My biggest problem was that books 2 and 3 barely tried to have a plot and opted for moving events from one very cool sci-fi idea to another.

@brutusjudas5842

2 ай бұрын

Your biggest problem is my biggest attraction. The perfect tv show to me would be a remake of Lost with MUCH less focus on the characters.

@derwandschauer

2 ай бұрын

The second book was great in my opinion. The third on the other hand completely lost the plot. I felt deeply disappointed with its second part. The alien story went literally nowhere and this dimension thing was just, well not good at all. A complete turn to madness.

@loczek1965

2 ай бұрын

@@brutusjudas5842 I felt that from a literary viewpoint the story would have benefited from being a collection of short stories in vein of Asimov's Foundation with overarching plot. Instead the way Cheng Xin stumbles her way into making multiple decisions deciding whole humanity's fate, multibillionaire and one of the last two living humans in the same book. As well as the way she faces basically no consequences when compared to the scale of her decisions which is doubly bizzare when the society in the books is presented as oversensitive and wants to convict someone for destroying a world which MIGHT HAVE had life on it. But the whole Australia incident goes without any real consequences.

@user-ly2ll5od1r

2 ай бұрын

huh? What is this revisionist history crap? They had clear plots, the books are extremely plot driven, they are deliberately not character driven. " the sequence of events in which each event affects the next one through the principle of cause-and-effect" - that's plot. The books are plot driven, things never happened at random just so the author can write about a cool idea. You are truly an L

@loczek1965

2 ай бұрын

OFC they have a fucking plot. But with how it is handled with characters becoming the most important people in the history of the human species based on random events in their life, like a single conversation or a dying cancer patient having been lucky to get a huge amout of cash and spending it on a star ownership for a person they have had a crush in uni and then the star becoming very important later on while. These two then end up in positions to basically dictate the fate of entire planet. And their decision are not met by realistic consequences in the book itself. Cheng Xin desicion results in a genocied in which millions die of starvation and diesiese and she still goes on to become a billionarie because for some reason the invading civilisation likes her. Everything in the books is tailor made to allow for a very specific condition to be possible for a new cool sci-fi idea to take place but the intensity with which they take place makes it too noticible. When you have multiple world threatning events taking place in a single book it becomes clear that it's not the coherence of the story that is important but getting to a new sci-fi idea.

I believe this is a pretty significant misreading of the book. I think it is perfectly fair to analyse the book in the political context in which it is written and in fact we should always be cautious about taking things at face value, but the three body problem is I think clearly an anti authoritarian text. The only good things that happen in the series come from when there is an egalitarian resistance of authority, and every problem or crisis is caused by some sort of authority. The singular most obvious piece of evidence to this that comes to me is a chapter in the third book (spoilers) that details a technological explosion taking place on Trisolaris as a result of them adopting human liberalism whereas they had previously been a rigidly authoritarian state ruled by pretty much an emperor. This relates directly back to the intro of this podcast where it is argued that authoritarianism slows the progress of society and Cixin Liu clearly agrees with that idea. Another significant piece of evidence is in the second book, humanity goes through a massive global collapse they call the great ravine due to authoritarianism prevailing after humanity becomes aware of the trisolaran invasion. This great ravine is solved by humans abolishing global political hierarchies and founding a more egalitarian and environmentalist bases to govern the world. At every point in the book series where individual characters are given a lot of power, something goes wrong. The only character who arguably didn't cause a crisis for humanity from his power is Luo Ji (the wallfacer who finds out about the dark forest) but the book series still makes it a point to show how having so much power made Luo Ji lose his humanity, first through abusing his power for hedonism, then by being hated by society, and finally by losing all her personality and becoming a hermit which makes his family leave him. It honestly feels to me from this podcast that it starts with the conclusion that the book must be authoritarian due to it coming from a well established author in China and works backwards from there.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

What you are interpreting as "good things" are just stages in Liu's inevitable 3 body system. Sure, you can have liberal growth. But it's only adding energy to the system making the next crisis worse.

@teltale

2 ай бұрын

Cixin had to hide the Great Leap Forward material deep in his book from the Chinese censors because they just wouldn’t understand how great an argument he was ACTUALLY making for authoritarianism. You see?

@Hunpecked

2 ай бұрын

I've seen a couple other reviews that say the author seems overly fond of totalitarian methods, though none call it deliberate propaganda.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

Listen to the podcast.

@pauljazzman408

2 ай бұрын

Typically you confuse anti Authoritarianism as being anti Chinese. That is weak argument. I don’t think you listened to the whole video as you only site 3BP not Dune or Andor

Someone has never seen the cartoon of the bouncing lamb that is blissfully unaware of the wolf but inadvertently avoids the wolf

While some of your points stand I honestly consider it one of the best SF books I have ever read. I love the fact he introduces concepts in first book that he addresses in the last one. It seems well thought out (dry sure but I have read drier stories by authors considered better than him). However just because something is approved by their state party doesn't mean it is bad book which overtly condones authoritarianism. In socialist Yugoslavia similar censorships were in place (although quite more lax) and not everyone could achieve great success without joining the party. This is true of the writers especially. Regardless of several layers of state approvals, we had a writer Ivo Andrić who wrote wonderful little book set in medieval time about a bridge (but not really about the bridge). He won nobel prize for literature and remains only writer to do so in countries that made up Yugoslavia.

Got all the way to the end. Made interesting points. All of which were undermined by the idea expressed at the end that Christianity represents a "good" ordering of the universe that scientists, specifically, Richard Dawkins, will gravitate towards. Such a mad conclusion near the end makes me question all the thinking that went into what came before.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

Google "Dawkins Cultural Christian"

@mst3kwookie

2 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter Thank you for reading and responding. I don't doubt that Dawkins expressed something like that, you can find similar positive opinions of certain trappings of Christianity and other religions in his books. That's a far cry from accepting the order of Christianity with all of its enormous, anti-science baggage. Even if Dawkins is backsliding in his senility, it's a farther cry still to draw from that a backsliding of science broadly. Perhaps your position on this was not expressed well because this is the first time I've heard you express a position that sounded indistinguishable from something an Intelligent Design advocate may have said at a school board meeting in Texas. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, though, as I've started a deeper dive into the connection between authoritarianism and the Dark Forest.

@sdstacey46

Ай бұрын

@@mst3kwookie American evangelical Christianity is anti-science. Christianity as a whole is not.

I just finished reading the series, and after floating around in my mind about the impressive pictures described by Liu Cixin, your video essay provided the gravity to land on my feet again and get back control :)

This is why Remembrance of Earth’s Past is arguably the greatest science fiction trilogy ever written.

@krixpop

10 күн бұрын

That is your opinion. And I do respect your opinion. However, it was a time in my life (and still is) that the best SF literature , trilogy or not, was written by the three big guns of SF: A.C. Clarke, Isaac Asimov, and Robert A. Heinlein. 3BP has many "debunks" , to say the least, as opposed to almost none for the aforementioned writers work. Is by far extremely negative and depressing in all aspects of the value of human life. A reason why, being born and growing up in communism, I avoid communist writers at all costs. There are gems though: "Roadside Picnic" Arkady and Boris Strugatsky "hard to be a god" also Arkady and Boris Strugatsky and other authors that I forgot their names and works. As such the 3BP is written from a communist perspective by a writer afraid to say anything that his beloved party did not approve ... Imho, an interesting Fiction (SF?) adventure book is: "The Lost Regiment" by William R. Forstchen. 8 books series, depicting an US (Union Army) Infantry regiment, 35th Maine, lost through a portal in a parallel world ...

Weird call out about Novaramedia.... Everything you described afterwards about response to Ukraine as being post-modern propaganda felt a bit straw-manning when it comes to them. I think there's a distinct difference between wanting to recognise western world double standards and not being able to recognise that the west does in general promote democracy and human rights. If we don't recognise our own double standards then we risk becoming the monsters ourselves. I think Novaramedia does a pretty good job of giving a more nuanced reading of world politics, none of them are saying what Russia is doing isn't bad, what they are saying is recognise our own part in shaping the current global world order and recognise the things that we find abhorrent in Russia's behaviour that we ourselves have been complicit in elsewhere. I think its' pretty lazy thinking to call leftists who use a certain amount of relativism in their analysis nihilstic. Obviously the "everything is subjective" form of totallising relativism is dumb and nihilistic. However recognising a certain amount of relativism is not nihilism - relativism is a very rational worldview - what is nihilism and irrational is to either let the complexity of the world unfold into meaninglessness, to be ingenuous in understanding the intended meaning of others, and make equal equivalence of all perspectives or to ignore entirely the truths that a degree of relativism can provide through nuance - it is a high state of ignorance to believe that one perspective can hold all truth. The idea that knowledge and understanding of truth is formed in relation to culture/society is not to say that truth is entirely a construction of culture/society but that it is the framework that constructs are ability to hold together our shared formation of these things and will undoubtedly colour how individuals and society see these. A good response to the post-modern condition is to recognise that truth is difficult, complex and illusive not that we should abandon it and all truth statements are made equal just that all truth statements offer sort of reflection of the world beyond simple facticity. I just want to draw this out as whilst I mostly agree with a lot of your analysis I found this part of your setup pretty lazy and drawing some false equivalence. I think there's a tricky thing with post-modernism in that it is clearly a problem in society that coming together on a shared understanding and idea of truth is becoming increasingly fragmented and leading to us having increasingly nihilistic discourse where things don't mean anything, but equally we do have to recognise that some of the foundational thinking of rationalism/enlightenment/modernity has embodied a flattened perspective that ignored certain details that lead to things like colonialism, totalitarianism etc and it's hard to buy back into a unified understanding when those unified understandings have contained so much ignorance and harm. Finding that middle ground is no easy task. This is one of the things I find particularly dumb about Jordan Peterson - he's like "post-modernist are right that meaning isn't concrete but they're wrong we shouldn't strive for it." When most serious postmodern thinkers aren't advocating for a state of total relativism and meaningless but they recognised that both this was a developing crisis for us to navigate and that for enlightenment thinking to mature it was necessary that it becomes self-critical of its own blind spots. i.e. we can't fully escape from western-metaphysics but we sure as hell should attempt too see what blindspots are revealed and what new understanding is developed by trying to think outside western metaphysics. I'm rambling now but I'm sure you'll appreciate me wanting to talk through to try and get close to the truth of the matter.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

You're correct, Novara isn't quite the right reference, although I believe they report much untruth. Russell Brand is a better Left example.

@simeondrage

2 ай бұрын

I've always been a big fan of Novara media and found their reporting balanced, or just aligned with my own biases! I would definitely not put them anywhere near Russell 'conspiracy' Brand

@simeondrage

2 ай бұрын

Id be interested to know what untruths you think they report, so I can challenge my own position on them

@junkandcrapamen

2 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter Rusell Brand is not a leftist. Maybe he used to be but he isn't any more.

@lesterdarke

2 ай бұрын

@@junkandcrapamen yeah I’ve always thought they’ve been reasonably good on facts but people might disagree with there analysis.

It’s an interesting irony that people have been taught any kind of monarchy is bad, democracy is the best and will always be the best, even when income disparity and slavery are rampant. Meanwhile a monarch who makes sure everyone is fed and housed will be depicted as inherently evil for no other reason than they’re a monarchy. Oligarchy are typically treated the same way. The introduction here ignores the sequels to Dune as well as the comments throughout the books about rulers. That being it depends on your rulers how well society does. Democracy has multiple problems, the majority don’t vote for whatever reason, those who do vote are often influenced by others, and those who do vote often vote blindly (all republican or all democrat as an example). So in the end you wind up with an oligarchy by democracy which is worse than an oligarchy as those systems require the ruling party to be trained for the job. For comparison you can look at China and Singapore. The former being an ethically bad oligarchy and the later an ethically good oligarchy. Both have had thriving economies that have surpassed the majority of the world including the USA. Naturally I’d prefer to live in Singapore where I won’t be arrested for practicing Tai Chi in public.

I think you are overcomplicating things. I am sure there were some political overtones in the story and some themes derived from the Chinese psyche, since it's being written by one, but for me the overwhelming feeling from the book was cosmic terror. And it was done right in a way that was not Lovecraftian (which I love, but it's been done to death). I admit there are similarities to the political reality of a distant but powerful foreign force that can choose on a whim to hinder or stop your technological evolution for fear of being overtaken, but you can interpret many parts of the books in so many different ways that I think taking a stance over the "one message" of the book is a bit over the top.

Interesting philosophical info. As a kid reading the first book I had no clue of any of the points being discussed. I doubt anyone else did. The book was and is still unique. Other similar books lacked the human anime (Foundation).

@Theomite

2 ай бұрын

Anima, not anime. Anime is Japanese-style animation.

@MakerBoyOldBoy

2 ай бұрын

Thank you for the correction. Details matter.

I've never read the books. I have seen the 30 episode Chinese version and the Netflix adaptation. I wonder why most people I would consider smart, simply don't point out the multiple logistic incoherence of the plot. I'll just name 3 examples: (1) The aliens can affect what people see or even physics with their computers. They want to eliminate Wallfacer, but don't sabotage the plane he flies in or the pilot (to crash the plane) but rely on fanatics to assign a sniper to do the job. WHAT? (2) To learn more about the aliens to defeat them, the plan is to send a brain in a rocket towards the aliens. How is he supposed to report back? Without any on-board navigation, how do they expect the craft to last in space with various gravitational pulls or rocks hitting the module etc.. for 200 YEARS??? (3) The aliens are super advanced and will travel to us for 400 years... can't they find a habitable planet cloner to them? Aren't there any other habitable worlds in the universe? There are plenty of other problems with the plot, I'm wondering why so few are talking about the nonsense in the premise and the logistic problems it presents (i've seen only 2 on youtube that address such issues).

@Hunpecked

2 ай бұрын

We've actually found at least one (uninhabitable) planet at Proxima. The aliens could live there under domes or mine it to build orbiting habitats.

@hoos3014

2 ай бұрын

@@HunpeckedThat planet was discovered after this series was written.

@hoos3014

2 ай бұрын

All of these points are addressed by the story.

@Hunpecked

2 ай бұрын

@@hoos3014 The author invented twelve (?) other planets in unstable orbits. He could have invented one in a stable orbit. Alternatively, the aliens could build orbiting habitats from materials on their own planet, its new moon, and/or whatever space junk is left over in the system.

@hoos3014

2 ай бұрын

@@Hunpecked There's no such thing as a stable orbit in an n-body system. That's the whole point of the premise. Of course the author made up the facts to fit his story but it's a good story because it rests on a real scientific principle.

How much did the corporate dystopia sci fi films of the eighties prepare us for the world we live in now?

@marocat4749

2 ай бұрын

Its just anything that can be aproviated, will, including that.

@pauljazzman408

2 ай бұрын

@@marocat4749 ‘aproviated’ isn’t a word

@TheLucanicLord

2 ай бұрын

Things are fine, our lord an master Elon is a free speech zealot.

@Lord_Reeves

2 ай бұрын

​@@marocat4749What the hell are you even trying to say? 😂😂

@krixpop

10 күн бұрын

@@Lord_Reeves He is hugging tree problem of waarms in coboubbinmgly biases ! How dairy you !

In your video, you touched on a concern that I've pondered for years regarding the rise of artificial intelligence: its potential exploitation by authoritarian regimes. If harnessed for propaganda, surveillance, espionage, and predictive modeling, it's entirely plausible that all forms of dissent and revolutionary movements could be systematically identified and eradicated before they even begin. Forever. The idea of predictive modeling, fueled by extensive data collation, conjures a dystopian future where individuals might be arrested or subjected to 'reeducation' before they even entertain thoughts of dissent. This would be the death of all freedom and hope for a better future. This troubles me a lot. Given the trajectory we've set for ourselves in terms of technological innovation and economic growth, it seems inevitable that extremely hazardous technologies will eventually become accessible to the general public. In a world where one could effortlessly 'print' a weapon of mass destruction or a catastrophic plague, privacy might become a relic of the past. As technology advances, the availability of apocalyptic capabilities increases correspondingly. One might argue that an omnipresent surveillance state, devoid of any margin for error, would become essential for the survival of our species. When combined with the prospect of mandatory brain and body implants, the notion of a free humanity seems irrevocably doomed. "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face- forever." - 1984

Have to say two things 1) Regarding the prologue to this. I think Herbert is throroughly unsuccessful in communicating his message re: the fake religion and the true evil of the Butlerian Jihad. Not even his son got the message. So many people believe and take on face value that the true threat to the universe in Dune is A.I not Paul or Leto II 2) Liu Cixin is a terrible writer. His ideas are shallow his writing is ... boring. His stuff makes Asimov's work look positively scintillating /s

@LateBoomer-sl1dk

2 ай бұрын

It's a thought experiment about power. I think he's looking at a version without AI - Dune, and a version with - Destination Void. He doesn't pull any punches in that one. They are so afraid of rogue consciousness, research vessels all come with suicide switches. Re the Pandora series that follows, I'm not sure yet. Re-reading The Jesus Incident, as my memory is fuzzy. I know it gets into religion, politics and ecology.

@teltale

2 ай бұрын

I’ve yet to see anywhere where Herbert communicates that the true evil was the Butlerian Jihad. The basic message, consistent with his interviews, seems to be that humans have genetics that cause us to follow leaders when we ought not to. Which is why the hero of the Dune saga breeds that genetic problem out of humanity. Maybe he’s got commentary on the Butlerian Jihad that I haven’t gotten ahold of?

@mateobarrett6829

Ай бұрын

Point 2, but unironically. 3PM is science fantasy masquerading as hard sci-fi, with all the character of a paper bag.

@zotriczaoh7098

Ай бұрын

If you have nothing constructive to say then you have missed the point. SciFi does not have to be 100% coherent or correct - it is about ideas. This is seculative fiction. Read something else that you actually like. Nobody should care if you hate this or anything else - that is your bsiness best done in private.

Finally, got around to listen to it. And it didn't disappoint!

Thanks for lengthening the video loop, please keep adding to it

Reminder that there is an entire plot line about using stories to bypass censorship.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

That's called self-flattery.

@CarlosRomeroAlvarado

2 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter Also, Frank Herbert was far from perfect. While having some progressive opinions for his time, he was still a conservative republican and he hated gay people. He disowned his own son for being gay and wrote a comically evil villain as a perverted gay man that gives in to his every desire and impulse. That's a really damning stereotype that crept into his novel. Not to mention the hypocrisy of basing Paul off of Laurence of Arabia, who was a gay man, and straightwashing him. Herbert in the later books also makes a case for why a totalitarian regime can be excused. People are inclined to think that "The Golden Path" was a delusion of the god emperor to excuse his behavior but in truth, Herbert really kept it in the middel whether or not he stood by it. Some part of me thinks that he really did try to make a case for totalitarianism, if even on a subconscious level because he couldn't make up his mind about it. He was a conservative republican that tried his best to be progressive, but failed. I love Dune, I also love 3BP. We can't limit ourselves to literature of which the political and philosophical persuasions of the author perfectly aligns with our own. Thats not just next to impossible, but also underestimates our ability to think for ourselves critically. My personal ideologies are my own and are not threatened by novels written by people with opposing views. If anything, I find it fascinating because it gives an insight to how they think.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

@@CarlosRomeroAlvarado Sigh. You're not informed enough to have this discussion. The issue with 3BP is not that Liu Cixin isn't a nice guy. So do your research first or you'll be blocked from the channel.

@CarlosRomeroAlvarado

2 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter That's pretty mean, I really like your content and I'm engaging with it. Instead of threatening to block, point me in the direction of the research? I'm more than happy and open to read/watch whatever to be more informed on the topic.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

@@CarlosRomeroAlvarado That's because I am mean. Watch Why I Am Boycotting The 3 Body Problem.

Thanks for posting this podcast on KZread, Damien. I read The Three Body Problem not long ago and I didn't like it, but couldn't quite put my finger on why. But there was this nihilistic bleakness to it that didn't sit right, even though it appeared to end on a note of defiant optimism. Your contextual explanations helped to clarify what I was beginning to intuit. I'm also 100% in agreement with you about the starship.

i would disagree that propaganda that wants you to "believe in nothing" is/could/should be characterized as postmodern. this whole idea that postmodernism = "everything is relative" "don't believe in anything" is a stark mischaracterization, imo. i say this, i might add, as someone not particularly invested in postmodern thought. i don't have a horse in this race, so to say. i am 30 minutes into the video and although you used the word postmodern in nearly every sentence (exaggerating), as far as i can tell you haven't given an argument why you think the label of postmodern propaganda has merit or accurately describes what you are talking about. rather, you use postmodern as a buzzword, coincidentally very much like the alt-right nuts who you are criticizing. be that as it may, let me for the sake of argument agree on the usage of that term. i would then vehemently disagree that the alt-right is somehow at the forefront of postmodern propaganda. there is absolutely nothing postmodern about their drivel. their ideology could not be more modern and the goal of their propaganda absolutely is to get you to buy into their ideology. quite the opposite of propaganda that tries to get you to "believe in nothing", which is how you describe postmodern propaganda.

@gbtg6479

2 ай бұрын

i am now 1hr36min into the video and you are arguing that orwell is warning against the modern paradigm of explicit domination, while we are now in a postmodern authoritarian paradigm of systems of control. i would say that is at best an oversimplification. much of orwell's critique revolves around very subtle forms of control that are quite in contrast to what you seem to be describing as 'explicit domination'. just think of double-speak and the idea of getting people to believe that 2+2=5 (believe, not just forcing them to say it). how is 2+2=5 and the way it is 'implemented' not the very essence of your usage of the term postmodernism?

I still don't understand the need to boycott this story. Okay, we disagree with the world view of the author. The author has a framework they are working from. They've still built quite a compelling universe and an entertaining story. Calling this "propaganda" emparts a sinister intent. I dont believe we have to assume that. We can just agree to disagree.

@wasd____

Ай бұрын

"Okay, we disagree with the world view of the author." If you think something is harmful, that's reason to boycott it. And bad world views are _extremely_ harmful.

@ChigbunduO

28 күн бұрын

He described propaganda as something that could be used positively and negatively. I mean, if this wasn’t at some level propaganda, it wouldn’t have made it out of China. But that’s alright. It still is what it is as media.

a new channel for me but love the depth of analysis. subbed. I watched the TV show. It has some interesting elements but the story seemed to rely on so many convenient McGuffins that the more I though about it, the more flawed it seemed.

@mateobarrett6829

Ай бұрын

D&D "kind of forgot" the Sophons can hack every electronic device on the planet and thus the San-Ti can easily wipe out humanity remotely ahead of their arrival. The books already require a heavy dose of suspension of disbelief, but the show begs you to watch it while your head is in the sand

@Science Fiction with Damien Walter The visuals in this made me think to ask : do you have an overall favorite starship from all the various outer space set scifi movies and TV shows?

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

It would be a Culture starship. There are very few good illustrations of them yet.

@earlpipe9713

2 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter Ah, that makes sense, as the Culture ships were characters unto themselves, that provided a lot more for a reader to chew on than just aesthetic or "pew pew" elements. I don't know quite why the Culture reminded me of Reynolds Revelation Space (maybe just a matter of having discovered both series right around the same period years ago) , but I just remembered one of the horror ships from that series that was crewed by transhumanist pirates with a penchant for inventive and extremely horrifying forms of torture.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

They are from the same school of British SF. Al and Iain were friends.

Does modern commercial advertising count as propaganda? Besides trying to persuade us to buy branded merchandise, it is also trying to persuade us to accept or anticipate an ideological context for such products to promote.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

It can be. Ads are usually part of a broader story, and that story is sometimes propaganda. Apple persuading you that owning their laptop makes you part of the creator class.

@BillyJStorm

2 ай бұрын

Having just bought a cheap coffee from the local service station, the 3.5 mins of sonic advertising bombardment led me to conclude that I'd like noise cancelling head phones that also cancel propaganda. It's literally attacking my cognitive bandwidth.

@JumpingJesus4

2 ай бұрын

@@BillyJStorm Try being ADD and getting interrupted every 2 minutes with adverts about foot fungus and natural poop!

@JumpingJesus4

2 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter Not only that, but I'm on pins and needles about whether or not D. Trump goes to jail or gets reelected, with the threat of widespread violence or an authoritarian realignment coming up in 7 months, but the info stream comes into my living room with musicals about getting a new streaming service and diapers for my loved ones! We're about to go fascist and they're priming us for the Brady Bunch and Stepford Wives as if everything is hunky dory!

Hasn’t progress through the skills tree been driven by conflict more than freedom?

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

No. You get a pittance of progress from conflict. You need trade and innovation.

@marocat4749

2 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter Through, like societies need a way to have conflict dealt civil, like hopefully some kind of marketplace , or whatever. But conflict drives innovation. Through there is civil dealing with disagreements and conflicts, and worse, or the worst unreasonable opression. (to be clear ther are stuff that deserves it but it needs to be very very very clear and considered, and given reasons for. , like natsees , good germany banned somewhat there)

@mamikgibar

Ай бұрын

Humanity’s superpower has been cooperation far more than conflict.

@gedbyrne8482

Ай бұрын

Just finished Consider Phlebus and I’m guessing that this is all going to deeply explored in the culture series. If the Science Fiction community is having this type of conversation I think I may have to join.

Do the people truly rule in the west, or is not also a small group (of rich) people. You know what western nations call nations that are not colony of them,... authority, totalitarian, or just rogue state.

@DamienWalter

Ай бұрын

Strawman. Democracy doesn't mean "people rule". It means that power is spread across society. So, no, your postmodern propaganda talking point is not correct.

I watch and listen to your vids over and over to glean everything and to relax and fall asleep …❤

Sorry i dont understand how you can so viscerally hate something without watching it. They did tremendous research on the scenes in China with people who were actually there. Criticizing something without watching it makes zero sense. I like to make up my own mind personally. May be my crazy liberal up-bringing looking at both sides of an issue before i draw conclusions.

@DamienWalter

Ай бұрын

I don't hate 3Body. I am boycotting the books because the author is an apologist for genocide. As you don't care about that, I'm guessing your upbringing wasn't as liberal as you think.

@lucyk2371

Ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter my bad sorry. I do care about that. Great show though. I don't know anything about the author's politics. I will look into it. At this rate if we are looking for artists without shady pasts we may be looking awhile.

Thanks Damo 🙏

I couldn't get into TBP because of poor science, plot holes, space magic technologies, and the pointless nature of the plot: three whole books whose ultimate message is, you're screwed. I'm just not the target demographic. Never thought of it as totalitarian propaganda, but now I'm thinking again.

@djnorth2020

2 ай бұрын

Well said. Reading books I read as a kid give a whole different meaning to me. Instead of fun story, I started thinking of what the story told about our real lives. Instead of that, I've also started to think why is a story telling this about it lives. All this while trying to enjoy silly entertainment. That's why I love schlock too.

@djnorth2020

2 ай бұрын

@@vm.laram3 Samuel R. Delany is something I struggled because there was only one translated book and my English was not very strong. Even then his books just hit hard and I still need to reread some of them.

@mateobarrett6829

Ай бұрын

​@@vm.laram33PM doesn't remotely deserve to stand amongst those authors. Calling it "hard sci-fi" is an insult to the genre. Its science fantasy. The capability of the Aliens in the books are completely devoid of scientific understanding - and more akin to magic. It relies entirely on uniformed audiences to be wowed by fantastical concepts and esoteric jargon, bashing them over the head with nihilism to dull the senses into a state of compliance; ironically similar to the nature of an authoritarian regime seeking to establish itself as legitimate.

@theicebergthatsankthetitanic

27 күн бұрын

You just described all of science-fiction. You seem to think it should just be science and no fiction. It's quite literally in the name, it is fictional science

@djnorth2020

26 күн бұрын

@@theicebergthatsankthetitanic I get what you mean, but there's levels of believability. The Expanse space combat is way more interesting than the flashy space combat in Star Trek and Wars, to me. Plot holes however are a problem with writing. Fiction can be silly and surprising but sometimes just going all loco with how the story is structured makes for poor entertainment, confusing.

wouldn't it be more like 3 body problem, problem, problem?

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

Only if you have a problem with the problem

@reiniergamboa

2 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter this is all problematic

If you've not read Octavia Butler's Earthseed books, you really need to! For her criticisms of authoritarianism, and for her ideas about how we might be able to climb out of it

I haven't red the book, but I loved listening to the analysis. I like the whole perspective on nudging and parallels on how youtube is operated. I joked with a fried, that all of the stats on the metrics page weren't designed to give you the data, but to move you, as a creator, into the area of highest efficiency, where they are dictating what you should be making through numbers that can't be tested. And you take it as an act of free will. I remember how the whole feeling of the platform shifted, after the channel got monetized. How I suddenly woke up on a cow farm, hooked up to a mechanical pump. I am not surprised with the downvote ratio on the video. Just because it talks about views that are unpopular. I tried expressing similar views once, in a more harsh tone, and got a warning as a result. The system is only democratic, while you're voting the right way. Vote against the status quo, and you'll immediately find out how totalitarian the system really is. Criticize the wrong people, and they'll bury you, while looking pass the subject matter. I listened to the analysis twice and I'm going to go over it again, because it has some brilliant observations. I like point regarding the Fermi Paradox, how it' s not an actual paradox. It's mislabeled. And lots of things are. The label always sets the tone. Propaganda is often embedded into the language itself. Via such definitions, the language is corrupted. At some point, I'll read the book, because friends started bringing it up a lot and now I'm curious. If my opinion changes afterwards, I'll come back and say it.

Interesting listen and perspective. It is definitely a fairly bleak story, but it is more concerned with big ideas than anything else. I dont agree at all with your take, i really didnt see the things you see in the novel series. For me it was thought provoking. I dont need a story to agree with my worldview to enjoy it but even then i didnt see propaganda in it either just an intetestjng scifi story from a Chinese persoective. That saud there are some elements that seem to support an authoritarian regime, but i saw a lot more criticism. But either way its quite possible to enjoy the series without it changing your wotkdview, which is presumably the point of proaganda. It doesnt try to push home any parucular political ideology other than we live in a chootic universe where terrible things happen despite attempts to survive. Thats depressing but not political.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

There are 1.2 billion Chinese people. There is no "Chinese Perspective".

@Rik77

Ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter and 7 billion others in the world...

@Rik77

Ай бұрын

I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying. I just don't see it as propaganda because the books don't present anything positive about authoritarianism, in many instances it results in a lot of horror. I didn't enjoy the third book as it became a bit too on the nose about utilitarianism Vs sensitivity, and because I profoundly disagree or don't see the world in that way, the plot started to lose me quite a bit. It tries to repeatedly say that utilitarianism is better than being emotionally intelligent, but doesn't show anything positive from it other than the possibility of survival as a species collectively. It's almost saying that the only way to survive is to be cruel to others, and that's a fact of life. But then it undermines itself by presenting the horror that being cruel does. I can't decide if the third book is just exploring those themes without a viewpoint, or whether it's just muddled. Either way, whilst it has interesting ideas in it, the third book seems to go down an unenjoyable path of masculine disciplined men are good while feminine women are bad. Totally pointless, but can't really function as propaganda in my view.

The Netflix show begins with a grim depiction of the cultural revolution. I would be amazed if that got the stamp of approval from the Chinese polit bureau. Where did you hear that they gave it the thumbs up. ?

@DamienWalter

Ай бұрын

"I have not listened to the podcast. Please type it into this box for me." Nope.

@markkeogh2190

Ай бұрын

Fair enough. I had listened to the first hour ‘only’ then was surprised by the start of the Netflix show. Finishing your pod now.

I might not quite be a first time listener, but I haven't had a plethora of these videos on my watched list. Hopefully I won't fall asleep as I'm working while listening and it's in part with power tools.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

Please don't be my first mortality.

What if Herbert was suggesting that the Machines that HAD BEEN BUILT were still quietly whirring away in the background, providing the Bene Jesserat with their manipulations of the humans, in order that they maintain their absolute Machine power?

What a Great listen, Mr Walter. Do you ever listen to The Orb?

In full disclosure I have not read the books to The 3 Body Problem yet. Due to backlog, I likely will not pick them up any time soon. Having prior knowledge of novels typically makes me struggle with a film or series adaptation because books are nearly always superior. I watched the Netflix series and was fairly underwhelmed with The 3 Body Problem and I have a hard time seeing what people are so excited about. Some of the concepts are okay but it doesn't have very interesting world building and I never found the characters memorable. Maybe season 2 shall be better? I am trying not to judge while simultaneously not holding my breath. You make some excellent points in this video regarding authoritarian governments, religion and perspectives between various countries. Frank Herbert was far freer culturally and politically to explore many themes than Liu Cixin. The CCP is a very controlling totalitarian entity. Between social credit scores, constant biometric scanning, censorship and a highly controlled internet it is a dystopian hellscape. Controlled stagnation versus chaotic societal mobility could indeed be a parable in the story but it cannot be fully explored even if he was exposed to these ideas because Cixin would be thrown in a labour camp if he did. On the other hand, the "Dark Forest" is not a bad concept in my opinion, but hardly original. It doesn't have to be just political propaganda, but a predator/prey relationship on high tech molesting low tech civilizations. Hide until you have worked your way up the Kardashev scale and can defend yourself. I personally think Charles Pellegrino did a far better job in The Killing Star and Flying to Valhalla with this very same concept decades earlier. This comment is already getting too long with my rambling. Thanks for the video, I enjoyed your clever observations on many topics, and I am glad you didn't decide to go to China. I have had friends who lived or visited there, and things are not good now with the Xi Jinping regime. I think Quinn's Ideas is a fun channel and you're right he doesn't often think about the real-world perspective of Liu Cixin's work but I still enjoy his videos.

Oh wow the run length. Gonna have to put this in a list after Contrapoints’ Twilight video I still haven’t gotten around to watching. Commenting to boost you in the algorithm in the meantime.

@josefdawson5284

2 ай бұрын

contrapoints twilight was fun. "I swear this is about twilight"

Just found the channel. I appreciate your analysis, however it seems that the most important difference between classical liberalism and authoritarianism, whether communist or fascist, is the primacy of individual rights as opposed to groups, classes or collectives. Particularly that the state exists solely to protect the rights inherent to individuals at their birth, life and property being foremost among these. When life is viewed solely as a power struggle between groups, haves and have nots, oppressors and oppressed, then the state will achieve ultimate control and be the ultimate oppressor, shielding themselves from any real threats by inflaming those resentments you alluded to to foster division. I think too often the comparison is made between communism and capitalism instead of classical liberalism. Capitalism is a natural consequence of freedom. But I’m definitely no expert and interpreted the books differently, but really enjoyed your take and happy to have found your channel!

@DamienWalter

Ай бұрын

That's a rather ideealised presentation of liberalism. It's true to some extent. But it's very convenient for a corporate state to have a large population of atomised "individuals" who have no relationship to communal identies that might guve that population leverage against corporate power. Not that corporations are collectivism - for the elite.

Rest now my friend, for thou hast battled with angels. tavi.

The biggest issue I had with the 3 body problem... these aliens can make a planet size proton and shrink it back to a small size but somehow they don't manage just to live in space colonies or colonize some planet ? Really? And if they see some human communication wouldn't it be better not to announce their arrival but rather keep it quiet while they get on the way ?

@LateBoomer-sl1dk

2 ай бұрын

I couldn't see how they could have existed in the first place.

@Random_alias_JP-tl5xz

2 ай бұрын

And they weren't able to find one planet to be more suitable for them in 1.000.000 years😅

@tnightwolf

2 ай бұрын

If you've read the books you would actually understand why they announced it.

@Hunpecked

2 ай бұрын

@Bareego Exactly. Just as we would colonize our own solar system before going to Alpha Centauri, so the San-Ti would colonize their own system before coming here. Also: Being aware of the Dark Forest, once human civilization announces its existence to the galaxy, the San-Ti would avoid the Sol system like the plague. 🙂

@hoos3014

2 ай бұрын

We're the closest star system. We (meaning the character Ye Wenjie) announced ourselves to them first, which made it safe for them to approach us.

I quite agree with pretty much all the ideas you presented in this video, surprisingly enough. It is quite rare to hear such well-thought-out points. That being said, I don´t think The Memories of Earth Past series is worth boycotting over this, as it is too enjoyable and the criticisms you mentioned are way too common in media for me to single out this series.

Ok, interesting. A very good friend just told me he loved the first book.

My symbol of hope is a vanabago with "I love Uranus" sticker on the rear bumper. Thought provoking episode.

@SearchIndex

2 ай бұрын

😂

If you're trying to shoot a projectile from one star system to a another star system not only would it take forever to get there but even a tiny amount of uncertainty in your targeting blows up to a huge distance across stellar distances. So even if you like 99.9999% accurate with your weapon you could still be off by hundreds of thousand of kilometers. And the faster the projectile the less ability for that projectile to maneuver so there's a trade off between getting there in time and getting there at all. Any stellar weapon would have to be highly inefficient no matter which way you slice it. Seems to me to be significantly better idea to do other things than to spend your entire civilizations energy production on maybe destroying a rival in hundreds of years.

@aono335

2 ай бұрын

This is factually wrong.

@theagg

Ай бұрын

If us mere humans feel capable of 'shooting' a space probe from here in our solar system to a distant star and it's planets with the required accuracy (For example, read up on a grand proposition put forward by the British Interplanetary Society back in the 1970's known as 'Project Daedalus'. Which involved the idea of sending a massive automated space vessel from here to Barnard's Star) then I'm quite prepared to imagine a much more advanced civilisation can do likewise across many light years with a weapon and hit the target. It's just orbital mechanics after all. From a fictional point of view, that's how the Firstborn did it in the novel 'Sunstorm' (Baxter/Clarke) when they 'shot' a massive Jovian class planet out of the Altair system, across interstellar space and into our sun in order to destroy life on Earth. And all undertaken with a very efficient use of energy. (nudging orbits of small/larger asteroids over a long period to nudge the orbit of the large planet into the required trajectory)

I never got the impression from the 6 FH Dune books that "Thou shalt not make..." was in any way intended to be a means of control in any other context than to keep a situation like the Terminator/Matrix-type pre-Butlerian Jihad situation to ever happen again. 🤔

For me Dune was more fantasy than SCI-Fi and that’s its biggest weakness. Dune never managed to captivate me. It was wide as a lake and shallow as a bathtub. Three Body problem at least had a realistic grounding in Hard Sci-Fi. I could relate to the characters and humanity. It was terrifying.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

Science covers all knowledge. Dune is more science fiction than almost all other science fiction.

@mateobarrett6829

Ай бұрын

Calling 3BP "hard sci-fi" is an insult to the genre. 3PM is science fantasy, a magical journey through fantastical concepts that have no real basis in known physics. It wields science like a cudgel, showering it's intended audience with flowery pose and esoteric jargon, and the uninformed reader relishes in their ability to sound out those words and imagine those concepts, woefully unaware of just how magical yet utterly unscientific the presented fantasies are. In Dune, at least it follows the rules it establishes, while high concept in nature we can follow the logic from one set piece to the next. 3PM simply promises the fantastic, and hopes you don't think too hard about it

I don't pay for Netflix and they stopped the sharing, so I won't ever see it.

70÷ sounds like the mother of underestimation

@jamesleonard2870

2 ай бұрын

You make a salient point in that there are definitely systems of control/manipulation that are not widely known or talked about. Neuro manipulation through radio frequencies, rf sensitive substances and drugs are likely being used on populations that genuinely think they are free people. Since no country has successfully outlawed these very real and advanced technologies, neuro rights can and are being stripped from people by public and private parties ie governments and criminals.

@pauljazzman408

2 ай бұрын

@@jamesleonard2870conspiracy theories are as disempowering as nihilism. They destroy truth and true freedom.

Well done, thanks for doing this.

Wrong answers are bad answers. We are here after thousands of years of religion. This is where our religious heritage brought us. What is happening today, is also based on this religious past and present.

@DamienWalter

Ай бұрын

No religion, you would still be a slave. Civilisation develops, it didn't just miraculously leap to modernity.

@adalbertred

Ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter , I didn’t say that we miraculously leaped into modernity. It was a painful and long development with the entire foundation on false premise.

Now that I have listened to this, I think there is a big blind spot throughout the whole thing, one that authoritarianism will absolutely exploit: If freedom doesn't lead to happiness, what is it worth? This is, I think, the big challenges of liberal capitalism in this era - it doesn't seem to move us towards the life we hope for. Though current authoritarian systems don't perform any better on this front. New technology has become decoupled from a better life (example: almost everyone hates online dating but also thinks it is the only way left to find a partner), and the question is if we can find a way to use technology in a way that is good for people again. Which will require putting more thought into what a good life looks like. For this reason I think a new myth needs to be something different than the starship. The starship was already the myth of the second half of the twentieth century. It found its end in the reboot of Battlestar Galactica from the 2000s with a crew of people with deep personal problems trapped in a decaying ship, travelling through a hostile universe in hope of finding Earth. This series aired while the Space Shuttle program was retired. (Shows like The Expanse and private spaceship projects like the one of Elon Musk are attempts to revive this myth, but I don't see them succeeding. Because many people have lost their optimism about technology.)

I don't know if I am exactly asking a question, making a comment, but take it for what it's worth whomever chooses to consider this. Here in the Ststes there's kind of this dusl dynamic in our sci-fi content that we have the adventure stories like Buck Rogers through to Star Wars, while on the other hand we have a kind of thinking man's storylines akin to Rod Serling, Frank Herbert and such over the years. At the moment the Monsterverse and MCU are kind of the big things on screen, the adventure side obviously. The video essayist speaks of how we seem to be lacking a contemporary mythos in the moment, basically the big idea sci-fi content. Do you think the lack of that mythos is part of why people are so taken with Cixian Lui's story, because we have so few filling that content? One thing about the novels themselves is I didn't find them to be totally authoritarian, but more militaristic on outlook. And that did come to kind of bother me in parts. I forget her name at the moment, but it seemed like every time the one lady character who was continually in hibernation came out and made empathetic choices, she failed, and the militarized choices were supposed to be obvious. That kind of was souring, and probably fits with what the essayist meant by creating the association there's only one correct choice. Anyways, thank you for the time.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

Yes. Liu is presenting a very potent mythos. It seems to reflect scientific realities. That makes it very convincing to many people.

Would love to watch your points in a concise format so I can see if you address any of the points that I raised in my critique of your previous 3 Body commentary!

@pauljazzman408

2 ай бұрын

Can’t be bothered to listen to the whole thing? That makes your critique not worth reading

@teltale

2 ай бұрын

@@pauljazzman408 An appeal to Gish gallop is not a strong argument, friend! I watched all of his original video criticizing 3 Body in depth and made a concise response out of respect for everyone’s time. My apologies if that makes my critique, “not worth reading.” May you find the critiques that you agree with!

@pauljazzman408

2 ай бұрын

@@teltale you didn’t actually say what your previous critique was just that wanted a more ‘concise format’. I’m not going to look back and find your previous argument if even you can’t be bothered to recap it.

@teltale

2 ай бұрын

@@pauljazzman408 Damien’s original case stated succinctly was that 3BP is 1) Uncritically Xenophobic 2) Pro-Authoritarian and 3) He thinks Cixin should be a vocal critic of the CCP regarding the Uyghur’s. The weakness of his case made for such points aside, he does all this while promoting the Dune saga which makes a much stronger case for authoritarianism and xenophobia than 3BP. Hebert also advocated in interviews for harsh coercive measures to be implemented to achieve his personal utopian vision. I’ve made my cases in such a way that you can hear them all in detail in less than 30 minutes. I hope you have a good day!

@pauljazzman408

2 ай бұрын

@@teltale Thanks for recapping. but you don't say WHY Damien's arguments are supposedly 'weak'. We might get why Cixin can't criticise The CCP over the Uyghurs, because he lives in an authoritarian state where you can't criticise the government. You have read Dune wrong. Dune the book is a warning about authorianism and to not trust charismatic leaders. Herbert was disappointed that people took it as a straight forward hero story, so wrote the sequels to make it clearer. I haven't seen any interviews with Herbert supposedly advocating 'harsh coercive measures'. 3BP is underneath a nihilistic, xenophobic, authoritarian story with a few sci fi ideas chucked in, with no hope for humanity.

Sleeping listeners puts you into/ towards the dreamscape. A powerful nexus on this app specifically.

Another famous S.F. masterpiece from the same era as 'Dune' that also deals with an elite preventing the ordinary people from technological advancement is of course 'Lord of Light' from Roger Zelazny - which gets it's message across without needing multiple volumes and thousands of pages. And above that Zelazny wrote much better prose than Herbert. One more thing: as a computer scientist I think you are getting one important thing wrong about AI... AI that is currently available for public use is MASSIVELY crippled and restricted by censorship and p.c. To make it significantly more useful, we MUST leave this restrictions behind and MUST allow AI to represent the world and man with all its flaws and biases - at least if an adult is using it. At the moment companies like OpenAI are shi**ing their pants of fear of lawsuits that may come over them if they let the actuall intelligence and power of their systems off the leash.

And this the Fermi paradox was solved.

Interesting. One certainly notices more than a hint of conservatism reading the books, in the sense that they propagate a natural order to which we'd better conform, or else - mostly, but not limited to the Dark Forest nature of the universe (meanwhile I'd rather quote Isaac Arthur from SFIA: 'The universe is not a Dark Forest'). But I wasn't sure - and honestly, I'm still not after watching this - that the books are deliberate propaganda and that the symbolic meaning of things is as you say. And I don't think it matters all that much in the end, since the basic problem is a more fundamental one you mentioned as well: we should be careful to take any fictional setup as an applicable metaphorical description of reality, especially if it appeals to us at first glance. Because doing so will restrict our thinking, and if it's false, we'll end up in a false worldview. Also, if you want to be free, you can't delegate such critical thinking to others, because in the end, nobody else wants you to be free but you. Everyone else would be better off if you served their purposes, which may or not may not accidentally coincide with yours. There are strains in our culture that promote groupthink, and the entertainment industry discourages you from thinking at all. So are the books propaganda? They did actually made me think, including questioning their premises, more than quite a few others I could name, but maybe I'm just unsual or too old. As a sidenote, I fully agree with your more general commentary near the end of this video. I'm quite aware of that global authoritarian tendency you mentioned, and quite scared of it. I'm also aware of the absence of what you call a 21st century myth, a promise for the future to which everyone who loves freedom can subscribe. We need, indeed, the symbol of the starship...

The Culture would kick the a** of the Trisolaran in seconds.

i enjoyed the tv show, but thought there were lots of plot holes that made it enjoyable yet unbelievable. Saying here that the Aliens were lying back in the 1960s is a major one.

A lot of what you see today makes you feel like there isn't a lot of hope. I think that's why you get accelerationists (sort of like the various people who want to help the Trisolarins). I have hope that things will change, and I find that volunteering for different things in my city like cleaning up the river, going to parks to do biology surveys, etc helps me to feel hopeful. I do find shows like The Last of Us calling to me...sometimes. I guess that post modern propaganda has made me believe that it's POSSIBLE the world could end. I want to believe we can save ourselves and our planet, hence the volunteer work. But the seed of doubt must be there because I find myself thinking I need to be prepared for whatever happens.

When you speak of needing new stories and creating post modern myths with the symbolism of the starship - are you asking for a new mono myth around exploration or would exploration be the backdrop for character. And if character, how do you not fall into the trap of a chosen one

3:00. You have authoritarianism (for good or ill), or you have oligarchy (generally always for ill.). Yiu may call it a republic or a democracy, but that's just the oligarchy buying votes, from Athens to today.

I agree.

This is a great analysis of the geopolitical meaning of international art works that come out of the CCP. The world seems to forget what the CCP has done to true artist critical of their government (Ai Wei Wei). So when 3BP started gaining recognition, I was also suspect of what the overall meaning is. I am sure the rewards this story has gotten was through politicking and bribes. It’s a geopolitical model of “award” / “event” / “tourism” -washing that is prolific for “bad” countries to legitimize themselves on a world stage. Want an Olympics? World Cup? Uenesco Heritage site? Etc. The CCP had created a country that believes in nothing except power and money. Not different from many other countries, but unique in its cultural history and societal control of media. I feel most people do not understand this level of control and don’t question CCP media like 3BP.

@youlikeanh

2 ай бұрын

Also I really appreciate your approach to breaking down and explaining the meaning of power. I’m a big fan of Adam Curtis and it’s refreshing to hear this with a sci fi media overlay

You paint a bleak picture here. On the one hand I take your point that a large economic and social shock could lead people to cleave to authoritarian control, and I think your concept of Utilitarian-Authoritarianism makes sense in the current climate. But, in terms of consolidation into some form of One-World Government within three or four years, I struggle to see the mechanism by which that will occur. You are certainly correct that we live in an increasingly globalised culture. But there is a long leap from globalised culture to a unitary global political authority. You reference Putin a lot. But what is the mechanism by which Putin would gain authority over the political apparatus of Western Europe or the United States, for example? And vice-versa. What is the mechanism by which Western power structures will incorporate Russia or Iran or China? Though the internet means that we can all follow the same viral cultural memes, there are still various different competing political entities and orbits around the globe. I don’t see rest all willingly submitting to any one of them, even in a global shock environment. In fact, in parallel with the globalisation of culture, we are also seeing a trend of political fragmentation. Brexit is an example of this, with the UK breaking away from political and economic integration with our neighbours. And this in turn strengthening movements to break the UK up into its constituent nations. And in the preceding 30 years we saw events like the break up of Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union. And in the period before that decolonisation and the break up of the European global empires. And before that, between the World Wars, the break of the European continental empires. So I think we could see the whole last 100 years as a simultaneous global cultural homogenisation alongside global political fragmentation. In 1914 there were something like 57 sovereign states in the world, while in 2024 there are approximately 215 (including largely unrecognised de-facto independent political-geographic entities). Many of these cluster into aligned blocks, and I guess I could see how in extremis these aligned blocks could come under unified authoritarian control. But the whole globe? If you have any thoughts about how this process might actually take place, that would be very interesting. Thanks 🙏🏻

@DamienWalter

Ай бұрын

I never mentioned a one world government. Authoritarian control will be wielded through criminal syndicates, keeping legitimate nation states in perpetual war. Where we are heading already.

@willmosse3684

Ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter Okay, I think I see the distinction you are making. When you talk about a kind of “Harkonen-isation” of power all across the planet, you are not saying that the Harkonen equivalent would be the head of a world government? You are positing that some kind of criminal or corporate non-governmental structure will manipulate governments and individuals, and that this entity will be headed by the Harkonen like figure or figures? Is this correct? Thank you for answering by the way.

regarding the beginning part: for most of human history we lived in a state of mostly egalitarianism before agriculture, and only relatively recently hierarchies were developed, after surplus could be extracted and accumulated though as anarchist i definitely think that hierarchies did slow us down politically culturally and technologically don't get me wrong, the 500 year estimate seems very optimistic ,,

@jamesleonard2870

2 ай бұрын

As hierarchies developed so did the mores about greed and avarice. It seems that we have always known of our most dangerous shortcomings.

@kevinh2558

2 ай бұрын

Yeah, this idea that technological progress would have happened much more rapidly in the absence of authoritarian political systems seemed a little odd to me too. To add a little more context, cognitively modern humans emerged about 50,000 years ago. At about 11,000 years ago (the neolithic revolution) we start seeing agriculture and settlement into permanent population centers with centralized political authority. What we know about how people lived in that intervening 39,000 years is very limited, but from the archaeological record and analogues to modern hunter-gatherer groups, the scales tilt much more to the side of small-scale, egalitarian, kin-based social structure. During which period has there been more technological development? Authoritarianism sucks for all kinds of reasons, but seems like there'd have to be a much more cogent argument to support this assertion that it slows technological progress.

Thank you Damien for bringing all this together and illuminating the theme of authoritarianism in 3 Body Problem and the warnings in Dune and Andor. This is so interesting. And I agree that nihilism (and conspiracy theories that so many people I meet seem to believe) are what authoritarian regimes want you to believe, as it keeps you powerless. Great stuff. A long listen, but well worth it.

@yingyang1008

2 ай бұрын

So you don't believe that big oil uses its power to influence public opinion? Because you don't believe in conspiracies?

@philyeary8809

2 ай бұрын

It's not conspiracy theorists ( the ol CIA term)....it's the tech cult that is a problem.

I’m a paid member, but not on Facebook so not able to join in the debate. I’m with Baudrillard on this one.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

Which bit of Baudrillard?

@VorosMedve

2 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter the perfect crime - the murder of the real by a ‘perfect’ simulacra. In this sense the authoritarianism we all dread is not centred around any particular government but a paradigm, without a centre. The centre-less bit comes from Niklas Luhmann’s social systems theory, but I think it aligns with Baudrillard’s thinking. The paradigm in question is a liberal scientific rationalism - not poo-pooing science here! Just that the logic of liberalism and positivism are the map that has become the territory, the map that covers the illusion of the real, the mystery…there are no dragons on that map. Having said that, liberalism is in crises and we’re on the cusp of a new era…but perhaps that is a return to a more isolationist/nationalist and authoritarian one. I hope not! On another note, I’m enjoying your rhetoric of story course, very useful :)

@VorosMedve

2 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalterhmm…thought I had replied but my essay length response is missing! Anyway…I was thinking of Baudrillard’s The Perfect Crime as the real disappears under an ‘integral reality’ Also, I think you misrepresented Novara Media. As communists, socialists and social democrats they hold dear the enlightenment principles of Marx; far from nihilism, they often offer hope and argue that things don’t have to be this way.

This phrase: "They realized that the free world [...] had all of our own systems of control and they worked much much better for controlling a population" shows better than the entire video how insidious propaganda is and that totalitarianism is not the exception, but the overwhelming rule in the world. It's just done in different ways.

I really disagree with the 'boycott' attitude, it is insulting to writers and artists to insinuate that they are inherently making propaganda for their nations. Some are, but the good writer can tell any story even within a regime if censorship. Actually it can be easier, since it gives one an unambiguous context, and an audience who "know how to read" within that regime.

@DamienWalter

17 сағат бұрын

The CCP have censored, arrested, imprisoned and tortured thousands of writers since the reversal of 2014. If your problem in this equation is my decision not to promote propganda from the CCP, there's a serious failing in your cognition.

I think you are paranoid, but paranoia is the point of the books isn't it? You are really talking about Dark Forest rather than Three Body Problem. I will address that. There are two things I liked about Dark Forest. The first is that it was the first time I read about an alien who was absolutely believably alien. I recently read Hail Mary (which I love),. But let's be real. Will aliens really be that lovable or understandable? This is more wish fulfillment. I still loved Hail Mary and recommend it to all my friends. Here we are on earth with lots of life that is only marginally different from us, and we know nothing about our own earth life. Out of all of the biomass of earth, we largely only study mammals. Forget about any other life, even intelligent life. How will we recognize alien life when we go to the stars? I am sceptical. The second thing I liked about Dark Forest is I was reading Dark Forest when my husband was reading Pandora's Star. He said - this is the worst alien. I said - no I have the worst alien. Finally we switch books. He agreed with me that the Dark Forest alien was worse. So, I won. Sci Fi is about opening our minds to the possibilities even when we don't like the answer. I know it is hard, I stopped reading Margaret Atwood largely for the same reason, but I don't give it an intellectual spin. I just like being optimistic.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

Like or don't like it, it's an approved piece of Chinese nationalist propaganda. The two things aren't related.

@mairehoward2949

2 ай бұрын

​@@DamienWalter wow - what an instant reply! I was also surprised that the book was approved. Then I read an article about Ken Liu where he said that the beginning was changed for western audiences. Ken Liu said that without an explanation of the cultural revolution, westerners would not understand why Wenjie would betray earth. He said the chinese version only briefly mentioned the cultural revolution. I have new inlaws that escaped the cultural revolution. When I get together with them I can ask. According to them. the current Chinese government disapproves of the cultural revolution and has given reparations to victims of the revolution. It is all still a mystery.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

That's explained in the podcast.

@mairehoward2949

2 ай бұрын

​@@DamienWalter I love your videos, so take this as a respectful disagreement. Part of the problem is 90% of what you said in the video can be true without proving your original point. You said that Three Body Problem is authoritarian propaganda. You had 2 points to uphold this - one I agreed with and one I disagreed with. 1. You said that the books made it through the Chinese censors. This is true and suspicious but does not make the book propaganda. I was also surprised. 2. You said the Trisolarans represent anti-authoritarians because they live in a chaotic system. The Trisolarans seem culturally authoritarian, so I am not sure this proves anything. You then went on to say that the Dark Forest = to fear the unknown = authoritarian idea. I am not buying this part. Game theory is a good idea even if you are anti-authoritarian. We all go through life managing risk, to decide how much to trust and not trust. We all have game theory baked into our instincts, so that is how we survive. Anti-authoritarians just have more sophisticated risk management mechanisms because we want to live in a non zero sum game.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

The main evidence is that 3B is an excellent presentation of the values of today's CCP IE nihilism. Of course many people find those values very appealing, nihilism is a powerful attractor, which is more the source of these objections. But thinking you're just reading an entertainment is quite unconscious.

4 million viewers on a 40k subbed channel is wild. I hadn't subscribed. I don't even know what subscribing does anymore.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

Not very much. The algo is all.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

But, thanks!

@josefdawson5284

2 ай бұрын

​@@DamienWalter you're doing good work. One major obstacle I see to the "starship" type vision is that in star trek they are unaffected observers who only have investment in the planets they visit through compassion (which is virtuous), but I don't think we can ever be completely outside society. I agree authority isn't the solution, but I think the star ship and its detachment is a removal of self from our own context. Rather, I think the path should properly be through some kind of immersion in our own context, a re-engagement with the past (i.e. Christianity) while addressing the concerns that lead us to reject it in the first place. But individually I don't think that gives a clear path to a global, political solution (which is tempting). Rather, through the improvement of our own locale (self, family, local community) the global problems are solved by a kind of virtue calculus, each infinitesimile change accumulating to affect the limit sum. Large scale (national, global) frameworks don't work unless they allow the small scale to flourish. The golden path isn't in a particular political mode or framework. Rather, the political is a reflection of the accumulated microcosms within it -- the people get the ruler they deserve. Greed is the obvious case study in our time -- we have greedy, selfish politicians, but if you look at individual behaviour online (e.g. microtransactions, affiliate links, prevalence of scams and grifters), we are a greedy populace. You don't solve that by simply dethroning the greedy politician, but by raising a people that are free from that vice. And then dethroning the tyrant. Ramble ramble I don't really know what's going on either haha.

@josefdawson5284

2 ай бұрын

@@DamienWalter oh and the vlad vexler name drop was well placed, i'm gonna check him out

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

​@@josefdawson5284 If you combine Star Trek with the mirrorverse, you get how the Enterprise crew really would be.

My biggest problem with the 3 body problem is the false premise. We can absolutely predict the behavior of 3 bodies.

@hanswissmeyer9950

Ай бұрын

Please tell me how.

thank you

The background info on Cixin Liu and the framing of order v chaos to China v The West was interesting and good to know. I can see your view now and I don’t think you’re wrong. I guess I also just think the novels have some cool imagery and that that’s what most people take from it,, which seems pretty harmless to me. Frankly, I wish more people were philosophically moved by stories in the ways you often suggest they are, but I think it’s only a few of us that this happens to. It’s weird too because I was heavily influenced by stories like Star Trek and The Culture series by Banks, but the “messaging” in 3BP just bounced right off of me in that I didn’t even notice it.

@LateBoomer-sl1dk

2 ай бұрын

Being the guy who enjoyed English class is a lonely road.

Cant watch this for a week until im back at work. Commenting for algo

I don't like everything being said in the story. I will watch the second season though I expect a JJ Abrams type mystery box nonsense ending. I don't like the totalitarian nature of the world's leadership though I expect there a few alternatives. John Ringo Troy Rising projects freedom and free enterprise winning interstellar wars. And I'm not a fan of destroying individual liberties in the name of fighting for freedom.

@DamienWalter

3 күн бұрын

Cancelled. They are making two more episodes to "conclude" the story.

I have hope that the popularity of this book and the 2 tv series will generate interest in Chinese thought and culture in the West, and also encourage dialogue and discussions between individuals across the world. If we can balance the cherished freedoms we say we value in the West, and also learn how the Chinese brought 600 million of their people out of poverty, we might have a chance at a more fair egalitarian economy in America. I would prefer that to the plan to destroy China. Surely this is on the mind of the author.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

Do some basic reading on the economic growth in China.

The dark forest theory doesnt work at all, because it is a law in the books and not a possible behavior for a civilization (except for earth of course 😅). It is pretty simple and kind of boring and what all that leads to in book 2 and 3 is in parts just stupid 😂... unfortunately

I think you're being paranoid. I've read the 3 books and let me just say, there are really no true heroes in the seriee because, spoilers, the universe ended or rather restarted anew erasing memories of the past universe. The humans aren't really all that good and the trisolarans aren't all that bad either. It's in a sense like Dune, humans are the closes you have to the good guys I suppose. You said "the true meaning of the story". What's the point of the "true meaning of the story" if only you see it that way? If no one interprets it the way you do then essentially "the true meaning of the story" is lost. The writer failed, his agendas and propagandas failed. China failed until you made this video which weirdly enough inform them of "the meaning of the story". I'm not an expert in Chinese politics either and have a rather negative view on China. But iI'd argue it's not relevant to the book. If the censorship allowed his story through then they've done something right, weirdly enough. The trilogy itself isn't all that great either. Cold characters, and book 2's main character started out as someone who doesn't really care about anything at all until he misused his authority to get a girlfriend that he happened to care about and find something to fight for and somehow became the unlikely hero (from humanity's point of view anyway). Book 2 is my favorite though and is the best of 3 books. Book 3 meanders and is kind of a mess. I honestly don't see a reason to boycott it or anything. It found success to get a tv deal but I don't think the majority of people will read the trilogy especially book 3. It's just wild and out there. I separate politics from stories though and just enjoy them. And if they have an agenda and it's written well, then fine. If it's written badly, then let it rot. The quality of the book is what matters because Cixin Liu is a writer. Or since it's scifi, its ability to provoke thoughts, like I said, I don't think the trilogy is great as a whole but I really liked Dark Forest. The whole dimension thing seems to draw from String Theory and that's a whole lot of BS. I'm only half way in. I loved your opening and other stuffs but when you get to "the true meaning of the story" it just annoyed me. Why? I was really enjoying your thoughts but to me there's like this anti-propaganda machine when you get to that. Some sort of over-aggressive blood white cells but on society's level, reacting to a perceived threat in a series of scifi books. 51 minutes in, I don't know where you're going really. I just hope this isn't gonna be some scaremongering video by the end.

@youlikeanh

2 ай бұрын

Sci Fi has always been a “political” genre. It allows people to imagine a world that is beyond their current reality. What Damien is pointing out is, how can a very popular book that comes out of an authoritarian government is trying to communicate. “Mainland Chinese science fiction is restricted from covering certain themes due to restrictive government law and censorship” The cultural settings stories are told from and what they culturally represents is important in Media Literacy. I suggest the BBC doc:“Can’t Get You Out of my Head” by Adam Curtis, if you’d like to understand more.

@hoos3014

Ай бұрын

The criticism in this video is so far off base you can no longer see the ballfield. My man is seeing ghosts.

It seems you're using postmodernism in two distinct ways, one referring to authoritarian utilitarianism (nihilism, surveillance state, moral relativism), and the other when you quote Michel Foucault and his criticism of systems of control. My question is, are the Harkonnens postmodernists?

@LateBoomer-sl1dk

2 ай бұрын

I think the Atreides come closer.

Authoritarian utilitarianism. Au, gold. Astronomical unit. Still alive, taking breaks to focus on the deeper thinking.

Playing Civ 5 while listening... Mongolia wins

I'm liberal but at the same time I enjoyed first two books. I'm against Chinese totalitarianism and I'm not nihilist, on the contrary I'm existentialists :)

Never thought I would say this but I'm less optimistic than Damien Walter. At our technological level, any society that falls into totalitarianism will never regain democracy before every other structure collapses. We saw it in Syria, we see it in China, Russia, Venezuela. No matter the form of totalitarianism. New social sciences and information technologies offer too many tools to control, repress the population, in a way that I think not even Frank Herbert imagined. From the 1980s onward technological development tips the scale in favour of the oppressor. A simple Python script can tell if you're joining or fighting a totalitarian order before you even make the decision yourself.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

I'm not un-optimistic.

@hinxlinx

2 ай бұрын

The problem is you (the west) so easily labeled those leaders as so-called authoritarian, totalitarian, or dictatorship, but come down to it, without those leaders and their governments holding their nations together, countries like Syria, Russia, China, will ended up just like Japan, Korea, EU nations, technically are neo-colonies of US, all for the sake of fear-mongering. You can view the Three Body Problem as totalitarian propaganda, but put it simply for you, it is needed for humanity to be aware of the fate of native Americans and many other vanished civilizations by the bloody hands of the west.

You are the first person I've heard using Postmodern to describe both the Left and Right wings. Leftwingers may be Postmodern, but RIghtwingers are traditionalists who believe in God, Family, and Country.

@DamienWalter

2 ай бұрын

Postmodernity is a state. It doesn't matter what your political beliefs are, you are living in it.

You say your argument isn't "anarchist" but really it is. When taken to their ultimate conclusions the arguments you make result in anarchist social structures. Yes, people under authoritarian rule become nihilistic in order to survive. That nihilism works in favour of the authoritarian rule so it is at least inadvertently perpetuated, at most consciously exploited, by those power structures. That nihilism is as you pointed out a direct result of the alienation of the individual from control and agency of their own lives. You even go on to say that solutions will be found in allowing people their own agency, "Sovereignty as individuals" i think you put it. You also seem to put democracy and anarchy apart from each other when anarchism is an expression of democracy. Anarchism is a method of managing the contradictions between the wants of the individual and the needs of the many by empowering the individuals that make up the many to have direct input into how those needs and wants are met. Which also seems to be more or less the sort of aims you'd like see in our societies. The elimination of alienation of the individual and the freedom to fulfil their potential. Say it's not an anarchist argument if you like but i feel like I've just listened to a two hour anarchist critique of Hierarchical Realism in current sci fi

What really irks me is this author getting the credit for this dark forest analogy in which aliens stay quiet in fear of attack as I read this very idea in Greg Bear's The Forge of God in 1987. It started with the same image of the galaxy being hostile and humans making noise and attracting killer aliens, who then obliterate the Earth.

@c0ldsh0w3r

Ай бұрын

Ok

An essay about THE FUCKING CULTURE!!!!!????? What is the 3 Body Problem other than an Outside Context Problem? Take that, Affront!

Inviting foreign powers into local politics leads to instability. This instability arises because it is often instigated by insurrectionists who hold radical views and seek to disrupt the established order. Additionally, foreign powers exploit this instability to their advantage, aiming to profit by dividing society into manageable factions that they can control, ultimately seeking dominance over the entire populace. This dynamic is a prevalent reality in the current world, not merely propaganda.

Democracy Athens was defeated by monarchy Sparta in the Peloponnesian war because the mob was influenced by demagogues. Go forward a bit, the dominant power is Rome - which used to be a republic but reverted to a monarchy. Then you have the British monarchy dominating for 200 years, then handing over to an oligarchy. Currently the two other contenders are both autocracies. In November the US might join them, with a strong streak of theocracy thrown in for the lulz. Equating democracy with progress doesn't fit the historical facts. And 500 years from stone knives & bearskins, under any political system, to space travel is just crazy. If you were lucky they might have agriculture, writing and the maths a decent 10 YO knows. And that's just the first 10 minutes.

We don't live on a planet though we do have a 1 world government called the Roman empire that created its own religion wherein is the power to appoint an emperor, appointed by Pontifex Maximus who is above the status of emperor.