As an ex-fencer, I fenced all three weapons and frankly, I think foil foster better habit and mindset when changing to HEMA. No matter what, fencing and HEMA are both still a hell lot of fun

@SwordAndWaistcoat

2 жыл бұрын

What HEMA are you doing? For most 19th century weapons you're are meant to do foil first.

@15thdoctor40

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah but right-of-way is a pain the ass. I used to be a foilist but moved onto epee as it was simpler than foil. And WAY simpler sabre.

@golength

2 жыл бұрын

HEMA doesn't have a professional player and the average level is low, right? I'm purely curious.

@Espectador666

2 жыл бұрын

@@golength what?

@irfannurhadisatria2540

2 жыл бұрын

@@golength eh, top 100 worldwide HEMA fencers are very competitive nowadays. Check out "high level longsword sparring" by Martin Fabian and a few finals in 2018-2020 tournaments.

Saber favors the attacker, epee favors the defender, and foil is neutral. That's why saber is fast, epee is slower, and foil is somewhere in between.

@calsportsclub

2 жыл бұрын

are you still alive

@patricksviola

2 жыл бұрын

I would say yes to the sabre. Epee can favor the defender but I wouldn't say it's a hard truth as I know many people who are willing to run you down in epee. I would say foil favors 2nd intention since the weapon is so small and easy to manipulate compared to the others and given the target area it is unlikely that a single attack will land without some form of deception. But that's just my experience and opinion.

@aayanpatel

2 жыл бұрын

Epee is most definitely not defender sided. I played as a primarily defensive player for 5 years and rarely won in tournaments. I then switched to a more aggressive style while still keeping my defense sharp and it works much better.

@ericdew2021

2 жыл бұрын

@@aayanpatel Your personal anecdote does not belie the fact that the passivity rule applies almost always to epee (and sometimes to foil) but rarely to saber. Epee MOST DEFINITELY favors the defender. Don't be pedantic and stupid here.

@aayanpatel

2 жыл бұрын

@@ericdew2021 I’m not being stupid it’s just common sense that no blade can truly favor the defender for an entire bout. If the attack is being more active and taking imitative they are going to see how the defender reacts and naturally adjust. Also watching at tournaments, clinics, and at national levels majority of the time the more active person wins. I’m not saying running in all the time is better than defending because that’s just plain dumb. But attacker usually has the advantage.

1:11 - *"Fencers aren't training to hurt people"* Fencer: * proceeds to hurt a person *

@kamikaze5528

2 жыл бұрын

He did that with no training and accidentally. Clearly he's a natural.

@d3l1c10uspancak3s

2 жыл бұрын

Not true, when my dad was 17 his lung got punctured by his opponent's fencing weapon during a bout

@teeesen

2 жыл бұрын

@@d3l1c10uspancak3s Right, but I expect his opponent didn’t train to hurt him, at least not in that way. That said, I did know a sabre fencer who certainly did train to hurt people; the philosophy was that if your counter-attack left a big welt your opponent might think twice about attacking again; it was a big difference from the way I was taught, but this guy went to the olympics and I did not. This was before electric sabre added another layer to take the sting out. Also before 800N jackets.

@d3l1c10uspancak3s

2 жыл бұрын

@@teeesen Isn't there a rule about purposely trying to hurt your opponent? You could get black carded if you're clearly trying to physically harm your opponent. For my Dad though, it was an accident. This was also epeé fencing.

@teeesen

2 жыл бұрын

@@d3l1c10uspancak3s There are used to be rule about deliberately hurting me or trying to hurt your opponent. But I think the wording was changed, since intent is difficult to perceive. (Well, I assume that was the intent behind the change. But as I said, intent is hard to perceive.)

"Epee is slower because epeeists have more patience" - Not really an explanation. The question should be: Why are they more patient? Here are some major differences to the other weapons: 1. The whole body is a valid target. This changes the game totally. 2. Double hits are possible. Makes you reconsider your moves, especially if you are behind. "Doubling to the victory" is happening quite often. 3. And most important: There is no priority rule in epee. This changes the strategy totally.

@SlicerSabre

2 жыл бұрын

The point was that if épée fencers wanted épée to be faster they would change the rules to make it so.

@denis.i.saveliev

2 жыл бұрын

And in addition: 4. The foil and the sabre has each maximum weight of 500 grams, while the épée of 775 grams. Clearly, the lesser weight the more speed. Of course, it is possible to say again "if épée fencers wanted épée to be faster they would change the weight", but this explanation seems too universal.))

@jacobjamersony

2 жыл бұрын

@@SlicerSabre if epee fencer want priority brulé they would have switched to foil. In fact because epee fencers wants the bout to be faster, the inactivity rule was introduced.

@ohitsrusher842

2 жыл бұрын

@@SlicerSabre That applies to literally every sport ever made and explains nothing

@blackog7820

2 жыл бұрын

The question was “Why do people want epee to be slow?”. The “How it turns out to be a more slow paced variation?” is still interesting, but that wasn't the point of this video.

Fencing itself is very unlike real sword combat, but it still teaches you the fundamentals - keeping an appropriate distance and energy conservation. These two skills are essential and and transferrable to any combat system, be it another sword-fighting style like Kendo, or a martial art like boxing or Wushu.

@flammasecutor

2 жыл бұрын

I am a professional fencing coach (since 1982). I am sure you have no idea of what olympic fencing is, and yet you are speculating about it. Kendo which you referred to, is a joke. I have group of Kendo guyus once came to my school, and that was pathetic. Take a look and Kendo vs Fencing, you'll see it yourself. Now, you mentioned fundamentals. Ha-ha. Sense of time, decision making, different methods of decision making, strategy, taktics.. . Fencing is one the most sophisticated sports, and HEMA is an amateur activity. Capice?

@loafoffloof3420

Жыл бұрын

@@flammasecutor just asking, what is the Kendoka's demographic and their Kendo grading if you can remember? Here is a Kendoka on the Korean national team versus a Korean epee fencing coach: kzread.info/dash/bejne/eXWE2a-rdKqnlqg.html

@AGUXTIN97

Жыл бұрын

@@flammasecutor i only understood: "haha funny lunge go BrBr..."

@flammasecutor

Жыл бұрын

@@AGUXTIN97 Good for you. You don't need to understand anything else.

@flammasecutor

Жыл бұрын

@@loafoffloof3420 So? It shows an absolute domination of fencers. Besides, they put epee vs Kendo, which way much less efficient and less visible to non Profesional like you and alike. If they will put a Saber against Kendo, you will have no questions at all. There is clip on YT that shows Sabre vs Kendo. Kendo looks like a joke there.

The difference, also, comes from the fact that things evolve over time- even if the sport of fencing shared all the same rules and equipment with the way it was done in the past, it would still have changed- watch footage of any other sport from 50, 60, 70 years ago vs the same sport today. Techniques evolve, things get built on, what worked yesteryear no longer applies. It's part of how sports work.

@thechallenger752

2 жыл бұрын

Unless it's boxing

@thegardner80

2 жыл бұрын

@Yuri Carajilescov It happens with all martial arts, and always has. The problem comes down to, "How do you practice fighting without getting so injured you can't fight?" Occasionally someone will say, "This is unrealistic" and come up with a new martial art. It will be very effective, but people will get hurt, so as the techniques that hurt people get identified, they will be eliminated. Over time, people optimize to the rules and self-defense applicability gets lost. It happened to Kung-Fu, TaekwonDo, Karate, Judo, and it's happening now to Brazilian Jujitsu. It's not a new thing either, it happened to Kung-Fu hundreds of years ago!

@18ps3anos

2 жыл бұрын

@@thegardner80 The "safety argument" is kinda BS tbh... The problem with sport fencing is mostly the philosophy of it. How people use the weapon flexibility as whips to strike points around guards. The sport's evolution is built on top of exploitations to previous solutions. As a comparison, just watch any competitive hema rapier matches. It's not like the atheletes get out hurt all the time, and yet it's a completely different dynamic, even though people tend to overlook their safety in favour of going for first hit points. HEMA organizations struggle with that aspect of it, because the "sport mentality" is detrimental to the point of a martial art. And yet, even so, it produces far more realistic results than modern sport epee, foil or sabre.

@flammasecutor

2 жыл бұрын

@Yuri Carajilescov That's because you have no idea of fencing, I guess.

@jarvy251

Жыл бұрын

​@@thegardner80 " The problem comes down to, "How do you practice fighting without getting so injured you can't fight?" It's not that simple. I compare it to something like 3-gun shooting competitions. These were intended to simulate scenarios for law-enforcement, but as time went on, it became "gamified." Equipment and attitudes that are specialized towards "winning the competition" are allowed because they fall within the rules, but give such an edge you MUST adopt them to be competitive. You can draw from a competition holster extremely quickly, even though it does nothing to protect the handgun from the elements or from an assailant who may try to seize it off your body. Shotgun speed-loaders are long, awkward and fragile and so utterly unsuited to duty use, but give you such a time advantage if the stage requires a reload that you're simply going to lose without one. And in a real shootout you certainly aren't going to be able to count your opponents and decide ahead of time where to position, move or reload! Not to say these competitions are useless, but you must be aware of where the practical skills end and where the "game" begins. I can only imagine olympic sport fencing is much the same, with their pistol-gripped epees and the like.

As HEMA practicioner I would love to see more cross training with fencing guys. I had really lot of fun visiting fencing club and trying epee weapons ar so light no constraints with clothes you can be soooo fast what I didn't liked wasn't noodle blades but field not being able to go sideways any meaningful way was really constraining for me longsword waving monkey.

@jaroslavb.korinek7285

2 жыл бұрын

We have an ex-fencer in our HEMA club, joined recently. Really quick on his feet but man, he's SO bad with parries! Literally everything comes through...

@atomic_wait

2 жыл бұрын

Olympic fencing is a great skillbase for going into HEMA, a lot of high level HEMA tournament fighters have Olympic fencing backgrounds.

@thomastucker7317

2 жыл бұрын

I was looking forward to starting foil this year to supplement my HEMA stuff but none of the clubs near me fit my schedule :C

@albertbresca8904

2 жыл бұрын

@@jaroslavb.korinek7285 strange...i found the total opposite when i joined a HEMA club.. how long had that guy fenced for? i had fenced for over 10 years and found i cold parry easily but using the non sword hand REALLY hard lol... I just couldn't use it or bring it forward

@flammasecutor

2 жыл бұрын

@@atomic_wait And guess why it is not vice versa. You will feel lost applying your HEMA stuff to fencing. Posing, mangling around etc.

My understanding is that fencing as a sport isn't based on "swordfighting" so much as dueling which was historically almost never to the death (as it is usually presented in fiction) but far more frequently to "first blood". Looking at it this way, it seems that modern fencing is much more realistic than many other combat sports such as Olympic taekwondo & judo which are based on unarmed fighting but modified to fit a point system. The sport of fencing fits the "dueling" mold better than Olympic taekwondo & judo fit the "fighting" mold. *edit* Even in a "first blood" duel, the risk of death still existed. & the frequency of deaths varied throughout history. But overall, in the style of duel which fencing is based on, death was rare because death was not the goal.

@SirJesusFreak

2 жыл бұрын

Nope. Historically duels killed a lot of people. A lot of the old Fencing masters commented that young men were dying because everyone knew how to attack but no one knew how to defend. It was very common got a winner of a duel to die later in the day from a wound suffered in the duel. Casualties from dueling were such a problem that it was regularly outlawed.

@merciful_nacho9401

2 жыл бұрын

Other than the not killing part, I 100% agree

@morgulusthetrollslayer6672

2 жыл бұрын

First blood argument still doesn't cover double hits problem. Even if you scratched your opponents (for example) cheek first, but half second later his sword (that was already in movement before your hit) pierces your heart. Winner in situation above is obvious, but not based on Olympics rules. Also, about fighting to death: Latest duels actually was not to death duels. But early duels were way to resolve the dispute, and I don't think you want only to scratch someone who insulted your wife, or you will be stopped by just a scratch. So, talking about fencing - not only a fact of hit must be scored, but also a type of hit. Which is actually presented in HEMA, btw

@teeesen

2 жыл бұрын

Epee is based on duelling to first blood. Foil is older and is based on training to kill. This is why foil is traditionally all about hitting without being hit.

@georgeniederriter8247

2 жыл бұрын

I guess I can clarify a bit. When a duel was being organized, the criteria for winning could be set as "to the death" but was much more frequently "to first blood". But even if a duel was "to first blood", death was still a very real possibility. Two people with such tremendous loathing for one another that each was willing to risk his own life for an opportunity to do grave bodily harm to the other... I expect it was common for both to hope to accomplish "first blood" by stabbing through the other's lung or something similarly gruesome. I wasn't trying to suggest that duels were friendly get-togethers in which two gentlemen would engage in good-natured competition to see who could gently scratch the other first. lol The point I was trying to make in the earlier comment was that creating a point-based sport based on dueling stays truer to the original than most point-based combat sports are to their respective originals.

"Fencers aren't training to hurt people" *proceeds to poke an eye* Perfect association of words and pictures 😄

@albertbresca8904

2 жыл бұрын

not hurt... kill i guess... as the foil torso hits and it usually centres around the vital areas.. sabre only above the waist as if they were on a horse (you want to kill the rider an take his horse... horse are worth money) epee.. well like duelling to first blood.... but in a fencing bout i don't think that - usually it is to make the hit (and bouts are usually first to 5 hits... so not at all like killing a person.. like a sport..)

Great video. I do HEMA and I often have friends asking why I return so bruised if I went to a fencing tournaments, "one of those little swords did THAT!?" While I know my saberist friends have some pretty gnarly bruises, I often have to explain that I fight with longswords and certainly there are points in the conversation where they must imagine me LARPing as a part of it. I'm going to save this video to help with the explanation, thank you.

@matthewclaridge8063

Жыл бұрын

I come from a fencing family and have fenced for most my life. I'm a little bit old now (plus fatter and slower 🤫😂) but in my teenage years i was quite a good left handed sabreur (if i don't say so myself). At my peak i was ranked 4th in NSW (2007 NSW Australia). I know I'm probably going to sound like a bit of a d#$k but....Yes fencing is a sport but I guarantee, if I was to fight using live steel (an infantryman's saber for example [ i actually own a replica officer's Saber from the Napoleonic era] ) you would need a HEMA practitioner with some SERIOUS skills to even come close to touching me. I also think people under estimating the speed/skill needed to be able to handle just ONE simple parry and riposte (with a cut to the head for example) from a fencer. I feel confident that even at 37, I could handle nearly all comers in a "real" sword fight.

@daxasd3270

Жыл бұрын

@@matthewclaridge8063 ... you do sound like a dick, but for the wrong reason. A skilled HEMA-ist could probably wipe the floor with you in olympic sabre, for the easy reason that there are enough people who do both and people who have to brag on the internet to feel better usually trying to cope with their decline.

@sagesemadeni4024

7 ай бұрын

I took a 2lb Messer to the tricep last week in practice (In hindsight, improper ppe and poor weapon choice). Bruise is still black. I like to tell people that "HEMA is to fencing, as MMA is to boxing/wrestling.". It can get pretty hard-core! 😅

@Master...deBater

5 ай бұрын

@@matthewclaridge8063 I totally agree with you that sport fencing builds certain skills that are applicable to the actual duel. However...the two endeavors are so radically different today that they're hardly comparable. I think that most classical smallsword fencers that trained as many hours at their craft as an Olympic foilist does at his would quickly kill the Olympian in a real duel! The difference is obviously in their respective defensive skills. Everything that makes a great Olympic foilist...would also make for a dead Olympic foilist in a duel! Under the stress of actual combat we all revert to our training. And the modern training for Olympic fencing stresses offense at the expense of defense. Nearly every single point won in a modern match would end in the deaths of both swordsmen in an actual duel. Modern fencers simply know no other way to fight. I am not a serious fencer...but I do have experience in combat sports. I once trained under a NYC Golden Gloves boxing champion. At that time he was middle aged and fat...and half crippled up from a serious car accident. But that man was still nearly impossible to hit! He would stand in front of you, bobbing and weaving slipping everything you'd throw at him. He could tell what you were going to do just by the positioning of your feet and body. He always stressed that boxing was a sport of hitting while NOT getting hit! Which is precisely the difference between classical fencing for the duel and modern sport fencing!

@Theknightman-wg1dz

Ай бұрын

@@sagesemadeni4024my experience with a messer is pick it up and putting it right back down because of the heft, I can only imagine how bad that must suck to be hit there with one

The last video is so important for Hema. It is showing one of the last duels in the world. It was in France in the 60s (I think) two members of the parliament of the 5 French republic have blame each other for insulting the other. So they fought with the sword. Duelling was forbidden in this time, the duel endet with a cut in the hand of one (fight for the first blood).

I took a year of foil and around a half a year of epee back around 2000 at a community center. It was taught by some Russian guy whose teenage kids were training for the Olympics. He thought the best way to train them was to feed them an endless supply of weaklings. Most people only lasted for a couple sessions, tops. Of course, that didn’t matter, since there was a waiting list a mile long to get in. The only reason I was able to get in was because everyone was allowed a plus one, and a friend from Writer’s Group had been a member for years. I still had to pay $20 for the class, basically twice as much as having paid for a membership. Which I was waaaay down on that waiting list. 1. The blades 20 years ago didn’t look *that* bendy. 2. Those kids specialized in epee, and made it really not fun. 3. Saber drills are both creepy and boring in equal portions. 4. Crowdfighting was actually a fun way to end each session. Split the class in two, line up on either side of the room, and then commence to swording until someone called a touch. Break apart, argue a bit, and the loser goes to the sidelines to help judge. Rinse and repeat. 5. My friend from writer’s group was in his fifties but was only one of a few students that could hold their own against the epee brats. (We had a more… colorful name for them.) 6. His secret? He studied the old forms and practiced in his living room when he had writer’s block. “There’s that, and of course, a large glass of red wine about an hour before class.” 7. Most importantly, the foils had screw-on button tips. The epee kids loved to get into arguments, to which my writer friend was oddly exempt. I asked him why they never picked on him. “I waited until their dad was in the bathroom. I told them all that I had nothing left to live for, and asked if they were ready to take the buttons off. They never harassed me again.” That night, i unscrewed the button of my foil and slew the leather recliner, learning what the step into the lunge is really for. I learned exactly why the hand must be held at such an angle, and why that angle must be held when stepping back. It’s not for touches. It’s so you don’t stress your wrist while your blade dips in an out out your enemy. I superglued my tip back in.

@matthewclaridge8063

Жыл бұрын

I hear you my friend....lol... Tell you what if you're ever in Sydney Australia I'd be happy to take you with my daughter to a fencing class if you're willing to give it another shot. I come from a fencing family and have fenced for most my life. I'm a little bit old now (plus fatter and slower 🤫😂) but in my teenage years i was quite a good left handed sabreur (if i don't say so myself). At my peak i was ranked 4th in NSW (2007 NSW Australia). I know I'm probably going to sound like a bit of a d#$k but....Yes fencing is a sport but I guarantee, if I was to fight using live steel (an infantryman's saber for example [ i actually own a replica officer's Saber from the Napoleonic era] ) you would need a someone with some SERIOUS skills to even come close to touching me. I also think people under estimate the speed/skill needed to be able to handle just ONE simple parry and riposte (with a cut to the head for example) from a fencer. They have absolutely have to no idea of the speed involved and the reflexes needed I feel confident that even at 37, I could still probably handle nearly all comers in a "real" sword. fight.

@flammasecutor

Жыл бұрын

This has nothing to do with fencing. You year of lessons hardly made more than a beginner. Your comment about boring Sabre drills tells everything about your understanding of fencing. To take a button off... You must br kidding...

@user-ev4xs1ym9y

Ай бұрын

​@@flammasecutor If you are a real trainer, it will not be difficult for you to publish a training session with your students on your KZread channel. At the same time, tell us how you trained your students and what competitions them won

@flammasecutor

Ай бұрын

@@user-ev4xs1ym9y No, I am an AI fencing coach. BTW, trainer is the one who is in charge of physical therapy (Here in US). I don't know if this is enough for you, since you know more about fencing than me, but I have two Olympics medals on my alumni, I was a US national coach for Junior and Cadet Team, and one of my students now is a saber National Coach. Next you will probably ask for my real name, correct? Why do you think I am involved in this nonsense conversation? To pretend to be a coach? Nope. I just lost my temper when I read this BS about my sport. Take care and be well.

When combat becomes competitive and regulated to avoid serious injuries as much as possible, it tends to distance itself more and more from its primitive origins with effective use as a harmful weapon. As a taekwondo black belt, I'd say that the same goes for martial arts that have become olympic or strongly competitive in the sporting context.

Epee fencers have more patience? I have another take on it. With two evenly matched epee fencers, statistically your are more likely to score on a counterattack than an attack. So as the tournament reaches the quarter finals, everyone waits on the opponent to attack first. Now I admit I don't have such statistics to back this up. But when you see team epee competition, you'll often see the reserve fencer making a note on a pad after every touche. I have my doubts they are writing down the blade actions, like "Indirect attack defeated by C6 parry riposte". No, they are keeping it simple, and someone, like the coach, is analyzing these notes and coming to the conclusion that it is better to counterattack. And if that isn't enough, there is always 2001 Team Epee Championships, Estonia vs Hungary.

@christianalbertjahns2577

3 жыл бұрын

Well, sure there will be always something like that but we all know that counterattack isn't unbeatable. Most of the time (depending on the execution), counterattack can be defeated by using second intention (counter-time, for example). Also, we all know that counterattack must also be set up. You can't just counterattack out of nowhere

@donaldbadowski290

3 жыл бұрын

@@christianalbertjahns2577 , yes, I teach countertime, especially as a way of defeating tall, lanky extended French fencers. But as for counterattacking out of nowhere? That depends on skill of course. You watch enough high level epee, you see there is nothing some fencers can't score a counterattack on.

@christianalbertjahns2577

3 жыл бұрын

@@donaldbadowski290 well yes but counterattack without setup can only be done when the attacker doesn't properly set up their attack, in other words, setup-less counterattack relies on unforced error. Relying on unforced error isn't a good strategy when you fence at the top level

@donaldbadowski290

3 жыл бұрын

@Mark Morris , of course this is not an absolute. It's statistical. Personally I'm happy to see aggressive epee fencers, and really can't stand the ones who just wait, wait, wait for an opportunity to counterattack. The worst is when you have two fencers like that facing each other.

@donaldbadowski290

2 жыл бұрын

@Mark Morris , did you read Epee 2.0? In it, Johan Harmenberg is purposefully ambiguous about the Parry vs a Take when describing blade to blade actions. He says he does so because the points of doing such actions against an attack r to initiate an attack are pretty meaningless. Blades will cross and actions will be taken.

Fencing is a sport Not a martial art Exactly. Thank you!! But I still think sport fencing has its place in the greater world of sword arts. Because it has one thing other sword art doesnt have: INTENT. No matter what weapon based martial art you practice, during sparring, you would hold back, subconciously or not. Because you really wouldnt want to hurt your sparring partner. This is sport fencing's greatest quality, it allows for the participants to go all out and really not worry about any serious injury. To have real serious intent to go and hit your opponent with your weapon. No other weapon based martial art can replicate that. They should really stop scoring for flicks though 😅

@Melcavic42

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting take, if be dishonest if i said i find value in watching this at all, however your right conditioned for competition without intent to kill is pretty standard so makes sense that this is what we ended up with. I just find watching poker more interesting than watching this lol. But i could see actually playing it would still get the spirit going. I'm basically down to chess, poker, sports betting lol my crazy days of being hurt all the time are over.

@wilagaton9627

2 жыл бұрын

@@Melcavic42 Yeah. Fencing is one of those sports where its idiotic to watch, but becomes very intensive once you practice/compete. It is not spectator-friendly. There is no build up to drama, no masterful plays. Its always about the moment to moment action.

@Ninjia202

2 жыл бұрын

the scoring for flicks is part of electric fencing, and pistol grip which are both, in my opinion, bad

@madmax8160

2 жыл бұрын

@@Ninjia202 pistol grip was born in the late nineteenth century for the duel

@sharkastic2633

2 жыл бұрын

Complaining about flicks, skill issue smh.

As a boxer into martial arts of all form I alwyas get really confused about fencing, I understand the idea of it being a sport but this dumbing down of fencing and swordfighting is bad, fencing used to be a serious martial art if you look at what the French were doing in the middle ages, even recently you can look at martial arts like tawkendo be made more sport like then how it used to be, karate with its mcdojos, boxing with its terrible trainers and unhealthy unmotivated fighters, wrestling not even having a serious popular fighting sport or tournament unless you count people in the ufc who do wrestle, I mean it's seriously silly to say call it fencing, just because their two weapons doesn't mean it's what it is supposed to be

Funny that he considers fencing extremely unrealistic, but then proceed to show scenes from movies, which are usually not so accurate.

The current fencing in sports prioritize safety, it's a game where the first hit matters unlike in the past where fencing was more of like a battle sports entertainment. It might not be that exciting, but whenever I watch fencing, I can see that players have fun and that's what matters.

@midshipman8654

2 жыл бұрын

yah, but would adding longer reposte times detract anything from the experience more than it gives?

@lucasart328

2 жыл бұрын

Not fun for me

I have a question for you gentlemen and scholars of the fencing art. Do you think tactics would change a lot in saber if we were to use a circle instead a piste?

@ThePlagueWarden

3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely Once you add lateral movement for a formerly-linear system, or when you make a formerly-lateral system linear, the rules of engagement change into being something far different on a fundamental level

@jamesmurray7042

3 жыл бұрын

My first fencing master developed rules for a circular piste, it was a lot of fun. A dividing line in the middle, you could lunge across but not move completely into the opponents half. You could not step outside the circle and there was not enough room to retreat completely from an attack so it was intense. HEMA generally fight within a circle with no restriction on movement or practice without a piste. Very interesting but it takes up alot of space though.

@robertocalvo934

3 жыл бұрын

@@jamesmurray7042 very interesting. I don't know what would really happen in a Sabre circle. . In karate, for instance, the tatami is square but the fighting is still mostly straight. In Sabre, with the right of way, first intention, etc perhaps the fighting style wouldn't change much, a little more angling (Szilagyi style) but still a straight business.

@RichardADastardly

2 жыл бұрын

@@jamesmurray7042 Prof. Gomer Williams? His circular piste was excellent, and really demonstrated his talent for making fencing more interesting.

@jamesmurray7042

2 жыл бұрын

@@RichardADastardly That's the gentlemen, he introduced me to fencing in the early eighties. He was very creative and deeply principled. A wonderful teacher.

Hema and Fencing go together pretty well in particular epee and hema.

@BrodatyOlo

3 жыл бұрын

Take the RoW from a sport sabre fencer, hand him a military sabre, give a moment to adjust to the increased weight and inertia - voila! You have a classically trained HEMA sabreur ;)

@gernotjenisch4152

3 жыл бұрын

@@BrodatyOlo and no mockering about us Sportes? Chapeau monsieur! But my hema-sabre is only decoration, not the time to search for a hema club......

@thomastucker7317

3 жыл бұрын

@@BrodatyOlo I've attended a few military sabre tournaments that had a RoW rule and honestly when everyone got accustomed to it I think it worked really well and there was a lot of beautiful exchanges

@velazquezarmouries

3 жыл бұрын

Epee and smallsword Foil and spadroon And sabre with light infantry saber

@aggroalex5470

2 жыл бұрын

@@velazquezarmouries epee: epee de combat Foil: small sword Sabre: light Italian dueling sabre

I made this video in anticipation for the Olympics when there will possibly be more of the uninitiated looking at fencing videos. If you are one of these people then welcome to the world of modern fencing.

@OlympicFoil

3 жыл бұрын

This is a huge brain play for the algorithm, bravo 👏👏 also nice vid, short and to the point - we just want to have some fun

@leftysabreuse3257

3 жыл бұрын

Love the lofi backdrop. Combine it with the men's sabre world cup on Algeria with the beautiful background and 🤩

@LoonaKissLater

2 жыл бұрын

It's a nice vidéo but fencing is a martial art and sport. That's what my master told me

@user-uk3ec3pb5h

2 жыл бұрын

Epeist are not more patient. The absence of Convention and all the body as a surface lead to take less risks in order to avoid double hit or counter attack.

@LoonaKissLater

2 жыл бұрын

@@user-uk3ec3pb5h it mean patient...

I do both HEMA (mainly longsword) and modern fencing (practice epee and also did bit of sabre in the past). I love both! But when it comes to modern fencing, I think epee is the most realistic when it comes to 18th century smallsword dueling as the epee is basicly a modern smallsword. Also the force you need to use to activate the tip for a hit is equel to the force needed to open a wound. And in smallsword duels a little wound was already needed to win (first blood). In modern foil and sabre, no matter what the force is, just a touch activates the scoring system. With modern sabre you can also cut with the false edge which makes it more unrealistic. Longsword fencing looks actually awesome to watch! Its usually quick, but can have nice exchanges.

@matthewclaridge8063

Жыл бұрын

I come from a fencing family and have fenced for most my life. I'm a little bit old now (plus fatter and slower 🤫😂) but in my teenage years i was quite a good left handed sabreur (if i don't say so myself). At my peak i was ranked 4th in NSW (2007 NSW Australia). Yes fencing is a sport but I Guarantee if I was to fight using live steel (an infantryman's saber for example [ i actually own a replica officer's Saber from the Napoleonic era] ). You would need someone with some SERIOUS skills to even come close to touching me. I also think people under estimating the speed/skill needed to handle just one simple parry and riposte (with a cut to the head for example) from a fencer. I don't mean to sound cocky but even at 37, I honestly think I could handle nearly all comers in a "real" sword fight.

@matthewclaridge8063

Жыл бұрын

I come from a fencing family and have fenced for most my life. I'm a little bit old now (plus fatter and slower 🤫😂) but in my teenage years i was quite a good left handed sabreur (if i don't say so myself). At my peak i was ranked 4th in NSW (2007 NSW Australia). I know I'm probably going to sound like a bit of a d#$k but....Yes fencing is a sport but I guarantee, if I was to fight using live steel (an infantryman's saber for example [ i actually own a replica officer's Saber from the Napoleonic era] ) you would need a HEMA practitioner with some SERIOUS skills to even come close to touching me. I also think people under estimating the speed/skill needed to be able to handle just ONE simple parry and riposte (with a cut to the head for example) from a fencer. I feel confident that even at 37, I could handle nearly all comers in a "real" sword fight.

I don't like waiting. Guys like me do Sabre.

As someone who has done a little bit of HEMA (I’m in fencing rn), HEMA can be VERY EXCITING. And looks almost as cool if not cooler than the movies sometimes.

One of my training partners is short so he is all about counters. I finally got to the point were I can parry his counter so we end up just parry-parry-parry while running across the track (he is better than me in melee). Does feel like movie shingshing sometimes.

Great video! Thanks for taking the time to make an engaging explanation of the sport

Thank you for such a detailed and concise video. I am sure this is a great sport that will ultimately make you a great swordman.

In a fight for your life there is rarely any moves that looks flashy. People often go for the most direct way of winning or they run away. No one wants to be hurt or killed. Even HEMA to a significant degree is a sport - it has rules

honestly why even play chess if it doesn't accurately model a real battle Solid video as always Slicer 👍

@SlicerSabre

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly!

@xyon9090

2 жыл бұрын

Because Chess has become a game entirely separate from field-war simulation. Don't talk down to Chess like that. Its a beautiful game to those who understand it.

@leftysabreuse3257

2 жыл бұрын

@@xyon9090 the comment is actually saying that, if people want to claim fencing isn't a real sport, then they should say the same about chess. Which is obviously not true. Chess is great

@based_prophet

2 жыл бұрын

That's why I'm gonna join this shit n beat ppl with some non canonical foot work of modern fencing it's just insulting ppl fought with swords wrong for about 300 years in the Europe world not gonna mention Americans lol would of Mr. Glass killed a bear if he fought like a fencer lol good lock even trying to make it even drop blood maybe after napoleon but honestly most ppl didn't have the amount of info books or free time we have to improve the foot work lol I'm signing up n gonna test my logic but if if floating foot is mandatory cause I despise that shit lol

@thechallenger752

2 жыл бұрын

@@leftysabreuse3257 Well, no one expects chess to recreate a real battle and the strategies one would use to win a war, but when people see two other people sword fighting, they expect that they are using real techniques to win a swordfight. One is obviously a game, but the other gives the appearance of a combat sport, even if it isn't. It's mostly perception and unless people educate themselves about fencing, they probably will never understand it is just a sport, not a real test of who would win a swordfight.

Probably a good idea to help manage expectations. My wife doesn't understand my love of watching high level fencing (used to do all three weapons, but more foil than anything) vs I do HEMA mostly now (anything from I.33 to smallsword) which she far prefers to watch. Who was in that last slice of video? The grainy black and white? And is there a full video somewhere?

@matthewpham9525

3 жыл бұрын

1967 Epee duel from schlager7 kzread.info

@ThornForTheWynn

11 ай бұрын

That is footage of the last duel with swords in history. It happened in France, in 1967, I believe.

Well its because it became a point style fighting. They act like the tip is a 50 cal ammunition that one shot anything. I hope they go back to the no armor sharp blade and actually tried to put down their enemy instead of just tagging em.

Sabre fencing is the most satisfying one out of the 3 styles.

Where can we see the full duel video you sampled in the end? It may not be flashy, but with the stakes of (potentially) life and death, it is CERTAINLY exciting!

@ThornForTheWynn

11 ай бұрын

Look up "last duel with swords" or something like that. It happened in the late 60s in France.

Yes. Excellent video. I was expecting not to like it because I don’t like the question. But like the answer. Fencers just want to have fun playing a sport they love. For some reason, people do not ask why soccer is so unrealistic.

Kendo guy here. It's amazing how similar our sports developed. For us, it went from Kenjutsu the martial art evolving into kendo the sport. Just like fencing, Kendo has pretty unrealistic rules as well.

@samsignorelli

2 жыл бұрын

At least we don't have to call our shot in Olympic fencing...nor deal with style points....all we need is for the light to go on!

@user-bn3yy8qf5g

2 жыл бұрын

@@samsignorelli that's horseshit. Kendo is more realistic because you have to demonstrate that you have dealt a killing blow. At least we actually have to follow through with our strikes and act as if we're using a real sword. Fencing is unrealistic because because the "points" you earn do not directly translate into "deaths". It is more like a simulated duel. That is to say, for show. It's called a "touch" for a reason

@user-bn3yy8qf5g

2 жыл бұрын

@@samsignorelli you also don't have to call your shot. You have demonstrated your lack of expertise in the subject. Only beginners are told to call their shots

@Master...deBater

5 ай бұрын

@@user-bn3yy8qf5g 18th century duels were very often to the death! Napoleon lost more officers to duels than to actual warfare! One of my ancestors General Reynier killed another French General in a smallsword duel! Later...during the 19th century...duels with the Epee De Combat were more often to first blood. That's why foil fencing (practice weapon for smallswords) concentrated on the torso (lethal attacks). And epee fencing (practice weapon for the epee de combat) targeted the entire body (first blood).

@Master...deBater

5 ай бұрын

@@samsignorelli They're both completely unrealistic!

Hey that last clip is from one of France's last honor duels in the 60s, even that was quite tame as they only wanted a little blood. A few harmless cuts, no different from what a gardener can get and it was over.

They may not be trained to kill, but it would be a mistake to challenge a skilled fencer in a knife fight. In the blink of an eye, you would be wondering what happened.

@matthewclaridge8063

Жыл бұрын

You're not wrong my friend....lol I come from a fencing family and have fenced for most my life. I'm a little bit old now (plus fatter and slower 🤫😂) but in my teenage years i was quite a good left handed sabreur (if i don't say so myself). At my peak i was ranked 4th in NSW (2007 NSW Australia). I know I'm probably going to sound like a bit of a d#$k but....Yes fencing is a sport but I guarantee, if I was to fight using live steel (an infantryman's saber for example [ i actually own a replica officer's Saber from the Napoleonic era] ) you would need a HEMA practitioner with some SERIOUS skills to even come close to touching me. I also think people under estimate the speed/skill needed to be able to handle just ONE simple parry and riposte (with a cut to the head for example) from a fencer. They have absolutely have to no idea of the speed involved and the reflexes needed I feel confident that even at 37, I could still handle nearly all comers in a "real" sword fight.

There's another channel that has a good video featuring what they call high level kendo versus fencing. Both styles have evolved heavily during their transitions from combat arts to sports, and it's definitely possible to make it more appealing to watch.

This is probably the most honest video about fencing and hema that I have seen on the internet. good job

As a beginner fencer, I was trying to find a easy way to make right of way thing make sense. Your definition is perfect

Olympic fencing is a screaming contest

I love your channel. Thanks for adding content in this awesome community!

The different speeds of the three different weapons are caused by separate rules and hitboxes

Actuatlly HEMA duels are pretty epic, at least compared to modern “fencing”. Honestly I don’t see how a modern fencer can consider themselves a martial artist in the slightest.

Takes me a second to register what variation is being played in each clip.

Because the reality- and self-defence-aspects have been filtered pit completely. It's what happens when you decide on a point-system. Especially point-and-stop. People will try to maximize point-making.

"why arent they attacking?" Epee. Epee is the answer.

As we say around my club, it's nice to fence the same person more than once, so we try very hard to fence safely.

The same can be said for sport taekwondo. It's become so far removed from it's original context that it's just a sport.

"Fencers aren't training to hurt people..." *shows the most frightening incident since Smirnov...*

@slicer sabre Really good video - thank you very much.

where can I find the full footage of that clip at 2:39

I was and eppe player and the swords are not that bendable but its the speed that makes them seem like that(they are still kind of bendable but less that you think)

Ok but be real here: if I were in a real sword fight, I’d be using footwork like crazy and only using the blade when comfortable with engaging. I’ve used this on HEMA guys and classical fencers, it outperforms people with more experience with those engagements than me. Fencing is a sport, the buttons take away from reality, but they’ve also improved on the techniques and skills of the fencers so much in the last 100 years that they need their footwork and analysis to know when the most effective attack will be available (according to the rules of that sport, which is the cause of such rapid improvement, as the rates of injury are lower and careers are longer)

@albertbresca8904

2 жыл бұрын

i found those HEMA guys (well people... girls and guys..lol) are quite slow copmp[ared to fencing as they train to make the hit (with an electric weapon... sometimes so soft the opponent doesn't feel it at all) whereas fencing you train to lightly hit the opponent but HEMA is like non electric fencing where you have to hit but in such a way as the opponent knows they have been hit....

@merciful_nacho9401

2 жыл бұрын

I was commenting on footwork in the sense that even with a heavy weapon, I would never choose stand and trade with someone up close. I've used HEMA Sabers and find way more success using more modern fencing footwork, then adjusting for the timing of a delayed/ weighted down hand

@matthewclaridge8063

Жыл бұрын

I come from a fencing family and have fenced for most my life. I'm a little bit old now (plus fatter and slower 🤫😂) but in my teenage years i was quite a good left handed sabreur (if i don't say so myself). At my peak i was ranked 4th in NSW (2007 NSW Australia). Yes fencing is a sport but I Guarantee if I was to fight using live steel (an infantryman's saber for example [ i actually own a replica officer's Saber from the Napoleonic era] ) you would need someone with some SERIOUS skills to even come close to touching me. I also think people under estimating the speed/skill needed to be able to handle just one simple parry and riposte (with a cut to the head for example) from a fencer. I don't mean to sound cocky but even at 37, I honestly think I could handle nearly all comers in a "real" sword fight.

"I guess it landed" LMAO

It still teaches the same **skills** as a "real fight' but is only an abstract approximation, when you can appreciate that it is a lot more fun

Nothing else sharpens your reflexes like fencing.

My uni didn't do sword fighting so I chose fencing as the next best thing

You HAD to show the face-hit foil one?

The game would be more interesting if you had to worry about the return blow. With all the electrical gear it would even be super easy to adjudicate. Just don't get touched within a .5 second after making your touch or the point is lost. Would result in a whole new game. Could even do it as a totally separate thing from foil, epee, and saber. What I want to know is why its never been seriously tried this way.

@SlicerSabre

2 жыл бұрын

I mean you pretty much described epee. The electric scoring doesn't automatically lock out the other person from hitting once one person hits.

@setscet

4 ай бұрын

This is exactly what epee is. The time window is a LOT shorter than the other two, and if both hit, they both get a point. It has definitely "seriously been tried" that way lol.

A question, I've done some Chinese straight sword (Jian) and one of the training principles is to keep contact with your opponent's blade. This gives feedback on their movements and allows for some control. Is this not a thing in fencing? It looked like the epee had a little more time with the blades in contact. I assume that there's not much feedback from the very bendy blades though.

swords in the Olympics are super different than a normal fencing competition

as a fighter, i find pain to be fun. both giving and receiving

Source for the black and white real duel footage at the end of the video please

I came with question, you answered it 10/10

Learned so much in 3 minytes

Hits don't hurt... What kind of fencing have you been practicing? I would look whipped sometimes. Red welts on my back, bruises on my shoulder...

Great video!

2:33 "But don't expect to see things like this". It's the same with us open hand martial artists. People expect to see all sorts of fancy Shaw Brothers stuff, and real fighting isn't even close to being like that.

I almost lost my thumb in my first 'fencing' match at about age 7. My friend and I had just watched 'Zorro' and we got the biggest pair of butcher knives we could find in the kitchen. I don't remember how many stitches it took, but I always liked sword fighting after that. I'm a pirate reenactor and 68 years old, but I still get into cutlass sparring at various events. There, we use blunted swords, but they'll still hurt the hell out of you if you're not careful. They won't cut very easily, but they'll tear. and there's enough force to break bones. We're careful, but there's still some kind of an injury now and then. That's probably why we drink so much rum!

As both (bad) fencer and HEMAist, I approve this video! :D

@matthewclaridge8063

Жыл бұрын

I come from a fencing family and have fenced for most my life. I'm a little bit old now (plus fatter and slower 🤫😂) but in my teenage years i was quite a good left handed sabreur (if i don't say so myself). At my peak i was ranked 4th in NSW (2007 NSW Australia). I know I'm probably going to sound like a bit of a d#$k but....Yes fencing is a sport but I guarantee, if I was to fight using live steel (an infantryman's saber for example [ i actually own a replica officer's Saber from the Napoleonic era] ) you would need a HEMA practitioner with some SERIOUS skills to even come close to touching me. I also think people under estimating the speed/skill needed to be able to handle just ONE simple parry and riposte (with a cut to the head for example) from a fencer. I feel confident that even at 37, I could handle nearly all comers in a "real" sword fight.

the only reason I began with fencing was for the history

The Emperor in the movie "Hero" (starring Jet Li) explains the art of sword beautifully. Lowest level: One masters art of sword that the sword seems to become part of his body. Next level: Anything the master uses is a sword. Even a twig can be as deadly as a sword. High level: The master becomes the sword. His arms, hands, legs are his sword. Highest level: There is no sword. There is no fight. There is no winning or losing. There is only peace.

I do fencing, I believe it’s pretty hard just like other sports but it’s very fast which can be confusing to people who go on with their daily lives. When I started off fencing I cried blood and tears because I was not quick enough to take down anyone I went against. My reflexes were slow. But I have now improved and I think fencing is usually about reflexes. My opinion. Foil is the hardest one I had been through. Frankly because my weapon had seemed to always hit the leg or head. But Epee is important with defence. I mean all are but defence is not my strongest skill.

Hema, the sport fencing of historical weapons.

i love both :) and i don´t have to choose.

That's just gonna tickle the enemy lol

ive really been wanting to take up fencing, specifically epee because i am much bigger and have broad shoulders so i doubt ill be able to do the other two im also a former archer and a yugioh player so patience isnt a problem either

Good foilist or epeeist could be good against smallsword fencer or rapier fencer.We could defend as well because we still practise normal parries.Id say that the fight is unrealistic only on some big event, or in big country.For example there was a state cup on serbia cuple days ago and fights were lookimg pretty much like a sword fight.

@Saluspergratiam

2 жыл бұрын

I think a foilist could stand up against a Smallsword fencer, but definitely not a Rapier fencer. Rapier's are very heavy weapons and far larger too. You'd be at a range disadvantage plus a weight disadvantage, you'd have a hard time parrying their blows

link to 2:50's duel?

A martial arts style of fencing and sword fighting would be awesome. and it's more possible now with the body armor suits with sensors.

@ohthreefiftyone

Жыл бұрын

Did you not finish the video?

I just wish fencing had a system for punishing a trade of blows.

@angerberd7829

2 жыл бұрын

Doubles in epee counts maybe

At the end of the video you can see two people these are french senators who decided to duel in the 60’s after a disagreement

I think a saber is my fav sword type. Epee is also very cool

Sabre isn't fast because they like going fast its because of the rules of scoring. You need speed to obtain the right of way to score Epee isn't slow because they are patient it's slow because of scoring. Unlike saber, if both hit at the same time in Epee they both get the point. it's in their best interest to not get hit so they engage more cautiously. With Sabre and Foil simultaneous is only off the starting line and means no one gets a point.

because it a game of tag now, not what i grow up with close to battle like

I’d hate to been around in 1659 to find out about it

Thanks for suggesting HEMA, never heard about them

No shit, I had no idea

Im ganna have my fencing lessons in like friday now currently it is november/15/monday 2021 and my mom wanted me to be assigned in it so i did cuz i thought it was a martial art about using long objects like swords…lol.

@ahhhsothisishowyouchangean162

Жыл бұрын

I started fencing with saber four days ago and find it fun, but the rules a bit wack. How did your journey went?

@happyworm8899

Жыл бұрын

@aahsothisishowyouchangean162 Pretty alright, it didnt last long tho because my coach went abroad and my mother didn't wanna pay to go abroad so it stopped there. I can probably say its been 3 months of my training with my coach outdoors cuz the gym was far, its been a year and 2 months now and it was a pretty alright journey, after my fencing lessons stopped i decided to self train myself HEMA which was pretty fun and easy but i stopped for a while and taught myself Arnis before i moved to boxing now. My advice for you is to train your legs and do some leg exercises, its ganna be very useful because your legs will be sore when in training and try some cardio/stamina training cuz you'll get tired alot in this training

I was a nationally ranked saber fencer. My long time coach & mentor was Rich Wayland. We competed against OFA & Ed Korfanty’s students all the time as well as Michael & Bob Marx’ students at Northwest. It’s not all unrealistic. There’s sport technique and conventional technique. Sport fencing is generally what everyone learns when they’re trying to become competitive. It has its own challenges. I won’t go into crazy detail, but sport fencing is optimized to achieve a touch without getting touched. Saber is literally a touch and epee/foil use little buttons at the end. In that same spirit, sport fencing is mostly about speed. Getting the touch and getting out. Conventional fencing does exist and if you go far enough with sport fencing, you’ll get a lot of exposure to it. My coach was pretty old and his coach was even older (ww2 generation). They were military guys. My coach was a career pilot in the Air Force through Vietnam and had a lot of connections to the Air Force academy team. He knew a ton of conventional technique which he did train me in and it is very different. I was also trained conventionally by Magdi (a well known Egyptian fencer). My coach also worked with Delmar Calvert who was old school French Foreign Legion. A LOT of conventional fencing there. I recommend looking these people up. In the end, they’re just very different. I only ever used 2 or 3 conventional techniques in actual competition (hand guard closure, outside disarm & septime to point). They’re just not advantageous when the swords are that light and it’s based on the quickest touch. However, sport fencing techniques would be atrocious for real life application, particularly when dealing with a heavy weapon and the fact that you can get touched even once (can’t leave openings for sport advantage). So if I had a stick, bat, or baton, I would use conventional positioning & execution of the technique rather than sport.

Decir que la Esgrima es "unrealistic" es una ignorancia y un atrevimiento frente a un deporte tan extraordinario y fantástico, saludos

I have never fenced but I assume what happened at 1:11 is something you get warned about on day 1?😅

The big thing I think to understand when differing actual rapier combat and fencing is the rules. There are very minimal agreed upon rules when trying to stab someone to death with a rapier, but in sport fencing, each weapon has about 20 pages of rules in a handbook that cover scoring, infractions, equipment, refereeing, and everything that is needed to make the sport fair and enjoyable. The thing about having complex rules however, is that the sport will evolve around them. Which fencing does, and it’s evident in each weapon’s fighting style. Epee’s rules favoring a patient defender, and saber’s rules favoring an aggressive attacker. To a degree, the same goes for HEMA. Although most practitioners are more traditionalists than anything, but a fair few places train to win tournaments rather than be purist, and that means training to play around the strengths of the rules you’re playing in rather than the way the manuscripts were written (being that they were written for actual combat with little to no rules at all.)

I know these things. I’m a fencer 🤺 the swords are bendy because the people that are fighting can keep safe

@Klee15

2 жыл бұрын

Bendy or no, protective gear or no, taking a lunge to the kneecap the other week makes me grateful fencing really is just a sport with non-pointed equipment and mostly-benevolent opponents. I get the sense people criticizing fencing weapons as "not real swords" wouldn't care about the distinction if they were struck by one unprotected.

I mean yea agree it's a sport and a very fun one at that.

I'd take HEMA over the antenna poke.

Fencing has changed over the many years since it’s original martial art.

When we all were little ours mothers all said "Don't run with knifes".

As a Kendoka, I know exactly what you mean.