Everyones forgetting the biggest advantage of arm launchers. They look way cooler than VLS.

@yeabutwecouldbefreer

6 ай бұрын

In the way that a person without a helmet looks cool on a motorcycle to some people, older Russian ships (aka Moskva) tend to explode like matches with all the powerful missiles being unarmored above the deck. Warheads on other peoples foreheads, not on your own. Also the potential for small arms fire to bring down a billion dollar ship is just dumb.

@ajw5032

6 ай бұрын

​@@yeabutwecouldbefreerarm launchers keep their missiles below deck

@yeabutwecouldbefreer

6 ай бұрын

@@ajw5032 not when in weapons ready position, and/because it takes time .. precious seconds from decision making to fire. Additionally there is no way to fire at more than 4 targets at a time(fore and aft) when using the twin arm bandits, hence the reason why they were abandoned with the advent of Aegis and fixed position phased array radars. Also I would love to see a arm launched space fairing SM3, it would have to be huge!

@letsget100subswithoutconte4

6 ай бұрын

I like both

@dundonrl

6 ай бұрын

​@yeabutwecouldbefreer The first 5 AEGIS Cruisers used the Mk-26 twin armed launchers, and yes they could put more than 4 birds in the air at one time.

A major point not mentioned is that it's even _more_ difficult to reload the magazine of the older arm launchers (in VLS, the launcher _is_ the magazine, so it's more reliable and compact enabling a larger loadout).

These ships carry more missiles than any of the previous ships that had below-deck magazines. If they think they need more missiles the solution is to add more launch cells. A loaded cell doesn't take up more space than a reload as the reloads fit snugly in the launcher and would take up just about as much space if stowed on the ship.

@pixelmaster98

6 ай бұрын

the point is that you'd have a supply ship carrying the ammunition. That way, the logistics ship can travel between the destroyer and ports that have ammo stocks, instead of the destroyer wasting time traveling.

@vaakdemandante8772

6 ай бұрын

Not really. Additional rockets / containers take up space below the deck but the launcher takes up space ON the deck, so its limiting factor is volume vs space. I do agree however that the cells should be rearmed from within the ship's hull / storage holding and not by an outside crane.

@dtsai

6 ай бұрын

China's Type 055 destroyer has 112 VLS. We need a cheaper version of Rapid Dragon concept that can be placed on top of ships in case they need to reload fast! Just have them on deposable boats that serve as missiles truck drones that go ahead of the Navy to take out the 1st wave of missles.

@jonathanmora9398

6 ай бұрын

What are you trying to say after adding more tubes like the reasoning doesn’t make sense how it’s worded. When you say a loaded cell doesn’t take more space than a reload what do you mean because that doesn’t make sense

@dwwolf4636

6 ай бұрын

Or Octa pack ESSM. Or multi-pack a boosted ESSM to imcrease range over base line ESSM while having more magazine depth.

Regardless of what the ocean does: It is not realistic to reload VLS when still in a hostile environment anyway. It's impossible to have people on the deck near the VLS, working on a Cell , when the ship itself still has to have its other cells ready to fire to intercept a threat. One could argue that they could do replenish at the front cell while the rear cell is taking care of the defence, but in a pinch the ship cannot take half its arsenal offline in a combat zone.. That's just not acceptable. So the entire ship first has to egress the combat zone

@LordOceanus

6 ай бұрын

Going off that point its been an exceptional rarity for any ship to be resupplied while in contact for all of history. Your logistics vessels are too valuable to risk in such a mission and a ship with half its missiles is still more useful than one stuck to the side of a support vessel

@ashleygoggs5679

6 ай бұрын

most ships have 2 VLS cells so if this was the case they would disarm one and arm the other therefore the crew working on it wouldnt be at risk. But also if you are reloading that means your missiles are out thus there being no risk at all to crew rearming.

@ShuRugal

6 ай бұрын

Yeah, about the only thing you could do for "quickly" reloading a VLS cell would be to design a set of guide rail adapters which act like a "funnel" to capture the bottom end of a container and quickly maneuver it to the cell mouth. Perhaps a self-erecting gantry (like an ICBM erector) could be designed with a 2-axis traversing trolley, so you slide the container horizontally into the erector, erect it, then traverse it over the cell and slot it in place, but the mechanism would be very bulky and eat up a lot of deck space when not in use.... and you would still have to shut down your VLS array to use it.

@Nediac800

6 ай бұрын

Ideally every threat should be taken care of with just the missiles on board the vessels in the zone

@ShuRugal

6 ай бұрын

@@Nediac800 and that's basically the purpose of the VLS design: to enable reliable sustained fire of all missiles aboard the ship. This is the main reason that the idea of a ship self-reloading VLS cells doesn't make sense. If the ship has the cubage to store reloads, it also has the cubage to store them upright for launching. That is to say, you'd have to store reloads on the exterior of the ship, because all the interior space you could put one in already hosts a launch cell. And sorting explosives on the exterior of a combat vessel is a nonstarter.

I'd hate to be standing on top of one of those things when they decided to launch.

@rykehuss3435

6 ай бұрын

ride of a lifetime

@musicduck-a

6 ай бұрын

Same

@daemonite06

6 ай бұрын

Last and fastest ride of your life.

@TheFriskyComiskey

6 ай бұрын

I like the smell of gasoline 😮

@Owlzz_

6 ай бұрын

​@@TheFriskyComiskeyor solid rocket fuel 😮

An old RD/OS/EW guy, now a retired chief engineer (systems/software) from a Fortune 100 defense contractor. You need to think of the larger strategic logistical picture here. The Burkes and Ticos provide 2 inherent capabilities - the Aegis networked sensor system and the weapons platform with weapons. If a ship goes Winchester, you are also removing a serious sensor platform from the area to reload. It's better to use an arsenal ship concept to augment the sensor platforms with additional weapons, and shuttle them for reloading. You can have rather simple 100 to 300-cell small decks providing a robust mixed bag inventory. Also, for the most part - let the USAF utilize their cargo aircraft for cruise missle Rapid Dragon deployment, and specialize the arsenal ships for S2A/S2Space and S2S along with ASROC mixed bag loadouts. There is no perfect solution here, but there are much better solutions available than what is currently in use. The other major con is the floating weapon inventory. You do not want a Zumwalt situation where you have the guns on deck but are unable to afford the ammunition it uses, in sufficient quantities. You have to be able to afford several of these hulls with their contingent 200+ weapons loaded out and ready to use, on station, while having foward deployed reload inventory. Another problem not addressed is the limited number of cells on any single hull. Having the ship go winchester will essentially sink that ship (and its sensors). Having an arsenal ship available within the area, solves or at least postphones this problem till the opposition's airfields are taken out by RapidDragon and/or the SSGNs. At the start of the conflict having the second arsenal ship ship leave port to relieve the soon to be emptied arsenal ship on station will get ahead of the logistics cycle. The replacement arsenal ship can start to shoot as soon as it's near the combat area, while the empty transits back for reloading. You want the Burke's and Tico's to use their own cells as their last resort. You have to think/game the entire situation through, just not the middle of the problem. This is a full up integrated end to end problem. You also need to bring on all available assets - in order to consider the best possible load out configurations and weapon utilization policies.

@christianvalentin5344

6 ай бұрын

The USN has said it wants more unmanned vessels in the fleet. Having a large number of unmanned small arsenal ships might be what they’re thinking.

@watwat9864

6 ай бұрын

Man's shamed the Zumwalt in so many ways, I cannot imagine the pain that the USN has to go through to combat the 055. The DDG(X) is literally using the concepts of the 055, and semi Arsenal ship as well.

@himemjam

6 ай бұрын

This answer really shows why we've spent so much on beam weapons and rail gun development. I wonder why we're not closer to mounting them on ships? Some questions: Would the arsenal ship concept be submersible? Supposing we could get Arsenal Ships online, how do we even use the resources if AEGIS has a data-link capacity problem? Is AEGIS at end of life?

@fidjeenjanrjsnsfh

6 ай бұрын

You mean a Carronade-type IFS? Basically a container ship filled to the brim with VLS and nothing else? That would be cool. Cooler if it can perform reloads too.

@langdons2848

6 ай бұрын

Yes, cheap, plentiful arsenal ships do feel like the right answer. That way the ships providing the fire control could treat their own missile load as the "last line of defence" to protect the ship itself after all of the arsenal ships have run dry (while getting the hell out of Dodge).

One thing that was not mentioned in the video - reloading the magazine on an traditional armed launcher is just as slow, if not more so, than a VLS.

Imagine how much this has been studied in attempts to find better solutions by the Navy, the contractors, and all of the subcontractors.

As a European living in a landlocked country, this information was very useful. Very interesting video tho.

@Crossloxeverything

6 ай бұрын

you can t predict the future

@Crossloxeverything

6 ай бұрын

Your country may get a coastline even if it is 12 miles

@StruggleGaming

6 ай бұрын

I wish I had healthcare, but this is a neat alternative. Like fireworks but it's celebrating not being defeated.

@samsonsoturian6013

6 ай бұрын

MRLS systems have the same problem. That was a big thing in Israel where their SAM rockets did wonders, but they had to be manually reloaded so rockets made it through during the lucky window.

@jurajsintaj6644

6 ай бұрын

@@StruggleGaming The us still spends nearly twice as much on healthcare than it does on the military. The per capita spending on healthcare is nearly triple that of France, which has a very well developed public healthcare system. The problem isn't a lack of money, its that the money is getting spent on insurance companies and not hospitals and doctors.

Mk-41 VLS certainly can be reloaded and I have been part of a crew that did so. On our 1988/89 deployment aboard the ammunition ship USS Kiska we re-loaded the aft VLS of USS Antietam while underway in the Pacific. We brought Antietam five loaded SM-2 canisters and brought back five empties as retrograde. We did this with a CH-46D helicopter. We delivered the canisters to the main deck between the aft VLS and aft 5in/54 cal gun. We used a long rope hanging from the VLS canister so deck crew could keep the canister from spinning as we set it on deck. We had to make the lifts at minimum fuel because the missile and canister weighted about 4,200 lbs. After delivering the full canister we would land on Kiska and take a splash of fuel rotors turning. After a few minutes the Antietam crew had an empty canister for us to pick up. We'd lift off Kiska, pick up the empty and return to our flight deck before bringing Antietam another SM-2 in its canister. We transferred five SM-2s that way on afternoon after an exercise where Antietam expended some of her SM-2s. Back then one group of four VLS cells was replaced with a crane system that was designed to allow underway replenishment of the VLS system from either an alongside ammo ship or, as we did, using a VERTREP helicopter. My understanding is the Navy removed the cranes to allow their ships to carry four more Tomahawks, since the CONOPS of the Gulf Wars, war in Afghanistan and GWOT operations in general allowed ships to reload pier side in Bahrain.

@Oberon4278

6 ай бұрын

So you sling loaded munitions, at sea, and also did hot refuels. That's three dangerous things combined. I'm surprised any commander would sign off on it. Oh wait this was the 80s. Different time back then. Bigger balls.

@philsalvatore3902

6 ай бұрын

@@Oberon4278 ??? That is how it is still done. Other than the helicopter used nothing has changed and it's not especially dangerous. You could drop the whole canister on deck and aside from banging things up nothing bad would happen. Find out what "insensitive munitions" are. Hot refueling is likewise standard practice both ashore and at sea. You are not going to shut down to refuel. Big waste of time. If the ship had too small a flight deck for our helo, example most frigates, we could hover over the flight deck, lower our rescue hoist to the deck, hoist the fuel hose up into the cabin using and plug the dry break connection in to a refueling station inside the cabin. We would just fly along in a hover matching the ship's speed as we refueled. When topped up our crewman would disconnect the fuel hose and hoist it back down to the flight deck. Then we'd depart. Easy. Did that almost every day underway. Find out what HIFR, Hover In Flight Refueling is. Ashore we'd land at a set of helo pads by the fuel farm, taxi into one of the fuel pits and hot refuel before taxiing over to our hanger and shutting down.

@Oberon4278

6 ай бұрын

@@philsalvatore3902 I was a weapons technician for the Apache in the Army, so I'm familiar with a lot of what you said. It must be different in the Navy because we didn't do hot refuels if it could be avoided. Don't get me wrong, they weren't vanishingly rare, and we knew what and how to do it, including reloading/rearming during a hot refuel. But we only did it during training, or if there were troops in contact who needed air support. Otherwise the risk was considered too high. I guess it should have been obvious that the munitions are safe until armed/fired. The same is true for the 30mm shells that the Apache fires. You can put them in a literal meat grinder and nothing happens. If you get the timing wrong on the gun, it will chew up the rounds and drop them out the bottom. It should go without saying that I never got the timing wrong 😉 I actually got an extremely low-ranking medal (Army Achievement Medal) for being one of the best technicians on our deployment. Caught a lot of errors other people missed that would have been a problem.

@philsalvatore3902

6 ай бұрын

@@Oberon4278 When the carrier deploys the ammo upload is accomplished at sea from an ammunition ship or now it would be a T-AKE. The carrier pulls up alongside the T-AKE, three STREAM rigs on the port side of the T-AKE feed ammo to the carrier while aft, two helicopters in what we called a "Daisy Chain" were moving ammo from the T-AKE's flight deck to the carrier's flight deck. Both ships have fleets of battery electric and CNG powered fork lifts (some munitions were sensitive to electronic fields so they were handled with CNG powered fork lifts). We could move a lot of freight that way, 30 seconds deck to deck, about 3,000 lbs per lift. It would take 12-14 hours of solid flying to upload the carrier. Naturally we hot refueled and changed crews with rotors turning. Same thing in reverse when the carrier comes back off deployment, all the ammo is downloaded from the carrier to the T-AKE. Sometimes we'd fly out and rendezvous with the inbound and outbound carriers and simply transfer the ammo from one to the other. Those days took longer because we didn't have the T-AKE with its three STREAM rigs moving ammo. It was all done by our two CH-46Ds. It's the last bastion of stick and rudder flying in the Navy. Look up videos for HC-11 USS Sacramento. You should be able to find videos us doing VERTEP with the CH-46D.

@Oberon4278

6 ай бұрын

@@philsalvatore3902 See, this is why I wish I'd joined the Navy. I had no idea what kind of operations, history, etc. you guys have, I just associated the Navy with that Village People song.

Another reliability bonus of the VLS is that even if a cell is damaged (let's assume some spy welded the door shut) the other cells aren't affected by this

Always impressed with the stock footage you guys source! The fact you were able to find VLS footage in the lab is crazy.

@NotWhatYouThink

6 ай бұрын

Thanks! Yeah this video was especially quite footage heavy. Glad to hear you enjoyed it!

Love the little mention in the backround at the german ship incident. "Oh Scheiße!" (You might have guessed it but: "Oh shit!""

I've experienced similar issues when working on development jet engines. One solution is to use a portable cart that can be temporarily bolted to the deck over the empty slot. Hydraulic rams could be used on that cart to lift the container vertically and also lower it into the slot. That design could then be made compact for storage.

@bigfutus

6 ай бұрын

My thoughts exactly, ditch cable cranes for anything hydraulic

@CrispyChristieMAC

6 ай бұрын

@@bigfutus Exactly, missiles are the top priority yet they're able to only load 90 and they have to basically go to port once they're exhausted of their munition (exaggerating but still). I don't understand why they're not broken down into larger magazines either to remove and load many at a time. I almost feel like they should have a mechanism that you could put 1 or all 90 in that is prepared on the logistic ship, then the entire contraption is lifted and set on the deck bolted into place (or pressed) so it achieved relative velocity to the ship and then an arm comes out grabbing missiles off the magazine rack and slots them into place (and picks up the empties). I understand I'm not a genius, but if we can land rockets that go into space on the ocean, we can find a more effective way of transporting munition at sea then a early 1900s sea crane.

@Kuba-th6bm

6 ай бұрын

When I look at these launchers I think of chernobyl and the machine that replaced fuel rods. Maybe something like this would do the job well.

@philsalvatore3902

5 ай бұрын

@@CrispyChristieMAC Weight. An SM-2 in its canister weighs 4,200 lbs. I have lifted them with a CH-46D but we had to be at minimum fuel to be able to lift that much in warm humid conditions. A modern MH-60S could probably lift more since it has a lot more horsepower than the old Phrog. The maximum weight of a STREAM Rig used for alongside UNREP is 6,000 pounds, though there is a program to increase this to 12,000 across the UNREP fleet. Those weigh limits matter.

@CrispyChristieMAC

5 ай бұрын

@@philsalvatore3902 Fair enough, but I don't understand why a specialized logistic ship would not be designed that would pull up alongside the destroyer, latch into it (likely bolt in to ensure its perfectly stable in relation to the destroyer) then you spend time attaching a hydraulic lifting mechanism that would lift and push the entire magazine perfectly into place above the warship lowering them down. Weight at sea at this point is just a physics problem and this one seems solvable. Again, perhaps I'm full of shit but looking at it from an engineering perspective I can't imagine having a separate logistic vessel accompanying the fleet would be worse than craning them into place at the dock. And I can't see how, once connected together, moving small magazines of 4-6 (say 25,000 lb max) would be such a difficult feet. Just have the press push the magazine up, then across to the destroyer over the predetermined position and then have a mechanism that slowly lowers them into position. I'm sure it'd require more complexity, but again it definitely seem designable, and if its designable its usually achievable, can't imagine it being worse then craning.

I love your videos so much you have helped me develop a better knowledge of Navy and Airforce. Thank you truly thank you. Don't stop. :)

I was a SMT for this System as part of my time with Naval Sea Systems Command. This was my system. Many people don’t realize the logistical challenges when carrying munitions.

I can think of a few ways to make this reloadable. Namely utilizing rails and a reloading arm that hold the missile box with complete stability plus modifications on the holding boxes themselves. Though it would be a MASSIVE engineering challenge.

@blade990

6 ай бұрын

Was thinking the same, but more a connected chute that the crane can basically slide the bottom into and tension guide it via the attached cable into the slot. Have a wide enough gap, some safety lines and it's more than possible

@Matt-yg8ub

6 ай бұрын

With modern robotics, you could design a ship to switch out the canisters automatically.

They shelved the VLS cranes towards the end of my active duty time in the Navy. We never used them to lift canisters. However, the crane was very useful for prepping gas management in the modules beforehand. Though I can't say I missed having to maintain or stow that damn crane.

@kevinfisher1345

6 ай бұрын

They were so slow.

@philsalvatore3902

5 ай бұрын

@@kevinfisher1345 Fast enough for us to reload five SM-2s one afternoon. Took a couple of hours but it was our first time doing it. Certainly faster than sailing back to a possibly bombed out port to reload at a possibly damaged pier while maybe under attack by ballistic missiles. Darned it I would want to be tied to a pier at Guam reloading while Chinese missiles rained down.

@kevinfisher1345

5 ай бұрын

@@philsalvatore3902 "reload five SM-2s one afternoon" Ta for proving my point ;) It took us half day to go back to UAE and then another day to fully reload 60 cells. Could not do that with the strike down crane in that amount of time. ..... HOWEVER, I do get your point. We were in the Persian Gulf, not out in the ocean, and in an area with a lot of countries around and not just near some enemy country.

@philsalvatore3902

5 ай бұрын

@@kevinfisher1345 We had never done this before and by the third missile we were cracking them off smartly. When you do something repeatedly you get real good at it. We were noobs and so was the crew of Antietam. It was their first deployment. But we were learning fast, which was the whole point of us practicing this. WWII and Vietnam UNREPS took 12-14 hours sometimes and were all hands affairs. I have personally participated in lots of 12-14 hour ammo uploads of aircraft carriers at sea. Once upon a time in our Navy that was normal. In a naval war with China I would expect the same. Having to return to port to re-arm is going to take ships out of battle for more days than they will be in combat.

@kevinfisher1345

5 ай бұрын

@@philsalvatore3902 Ah the Antietam. Seen her lots. I was on the Foster.

Well done. Thank you.

10:56 please also note The airplane in this instance turned off its transponder indicating its civilian origins And for some reason never answered numerous radio calls warning it was in danger and needed to change course or acknowledge its existence. In other words it behaved like an attacking aircraft and with the combination of the mistake the operator made in noticing the airplane ascending added up to an attacking aircraft.

@genericadjectivenounname9001

10 күн бұрын

You should consider reviewing the Fogarty report as well as the ICAO report. The airliner was transmitting its civilian IFF mode 3 code the entire time, from take off to shoot down. Additionally, the US sailors on the USS Vincennes did not use the IFF code when identifying the craft, they only gave general flight condition as identifying info over the civilian emergency frequency. The only time the IFF code was used as identification during transmission was by the USS Sides less than one minute before the missiles launched. The ICAO report states that the warnings given over the radio used ground speed to identify craft, but pilots use indicated airspeed. The report gives nearly a 100 knot difference between the two during the weather and flight conditions for that day. The ships also did not explicitly state to "change course or be fired upon." The command given over the radio was "you are standing into danger and MAY (emphasis mine) be subject to USN defensive measures," followed by "advise change course to X." There is zero proof the airline pilots did anything wrong, but there is a lot of proof that the US Navy messed up repeatedly.

What I was trying to get at is this: Use the freighter as the dock with the crane that loads the destroyers with multi missile magazines in a few big crane lifts, instead of 96 separate small crane lifts. The freighter doesn't need the targeting systems or fighting crew, it just goes from ship to ship loading what they need and hiding the rest of the time.

@trolleriffic

6 ай бұрын

They did something similar with specialised tenders and floating dry docks for the Polaris submarines, but they operated as semi-permanent installations that were moored very close to naval bases in sheltered, very well-defended coastal waters of closely allied nations. Probably the most famous example is Holy Loch in Scotland and if you look at it on a map or satellite photo you can see why it was chosen. Waters like that can literally be like a mill pond in very calm weather, whereas the open ocean is far rougher even at the best of times. These ships would be priority targets at sea while also being slow and relatively undefended - problem would be where would they hide that would be safe, and could they get to and from the fleet's location in a short enough time to be useful?

I'm glad you made this - it needs to be known.

I'm sure the eventuality was considered but I'd still like to know why they don't use a manipulator instead of a crane. With proper engineering it could be able to safely store the capsule in the shaft even under the most extreme conditions simply because there would always be a rigid connection between the capsule and the deck.

@Kriss_L

6 ай бұрын

It just isn't a useful capability in the big picture.

@AC-yj8cx

6 ай бұрын

It'd require redesigning the vls cells. They'd need to take side loads, not just vertical loads. Could be done but not sure about the trade-off.

@Scudboy17

6 ай бұрын

On a ship at sea you want that flexibility. A solid armature would make it more difficult to exchange canisters between ships because any difference in their relative motion would cause the stiff manipulater to either bend in ways that would damage itself or cause what it is carrying to impact the other ship instead, and when dealing with explosive weaponry, thats a bad thing. Manipulators large enough to move canisters of that size will not be able to move fast enough to allow for quick reaction times. Physics is just not on the side of this idea.

@B.D.E.

5 ай бұрын

As someone else said because then you have a high risk of breaking while handling extremely expensive and extremely explosive weapons.

This is why I think naval guns will still have a place as a backup for when all VLS cells are spent or to degrade a target ships point defences so the missiles have a higher chance to hit.

@sage5296

6 ай бұрын

good luck getting that close to anything tho. There's a reason that carriers have only been sunk by battleships like a couple times, whereas they've been sunk by other carriers much more. Range is KING

@hunterx0736

23 күн бұрын

​@sage5296 Rang is King, until you are dealing with cheap little patrol boats, then the accounts and logisticains come out to play. After all, why spend hundreds of thousands to millions when a few hundred dollar shells will be just as effective, and you would probably still out range them.

We have to remember that the missile knows where it is at all times, mainly because it knows where it isn’t.

@nursestoyland

6 ай бұрын

by subtracting from where it is

@CarbideSix

6 ай бұрын

@@nursestoyland or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation, which is not what you think.

@jbrou123

6 ай бұрын

@@CarbideSix The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is.

@CarbideSix

6 ай бұрын

@@jbrou123 Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.

@philsalvatore3902

5 ай бұрын

Sigh. Please read up on proportional navigation. That is the foundation of air defense missile guidance.

The nice thing about the logistics ship approach is that you don't have to sail the thing all the way back to a port (especially since a peer state can predict and target the US's major bases in theater that would normally do VLS reloading). The logistics ship can be less predictable and closer to the front than a port would normally be.

I know this thought might require a redesign of the ship itself but my thought was either have like a holder device that comes out of the firing module you can move the missile into then have it slide gently down the tube in the holder device so it's not like threading a needle, or have a mechanical loading system from underneath instead that starts horizontal and then rolls forward and upwards then seal up the bottom after.

I wonder if it would be practical to use a staging rig or something along these lines in a potential fight against china. Something that can be floated but is a stable platform and can be placed realtively close but not too close to the battlefield. Minimizing the time a ship needs to retreat in order to rearm. Or maybe using a supply ship as an ammo ship and you standardize the VLS for almost every ship you have and rather then replacing tubes singly you replace the whole system like a hotswap like server hard drives.

@jonathanmora9398

6 ай бұрын

Yeah they had a deployable barge thing but scrapped it because it was too impractical to transport

@ashleyogarro2686

6 ай бұрын

You folks beyond repair

@bigman86-ob3db

6 ай бұрын

@@SunriseLAW quit yapping bud

@Robbie1075

6 ай бұрын

​@@bigman86-ob3dbis what he said not accurate (serious question)?

@bigman86-ob3db

6 ай бұрын

@@Robbie1075the drones and missiles from china are said to be unreliable and underpowered.

They could've used a helper rail system to reload the rocket. No need for cranes, except for when placing the rocket containers onto the helper rails! Once they are placed onto the rails, they could be pushed into place, and lifted in a vertical position and lowered slowly into the cell. They could even load an entire row of cells at the same time, this way! Or even better, they could've made the entire system removable, and when needed to reload, just swap the whole ting, with all the cells at once!

@nursestoyland

6 ай бұрын

so…something like stripper clips from bolt-action rifles?

@jbrou123

6 ай бұрын

Good idea, but it seems like it would be just as difficult to get the canister on the rail as getting the canister in the box. Swapping out the entire magazine might work, but the wiring and interconnects might be a night mare.

@JinKee

6 ай бұрын

​@@jbrou123right now, we swap the whole ship

@kevinfisher1345

6 ай бұрын

You realize these canisters are 3 stories tall, right? A helper rail in theory would need to be even longer. And realistically would need to move everything out of the way forward of the VLS (can not do it off to the sides as that would over the water), in which case there is usually something else already there such as 54 calibre gun.

@DanielDogeanu

6 ай бұрын

@@nursestoyland Not necessarily that, but that might work too!

Great video full of informations

An old landing ship or carrier would allow for a deck gantry in almost any weather. Or potentially loading from below. And the shear amount they could hold with drone swarms would be crazy.

Instead of loading the missiles one by one, why can't we just load them all at once with one big missile container when in calm seas or ports?

@korkius

6 ай бұрын

tell that to the us navy

@SubZeroXJ

6 ай бұрын

My guess is one bank of launchers could have reliability issues, and the potential to change the ballast of the ship too much when attempting to reload unless in drydock, making the change less efficient and a PITA in logistics

@TheJttv

6 ай бұрын

Because those missiles are not small.... they are over 20 feet long and several tons

@Lothaii

6 ай бұрын

separated missile kinds for different scenarios each time, also mixed together. This isn't feseable

@felipeaugusto2600

6 ай бұрын

He states one or more, but the issues remain added to a bigger boom.

Bravo Zulu (Well Done). An excellent explanation of a complex chain of events. One minor quibble just at the end. The Chinese Navy (PLAN) is NOT even a near peer, much less peer competitor to the US Navy. The displacement of just the US carriers exceeds that of the entire PLAN. All told, the US Navy displaces about 3.5 times that of the PLAN. The PLAN ships lack endurance and the PLAN has a negligible forward resupply capability. They might do well within the first island chain but outside that, they are largely irrelevant. This is a BIG problem for a nation that imports ~2/3 of its oil. About 2/3 of that originates a convenient 7,000NM away in the Persian Gulf and has to pass through one of three straits with a combined width of 51NM. Two of the three straits can be closed with tube artillery on shore.

This is more of a “not what I ever thought about” item. Thank you for sharing anyway.

A crane dispensable crawler, that has an empty cell, plus the needed reloads seems like an option. (Or, a separate unloader and loader). It moves to the appropriate VLS section, rigidly locks onto the ship and system, making it able to operate quickly and safely, even under rougher conditions, and just slides the used cells out, and slides the reloads in. It would atill need to be placed by crane and removed by crane from a supply ship, but since it just needs to be placed safely, not accurately into a launch tube, etc, it should be more robust to sea states. And multiple crawlers could be preloaded on the supply ship, and craned over one after the other, while each preceeding crawler loads and unloads the other cells, reducing overall time of thw process.

The deck crane should have been the arm of an excavator with a grab to hold the missle case. Missile held not hung, arm mounted to deck to null roll. Just a big robot arm instead of a basic crane.

@stephens7136

6 ай бұрын

Exactly, they already use these for both logging and foundation pile-driving, the pile handlers can even spin their grip to align with other beams, or easily the square hatch in the deck.

Previous destroyer ballistic missile defense guy here, if the Navy ever had to focus thier destroyer/cruiser fleet on a country, lets say China for instance, if 75% of its destroyers had to focus with 75% of thier missles in a given day, they would have over 4800 missles to run out of(many more if you count sea sparrows) And that is just sea based. The Navy can also reload an entire destroyer in less than a day(with maybe a days transit). Also going Winchester doesn't mean being defenseless, cwis can help with ships defense, and other Aegis Ships can share tracks, and fire from thier launchers with both perspectives of any incoming missiles. Not to mention any patriot batteries, and air support that may also be helping. In addition we keep making and upgrading the Burkes like an army of ants.

@cybersentient4758

6 ай бұрын

So basically there's way too much missiles to run out of

@yeabutwecouldbefreer

6 ай бұрын

@@cybersentient4758 nope, but any offensive missles will be at cost parity or more with the destroyers, not including any collateral damage from a return volley.

@cybersentient4758

6 ай бұрын

@@yeabutwecouldbefreer Ally ships and subs would bolster the amount of missiles ryt

@yeabutwecouldbefreer

6 ай бұрын

@@cybersentient4758 yep

@krashd

6 ай бұрын

A US destroyer just used 19 of it's VLS missiles to take down 2 regular missiles and a bunch of drones so all China would need is 4800 drones. About the same amount they used for the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics over a decade ago.

I love your videos

Good video, as usual!

Transferring missile pods is a great reason to be FORKLIFT CERTIFIED *guitar riff*

These ships are linked to each other so effective the ships have far more than one ship

That would have been incredible to watch, the USS Carney launch missile after missile after missile at the incoming enemy missiles! Probably the best "test" of AEGIS, SPY-1 and the SM-2 missiles the US Navy has ever had!

@ronjones9447

Ай бұрын

A real world test not something they set up 2 weeks in advance with prior warning and perfect weather

I was an IC on a DDG and my job for UNREP was to play the breakaway song from above the bridge on big ass speakers.

Expeditious [meaning promptly or quickly], NOT “expeditionary” [meaning ‘pertaining to an expedition’]. (Intent is to be helpful, not critical. I love your content. Keep up the good work!)

@NotWhatYouThink

6 ай бұрын

Thank you 😊 but what I meant was indeed “expeditionary”. So like other expeditionary forces, the re-loading would also be done in an expeditionary manner. Expeditious means quickly, which could also work in that sentence, but it would change its meaning to something else.

@richardletaw4068

6 ай бұрын

@@NotWhatYouThinkOoh-such a nicety. Well played, NWYT!

I always wondered why they didn't keep the magazine-to-launcher conveyor belt of the arm launcher system, but modify it to load a vertical launcher instead of an arm launcher. Then you can reload at sea in a wider range of sea conditions like an arm launcher, but with most of the reduction in weight, space, and complexity that a VLS provides.

@chad6080

6 ай бұрын

Because the whole point of VLS is that all the missiles on the ship are available to fire and aren’t in magazines. By having a magazine and conveyor to reload the VLS you have all the limitations of both systems and none of the benefits

@speedy01247

6 ай бұрын

Because the ships need access to those missiles as fast as combat requires, if it was one modern vls ship vs several past arm launcher variants the modern one might be able to both counter every missile thrown at it and fire back at the enemies, forcing them to decide whether to shoot to kill or shoot to defend. I don't think it would get a kill unless targeting one or two of their vessels but the arm launchers won't get a kill either until it's out of countermeasures.

@Kriss_L

6 ай бұрын

Reloading that magazine is as slow, or more so, than reloading a VLS.

@trolleriffic

6 ай бұрын

How would you get the missiles onto the loader or onto the ship in the first place?

@philsalvatore3902

6 ай бұрын

The great value of the Mk-41 is that each cell can carry a different weapon and the load out can be varied depending on the threat. For some missions your ship may want to replace some of their anti surface missiles with Vertical Launch ASROC (VLA for short) . The ESSM missile can be "Quad-Packed" four missiles to one VLS canister. For some threats you might want to carry more quad packed ESSM and fewer SM-6 (less advanced air threat) and use some of the VLS cells for anti-ship missiles. In other scenarios you might want to carry more SM-3 and fewer or even no Tomahawks. With the Mk-41 system this is easy to accomplish. With the old conveyor systems you don't have that flexibility.

There are a thousand suitable harbors in the western Pacific Ocean to reload Arleigh Burkes by ship. Around Japan there are probably 100 safe harbors. There's probably 100 alone in the Philippines. And then there is Guam, Ulithi, Kwajalein, and Australia.

@Frizzleman

6 ай бұрын

Until China bombs the islands to nothing and then the ships have to go all the way to Hawaii

@Edin116

6 ай бұрын

Actually, from my recollection, there was a Congressional report by one of their military accountability offices (might've actually been their budget office actually) stated that reloading of the VLS cells can only be done at specialized-purpose-built ports/docks and that the military failing to account for that when requisitioning the system on ships might've violated appropriations/allocation requirements for the VLS system. There are only a handful of port facilities that actually can do the reloading of VLS cells according to the report and if they were to ever be targeted the US Navy would not be able to operate. Any improper reloading of the VLS Cells would damage them and compromise them to the point that chain detonations within VLS clusters would indeed be possible as missiles are launched in sequence and share a common exhaust that they need to be completely intact to shield themselves from the heat to avoid in-cell detonations.

@twelvestitches984

6 ай бұрын

@@Edin116 Specialized purpose built ports??? You just need a crane. Also, if a warehouse is destroyed by a strike you can actually rebuild the warehouse or build another warehouse. And, the video shows a VLMS being reloaded with a nearby ship so you just need a harbor. One more thing, currently we have 73 Arleigh Burke destroyers and 92 are planned. If 73 go to war with 90 missiles, let's say 60 are standard missiles, and you have a 90% accuracy rate, that is 3,942 aircraft destroyed. China has around 2,100 aircraft so that is pretty much their entire air force, and that doesn't even count air to air missiles fired from carrier aircraft. So, the war is over by the time you have to reload.

@Bill_N_ATX

6 ай бұрын

@@twelvestitches984 It’s not just aircraft that you are shooting with SM2s etc. You are also shooting down other missiles. Trust me, China has a shitload more than 3000 of those. Truth is, the Navy needs their own version of Rapid Dragon. Call it Slow Manatee. Take an ocean going barge, install a bunch of cells on them, and drag them out to the area to be protected. Or, instead of specialized cells, build the launchers into something resembling standard ocean containers and then you could just load up a container ship in case the shit hits the fan. Hell, play a good game of hide the pea and the enemy would have a hard time knowing which of the dozens of ships in port is the one full of missiles and which one is full of tennis shoes and Christmas ornaments.

@twelvestitches984

6 ай бұрын

@@Bill_N_ATX Yeah, that is true. I think if we go to war with China it's going to take time for the US Navy to get there because they are going to have to conduct anti-sub ops a thousand miles out from the Chinese coastline. So, during that time our B2's will take out most of China's air force on the ground. I don't think the Chinese DF-21 ballistic missile has the accuracy to hit a moving ship. It accelerates straight up to Mach 10 and turns and comes straight down, there's no way it can manuever enough to hit a target moving at 35 mph. Plus, the Chinese will have to know where the US Navy ships are before launching.

Ultimately you fire more at once which is key in launching many missiles in a salvo.

Stability whilst loading would be done via bumpstoprollers an air bumps at the base so the crane only needs to drop an stop the air bump would allow it to fall to a rest with complete safety

The should use a system like they use to lift shipping containers with a fixed boom so it can't swing in storm conditions

@trolleriffic

6 ай бұрын

Lifting shipping containers is done in a port where the water is very still and the ship is securely attached with multiple lines to permanent moorings built into the dockside or sea bed. They're not trying to do it at sea and the cranes they use are enormous - put one of those on a destroyer and it'll capsize.

Question: It don't seem to take that much space on the boat, so why not just add more cells instead of reloading? Also since the logistic ship carry so many spares why not just have them fire it as well?

@smallboy8771

6 ай бұрын

I’m not sure why they don’t carry more on the attack ships, but the logistic ships likely don’t have the targeting equipment required to launch

@justins8802

6 ай бұрын

@@smallboy8771Sounds like the missile truck concept in the Air Force. Use your well defended and expensive ships to deploy forward and target, and have a missile truck in the rear networked to the remote fire control of the forward ships.

@mambofox4333

6 ай бұрын

Displacement treaties and the fact it's bad to put all your eggs in one basket. If you have 2x as many missiles the ship costs more, so you have less ships. So one accident or lost hull is more crippling. San Antonio ships have vls spots but they aren't equipped. We aren't concerned about capacity atm.

@NotWhatYouThink

6 ай бұрын

They do take plenty of space under the deck.

@Brzhk

6 ай бұрын

I'd guess you'd need a lot of equipment along, that you can't have the trained personnel and costs associated and you'd rather just buy and man another warship. And more, you'd need the refuel ships just for range extension anyways. (uneducated guesses)

I like all the stickers on the fuel transfer nozzle. It looks like a punk rock bar bathroom.

An idea just popped into my head. What if we reloaded entire VLS modules, rather than individual cells? Sure, you need a bigger crane. But you're reloading at least 8 missiles each cycle, and the other constraints stay roughly the same. It would probably require another iteration on the VLS design as a whole, but if you can make each crane cycle do more work, it seems like that's the best way to speed up the process. Additionally, that would give room in the VLS cell to consider things like switching a 2x2 group of 4 VLS cells to a single, larger VLS cell that is restricted to "cold-launch only" (because in so doing you likely also eliminated that cell group's common VLS exhaust ducting). This would allow carrying less missiles that each are much more capable, or something like a cluster missile designed to counter swarm threats (a large missile that carries many smaller missiles which are each capable of taking out an incoming threat but don't have the range to engage the threats when launched directly from the ship's VLS cells). Or you know, jump on the hypersonic bandwagon, but that's really, really expensive.

@philsalvatore3902

5 ай бұрын

From experience an SM-2 in its canister weighs 4,200 lbs. The maximum weight the STREAM Rigs used for alongside underway replenishment can move is 6,000 lbs, though there is a program coming on line to increase this to 12,000 lbs. Unless you have ever tried to control a load that heavy swinging beneath your helicopter you might not have an appreciation for the dynamics involved O_O I have lifted and set loads that heavy but it was over land. I have done a lot of VERTREP at sea too, including replenishing VLS cells but the ship had a crane in one of the four cell sets to lift out the empty canister and stow the full one. NSWC Port Hueneme has prototyped a rig that can be carried on the replenishment ship that would fit over a 32 or 48 cell VLS installation and allow VLS canisters to be transferred between ships using the STREAM Rig. No need for the crane on board the VLS shooter. The replenishment ship's helo could set the rig over the VLS installation and transfer 12 crew members to work on the DDG. The equipment exists in prototype form but so far there has been no "resource sponsor" willing to fund further development or production.

They will not fire 19 missiles for those targets. instead, Aegis system will determine the best possible combination to neutralize the target and provides suggestion to the crew. Most likely the high weighted target like cruise missiles are neutralized using vls and drones using canon or ciws.

@chad6080

6 ай бұрын

No. CIWS is for point self defence and has no role in interception

@NotWhatYouThink

6 ай бұрын

Correct. The drones and cruise missiles were not headed toward the ship, so no CIWS.

@philsalvatore3902

6 ай бұрын

If you look at the naval battles, from the 1973 Yom-Kippur War, through Operation Praying Mantis, the Gulf Wars and the Falklands Island war, you will see that the great majority of anti-ship missiles fired in anger that were defeated were seduced off their targets by effective electronic countermeasures. Many of the occasions were ships were hit and either badly damaged or sunk by anti-ship missiles were occasions where ECM was not employed (USS Stark, HMS Sheffield, INS Hanit). There has been only one kinetic kill of an anti ship missile in combat, by a Royal Navy DDG which fired a Sea Dart missile at an Iraqi Silkworm before it could hit USS Iowa. All the rest of the several dozen anti-ship missiles defeated in combat were defeated by ECM. In the three battles that had large numbers of both friendly and enemy missiles in the air at one time, two battles during the Yom Kippur War and Operation Praying Mantis where the Iranians were shooting SM-1s at us and we were shooting SM-2s and Skipper IIs at them all of the Iranian missiles were spoofed off target. There wasn't even any need to use the ships weapons to shoot them down.

This is going to become a genuine problem both for VLS and also for Submarines in a potential China/Taiwan conflict. Not only are VLS nearly impossible (tried, abandoned due to complexity) to load at sea, but they're also typically only loaded in home ports or forward operating ports. Not civilian ports due to the lack of specialized equipment and the lack of available local inventory. This means that once Yokosuka and other military ports are suppressed or knocked out entirely, any surviving but empty US vessels will have to return to Pearl just to refill their VLS. This is being alleviated by quad packing VLS launchers, but it's still an issue and any high intensity combat will see ships running dry possibly in as little as a few hours with their resupply and back on station timeline being measured in weeks not days let alone the hours that may be needed in a high intensity conflict. As for submarines, they haven't practiced nor prepared for civilian port loading, so once submarines fire all torpedoes or all of their conventional armament (missiles included) the only recourse they have is to return *all the way back to Pearl Harbour* to rearm. Essentially once the vessels is empty it's useless and the timeline until its useful again might be longer than the conflict even lasts.

@dominuslogik484

6 ай бұрын

they can reload in Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Singapore, Taiwan, Australia and soon to be possible in the Philippines. so its not too distant they would need to travel but it is still something that must be taken into account.

@doujinflip

6 ай бұрын

That's why the forward logistics ship concept is getting looked at, since these can perform reloads in any area of calm enough water instead of fixed ports at well known locations. Resupply while underway and under threat was never feasible in the history of naval warfare, ships always had to retire out of the enemy's weapons range to get restocked.

@mikespangler98

6 ай бұрын

Submarine tenders used to carry reloads for anything that would fit in the torpedo tubes. I don't know if they still do, or even if there are sub tenders in service. On that topic, what is the hull designation for these logistic ships? Sub tenders were AS, destroyer tenders were AD, repair ships were AR, etc.

@trolleriffic

6 ай бұрын

@@mikespangler98 There are still sub tenders in service although I don't think any of them are capable of reloading Trident boats like they did with Polaris (much bigger and heavier missile). You can see one moored at Naval Base Guam which resupplies attack subs.

@mikespangler98

6 ай бұрын

@@trolleriffic So there is. They remodeled the base rather extensively since I was last there, that was when the Hunley was at the pier. No floating dry dock either, at least not on that picture.

this seems like something that could fairly easily be solved by a heavy duty robot arm and sturdier canisters. use a resupply ship to move canisters from deck to deck, then use the robot arm to move canisters from the deck into the cells. the cells could also have extendable rails that come up and grab the canister, guiding or even pulling it down. this seems like it would be a fairly easy engineering challenge tbh

@kevinfisher1345

6 ай бұрын

You mean like use a VLS strikedown crane that takes up 3 cell spaces of the VLS ... Hmm I wonder why they have never thought of that. Oh wait they already have. It works just fine. However it was a bit of a slow moving crane and pain in the butt folding and storing away. Nor is the sturdiness of the canisters an issue, as they easily withstand the firing force and are several inches thick metal. The issue is simply a moving platform such as ship on water, and getting the swinging canister started into the cell. Even using the guide as can be seen at 0:15 in the video, it can still be a bit tricky. That swinging 20' canister is not light after all even when empty, let alone with a missile.

@mini_bunney

6 ай бұрын

@@kevinfisher1345 no, not a crane. a more rigid structure, which would not have anything capable of swinging. simply a robot arm, that grabs hold of a canister and lifts it into the cell, hence requiring a sturdy enough canister that can be lifted and rotated even in rougher sea states. yes, cranes and flimsier robot arms would sway. a strong enough robot arm would not, and neither would the canister it is holding. yes, it would take up deckspace, like the crane you and the video mentioned.

@Kriss_L

6 ай бұрын

@@mini_bunneyThat defeats a prime advantage of basically no moving parts on the VLS, and second, reloading the VLS at sea like that really isn't that important in the big picture.

@kevinfisher1345

6 ай бұрын

@@mini_bunney Yes possible. Except it would not replace the issues they had with the strikedown crane. They did away with that crane, as its main purpose was to load while underway at sea. That was simply to risky of an endeavor. The only other purpose was to remove empty canisters to save some time. The US Navy decided it was better and simpler to just go to a port and load from a land based crane like they normally do. A robot arm would not change that. Might make it a bit less riskier, but does not change the issue.

I have served on two missile systems, the MK 26 Missile System and the MK 41 Vertical Launch System, and both are issues when rearming, to reload the original MK 26 was just as difficult if not more challenging because the missiles were directly exposed to the environment and could be easily damaged with just a minor bump, so changing out the missile that is enclosed in the container is less complicated and has less of a chance to damage the actual missile. Either way a battle group is designed to allow the withdrawal and rearming of ships in an orderly manner, just like in World War II when the Battleships would fire up to 200 to 500 rounds of 16 inch projectiles. These massive ships stilled had limits to their capacities. Nothing has changed in complexity but the operational process is much safer for both service members and the actual weapons.

The missile container seems quite self-sufficient. Why store any of them in any other way than ready to launch? Having both dedicated vertical missile launcher ships, and dedicated escorting ships. In the extreme a kind of a "barge" with nothing but vertical launchers. When ammo expended, the barge would be spent and have little remaining value. Btw, I've just recently began working with cranes. And heck, do those babies offer some surprises in behavior now and then! Even a guy who has worked with'em for 24 years, indoors on dry land, finds himself maneuvering a pendeling load. And since there (on this particular crane, for some probably good reason) is a heavy object half way between the crane and the load it carries, it doesn't swing /\, it swings >

@dcviper985

6 ай бұрын

About 20 years ago when I joined the US Navy there actually was some talk about an “arsenal ship” which would basically be a barge with VLS cells and a Cooperative Engagement Computer system to let other ships fire its missiles.

@Kriss_L

6 ай бұрын

You are overestimating the number of missiles that the US Navy has bought over the years.

@philsalvatore3902

6 ай бұрын

Read up on something called Large Unmanned Surface Vessel, LUSV. An unmanned floating arsenal to accompany the strike group.

aegis is capable of a full auto defense mode and can illuminate hundreds of targets at the same time using the spy radar, but a weapon platform like this on full auto mode would be way too dangerous if mistakes are made when detecting wrong vehicles as enemies

@KiwisCassie

6 ай бұрын

didn't know about that ability - is that on the newer baselines?

@nos4me

6 ай бұрын

It would only ever be used like that in a war zone where the airspace would be closed

@JPK1337

6 ай бұрын

@@KiwisCassie yeah. it uses the specific fire control radar to guide rockets in the end phase of their trajectory, with a very narrow beam, but can illuminate everything with the track and search spy radar and just fire at will. it's just very energy inefficient and makes it light up like a Christmas tree on enemy radar. it's supposed to stay stealthy as long as possible. but in open battle with known positions.. no downside.

Dont load vertically with a crane. Have a horizontal loading mechanism that ratchets in the vls cell so its locked in of breakaway occurs. Then once loaded the mechanism raises the cell and rotates it vertically and loads it in.

nice vid

What about a floating dry dock that can be deployed in the ocean that holds the ship in a calm sea state and is equipped with hundreds of loadable missile cases and cranes that can reload the ship without fully removing the ship from a theatre?

@jessicaregina1956

6 ай бұрын

😂 that ship would be the second most targeted ship after the carrier

@Frizzleman

6 ай бұрын

@@jessicaregina1956 either way American logistics will be targeted so it’s just cost benefit analysis at this point there really is no simple solution

@HoneyLaw1

6 ай бұрын

That's what I was thinking as well. It's 100 percent possible because the U.S navy had to pay to have a heavy transport ship, ship its damaged Arleigh Burke back to the U.S for repairs after a collison. So why not build one that's slightly bigger that can rearm an Arleigh Burke at sea and also carry crippled ships out of a combat zone or help preform minor repairs at sea.

@jessicaregina1956

6 ай бұрын

See again "most heavily targeted ship after the carrier" You would need a small escort group just for it and etc****

@connorjohnson4402

6 ай бұрын

Yea drydocking a 500ft long Navy destroyer is a huge logistical undertaking while in a protected port with no wind or waves, doing so in the open ocean is another thing entirely if not impossible. Plus its gunna be huge and slow and full of a massive amount of explosives. its basically a shoot here to destroy our vital logistics.

I think I have read that the drones were mostly shot with the ship's main gun.

@samsonsoturian6013

6 ай бұрын

The rockets costs more than the average drone

@doujinflip

6 ай бұрын

If they're close enough and not a proportionally deadly threat, yeah it's preferable to use the gun with its much cheaper and more plentiful rounds. Even back in WWII when submarines still had deck guns, it was preferred to surface and fire with it on a fairly unarmed supply ship than it was to launch from the limited stock of torpedoes.

@pdes_

6 ай бұрын

@@samsonsoturian6013It's not the cost to produce the drone that you need to compare the cost of the interceptor to, but the cost of the damage that the drone is capable of doing.

@yeabutwecouldbefreer

6 ай бұрын

Cwis is pretty good at subsonic targets. If you have to use it on super/hypersonic targets there will be flac and collateral damage.

@whatever8282828

6 ай бұрын

I don't mean CIWS. That is much shorter range.@@yeabutwecouldbefreer

They did successfully reload or two of a VLS using a type of floating dry dock awhile ago. Not too sure how far into the program they are though.

@trolleriffic

6 ай бұрын

Those tenders or floating docks were semi-permanently moored in a friendly harbour near to a naval base or in some cases they'd be moored in the base itself. There's a submarine tender at Naval Base Guam that resupplies attack subs but the way it's moored, it's almost like an extension of the dockside. Reloading at sea would be a nightmare in comparison.

I have to say Arm launchers are so cool and sick kinda sad why they got rid of it even if they had that advantage over the VLS but I understand it was more reliable and costs less over time

This weapons are a ,,one hit wonder''

@ianwalton284

6 ай бұрын

they probably expect it to be destroyed shortly after launching it full complement of missiles, in a nuclear war.

@trolleriffic

6 ай бұрын

A one-hit wonder that can be reloaded.

The US Navy just needs to buy a large container ship, load it with a f*ck ton of different missiles and call it a day. Sure it's not very survivable but you've got all the interceptors and strike capability you could ask for. Put the ship in the middle of a fleet and you'll be golden

@mitchspurlock3626

6 ай бұрын

Or like the Chinese are doing and just make a swarm of smaller dedicated missile boats that diversify the location of storage and launch.

@rykehuss3435

6 ай бұрын

It'd be too slow. The speed of the formation is its slowest link. Even aircraft carriers cruise at like 30 knots. That thing would sweat to break 15. Secondly, rearming these missiles at sea is practically impossible. So it'd be useless regardless of cruising speed

@LordOceanus

6 ай бұрын

@@rykehuss3435 While your point is entirely valid its actually the cruisers that are the slowest part of the strike group. The carrier is the fastest and can outrun everything else. The Areligh burke class destroyers are also likely (not official but they don't ever say the true speed) capable of 40kts. A Nimitz class can reach 50-60kts

@JasonNguyen-lz4cr

6 ай бұрын

HII once proposed a DEDICATED BMD version of the San Antonio class. The thing possesses a full-size SPY-6, 288 MK41 cells (you're not wrong, 288) or 144 MK57s, a rail gun and a MK110. Two Ospreys (or Seahawks) could be stored in a well deck-turned-aircraft hangar.

@jurajsintaj6644

6 ай бұрын

@@mitchspurlock3626 small coastal missile boats also have significant problems with range, defensive capability, and possibly even targeting capability depending on the type of missile they use, but that is likely not a problem.

Arsenal drone ships are the way of the future, augment any DDG or CG with an arsenal drone ship or two carrying an additional 8/16/24/32 VLS cells.

Floating drydock style logistics ship, at least you eliminate half the differential motion. Do it in a lagoon/ harbor somewhere and you can probably meet that reloading goal. otherwise it is just going to suck. Load the front while the back is defensing and rotate.

All it takes is one team of Schizos and obsessives to solve this problem.

@n_tas

6 ай бұрын

It's easy, just launch a missile carrying a VLS cell from a VLS cell launcher on land and aim for the VLS launcher on the ship you need to reload

Minor correction, the conflict is between Israel and the terrorists organizations HAMAS based in Palestine, not Palestine as a whole

@Sniperboy5551

6 ай бұрын

Idk man, look at what Israel has been doing to Gaza. They wouldn’t even let humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip for the first few days, seems like they’re waging war on Gaza as a whole.

@kaing5074

6 ай бұрын

Do the words 'Israel Occupation' and 'Palestine Government-in-EXCILE' mean anything to you? Clearly not. News cycle dependant zomboid...

@samsonsoturian6013

6 ай бұрын

That's a wholly artificial distinction

@n_tas

6 ай бұрын

@@samsonsoturian6013 suppose you think all ice cream is Ben & Jerry's too?

@samsonsoturian6013

6 ай бұрын

@@n_tas I suppose you think Gazans aren't suicidal

Switch to a Horizontal cradle with hydrolics to a vertical lift. Then it's lowered into the cell. A small crane onboard to move to different cells.

A simple, but strong arm grasping the canister from the middle, moving it horizontally until ready to 'poke" it when it swings up and pivots its grasping device to slip it in slot. this way has no cables, no end mount dangling and allows canisters to be resupplied by ship to ship cable as they are handled horizontally. take some real strong engineering on the load arm, a simple bar on the four corners of the canisters and diesel hydraulic motors to protect from emp weapons. simple

@trolleriffic

6 ай бұрын

If the solution was simple, navies would already be doing it.

They should try to use Float-On / Float-Off [ FLO-FLO] Ships then both ships are locked together for stability and can manoeuvre safely, whilst staying near the Fleet zone.

One thing to note. All ships run out of ammo, so no matter the system replenishing is always the limiting factor.

Ok, imagine this: having the VLS designed into a standard shipping container size, at least in the 2 of 3 dimensions. Fit as many missile cells in that canister, and transport it-load it and unload it as a whole. Sure it may sound like extra weight to move around, but also the transporting job of t would be incredibly easier. And one more thing, imagine having some mechanical arms that can connect a missile cruiser to a supply ship mid sea, and join them into a single vessel, which sails like a catamaran until reloading is completed. The whole thing seems to have a lot of room for development

@StrikeNoir105E

6 ай бұрын

Standard shipping containers require specialized cranes in order for them to be loaded onto ships due to their size and weight, and as already demonstrated having more specialized hardware isn't exactly cost effective for logistics.

5:40 "Ideal" is relive here. It may not be ideal to drop your fueling probe in the water, but it's quite a bit more ideal than having antiship missiles impacting. And in the end you refueling probe is still going into the sea.

You make mention eventually of the GMLS Mk26 yet you showed 2 clips of the GMLS Mk10. The VLS Mk41 had issues with its crane system early on but the USN did not let FMC/NSD, the alternate domestic manufacturer, make the necessary fixes and improvements.

I think just a ways to make a Vertical loading become horizontal loading. A swiveling loader capable of rotating between Vertical and horizontal or any adegrees like F35b vectoring to do it. when you swiveling to horizontal you need build a new container & crane like a jet to have Probe-and-drogue to catch the swiveling loader.

A mark, a yen, a buck or a pound A buck or a yen A buck or a pound. Is all that makes the world go around That clinking, clanking sound Can make the world go 'round

Coupd we not just use a layer design from the bottom up so the compartment once used could be off boarded an a new layer could be made avail reloading the ship could be done at sea as it would be a floating cartridge that would be loaded onto the ship

Economics of battle, if you launch 200 cheaper missiles against a target that can not defend against that number and you hit it, then you win. Swarm attacks need to be figured in real fast for ships or improve the armour which means larger power plants and heavier armour = more cost

@KiwisCassie

6 ай бұрын

Aegis automatically determines what measures to be used against the incoming threats, worst case scenario in the future is adding more VLS cells - it's far easier to prevent a missile hitting the ship at all than it is to try prevent damage when the missile hits.

@philsalvatore3902

6 ай бұрын

Anti-ship cruise missiles are not cheap. If you want enough stand off range to be able to launch missiles from outside the range of the battle groups air wing and long range SAMs, you need something with a 500 or so nautical mile range. Now you are talking a large expensive missile, expensive because at those ranges the missile will have to fly autonomously for an hour then scan the ocean for targets, classify everything it detects, determine what is neutral shipping and what is a legitimate target, then maneuver to engage the target including employing its own electronic countermeasures. Missiles that can do that are not cheap and most navies cannot afford enough to conduct multiple saturation attacks of 200 or more such missiles. You also need platforms able to launch these missiles and those too are not cheap or expendable. Cheap missiles are of necessity short ranged and have simple guidance. That requires the launch platform to come deep inside the battle groups substantial air defenses. Good luck with that. Coming inside 300 nm of a US Navy carrier strike group's escorts and its air wing is not an easy thing and not very survivable.

I feel like ther should be one ammunition logistics ship per fleet that sails with the carrier group (obviously there are more but one that is constantly with the group) it would need ciws and probably some missiles but it could increase the rate at which other ships could ingage targets.

@andrewcarty280

6 ай бұрын

USNS Supply + Arctic sail with the CSG already . . .

If the logistics ship was akin to a heavey lift ship, it could submerge and then load the combat ship into a “docking bay” and then once the combat ship is secured it could start moving again, and then you wouldn’t have the issue of sea stability cause only one vessel would be in contact with the water, also the rearmament ship could have its own VLS on the opposite side of the ship so it could defend itself while the combat ship being rearmed is unable to fire

In the Falklands war the UK fielded the Type 42 Warship with the Sea Dart reloadable missile system - two were sunk whilst still carrying the reloads : a lot of sailors died.

When I read the title cyber weapon is the first thing that comes to my mind, maybe we can get a cyber warfare video someday.

combine the two systems bro instead of a crane its attached to rails that slide it in to the VLS

To fix reloading, does the system have to be VLS? Can't they change to HLS and have it come out the side of the ship? (Yes a whole new design that would cost a lot) I think it would be a lot faster, safer and easier to place them on a deck elevator that can then move them around horizontally in the ship for reloading. This would also allow for much safer movement especially in rough seas.

@jurajsintaj6644

6 ай бұрын

The problem with that may be salvo size and internal space. I'm pretty that with a system like this, the main problem isnt deck space, but internal space. You still need to be able to go around the VLS cells to other parts of the ship, and you still need to fit systems inside. A system like this may trade the total missile magazine size and the size of a possible salvo that you could launch.

@CheapSushi

6 ай бұрын

They could but it takes a ton of money and a whole lot of political and military leadership pressure to do something different for the sake of a minor problem overall once the momentum for a certain direction is already ongoing. Like they're building 93 Arleigh Burks; they're not gonna change it much after 70+ have been built already for example and most navies from other countries stick to proven things for the sake of it. But the Russians for example have a missile you can just fire off the side of the ship like a torpedo and it launches into the air from the water; so you could have a big magazine to just dump them out quick and have a side loading mechanism. Nothing stops the US from using the same missile firing approach, even as just another weapon rather than the entire ship. But it just takes forever get the military industrial complex to change things and validate stuff without a lot $$$. Like the Zumwalts use "Peripheral Vertical Launch System"; basically just some of the cells are on the outer edge of the ship instead of the middle of the ship. It has the benefit of being less risky to the ship if directly damaged. But I'm sure that cost a bunch to do and prove even if it ain't all that different..just on the edge. And because the LCS and Zumwalt programs cost a ton of money and wasted a bunch of it and basically they cancelled these programs, the Navy is now going a more conservative approach on newer ships. That's while our new Frigate, the Freedom class kinda looks like a smaller Burke. Why Korean, Italy, France, Germany, Turkey don't try different approaches? Probably the same thing of "someone else proved it works just fine this way, so we're gonna do proven stuff" even if the alternative isn't all that crazy or difficult, just different. I'm finding it impossible to search the Russian missile on Google because it's so cluttered with other stuff, but it's not a submarine launch. It's a ship launched system. It would literally just be plopped into the water like a surface mounted torpedo tube launcher on a ship....and a few seconds later blast off from the water.

@Coecoo

6 ай бұрын

The VLS IS the better system when it comes to reloading. Creators of this video just didn't do their homework as per usual. VLS was chosen for "ease of reloading" and versatility which has recently paid off big time since they were able to painlessly go from smaller missiles to much longer ones but no matter what you do, missiles will always be extremely awkward to load due to their extremely big & long sizes and their expensive nature.

@trolleriffic

6 ай бұрын

@@CheapSushi There's no good reason for the US to change over to horizontal launch and especially not to a missile that gets fired out of a torpedo tube and launches from the water. The only reason the Russian RPK-2 launches its missile component from underwater is because it was developed as a submarine-launched weapon first that had to be able to be fired from a torpedo tube like a Soviet equivalent of SUBROC. It was then added to surface vessels and for the sake of logistical simplicity and cost, they used the exact same weapon and deployed it like a torpedo rather than redesign it into something that could launch off a rail or from a VLS.

I have an idea and if it has a major flaw, please tell me, but what if there’s a flat one that’s inside of what a little bit it rises up and you sit in the sauna and it brings it down and it’ll just launch off that

@Tr0ll_m4ster

6 ай бұрын

Nonsense...

Who else noticed at 7:24 the soldier on the middle left of the screen giving the middle finger salute to his peer 😂😂😂

If the US Navy was capable of reloading VLS at sea, they would keep it quiet

@trolleriffic

6 ай бұрын

That's not the kind of capability that you can keep under wraps.

Gonna need to build more supply ships considering they are the weakest link, I wonder if they are still planning on building a missile boat that would just follow the destroyers

Reminds me of play Tetris with the vertical column

Alignment with reality without loss of competence represents genius. Like the Navy doing with the seabarrows.

Shame the uprighting hinge couldnt also incorporate a through roller system, so that the module couldnt then slide directly into the cell. A frame containing these hinge/slides could be loaded from the supply ship and quick connected to the main deck. Then the crane is only used for uprighting and lowering but not positioning.

what purpose does the canister serve besides protection for the missile? to get rid of it would be one less step!

I’ve been thinking we need to create a new form of arsenal ship that could be tasked to specific warships to act as a huge missile magazines.

then the comeback of battleships with big guns in a WW3 scenario where you need the firepower frequently might be plausible? Or are they similarly slow?

@trolleriffic

6 ай бұрын

Guns had too short a range and were much too inaccurate.

this "Oh Scheiße" 12:29 was the perfect reaction from the Germans, haha greetings from germany

5:24 - Why smokestack of the transport is yellow-blue? 😮❤

I think in future the idea of a gallant-looking U.S. Navy destroyer being the missile launch platform of choice, will need to give way to large fast ungallant-appearing cargo ships designed to carry and launch many, and I mean hundreds or even thousands, of missiles of various types. Especially for carrier group defense. Maybe add an angular stealthy exterior structure.