"Welcome, to making cooking mistakes with Greg" 🤣 Man, I'd watch that too.

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

I could definitely butcher a fine dining meal 😅

I reccomended this channel to my ol lady. Greg

I remember when I was first starting Tig and was just practicing stringers on plate to learn torch and filler control. I was pouring the beans to a chunk of 3/4" 6061 to see how deep it would penetrate. (I was getting bored with running beads that day) I had just stopped the weld and was pulling away after post flow and I heard a noise like hitting the table with a hammer. I had stressed the plate so badly with the high heat input it shattered when it started cooling. Caught me by surprise. My mentor was rolling with laughter on the other side of the shop. He saw what I was doing and was just waiting for the show. He expected it to bang while I was still " welding ".

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

Aluminum has a real bad “hot short” problem where if it cools fast the welds will crack. If you run a fusion weld with no filler down a thick plate of aluminum, and have the machine set to pulse, you can literally watch the material crack every time it goes off the pulse current to background current. Pretty wild stuff lol.

Yep. Most of it is above ground and insulated so it won't thaw the permafrost. Looking forward to your experiment.

One thing to note is that the force required to break the quenched specimens is that it is stronger but at the expense of ductility. Now what you should do is take the same quenched specimen and put it in an oven at 450F or so for an hour and then try again. PS: What happens is that the austenite is transformed into martensite when the quenching occurs.

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

I will definitely give that a shot to see what happens. To me what’s scary is the thought some idiot is out there welding on things and dumping water on the welds to get the job done faster lol. You would never know looking at them but a decent shock load and it’s toast. I expected them to more or less tear at about half a bend, but that second one literally blew up once the plate bent at all.

@GimpGladly

Ай бұрын

Definitetly, it would be very interesting to see how normalizing/annealing may or may not mitigate the effect of quenching, and I would go a step further and run a set of unquenched pieces through the oven as well to see what if any difference might be there. If I recall, 450°F might be just at the lower bound of annealing temperatures depending on the steel. So, if possible, a higher temperature might be desirable. (But I suppose it depends on the oven; I used my apartment oven for some school project parts years ago, never was sure if it actually worked or not, lol) Another thought is to test all pieces to failure using different geometry that will allow a break to occur at some point. My thinking here is that the unquenched and annealed piece may actually end up being the strongest, but it would be interesting to see the absolute limit of each combination of variables. As I saw mentioned in another comment, time before quenching could add another dimension to this. Obviously, this could easily exponentiate out of control with all the variables though.

@paulkurilecz4209

Ай бұрын

@@GimpGladly The process of tempering is well known. I would recommend that you look into post weld heat treatments. For example, on C-Mn steels, a PWHT is commonly performed at 1050F to 1100F to temper the transformation products in the weld and HAZ. This is fairly common in thick sections (> 0.5") where the cooling rate is sufficient to cause transformation to martensite and retained austenite. In the oil and gas industry many fittings are now provided in a quenched and tempered (Q&T) state to provide for higher strength. hth

@paulkurilecz4209

Ай бұрын

@@makingmistakeswithgreg The ductility of martensite (the principal component in a quenched steel) is almost nil. Compare this to fully annealed steel which can have a ductility (elongation) of up to 30%. Quenching any steel is not a good idea unless you plan on tempering it. Ideally, tempering of quenched steel should be done at 500F to 900F and PWHT at 1000F to 1100F. The higher temperatures will result in a more ductile weld. 450F is about the lowest temperature and I recommended that as you can use your kitchen oven for that. You will need to leave it in at temperature for at least one hour. Figure 30 minutes for the piece of steel to come to temperature. I have a convection oven that I use for preheating large components especially aluminum prior to welding. PS: Doing face bends is better for examining the weld. This does tend to always break the weld and allows examination of the depth of fusion and for porosity.

We have the same problems with gardening and tempering. Most of us have made the screwdriver/chisel combo in junior high or high school. You temper by watching the colors and plunge it into water. While that blacksmith method js fine for the somewhat crude tools they make and use (no insult to blacksmiths here (I do some of that myself), it’s not for precision and fine parts. That plunge ensures a coarse grain with weak boundaries that is brittle and won’t stand up. Slow and steady, like the tortoise, is the way to go. Same thing for welding. Water gives that same result. Let it cool to around 250 degrees f. After that, it doesn’t matter if you plunge it or not, because below that temp the grain is set.

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

Good info. Once I can locate a shop I am Looking forward to experimenting with blacksmithing, I know very little about it. Speaking of temps on plates, I am planning on chilling a plate to -30 atleast and welding it while cold. Any predictions on the results? I have welded outside when it was -14 but I preheated the material to 150 first. It’s amazing how much heat it takes to heat up even 1/4 in plate that’s below -10.

I watched a bunch of videos from Pakistan where they use the trusty old stick welder for everything and found it interesting that every video shows the person bending the electrode in the middle before welding and I don't know why they do that. To be clear they weld with regular sunglasses and probably think PPE is a glass company or something so I don't think they have a performance reason for bending the rods but it might be worth testing.

@JonDingle

Ай бұрын

And they very often use an old Dr Pepper (Other brands are available) bottle to squirt water on the weld, very cringe-worthy indeed.

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

Some of the rods those guys run seem to be longer than what we can get, they may be home made lol. I think they bend to rod to make it easier to weld around something. When it burns off close to the middle they just break the rod in half and keep welding lol. I love watching those guys, they will fix anything with those rods lol.

Wow! as expected, fast cooling of steel causes the atoms to be locked in their places preventing them returning to the original crystal structure. Material becomes hard but brittle. Another great video and demonstration from a Master.

Another great video, thanks Greg!

Awesome Greg, can't wait for the next!

Thank u Greg for ur incredible knowledge An teaching all of us bottom line is there are no shortcuts wen it comes to solid welds🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

Great video, again! Thanks

Learned something new today👍

Another realliy interesting video squire. I knew the weld would be more brittle because even quenching a red hot unwelded, plain steel bar goes brittle. What I didn't expect to see was the initial strength rating and then the catastrophic failure. I thought it would have broken at a much lower pressure.

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

It seems like that weld had zero flex to it. The second the plate started flexing (and some pressure was put on the weld) it instantly gave up. I expected the weld to tear slowly and fail, not instantaneously fail. It would have been fun to hit one with a hammer because I bet it would have broke instantly too.

Excellent welding channel! Thank you.

"Making Cooking Mistakes With Greg" needs to go from a welding video gaffe to a reality. Sub channel content or even sprinkled into the main channel's content occasionally would be fun.

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

I will have to drum up something. Maybe burritos in the rod oven segment 😅

@jacobwrona

Ай бұрын

@@makingmistakeswithgreg I'm envisioning the thumbnail 🤣

Good one, thank you.

Welding the Alaska pipeline in winter, they had shelters to enclose the weld area that slid along the pipe. These were heated but not sure how they dealt with heating the pipe itself in the minus forty to sixty Temps. You would have to have some monumental heat just to keep the heat from transmitting to the cold sections. The huts were not that big, maybe twelve feet long. Machines would slide them along the pipe.

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

I would imagine they could have used an induction heater coil run off an engine drive. Considering the temps, amount of metal, and circumstances I would imagine they must have heated the pipe. I am going to chill down a fillet weld to -50 and weld on it cold to see what happens. I would think it would fail like it did in this video, it will be interesting to see what happens lol.

Excellent video and explanations of details and comparing the SMAW to MiG results.

If you compare 4:30 and 7:00 you'll notice that air cooled part started to seriously bend at 5 tons whereas the water cooled part took 6 tons to start deforming. Water cooling is good if you want higher strength against bending but you have to accept that when the part fails, the failure is catastrophic. For the example part, if you can be sure you never have more that 5 tons, water cooled part would be better because it would be strong enough not to fail and it wouldn't even bend with 5 ton force. However, if the part is car or bike frame, you obviously don't want a catastrophic failure and want to see bending first.

@kevin-pk6hd

Ай бұрын

Even with a part that's loaded below 5t you have to watch out for mulch quicker fatigue failures. It's been a while but Blodgett talks about it in one of his books specifically about welding in bad weather causing welds to fail at super low cycle counts

@MikkoRantalainen

Ай бұрын

@@kevin-pk6hd Good point! Fatique failures are hard enough to predict that even aviation level engineering cannot guarantee perfect results.

We had some temperature crayons markers back in the day at the boiler shop, not in that business anymore.... can't remember the name...

@dennisyoung4631

Ай бұрын

Tempilaq?

@emel60

Ай бұрын

That's kinda cool!

No further comments to quenching by dipping in or pouring water an hot welds. But in my opinion there may also be an issue when working in the field where your Part is made like an giant heatsink and the material is soaking wet before welding and just dryed in the particular weld area. (actual Situation is a waterwheel) the guy (one of the really good ones) keeps welding his bucket sections in quite harsh weather condition and these keep ripping apart. Besides he uses his elektrodes out of spec (7018 vertical downhill) I suspected the huge heatdissipation causing embrittlement. What do you think about this? When welding multiple passes there is a specified interpass temperature specified for each material and noted in the spec sheet for it. For mild steel it is 350°C (if I remember right) but other steels may be much lower. For repairs where I don't know the particular material exactly I try not to exceed 150°C. On thicker material I tend to preheat to 80°C (just in case...) Thank you for that impressive Video!

That will be interesting. I know with all the attention on building the pipeline they could not afford any failed welds or even minor leaks. Not sure but I seem to remember being told that all the pipe welds were x-rayed as they made them.

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

The amount of time wasted over repairs is definitely no joke, and not wanted lol. Defects are generally not acceptable especially if it lead to a failure after it is buried. I don’t doubt they would have xrayed everything, I can’t imagine the cost for the repair bill for a failed weld, probably far more than the X-rays cost lol.

It would be interesting to see what a water quenched weld look like when it is cut through and etched. I wonder if you could actually see a definite change in grain structure at where the fracture point would occur.

@makingmistakeswithgreg

28 күн бұрын

I will have to do that to see if there is a visual difference 😀

Thanks for the video I really didn't think it would make a difference because I thought the rods were mild steel. Must have enough carbon in them to make it brittle. At least to some degree anyway.

This makes sense. Same reason you dont quench a hot knife in water. It makes it too brittle.

Very interesting. I wonder at what point of the natural cooling process the srystaline structure of the metal stops changing and it is safe to put it water. In my very limited experience, watching temperature drop out of a piece of metal is exponential and slows drastically. So, the metal can still be too hot to hold comfortably, but is only 70-80C which is a lot cooler than during or right after the weld. It can take a long time to get it to a point where it can be held. Anyway, I think it seems safe to say that if strength is paramount, then let it cool entirely by air. Thanks for taking the time to do this testing.

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

No problem 😀. I would imagine when the temp of the weld is less than 300f degrees it would probably be less affected. I will have to do some research on this to get a better idea. I have a feeling even 20-30 seconds before water would drastically change the results. More tests will need to be done 😀

weld embrittlement due to interpass temp is a real thing too

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

It sure is. When playing with higher strength steel it can be a big no go to allow the temp to reach above or below interpass temp limits.

I wonder what the effect of wind is on stick welding construction wise such as up on a bridge? Does that cool too much? Likewise if you play a dialed down stream of shop air on a stick weld as you do it? Does it blow the protective gases from the flux off with a detrimental effect? I have avoided welding outside when it is blowing above a breeze because I always thought it would not be good. Of course with Mig or Tig it would be a complete no go without shelter and zero breeze across the work. Always interesting Greg!

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

So I have done a tremendous amount of stick welding in the elements and I am not joking when I say it is very difficult to have 6010 or 7018 to put down poor welds with defects from wind, rain, etc. Stick welds can produce porosity from surface/metal contamination, typically from oil or grease. I have never tried, but I have a feeling if someone were to weld on 3/8th steel that was say -10 degrees, the finished weld may be very brittle. That’s something I will definitely have to try. Anytime I have welded in temps like that I preheat the material to atleast 150 degrees then weld it.

Ahhhh the joys of Fe-Fe3C diagram! Mr. Greg, do you then have any experience, a word or two about the quick post weld cooling impairment by the aluminum or ceramic heat sinks? Like they use for bigger gaps? Instead of water, the aluminum or ceramic does the same thing basically- it cools the weld pool so fast it won't drop down onto your shoes... But are the steel properties impaired just as with water?

@sebastianleicht

Ай бұрын

Especially the ceramics are not used as heatsink. They, in my opinion, prevent the weldpool physically from dripping off. Aluminium or copper backings may have a decent heat dissipation but you should grind these roots out anyways and reweld them from the back because if you alloy steel with these, the results may be unpredictable (brittle). Just try tigbracing with to much heat - the alloy is not even scratchable with a file....

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

So with a backing bar that pulls heat out I would think it would be slow enough not to matter. A ceramic trough strip like they use on big welds (typically in the flat position on a butt weld to keep the backside from dropping) would insulate the molten pool enough that it would slowly cool. Where things get super crazy is aluminum. Aluminum is very hot short sensitive and the faster the molten pool solidifies the more likely the weld is to immediately crack. This is why you don’t leave craters at the end of aluminum welds, it will crack before it’s cool at that point.

@emel60

Ай бұрын

Thanks for replying me! I've actually held the ceramic backing today, but the dinosaur colleague said it is never used because it's too expensive. And unnecessary, since we repair shipping containers which are patched up more than your grandmas quilt, and it's mostly vertical and horizontal butt welding on the walls, and low amount of bottom perpendicular wall-to floor welding, 4 and 5mm max (at least for me, so fare). I've overseen that the ceramic is actually pure alumina which has high IR reflectivity and poor conduction. I thought it was intended to quickly cool the welds, my bad. As stated, I've not seen it before, as I'm a novice. I did see plenty of coworkers, including seniors, at my previous shit-show workplace, use aluminum plates for the same purpose- preventing dripping. I guess that's my in situ proof of your previous video's point - you've been doing it forever... But wrong. As for aluminum plate cooling, I've quenched many a blades between them. I made a simple vice attachment for two plates. In goes the hot stuff, I squeeze, it cools, and comes out straighter than Berlusconi. I can only imagine what the microstructure of the so rapidly cooled weld looks like. It's twice as hot, or more, than my knives were. That's some serious stressing. Thanks again! You could cover it in a video :)

Love the channel Greg. To increase ductility after quenching, you then need to temper. A good channel that does testing on steel is 'Steel Image' They let out an episode a month ago which goes into normalising, annealing, quenching, and tempering 'Steel Heat Treatment Explained'. They have a great channel and well worth a look.

As you know, when welding a high carbon metal like Cast Iron, one needs both PREHEAT and a Long Slow Cooldown to allow the metal to recrystallize properly to avoid become very brittle (hence the beauty of SiB cast iron). I know there is more to it than that, but this sets the foundation for my question. If Quenching increases Brittleness… Would long controlled Heat-Soak do anything to increase strength and/or further reduce brittleness. I have also noticed when using a Plasma Cutter, the edge of the cut becomes “Hardened” making it more difficult to Tap etc. if a plasma cutter does that to the edge, and later that same edge is welded in say a fillet joint, is it a possible Stress Riser and prone to cracking similar to quenching? My gut tells me it would be, and I wonder if annealing or grinding a bit would prevent? I wish I had the ability to test this theory, but sadly I don’t. Any thoughts on this?

@JonDingle

Ай бұрын

After plasma cutting, it is always wise to clean off the cut with a grinder to remove the millscale/oxidation layer anyway. That being said, if you did weld straight after plasma cutting without cleaing off then the surface is being melted again to a liquid state. The millscale/oxidation would be the contamination that would weaken the weld I reckon.

@michaelwhiting878

Ай бұрын

@@JonDingle I totally agree, and I am one who really preps any area to be welded down to shiny metal. I didn’t do a good job of explaining my question, and I’m not sure how really describe what I was thinking, so I will put it this way: the plasma cutter rapidly heats the metal along the cut line, and then it cools fairly rapidly by the remaining metal along the heat affected zone acting as a heatsink, so you rapidly heated and cooled that metal thereby changing the crystalline structure and essentially hardening the base metal along that heat affected zone (I’m guessing say an 1/8” to 1/4” in from the cut line) to a certain degree. I have noticed when grinding or drilling & tapping that affected metal that it seems considerably harder. Assuming that metal to be welded (as suggested earlier) as a fillet weld was properly cleaned and prepared; I am thinking that boundary of hardened metal will behave differently. Perhaps the weld process will anneal that as it goes molten and alloys with the filler and parent metal and then cools much slower than a plasma cut would. Perhaps I’m over thinking it, but my concern would be for a high liability weld it could be a factor to consider. In my ca se, I have a heavy duty mobility lift on the back of my truck that is under a tremendous stress when fully loaded, especially going over bump. It has cracked before, and quick repairs made (not by me). I am going to rebuild the lift and reinforce it with plasma cut gussets.

@analogplanet9675

Ай бұрын

Same happens with laser cut parts yeah. But welding that hardened edge will reset the grain structure and it will be metallurgically just fine and dandy. especially if you clean off the oxide first.

@michaelwhiting878

Ай бұрын

@@analogplanet9675 Thank You - that is good to know and hear from someone who has experienced similar hardening along cut lines.

Sir please making rebar welding content🙂

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

Not all rebar is weldable. If you weld high carbon non weldable rebar the welds will break. I know this from experience lol.

What rod would you recommend to weld 2 inch tubing 1/8th thickness for use as a frame for a large shed?

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

For that it comes down to your personal skill level. Depending on how strong the base material is I would use 7018, but that’s not the easiest rod to work with. My guess is most companies would weld something like that with 6011. It runs far better out of position than 6013. Flux core wire would also do a decent job easier than stick.

@briancarton1804

Ай бұрын

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks for your reply. I don't have flux core so stick with have to do. I'm on a tight budget as I have recently given financial help to a friend recently divorced. A lot of people here in Europe recommend 6013 but I have been looking at your tests showing the 7018 welds holding up in your press. I'm not the world's greatest welder and I'm doing a lot of practice on scrap pieces at the moment in preparation for this project. I'm about to buy my first 7018s. Wish me luck. Thanks again. Brian.

Possibility of brittleness (water quenching) + hydrogen impartment??

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

It’s possible it would absorb hydrogen into the weld because the tail end of it was red hot when I dumped it. I don’t think that would directly cause the failure though because the material itself wouldn’t drastically be affected by it. I have welded with soaking wet 7018s (that were in a bottle of water for over a day) and they had no issues passing a bend test. The leidenfrost effect would likely keep the water from touching the molten metal until it was solidified. My assumption is that the grain structure of the weld was drastically affected by how fast it cooled. I am hoping a metallurgist could shed some light on this for all of us.

Thanks a $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

On multi pass, how long should it cool? Cool to touch?

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

Multi pass on thicker non high strength steel I would say sub 200 wouldn’t be an issue. On some steels it’s best to keep the temp above 150f (or even much higher) between passes. I will do some research to get specifics. The biggest issue is if your 3 passes deep on say 1/2in steel with 7018, and you start seeing half your weld glowing red the grain structure will be poor. I will shoot some videos on this and test stuff to demonstrate it 😀

I’m sure you are also getting some hydrogen embrittlement as well from quenching in water.

bend in water vs oil?

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

I might try that. My guess is it will still fail. Letting it air cool is the way to go.

What about using wd 40

@JonDingle

Ай бұрын

That would be worse because the spray from a can is much colder than water in a bucket or out of a tap.

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

That’s an interesting question. The oil would likely not evaporate as fast, but I bet the results would be similar.

Shhhh … don’t teach people about “heat input” when it comes to welding multiple passes, it keeps me in a job with the quarries and farmers surrounding 😁

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

Haha I got a good laugh out of that because I know it’s true lol. I have fixed a fair share of higher strength steel that broke and clearly the guy previously put down some big fat caulk beads (likely with no preheat) and had no idea why it failed. Luckily those types avoid watching videos or reading to find out ways to do things right. That’s good, it will keep you busy forever lol

Eagerly awaiting the results: will they crack our just wrap into a potato chip? For the sake of entertainment value, I'm going to go with crack. I'd love to see the results of one of those crack detector tests on the worked piece.

@PaulSteMarie

Ай бұрын

Well, that was interesting. The only things I've dealt with for hardening are O1 and W1 (aka 1095), but I've got some D2 for future projects. The W1, which is just high carbon steel, requires a water quench, and bigger pieces are prone to wrapping and cracking. O1 will harden in an oil quench, and is less prone to wrapping and cracking. D2 is air hardening, and supposedly has minimal distribution during quench. We'll see. At any rate, whenever you quench harden steel, it needs to be tempered afterwards or you get something that's glass-hard and glass-brittle, i.e. yield strength (bending) and ultimate strength (breaking) are very close together.

again with the fancy book lernins? jeez jk thanks for the info

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

The book learning is optional, but making mistakes isn’t lol. That’s welding: 99% mistakes for a long time before you get to about 50/50 mistakes vs things go well lol.

@steeveejee4647

Ай бұрын

your channel taught me more than any other channel on welding and i follow all of them all. you and have a way of explaining things like no one else. you point out your wrongs and rights and i have become a better welder since following you. for some reason i just like to joke around about the book learnins but I really do appreciate them and always look forward to your content book learnins and all i appreciate it . keep up the great content hopefully ill make enough in this business to become a patreon soon

Sweating on my welds can’t possibly be doing good things

@makingmistakeswithgreg

Ай бұрын

Considering how hot it’s been it’s almost unavoidable lol.