Why You Shouldn’t Build Your Next App in Rust
In this video, we will explore why programming a UI in Rust is so hard and what are some of the possible solutions if you are looking to build an app in the Rust programming language. 🦀👩💻
You see Rust being talked about EVERYWHERE and for good reason. Something that isn't so obvious is how hard it is to create a User Interface (UI) with it.
We will look at how Rust’s unique memory management model and lack of inheritance make it difficult to use traditional object-oriented programming patterns for UI development. We will also see how some Rust frameworks and libraries are trying to overcome these difficulties by using different approaches, such as functional programming, entity-component-systems, immediate mode GUI, and even the DOM.
If you are interested in learning more about Rust and UI programming, this video is for you!
Written Version 📝
www.warp.dev/blog/why-is-buil...
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TIMESTAMPS
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0:00 Why Rust is Loved
0:34 What Makes Rust So Unique?
1:45 How UI Programming (Usually) Works
2:46 How Rust Makes This Hard
4:21 Attempting UI Design with Rust
5:34 How We Are Tackling Rust with UI
6:10 ELM Architecture
7:26 Entity Component Structure
7:58 How We Are Building UI
9:03 What Are Your Thoughts?
Пікірлер: 285
Are you using Rust to build UI? 🤔 Let us know!
@challow90221
Жыл бұрын
I’m just starting to know the language… so are you saying that rust isn’t up friendly?
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
@@challow90221 Rust is awesome and you should learn it! It's just in the early stages of building UI :)
@challow90221
Жыл бұрын
@@warpdotdev thanks. I meant to say “UI” not “up” lol I’m glad you figured out my blunder.
@matthiskalble3621
Жыл бұрын
Yes, and it is quite pleasant imo, for example in dioxus you can basically write html in a macro and is just works Macros are the backbone as far as my opinions go (generate boilerplate from html like language)
@DeathSugar
Жыл бұрын
> Rust is not OOP It is OOP, just don't have regular inheritance.
Get ready for a Primeagen reaction
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
We’re ready
@bArium5656
Жыл бұрын
Waiting
@joshuasarmiento7665
Жыл бұрын
@ThePrimeagen
@smash3689
Жыл бұрын
3:16 wll trigger him so bad
@soonhongng7037
Жыл бұрын
hah you mean waiting for the reaction of the cringy opinionated man?
"Imagine having a button that doesn't do anything when you click on it". This is how my apps work now
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
We've all been there....
@lakshitgupta3025
Жыл бұрын
Commenting before this comment blows up
@principleshipcoleoid8095
Жыл бұрын
Isn't this better than a button that does do a wrong thing when clicked, but only sometimes?
@callbettersaul
11 ай бұрын
@@lakshitgupta3025 Still waiting for the comment to blow up.
@eamonburns9597
4 ай бұрын
@@lakshitgupta3025 Still waiting...
Lack of inheritance puts no restrictions on how UIs are built. If anything, there's more and more trend towards getting rid of inheritance and OOP in general (take react hooks for example). What's challenging in Rust is sharing of mutable data. If 2 components can modify the same view / same data (e.g. clicking menu icon can open a menu, and clicking close button or overlay can close the menu), that means both components need mutable references to the same data, which is disallowed in Rust. This is solved, usually through RefCell or something like it, but it's not as easy as in other languages, though I'd say every UI framework has already come up with good solutions for this and many have decent DX. I don't think the argument about inheritance makes any sense, and criticizing one example of trait implementation doesn't lead to a general conclusion that Rust is too limited for building UIs in any way. Rust doesn't have less capabilities than other languages, but Rust has less magic and fewer ways of shooting yourself in the foot. If you want to understand and fully control the memory and speed of your application, I'd say Rust is actually preferable.
@kaihsiangju
Жыл бұрын
As you said, the issue is that it is not as easy as in other languages, so you have to come up with different approaches, which is the main point of this video explaining why it is difficult and how to resolve it.
@32zim32
11 ай бұрын
Rust is not too limited but it is not suitable for building UIs. That's correct?
@32zim32
11 ай бұрын
Inheritance is very very handy when designing such systems and rust just throws it away and don't give you any good alternatives to do it. I think the core team and many fans of rust are just haters of OOP and they will never agree that sometimes OOP is really useful. They just throw it away completely without giving you any good alternatives
@kirglow4639
11 ай бұрын
@@32zim32 no. Rust is perfectly suitable for building UIs. If you want more magic and less control, Rust might not be the best option, but if you want more control over speed and memory, Rust is a great option. Even that is not exactly correct, because Rust has libraries that abstract away low level details and give you a lot of magic instead. So, Rust is good in either case, just beware that Rust gives you more control that you may not be used to.
@32zim32
11 ай бұрын
@@kirglow4639 time will show. Right know we don't have mature rust UI libraries with big success stories
This is ironically a common Trend I see in more complex rust programs. Using owning relations gets prevented by the borrow checker, so people invent this "index into an array" method, to circumvent the borrow checker. Issue is, then you kinda reinvented pointers, only that the rust system does not "know" about them and thus cannot check them. This also means there is no mechanism preventing you from accidentally using the wrong index into the array. This is similar to the memory bugs rust tries to avoid, just one level higher.
@Speykious
Жыл бұрын
You can only use the wrong index into an array if you remove elements in a way that everything after the removed element has to be moved. But with normal pointers, it also happens when your vec is reallocated. There's still a problem being solved.
@gotbread2
Жыл бұрын
@@Speykious If each element had a vector of pointers to their child elements, you can remove elements safely and still be sure that the tree structure is not damaged.
@kirglow4639
Жыл бұрын
It's not the same as pointers in that you won't experience undefined behavior. You can argue that panics are just as bad, but that's the whole thing about Rust: it only guarantees lack of UB, not panics.
@HyperFocusMarshmallow
11 ай бұрын
I mean, rust has pointers if you want them. It just requires unsafe to dereference them. If someone does a lot of stuff just using a method taking an index, why not just use a reference with a lifetime straight up? I guess it takes people a few weeks or months to get that if they come from programming languages that don’t have lifetimes, but still.
@christianm4906
7 ай бұрын
That sounds like a lot of headaches.
Isn't this a click bait? You didn't explain why we shouldn't use Rust and started explaining all Rust features.
More content like this please, getting fireship vibes here nice balance of educational and fun
Personally i like the "egui" crate the most. You create UI elements not by creating objects, but by calling functions. Your code sits inside a big closure that is called each frame, therefore your UI is rendered every frame - no need for component management, if you don't want to draw something based on a condition, you just put the drawing call into an `if`.
@invinciblemode
Жыл бұрын
Sounds not performant
@user-vn9ld2ce1s
Жыл бұрын
@@invinciblemode It does take more resources, but for my usecase (mostly simple apps composed of regular widgets and simple drawing into canvas), it's more than fast enough.
@thekwoka4707
Жыл бұрын
So basically react but slower?
@user-vn9ld2ce1s
Жыл бұрын
@@thekwoka4707 I don't know if it's faster or slower than React, but since it is native code (or wasm), it won't have the overhead of a JS interpreter. I don't pretend to know how react works, so i'm not to judge.
@invinciblemode
Жыл бұрын
@@user-vn9ld2ce1s this is just a classic case of not everything WASM is better if the architecture is flawed to begin with. Nothing is more performant than JS when it comes to managing UI that uses native browser DOM nodes. If you’re not using DOM nodes (think apps like Figma, SketchUp, photoshop, webGL, etc) then WASM brings native desktop level performance to the browser (in those use cases only!)
Rust does not "lack" object oriented programming. It supports it in almost the same way that C++ does, even with multiple inheiritance. Instead of "extending" a class, you just have another struct as a member. To make the "derived" class act like one of it's members, impl the Deref trait to allow it to be borrowed. This use is what the Fyrox game engine uses. Please don't make it more difficult to find Rust programmers for hire buy discourraging its use. We need more Rust programmers.
@khatdubell
11 ай бұрын
Exactly. OOP is about keeping functions that operate on data, with that data. Its about dealing with data at a higher level of abstraction (the interface or trait) rather than directly manipulating it yourself. Rust supports this.
@AbuAl7sn1
10 ай бұрын
sister you genius
@AshishSinghh
7 ай бұрын
like Golang?
@jaysistar2711
7 ай бұрын
@@AshishSinghh While Go has inheritance by not giving a member a name, Rust gives the member a name and an impl of Deref lets you use the type as if it were another, so Deref is applicable to more than inheritance (the "new-type" pattern, smart pointers, etc.).
@TehKarmalizer
5 ай бұрын
I’ve never seen anyone mention the Deref trait. Ever. Thank you for mentioning it. It could be so useful.
Anything OOP can do, traits can do better. The mutability thing is not really a problem in Rust. Problems with references and the borrow checker? Use smart pointers. Accessing smart pointers is very performant, like accessing references (without optimizations). Iced is amazing, but still lacks many features.
In the AMIGA days there also was no object oriented Model for doing GUIs, but AMIGA had GUIs, Windows a long time before Microsoft Windows was a thing. There are C-libs for graphics out there like raylib or OpenGL that also need to update alot of events and have to organize that. With C you need to build your own structures and data organization, because C is a very primitive language. So the big picture could yield from the question: How did they do this with those minimal resources, and how can we transfer this to the Rust-world? Another good sort of information would come from game programmers like for instance Casey Muratori. With the object oriented approach you miss the cache alot. So I think a Module based approach is better, like you are already following. A Module that handles all the drawing in the GUI framework can utilize the CPU cache well better, reducing performance-headaches. There are, frankly better, solutions out there that do not need object orientation at all. So it is definitively doable.
@chudchadanstud
6 ай бұрын
And they were all horrible to use. Seriously have you actually used them? Why donyou think they were replaced in the first place
@user-uf4rx5ih3v
5 ай бұрын
Back in the day, most people used terminal applications not gui's. Building actual gui's was extremely painful, time consuming and expensive. The OO model was developed to deal with this problem. Initially OO was used in libraries that constructed objects and methods. This proved to be not so ergonomic and since people thought that gui's are the future, the model was built into languages like objective C, C++, Java and C#. Actually, the elm model is quite nice to use. It's not really functional, it didn't come from functional languages but it was easy to implement in functional languages like Haskell. Similarly, I guess it's also convenient in Rust? (I've never built a gui in Rust, so I don't know.)
@infeltk
Күн бұрын
Amiga first edition 1985. Windows - 1985. Definitely it is not "long time before". LOL
Sorry for nit pick. ReactJS isn’t a programming language -> 3:19
@RomanTchekashov
3 күн бұрын
It’s a programming language for people who previously used jQuery programming language;))
I really don't understand why you compare Rust and React. Rust is low level programming language, React is a js library. How do you compare these two ? I have never seen comparison between C and React or C++ and React. Maybe your next video title will be comparison between HTML and Java 🤣
Fantastic video. I’m not sure I fully followed everything, but I think that’s mostly on me. Do you think the issues you raise are those that UI developers have to contend with or just framework developers? I feel like procedural macros fill in some of the gap left by the lack of inheritance
Can you elaborate more on the Entity Component Structure method? What sort of GUI library for Rust does this? Did you have to write up your own? If so does this mean other people writing Rust GUI should stick to the Elm-inspired libraries like Iced?
@thekwoka4707
Жыл бұрын
Bevy does. And you can do GUI in bevy without it needing to be a game...
Wanted to ask, what do you use to create your videos? (this one looks very cool, congratz)
I've not run into these "big headaches" writing GUIs in Rust. Event handling and message passing is so easy in Rust. My GUIs typically use a tree structure and the root component has an event loop where it receives events and dispatches them to sub-components that handle the events that they can handle in their event loops. No need for interior-mutability.
@MrChelovek68
4 ай бұрын
Why you don't use for this brainfuck?
You can do a lot more in rust than is apparent right out of the box. I bet you could theoretically do classes with inheritance using macros and you can use data structure with interior mutability as mentioned in the video or if you really want to you could “unsafe{}” it all and build your own model on top of that. You could even implement a garbage collector if you really wanted to. It’s just that rust can give you some nice guarantees if you figure out how to do things according to the safe borrow rules, and to be honest, you might have to do a lot of work to get some of those other things going, on par with designing your own programming language. To be fair, gui libraries are almost that anyway, with how much terminology is required to reason about them. There is a lot of experimentation going on in the gui space currently and it’s very fun to follow. Even if it might be worth while to wait a bit before betting on rust gui if you want to do anything really serious, I don’t think things will stay that way for long.
@user-uf4rx5ih3v
5 ай бұрын
The thing is that macros are really difficult to use in my opinion. They're best left as "magic" that the programmer doesn't have to think about. What you're proposing is can only work with heavy use of macros and traits, some of the hardest things in the language.
@HyperFocusMarshmallow
5 ай бұрын
@@user-uf4rx5ih3v I think I agree. (Guessing you refer to the part about classes and inheritance). I don’t recall the whole context of why I wrote the comment. Using macros can be easy, it can be hard. It depends on the macro. Writing simple ones is quite easy but requires a slightly different skill than using them. Writing macros that would do classes and inheritance… would take some work for sure. I’m not advocating that everyone and their grandma should do this on their own in their projects. I’m probably not advocating that people should do it at all. But just in principle if someone does write some set of macros that allow code that works like classes with inheritance, you could just add that library to your project and use the macros. Maybe there is a design that would make the user experience easy. At least as easy as the notion of classes and inheritance, which maybe isn’t simple in itself. I’m not advocating this. It might be a terrible idea. Probably is. You can tell me if it sounds like we agree. 👍
Currently I am starting to create a VST3 (or maybe Clap) DAW plugin featuring a GUI in Rust. Hence the HUI framework needs to get the Window context from the DAW via the plugin API. Once I am able to a non-GUI plugin I will start evaluating GUI frameworks, supposedly starting with ICED.
I am a C++ programmer, but I am looking for ways to implement GUI with an ECS as well. I believe it can be done in a way that code is fast, and API is easy for the user.
I love your channel and look forward to warp, hope it can have cute background imgs like Windows terminal 🙏
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
Thank you!
Both pleasant to watch and listen, and most of all it's spot on topic
Traits are interfaces. Rc, Arc, and RefCell exist. If you can't figure out how to make a UI with those tools, you suck at Rust. There are tons of Rust UI libs. The way you hide the complexity is by just keeping it inside the library.
This is why Tom is a genius and you should build your app on JSDL
@saysthetedd
Жыл бұрын
We need to stop wearing this joke down to the bone
As a mathematician I come from c++, python (ML and DL) . Love rust just because ML and DL will need to be productionised at some point.
@RuturajZadbuke
3 күн бұрын
Unfortunately Rust Cuda is a bit lacking right now right? Do you know of any good projects that are interfacing with GPUs better?
Found your channel from coding with Lewis and I subscribed 🙌 The quality of video is 🔥 The knowledge given is 🔥 Thanks and bring more content like this
@aryanshaw616
Жыл бұрын
Bhai ye uski kuch lgti kya editing quite similar h ?
@arghyadas4138
Жыл бұрын
@@aryanshaw616 baat toh hai Kya malum
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
So glad to hear this. Thank you!
Like the explanation of OOP in UI rendering
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
Hope the animation helped 👍
I didn't quite catch the relationship between hierarchy in OOP, the component tree (a.k.a. tree data structure), and the lack of inheritance in Rust. It's completely possible to build a tree structure in Rust, just like your example for React or how it's done in Angular. If the lack of a common type is the problem, you can use "dyn Component" which should work as a common trait for all components. I'd appreciate if you could elaborate a bit on this, because the way it's explained in the video might misinform people.
@thekwoka4707
Жыл бұрын
Same. I don't get how rust being different is harder...
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
Hey! Thanks for asking. If you want more technical details and code snippets, check our our written blog here: www.warp.dev/blog/why-is-building-a-ui-in-rust-so-hard
@thfsilvab
Жыл бұрын
@@warpdotdev thank you a lot for clarifying!! The article explains more clearly the problem, and even addressed possible solutions. Coding in Rust is indeed challenging after years of the Java way of OO in the majority of OO languages, while many frameworks do exactly what is described in the article (mutate the base class property for example), many would say it's a bad approach of doing things, and while there are workarounds for that in Rust, I don't think it'd be idiomatic. Awesome work on this!
@timwhite1783
6 ай бұрын
You were a lot more polite than I think I would've been. Was about to point out that class hierarchy is a different concept to the tree like DOM structure react uses. You could implement such a tree like structure in Rust but admittedly there still are some somewhat unwieldy aspects to that due to how borrowing and ownership works in rust (in all likelihood you'll struggle to create a tree which you can modify easily and safely)
Omg someone mentioned Elm! I work with Elm quite a headache tbh.
I agree on everything in this video. Building GUI with Rust frameworks/tools is over ambitious. Perhaps it's too early for that. I separate FE from BE. I use Go/Rust for BE and React/Flutter for FE - the best so far IMO.
@AdamFiregate
5 ай бұрын
Spot on. I also built separately, FE in JS and BE in Rust.
@xshiftyeuw
5 ай бұрын
have you ever tried leptos+htmx (for rust) or templ+htmx (for go)?
@carlynghrafnsson4221
Күн бұрын
Rust -> wasm, wasm-pack
@Alex-hr2df
Күн бұрын
@@carlynghrafnsson4221 Overkill for very little gain
Very well informed video!
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
Glad you think so!
I love your content, thank you so much for sharing it,
Excellent video!
What about Druid framework for Rust GUIs? Are they any good?
ID is the short form of identity. It's ironic that identity ID is used in warp at 8:10 that literally means Identity Identity 😅
Thanks for explaining Rust
probably a stupid question but why not use something else to build the ui and use rust for everything else ?
@lardosian
8 ай бұрын
Not a stupid question! Maybe the video is trying showcase doing full stack with only Rust.
I agree overall, most of the time and energy is spent on making Rust a good backend or systems programming language instead of a good front end language. Rust feels underdeveloped in this regard
@BboyKeny
Жыл бұрын
I think web assembly is also a bottleneck for this. Although in my opinion leptos and yew are also nice flavours if you know solid or react/next. We might get a really nice full stack solution from Rust. Meanwhile the tooling for the frontend is still being innovated on through Rust at the moment.
@ironhammer4095
10 ай бұрын
@@BboyKeny Thumbs up for mentioning Leptos!
Linus Trovald in a recent interview said that, Rust is not used in Linux Kernel as stated at the beginning of this video. There’s no need actually to replace C by Rust. Since C is a better language when it comes to interact with hardware
@jayachandpranav
2 ай бұрын
Bro it's open-source, just take a look
@svenyboyyt2304
2 ай бұрын
Rust isn't in the kernel, but it is better.
Rust probably has more object-oriented features than your average Java clone. There are traits (powerful interfaces) instead of abstract classes, and "inheritance" is achieved through them; that is, every struct that implements a trait X de facto "inherits" it so it can be dynamically dispatched to a trait X object. It's really just a more recent and flexible approach.
Interesting take. I'm new to rust and really enjoy it. Now that I've thouroughly indoctrinated in the crustacean ways. I'm in the mood for some criticism and learning about the pitfalls of rust. Most videos I found were just masked rust propaganda or people that didn't seem to get the point of rust. Glad to have bumped into this video. This was a breath of fresh air with a well explained and pretty unbiased. That gets you a like! And the policeman crab with the moustache earned you a sub.🦀
I would very much want to hug wichu for a better understanding of this lang u seem so cool like knowing so much about neural formation of this lang 🎉
Yeah, during the whole video I was just thinking: ".... we can just do it like elm does" I wasn't expecting ecs tho, even though I got interested in rust because of bevy
Honestly I'm not building UI myself. Using Bevy's ui for ui and egui for debug ui tools.
How is writing GUI libraries in Rust more difficult than writing them in plain C? Most GUI libraries were written originally in C, not even in C++, and in C you don't have any OOP.
Great video.
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
Thanks!
I've seen people write an assembly or another language block inside rust code, maybe GUI is best done that way. Like letting rust do what it does the best, run core code really fast and safe, but separating the GUI to something evil rust shouldn't touch. After all, isn't multiple languages in a project a very common thing already? Like most of the time for web stuff you just have to step into the javascript world to save yourself from more pain.
The video is much better than the catchy title suggest
Would be great to compare it to something modern in web development not something like React that has so many essential issues, where the main one is the whole render model...
We could also build the UI with Raylib. Doesn't mean we should
SwiftUI is all built with structs. I imagine you could do something similar in rust.
I guess I'm just missing the point. If you want to build a user-mode app with a GUI, you use C# or . Why would you even consider Rust or C or C++? I mean, I guess if you're writing code for a super resource-constrained system, but that's a pretty specialized niche. Microsoft is using Rust for what it's best at: system level programming. They're doing Azure development in Rust, as well as re-writing some of the Windows system binaries in Rust. And if a developer doesn't want to worry about memory management, they have no business writing a device driver or a kernel binary. This just seems like a moot point. It's addressing a straw-man scenario. Or, I guess I should allow for the possibility that the world is a weird place, and there are strange people who do inexplicable things. Are there really people that voluntarily choose to write GUI apps in Rust? What's their motivation? The extra performance simply doesn't matter, at all. On the other hand, is there anyone seriously arguing that Rust isn't a very valid, and perhaps even objectively correct, choice for systems level programming? I mean, I did my share of kernel development in C 25+ years ago, and to this day it's the language that I am most comfortable in, but surely even the most die-hard C or C++ developer would allow that Rust is at least a nice option?
@taylrthegreat
4 ай бұрын
I want everything written in rust just so we can say it was written in rust
I wouldn't want to create a ui in rust, just a backend that returns json data, and I would delegate the front-end to any framework of your choice, React, Vue, Astro, Svelte, Flutter, you name it
@alarie0
3 ай бұрын
this is what tauri does
I think Rust object composition clearly works. You good pointed to some potentially problems, but there are no such problems in a reality.
I only have Web UI experience, mostly in angular 7-15. Flexibility is the main thing to get from a frame work. Ive worked with symfony/ twig, laravel/ blade, alpineJS, and xamarin. I like a framework to handle routing, navigation, etc. But in the end vanilla JS with JSDocs is just best for DOM manipulation. As much as Javascript drives me insane, I always get to a point to where I need plain 'ol Javascript to accomplish something special. If you want a custom ckeditor, then you still have use vanilla JS. Angular 15 compiling to JS still isn't perfect. I'm eyeing Phoenix + AlpineJS for my next project.
i like warp, but why go the route of accounts? just curious
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
Hey! Good question. The primary reason is that login allows us to build cloud-oriented features that make the terminal have a concept of “your stuff” and “your team’s stuff” - for example Block Sharing. This is the same reason other collaborative apps like Figma and Github require login - identity is the basis of building cloud-native apps. That said, we understand the desire to try Warp before logging in, and are exploring product experiences that will allow users to preview Warp before signup.
@rossdafodil7931
Жыл бұрын
@@warpdotdev that makes a lot of sense. it was always kind of a turn off for me when i was trying warp, but ill def give it another try now that i know its not JUST telemetry. thank you very much and keep up the good work
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
@@rossdafodil7931 Nice! By the way, our telemetry is opt-out. Here's the documentation on how to disable it, if you want. docs.warp.dev/getting-started/privacy#how-to-disable-telemetry-and-crash-reporting
We're evaluating Rust as a possibility in modernizing a huge CLI system written in C and TCL. (It is very very old). So far I've found it to be unfamiliar and difficult. It is not really OO and not really functional. It has no garbage collection. It has very high interest among developers for some reason and is the reason we are considering it because we could more easily attract top software engineers. (Our team is entirely made up of 60ish year olds)
I was thinking how you could look into the camera while talking so people feel like you are talking to them... How about you create a dead zone in the middle of the monitor. Set up your camera in the dead zone. 😊
ECS outside of gamedev. Is this a dream?
5:28 What safety issues are you talking about?
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
Good question! We talk about some of the safety concerns of using interior mutability in our blog here: www.warp.dev/blog/why-is-building-a-ui-in-rust-so-hard
I'm using rust a lot in the backend, it's a life saver for me. To build uis for the web though... Not so much. Also if you need to build desktop apps rust is definitely a good choice to use in the place of c++.
@snapcaselled1201
Жыл бұрын
what do you mean? backend = web right?
@coffee-is-power
Жыл бұрын
@@snapcaselled1201 yes
@christianm4906
7 ай бұрын
I don't think Rust even comes close to C and C++ in terms of desktop applications for 2024. That situation might change in a decade, or perhaps it will never happen. Just look at the most popular desktop environments for Linux, such as KDE and GNOME; most of them use C and C++ libraries like Qt and GTK. Despite efforts to port these libraries to Rust, it remains-and will likely always be-a second-class language in this domain.
@coffee-is-power
7 ай бұрын
@@christianm4906 people use html, css and js to build UIs, which absolutely sucks, rust still better than that
Am already learning Rust . It’s hard but worth it . Am already intermediate
Thanks teacher🇮🇳
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
No problem!
I'm learning Dioxus at the moment
Are we gui yet? Close enough...
Why is Warp, a terminal, proprietary!?
Why you did not went with Electron? I launched Hyper and on startup it takes same amount of memory as Warp
It hearkens to a reductive existential contradiction of rust's very safety. Does it mean that one of these methods simply has to "admit" and "embrace" the inevitable? It seems important to choose tools that embrace the inevitable - if it's the inevitable.
What I got from this video, is that if you try to do things the way you did them in React, you'll have a bad time. If you do them the way Rust wants you to, you'll have a good time.
Js is for the Dom and it should stay that way. Each language has its strengths and rusts' is in threading and memory management, along with a few others from what I know now
Tauri isnt to bad for Devs, coming from JS background. I have focus to Tauri with Svelte, as it seems to me quite all in one thing to me. If you do perhaps know like QT for C++. I bet, Rust does have something similar. However, I would not blame Rust for being not good for UI, as it probably offers to many confusing ways to do stuff, if you think in a monolith. Even your MVC approach is unsure to me, as it might lead to blowing up the code.
So, instead of inheritance you make composition... I think?
The command line is a tool that is ripe for change.
Then I guess we need to wait for Iced
What about Zig language?
The lack of class hierarchy doesn’t mean you can’t organize components in a tree structure, huh? You could easily define a trait with componentDidMount() and similar functions, even a children() function that returns an impl Iterator
Why did you build warp with rust?
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
In short, we chose Rust because of its speed and also its strong developer community (for example, using crates.io for package management was a breeze and our entire team onboarded very quickly with tools like Rustlings). More importantly, Rust has a pretty extensive platform support--allowing us to write in a single language and then build for Mac, Linux, Windows, and ultimately the web by compiling to WASM. If you want to read more about how Warp was built, check our our blog here: www.warp.dev/blog/how-warp-works
Egui while complex internally is incredibly simple to use and it's pure rust as far as i know.
@alarie0
3 ай бұрын
its runs off wgpu or opengl c++ wrappers i think but it is quite well developed
So rust is basically golang without garbage collector?
cool video
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
Thanks!
This video was fantastic in content but visually a little bothersome. Making text hard to read (script vs plain) and then animating it (pulse) and not leaving it on screen long enough really took away from what you were trying to say imo.
It is almost as the person in this video doesn't know object oriented programming. It also looks like it doesn't understand how to handle memory allocation.
Why don’t you guys open source your GUI
Why'd you use it for UI?
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
In short, we chose Rust because of its speed and also its strong developer community (for example, using crates.io for package management was a breeze and our entire team onboarded very quickly with tools like Rustlings). More importantly, Rust has a pretty extensive platform support--allowing us to write in a single language and then build for Mac, Linux, Windows, and ultimately the web by compiling to WASM. If you want to read more about how Warp was built, check our our blog here: www.warp.dev/blog/how-warp-works
We need more sandwiches in modern UI tbh
@warpdotdev
Жыл бұрын
We agree!
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:31 🧐 Building a graphical user interface (GUI) in Rust is challenging due to Rust's unique features like ownership and mutability rules. 03:44 🔄 Rust's lack of object-oriented programming makes it difficult to create a top-level component that controls a GUI tree, unlike languages like React. 06:51 🧠 One solution for Rust GUI development is adopting the ELM architecture, which consists of model, view, and update, or using an entity component system (ECS) architecture. 08:20 🌐 In Warp, they implement an ECS-style approach with a system that owns components and maps their relationships, providing a way to create a GUI tree without relying on inheritance. Made with HARPA AI
Ok. Now Let's Get Rusty. 😊
The title of this video is misleading. Also React is not a language.
With traits , I don’t need abstract classes and inheritance . Other programming languages add bunch of rubbish we don’t even need
If I can't build my GUI, I will use a TUI.
I don't think some of the characterizations stated here are true about Rust, and even the implications about programming in general are a little skewed. Rust not being "OOP" is quite far from accurate as it is about as OOP as C++ and Java meaningfully are -- which is to say that programmers who know true OOP know that even C++ and Java don't even qualify. Needing to use another paradigm that isn't "in vogue" with current frameworks shouldn't be considered a bad thing for a software engineer, it is just a different way of modeling the problem. ELM architecture pretty much seems like MVC to me, but I'm far from a real UI dev. ECS is absolutely an approach software engineers should know if they are writing applications where performance matters -- and hint: performance pretty much always matters. The only question is 1) if your company is wise enough to look at CPU/memory costs for servers and know you're leaving a ton of it on the table, or 2) if you have competing (client) software and customers will see how much slower and memory demanding your application runs versus another. ECS is very well used in game development as the way "OOP" has made a lot of engineers think about managing data (and indirectly memory) is actually very terribly inefficient when you have multiple subsystems working with the same "object" in your OOP mind, but in reality, the game's subsystems only need to see what they want to see. What I mean is, your game logic has an understand of an entity in the world in terms of gameplay logic and collision detection; the graphics rendering system only cares about the graphics data associated with the object; the sound system only cares about the sound data associated with the object; maybe the netcode doesn't give a crap about the object etc etc. Rather than have a single object "manage" all of it's own stuff as if should maintain all of those references, it's existence is actually defined through those subsystems understanding the association of an identity to the subsystem encapsulated (managed) data. In otherwords, the "Sonic" sprite doesn't reference the fact that it is drawn with "sonic.png," it exists with global ID 112233, and references texture ID 55667 which the graphics resource manager knows was loaded from file "sonic.png" and if you opened in an image editor, you would see the Sonic sprite. It's a classic newbie approach to think that a gameobject "subclass" needs to exist for Sonic, and somewhere in that source code, you'll read the fact that it uses texture "sonic.png." You can make a small game with that approach, but at some level of scale, you'll quickly run into a class explosion and realize how much you're repeating yourself. ECS is also beneficial because it's SoA rather than AoS -- that is, structure of arrays rather than array of structures. When your graphics system needs to rip through 10k objects out of 100k global objects and render those that are visibly relevant, better that it actually runs through an array of 10k relevant objects, than 100k objects through "polymorphism" and 90k objects just have a do nothing render()/draw() method. That's 90k bounces around in memory and your CPU cache is just constantly being trashed. The real reason Rust isn't a great langauge today for web GUIs is because it simply isn't mature yet. Javascript pretty much exists soley for the purpose of web UI dev and has been for decades and Rust is just arriving. Rust may not even the best use case for front end stuff, but as a general programming language people would like to prove it so projects don't have so much language + tooling mixing requiring too much knowledge spread for a dev team. Plus it has other benefits, that may pay off in the long run if the up front isn't too high.
After rust I am fighting significantly less with my gf, now I fight with borrow checker
I've been attempting to find compelling reasons to learn Rust, but it seems to be a challenging programming language in many practical aspects. It will likely be another unsuccessful effort to replace C and C++.
The biggest issue is no inheritance. This is what happens when you adopt a fad. "Inheritance is bad because it is okay!"
i think you shouldn't swap to camera if you're reading a script, just looks like you have lazy eye, but you're really interesting to listen to otherwise
sudo make me a sammich UI object
👍
game dev and web dev is the thing that will propel rust
Does this mean you and the warp team regret using Rust to build your app?
This is actually the opposite of my expectation about Rust. The reason why I want to change from kotlin to rust, because I want to use pointer but in a safe way. Pointer to a structure or class is better than inheritance.. Why do you think placing a pointer to the event loop is inefficient?