At 20min: "THE TORPEDO KNOWS WHERE IT IS BECAUSE IT KNOWS WHERE IT ISN'T" ;D

If Laserpig cared more about Star Trek, and was ever sober….

@sonofeyeabovealleffoff5462

Жыл бұрын

@Captain Bo NOT SCIENTIFICALLY POSSIBLE!

@venomgeekmedia9886

Жыл бұрын

I was about to say. If you want him to talk trek. Get him drunk.

@Kreachie

7 ай бұрын

⁠@@venomgeekmedia9886he compared the crew of the Piorun to Klingons in the video he did about them.

The Miranda class is the federation’s version of the K’tinga in the dominon war.

@SuperGamefreak18

Жыл бұрын

Yes it is always an exploding Miranda

@cpt_bill366

Жыл бұрын

Except the Miranda was actually agile in comparison

@SuperGamefreak18

Жыл бұрын

@@cpt_bill366 the war canoe was more agile than the K’tinga

@sagesheahan6732

Жыл бұрын

​@@cpt_bill366 still made of explodium though...

@DrewLSsix

Жыл бұрын

​@CPT_Bill it's a statement to the absolute badassery of the Miranda that 100 years on its still a semi capable fighter. Even if it's gone from arguably out classing the Constitution class, the flagship of its own fleet, to being the lowest possible rung of capable fighting ship.

Klingons: "CHARGE!!!!" Also Klingons: "Hold on. Should we have brought supply ships with us?"

@BeKindToBirds

Жыл бұрын

Supply ships and refitting mean going back to klingon space where you may likely get an entirely different ship and crew. Repairs are done in the rear lines by those unworthy to be warriors, a true warrior would either die in battle or take a new mount and return to battle. Their very philosophy is counter to the more civilized and logical requirements of war.

@keithrees4755

Жыл бұрын

love your joke mr tim got me laughing good

Remember that Klingon fleets are made up of the house fleets. I am positive that many of these houses had a bunch of those ships and said "These ships are great we don't need something new"

@merafirewing6591

Жыл бұрын

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

@OllamhDrab

Жыл бұрын

While that may indeed be a factor, I kind of want to point out that the Klingons are big weapons fans, I think the Houses that had the means would be pretty likely to hotrod the things. at least as much as the spaceframe allows. At least engine swaps look relatively straightforward on those, and with some of the weapons at least it seems they could put newer and better gear in to make the most of the power grids anyway. More capability miniaturized and such . Basically I'm rather less pessimistic about the possibilities, *but* you could count on a pretty wide variation among the things.

@merafirewing6591

Жыл бұрын

@@OllamhDrab why did I end up picturing some klingon leader of his house with his great great great grandfather's D4 with a custom paint job and some K'Tinga components on it and some newer tech from the Vor'cha.

@critter30002001

Жыл бұрын

It was shown in the House of Quark that the great houses had to make due with what their budgets could afford. They were expected to provide most of the fleet during war, but that didn’t mean they had unlimited funds to do it.

@NightOwlModeler

Жыл бұрын

Ah capitalist industrial-military complex at its finest. :p

Love the homage to Lazerpig! By the way, there was a K'tinga on active service in Season 1 of TNG ("Heart of Glory").

@weldonwin

Жыл бұрын

A PhaserTarg video if you will

@venomgeekmedia9886

Жыл бұрын

Yep but thankfully it was only in a diplomatic role.

@GregPrice-ep2dk

Жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 heh... But, seriously, if the Klingns get dingedfor keeping ships in serivce well-past when they should have been retired, what does that say about the Federation and their century-plus old designs (Miranda, Excelsior, etc)?

@mosser-wm3dx

Жыл бұрын

​@Greg Price to be fair, the Miranda and excelsior were both newer then the ktinga. The Ktinga going back all the way to the d7, vs the Miranda and excelsy being new at a time when the d7 type was already starting to become obsolete. You're point still stands, just figured I'd throw that caveat in the works.

@trazyntheinfinite9895

Жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 there was the tong, with klinker sleepers on board. Someone in the empire remembered these fckers were out there, about to wake up and possibly pillage their current ally. So they hollered starfleet like "yo btw there be klinkers out there who have slept through the whole kithomer thing. Maybe go off em?"

When I was a kid, we had a friend of the family who explained to me, what he called, the "Circle of Command"... Not to be confused with the "Chain of Command"... The "Circle of Command", as he explained it, was... A ship is only as good as her Captain, a Captain is only as good as the crew, and the crew is only as good as their ship... One fails, they ALL fail... I would say "Outside Influences" contribute to the circle too...

@nunya3163

Жыл бұрын

The enemy always gets a say.

@js3599

Жыл бұрын

@@nunya3163 Indeed they do...

@leonodonoghueburke4276

11 ай бұрын

"I think the Yanks night have had something to do with it"

@TheSanien

10 ай бұрын

No circle of command is when a bunch of women need to make a decision. It goes around and around and around and nothing gets done... 🤣

Is the beginning a Lazerpig reference?!? A man of culture, I see.

The problem with the K'Tinga was that it wasn't given enough screen time ever since the Bird of Prey debuted in Search for Spock. Then they introduced the Vor'Cha which filled the Klingon capital ship role that was originally for the K'Tinga. The K'Tinga was a victim of writers' injustice.

@Marinealver

Жыл бұрын

K'Tingas were blasted by V'Ger, while B'rels were terrorizing Kirk.

@keithrees4755

Жыл бұрын

at 300m plus in length i personally feel the K'Tinga class would at least make a good light cruiser role just like the constitution refit in the 24th century back in the day when they both was at the highest of there prime or career they would be considered something else

@Broockle

Жыл бұрын

@@keithrees4755 Isn't the role of a cruiser to patrol and fend of skirmishes? Doesn't sound like a K'Tinga could thrive in that environment at all with it's one phaser which it needs to point and fire. Unless all you're trying to do is project power.... which.. maybe?

@keithrees4755

Жыл бұрын

@@Broockle 1st of all which century you talking about because atm your not making sense

@Broockle

Жыл бұрын

@@keithrees4755 24th...

The real grueling thing is that the K’tinga could have been utilized in a much more effective manner. Bringing the old glory out of mothballs for one last charge on the battlefield. Use her as a troop transport and planetary siege ship. Her fire control system, aged cloaking system, lack of secondary weapons, aren’t that large of a detriment. Static defenses wouldn’t be hard to target, your opponent would already know your in the area, and your secondary disrupters are more of a point defense system.

@alexandercaires5921

Жыл бұрын

Yes...but where is the honor is what is virtually overkill?

@chriseash6497

Жыл бұрын

@@alexandercaires5921 Victory brings honor

@ChairmanMo

Жыл бұрын

Very similar to what I said too! Great Minds think a like!

@keithrees4755

Жыл бұрын

i am sure the klingons would have put more up to date modern equipment *such as a disruptor beam that we saw in the 1st ds9 station battle* in her before sending her to her death i am sure they wanted to ensure she could do as much damage as her hull would allow for

I am also curious what part Klingon romanticism may have held in all this and the K'tinga as a symbol. It was THE Klingon ship as the Empire was at its height, its days of true glory, their powerful heavy cruiser. This may be a big part why they chose to employ it once more while hoping to go into another true and glorious war.

@venomgeekmedia9886

Жыл бұрын

Yep. A lot of historical parallels there. And we see how well it turns out...

The K'Tinga....the T-62 of the ST universe.

Just a hypothesis after watching this that might be worthy of a video - Starfleet and the KDF were really quite the same at the late 2350s and early 2360s. Both depending on very large fleets of obsolete ships that were 100 years old that played vital roles in fleet operations. K'tinga for the KDF and Miranda for Starfleet. Both had more advanced ships in the Vorcha and Project Galaxy ships respectively but not a lot. The true difference was that Starfleet had Excelsior vs Karmalag (spell). Anyway. Starfleet got its wake up call about the real state of their fleet from the Borg. The Kingons didn't get theirs until the Cardassian invasion. Starfleet had years more time to move the Miranda's into a more suitable role and years to start upgrading their fleet to anti-Borg tactics and ships. Thus, the Federation was at least somewhat prepared as to what they would face from the Dominion, even though they still suffered greatly with all those Miranda's The Kingons had no such preparation time to upgrade their fleet (setting aside Gowron.) Their wake up to the state of their fleet left them no time to upgrade before the Dominion war and they suffered much more for it having to depend on an obsolite ship. So I guess it would be - even with the obvious better position of the Federation fleet with the Excelsior system vs Karmalag - how important was Wolf 359 to the Dominion War for the Federation vs not having such a blistering defeat for the Klingons when it came to their core obsolite ships?

@crownprincesebastianjohano7069

Жыл бұрын

Excellent post, my friend! Great analysis of the Klingon political-military situation prior to the Cardassian Invasion. One might add to that that the Klingons, for all their warrior lifestyle, hadn't had a major war in some time. They've had skirmishes with the Romulans and their civil war, but little practice in fleet operations, and against a fully integrated enemy military. Contrast that with the Cardassians who did recently engage in a proper war, and with a superior foe. This taught Cardassian officers to be resourceful, and to outthink their enemy to make up for having inferior equipment. With that in mind, it is not so surprising the Klingons fared poorly once the element of surprise was gone. They came in arrogant and disdainful of the enemy and it cost them. From the procurement perspective, this less experienced, arrogant attitude can result in the belief that anything Klingon was superior and would suffice and that even the worst K'Tinga was more than enough agains the cowardly, backwards Cardassians.

@armyfirefighter

Жыл бұрын

@Crown Prince Sebastian Johan of Ponte Corvo Thank you. I had thought exactly that. For the Cardassians, with the Border Wars, they'd been forced to develop the Galor and Keldon classes that were designed to be at least on par or superior to Excelsiors and Ambassador classes. Venom Geek has done vids on both in the Border Wars series, but it's pretty clear that the pre-Dominion Cardiassian fleet would be technologically and tactically superior to the K'Tinga fleet. But.I totally agree with what you said about the condition of Cardassia in the time frame.

@venomgeekmedia9886

Жыл бұрын

Very very good point! I'll probably do a future video on the miranda and brel and how they compared over the years

@gogthemagog

Жыл бұрын

Don't forget the Romulans. The Galaxy class was the biggest, most advanced ship they had. A huge leap over what had come before and in their first appearance in decades the Romulans rock up in a D'deridex which outclasses a Galaxy in everything but speed.

@armyfirefighter

Жыл бұрын

@gogthemagog Not forgetting the Romulans at all. Venom Geek could speak a lot more about the Romulans and if they had a similar wake-up call or if they depended on more obsolite ships at the time of the war. We just don't know a lot about what they were doing between the Tomed Incident and the Treaty of Algeron and when they became active in Alpha quadrant affairs again. All we know is what Tabok said about issues elsewhere having their attention (or I am not familiar anyway.) In his review of the D'deredex Venom Geek said she was getting older as a concept but she was for sure much more advanced than the older ships of the KDF and Starfleet. I just don't know enough about Romulan history in the lost years to know if they'd had such a wake-up call about their fleet and tactics as Starfleet and the Cardassians had that the Kingons did not.

"In war truth is the first casualty"-Hiram Johnson

@Peter2k84

Жыл бұрын

That's why independent news reporters on the ground are important. But these days, all reporters are busy copying and pasting for click bait.

Old Cold War Veteran here. I like the comparisons in this video. The 23rd Century was like our Cold War era. And the Current year is like the Dominion War era.

We can no longer be friends

@sagesheahan6732

Жыл бұрын

😂

The Klingon empire is a feudal one. So It makes sense the most powerful houses would want something big and showy...

In all fairness I don't think anyone actually thought the K'tinga was all that, we saw them die in droves from single hits from DS9's defensive armament

@shanenolan5625

Жыл бұрын

In fairness, those were new photon torpedoes twice the yield of normal ones . And we do see them destroyed, but several hits .

@canisblack

Жыл бұрын

The K'tinga was created to be a jobber. It first appeared in TMP where it did fuck all before getting one-shotted three times in a row by V'ger.

@garyporter2862

Жыл бұрын

I also think that we need to consider that much of the klingon fleet is made of the house fleets. I am positive that many of those guys had tons of these ships that Gowron basically said ok now let's make them work.

@brianjohnson5272

Жыл бұрын

Tell that to them when you reach Sto'Vo'Kor.

@themadoneplays7842

Жыл бұрын

@@canisblack Well there was reason for that in TMP, to show V'gers strength. I mean, the Klingons were a major big bad in TOS, and seeing something that can take them out in one hit was a sight to behold.

"it's more important to be seen to be fighting the war" in some ways losing an epic battle makes a better story than winning just look at the mythology that's been spun around the various Jacobite risings and the defeat at Culloden. Also, I wonder if some of the willingness to accept sub-par vessels is an understanding that there are too many Klingon warriors for the empire to support. this is a socially acceptable way to cull that warrior class, or "if the young upstart male dies 'heroically' on the command deck of a K'tinga he can't challenge me for leadership later"

Warning for headphone users: Unexpected Klingon jump-shock at the beginning there. In the 24th century, the K'tinga has long passed its prime and the niche it was designed for no longer really exists. It does represent just how much of a shadow the Klingon Empire had become; not unlike a certain other country you repeated reference in this video. Also, what was the name/spelling of that 24th century Klingon monitor design? Krom? Crom? Ckrom?

@scottjutras2854

Жыл бұрын

A little late on the warning there for me at least. Damn near had my heart catapult out of my chest there

@sharlin648

Жыл бұрын

*Deafened by outraged honour* WHAT!?

@carnifexor3010

Жыл бұрын

I thought it was helarious!

@s3p4kner

Жыл бұрын

More likes, get this PSA to the top of the comments lol.

I always imagined they gave these ships to old veterans for basically suicide missions. Funny we don’t see Klingon ramming attacks so much, seems up there alley.

Someone is also a fan of Lazerpig I see...

@toptiergaming6900

Жыл бұрын

Not the only one

@goughrmp

Жыл бұрын

A man of culture

"You don't just...upgrade things." (U.S.S. Lakota has entered the chat) I am enjoying your content quite a bit, been binging your stuff as it comes up in my feed!

@stab74

2 ай бұрын

The B-52 has also entered the chat.

Most of the Klingon empires ships in the Dominion war were obsolete older designs, plus take into account the losses with its conflicts with the cardassians previously and the federation

@Hartzilla2007

Жыл бұрын

Mostly the Federation, the Cardassians looked to be a one sided beat down where at worst they were slowed down a bit.

Am a lazerpig subscriber for a long time and am very very proud of you

This is exactly why I'm a big fan of the Star Trek Online timeline. The KDF did have this come to Jesus moment after the Dominion War and realized its fleet was utterly inadequate and launched a huge program of modernization. By 2411 the KDF is keeping up with Starfleet using newer and more effective Birds-of-Prey and powerhouse capital ships like the Bortasqu' battleships and the absolutely colossal Vo'Devwl battle carrier. The Klingon Empire of Star Trek Online is one that learned it's lesson and decided it didn't want to be the sick man of the Alpha Quadrant anymore. Granted it still has a corruption problem but it's learned that they can't just brainlessly hang on to 100 year old ships and expect them to keep up.

@trazyntheinfinite9895

Жыл бұрын

Aaaaand they they released the d7 again. And again.

@barrybend7189

Жыл бұрын

​@@trazyntheinfinite9895 though in this case with a 25th century refit. Giving the basic platform a modern twist and giving it a new purpose.

Dude remember the Ukraine are using western updated T 72 battle tanks . This makes me wonder what if Star fleet helped update some of those old Klingon warships. Given how Star fleet update the excelsior class , it’s not to far off the mark to say they could do the same for the Klingons

@venomgeekmedia9886

Жыл бұрын

They are not to mention all the stuff they've captured and yet they still asked for modern Western systems...

@MrMcSpiff

Жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 I mean, to be fair, the shit they captured really didn't do many favors to the guys they captured it from, did it?

Klingon Armchair Generals must be on a whole 'nother level.

I don't care how good or bad was in universe, the K'tinga and the BoP simply are some of the most bad ass looking designs in all of trek :)).

@venomgeekmedia9886

Жыл бұрын

yeah in much the same way those T tanks hit my aesthetic buttons. i know its terrible... but i love the IS-3

K'tinga sounds like armpit smell in portuguese. I always get a grin when hearing it's name

Personally, I think it's because it's available en masse. Like the mirandas in the federation. it is a ship with a known legacy, but certainly not a first-rate ship. Also, If my memory is correct, DS9's deffences were modified with federation tech as well as the cardassian tech.

Killer vid Micheal! Thank you!

Well done, my friend! Excellent fusion of policy and design. The sad thing is that in the hands of a more functional society, the K'Tinga, like the Miranda, could be refashioned into decent destroyers or escorts. Put in some new engines, give it a decent heavy phaser and wing disruptors, and some ventral and dorsal phasers, and it could do a decent job in that destroyer role to support the Vorcha or K'Vort. But, as you say, such a wholistic refit would require a proper scientific and industrial base for the massive refit to work. And the Klingons don't have that anymore. You know things are bad for the K'Tinga when pre-War Galor commanders see a K'Tinga and rub their hands together in anticipation and pre-order the celebratory kanar.

@venomgeekmedia9886

Жыл бұрын

At that point though why not just build something new.

@venomgeekmedia9886

Жыл бұрын

Yeah galor was built to overmatch the excelsior of the time. And the Ktinga was inferior to excelsior so...

@crownprincesebastianjohano7069

Жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 Agreed. The value of keeping an old ass ship around that requires as much work as a new ship is not enough to justify the expense. It isn't like the Connie refit that was modifying a 20-30 year old space frame to keep it relevant for another 20 years. Then again, the Lakota Refit was quite successful, while also being a matter of urgent need.

Great video and analysis. Love you bringing some real world events as examples. Again your ability to read between lines and expand the Trek universe warfare, is next level.

I dunno I still think it would have been possible to retrofit the K'tinga just enough, so it could be of use. Perhaps not as a frontline ship, but more of an escort and or strife cruiser. I mean the idea of making it a monitor in itself was not a bad idea as I do think the K'tinga was still able to fit the role but certainly the implementation and execution left a lot to be desired. I would just up the weapons, the targeting systems and the cloaking device, replace the main computer, and perhaps you could have something. Now rather if one can do this without a complete overhaul is unknown, but the overall framework of the K'kinga is robust enough, so I think it could work if given time. Its that time thing is where the biggest both came from TBH.

@nunya3163

Жыл бұрын

If the Klingons had an economy like the Federation, they likely would have been able to upgrade it, as the Feds upgraded the Excelsior class. In many ways, this is one of the stronger comparisons to Russia (this, and poor leadership). The U.S. and Russia both use equipment that was originally designed 50-6 years ago. For the U.S., systems such as the Nimitz class carrier, F-15s, and the M1 Abrahms tanks have all been updated numerous times, and remain at least front line capable, if not outright superior to most other nations. None of them use the same communications, radars, targeting systems, etc that they were originally built with. Many of their weapons have been upgraded, engines upgraded. About the only thing that was not upgraded, where the nuclear reactors on the Nimitz, and the structure of it's flight deck, as it was cheaper to build a new carrier. Russia simply was not able to upgrade and improve their equipment in this way, and as a result, equipment that was at least competitive in the 1970's, is sorely lacking compared to U.S. capabilities. One example of this, is the lack of thermal sites on the Russian tanks. While some have them, not all do. This places them at a distinct disadvantage, as they are essentially blind in comparison to modern forces. Then add in Russia's complete lack of logistical support, and no pre-planning of the invasion, failure to support their tanks with infantry, and you get the CF you see in Ukraine.

@themadoneplays7842

Жыл бұрын

@@nunya3163 Yeah such things are always an issue, I mean the Klingons had a major setback when they went to war against the Cardassians/ Federation and likely the empire was in tatters. I mean, it was also in tatters after the Klingon civil war, so it exacerbated things farther.

@roberthilton5328

Жыл бұрын

I think the space used by the original weapons systems (computers, fire control, powerplant) limit what can be put in as an upgrade. More powerful weapons need more volume, thus bigger ships. There's also the powerplant energy capacity, and what's the maximum power that can be sent through conduits/circuits, etc. Newer weapons, computers, guidance, it all needs more power, and also the conduits and circuits to channel it.

@themadoneplays7842

Жыл бұрын

@@roberthilton5328 I dunno I mean why not retrofit disruptors or a reactor from a Bird of Prey of similar size? I mean, one can imagine that the Bird of Prey doesn't differ that much from the K'tinga in terms of internals, the Klingons love to stick to tried and true designs even when upgrading their hardware. And even if they were different, they still have smaller Birds of Preys out there to mod parts from until newer ships became available.

@roberthilton5328

Жыл бұрын

@@themadoneplays7842 Maybe the space for disruptors or reactor could work as you propose, but what about the power conduits between from that new reactor _to_ those new systems? If you can't push enough power, neither reactor nor new weapons, control or fire control do any good.

Clicked for a deconstruction of K'tinga in DS9 and Khitomer Massacre, got a decent commentary of the Ukraine conflict.

Opening goes full laserpig...... I keep a sub. In all honesty the K'tinga languished in the TNG era due to a major focus on Bird of prey development and the Vorcha and Neg'varh programs. If properly upgraded or given a successor based on it's frame it would serve a very good light battlecruiser role. The fact that in STO the K'tinga has a 25th century "refit" that is an entirely new ship built around it's old concept and is shown to be a powerful ship says something about the base frame.

@merafirewing6591

Жыл бұрын

It probably would've been the Klingon equivalent to the Miranda if it had the proper upgrades.

@barrybend7189

Жыл бұрын

​@@merafirewing6591 that's where I'm going with it. They went from torpedo boat doctrine of early battleship era France to dreadnoughts. They didn't build any medium cruisers to support either doctrine.

This was great. Keep it up

1st People seems to always underestimate the Klingon Emperor. If the Federation did not save the Detapa Council the Klingon would have won the war befor it even started. 2nd with Martok as the new Chancellor the Emperors was only going to be getting stronger.

God, imagine klingons beaming whole elite marine regiments into the void instead of DS-9, then losing their flagship to the planet without navy, then losing thousands of ships because the fuel tankers got bogged down in the space mud or something, and many, many other things happening to them. The memes, Jack!

Got a soft spot for it though...

Topical! And I agree- the K'Tinga's performance in the battle of Kiev was abysmal. It was as if they weren't even there.

OMG love that opening!

It all goes back to the destruction of Praxus. The Klingon Empire fell considerably after that and never really recovered. The infiltration by the Shape Shifters also slowed much progress of rebuilding. K'Tinga Warships were built as you say in the 23rd Century and the Klingon's had very little natural resources and financial means to build any new significant fleets/space faring ships. I would compare the Klingon Empire to North Korea, starving its masses while building a few nukes and new missiles, outfitting most of the infantry with new small arms/uniforms while riding into war in 1960's/70's armor fighting vehicles.

I never thought of it that way your right the Borg may have saved star-fleet by destroying it I never payed much attention to the Klingon ships just the vorcha and the d7 and the bird of pray.

The real problem, for all countries who use Tanks, IFV, APC etc... Is that there is a new generation of Anti-tank weapons, which are capable of knocking out any modern MBT, and many forces across the world possess these relatively cheap weapon systems Its not just the Russians loosing tanks, propaganda on both sides are not showing their own losses or the scale of said losses Other conflicts in recent years has demonstrated the same results in regards to the loss of armored vehicles and light armored vehicles. This is why laser based defense systems are being developed and deployed to see and knock out incoming rounds and missiles, by groups like DARPA and Rienmettal. We only are talking about this now, because western media Dosen't show the losses of western forces on tv.

So a half hour video to tell us that the K'tinga is really, really old? Thaanks.

Ohh, the nostalgia hit when you started the engines part...

I remember my mother got my a napoleononic war chess set . ( napoleon is King Josephine, queen, ect ) wonderful figures. ( birthday present. I think o was 12ish )

The president of Belarus with a presentation on the K'tinga bit. That was awesome. 🤌

There are limits to how far a platform can be upgraded. With any platform, there is a finite amount of space that can be used for upgrading and improving it. Eventually, you just run out of space.

PhaserTorg showing once again why the Klingon's stopped really being a power that's just been coasting bye on their reputation.

The fact that any factions in the Trek universe use hundred-year-old ships has always baffled me, especially the use of ancient K’Tingas in the Dominion War. This video makes so much sense; thank you!

The K'tinga's loss is the Kreosian F5's gain.

Personally, I think the K'tinga shows the problem with Tex Talk Battletech's Good Enough argument. Good enough for a brief time to be a mass-produced capital ship, but quickly fell behind as evident when the new light poor man ships the Miranda Class Light Cruiser, later Frigate, was able to beat it in one on one combat, and Starfleet produced the next line of Standard Cruiser, the Excelsior. Honestly, I think the only ship that would follow further from grace is the Scarb (Jem'Haddar Attack Fighter) Class Attack Ship. I mean, it was a ship made to be built in mass numbers and be good enough to threaten others in mass numbers. It quickly became one of the slowest ships at FTL and later Impulse to other similar size ships, and its weaponry was limited. I suspect that in the next 30 years, the Dominion will need to find a replacement if they continue a rivalry with the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Also, I hate to tell you this, but once you reach a certain design, it is really hard to justify making a new class. There is a reason all tanks, warships, and aircraft look similar to how they look in the 1970s, we kind of reached a sort of Plato in design that outside inner components, there is not more you can do to improve it. So they generally either upgrade ones or design similar models with new components to be built to replace aging older models (F-15C to F-15EX being a good example). That is why I don't find it weird to see the Excellisor still in service a hundred years later. It's a fairly good armored design for a standard cruiser that was designed to be upgradable after Starfleet learned its lessons from the Constitution. Then making the Obena and Excelsior II with just incorporated new technology while keeping the prime design for Starfleet still need a brawling armored standard cruiser to fight with their heavier counterparts. I mean to put in protection from working with the US Airforce, to build a C-5 Super Galaxy, it cost 1.6 billion to build a new one. Upgrading an old one by replacing the engines and inner components to get the same performance level, cost around 300 million. While old, we can get 40 more years of life before we have to retire so we just upgrade them.

Can't believe gallon was replaced with a shapeshifter

Well, we do kind of have the Fek'lhr-class lighter cruiser, from Starfleet Command III and Armada 2, as I recall? Over a hundred metres longer than the K't'inga, packs a good portion of a Vor'cha's mass and firepower... May not be numerous or flexible enough, though, to replace the K't'Inga outright, yet.

@barrybend7189

Жыл бұрын

Star Trek Online has a K'tinga refit that streamlines and improves the ship. I'd wish it has a new name but it's a good design.

Multiple factors why the Klingon stop their Invasion. 1. Dominion threat. Didn't want to lost many ships so soon. It wasn't a question if Dominion would invade. It rather when. 2. Not wanting to risk open war with Federation, especially with Klingon forces divided with one third of their forces on other side of Federation with their leader trap behind enemy line. 3: cut supply if war opens. Klingon force would need time to dig in the occupied space they took. They likely didn't think Federation would react so quickly as they did. 4. Cardassins while putting up a stiff resistance would likely be overrun or at least Klingon would be in striking range to threaten Cardassins prime. They were going through some changing the guard and government reforms when suddenly attack. Compare being under the Dominion were they was more organized. 5.DS9 was more of a challenge then previous believe along with Federation reinforcements which I do believe was key objective to take at some point after the invasion. Ultimately, the situation was becoming more hotter then Klingon were expecting.

K'Tinga belongs where all Klingon ships belong... IN THE TRASH!!! *this message was approved by the Romulan Imperial Navy*

@Not-Ap

Жыл бұрын

Jolan Tru

The upgrade argument kinda explains why the tos constutiom and tmp constitution look like different ships is basically is a different ship

@nunya3163

Жыл бұрын

That shows the cost of upgrades. Look at some of the WWII carriers that the U.S. upgrades for jets in the 1950's. They look like a completely different ship. That said, many upgrades can be made, without such radical re-design. Just look at the Nimitz class carriers, been around for nearly 50 years. The flight decks and reactors are the same, but all of the electronics, including radars, etcs. are completely different, and are vastly superior to the ship from the 70's. Likewise with many of our aircraft, they look outwardly similar, but all of the sensors, targeting systems, etc are completely different, as are the engines in many cases.

@spudz7405

Жыл бұрын

@@nunya3163 ye I know what you mean

Was not expecting a Lazerpig rant for the intro 😂

I clicked on this thinking I would hate it, but you gave very good and thoughtful points and now I don't think I can watch a ds9 episode again with this ship in it and take it serious anymore...👍👍👍🖖 Good job

I appreciate the missile meme reference.

I wonder how much it frosts K'tinga commanders than an Excelsior can be equipped with quantum torpedoes and modern phasers and shields. The Federation can deploy their outmoded ships to some degree of success, while theirs just demonstrate the extent of the power creep since the time of Kirk.

Congratulations Venom: you made the Miranda's fans feel a little less down-trodden.😁

I saw the title to this and just laughed. Okay, Admiral! Convince me. 😂

For a second I thought I clicked lazerpig

I'd also point out that in that volley of return fire from DS9, They also knocked out a minimum of 2 Vor'Cha. Total losses of Vor'Cha 6, Total Losses of K'Tinga 11. -MemAlpha, Take with salt. I'd say for such an old ship, it wasn't too far behind the Vor'cha in losses. If we want to take that battle as an example, from what we see, Vor'Cha didn't stand too much better a chance than K'Tinga. And many of their losses would have been mitigated if the didn't close to point blank range to make attack runs. K'Tingas should of sat back and Pummeled DS9 from range, it's the perfect job for them. They didn't do that, and they got wrecked for it. That's a failure of Tactics, not a failure of equipment. Feels like a bit of a Swing of the Pendulum too far to one side here. K'Tinga was old as balls, sure, but it wasn't as bad as you are making it out to be.

@ryuukeisscifiproductions1818

Жыл бұрын

not really a good example as the Vorcha's due to being a more modern ship an a more dangerous one, would have been a higher priority target than the elderly K'tinga's.

An excellent video, both in acknowledging your missteps and correcting them. While I would like to have seen a more content on the new KDF Montior, it was still a great video. Also...would you say this was a T-80 but in space? On a side note, if you still wanted to support the UAF based on the current situation- why not videos covering thr Earth-Romulan War? (Outside the battles as I know those were covered)

@venomgeekmedia9886

Жыл бұрын

I will probably do a video on the Kron since it's a cool design. As for revisiting the romulan earth war... possibly

The issue is that the Klingons kept the D7/K'Tinga in production for waaaaaaaay too long, relying on quantity rather than quality and lacking the Federations huge industrial base, the Federation can do both quality and quantity. By the standards of the time the Excelsior class was a huge overmatch for almost anything out there, and they farted them out in huge numbers. The Klingons with the D7 had a decent ship, it was a match for the Constitution class and they would probably have a numerical advantage. But as the Federation moved onto the Excelsior and Ambassador the KDF didn't move on and just kept iterating on the D7 and its family. Whilst the KDF probably did have other designs for larger ships (we see some in Klingon Academy) the empire was set up to keep churning out the D7/K'tinga classes and all they could really do was iterate on them as best they could to get the best performance out of a clearly aging ship. As time went on even the growing obsolecence of the D7 couldn't be ignored and we get the KDF switching over to the Vor'cha as its main cruiser but there was so many hundreds of K'Tinga's in service that they couldn't replace them all. Although we'd probably see the K'tinga being shuffled into the House Fleets as the Vor'cha comes online in greater numbers. Really the K'tInga saw its best days as the Ambassador and co came out, it was still inferior to them individually, but would probably have the numerical advantage. Of course, this advantage went out the window as the Federation just spammed the Excelsior which was still a massive overmatch for the K'Tinga.

So basically the Ktinga is like the klingons version of an excelsior or miranda, built in the late 23rd century and by the time of the dominion war effectively no longer fit for purpose, even with refits. That a bit like with buff up Galaxy class varients, of said war, necessitated a complete rebuild as anew class to make it useful as a warship again.

oh i didn't hammer my keyboard.... I got the popcorn!!!!

Great video!

Honestly I think the VFX artists just had the same kind of fun with the K'Tingas as they did with the Mirandas, which was that they had a recognizable ship to use as cannon fodder. Of course, they also rather annoyingly seemed to forget that shields were a thing, which is why you had fans inventing reasons for that (hull-hugging shields instead of the traditional layered bubbles because reasons). In universe it really doesn't have to be any more complicated than the fact both the K'Tingas and Mirandas were both 100 year old designs that were just inadequate both defensively and offensively against more modern ships using more modern weapons and shields.

I love this shit. And I absolutely love the idea that these combined arms tactics of the opposing sides truly do make sence. But does it really and do all these random factiods really fit together like particular pieces of a puzzle that can be fit together into an overarching logical framework that does actually hold together, or is it really just mental masterbation?

I really do like this long form laser pig inspired critique

I can't understand why the Vorcha wasn't put into mass production. Seemed odd to me

@nunya3163

Жыл бұрын

The Klingon's did not have the economy to support mass production. It's actually in line with the comparison to Russia, who simply does not have the economy to field their most advanced systems in any numbers. They also cannot maintain/upgrade the equipment that they have, as the U.S. has done.

@venomgeekmedia9886

Жыл бұрын

It was but its still expensive. They needed a mid size ship to support the BOPs and vorcha

@canyonntt6969

Жыл бұрын

@Nun Ya if it's an economy thing how the hell did they design, and build the Neg'Var? If their economy is so bad it shouldn't have made it off the drawing board.

@canyonntt6969

Жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 that makes sense

@nunya3163

Жыл бұрын

@@canyonntt6969 The Neg'Var was a one off. Russia still comes up with some designs for some very capable systems (Armada tank), but cannot afford to build them in any numbers.

Hi lazerpig called said he wanted his wine back.....

What you said: "The gun is effectively a generation 1 lance phaser" What I heard: "The gun is effectively sheit"

5:35 : 'Bolognium engine shields', huh? 😉

K'Tinga the Klingon Excelsior. Could we get a video on the Klingon Alliance (or assistance/aid) to the Federation Sect the Marqis? That will be interesting.

@venomgeekmedia9886

Жыл бұрын

Yeah that would be interesting... the worst of the maquis was arguably overshadowed by the klingon invasion.

@Marinealver

Жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 Gowron (or was it Martok) did tell Cisco that they gave the Marquis a cloaking device to aid them. We can only assume there was more arms like maybe proton torpedoes as well.

That intro gave me big lazerpig energy

I wonder when the D7 production stopped. Probably when the Kamarag entered production. You are absoletly right about upgraades but that doesn't mean a Mark 1 D7A from the 2260s is the same beast as a Mark 5 D7K from the 2310s.

I luaghed the moment you mentioned Lazer Pig because your open was in his style so I wondered if you were a fan.

With the start I thought this was Lazerpig for a second

That opening was worthy of Laserpig.

The intro sounded like you were trying your best laser pig impression

It does have a bussard ramscoop, on the aft superstructure ahead of the shuttlebay.

@venomgeekmedia9886

Жыл бұрын

That's more a radiator system for the engine

What's the point of the long neck, it looks like a major weakness. There don't seem to be any important systems inside of it, so why don't just remove it and shorten the way between the bridge and the rear section?

@truetheternal2314

Жыл бұрын

with shields the neck is irrelevant. if the shields are down the whole ship toast. also, Klingon ships are heavily armored with the neck actually being one of the more armored sections. look how big it is and think its main purpose is to provide access to the forward section and run conduits. not much else has you noted. that means the bulk of its size is armor and likely reinforced structure so not has weak and vulnerable has it looks probably.

Cheers

Gowron: "I want ships now!". Klingon reserve fleet: "MOAR KAMARAGS!!!1!"

@venomgeekmedia9886

Жыл бұрын

Yeah kamarags would probably have been an improvement

@red.5475

Жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 Do we have a number of how many Kamarags were built?

Oh, you commanded one? 😆 🤣

Any monitor in the Klingon fleet is going to struggle, I doubt the replacement for the K'Tinga did much better, because it does not fit the fast moving ad hoc tactics that Klingon's employ. I agree that the K'Tinga was a desperation move which they probably thought would work due to the weaker technology and not very agile Cardasian ships. But similar to what we are seeing in Ukraine when the opposition is provided with newer tech and faster ships from the Dominion and Breen the poor K'Tinga's are going to have a really bad time.

Gotta love the lazerpig reference

Would there have been a better way to modernize the K’tinga? Like as a destroyer similar to the Miranda or could it not have had the agility to do anything like that?

Brilliant analysis and tie in to modern events. Is the K'tinga basically a T-64? Excellent in its prime, but upgrades can only take a 60 year old frame so far?

@venomgeekmedia9886

9 ай бұрын

Yeah 64 is probably the best comparison

As an old SFB player: "Oh, that's what we're going to do today, we're going to fight?"

@venomgeekmedia9886

Жыл бұрын

Is it good in that game?

There is something that always bothered me about Klingon ships. Why build ships with fight with a slingshot instead of a fully automatic rifle? They built there ships to fight head-first instead of multiple weapon points along their hull.

It's common practice for militaries to find use of older platforms - it's a huge hunk of steel / duranium you got to put together for new ships. In war you need numbers so it's either that or you accept producing low quality new platforms (ala Liberty boats in WW2). Mind you NATO also keep M-60s and Leopard 1's around. In terms of use / tactic, they can still serve for lower tier missions. Not every outpost is DS9. KDF can probably set up fire brigades to bombard softer targets like mining colonies.

Back in your Dominion War Arms Race video, you mentioned the Starfleet doctine shift for units sizes. In particular interoperation with Klingon forces. The K'tinga may do marginally better with Starfleet forces. It is still designed to fight another kind of war.