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Those scenes didn't even have to create a narrative or a plot, they were just awesome to watch. Just a great time with Tywin and Arya.

Imagine my surprise when reading the books and realizing the Arya & Tywin scenes wasn't in the books. That was one of the instances where I had to tip my hat to D&D

This and the conversation between Cersei & Robert about the impending Dothraki threat proves that D&D actually knew how to write great character interactions that were in line with the source material. In just a few relatively short scenes they showed a different side to Tywin, how without his constant need to reaffirm his own pride he could actually be a decent person. As Tyrion said: *"I am you, writ small."* A shame they just stopped giving a sh!t post season 4.

@BingeThinker1814

2 ай бұрын

I think they probably stopped listening to other writers giving advice as the series continued. They got too big for their boots, and wanted to be the only ones to fill them. They had actors who had read the books advocating for more faithful book adaptions, and they chose to punish the actors for this instead. Not to mention the help with writing from HBO that they refused. I think these early scenes credit the writers more than they do D&D

@smarti1144

18 күн бұрын

@@carastone3473was there no more source material?

Definitely one of the best changes from the book. Just like you said because he shows a more vulnerable & likable & layered. This & Cersei & Robert’s convo was the best changes they made.

When i saw this/those episodes with Tywin/Arya/Little Finger, i thought about Tywin, that he just enjoys having someone to talk to without having to THE Tywin Lannister. He thinks (any maybe is right to doing so) that he has to be this persona, for family, glory and intimidation. But from all i know / remember, you could argue that Arya is like his only best friend. Not in the sense that he especially likes her, but just due to all other people in his live are more like chess pieces and or tied to some expectations. To Little Finger there are two options, he either didnt really recognised her or was not sure enough about it to act on it. Dont want to make a fool of himself claiming so random girl is Arya . . . Or on the other hand, he recognised her and was sure about it. But then it would be quiet in his nature not to expose her right away, but to wait for an advantagous point of time. Just my thoughts on it, cheers

@ramonserna8089

2 ай бұрын

In little finger case it makes more sense not only because he likes caos, but he was at this point clearly not on the Lannister side. He could have later played this card like "Oh, I knew it was you, but I wanted to help you! Sorry I couldn't do more but..."(if the writers didn't lobotomized him near the end)

@scoliosis9478

2 ай бұрын

I think its the last part, he definitely takes note, but it is of no use to him if the lannisters get Arya.

Those were some of my favorite scenes! I love the 2 of them playing off each other. It was really well done and endeared me to both characters.

Almost every character in the books has a "softer side" or a redeeming quality that seems at odds with their general character. Tywin has his love for Joanna ( a very unusual choice for a lord to not remarry for so long, especially with succession in doubt), and he's also nice to his grandchildren (other than Joffrey). Here, he's entertaining himself by chatting with a servant (probably a girl how he wished Cersei to come across with wit and smarts). So, he recognises her as a high born northern orphan. Does it make her a Stark by default? No (although why any other northern orphans would be around I cannot guess). Also, it would be a reasonable assumption that if Arya Stark wasn't killed in King's Landing, she wouldn't be putting herself front and centre before Tywin Lannister. It would be more probable she's a steward's daughter (like Jayne Poole) or a minor lords daughter. Or she's only half-northern and was orphaned from some Riverlands' keep. As such, she is no use to him beyond entertainment. And Tywin wouldn't play decoy sisters with Robb Stark, who would know at a glance. It's not the same as selling Jayne to the Boltons as Arya, where both sides agree to the charade.

As I've said many times before, Books don't require a Casting and Production budget, to make the show 100% accurate to the books you'd need 10x the budget, 4x the episodes, and it would suck due to Information Overload, nobody would be able to keep track of who's who and what's what. By necessity they had to simplify the show and remove as much unnecessary subplots and side-stories as possible. And yes, this was easily one of the best changes.

Something I did not like is that they showed Tywin KNEW Arya was from a noble family. He comments on it multiple times, catching her saying "my Lord" instead of m'lord (like the small folk would). And she has correct knowledge of the founding of House Targaryen, and she says her father read them to her, Tywin mentions how rare it is that a stonemason is even literate. I don't believe book Tywin would ever allow a literate, articulate child near his war council discussions without confirming her background and allegiance. Especially since nobles are excellent bargaining tools, and this is around the time Jaimie would be have been captured.

@rodrigobogado8756

2 ай бұрын

Maybe he suspected she was Arya or some North noble girl, but he had no way to prove it anyway and realized that the girl was brave and smart enough to not admit it so his human side took the reins for once and decided that it was not worth having a random girl he liked suffer for something too complicated to prove and use while also he had bigger problems to deal

@kudzufarmer5431

2 ай бұрын

In defense if her saying "my lord" she did come up with a great excuse in an instant and when she corrected her self and said properly instead of proper it gives enough doubt in Tywin's mind that her story is believable

I love the scenes with Tywin and Arya. I think Littlefinger recognized Arya but did not want to do Cersei any favors.

Tywin seemed to have more respect for Arya than he did for any of his children.

Thats the point with these scenes, that is what makes them so powerful. Its not a plot hole. Tywin chose to value good company of an interesting new character, not burdened by realities of politics and constant pressure of keeping the boss persona. More than some money he would receive from ransoming her. For him its basic law of supply and demand that determines value. Infinite money is for him just a fact of life, unlike pure human moments when he can just relax and not actively impose status on everyone. That is essentially what makes this so amazing. And from Aryas's perspective, having the most powerful enemy ever being genuinely kind to her when the rest of the world would not even consider it

These scenes are absolutely enjoyable and I liked the added nuance to Charles Dance’s acting and, by extension, Tywin’s character. I’d rather keep them in the show than cutting them out. *That being said.* You can like the addition AND be aware that it creates a plot hole. Arya’s vanished from the capital after Ned’s execution and even Tywin knows that. He then stumbles across a northern highborn girl traveling incognito as a commoner boy; she looks around Arya’s age and enough time has passed in canon that could justify Arya Stark arriving there. He should hear enough alarm bells in his head to try and keep this unknown girl by his side for as long as possible, as he investigates the very real possibility that it might actually be the fugitive Arya Stark in the flesh. A quick addition that could possibly solve this issue is Tywin asking more questions about her origins that kind of betray his growing suspicion, Arya realising that her cover might blow and her immediately running to Jaqen in order to bounce ASAP as per the regular storyline. As for your point about suspension of disbelief, I’m sorry but I don’t think it applies in this context. Suspension of disbelief is an unspoken agreement between author and audience, where the latter try and plunge themselves into the former’s story following the rules the author sets. You can’t tell the reader/viewer that creature X is weak to substance Y and then later on let it get close to a source of Y without any side effects, because it goes against the unspoken agreement therefore is jarring to the audience. Besides, the core audience of the show at the time was composed of readers of the books, where even GRRM’s choice of words and stress on certain sentences/concepts can be a clue for something that happens in a future book and is then analyzed to oblivion.

These scenes definitely added to Tywins character. Without these Tywin was a fairly thin character, he had only one side (although that did vary, Tommin) being just an intelligent villain (one side only), now with these scenes we see Tywin Can be better, comfortable and almost fatherly when sitting and listening to Arya about history, her favorites and dragons. His character now is a multi faceted character that *Chooses to be dominating, or comfortable (like people do). He knew she was High Born, he did make those comments about her outfit and how she pronounced My Lord/ Mi Lord, plus she was Northern, he hadn't figured it out yet, another day or two, he would've.

Charles Dance was the key to the success of HBO's GOT

I think little finger lost track of Arya before he could use the information. He would tell Tywin right away because he never just impulsively shares what he knows. He played all sides so it was never a give in that he was going to divulge all his cards to the supposed allies

Let’s not forget that Charles Dance was also in the golden child. Great villain!!!

I'm loving these character analysis... please keep them coming.❤

the Manderly's alone are lords to a dozen petty lords. the North is huge. to Tywin's knowledge, she could be the daughter of a random insignificant northern lord. They already have Sansa and claim to have Arya too. How much bargaining power would they gain by having a random dead lord's daughter? And even if it is Arya, it doesnt really add much if Robb already thinks they have Arya. "We ACTUALLY have Arya now too!" and Littlefinger was likely more focused on Sansa tbh. and what does Littlefinger have to gain from revealing Arya? It would make Tywin look stupid if he had Arya Stark as his cupbearer this whole time and Littlefinger would actually lose points by pointing it out.

I love the show and I think what’s great about it is that the brave companions were in the show. The scope was just so big that that they weren’t even named. They were there but you had to know the books to spot them, they we’re almost a Easter egg

To me I loved roose Bolton and Arya more

@DCharles

2 ай бұрын

Is there anything in particular that you preferred?

Arya: Lord Tywin do you want to teach me life lessons and tell me stories about your childhood? Tywin: I have a better idea, I'll drink a glass of wine while you go dig a hole. Arya: Somebody didn't love you enough when you were little did they? Tywin: Well said, have some mutton. Arya: Tragic.

D&D have always been better at writing good character scenes than at large-scale plotting. I absolutely love these scenes, they are wonderful character moments for both Arya and Tywin, and the fact that they do not hold up to close scrutiny plot-wise is not a big problem for them, but they are I think an indication of the problem with D&D's writing that would eventually ruin the show. Seasons 7 and 8 did have some good character moments, Jon and Dany's introduction, Lyanna Mormont, all those scenes at Winterfell before the battle with the White Walkers, really do give the actors some great material to work with. It's just that the plot holes that we could brush off in the earlier seasons have now derailed the entire narrative so so much of it feels meaningless. GoT is a show that got where it was because of its amazing plotting. Because we knew that, storytelling conventions be damned, things were going to happen the way logic said they would happen, and some of the biggest moments of drama-Ned's execution, the red wedding-worked as well as they did because, in hindsight, they were the only logical conclusion. To expect otherwise was only wishful thinking. Wishful thinking then became the main driver of the plot in the later seasons, and that is what killed the show.

I really don’t think Tywin not trying to ransom Arya as a highborn hostage is a plot hole, in fact it would be more of a plot hole if he did. Ok, hear me out, so the only thing that tips Tywin off to the fact that Arya is not who she says she is is her speech patterns and way of pronunciation. That alone is not enough to prove that she is a highborn of any value. I’m sure Jeyne Poole also pronounces words like a highborn (considering her best friend and upbringing) yet Jeyne herself is the daughter of a steward and wouldn’t be worth ransoming… all Tywin knows about Arya is that she’s not a peasant. And he has no reason to suspect that she’s anyone of importance. Why would he waste his time on her when he has so much else going on. I don’t think this scene ruined Tywin in any way, the books don’t depict him as a sadistic moustache twirling villain. His brother and sister both express that they love him, his children (excluding Tyrion) care for him, his wife loved him (and as far as we know she was a good person). Compare that to a character like Euron who is hated and feared by even his closest relatives. Or Joffrey who is disliked by pretty much everyone but his mother. My point is that while Tywin is a callous man who doesn’t shy away from doing terrible things, his evil always serves a purpose. Him having a more human side when he’s not under threat is not just plausible, but very probable.

I feel like Peter wouldnt have had enough connection with Arya to recognize her. He was obsessed with Sansa becaus she lookef so much like Catelyn, Arya is said to have very Stark like features in contrast

Nothing can ruin this scenes. But while you are right about Tywin you are wrong abouth Littlefinger. He DOES use the knoledge that Arya is still alive to his advantedge, but not to Aryas peril. Mind you this was before the Red weding.

@DCharles

2 ай бұрын

Elaborate on what you mean about him recognizing Arya.

@mrclean29

2 ай бұрын

@@DCharles he later tells Sansa Arya is alive

@DCharles

2 ай бұрын

@@mrclean29 I don’t think that’s accurate. What page or scene does this occur?

@ivanaandric5703

2 ай бұрын

@@DCharles If I remember corectly it was after Jofferyies poising, when he lead Sansa away. But it could be longer down the line. One thing I am certain is that he reveals the information to Sansa (or Catlyn) to his own adwantage. That is the FACT in the show (in books Arya is not even with Tywin..).

@ivanaandric5703

2 ай бұрын

@@DCharles Nobody can perfectly observe everything. You can just rewarch the episode when Littlefinger sees Arya in Harrenhall with Tywin and contrast that with an earlier episode in season one when he's talking to the Stark girls, at the tournament about Sandor Clegains childhood. In there you see he knows the girls, he sees them, he KNOWS what they look like.. And when he is later meet with Arya he pays no attention at first, then he sees something is familiar but when she spils the wine and he gets the chance to look into her face he instantly recognized her, but does nothing, just stayes calm, and uses that information later, to gain advantege, but he used it on Starks (so not at Aryas detriment) because that's where his intrests lay (with Cat and later with Sansa). But if you don't belive it you can rewatch and find when he uses the information, because these are just the facts of the show.

Littlefinger didn't really have much interaction with Arya in King's Landing so he probably doesn't recognize her

@andrewward5891

2 ай бұрын

Arya was with Sansa and Littlefinger at the Hand’s tournament but she was quite a bit younger than and didn’t have the Nights Watch haircut yet. Also prev Littlefinger only had eyes for Sansa.

@TV-ge3uj

2 ай бұрын

Later on he tells Sansa that Arya is alive. Of course, he could simply have said that to play psychological games, but that would be a bit of a coincidence.

@ivanaandric5703

2 ай бұрын

Oh, he did recognize her. It was made 100% obvious in the show. He did look at her at the tournament and remembered her face (because she matters and he is Littlefinger and "knowledge is power") and he shockingly stared at her when she spiled wine at Harrenhall (with Tywin) and later on uses that information by telling Sansa that Arya is alive.

Also, the Tywin actor is so good as well. Arya is cringe in the later seasons. I started the books to regain some respect for certain characters

As a characterisations of tywin, those scenes were fine. As a viewing expierence they were brillant, easily the most enjoyable scenes in Harrenhall. But they do harm Aryas Arc: in the original Arc, her time in Harrenhall was filled with fear and brutality, and the first ray of hope was Jaquen, which was kinda dashed once her allies reclaim power of Harrenhall, yet her own brothers bannerman is brutal and not trustworthy..

@DCharles

Ай бұрын

It definitely misses the insight into the groundwork for the Bolton’s eventual betrayal.

@saraa.4295

Ай бұрын

@@DCharles that too... But again, if you have Charles Dance, i understand the urge to use him more.. But those little changes added up to a point where Aryas choice to jpin the faceless men seemed to be mainly about revenge, not the sheer desperation it for ANY group she could belong to after years of being alone and afraid, changed her arc for the worse i fear...

Tywin figured out who Arya was. I am utterly convinced he put it together.

@tytania3545

2 ай бұрын

Definitely not, Tywin would NEVER leave such an important hostage go, especially at THAT point in the war. This is a man who tore up two houses: men, women, and children to make sure it wouldn't be a problem he would have to deal with again. Why would he let go of such a farsighted andvinsighfull member of a family you're planning on destroying? You may be no Sun Tzu, but Tywin is.

@rodrigobogado8756

2 ай бұрын

@@tytania3545 even if he knew he had no way to prove it, with even Littlefinger clearly recognizing her and not spoiling it. Also she could had been any member of the Starks court that went to Kingslanding

@tytania3545

2 ай бұрын

@rodrigobogado8756 He could easily prove it by locking her up and questioning her. Seriously? You would have died before Ned.

i just don’t think that tywin would ever show this level of warmth towards someone a) not in his family (he literally married his cousin, i feel like that was an intentional writing choice by george) b) lowborn and c) a northerner (he’d probably keep her imprisoned just for that, and would not be quick to forget her little “anyone can be killed” thing and the reverent way she spoke of robb)

@rodrigobogado8756

2 ай бұрын

He was an asshole with almost everyone in his family and as far i remember there was no clues that he was xenophobic. Also he had no way to prove she was the daughter of a noble so no use for her even if he knew

@ererererd9497

2 ай бұрын

@@rodrigobogado8756 i never said he wasn’t a dick to almost all of his family members. also he was fighting a rebellion from the north, he would’ve been immediately suspicious of a prisoner who lied abt being from the south when she was really from the north. also i never said he knew she was a noble person.

This is the one change from the books im most conflicted on lol. On one hand, its an awesome change. On the other? It completely destroys Tywins image of being very intelligent lol.

Honestly I thought this change although enjoyable was really stupid. For once it was out of character for Tywin to befriend a commoner and second he would know immediately she was Robb's sister. He was not dumb.

@DCharles

2 ай бұрын

He makes it clear that he knows she’s not a commoner. How would he know it’s Robb’s sister though?

@ramonserna8089

2 ай бұрын

@@DCharles At this point he knows Arya is at large missing and that she was on King's landing on her way to the north. He could have connected the dots very easily. At the very least he knows she is a noble from the north. Is that not worth checking into it?

@Rhaenarys

2 ай бұрын

Seriously. This is the one change from the books that has me conflicted because its an awesome change, but yea...pretty obvious shes Arya and he wouldve figured that out pretty easily lol.

@Rhaenarys

2 ай бұрын

​@@DCharlesbecause everything about her and how she got there lines up with Arya being missing on the run. Shes a high born lady, meaning not peasant, from the north, going north...from kings landing area...disguising herself as a boy for safety reasons, who was also traveling with the Nights Watch...that just came from Kings Landing. While we dont see him get this info, its highly unlikely he wouldnt have been informed about it. Theres just too many obvious hints she is Arya Stark for his book counter part to miss. But...like i said, this is a conflicting scene i often give a pass to because they did work so well together.

@DCharles

2 ай бұрын

@@Rhaenarys I overlook it, because Arya is presumed dead and I try to leave it at that. These are fair observations

Tywin showed this side of himself when he interacted with King Tommen as well.

@DCharles

2 ай бұрын

See that was different. He was manipulating Tommen.

@Megatron4Life23

2 ай бұрын

@DCharles That isn't how I saw it. He was genuinely attempting to teach him to be the best King possible.

@DCharles

2 ай бұрын

@@Megatron4Life23 I’d say watch it again - and maybe a few more times. He’s actively seizing control from him. Everything he says leads back to Tommen conceding control to his council, and Tywin as Hand is in charge of the small council. If Tywin becomes regent, nothing Cersei or anyone else campaigns for will matter, which is important, because Tywin is arranging to marry Cersei off(to Loras in the show). In the books, every single character in position to, manipulates Tommen. Obviously he’s younger in the books so it’s a little different. But I mean do you think The High Sparrow is being genuine with Tommen as well? I’m not criticizing you, but manipulating Tommen is a very important part of the King’s Landing plot.

@scoliosis9478

2 ай бұрын

@@DCharlesTo be fair Tywins advice isn’t necessarily bad. Joffreys reign was horrible rule due to his overly willful nature and disregard for counsel. There’s also the fact that Tommen is very young with basically no grooming for any leadership. With these factors in mind, impressing on him the fact that he should listen to his council and especially his grandfather who ruled the realm effectively and does at least have his well being in mind isn’t a terrible lesson. I agree that it backfires but that’s only because Tywin is killed and Cersei comes into power. Book Tywin would absolutely just be manipulating him but show Tywin is a little more human.

i didn't like it because it made arya a pick me girl

I agree that the best characters in any show/book are never just one side of a coin.