it still runs like a champ.

@Gieszkanne

2 жыл бұрын

How is the Norinco?

@McPh1741

2 жыл бұрын

@@Gieszkanne I've never had a problem with it. It's a solid frame, non takedown, but all the real trench guns were. It has no trigger disconnect, so it can slam fire. The quality and fit and finish are great. I tell myself, even though it's made in China, the manufacturing processes in modern China have to be at least on par with 1897 America.

Thanks for the many shots of Larry Fine...my favorite Stooge.

love that scene in The Thin Red Line

Lee Marvin and Burt Lanchaster in the "The Professionals" was my intro movie to the 97.

I have a ‘97 solid frame riot model mfg. 1903. It’s a lot heavier than modern shotguns I think because of more iron used in the steel back then.

Like I said, I own a Winchester and a Norinco replica. I still would like to get a Model 12. Another favorite shotgun that I own 2 of is the Stevens 520. It’s another Browning design that doesn’t get enough attention. It was also used in both World wars and has a distinctive humpback receiver (double hump on older models). It too is milled from solid steel, breaks in two, and how’s no trigger disconnect. I have modern pump guns but I love the feel and sound of an older pump shotgun. Would you do an episode on the Stevens 520?

@JohnnyJohnsonEsq

2 жыл бұрын

I'll add it to the list 👍

I'm so blessed with the fact that I have a 1908 Model 1897!. She's so adorable!.P.S she's a riot gun!. P.P.S Browning started manafacturing solid brass shell's in 12ga. To solve the problem!, And you can still find them at gun shows!!!.(the shotgun sings the song)!!!.

Great video man! Thank you. Very informative and well made. Could you do FN Browning A5 some day?

Not a movie, but a real life incident, in the 1934 Kansas City Union Station massacre, an Oklahoma Chief of Police, loaned his M1897, 16 gauge, loaded with ball bearings, to an agent unfamiliar with the slam fire feature. Where 4 mobsters, 2 armed with Thompsons, others with M1911s stolen from a National Guard armory, approached vehicle with fellow mobster Frank Nash in front seat the agent, behind him in back sear, with with '97 pumped the action while holding the trigger blowing Nash's head open and triggering a free fire from other law enforcement and the mobsters. The mob's idea was to approach the car with 2 Tommy Guns and 2 .45s against cops with .38 revolvers and one shotgun, hoping to intimidate situation without any need for shooting. Obviously the agent's negligent discharge changed all that.

I just got rid of one It was a 1914 production take down model that I had added the bayonet lug/heat shield It is a very good shotgun and an excellent sportsman's peice

Watching a video is one thing. You really need to operate one to fully grasp the firepower the M97 can bring to bear.

In MoH: Airborner you can get the M1897 with the Bayonet when you upgrade it, also Magnum buckshot shell

That’s The Three Stooges (Moe Howard, Larry Fine and Shemp Howard) in the B/W scenes.

Ww1 Germans: use of mustard gas is considered inhumane and brutal. Let's use it against the Allies ( villianous laugh) Also ww1 Germans: the shotgun use by the Americans in the trenches is inhumane and brutal. Please stop Americans: stop using gas. Or gun goes BOOM!!! great work. 🔥🔥👋👋👍👍💪💪 Sir Johnny. Keep it up

@sylux3618

2 жыл бұрын

Not to say the Germans were correct but they had some 'logic' to their reasoning. The point of gas was that it comes, you see it and leave your position and don't get gasses. Therefor it is not cruel, and if you stay in it it's your own choice. Downside is that solder you can't just get up and abandon post. Then if you get shot by a normal bullet and you survive, the doctor can patch you up and it will be fine. A single wound is relatively easy to manage and patch up of its in a non lethal spot and therefor it is fair and humane to use. If you get shot by buckshot though, you get many particles in you and therefor a wounded soldier is much harder to get saved by a medic or doctor. And by that standard it is excessive and cruel, and shouldn't be allowed in a 'civil' war.

@kmlh5456

Жыл бұрын

@@sylux3618 the germans had NO logic in either war , thats why they got their asses kicked both times. When the going got tough , they could dish it out but couldn't take it. Amen.

That dude in Windtalkers just carelessly flagged the Cage's face with the shotgun... Not even with movie props, you might just baldwin someone by accident...

One of my favorite guns, I've always wanted to own one

@sukhoiboy4140

2 жыл бұрын

Norinco make one dude. 400cad ezpz

1:39 “Shotgun! Is what he’s gonna use! And then you've got yourself a SUNABOUZU!”

The Winchester Model 12 was a much better shotgun than the M97. It's action is more enclosed inside the receiver and it doesn't have the external hammer issue of getting damaged or accidentally discharging if dropped. The M97 was also used by the Wells Fargo company to protect their stagecoaches which were still common in the early 20th century.

@stevenbartlett2968

2 жыл бұрын

I have 2 use them at home youngest daughter loves to shoot trap with one fits well

@warpartyattheoutpost4987

2 жыл бұрын

@@stevenbartlett2968, I'm jealous... you wanna sell one? I can't slamfire my Mossberg.😪

@stevenbartlett2968

2 жыл бұрын

There family sorry

@dukecraig2402

2 жыл бұрын

That's nonsense, I've owned many of both and that's total nonsense. And if you don't think a Model 12 Winchester won't discharge from being dropped then you go right ahead and stand in front of one that's loaded and gets dropped if you're so confident about that. The proper way to handle a Model 97 in a safe manner that has one in the chamber is to have it on half cock, if you've ever had one apart you'd know that the half cock notch on the hammer is U shaped and completely captures the sear part of the trigger, when in that state you can drop it on the hammer or strike the hammer with an object and it'll never fall on the firing pin, anyone who'd carry a Model 97 with one in the chamber and the hammer resting on the firing pin instead of having it on half cock deserves to shoot their own foot off, only a complete idiot would do something like that, there as safe as any firearm ever made when handled the way they're designed to be handled. John Moses Browning was highly intelligent and didn't design unsafe or junk firearms, obviously you've never owned or handled a Model 97.

@Gieszkanne

2 жыл бұрын

All shotguns with internal hammer arent drop safe either! The good thing with the 1897 is that you can store it safely with a loaded chamber and hammer down.

Germans in WW1: Shotguns are inhumane. Americans: I don’t give a fuck what you think, Jerry.

I have to say The Winchester m97 defiantly made an entire new brand of guns and also may have changed shotgun forever. For such an iconic shotgun is Also had its Copycat Like a Looks such as the ,Remington Model 10 ,Ithaca M37 and Stevens 520,

I realize this video was posted years ago, and so any corrections don't matter, but I thought I'd jump in there anyway. The clips at 3:04 and 3:53 show Lee Marvin with a model 1897, and are labelled as being taken from the movie The Wild Bunch (1969). While that is certainly a worthy film, the correct movie is The Professionals (1966). Apologies if someone already pointed this out.

Always liked the M-97 and regret now having bought one 30-odd years ago before they started getting expensive. BTW, not to be picky but two of the clips labeled The Wild Bunch are actually from The Professionals. 👍😁

@JohnnyJohnsonEsq

2 жыл бұрын

ha ya little editing mistake on my part. There are usually a few :)

Actually, a lot of ‘97s are used in cowboy action shooting and many of the vintage models are cut down to make them handier for quick action. So much so, in fact, that it is getting harder to find one without a cut barrel. I have an E model with the original 24” factory barrel and I bought it specifically to prevent it from being cut down. The Norinco versions are pretty good quality and are also popular within cowboy action shooting ranks.

Mr browning is the greatest designer of firearms ever!!!

I was surprised not to see "The Wild Bunch" (best. western.ever!) shown more, especially considering the prominence of the 1897 shotguns used by Warren Oates and Ernest Borgnines characters., especially in the climactic "Battle of bloody porch". kzread.info/dash/bejne/ka2nuNGPY9ubitI.html

The trench gun in ww1 wasn't as popular as you'd think as the very vast majority used paper shells that would swell and jam with moisture and for as far as Germany pioneering gas warfare the french were actually the first to use it as a weapon

My Top 10 Favorite Shotgun list 1)SPAS 12 2)AA-12 3)SAIGA 12 4) SPAS 15 5)Armsel striker 6)Neostead 2000 7)Winchester model 1887/1901 8)Itacha 37 9)KSG 10)Benelli 1014

@sukhoiboy4140

2 жыл бұрын

U mean ithaca lol. Great list btw

It may have been able to take a bayonet, but I wonder how much use it actually was? My first shotgun was an M-590a1, with bayonet lug. About the forth round fired with the bayonet, it launched my bayonet downrange at about the speed of smell. When I stumbled across a Surefire dedicated weapon mounted forend light in Cabella's Bargain Cave "missing parts", that looked like the better choice (the only parts missing i could find were the manual, and batteries, and I could get the manual online). Only problem was, it wouldn't go into battery with the light, so I had the bayonet lug ground off, so the gun would work.

Nice video! Need one on the Ithaca M37.

a lot of scenes of the 97 in action can be seen in the Lee Marvin movie "The Professionals"

The slamfire trench broom, the Thompson was supposed to be the ultimate trench broom but didn't quite make it to trials before the war ended.

Winchester Model 1879: *The Infamous Trench Sweeper That Germany Tried & Failed To Have It Banned.*

@patriotenfield3276

2 жыл бұрын

Germany:- "It's not warcrime if you do it" *Proceeds to gas trenches , both enemy and friendly also Germany :- "Reee Those Amerikkans and der shotguns .Ban them . "

One of the best Lee Marvin lines; in the professionals he says, "If he takes off his hat, passes it over his gun hand and says, Go with God, Shoot him!" Later on he does!

I realize this is an older video but for a good example of the 1897 on screen, check out the episode "Yellow" from "Tales from the Crypt". It stars Lance Henriksen and Kirk and Michael Douglas as an adaptation of Paths of Glory

I remember using this shotgun in World at War to blast off enemies' limbs and their heads, God, i really like the gore in the game.