I had an employer who was a mastering engineer and a teacher previously. He told me he used to have students make a mix using only level faders. Then do it again using faders and panning. Then do it again with faders, panning, and hi pass filters. And so forth for a few more steps. I think people will over utilize plugins and processing without knowing what they want to hear or feel. I feel like most my mixes are just levels, pans, and filters.

@danielnaron

Жыл бұрын

Wow, that’s actually a great exercise!

@darkcharmrecords

Жыл бұрын

This is excellent, thank you for sharig this

@Creator_Veeto_PAEACP

10 ай бұрын

I agree, i will get excited about exciters, new compressors, and saturation but taking a step back and keeping it simple has helped my mixed much more live and in the studio. I think live mixing really helped me realize that less is more.

@ICUFatCatDaddy

2 ай бұрын

The longer i do it, the less plugins i use. And i use primarily stock plugins these days...many channels don't even have plugins

@AlexSzokolyai

2 ай бұрын

If the production is quality, there shouldn’t be much else needed besides level, panning, and simple EQ and compression. If I produce a track and have control over the sound design, the mix part is easy, as the sounds already fit together!

I gain stage for multiple reasons, if I don’t gain stage then I’ll have issues where adding a plugin will clip the track if it’s too high coming in for example. Gain staging helped me to mix and sound better, the thing about mixing that’s cool and fun is everyone has their own workflow. And for me the mix balance is more easier for me after gain staging.

@ric8248

Ай бұрын

any nonlinear plugin that might clip the signal will have its own input level knob

This particular process and concept, above all others, truly was the game changer and got me to a point that I could make a mix, instead of mixing a variety of clipping noise.

The idea with peak normalizing is to do it on the raw tracks, and it has no impact on their final level in the mix. They still need to be mixed. What is gives you is a more predictable result when you are using plugin chains that you have setup in advance for the expected level. So it can be a time saver.

@ridinglow6732

10 ай бұрын

Normalizing all tracks will sound bad

@franlarsen80

10 ай бұрын

@@ridinglow6732 Normalizing does not change the tonality of a track at all.

@allancerf9038

2 ай бұрын

@@franlarsen80 No one said anything about tonality dude. I suggest you look up what normalizing is. Also, if you're talking about things on the master bus that create K-14 you understand that doesn't take into account actual listening levels and it is a summing tool. It's not what the maker of this video warns against which is leveling all sounds regardless of dynamic range together. So a symphony orchesta at the same level as a solo flute, LOL.

You are so good at explaining things, thank you so much, great video!

I think usually what people mean by gain staging is not about making everything the same level, but leaving room for the mix to not clip when you put every track together. That's the main goal for me at least.

@rome8180

Жыл бұрын

It's not about not clipping. You can avoid clipping at literally any step of your process. Is your mix coming into your stereo output too hot? Just slap on any plugin with an input and output knob and adjust it there. Your mix is no longer clipping. Problem solved, right? No, not really. You still might be feeding in signal too hot at any step of the process. It might be happening three levels down and you don't even realize it. It's about not overloading plugins and allowing yourself enough headroom for dynamics. If it was just about not clipping at the very end of the chain, you could just put on a true peak limiter and be done with it.

@felipealfaro4536

11 ай бұрын

@@rome8180 The problem is when you use a compressor and compress so much, o you have to move so much the input, output or threshold or when you need to ride faders, remember de fader scale is logarithmic, near to 0 is more detailed.

@ridinglow6732

10 ай бұрын

@@rome8180unmmm that’s literally what he meant dude!

Thanks so much for making this topic clear and concise in a world where the usage of the term "gain staging" is as diverse and dynamic as all the colors in the spectrum. This what you've provided is quite liberating! 😀

THANK YOU! I was doing static mixes all my life until I started hearing about gain staging. So I researched it, tried it, and struggled with it. I did get some decent results, but I kept wondering why they weren't better results than what I'd always done. And then you made this video. And I thank you for "giving me permission" to go back to static mixes. That's what I know, where I'm comfortable, and what gives me the results I want. [for readers of this comment, I've been recording for over 40 years, so it's not a matter of being a relatively new kid on the block who doesn't grasp the concept of mixing well. ;-) ]

@kellygreenii

Ай бұрын

What sounds good is good…and there isn’t one “right way” to do things. A lot of these things are holdovers from analog recording where you had to be very mindful of gain levels, distortion , and noise. It’s why I just smh at guys who emphatically insist that analog sounds better than digital. I’m like, “Have you forgotten about all the noise that turned up in even the best analog recording?” That was the first thing that struck me back in 1984 when I heard my first CD: The noise is gone….

Bro. Perfect breakdown. Instant subscribe. Good job sir. 💪

👍 Great videos, thanks! 🙏 I also compose and mix practically simultaneously, so I adjust the levels from the beginning and if I decide to add or remove an instrument somewhere, I adjust the volumes of the rest with automation if needed. I put the effects (compressor, Eq, etc) almost at the end of the job, then I make sure I have the correct overall volume for the MixBus effects chain. I'm not a sound engineer, much less a mix or mastering engineer, but with this system, it seems to me that I have more control of the balance during composition and get to the mastering phase faster.

On a fundamental level I totally agree that it's more important to focus on making music rather than fretting if the gain of everything is perfect. However I think the misunderstanding of gain is the main issue. Gain is not the same as setting levels. Gain is setting how much of the signal is available. It's like plumbing. You have the gain/main water line which limits how much water you can pull at a given time. The fader is like a faucet. You can control how much of the source you want to use. 😀

@recordingrevolution

Жыл бұрын

Sure I agree with you. I just disagree that every track needs to be normalized to a specific, measurable peak volume. It's an unnecessary step. More busywork and less music-making.

@kevinreddoch5214

Жыл бұрын

@@recordingrevolution Absolutely. It's definitely not something people need to spend a lot of time on. It's just more of a utility thing that people should know so they can have full control. I think that's what I love about sources like this, it helps people understand those tools better so they can utilize them when needed. 👍

@KevinWayne

Жыл бұрын

@@recordingrevolution Or you could use a DAW like Reaper, wherein you can get an action installed to normalize everything to a desired level. Select all items, run Normalizer. Done in less than 15 seconds, give or take. No busy work at all 😉

@jonbrown6099

Жыл бұрын

Tell us you don’t understand the electrical side of audio engineering and gain staging/structure without telling us. But sure! I’ll totally buy your tutorial. 🥴

@allancerf9038

2 ай бұрын

@@KevinWayne Dude, you're HILARIOUS. You can't know unless you're doing four track EDM or something, similar, or even, regardless of genre... To help retrain your thinking, let's use the shaker example. Even if your music is ridulously simple, unless it's 'identical' on every song, you can't know what to tell Reaper (all DAWs have something like this feature for years or decades, dude) to normalize to. If you're making a House track where you want shaker only during a build, it will be loud. If you're doing some sort of Bollywood dance track and it only comes in after some dude says 'awright,' you want it soft. Unless you have the ears of John Barry (when he was alive) there's no way you can know what to normalize for in advance, unless you're creating idential songs every single time out. I won't invoice you.

Finally 💙. Thanks. I always thought I was wrong. I kinda do gain staging but I think I do it differently. First I mix all the tracks, find the right level between all the tracks using just the faders, no plugins, just fader levels, focusing on what sounds right to me in terms of relative balance between the tracks. Then, I select all the tracks and I bring all the faders down (or up) till the master output gets to around -6 db. Then I apply plugins and I make sure to keep that - 6db in the master output by adjusting the output volume of each plugin, I do not touch the faders anymore (besides small corrections). It musically works for me, it’s not math, and it’s simple. Thank you Joe.

I love your humor and your comparisons. Less is more.

very interesting, clearly explained and common sense advice Joe, thank you.

Interesting! I actually take this approach for tracks I'm using heavy compression on, because Graham had previously mentioned many plug-ins function optimally at around -18db. I do find that my plug ins react better with the input in that range, BUT I now realize that I probably have been skipping or RUSHING the static mix because I can "fix it later" with plug ins. This is another super useful video for breaking a bad habit I didnt realize I did, thank you Joe! Maybe a 5 minutes to breaking habits series is in order 👀

Absolutely agree - really sensible advice. It seems that gainstaging has become something of a cult. Of course, balance the input and output levels in the stream but sorting a static/simple level/pan balance before whamming on those plugins is such a really good discipline. You might also find that you don’t need all those plugins after all…

Great video Joe!! I agree and I think getting recording levels right(GIRATS) is the first step. I have my target levels I aim for when tracking. After that it's static mix and I'll do a reference bounce that I'll live with for a day or so that I'll listen for what's needed then I'll go after it and apply what I feel is necessary.

Very well explained. Glad to have learnt from you

Great video man.

"Unnecessarily complicated" is a good description. I think some use it like the Emperor's New Clothes - this video is spot on - thanks Joe.

@kevinreddoch5214

Жыл бұрын

I think there's a lot of things we tend to overcomplicate. I find that if I think of things in big picture ideas it helps keep me on track. When I think of all the potential possibilities something can do I get bogged down trying a million things. Typically I end up doing what my gut told me to do in the first place, but it just took me longer.

I just never thought this was a thing before I started watching KZread for mixing strategies. I make sure a track is close to zero. I add fx, and make sure it can go close to zero without sacrificing dynamic range. Then when I’m mixing, I can turn everything down, or bring it all up depending on what the mix needs.

I heard you make a lot of valid points but none were a case against gain staging. This is the process of maximizing a signal's level so as to minimize noise and optimize it for the next amplification stage in the chain. Normalizing tracks so the waveforms look bigger is not gain staging and it never was.

Awesome Well Said! When I first started out it was like I need a Track Plugin to get everything to -18dB haha then Im good to go then I found trust in a mixing engineer who taught me to balance your raw tracks where to start then pan etc until you have a raw mix souinding as good as it gets- then start mixing you will use less processing because you did this- Neil Young once told Al Schmitt after he did this that this is how he wanted it do not mix it leave it raw because in Neil Youngs point of view it sounded great and gave the album the feel he wanted- thanks for all your hard work for us youtubers love your channel!

Yes, all this works BUT : You need to have good RECORDING LEVELS FIRST . That is where gain staging is crucial. Because even if you record too hot , you can get a good static mix with faders and panning ... BUT inserts are PRE-FADERS, and if you throw an analog emulation where -18db Vu is a good starting point(most of them are calibrated this way, ) on a track recorded too hot, that's where problems start...

@AlexTritok

Жыл бұрын

And when you didn't record the tracks yourself (pretty common) , you need to check their levels first...so.... gainstage ;)

@jenniferlaynemusic

Жыл бұрын

Yeah he seems to have misunderstood the definition of gain staging. Gain staging is about individual tracks. What he's actually referring to is mix balance volume

I agree but I also gain stage. I take Hornet VU meter, put it on first track. set it to -18db for the reference setting and 0db for peak just to limit anything way out there, set to group 1. Now drag that over to every other track. Open any instance, click auto, you will see the gain dial move. Play your song from start to finish then click stop. Auto will turn off and every track has been set to a reference level. Basically you have given yourself some headroom without moving a fader yet. Now do your static mix, adjust panning as you deem necessary. Check in mono to see if anything pops out, adjust, switch back to stereo, repeat. At end you should have a decent mix without a single plug-in yet. Now start listening for what the tracks need in context with one another, compression, eq, etc. I work this way especially now I’ve gone to hybrid mixing. I know if I’ve done the above, when I send out a track via adat into my Ferrofish ad/da converter and into whatever 500 series modules i want to use on the track that I started into that chain with headroom. I don’t obsess over it, I use an automated tool, listen to the song as it is doing its thing and move on, never to mess with gain staging any further. This way of working may not be for everyone, but it works for me, it is cheap and maybe takes 10 minutes to setup part of which I’d be listening to the track anyways just to get an idea of where I want to take things. Good luck everyone and have fun mixing (which I think Joe is spot on about here!)

Gain staging is crucial. I think your point is more on having a good balance in mix context

@BrianLarney

Жыл бұрын

Agreed. Despite what he says about plugins, they really do perform better within a specific input range.

@elreyabeja4539

Жыл бұрын

yeah, it's a clumsy video. Gain staging is important and I think he agrees, but there is a thing now where a lot of people are normalising EVERY SINGLE TRACK to -18db because they heard the "gainstaging" buzzword and the magic number. They aren't really gainstaging at all ie using their ears, and I think that's what this vid is about

@illyph9963

Жыл бұрын

@@elreyabeja4539 yea that “-18” varies by daw too lol, like from what I’ve heard that’s pro tools sweet spot, I can tell u I use reason and the number is “-10”, and I’ve seen people using logic and other daws say different numbers too, I really think all daw’s can make same end result, but the road to get there is not the same in any 2 daws lol

@AlexTritok

Жыл бұрын

​@@elreyabeja4539 Normalising is all about PEAKS level...The "-18db" is about RMS , and more precisely -18dbVU.... Not the same thing at all

@yellowcake1964

Жыл бұрын

This!

You hit the nail right on the head!!! Ive been saying this for years. Use your ears!!!

@zoehaze

Жыл бұрын

I learned barely with out any gear which forced me to use the staic approach. My faders position were normalized per say but the elements themselves were static. My fader for say that shaker was unity but it was suddle in mix and not processed to make it suddle in the mix

If you use analog modeled plugins it’s good to be aware that -18 db is unity gain for many plug-in algorithms. Also, on the way in, you also don’t want to be too hot. It’s best to be around -18 when tracking. Or you are actually pushing the converters. It seems like he really misunderstands that you set the levels so they are correct for processing and then you use the faders for the balance like a normal person. Really weird he doesn’t get it.

Joe, I love your videos and I think you carry the RR torch very well. In this case, I think you understand "gain staging" different than I do. I certainly wouldn't do any normalisation or change the fundamental audio in any way unless I had to for some reason. The way I understand gain staging is more akin to your first example, but taken further down the line. Gain staging as I understand it, is more akin to how you drive the console. Recording the audiot levels so the channel has some headroom, then setting the channel levels to keep some headroom at the input of your plugins and especially on your busses, and master 2 bus. Sometimes I had to lower the level of the audio in the file itself so I could turn the fader to the sweet spot yet keep that headroom, especially in the busses and mixes. Driving a channel for "color" can be done in the ssl strip or whatever (within the plugin) whilst still keeping headroom on the fader. But healthy headroom in the busses and faders is paramount, and why I gain stage every time.

I needed this video, and the mixing Gods heard my prayers! I trust Joe when it comes to these topics! The best part is that I think he read my mind, I’m doing a lot of math and not a lot of music! I have an acoustically treated room and Neumann KH 150 monitors & 750 subwoofer, but I spend too much time looking at the Clarity M meter and VU meters! 🤦🏽‍♂️

@jorykevinberger7047

Жыл бұрын

The main thing is you know why you’re looking at meters, so if you look at them less, when you DO look you’ll know what it means to you. Math is music and music is math. When the ear doesn’t like something it’s because of poor math. Now you know the rules, you can likely trust your ear to do that musical math a bit more by instinct as part of your process. Cheers!

One of the reasons to gain stage correctly is to allow head room. Tracks tend to creep up in level during a mix so if you’re aiming for -14LUFS overall it’s worth starting at - 18 to allow for this. Once automation is used it can be hard to drop overall levels

Isn't there a difference between gain staging, (making sure that the signal being recorded is at the appropriate gain in the beginning and then going from one device and or plug in to the next), and relative volume levels between the different signals or tracks? I thought those were 2 different issues...

@mx3taz

4 ай бұрын

Yes. Volume balance between sounds (using faders) is the last step in mixing. After gain staging and using the plugins u want, u have to balance ur mix (cause effects affect the volume level)

Agree. Same here. Almost forgot about Gainstaging in the box (the pro audio scientific way) but I produce and mix, so i’m setting levels very early and fine tune on the go. On the Mixbus eventually if i put a tape then I make sure volume is hitting correctly. For shakers it depends of the genre. (Cf Latin music) Best thing is to make them evolve. Louder in some parts, quieter in others.

Gain staging for me is getting all the levels of all my session tracks to hover around -10dBFS with no processing engaged. That will usually ensure me enough wiggle room once I do have my plugins and auxes in the mix. By the end of the mix, I should then have another 5dB of headroom left to account for any mastering processes and make sure my True-Peaks are below 0dBFS. It basically comes down to understanding how much headroom your particular system has to work with.

I understand what you’re trying to say but gain and level are two different things. Gain staging in mixing isn’t really a thing, gain staging only applies to recording as an engineer, not a mixer. Like you said briefly it applies to analog hardware, and setting the right gains through a chain of analog hardware on the way IN to the DAW. Which is very important it have proper gains hence gain staging. I think the conversation you’re trying to have is about a great balanced mix, not gain staging.

@rome8180

Жыл бұрын

Gain staging in mixing is absolutely a thing. Plugins have levels they perform best at. Also, you need enough headroom at the end of the mix to allow for full dynamics and proper mastering. For example, if you want the chorus to be 3 db louder than the verses, that can only happen if you have 3 db of room to work with. And if you're hitting a compressor harder than you want to because the level you're feeding into it is too hot, you might be getting unwanted distortion. You might not realize the signal is too hot because it might not be too hot AFTER it goes through the compressor. The input is too hot, not the output. So you look at the volume fader on your track and it looks fine. But you haven't properly gain staged.

How I think of gain staging is that when recordign vocals for example I record with a lot of headroom and in the box you can just drag the volume up or down within the playlist before the sound even hits the mixer inserts with the plugins. So even though I have a pre made vocal chain ready for that microphone I use (on the mixer insert ), all I need to make sure of is that the recording isn't clipping after each plugin and that the level stays the same as the recording after everything. Then after that (how loud the vocal should be in the mix) I just refference and set it later when I am balancing the volume of the track when I have more tracks ready. But I like to record many vocal takes at around -21 dB peak so when you stack 10 takes together into the same mixer insert channel it will not cause any clipping. because if you record at -7 peak for each vocal you will need to lower them manually later in the playlist each time you want to add more vocal takes. And becasue it is a digital signal in it will not change much how much gain IN you use because the noise floor is the same pretty much. I just set a healthy Gain IN on the interface and then gainstage the playlist when I have all the vocal tracks ready to hit the mixer at a healthy level. For example if you gain stage something to quiet into the mixer you need to crank the compressor +32 dB to even get a -5db gain reduction and that is probably why when using the "-18" rule you gain stage the recording inside the playlist to "some average decent level" giving the plugin a healthy amount of signal IN for it to process. Like a vocal that needs compressing but later will be set to a lower volume for a backing track. But you don't need gain staging for everything. for example the hi hat on my track im working on is hitting -51 dB peak (kick at -10 dB giving the drums a 41 dB of dynamic range) and is plenty loud with only a EQ and after the master chain it hits at -31dB peak. One element that is quiet and static dynamically needs almost nothing just a correct level.

In 1982 I custom built a recording mixer for my studio, that would allow me to set the input level of each strip, and then apply any eq (usually high pass or similar) to deliver the best signal level for each input to its corresponding track of the tape recorder - in essence, so that the peak of each instrument or voice would be the same on each track of the tape. The signals were returned to the corresponding channels on the console just ahead of the fader, pan and often reverb send (post fader). The faders represented the loudness of each returning track, allowing a mix to be made without interfering with the level going to tape. So your shaker channel would have the fader set at a different position than the kick drum, which would be different from any of the other returned signals. When I get tracks from someone else to mix, often live recorded tracks, the firs thing I do is load them all into a simple application that allows me to run a normalize function to make their peaks equal -6 db. This makes them similar to signal on the tape I used to record to. I then load them into Logic, or other DAW, and set the faders and pans as I would expect the various levels to be represented visually for the mix. At -6db, there's enough room if a channel requires work using an equalizer or other plugin without overloading it, but it also allows me to see the waveforms clearly for every channel. I also only bring up sounds like kick, bass, and vocal to -6 on the fader to begin with, to allow everything to be added without overloading the mix buss. What I've found is that some plugins are not designed very well and require that I insert the "gain" plugin (Logic) prior to the other plugin so I can set the gain (staging) so as not to overload, or not to under feed, that plugin. In the analogue world, we would gain stage to control at which stage the signal was to be amplified cleanly, or to control an amount of overdriving the gain going into a piece of analogue gear. I don't think of the concept of gain staging as a complex or confusing one, at least it wasn't during the time I instructed courses in the early 80s. That said, music and recording are very subjective in the creative phases, and I would override actual electronic engineers when the numbers didn't look good, in favour of the achieved sound.

I like your videos, and I subscribed. I especially love your idea of Lcr. I have a question about it: if I have to mix a string quartet, how can I use it? How do I distribute-between L, C, and R-two violins, a viola, and a cello? Thank you and have a good day.

Gain-staging is about getting the right amount of signal to the next device in the chain while maximizing the signal-to-noise ratio overall. It's not as relevant when dealing with fully arbitrary digital mixing, but it's a habit from live audio that I don't feel like giving up and it proves useful when dealing with emulation plug-ins. As for track normalization, I find it very useful when working from templates to do fast turnarounds on recurring projects with consistent elements. Normalizing the raw tracks will set up the templates properly for fine-tuning rather than scratch-building.

@rome8180

Жыл бұрын

Your first paragraph here is one of the only accurate paragraphs in this entire comment section. A lot of people seem to think they understand gain staging but don't. You're absolutely right about digital mixing. The only two reasons to really gain stage in the box: 1) certain plugins behave better at certain levels; 2) you want to make sure you have enough headroom at the very end of your chain for proper dynamics. That's about it as far as I'm concerned. Clipping isn't a concern because you can just back off the signal at any point in the process before the final stereo output.

@recordingrevolution

Жыл бұрын

This makes sense. I think the idea of normalizing everything to get more headroom comes from the bad practice of recording everything way too hot. I record very conservative levels, and therefore I don't need to re-introduce headroom when I start mixing.

@funkyjkl

Жыл бұрын

Give this man a beer

@funkyjkl

Жыл бұрын

@@recordingrevolution thats gain staging

@felipealfaro4536

11 ай бұрын

@@recordingrevolution yeah, but that is you, like a mixing engeneer we resive a lot of stuff from others, so they don't record everything with a resonable headroom

I think a bit of both helps - and it really does go back to the days of printing to tape…noise floor, tape ‘hiss’ etc but you can’t go past a fader/pan mix as if the ‘band’ was playing live IMHO JPMusic

Thank you. I was trying to mix a track. I was throwing in plugins instead of balancing the volumes to make the song sound good to ears.(I don't know if I got the lesson right)

I love this video Joe. I instinctively knew that gain staging was not making my mixing better or faster. Thanks so much for articulating why 🙂

That "not literally" self-correction at 5:35 was great. I feel like I can take you more seriously than about 97% of the rest of the internet. 😂

@recordingrevolution

Жыл бұрын

The word literally is literally a plague.

There are a couple of advantages to setting every track and bus to a consistent level and then using faders to adjust the balance in the mix. And that is over a series of similar mixes, you start to get a numerical feel for where the faders need to go for a certain type of track. So in terms of drums, for example, your kick might be somewhere around 0, but your hi-hat is probably going to be something like -12db. Assuming you use a reverb buss with sends, similar principle, after a few mixes you get to know a rough fader level where it's not too overwhelming, but also audible. Secondly, it pairs nicely with a philosophy of where possible, do volume cuts on faders rather than boosts, and anything that is too loud will stick out like the proverbial sore thumb.

Great vid as always. As a decade long follower, I respect your teachings. Gain Staging (GS) is fundamental to recording and mixing. It Is done in every recording studio, house of worship, club house, vehicle. It’s just not called gain staging. Most just say “setting levels”. I agree some get hung up on calling it GS and spending so much time on that process. However, every mixing engineer will have to go through this phase. I used to GS with a plugging from hornet and now I do it as I go using the input and normalize gain features in Studio One. 1000 x faster. I set my levels as I go or prior to starting the static mix. GS will make the difference in how balanced your mix is. I can get a loud mix at -18dbfs because I spend time on setting the proper levels at the front end. Mixing will be much easier if levels are set to where the faders can stay at 0 thereby making minimal fader ( attenuator) moves. You’re awesome Joe.

@recordingrevolution

Жыл бұрын

I think that's part of the problem. I'm with you on how to set levels. But there are a lot of people who say that during MIXING you should set levels to X dB before starting. That's the par that I feel is unnecessarily complicated.

@jorykevinberger7047

Жыл бұрын

@@recordingrevolution that’s not complicated, that’s simple. As quick in logic as 2 clicks. Select all. Normalize region gain. Cheers.

A discussion of "Gainstaging" without talking about signal-to-noise ratio, clipping, and headroom, is not a discussion of gain-staging at all. This video is about mixing. I don't think you understand the fundamental concept of gain-staging.

@ValentinZopp

2 ай бұрын

Correct.

@manuzid6837

11 күн бұрын

Thats so true

Gain staging is so your audio is prepped for upcoming edits, such as soft compression, EQ, hard compression etc, when the audio is at its correct levels it hits them plugins in its best possible format

I’m reason user, and they really like model there signal flow off analog, from the virtual synth in rack, to the input gain-dynamics-eq-insert-send-fader, so I do gain stage the sounds coming in at the gain input knob to -10db to start for headroom, don’t have to do it to every sound, a lot come in around there naturally, but if certain patches or samples are too low or too high, I will bring up or down, that way I have an even starting point “pre” processing, then they all go down the channel strip “through” the processing, and then I adjust the “levels” of mix, with the faders, post processing, which usually after all the set up along way, are minimal fader movements, sometimes I break these rules for creative reasons, like pushing input gain into channel comp on a parallel track, stuff like that, but for the most part I always do that way, I don’t know how other daws work with the channel strip, but in reason, gain staging definitely immensely improved my mixes once I properly understood it lol

I have approached gain staging more globally. If you start a mix and the overall levels are too high on the master fader, it could mean that the cumulative level is just too high. I use a VU meter and play all tracks with faders at "0". I reference zero on the VU meter to -18 dB. I then use clip gain to bring up or down all the tracks simultaneously (I select ALL). I try to keep the average level at zero(-18). That gives me headroom before adding plugins, etc. Of course, some tracks are more likely to be the culprits of raising the gain than others. The triangle track will probably not be as "guilty" as the kick, snare, or bass in the high-gain lineup, so after an initial adjustment to all the tracks, I will go back and find some lower-level tracks and see if they need further attention.

Thanks Joe, I put a template together with all plugins turned off. (1st plugin on every track is a trim which is also turned off). Then when recording a track set a good input level not too weak & definitely well below clipping. Do a rough mix as you continue to record other tracks. It helps to get the overall picture of the song. Finally, use only needed plugins to enhance or color tracks in the context of the song.

@GillRockatansky

Жыл бұрын

That's gain staging.

Gain staging (for me) is done pre-insert/pre-fader, I think that's the key element. But I use Cubase and the gain control is located as such in the signal chain, and appears as part of the mixer channel strips.

@ManuMRM

Жыл бұрын

Thats correct. People dont really know what gainstage is. This video and its content is nonsense, bro.

i've never "normalized" signals when gain-staging, but i do "averages" like those through a VU or RMS meter. so "around" -14dBFS, not always exactly -14. that's not to say that this level is maintained throughout the mix, it's just a strong initial signal, that can be turned down if needed, or up. if turned up, that initial -14dBFS gives me plenty of room to work with. as i understand it, it's usually involving recording hardware or all analog recordings, to maintain a good S/N ratio. in the digital or DAW world, its most useful when processing through analog style plugins or to maintain whatever levels you have of a certain instrument going in & coming out of processors (ie; a hi hat goes into a compressor at -11 & so it comes out of the compressor at -11 or so) at the end, it's intending on allowing a predetermined amount of headroom (~ -6dB), to accommodate any peaks or spikes on the master

Joe, I've got a series of RND 511 preamps that have no output transformer. When I drive the input to get a little grit/character, the signal coming into Logic is so hot that I'll peg the main outs with only a piano and vocal recorded, let alone drums, bass, etc. So, I nudge down the gain on the tracks in post until they're at that -18 level. Then I feel I've got the tracks prepped for a static mix, and from there also primed them for whatever compression, etc. I feel is needed. I avoid normalizing the tracks, maybe that's just me. For me, gain-staging isn't about getting all the tracks to the same volume, per se (to your shaker point), it's more about controlling the levels and then going to the faders to get that static mix. Could be your message is for beginner engineers, but I recon one of the first mistakes they'll make is starting their mix process either pegging the main outs with no headroom left, or pulling faders way down and losing fidelity in subtle volume changes. I'm not saying I disagree with your point, but hoping to learn something if I'm approaching this wrong...

All equipment is different. There’s a certain amount of gain in order to receive proper levels that are loud enough to see a noise floor and not too loud to cause clipping. There’s a difference between mic,line,and instrument output. Try recording a bass without accounting for it and it’ll blow every speaker in your system.

Thank you! I been saying this for sooooo long! People make creating music more complicated than it needs to be.

Im gonna drop a gem for yall right here, this is the absolute foundation of the track your mixing "all sounds are not the same, why would they be at the same volume"...yes. the problem im having is, Gain staging..and leveling are 2 different processes. you need to keep signal flow in mind. if your recording a vocal..the signal flow is..the artist, the microphone, interface/preamp, then the DAW.and so on. *if you dont gain at EACH stage of the signal flow, then by time you get to master youre going to get unwanted distortion.* also these plugins are based off of analogue gear as you said, they work BEST with a certain amount of signal going into them..and everytime you make an adjustment within a plugin..theres a gain option built into, pretty much every plugin for a reason. if your signal is at -27db..and you make a change in a plugin that turns your sound up to -20...you then need to gain stage down within that plugin. gain staging is something you should have in the back of your mind through out an ENTIRE session. every change you make..gain stage. after the initial gain staging of your sounds (before Processing with plugins) youd move onto leveling/panning on the mixer to set the appropriate levels for your elements of the track. because as you said..a shaker should not be at the same level as a snare..thats why its called leveling..and gain staging is called gain staging. love the videos.. its all love. keep creating!

whoa graham looks really different now. didnt realize how long its been

I find myself using a looooooooooooooooooooot less plugins just by learning to choose the right (instruments, fx, song key...) and doing a good job at panning and leveling things professionally

When I bounce midi to audio I put all levels at 0 and center panned so I have good audio to work with, but during the course of recording I'll set levels and pans as I go just to get a rough idea of where things need to be. Then I archive and hide all midi tracks and begin to mix.

I use clip gain to get my tracks around to the so called sweet spot (I check my plugins recommended input level in the manual or even just use dbvu) and then use my faders to get a static mix and then a gain plugin on each channel at the end for level automation. I don’t think it’s a waste of time and not even a particularly big use of time.

recordingrevolution You've had excellent content over the years. Are you still planning on making additional videos or are you after this span of time, all "audio-ed out?" Either way, cheers.

All fully agreed. I fell into that gain staging black hole for awhile and after never hearing any audible results from anything I did I just abandoned the entire subject.

Nicely explained. I doubt any "consumer" stops and thinks "Maaaaaaaaan! I wonder what kind of compressor they used?" etc........

I agree that the "set everything to -18 db" is a waste of time. Some instruments need to be -30 db. Why would you want to set it 12 db louder than it needs to be when you're just going to turn it down later? That said, one thing I would say is helpful is to start with your loudest instrument and set THAT to a reasonable level. Let's say it's your snare or kick. If you start with that at -6 db, you're going to run out of headroom very fast. But if you start with it at -12 db and build the track around it, everything else will be at a reasonable level. I picked -12 db randomly, so don't take that as gospel. It really depends on how much louder I want the kick than the rest of the music, what genre it is, and how many instruments I'm working with. I also pay attention the level I'm feeding into my plugins. I'm not saying you need to follow the manufacturer's suggestions. If you like the way it sounds, who cares? But I want to be aware if I'm "overloading" a plugin, and I want to be doing it for a reason. But obsessing over -18 or -12 is silly. Beyond that, I don't worry about it. In the digital realm, you can back off signal at any point in the process. If your whole mix is too hot going into the stereo output, just grab all your instrument busses and turn them down by 2db. Readjust your master bus plugins so they're behaving the same as they were before your level adjustment, and voila. (It also helps if you always have your sends set to pre-fader.)

I’ve tried all the internet fad techniques and I’ve got a theory about them, (because you all care and asked.) You’ve got real-world engineers who develop practices for real-world reasons, who begin teaching on KZread. Then, you have aspiring engineers with little to no real-world experience and a drive to share knowledge or be content creators, who take those practices they learn on KZread and try to recapitulate them, but in the process, it can lose its actual initial attachment to reality, and it just becomes a barrier instead of an aid. I appreciate Joe puts so much effort into keeping the main things the main things.

I start at negative 18 in and out of plug ins so they are all getting the proper input to function the best the plug in can and don't have to worry about clipping. It's cake tho. It takes no time at all with a vu meter. Put a vu meter 1st then slide it down to open up the slotI keep after I add a plug in. I just slide the vu meter down a slot and make sure I keep it around negative 18. Then I put it on my group bus first then slide it down a slot then slip my plug in in the slot it was in. Some time I'll just do the volume check once I get it set at the start to AROUND negative 18. The bypass back and forth and match the volume. Quickly I don't agonize over it . I probably spend 10 seconds checking it and adjusting it. Always leaves me headroom and I've never had a problem with clipping. I put a vu meter in the last insert slot and start with no plug ins getting my level to -18 then check it after each plug in and adjust it quickly to get back to -18. I don't know if that's the right way but it's always worked for me. I should point out I mostly only record and process vocals. Always great content Joe.

That's why you mix AFTER gain staging to locate optimal and final levels. If you recorded a song with only a shaker, then the shaker would be at it's optimum level-if that's what you really wanted. Gain staging is a starting point, not the end point.

I'm totally down with trying something different - after all, I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to mixing. I followed one of Graham Cochrane's mixing videos and if a track had a signal he thought was too hot, he turned the trim down. And if he came across one he thought was too soft, he turned the trim up. He did that for all the tracks "before" doing the static mix. I don't know what normalizing is, LOL, but Graham and others tried to have all the tracks around -18db to -12db, excluding things like shakers or hi-hats. Anyway, yours is a different approach and I'm going to give it a try. By the way, the only thing I record outside the box is my sax, so I feel like I'm making this much more difficult than need be.

Joe, I have a quick question. Do your recording sessions transition into mixing sessions, or are they two separate sessions? When I watch your videos about mixing, you typically import audio tracks to get started. Those audio tracks are normally already well-processed and then you just tweak them to get to the end result. Thanks for all you do, I've been learning a lot! 🙂

@recordingrevolution

Жыл бұрын

Nah I transition over, mixing a little bit as I go

I mix to get elements to sound their best (proper density) in the context of the mix/program material.

Would this apply to vocals being mixed to a two track beat? Does the beat have to be at the same level of the vocals that is normalized?

Gain staging is a technical process that helps you feed the correct gain into your gear - be it hardware or plugin. It's mostly something that goes on in recording and mix prep and it has nothing to do with creative decisions during mixing or mix balance. That's how tech people back in the day got to that +4dBu (0dB VU) mark, it's the place that still gives you enough headroom to accommodate transient heavy material without clipping and keeps you away from the noise floor. The +4dBu is still a standard professional line level in every studio in the world and it will not "make" your mix, but it can certainly "break' it. My 0.2c

i use gainstaging for ride my faders near to 0, or unit level, but i dont waste so much time in details. Also try to don't saturate so much my plugings and is much easier to compress some stuff. But i insist, i don't waste so much time making gainstaging !!!

I was under the impression that gain staging was about not overloading individual channels or busses in your virtual mixer and preserving headroom. What most musicians and mixers don't know is that most music software is written to use 32 bit floating point processing. What that means is within your virtual mixer if it overloads the software just moves the decimal point, headroom in the box is not an issue. Such processing is almost impossible to overload EXCEPT at the master bus output. It makes mixing difficult if all your channels are in the red, so I don't recommend that but you don't have to obsess over a peaks.

You've just demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of audio, well done. The whole reason for gain staging is to treat every channel as it's own line in a system that operates at "line level" i.e. 0dBu We want each signal to max out at 0dB VU (this is not peak) and depending on how you calibrate your system this will give you 18-24dB of headroom for peaks. Then when you gain stage properly, you know which tracks need compression to restrict the dynamic range enough to reach 0VU without clipping. Measuring your VU level also lets you know where to set the threshold on your compressors. It's called audio "engineering" for a reason. Use the tools available to measure, then act.

I think the only approach is to realize that you are gain staging in every mix and to learn how that affects how you process tracks, how you utilize plugins and how gain staging can free or limit what you do in you mixing/mastering.

To me gain staging is merely optimising the level for the next processor in the chain. Therefore, putting a level adjustment device (such as a utility plugin in ableton, if your working ITB) achieves this. Personally I think the concept of gain staging has become overly complex when speaking to a largely digital audience.

I always thought gainstaging was setting input and output levels of plugins, to avoid clipping or undersaturation.

Gain staging isn't about levelling recorded tracks with other recorded tracks. It's about maximizing the power on your channel that you get from the instrument or microphone. To set the channel gain, first turn it all the way down. Set the channel's and master faders to the unity. Now turn up the gain as high as necessary while playing until you see the channel's VU meter indicates your average desired level, around -18db in most cases. For a mic input use your voice or use the line level instrument at the same volume it would be used normally. This insures that you have, in fact, taken as much power from the microphone or instrument as possible before using amplification from another part of your mixer. After you gain stage the channels individually, you're ready to mix them together to a stereo track, using your ears, (your most important instrument), to around -6db, then import that stereo track to a new project to master it. The gain staging of individual channels is also valuable for live music setups as well. Getting the channels mixed together well is about 90% of a good mix, get it right :)

@recordingrevolution

Жыл бұрын

I'm not sure what "maximizing the power" means. The shaker track in my song doesn't need to have the same amount of "power" as the snare drum or lead vocal.

@bobdemers2398

Жыл бұрын

@@recordingrevolution "The shaker track in my song doesn't need to have the same amount of "power"", right but the channel that it is on does.

More shaker! 🔊🎚️🎶🥚🎶🎚️🔊

Gain staging is not about mixing per say it starts at the recording stage. 1. Recording your tracks at a level that doesn't add extra noise or clip, NOT overdriving Pre amp unless that is the sound you are going for but then bringing the preamp output down so that you are not overdriving the compressor or EQ that is next in the chain or lastly the Digital converter which is looking for a level average around -20 or - 18dbvu. 2. Once recorded the level of each track should be around +4dvu = 0db = -20 or - 18dbv >>>>> with out peaks over about -12 dbfs. If it isn't use clip gain to adjust. Keep in mind recorded tracks sound the way they sound no matter the change in clip gain level so get the sound in the initial recording. If you are using analog style / modeled plugins the clip recorded volume is important because the plugins work best at a certain input level just like Pro analog gear is looking for +4 dbu unless you are aiming to abuse it for some saturation. >> DO THE SAME FOR PLUGINS making sure you are not internally clipping them or clipping the input of the next plugin in the chain. If the chain is bypassed the signal should not have a perceived increase or decrease in volume but should only change in tone or character biased on how you processed it. WHAT IS ONE REASON, besides clipping, IS THIS IMPORTIANT, .......... Because LOUDER IS ALWAYS BETTER and with out gain staging our processing may sound terrible but if it is louder we may perceive that as (a change) but not really hear what we are doing to the signal. THIS NOT MIXING "PER SAY" It is a process you consider and manage while you are mixing. This process also helps, when done right, keeps your master buss from clipping.

@recordingrevolution

Жыл бұрын

I hear you. I just think all the focus on hitting specific dB levels isn't very musical or fun.

@Shawneverette

Жыл бұрын

@recordingrevolution Cool. I have found it just makes things easier down the road when I'm mixing. I can hear what the plugins are doing and tend to use less if them because I am stacking them to fix bad moves back in the chain. Of course, it is what works for the individual. Cool video bro.

Gain Staging (structure) = adjusting gain relationship between devices (stages) that the input matches the output. Simple.

To me I have always considered gain staging to be done to the signal in the way into the track , getting a good signal without clipping and not too soft signal So when it comes to the mixing and mastering you don't have to play the db war

Hmm..., in my perspective gain-staging and levels are two different things. Gain staging (ITB) is to feed an optimal signal to your plugin chain / channel strip so the plugins or channel strip sounds better and they don't produce any kind of clipping or distortion that disturb the overall mix. Now, levels, once you done with the gain staging, pull down all the faders and gently pull them up one by one according to your ears (i.e whats needs to be loud or whats needs to be quite in the mix), that's it.

@recordingrevolution

Жыл бұрын

Yeah that just feels unnecessary to me. Most plugins have input and output controls, so if I find one that needs a little more or less gain, I can do that, but adding a whole step to arbitrarily set levels for everything feels like a waste of time.

@ajayshah4724

Жыл бұрын

​@@recordingrevolution Certainly, but I would not say that complete waste of time as an audio engineer. In general, every audio engineer learns audio engineering in their own way, you gotta start from somewhere and reach to point where you can say these are things I was doing wrong. No matter how much experience or legendary audio engineer a person is, he can teach you tips, tricks, techniques, advanced techniques, etc., but he can't share or give you his own instincts about how he perceives the sound, also how his mind tells him to what to do when certain sound falls on you his ear. You have to build your own instincts, and the only way to do it is, to learn, practice, and experience.

i agree that the static mix is very important, it will feed you and clothe you, you will need very little automation, a lot less processing, but that's not what gain staging is. gain staging is setting the input volume of your tracks, with a view to the processing, not the output volume - and then, cascading down, the input level through all processors down the chain. all hardware, and hardware emulating plugins have a sweet spot that you need to hit, to be able to work with the device/plugin properly, and for it to sound good. and the no plugin approach works when you record everything with hardware - "for real" - but when when all your guitar and bass amps are in the box, and your drums are a virtual drummer, too, you can't start with no plugins to do a mix, cause there's nothing there to mix. i have to start with a ton of plugins, before even going into the "mixing" phase, only to get my tones - amps, cabinets, pedals, coloring pres, and tape - that's just emulating the "recording" stage - and believe me when i say that the level at which you hit an amplifier - even virtual - makes a night and day difference - seems like a no brainer, right? i wish all interfaces had a unity gain setting on their pres, so that that problem be removed - what goes into the virtual amp (the level of the recorded d.i.) be the corresponding level to a guitar going straight into the amp, with no interface. that would simplify a lot of things. i wish you talked about that a little, and offered your experience. cheers!

@recordingrevolution

Жыл бұрын

YEah of course you leave the amp plugins on when doing a static mix.

@Tryggvasson

Жыл бұрын

@@recordingrevolution yeah, but the question i always ask myself is what level i should be hitting the amp at, to match unity gain. and should it be unity gain, or is it a different calibration, like the standard -18 dbfs? i wonder if you could speak about that. so far i've been doing it by ear, i like the timbre and oomppf, but it's hard to take out the mud.

I think Andrew Scheps says he doesnt gain stage either. I like Streaky's 6db trick. It's intuitive and easy.

Note to the guy sticking out in the choir: Just quit the choir and be an opera singer. Worked for me! 🙂 Thx Joe for this one.

@recordingrevolution

Жыл бұрын

😂 EXACTLY

I hate getting a bunch of tracks to mix that are all -18db because they don't understand the concept, they just heard buzzwords and a number.

Hi Joe, ok so this is where I'm so confused I'm doing a static mix "in mono" as recommended but I have hard panned guitars and overheads etc so as I'm in Mono the signal isn't as strong so like am I supposed to EQ/Compress to make my hard panned audio "audible? But then I've done this and it's then to loud in stereo? Would be awesome to understand this as the uncertainty is holding me back. Cheers Shaun UK

@shwunid

Жыл бұрын

Ps it's Grayhams fault but I'm an "avid" pro tools user lol I love it though

@christianmartinez1

Жыл бұрын

Shaun, I would check your phase relationship between your stereo channels that you are hard panning. It's known that if you have a stereo Left and Right that are out of phase with each other when collapsed to mono they will appear quieter because of comb filtering. I'd start looking there.

@shwunid

Жыл бұрын

@@christianmartinez1 thankyou buddy ok ummm so how do I check phase please? I basically use telecaster through AC30 panned left and Les Paul through JCM800 panned right then hi hat hard left Tom's panned LtoR etc Phase tbh sounds scary to me lol but thanks for the heads up and eager to not be "phased" by the the phase issue.thankyou for your reply dude 🎧🎵

I don't think anyone things "the shaker should be the same levels as the snare & vocal." The idea is to get the levels away from clipping as much as reasonably possible. Then within that gain structure, decide the bass should be at X level. The strings should be at level Y. I think you're rebutting an argument no one is making. I used to think all the Anti-gain staging arguments were so cool. "Hey, it's a bit of elbow grease I don't have to put in." Then I tried it for real. Whattya know, things improved audio-wise. Haven't heard a convincing counter-argument since, including just now ;-)

I don't gain stage any more, as long as I don't distort in the inputs, I am good.

I record at -18 so my levels start off the same anyway. Then I adjust them afterwards.

Can't you just use 2 gain plugins, one at the beginning of the FX chain set for analog level and then a gain plugin at the end of the chain to mix to the level you want it in the mix. Don't do it myself as I don't think the analog requirement makes that much difference

Tried it and didn’t like it. Gain staging is one of those things like a summing plugin, it can be helpful no doubt, just not really necessary.

Joe, after listening to this twice I believe you are talking more about balancing levels of tracks at fader stage. Gain is surely better understood as being about input trim, not output level. It’s about not overdriving the input of a track or buss or plug-in with too hot a signal. That’s where the caution needs to happen for a good mix. This video does not seem to address input level? I only hear you talking about balancing, and I think you mean outputs. Happy to be corrected by you, but I personally found this rather unhelpful and counter to my own experience in studying gain staging approaches on both analogue mixers and in using those principles inside DAWs. Again, I mean gainstaging as not overdriving any input stage in the process.

The concept of gain staging has been misunderstood completely in this yt video. Should the loan shaker be the same volume as the snare drum? Has nothing to do with gain staging. Gain staging is the process, which you already mention, of making sure what is fed into the analogue gear, comes in at a certain sweet spot for the gear to handle. What level you choose to have the shaker, after the processing - so long as is not going through more analogue gear, can be any level you want it to be. It baffles me why so many KZread videos on this subject, to miss this and don't grasp it. The thing which baffles me, is nobody moans or highlights the pointlessness of calibrating all the analogue gear with test tones, which we would do at the BBC or Abbey Road, with every piece of outboard gear, including all the calibration work with tape machines, yes gain-staging included, because it is all necessary and vital to achieving a mix which - ultimately becomes easier to mix. People wonder why they don't have 3d space and depth in a mix, they wonder why their mixes sound a little muffled, or squashed, they wonder why their mixes don't travel to other setups on playback, they wonder why they are stacking 8 compressors and 5 eq's just to get things to sit in the mix. The first thing they don't wonder about, is an obvious hidden secret, gain stage and level match and level balance, and you'll all be stunned at how much clearer, deeper, sonic and better your mix sounds, and that's before any eq or, panning and or other fx. Rant over.

Thank you I follow your teachings where other people sound like jibber jabbish vThanks Again

BUT when you start adding plugins, then you run into issues. SO if you're 'gainstaging' with the faders, the input signal into a(distortion) would be at a certain level lets say -10dB causing the signal to distort more than it would at -18dB. You make the argument for normalizing to -18db, the next step at that point is to start mixing without plugins.. SO essentially the first input stage is normalizing to-18db which anyone can do, then starting to mix with the faders.. You gave the EXACT method of gainstagingin the proper context to say the hell with it? BUT ... i totally see why.

Ah man. I disagree. Gain staging is not something to be obsessed over, but it is an actual thing. This vid is about mixing, not starting out with a track that has a workable level. I think this vid is very vague and just makes more confusion. I disagree that gain staging isn't a thing. It really is a thing, to a point. There is a pretty decent ballpark in the -12 area. I do -18 or so. You have to have a decent signal to start out with, and it is well known that plugins have a correlating sweet spot on the input. I'm sorry but when I started I researched this stuff and confusion is everywhere. You have to have your signal in the ballpark, that's what gainstaging is.

Most of the ppl who jumped on this video “hell yeah thank” couldn’t mix a cake let a long a song..I gain stage and my mixes sound great and getting the balance is even easier. To each their own tho. And when you peak normalize track to say-12db their highest peak is at -12db but they aren’t at the same level still. And you’d still balance afterwards, so this video really threw me way off.