I think one reason books are getting really trope heavy (besides laziness) is that authors have started viewing their books like internet media. They want their book to appear in as many search results as possible, and algorithms are increasingly presenting tropes. "Because you liked enemies to lovers, here are 100 other enemies to lovers books". So authors are doing the equivalent of keyword stuffing: trope stuffing. Put every trope you can think of into the book so you can list them as keywords. Algorithms don't recognize original concepts. We may soon have to look at the last page of search results for the original books.

@geckojinn1604

7 күн бұрын

makes sense

@saramm3765

6 күн бұрын

Yes and those quick hit IG images showing the tropes for the book to gain interest

@randomchannel323

5 күн бұрын

Kinda the book version of how all tiktok meme edits use the same songs

@Iron-Bridge

5 күн бұрын

Good points. Similar to how many companies became smart about playing the SEO ( search engine optimisation) tactic when Google was getting more use back in the day. Then everyone and their grandparents saturates the whole scene because everyone knows the tactics.

@LoveCrumb

4 күн бұрын

I really hate this trend of books appealing more to the algorithm and fleeting internet hype than to the interests of the reader (and frankly, the author)

The repetition in the rhythm of titles drives me nuts. A Song of Ice and Fire, A Court of Cliches and Tropes

@nalublackwater9729

2 күн бұрын

That second title is ideal for a spoof book.

Yeah we have a quantity over quality problem right now.

@benco804

7 күн бұрын

Everything always has.

@Iron-Bridge

5 күн бұрын

Yes. The nature of things when there's a low bar to entry and lower bar to what's considered quality.

@Authorthings

3 күн бұрын

Word

@yoonahkang7384

3 күн бұрын

It started with harry potter (i love hp, dont misintepret me). They realized books were narketable

Gotta agree on the language. Nothing breaks immersion like characters saying something "for the win" or that someone is "hot as f$%#"

@Rabanthebrain

7 күн бұрын

Trying to read fourth wing because it's hotshit. Alright we're in some vaguely early modern fantasy setting, great. Then I read "for the win"

@izmatopia4347

7 күн бұрын

In fantasy, I don't want the word "hot" unless it's describing temperature. Please, give me the poetry when you talk about your loved one. "Hot" is such a pedestrian concept, which is fine for modern worlds, not ancient/old worlds. That's bare minimum to me.

@AntheaReads

6 күн бұрын

"For the win" = Fourth Wing = Wtf

@user-bk8er1pw8k

5 күн бұрын

@@izmatopia4347 /r/iamverysmart

@yassenpetrov2303

5 күн бұрын

'😈', said the Dark One.

Honestly the height thing 🤣 all these men are like 6’5” and “massive” 😂😂😂

@siobhaneringde

7 күн бұрын

😭😭😭 just make them 7'10 alr

@quitabanana3684

6 күн бұрын

I kinda feel a little bit liiiiike well..??? Women have been described the same way for an eternity, strictly to be lusted over so a little part of me like oh well lol that may also be because I love imagining a 6’5 muscle god so I’m biased but I get that across the board we need diversity in terms of body types. Short kings, fat kings, medium kings, all the kings!

@TiaraClarese

6 күн бұрын

I kinda like this trope because my BF is 6’5 and I’m 5’5 lmaooooo 🤭😅

@IxiaRayne

6 күн бұрын

As a 6’4” woman who’s not thin I like that a lot :D

@Joyride37

5 күн бұрын

Not to mention 6’5 muscle beefcake with 16 abs is probably really uncomfortable to cuddle and feels like a board. Let’s bring back celebrating blacksmith builds and dad bods bc at least they got cushion as well as being functionally strong for that fantasy ideal

"I can't handle the characters that have a chip on their shoulder and are also really stupid" -- YES YES YES.

@mori1bund

4 күн бұрын

Actually pretty much everything combined with idiocy doesn't work (for me). ^^

@PePethePedalPusher

4 күн бұрын

Stupid enough to seek revenge, smart enough to come up with a plan that convinces others to go along with the doomed mission. haha, these can be great side characters though or bad guys

The modern language drives me crazy in particular when everyone talks like a 14-year-old that just discovered swear words. That was part of what threw me off about Fourth Wing, was even the old generals spoke like modern teenagers.

"Moronically snarky MC " 😂yes! I cannot stand this type of main character, it completely ruins a book for me. It also feels like there are only two typed of girls/women that exist in fantasy romances: either a snarky badass or a quirky wallflower (who also suddenly tends to become snarky when she meets the love interest). It's so frustrating! I agree with all other points as well, especially the All Lust, No Love and constant descriptions of how hot the characters are. Our society is already so hyperfocused on appearance that seeing the same thing in books is just annoying. I don't want to read about square jaws and chiseled abs, I want to read about emotional and intellectual connections the characters develop.

@misamisaa4547

5 күн бұрын

The "only 2 types of women" is so true 😭 like why can't we have a MC who is literally just a normal girly girl? She can still be badass without having to be "not like other girls", edgy just for the sake of being edgy or 'quirky'... We need romance authors to have a Barbie marathon ffs...

@Iron-Bridge

5 күн бұрын

Hear hear! As a man, I can't stand the terribly written woman characters written as love interests by mostly male writers back in the day. Typical hot girl who's only there to fulfill the obligatory sex scene/ wish fulfilment of the male protagonist. As if she has no agency or layers beyond her relationship to said male protagonist. In recent times, we have a crop of women writers who are just as terrible with their characters. 🤦

@luskaneseprince

3 күн бұрын

​@@misamisaa4547 Where are the "not like other girls" though... I only ever see the kind of women you just wished there were more of...

@Oozaru85

Күн бұрын

Well, I don't mind having fit, handsome male characters in books. Sure, the emotional connection between characters is important. But whats wrong woth looking at your love interest thinking "he/she is so gorgeous looking"? Like, it's the most natural thing in the world to be physically attracted to another person due to their looks. So yeah, I want both. Chiseled abs as well as emotional/intellectual connection. Both are important to me in a relationship.

@pasiaomega3868

Күн бұрын

This here is what I call the someone-let-a-preteen-girl-ghost-write-this technique 😂🤦🏽‍♀️💀

Just say "Fourth Wing"

@prashantkumar4217

6 күн бұрын

😂

@alyssum130

2 күн бұрын

😂😂😂

@strega0

2 күн бұрын

YEP

Shrek has the best fantasy romances - there, I've said it 😄😄

@kattodoggo3868

5 күн бұрын

🥨

@Prototype-357

3 күн бұрын

Fr 💚🧅

@renflower1910

3 күн бұрын

SO TRUE!!! Not saying it as a joke, this is very true!

@yoonahkang7384

3 күн бұрын

True.

The “stupid, snarky protagonist” only works for me if they actually have some consequences for being stupid and snarky, like they get fired because they rudely refuse help from a more experienced person (setting themselves up to both fail their task and burn their bridges at that workplace at the same time). It’s the stupid, snarky protagonists who somehow are always proven right and somehow always succeed that pop up all over the place though, and they drive me nuts.

@misamisaa4547

5 күн бұрын

I know what you mean - they start of all confident & arrogant & get beaten down a peg or ten in the book. Tho normally I prefer if the moronic snarky character is a side character 'cuz you don't have to deal with their BS for as long as it takes for them to realise they fucked up

@gamerjt7593

4 күн бұрын

question, if the protagonist does indeed get consequences for their actions, lets say they get humiliated and they know it, but they also get support from other characters, would that negate the kinda impact of their consequence? idk if that makes sense but thats the best i could explain it 😭

OMG, the "male" "female" thing has bothered me FOR YEARS. It started in romance and has migrated as romance authors have moved more towards fantasy. It's SOOOOOOOO cringe.

Im really tired of how all the protagonists became queen in the end even though they said at beginning they hate royals and nobles but as soon they "fall in love with a prince" they change themselves. Also that trope: oh-I-was-a-lost-princess .

A good way I spot these same old romantasy novels is by checking the book covers. The book covers also seem to follow a certain trend.

@Iron-Bridge

5 күн бұрын

🤣 Know exactly what you're talking about. They're just as ubiquitous and terrible as music marketing executives back in the day. PR and marketing factories.

Enemies to lovers (or friends!) is such a trip for me. Either the author writes it too soft so the main characters aren't really enemies--more like mildly inconvenienced with one another upon first meeting--or they go in HARD and it feels too mean and personal to come back from 😅

@Joyride37

5 күн бұрын

Personally why I prefer rivals to lovers, or at least describing it as that. Some people say the ultimate enemies to lovers is Pride and Prejudice and everything else is a failed knock off. Others say a true enemies to lovers is they should be obsessively trying to kill or thwart each other and are actually enemies on opposite sides, while having a mutual respect and obsession with each other. Both are p different, and I like both if they’re done well. The former is like the first example you said, done poorly they’re just kinda mildly inconveniencing each other while annoyed they’re attracted to one another, as opposed to challenging each others biases and learning from each other. On the other hand the second is like-yikes idk if this is a believable transition to a relationship depending on how far one pairing goes during the enemies portion

I hate when the fantasy book I was so excited to read turns out to be fantasy romance with lots of these tropes. Happened to me few times this year already :/ can't wait t o see what the 'fantasy books with miniscule romance plot' is

@zoebrugg7594

7 күн бұрын

Same! I hate the surprise smut fest because I love fantasy, just without the spice! ... At least not that kind of spice.

@RyeMiArt

7 күн бұрын

@@zoebrugg7594 yeah, if I wanted that, I'd pick that in the first place. So many 'fantasy' books with interesting premises were ruined for me to the point I don't pick a fantasy book when it has 'romance' tag on goodreads anymore, no matter how interesting it might seem.

@janellelives5158

6 күн бұрын

⁠@@zoebrugg7594I’ve taken a long break from reading young adult and new adult fantasy because of this. I’m only in my early twenties but since I’ve always been an avid reader the smut and tropes started annoying me during my late teens. Once you read the popular series like TOG you’ve basically kind of have read it all. While there are still unique books in the genre, I think they are the minority at the moment. I’ve found that fantasy and science fiction books outside of those genre spaces have more to offer me at this point in my life.

@danikajayde8577

4 күн бұрын

I self published a trilogy quite a few years ago now. I purposely limited the amount of romance in it because so many books have it so much and without any logical purpose.

@zoebrugg7594

4 күн бұрын

@@danikajayde8577 I’m a writer too interested in self publishing one day, how’s it going for you?

11:00 I think doormat love interests are actually a large waste of opportunity for some deep characterization. People don't become doormats for no reason--they just learn early in life that there is no point in asserting themselves, so they just learn to let people walk all over them. Though not fantasy, one manga that explores the doormat psyche fantastically is Goodnight Punpun.

@marikothecheetah9342

5 күн бұрын

Thanks for the suggestion :)

@naurahdeatrisyagitany8365

2 сағат бұрын

Ooh, that reminds me of Yue Qingyuan from Scum Villain's Self-Saving System

Enemies to Lovers has variants. My least fave is when they are supposed to be on the same side and enemies over some trivial interpersonal misunderstanding. My fave fave favorite is when they are both honorable mature people but their nations are at war, or he killed her father, or only one of them can win the elixir of eternal life to save their sick mom/dog whatever… then you don’t need Snark and Miscommunication to keep them apart. They are driven apart by real differences.

@perlapamela2023

5 күн бұрын

have you read anything like that? i need some recommendations

@pvp6077

5 күн бұрын

Yeah, what I don't like is snark for snark's sake and relationships based on needless and gratuitous betrayal. My best friend's mom watches a lot of Hallmark and there's about ten million movies about someone surveying a town/farm/business so they can bulldoze it/sell it out from under them/undercut their market for a big corporation, and every single time they start a romantic relationship with the person they're scheming against without telling them they are, or are planning to, destroy their life for profit. The love interest gets mad, the guy makes some grand gesture and an emotional speech about how he totally changed his mind after he ✨fell in love with her✨, she forgives him, the end. And almost every single one starts with them being needlessly, even moronically snarky to eachother. For no discernible reason. Until they either get in an argument that somehow turns into a makeout session or one if them does or says something uncharacteristically sentimental leading the other one to realise "There's more to them than I thought 🥺" The endless repetition of these 2 tropes has turned me off them completely in any context. It takes willpower to even give any kind of "enemies to lovers" story a chance because a good 80% of them are exactly that type of bs and the other 20% aren't necessarily good either. I think Pride and Prejudice and Much Ado About Nothing are the gold standards and the umpteen bazillion imitators just cannot handle it. One in a million is actually decent.

@Prene16

Күн бұрын

​@@perlapamela2023I recently read Daindreth's assassin, and it has more than one really good enemies to lovers plots. And the character are actually really clever, there is zero pettiness, zero stupidity, just circumstances that place them on different sides and they have to deal with them. But if you want a book that takes aaaages for the characters to stop viewing each others as enemies, that ain't it. They are too mature and the world is in too much peril for that. Great books though

This is why I love the Emily Wilde’s books. She is not helpless, she is an academic, her love interest is annoying but he LIKES her actually like her as a person… the plot is smart and the fey aren’t evil “just because”

@0rang350da

2 күн бұрын

I love those books too! So good!

I totally agree with you about the whole male/female thing. I hate when people use male/female as nouns when talking about people. It is incorrect and generally fairly inhumanizing. When talking about people, male/female are adjectives like a male singer or a female astronaut. But the male singer is a man and the female astronaut is a woman 😂

@xiiir838

5 күн бұрын

Tell me you're joking, please this cannot be real

@tokyo_taxi7835

4 күн бұрын

Agreed. It comes off sounding like a nature documentary. "The pale-haired male is sending signals of unease to his rival."

@baristaz8834

3 күн бұрын

​@@xiiir838they aren't lying, what they said is 1000% true, and 9f you have problem with that, look into yourself bud

@xiiir838

3 күн бұрын

@@baristaz8834 I'm fortunate that I don't have the same ideology as you so I'm not deIus¡xnaI

@nanalove3819

3 күн бұрын

As a non-English speaker it is even worse : even as adjective, we only use these for animals, and it was hard at first to adjust when I learned English.

Enemies to lovers is a Pride and Prejudice remake (and often written poorly). Characters immediately falling in love solely because they are hot is Romeo and Juliet (and still just as cringe).

@izmatopia4347

7 күн бұрын

Pride and Prejudice isn't even Enemies to Lovers. It's miscommunication trope 100% lol

@nicoleneedschocolate

7 күн бұрын

@@izmatopia4347 idk if I completely agree with you. Darcy actively works against the bennet family’s best interests by stepping in and preventing bingley from marrying Jane. Elizabeth is constantly trying to down play or smooth over her family’s social flubs in front of bingley to help the match go through. For at least the first half of the book they are actively working against each other for opposite interests even if they didn’t realize it at the time.

@karamarie6781

7 күн бұрын

Cringy, to be sure.

@CarisiCreates

6 күн бұрын

But Midsummer Night’s Dream is the ultimate basis for Fate having a sense of humor and things work out in the end after we have all had a good laugh. (It’s the only Shakespeare piece that I truly like.)

@Joyride37

5 күн бұрын

Romeo and Juliet at least is a Tragedy and knows it is 😂 A lot of people seem to forget that and are like INSTANT LOVE STAR CROSSED PASSION and put it in stories, forgetting that the whole point is that was a bad thing actually bc their families hated each other and got them both killed

You've just described what it's like to read really bad writing basically. And apparently there's quite a lot of it around. These kind of romantasy is basically harlequins with a dash of magic. These tropes are old as...yeah, they're old 😂 And it seems that they will keep on resurfacing in different forms cause there's always audience of people who will read it. It's so formulaic it can be mass produced in no time so perfect for our current 'instant' market of booktok etc.

When it comes to romance-and a good love story-I am a firm believer in "less is more." Attraction can be important (and in fact, UST can be a great tool in building/writing romantic relationships), but if you rely solely on physical attraction to sell your romance, the story feels more like a tale of lust rather than love. There's nothing wrong with that, and many people enjoy those stories too, but if a love story is what you're going after, then you'll have to do the work to sell it to your audience.

@LoveCrumb

4 күн бұрын

YUP!👍

YES, thank you, agree with everything you mentioned. I think one of the issue is that a lot of new writers are mainly inspired by contemporary fantasy romance, and it's extremely limiting. If you think of the greatest writers, they were inspired by History, poetry, the classics, mythology, and not just greek mythology. They were very educated people, and/or had experienced a lot of the world, and because of that were able to create rich and unique worlds, they also had more things to say, and could write deeper stories.

@RoseBaggins

6 күн бұрын

One reason why Lord of the Rings works but not its copycats.

@Iron-Bridge

5 күн бұрын

Very well said. Such writers, both men and women had plenty of real world experience to draw from. I like Tolkien. I also like Mary Shelley's original Frankenstein ( not the typical abridged version). A man who was a war veteran and young woman barely out of her teens with different life experiences and standing yet capable of capturing my attention and admiration with their writing. What's the connection? Both wrote from life experience, observation, reflection, discussion with peers and being unconcerned with market segments.

You basically called out everyone on booktok lmao.

Also in mystery/thriller is feels like every other book is an "And Then There Were None" retelling but done oh so poorly 😅

i am not surprised that fantasy romance has copycats. i mean the romance genre is built upon this concept, i think this is where a lot of clash comes from between fantasy readers and romance readers when figuring out the right balance. i just hate that i am not into all that epic dark fantasy romance/erotica trends. give me more light hearted fantasy romance that isn't just legends and latte.

@sakurablossoms94

6 күн бұрын

My Lady Jane might work. Both the show and the book.

@OrangeStripedGekko

4 күн бұрын

I'd recommend Half a Soul by Olivia Atwater and A Far Wilder Magic by Alison Saft :)

@trennamcmullin9437

4 күн бұрын

Tress of the Emerald Sea or Yumi and the Nightmare Painter might be what you're looking for.

I don't wanna sound mean, but most of the writers that get massively popular online aren't actually writing for the sake of the story. They are writing for the potential money, and use social media as a way to stitch a story together. They don't treat their characters as people with agency, and they don't allow the story to naturally progress. I call these kinds of writers as "cosplay writers" because they have the veneer of being a writer, but there's ultimately nothing there. These books are easily marketable because they hit all the popular words and phrases online, not because there is any substance. And you can like these books all you want, but at the end of the day they are made of nothing.

@RoseBaggins

6 күн бұрын

Good way of putting it and why I don't like most of them.

@vvitch-mist20

6 күн бұрын

@@RoseBaggins Like it something I've noticed more and more over the years. It also kinda inspired my own work because I see what people want, and just put the effort, love and attention it needs. Unfortunately being broke and a single mom I don't have time to market myself lol.

@nessaidolslayer3426

6 күн бұрын

Omg I am stealing the expression "cosplay writer" 😝 and you're right, because it feels really amateurish, like they just read ACOTAR and we're like "you know what? I can do that too!" Except they've never written anything in their life 😅🤦‍♀️

@vvitch-mist20

6 күн бұрын

@@nessaidolslayer3426 I'm glad I'm not alone I don't wanna knock inexperienced or bad writers, since fiction writing is something everyone can do. But these books are soulless and only made to make money. I hate it.

@TheKnoxvicious

6 күн бұрын

ACOTAR and Fourth Wing

Fiction = overwritten short stories. Non-fiction = overwritten magazine articles.

@michaelkikle3018

5 күн бұрын

Fucking thank you! I’ve been reading a lot of old pulp horror and fantasy stuff, and it just absolutely nails why modern novels suck so bad-the BLOAT is killing everything from the novel to cinema. People don’t know when enough is enough. There’s nothing more satisfying than a less-than-two-hundred-pages story that just sticks the landing perfectly. It’s a shame we have what we have, right now.

@Iron-Bridge

5 күн бұрын

You said it. Something I've noticed the past few years. Very off putting to me.

I think Sarah j.maas stole the mate thing from Wattpad 😂

@kattodoggo3868

5 күн бұрын

its such an old term and idea that i cant have people calling her an "inventor".

@xiexielian

4 күн бұрын

@@kattodoggo3868 I saw it in multiple wattpads wolves dark romances ,😅 i feel ashemed just to read this term

@jettash0720

2 күн бұрын

We should just leave that word for animal pairings and British dialogue because we honestly say it A LOT over here it's funny

I think the reason I wasn’t impressed with ACOTAR is because it’s basically a wattpad story and I read too many of those as a teenager 😂

I agree with pretty much all of your points 🤪 I avoid romance-based fiction almost completely because it’s all so ridiculous and unbelievable…none of these books showcase how relationships actually work, lol.

@darkwatch127

7 күн бұрын

​@@AFrolicInTheTomesxxyou can still have realistic relationships in fantastical worlds

@andreibobrov2566

7 күн бұрын

@@AFrolicInTheTomesxx fantasy requires a lot of suspension of disbelief. In case of fantasy romance it’s incredibly hard to achieve

@suc125

7 күн бұрын

@@AFrolicInTheTomesxx we expect them to behave like people so we can relate to them? Sure, their experience might be (and probably will be) different, they can have different worldview and personalities, and the world will shape them differently - but they can still be believable charaters. For example - a veteran of war may suffer from trauma - and it doesn´t matter if the war was fought with pistols, swords or fireballs. Or the "lust romance" - I don´t like it either - because that is crappy romance, it´s not love and "two hot people sleeping with each other" - well, lets say, I thought women were more romantic and appreciete a good romance, if that is their idea of love, they are pretty superficial

@armandvega2752

7 күн бұрын

@@AFrolicInTheTomesxxPlenty of fantasy stories have well developed romances. Geralt and Yennefer from The Witcher Guts and Casca from Bezerk Faramir and Eowyn from Lord of The Rings Edward and Winry from Fullmetal Alchemist Hell even Inuyasha and Kagome are a good example despite how dragged out it was. A lot of these authors just don’t know how to write romance.

@A.M.Ferrer

7 күн бұрын

@@armandvega2752 Guts and Casca's romance is pretty sweet, but I can't get over how it all started over Casca's poorly timed period lmao

The things that you're talking about are the exact reasons why I haven't read a fiction book since the last Harry Potter. I'll just keep writing my own... at least I know they're satisfying.

This is the same in the movie industry. Nothing but remakes of the same old thing for the most part.

Y'know you're the first person who's done a breakdown like this that actually not just makes sense, but takes things from a logical standpoint without being patronizing or that same kind of "over snarky" that are being used too often in books these days. Thank you!

Books are like any other media in the business world. Publishers find a trend and then overwhelm us with the same thing until the market collapses. At this point, I'd like to see a return to LOTR-style fantasy.

Your point of characters only finding each other hot instead of actually loving each other makes me think more authors should have seen the The Swan Princess movie as a kid.

The tan/ethnically ambiguous thing is seriously disingenuous. Authors know the meaning of words and leaving them out (I hope) so trying to get the broad appeal by being vague in books then going for the social justice points by being explicit on social media is just so UGH

@revelari5250

7 күн бұрын

the liberals won’t like this comment

@joylynn0620

7 күн бұрын

The “tan” and “golden” skin tone kills me. You could have knocked me over with a feather when SJM confirmed that her FMC rom the Crescent City series was a POC? Huh?

@revelari5250

7 күн бұрын

@@joylynn0620 but you forget it’s to protect the future of femininity within the poc community. she had to be the hero and do it last minute!!

@nitzeart

7 күн бұрын

I know. It's like did they learn nothing from jkr redconning her characters after the fact to make them nore diverse but never actually making the effort to write it in??

@ivylilybasket

7 күн бұрын

It just feels like the "Latino lover" stereotype where Latino or Mediterranean men are exoticized and oversexualized. With "olive" skin or some other colour where you can make them white-passing or mixed race or Latino however the current trend go. It usually happens to male characters, while female characters are more commonly blonde / readhead with alabaster complexion... Colorism is well and alive, unfortunately. Irl pale skin is associated still with being "pure & noble" and darker skin with being "wild & passionate". This is why Black and Latina women are often stereotyped as "passionate, promiscuous, easy". Making fmc pale & virginal and mmc tan and experienced / rakish reinforces that colorism association with light skin = virgin, darker skin = promiscuous.

Interview with the vampire is an example of great romance! There is no Fay (poor Louis), colloquial language (except French), moronically snarky main characters (Lestat is goofy, but also manipulative), enemies to lovers (it feels like everyone is each other's enemies); there is no sex ( in the books, but tv series is spicier), love is not main plot (loneliness is), i don't remember if in the books there was anything about height, i think it wasn't important; there isn't an omegaverse dynamic; the aren't massive men (Armand is 17 years old (+/- 500) and teenager in look, Louis is average, except Lestat - he is handsome, but his personality is more alluring); one true pairing still refers to each other "My love. Mon chéri'. Book was released in 1976 and it was phenomenon - > overall it is complicated relationship, but in the end... you have to see. Especially tv series. I read this book 15 years ago and I can truly say that this is fictional romance where everything fits incredibly well. Also check Good Omens, book and tv series and Witcher books only, please don't hurt your eyes with netflix abomination.

@jonweman6128

2 күн бұрын

All of this is true, but why would you call it a romance then? The first 2 books are closer to existential horror than anything else, after that they seem to lose track a bit and I don't quite know what to call them, supernatural something, I only read up to book 4 I think.

I'm glad you bought up the Sarah J Maas thing, actually. (I read the "Throne of Glass" series on a recommendation...) Honestly, the Fae business went beyond hot, long-lived, pointy-eared "males" and "females" for me; precisely because Maas herself didn't seem to go beyond that. Fae in her books seemed to have no discernable culture at all. Their ways of speaking were the same; their ways of scheming were the same; their cruelty seemed as on par as anybody else's in that world, if a little more bitey. Maas's world struck me as fantasy ornamentation to dress a romance. And given that just about every main- or side-character got a perfectly fitted side-piece by the end, it was pretty boring to me, too.

Try being a professional editor. 😂 I get book after book that literally has the same names of the main characters, the same settings, and of course the same template, plot point by plot point. It feels like the majority of "authors" (and I use this term very loosely anymore) don't even try to be creative at all. In many cases, the art has been eliminated from fiction writing, especially in genres like romance and mystery, but in fantasy as well. But while I can vent about the writers, it's the readers that glom onto these carbon copies that really get in my craw. Why are so many people acting like something is brilliant and groundbreaking when it's legit a stolen plot from a much better written book of the past???

@christerdehlin8866

Күн бұрын

So much has been written in all genres by now that it's getting extremely hard to come up with something entirely fresh. I think fiction as such, unless perhaps it deals directly with contemporary sociological issues and/or politics, is bound to grow increasingly stale with time. There are only so many plots and tropes to choose from. You can push at those boundaries to some degree, but if you push to the point where you break too many "rules" the stories stop making logical sense. For the fantasy genre I think perhaps world building is the only facet of a given novel where an author can approach true freedom of creativity. In the end you can only place a finite number of plots in hopefully novel settings.

@user-sl2ng2hr1k

35 минут бұрын

@@christerdehlin8866 There may be only a limited numer of plot elements, but there is a nearly infinite number of ways you can put them together, and if you want to copy, pick a story so old few have read it nowadays.

I’m a guy who’s discovered I like reading but dislike most of what is getting published or what books have been popular online and my observation is that many of these tropes are there to cater to wish fulfillment fantasies for an audience of predominantly women. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, there’s plenty of media like that for guys, it just seems like that’s what’s selling so that’s all publishers are interested in so that’s all aspiring writers want to write. I really like fantasy but I notice fantasy video games get my attention more than most books because it’s the same malaise of romantasy stuff everywhere that just has no appeal for me. I don’t mind romance in a fantasy story but the romance part is never the main draw for me, it’s usually the characters and my favorite fantasy settings are stuff like Berserk, Dragon Age, Baldur’s Gate, Final Fantasy (several of them but especially 12), Blasphemous, Fear and Hunger. I like fantasy stories about misfits coming together to beat impossible odds or hopelessly bleak worlds (not grimdark, can’t stand excessive violence) with sparks of beauty and themes of being able to find purpose and belonging in a cruel world. Maybe I’m just not looking in the right places but I’ve had a very hard time finding fantasy books that scratch this itch. Idc about Faye or magic schools or dragons or vampires etc and I notice a lot of fantasy books have paper thin worlds that revolve around one thing the author is interested in (Fourth Wing and Dragons for example) when I would even prefer a really stock, tropey, Tolkienish DnD flavor generic fantasy world with really sincere characters and a fun adventure rather than what’s presented in books like Lightlark and ACOTAR. I understand I’m not the target audience for those books but I struggle to find alternatives I am the audience for without going to other media like video games. I think fantasy has so much potential for stellar characters who have realistic struggles, but since romance has become the default for fantasy books, it seems like it’s mostly just a backdrop to add flavor to indulgent smut. I don’t even need a super intricate world I just want characters to root for and a noble quest or understandable goals. I feel like there’s a serious drought of fantasy novels that are more about the journey than seeing two characters hook up.

@singingsanja167

2 күн бұрын

You might try Gareth Hanrahan's Black Iron Legacy (a little dark and hopeless at times, but epic, and great characters) and The Founders Trilogy by Robert Jackson Bennett, which has a little more comic relief in between, also great characters, and an epic story as well. Very different from the cut-out romantasy stuff. ;-)

@dianeismyname250

Күн бұрын

I second the recommendation of Robert Jackson Bennet. Also: Joe Abercrombie, Marina Dyachenko, Brandon Sanderson, Kira Jane Buxton, and NK Jemisin

So much of this has parallels with the music industry.

Unrelated but I LOVE your grays! It looks like glitter or tinsel in your hair. Gorgeous 🥰♥️

Fantasy books that annoy me the most is where a character doesn’t know that he has some inner magical powers until he does and then he’s the “key” or “chosen” or something along those lines. I also don’t like female characters that are written as “badass” but they’re really not, they’re just mean to everyone for no reason. Imagine if Aragorn was an a hole to everyone, would that make him badass? But for some reason, many writers think their female character can’t be strong if she’s nice. Or she can’t be strong if she doesn’t kick some man’s butt twice her size. Like they HAVE to establish that. To me it’s extremely immature writing and I’m honestly sick of it. I just want a good story.

@seductiveraven4895

7 күн бұрын

This is the fantasy genre, anythings possible. Physical size does not matter when their is magic involved especially since a lot of these female characters have magic powers like super strength. It's ok for a girl in fantasy books to beat a man in a fight you're just butthurt and misogynistic with frail masculinity who underestimate women and think they are inferior. All women are different, and not going to fit your narrow view of them. Women are not here to pander to you're feelings. You're feelings are not more important than women's lives.

@nickoru1

7 күн бұрын

@@seductiveraven4895 oh wow, there we go, a butt hurt comment. You completely missed my point and you went straight to attacking.

@rachellenelson126

7 күн бұрын

I love discovery of hidden powers! But not when the character ends up being the most powerful/smartest/prophecied, etc. just out of nowhere. The chosen one trope can be done well, but it has been done a lot. I have fun with it my novel, Sky of Seven Colors, where the race of giants insist their prophecy is about the main character, but she quickly realizes any human would have worked. She’s just the first one they stumble across and kidnap. In the giants’ world, her humanity is sort of a power because color is treasure to them, but she is completely ordinary.

@benco804

7 күн бұрын

​@seductiveraven4895 that was super mean for no reason. Its really ironic how strong you think you are because your mean. Didnt we just talk about this!

@claireishere2556

7 күн бұрын

Um eww why is there a misogynist here, looks like we got butt hurt men in the comments who hate women in fantasy.

It’s giving “A [place] of [noun] and [other noun/verb]” 😂

I like it when I run across authors who understand the tropes and deliberately subvert them - Lev Grossman's "Magicians" trilogy in which the magical kingdom is an oppressive feudal mess and the magic users are bored and petty is a favourite.

@singingsanja167

2 күн бұрын

Loved these a lot!!! ^_^

I agree with the modern language being a problem, and I think it’s because it messes with the immersion. We expect that, given that the characters are in an entirely separate world with different historical and cultural influences, the characters will not be speaking and thinking like a modern Earth-human, so it pulls us out of the moment.

Currently writing a sci-fi ya romantasy and you don’t understand the SIGH OF RELIEF I breathed when none of these were applicable to my WIP!

Man, for about 90 percent of this, I was like, yes, girl talk that talk. How can you say Sarah J Maas is kinda played out without directly calling her out. The other 10 is directly calling her out😂.

So many books feel the same because that's what the readers want. Readers only want to read what they've already read... just with some tweaks. As an indie author, I learned that the hard way.

@Sue-pn7mq

Күн бұрын

The star system doesn’t help with this. Authors can be judged harshly for doing something unexpected by readers who want books that cater to their wishes.

I LOL-ed when you mentioned amnesia trope, 'Oh I used to love you so now I have my memories back so I guess I'm in love with you again.' I just read one book that has this trope and I'm still digesting the whole thing, wondering how I really feel about the book. Lol.

Romantasy tropes are often well-tread because they are nifty to ideas to play with, but they can lead to predictable routes and make them dull or, worse, irritating to read. Personally, I will devour anything that is similar to the Saint of Steel series, but I have not found much that hits the same: MCs in their 30s/40s, intelligent, with their own lives and motivations, in a well-built fantasy world with intriguing conflicts.

@kattodoggo3868

5 күн бұрын

i am checking this out right away because as 30yo i feel weird reading about 20 yo

That stuff you mentioned about the cute romance really intrigued me. I'm gonna need a name for that Book you were reading because I need good examples of natural romance.

To me, if you read one S.J.M. you've read all of her books, and I don't like her books. Still salty for the Assassin fantasy let down during my Assassin's Creed phase.

@IVNesse

4 күн бұрын

You should read Assassin's Apprentice by Robin Hobb :D

@zoebrugg7594

4 күн бұрын

@@IVNesse it’s on my tbr, and shopping list on thrift books.

A lot of people are like this now. No thought is original. The more plugged into media genres, identities, and cultures the more the experience in life is controlled. What your eye sees is the experience. In times when people were independently experiencing the world while consuming less all encompassing mass media, the opportunity for individual experience could flourish. People could still pick up on what they read in the newspapers or heard in Church, but most of their lives were spent living and interacting directly with the world and having unique experiences. The best artists and writers were fiercely individualistic and questioned everything. They weren't running off a gender studies text book or looking at memes.

@zanleuxs

5 күн бұрын

I'm sure there are still plenty of individualistic authors out there, they just don't get the same attention

Yesss, the snarky character one especially. I am tired … so tired of dumb snarky bs.

I am running into this with my current read - What Lies Beyond the Veil - the LF Estrella was raised as an oppressed peasant in a very strict society and says things like "Dont be a dick", and "Im not going to spread my legs for any man" ... just things that she should not be saying/are overly vulgar for what we know about her character. Also, these are things her fated mate would not be charmed to hear her say because he comes from a very formal court. The way she emasculates him and he just "chuckles" drives me crazy. You cannot have a strong alpha character who is also a dope and allows his mate to snark him all day long with an amused expression. Estrella has zero skills, has had her life saved by him multiple times and still is such an "oppressed, I don't need a man, girl boss". It's something that lets me know the author has leaked a bit too much of her modern day thinking into the story and it just doesn't flow right. . . Right now Estrella is upset because Callum is insisting they share the same sleeping quarters (and not be separated) while they figure out there new circumstances (surrounded by strangers and stuck in a dark, creepy cave system) (she is also supposed to be horribly afraid of cave monsters, but put her around a group of strangers in a cave and I guess she is fine?) ... However, IMO - Estrella shouldn't want to be separated from Callum. He is safe, strong and based on the time period and dangers around her, SHE NEEDS HIM. Again, she has no skills lol other than picking berries. She isn't even very grateful or appreciative, always got an attitude. Give these fated males a woman worthy of them! BUT it does show you that it's easy to write a male character we all swoon over but very hard for female writers to tap into writing worthy women.

….because all these books are fantasy mashups of high school teen love triangles written for the exact same audience without care for actual literary merit?

I’m soooo curious what your cute romance in the fantasy book at 10:05 is cuz I LOVE that in a book and I NEED that book now!!! (Race the Sands?!)

@imatiredstudent2081

7 күн бұрын

Same here!

@milliemaloney8585

7 күн бұрын

idk if this is correct but my immediate thought was that it was about Brienne and Jaime in A Song of Ice and Fire.

@aintnoisepollution99

6 күн бұрын

Yes please if anyone figures it out from the “future video” please comment here!

@Hesperus84

6 күн бұрын

SAME lol I just commented wondering which book it is and how I'll figure out when it is mentioned 😭

@Srbthmlnsmth

6 күн бұрын

@@Hesperus84 sooo my prediction is likely Race the Sands a book she recently mentioned as having liked. haven’t read it mself but goodreads says there’s a teeeny bit of romance and maybe she’ll review it soon cuz she said it’s underrated and deserves more love!! That or Spin of Fate which she mentioned about reading a few times on this channel,and also fits the description. Let’s see 👀👀👀I’ll be sure to come back and comment for y’all

Yup, that's why I switched over to high fantasy and contemporary romance books now. I find that "romantasy" books have become formulaic. As if authors want to chase the fame SJM books amassed, by sticking to those same tropes/storylines.

I feel like romantasy 9 times out of 10 is just monster-fucking wearing rose coloured glasses😭

@mittag983

3 күн бұрын

It's cowardly monster-fucking because all the monster men look human

A lot of authors are held to strict parameters. Publishers have to sell what they know will sell. Indie authors (myself included) are not held to these standards, but those can sometimes be a hit or miss (hopefully a hit). But I think a lot of movies have this problem also. Even when I was in highschool (2010), I was noticing all YA was the same. I asked one of the associates at Barnes and Noble if they had any recommendations that weren't all the same, but he said, "try a different genre." That's when I started branching out, and I think that's important to do. 😊

This was great; you had me laughing at loud at one point 😂

I agree with you so much!! I seriously wonder what book you are mentioning around 9:55, can't wait till the video comes out! I'm def subscribing!!!

People write derivatives of derivatives because they want to consume more of what they write. It leads to self-indulgent writing.

13:17 omg THANK YOU. The “male, female” things really irks me. It’s almost as irksome as the modern language in fantastical worlds issue imo. I will say, The Shepard King Duology (One Dark Window, Two Twisted Crowns) by Rachel Gillig did romantasy very well and, for the most part, the characters were very well motivated by their circumstances and internal guidance systems which made it so easy to relate to them. The world building was also there which you can’t say for lots of books of the same ilk (basically anything SJM writes 🙄). Also, the romance was precious and done in a balanced way as opposed to taking over the whole story. Haven’t found good romantasy since 😓

You're just out here voicing all of my thoughts 🤣 (and I'm only on point 3). Since I'm working on a novel of my own atm, I've been doing a lot of "critique partner" reading of other people's works, and let me tell you, 90% of them were fae romantasies and 75% of those had modern language in them and the authors could not understand why it irked me so bad 😭 I could never explain it well to them, but you've nailed it exactly. Next time it happens, I'm saying that!

I have to admit that even the themes are discussed superficially , even common themes like love is confused with lust , commenting on poverty or dangers of anything is only a passage or a line and that's it , also the apparent pop feminism that is over represented in these books makes my brain suffer , characterization effort is for only one character and the rest are cardboard carbon copy of a stereotype , we need to make deep conversation and commentaries the norm at even the ''only for entertainment books'' , even if i am tired from a long day at work or university , i would love to end the book with an idea that enriches my mind and conversations with my friends

There are some books where I've confused story lines before but I don't mind it so much as there are still a decent amount of books that stand out enough for me.

Agreed with every single point. Enjoyed this video very much!

Great video! I believe it happens a lot because we are all so used to the algorithm choosing things for us that are similar to what we already like. I believe that the books that are published follow this same idea and are advertised like that, which keeps us on this loop of consuming similar things all the time to the point that they all look the same

Thanks for this video. I have a completed draft of my first fantasy novel, and I was worried I'd be a multiple-times offender. But you made me feel better. I think I'm in the minority in not minding casual language. Maybe it was Legends and Lattes that made me fond of fantasy characters who say "Okay" and use contractions.

Fantastic video. I think this quite articulated my feelings on the situation. I love a romance in my stories, so on paper fantasy romance should really work for me, but I feel that its currently reading very samey, that Ive kinda been put off. That being said the ones I have loved have been favs of the year such as Foz Meadows Tithenai Duology.

Hello Elliot. The only problem with watching other KZreadrs channels is that it only increases the tbr. So many books and so little time! Happy reading to you.

A lot of this is on the publishers really. POC characters: To some extent context matters. In urban fantasy set in a modern real world city, a characters race and ethnicity means a lot about how they interact with the world. In a fantasy setting with no relation to the real world, that context falls away. You can't be Mexican or African or Scandinavian in a world where these places don't exist. I'm going to use From Blood and Ash as an example here because it is has a good contrast. Kieran is black, he is described as dark skinned with tightly curled dark hair cropped close to the skull. Delano is white, pale skin ice blonde. But they're both wolven (naturally born werewolves) and that has more bearing on their place in the world then their skin color.

It's because they sell. Some readers just want ACOTAR in a different font.

@amouramarie

11 сағат бұрын

Haha, I'm going to have to remember "in a different font." That's perfect.

I feel like you tapped into my thoughts exactly.

My I suggest Mr. Fix It and Miss Sue? It is the first of a short story series that is very unique.❤❤❤

Readers have been commodified. Publishers are chasing revenue instead of investing in developing and promoting talented writers.

It’s been that way since the 90s at least perhaps even earlier. I purposely seek out unique stories instead of reading every book out there.

How many times must I read about a character sheathing their sword after a battle _without cleaning it!?_ 😅

Thank you for giving voice to things a lot of us have been noticing. 👍😄

Female rage in Harpy's Flight by Megan Lindholm (another pen name for Robin Hobb) Ki has a valid reason for her rage and her conflict between destroying a custom and a way of life and getting revenge feels justified.

i think the best and most realistic enemies to lovers I've read has got to be the daughter of smoke and bone trilogy

@singingsanja167

2 күн бұрын

Oooh, that was a good one!... ^_^

Always enjoy when you do "the voice".

So many fae, so little time 😂😂

I think that writers aren’t reading like they used to. Reading classics and studying characters can help diversify the genre .

I'm so glad to hear I'm not the only one! - though the title of this video is a but misguiding, as I thought you were going to explain a little _why_ we're seeing so much of these tropes in fantasy literature lately.. I wonder if it is the marketing of such books that makes them seem like they are everywhere, or really a matter of not having enough experience with the fantasy genre on the writer's part.

I agree with all you're saying. I'm midway through my first 'romantasy, "when tje moon hatched" and the biggest TURN OFF is our heroine. And her overly used and abused 'sh*t' and 'f*ck' on practically on every page. And this book is long. Am I this old and old fashioned to find it dull and unoriginal??

@meagannavarre7228

4 күн бұрын

I’m almost through this book right now and it’s just so bad and disappointing. I’m only trying to finish it because I bought the book. I loved the cover and I was ok with a romance book for a little spice, but this is just terrible writing and plot. I feel like she was alluding to this book the whole video cus it checks all these marks.

@AeroPortJoga

4 күн бұрын

@@meagannavarre7228 totally! I also bought the book after hearing "rave reviews' and how "beaitifully"(!?!?!) its written (😖). The cover gave me a feeling of a more dreamy type of book but yeah, like you say, Elliot seems to point exactly to this book. What a waste of paper, I'm sorry to say.

@cupofkeyshae

3 күн бұрын

The main character in that book was unbearable.

The reason popular booktube books sound the same is because they are all the same

@annakobuk3618

5 күн бұрын

Yes, they are all the same "fanfic style" of books. Going outside of this subgenre is the best the readers and reviewers can do.

I love this video! I’m writing my first book and accidentally writing something that’s already been written is my greatest fear lol

@thekleptodetective

7 күн бұрын

Technically, no idea is 100% original. I know I used to fear writing tropes or accidentally similar names but I’ve learned to embrace the idea that it’s the execution, not the broad strokes of tropes, that make the story you’re writing stand out.

I am very cautious about anything described as enemies to lovers. Like when you say enemies, do you mean they’re on opposing sides? Or are they just bickering rivals? Or is one oppressing/abusing the other? Cuz if it’s the third, I don’t want it. Abusive love interests and fated mates are the bane of my existence thanks to SJM. There’s all this negative, toxic tension but it’s okay cuz some other force says they’re destined to be together? That’s not a compelling romance to me. That’s like watching someone explain why they don’t leave their abusive partner.

So, I want a writing career, and a major influence is the gatekeepers (namely the book agents.) When I go to look at the agent wishlists for the types of books they want to represent its heavily skewed in various ways where it almost becomes a real life trope in itself... I think there is an argument to be made that the "industry" is kind of selfish that way. It wants to read what it wants to read, and therefore, publish what it wants to publish.

I would love more thoughtfulness when it comes to building out character personalities. So much leans on looks right now that it’s getting boring. I remember reading the description of Darius in Untethered Sky being excellent and I don’t remember if height and looks were mentioned at all. It was more of a great essence and personality description. I understood who he was right away. I want more of that.

For the same reason a lot of music is samey now and a lot of movies are from franchisee. Fewer large companies are in charge of funding creative endeavours and they have such massive overheads they can only bring themselves to put money into safe bets. Add to that decisions are being made by fewer people so biases are more concentrated. Publishing has not escaped this.

Are there any romance fantasy books that you liked? My wife is "mentioned" early in your video as she is one of those that just consumes these books. Then she recommends some to me, but so far I struggled with SJM (read a couple of books from each of her 3 series) and Bardugo. Very flat characters, suspension of disbelief working overtime for some of the plot points. You mentioned the height gap, but the age gaps of hundreds of years are ridiculous as well. I could go on, but you covered a lot in your video.

I'm currently writing a book that is very much aligned with your on-point criticism, so I feel very validated. 😁

It's funny booktubers are only now realising what general people knew for years now. This has been a problem since 2015, when peruse project and all the other KZreadrs started to punch these fantasy / romance/ love triangle type of Hodge podge stories on us. These type of books pulled down all the other books to their level of low quality writing. My theory is, it's the Harry potter hangover of peruse project and contemporary readers. They grew up reading this one low quality book, and then started craving the same type of low quality fantasy, and the publishers responded and started pushing scam authors like sjm, Coleen hoover. And now everything is so bad, it's a miracle if someone finds a decent quality book among these clone type books

I just want characters to be competent adults. Why is that such a high bar?

@xertz2502

Күн бұрын

then don't read books written by Women