“To start with this is French”…yeah, that makes perfect sense.

@aborted4196

2 жыл бұрын

The french are good for three things! 🥖🍟🥖

@asdfg2560

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah it’s quite sensible. Clearly the gun was designed to be easily dropped so as to not hamper retreats.

@robbikebob

2 жыл бұрын

It's a good job Lloyd from lindibeige wasn't doing this... "to start with, this is French. ( throws it over his shoulder, wipes his hands ) goodbye" ....

@Strawberry92fs

2 жыл бұрын

The french copy no one...and no one copies the french.

@jonathanwells223

2 жыл бұрын

@@Strawberry92fs *stares intently at you in Chad*

A weird, French firearm? I won't be suprised if Ian appears from offscreen and takes over the video while being extremely happy

@johnharris6589

2 жыл бұрын

Normally that's what I'd be waiting for so I could see how it works. Simplified for whitesmiths hmm what would a blacksmiths lock look like.

@alltat

2 жыл бұрын

With the full demonstration of the mechanism included, this video is basically Extra Forgotten Weapons.

@aborted4196

2 жыл бұрын

There are so many forgotten weapons 🤣

@wolfsworkshop9095

2 жыл бұрын

@@johnharris6589 you hit it with an hammer Jokes aside, probably it would be a "matchlock"

@masonsykes2240

Жыл бұрын

Made by famed tinkerer Williard Aftonne no less!

Clock spring musket, jonathan? Just call it by its street name: the Time Piece.

@BROTRRer

2 жыл бұрын

Touché

@peterclarke7240

2 жыл бұрын

Of course, that's just the name for the musket on it's own . When combined with an ammo pouch full of lead shot, it is more often called the "Clock and Balls."

@uncletiggermclaren7592

2 жыл бұрын

Oh very good.

@nathans9861

2 жыл бұрын

@@peterclarke7240 Very poetic lmao

I have a request for Mr. Ferguson, seeing as you are the keeper of firearms AND Artillery, do you guys have any interesting pieces of artillery in your collection we could see? I love these videos please keep them up, utterly fascinating to see all the different ideas that have been presented to the world.

@johnladuke6475

2 жыл бұрын

I bet he can lay hands on a cannon, at least.

@gwtpictgwtpict4214

2 жыл бұрын

Fort Nelson, just north of Portsmouth, houses the Royal Armories collection of artillery and historic cannon. Been a while since I visited but it was fascinating. The website states over 700 pieces of artillery spanning 600 years.

@BlendyStick

2 жыл бұрын

@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 I went just before lockdown, they have some really nice decorated cannons as well as a very sad looking Achilles turret.

There is always a special place in my heart for fancy antique guns, that look like the baroque equivalent of something invented in a crackshag.

@phil_cassidy

2 жыл бұрын

What's a crackshag? A drug-fueled orgy?

Props to ya Jonathan for rocking that calculator watch. I haven't seen one of them in years.

@viclange3826

2 жыл бұрын

Came here to comment on this...

Thanks Jonathan and team - that design gives a whole new meaning to "coilgun" 😃

I love these sort of last ditch type weapons, designed to be easy to produce in times of war. They always have such creative design. The triger seems oddly similar to a crossbow.

@alltat

2 жыл бұрын

It pretty much works the same way as a crossbow trigger, except that a crossbow would rely on the tension of the string to set it spinning and doesn't need any springs.

@_Twink

2 жыл бұрын

I have a particular one in mind with a very similar looking lock, and a sort of latchet system, with a delecate thumb trigger. It's from the late late 14th century I believe. That awkward time where early handgonne's were starting to compete with light crossbows. It's been a while since I've looked much at crossbows. I'm probably mistaking a gear or pully type system for a lock. I think we need a seriese on forgotten crossbows to shore things up.

@donjones4719

2 жыл бұрын

"designed to be easy to produce in times of war." Ve need more weapons for ze Volkstuurm. No problem, we captured a certain design in a French arsenal.

When Gun Jesus visits, I would lock that up or swap it for his soul

@johnladuke6475

2 жыл бұрын

I figure they just give him a full cavity search before they let him leave. Then it doesn't really matter what he tries to pick up.

I'm always taken aback by how much variation there are in examples that I would've thought to have been relatively standardised.

@aborted4196

2 жыл бұрын

Don't think you can really have "standards" if things are still made by hand (with the help of machines).

@ericsmith5919

2 жыл бұрын

@@aborted4196 That's true for the time period, but that time period was relatively short. Interchangeable parts and industrial machining were on the way in during the 19th century.

@allangibson2408

2 жыл бұрын

@@ericsmith5919 Interchangeable parts started with the American versions of the French Charleville pistols in the late 1790’s.

@ericsmith5919

2 жыл бұрын

@@allangibson2408 Yes, but the concept wasn't perfected or universally adopted at the time.

This looks like one of those weapons that are made by people who aren't soldiers

What strikes me about this design is that the hammer and the frizzen are both 'floating' on their clock springs, which would make me concerned for the consistency of their striking geometry.

The ease of making this thing is entirely outweighed by the difficulty involved in growing the extra hand needed to actually operate it. 😁

@88porpoise

Жыл бұрын

I would wager these were allocated to non-front line forces for the most part. Garrisons, rear area people, training, and militias that might be called up in an emergency, front line troops get the good muskets. And, in the end, as awkward as this is, if you just get one round off in the battle, that is still likely better than no gun.

What can you tell of the rumored UK's SMG tests conducted during late 30's for UK military? I have heard that e.g. the Suomi m/31 with front legs you have there in IWM reference collection was one of the SMGs that were tested and evaluated with e.g. Thompson SMG.

Due to the difficult cocking and priming this looks like something you'd use behind cover. When under siege or behind a barricade.

Royal Armouries needs to get this man a better mic set up. Cool video anyways though.

@derekp2674

2 жыл бұрын

I'm sure I can hear faint music in the background on several of the videos in this series.

@shawnq5861

2 жыл бұрын

@@derekp2674 Yeah and or background noises. Its a functional and working museum so its bound to happen. But I think he is worth a microphone.

@dragonheatgaming5005

2 жыл бұрын

Even if it's a lapel microphone that'll sort out the audio issues

@johnladuke6475

2 жыл бұрын

I think the "Royal" part of the Armouries should prove themselves noble and kick in the cash to get at least a room set up as a basic video studio. Not only would it give Jonathan's videos but also any interview-style or tabletop show-and-tell videos.

@derekp2674

2 жыл бұрын

@@johnladuke6475 I see many KZreadrs seem to use RØDE microphones and other audio kit in a whole variety of environments. Personally, I enjoy seeing Jonathan and co filming from within their storerooms.

I have experience as metal worker myself. If i look at this spiral spring and how to make it. Other types of spring are easier to make, in my opinion. What could be the decisive factor is the heat treatment.

@chemistrykrang8065

2 жыл бұрын

I just commented the same thing. I wonder if it isn't metallurgical - would a clock spring be more tolerant to inconsistencies in the steel vs a V spring?

@johanmilde

2 жыл бұрын

@@chemistrykrang8065 It makes sense to focus on resistance against production inconsistencies when moving towards mass production, although I have no idea how spiral springs fare against other types. If the intention was that the gun could be made at a much larger number of local workshops than before, that would also make oversight over the production line and various forms of quality control much more difficult.

@TheKerberos84

2 жыл бұрын

@@chemistrykrang8065 I don't know, sorry. Only a engineer can answer that. My basic study in engineering was 15 years ago. Forgot to much.

@johanmilde

2 жыл бұрын

Another explanation, although I don’t have any specific proof, is that it might have been a weird guild thing. The guild system had not yet been abolished in 1790, so it might just have been that the more numerous whitesmiths made spiral springs and locksmiths made other springs for some arcane, outdated reason.

@paulmanson253

2 жыл бұрын

@@johanmilde Possibly the thinking was that yes a separate guild would possess a considerable stock of already made clock springs therefore this Rube Goldberg ridiculosity would allow the use of people and product not normally associated with gunsmithing. At least this part of creating a musket. Colonial Williamsburg has here on KZread a series from scrap metal to completed civilian hunting firearm. It is many many hours of one man performing a truly skilled trade of many individual steps. The lock mechanism takes only a small part of such steps,the traditional v-springs are much simpler to make than this coil,a precision manufacture that I doubt anyone modern could duplicate without years of experimentation. So to me it makes no sense. There are so many different steps,which then are the steps that take the most time and effort ? Not this I would think. Taking an already skilled master tradesman,requiring him to add and tinker with all the extra steps from clockspring to the flint dog striking the frizzen, makes absolutely no sense. So was this desperation,even a few extra muskets being better than none,or was someone creating this as a statement of unusual master tradesman ability ? As in,"I can do this and no one else can" ? It is beautiful in its own way,but eccentric beyond belief. How accurate and reproducible is the strike ? Surely the spring has wobble and give ,no ? Beautiful but absolutely bizarre.

I suspect that this is a proof of concept rather than a ready for use musket. Thank you for showing us this and the oak stock with little apparent (?) chemical reaction between the oak tannin and iron parts.

“To start off, its French” *Ian has entered the Chat

This is now my favorite video you have done so far, thanks

Every time I watch this man I learn something quite significant either from history of general terms lost to time. Listen to him for hours. Fair play Sir. Fair play

Wonderful as always, interesting piece.

Clever lock work. Thanks for the video.

and, to complete the list: a redsmith works in copper and copper alloys, and goldsmith and siversmith are obvious. Note on V-springs: harder to make well, but much lighter and safer.

Make do with what you have, makes perfect sense in the context.

Weird mechanism. Thanks for showing us.

back in day Government notice All clock springs must be given to the local officials for weapon production

Casio Calculator watch. You rule Jonathan!

First proper description of "whitesmith" that I have heard.

Keep up the great work 💪

I'd be a nervous nelly trying to load that, especially under pressure in a a field with cold hands. I wonder how many accidents there were when people were trying it out!? Brilliant video as always, thank you.

Love the content and the history lesson, if yall ever get to do a coop with Ian my life would be complete

@Lavarpsu10

2 жыл бұрын

There’s been several! Check the Forgotten Weapons channel, there are a few joint videos.

It is hard to imagine those elaborate coil springs being cheaper than the V springs in a normal flintlock. Just train your clock smiths and white smiths to make an ordinary flintlock I am sure it would not take too long most of their skills would be transferable.

Oh hell this came out on my birthday, happy late birthday to me for finding this I suppose. (Also thanks for the vid, always entertaining!)

Fascinating! I always thought it's harder to build a clock than a gun, but apparently it's the other way around

@dexaphobia8085

2 жыл бұрын

It’s definitely still harder to build a clock, they just had clock springs and a shortage of v springs.

I thought it would be a "fire a volley autonomously through the night" things like the idea of the old hydraulic Maxims.

him: why does it have this? me: i dint even know something like that existed

Kept as an example of what not to make.

That was a little hard for me to watch - the camera was fighting something, I suspect the lighting in that store. the subject matter so interesting that I kept with it.

it would be cool to see if the spring was comparable to a commonly used size of clock spring at the time, especially if to the extent such springs could be canibalized, the reason it was so drastically simplified to the point of impracticality was probably to establish just how much you could remove, i'd imagine if they'd put the plan into use they'd have most likely opted to add a more conventional trigger, preferably with some kind of spring even if just a weak one to help the sear engage

Could we maybe sometime have demonstrations of you firing various firearms? Pretty please

@PATTHECATMCD

2 жыл бұрын

Very unlikely with a museum piece. Although they have been known to loan out pieces for reenactment battles and proof test reproductions for reenactment societies. Rarely, The piece I'm thinking of is a twelve pouinder called Barak, and this info is decades old, mind you.

@FreeAimDog

2 жыл бұрын

what happened to the amanda show

It has a spring lock to spring a surprise on the owners enemies.

if you have one could you do a video on the TP-82 Cosmonaut survival pistol? most fascinating gun ive ever heard of

A very-early French Revolution era last-ditch gun! I never knew these existed so early!

i was under the impression that a whitesmith worked with tin and pewter

Great channel and if you want this stuff to be less scary understand it is the way because WE ALL KNOW you fear what you don't understand more then not.

Was the designer of this thing the ancestor of French automobile systems designers? I'm thinking of things like the Renault R5's gear shift, and almost any Citroen suspension.

These need music. Like jazz or lo fi or something. Love the vids as always 🙌

Actually many Japanese tanegashima matchlock musket uses windup springs.

A last-ditch weapon was probably intended to be used by a last-ditch trooper. They may not have intended for that weapon to be fired more than once. It could be loaded ahead of time, fired once during the battle, and then used as a pike with a bayonet.

I wonder if you have it, my favourite historical firearm has to be the Giradoni air rifle. If you do I'd love to hear you discuss it.

I would propose we call it a coil lock or clock lock.

Very interesting. It seems that a "v" spring would be easier by far to make.

@toncek9981

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly my thoughts, just imagine forging out the length of that spring... I think it wasn't really about the spring itself but more about the ease of putting together this "crude" external system vs putting together the standard internal mechanism and getting it to work right (which I assume needs to be done more precisely so everything fits and works properly...)

Very french indeed.. An interesting piece, and unnesseserily complicated, even for its day.

audio seems a little off on this video

If it indeed dates back to the revolution it could be an attempt at something to keep up production using the craftsmen they still had, as I would think many of those working in or for the arsenals left and joined the revolutionaries

in the terms of the French Revolution and it makes sense. I imagine these were ordered by jacobin / national guard leadership in order to be able to produce a flintlock that was capable of utilizing the skills of a cottage industry white smith, not a specified gunsmith (who were assumedly working for royal armaments and or harder to come by. Super cool stuff.

I feel like these videos deserve a much better camera/mic setup

Its so weird that i built a rubber band gun supper similar to this

Makes me wonder if the trigger spring is installed wrong.

Lets put some respect on my mans Casio DBC32

The thing that always strikes me about muskets is how you've got this combination of precisely man made tool, with a rock clamped in to make it work, lol.

They could have used flat springs just cut from spring steel strip, even simpler.

@4:45 maybe this is a British misunderstanding of America but here a blacksmith deals with iron and a whitesmith deals with tin or precious metals like silver.

The lockmaker stories are precisely what I like to hear Jonathan talk about. He got a little lost in the explanation of the whitesmith name but again the story itself was a tasty historical morsel that I'm here for. Try to structure the stories a bit more, separate them, clockwork spring first then the whitesmith story. The on bench examination was a.ok.

@MegaZeta

Жыл бұрын

lol

I'm not sure I understand why a clock type spring was considered easier to make - the heat treating principles are the same as a conventional V-spring, and a V-spring is a simpler thing to forge, surely? I've done a tiny bit of forging and heat treating (making tools, chisels etc) and I'd be a lot more confident making a normal mainspring... what am I missing here? Is there a metallurgical reason why a long thin clock spring is easier to produce?

@donjones4719

2 жыл бұрын

My surmise is a conventional lock spring needs to be closely fitted and tempered ~precisely for its size. An external spiral spring leaves a lot more room (in more than one sense) for variation.

@lutzderlurch7877

Жыл бұрын

I would very carefully hypothesise, that a large coil spring is under less tension and deformation, and more forgiving of heat treating errors, than a V spring. Every portion of the coil barely deforms. in a V spring, various areas are under very different amounts of tension and deformation

Why wouldn't the maker fabricate a spring for the trigger? Certainly it couldn't of been too hard to add one on somewhere?

Seems like a cheap wheel lock, which is unique in itself, they were usually expensive. But I don't think it is. Maybe for use with gloves. Maybe made with found parts.

I can see no benefit to constructing that mechanism, rather than the conventional lock. The maker still has to create a spring ... coiled, rather than 'V-shaped'. I would not have thought that would be any easier to manufacture. Perhaps the idea was to pinch the springs from the clock mechanisms of the bourgeoisie, after having first sent the owners to the Guillotine.

@johanmilde

2 жыл бұрын

The weird thing is that this is several years before the part of the revolution where a lot of the choices would make sense. In 1790, there’s still a king, now with limited power; there’s rising tensions in Europe, but war doesn’t break out until 1792; and the Terror and the mass mobilisation is 1793-1794. So this was not a last ditch weapon, but it was made at a time where war looked quite likely. It might have been intended for the National Guard, which as a (initially) local/regionally based citizen militia would require a lot of cheap guns, especially given that they paid for their own gear.

@rcfokker1630

2 жыл бұрын

@@johanmilde You're quite right, and the timings throw doubt onto the 'last-ditch' hypothesis. I'm gonna take a wild guess that breakages of conventional main-springs were very common ... and someone figured that a coil-spring would be a much more reliable and durable alternative.

Someone had one of those 'I have an idea' moment, and actually went through with it. Then someone else, somehow, find enough value in it to preserve it in a museum? What a weird, useless, unusable contraption.

Could it have been a way to repurpose wheellock springs from old guns in armouries they would have no use for?

@lutzderlurch7877

Жыл бұрын

Wheellocks were usually built with V springs a s well

Interesting lock. Speaking of ramrods, how were metal ramrods held in place so that they did not slide out of the housing while you were carrying the musket around?

@lutzderlurch7877

Жыл бұрын

The hole in the stock is quite deep and the pipes holding it create an awfully long path that needs to be perfectly straight for it to not be touching and generating friction against anything. So it tends to really just stick in place thanks to friction. If you find yourselves in the weird and rare position to have a ramrod that moves about totally freely...Just give it the tiniest of bends, and it will frinction-fit itself. Also, you rarely hold the musket muzzle down, which would be the only chace for a free ramrod to fall out.

I have to wonder how many accidental discharges happened when using this thing under fire, fiddling about with that trigger system.

I've now found out that it IS possible for a single shot muzzle loader to scare me mechanically. I didn't realize that was possible.

@crimsoncrusader4829

2 жыл бұрын

ever seen the interworking of a wheel lock?

@kanrakucheese

2 жыл бұрын

@@crimsoncrusader4829 It's more the way the half cock and pan cover lowering is done than the spring.

There's a very artistic sense to this weapon. But gosh is it odd in form.

Looks like a clock sping. He knows.

I was half expecting Ian to show up and push Johnathan off to side and take over filming the episode. But what an interesting gun nevertheless

The stock has wood worm. It needs looked at. It may have infected other weapons

Before you scoff, ducks at that time had learned to dive at the sound of the typical tschk-thump of a flint lock.

@johnladuke6475

2 жыл бұрын

I was curious whether it might be a gun intended for hunting. I didn't know that bit about ducks. But the awkward handling seems like it would be much less of a problem on the hunt than on the battlefield.

Is that like an old school firerate mod?

Cool

The clock glock from Languedoc

So a whitesmith was like a machinist, before the machines?

@quentintin1

2 жыл бұрын

there were absolutely metal shaping machines in that time (see the "machine thinking" channel here on yt) but yeah, they were metalworkers that had a hand in making components that didn't exactly require fire to make

The French have always carried on with an idea, even after they realised it was ridiculous, but would they admit it, not likely !

Should have got the Swiss Cuckoo upgrade

Would this really be simpler to make than a conventional mainspring?

It is interesting to see why some of the smart inventions did not work out. It is also illustrative of the disappearance of occupations with industrialisation and mass production - simply the amount of hand fitting required to make this thing work - occationally. You see something like that with Adolph Furrer, where gunsmithing got locked into the blind alley of the toggle lock. The Luger is a good example. Excellent pistol - only thing wrong with it is the degree of maintainance and the number of man-hours. If you consider the modern day pistols with tilting barrels - well it is the solution, which means you get what economists call a natural monopoly.

It looks like an experimental dead end. A work around mechanism that was more trouble than the standard example. It must have been stored as an example of what not to do. It's a sort of we didn't know until we tried it kind of thing. It's to bad more odd attempts like this haven't survived, I would bet there were dozens if not hundreds of developmental muskets.

How to make a flintlock without top quality springs.

so this is the musket equivalent of a Sten gun.

I wonder what the rate of fire would be? Two a minute?

Mr Ferguson, I have two thoughts concerning this musket. First, I cannot see how the springs and trigger are attached, but I wonder if this lock could require lesser degree of skill than that required for the hand-made tools and operations in the drilling, tapping, threading, and in hardening and tempering compared to fabricating reliable powerful and highly tensioned v-springs and the rest of a conventional/classic flintlock, especially if bridled. I don't know how the skills and work entailed with this would compare with those in either version of miquelet. The second point is that I believe that this firelock might be safely managed with only moderate modification to the normal musket drill, assuming reasonable training and practice. The first step in loading would be to come to half-cock in a significantly different sequence: - Come to Poise Firelock, i.e musket vertical, lock about face level and oriented away from the soldier. This position could probably be modified somewhat, held a bit lower and/or rotated somewhat clockwise. - Continuing to grasp the firelock firmly with the right hand, bring the tip of the trigger finger to the back of the trigger and press it forward with pressure sufficient to enable the tip (sear? nose?) to engage the bents on the cock. - Supporting the firelock with the right hand, release the grip of the left hand and bring it back to the lock, and with (whichever finger seems appropriate in a proper military manner), pull the cock back until it engages with the trigger nose in the half-cock bent. Then, prepare to prime, again somewhat differently from usual: - Bring the left hand underneath and around to the right/lock side of the firelock and position the fourth (or third and fourth) finger(s) behind the hammer (/steel/friizzen) in preparation for opening the pan. - Pull the hammer open/forward with the finger(s) while proceeding to grasp the forend of the firelock with the thumb and remaining fingers of the left hand. - Bring the firelock down to the usual (Ready) position to prime (muzzle angled up, lock by the right hip). Priming is closer to normal: Supporting the firelock with the left hand more or less as normal while continuing to hold the pan uncovered and Grasp Cartridge, Bite, Tear, Pour Prime, and Pinch Cartridge (i.e. between the thumb and forefinger of the right hand) all as normal, then: - Extend the second (or the third and fourth) finger(s) of the right hand and position them behind the hammer in preparation for lowering it to cover the pan. - Release the hammer with the finger(s) of the left hand and with the right hand, lower it to cover the pan. Proceed to finish loading as normal. To Make Ready, repeat the above precedure for half-cocking at the Poise position to come to full cock, then bring the firelock down to the Ready position, rather than the usual procedure of coming to the Ready position and cocking with the right hand. Aim and Fire are like normal. Regards

@joelvca

2 жыл бұрын

I forgot to mention that this spring-rebounding hammer (/steel/frizzen) would likely be hell on any flints less than full length and rather robust. The left (conventional) lock on my double rebounds badly and just eats any flints not meeting this description.

How would that be any easier to make than a standard gun lock? Anyone who could make that should be able to duplicate flintlock parts.

france would just like to distance ourselves from this early attempt at steampunk design..

Lol 'colonies' ha ha. Great video Jonathan, as ever!

I very much prefer when you talk about these older, pre-20th century guns. I find them are far more interesting. There is much more experimentation involved. By the time WW1 is starting, everything has become much more standardized and manufactured.

Yo can I donate a microphone to this museum haha. I love your guys’s vids but the audio quality leaves a little to be desired. Also, I’m not kidding, can I send a microphone to you guys.

Clockwork Rifle ?

Woodworm? It must be a problem in such collections.

@colinjohnson5515

2 жыл бұрын

Do you think? All the arms are stored in such a clean climate controlled environment I would assume they would have mitigated that type of thing by now

I don't think that this lock, with its two spiral springs is simpler than a "de patilla" (miquelet) lock.