I'm really happy that a few of us in our corner of KZread have picked up and are shining a spotlight on this concise yet important work by Dr. Castaldo and Dr. Littlejohn. I think the future looks bright if we all keep resourcing our Reformation forefathers and turning to Scripture as our infallible guide -- another phenomenal video, Gavin!

@theodosios2615

5 ай бұрын

Keep up the great work man, I love your channel!

@matthewashman1406

5 ай бұрын

Yes this was a very good discussion . Thanks for the info

@CatholicZealot

5 ай бұрын

Your channel is getting to be very good good!

@SpotterVideo

4 ай бұрын

Based on Hebrews 9:10, the time of the "reformation" was during the first century. Why is the term "new covenant" not found in many of the man-made confessions of faith? It is found in the Bible multiple times. Are many stuck half-way in the Old Covenant and half-way in the New Covenant? Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. New Covenant Whole Gospel: Who is now the King of Israel in John 1:49? Is the King of Israel now the Head of the Church, and are we His Body? Why did God allow the Romans to destroy the Old Covenant temple and the Old Covenant city, about 40 years after His Son fulfilled the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 in blood at Calvary? What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word. Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below. Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him. He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8, 3:16? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart. Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36) We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. 1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Watch the KZread videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.

Very recent convert to Catholicism here. Not yet confirmed but thought I’d share my story. I love my Baptist roots, and still listen to my old pastors sermons from time to time, but there’s something different about the mass. It moves me. It makes me feel I’m in the presence of god. It makes my conscience come alive in a way I never had before. It makes me want to live every day trying to be a stronger man and a more charitable Christian. I could make a logical argument but we’ve all watched enough Gavin ortlund trent horn interaction to make up our own minds on that. In the end I felt like the theological arguments stalemate on both sides, and you have to make a leap of faith

@Nolongeraslave

4 ай бұрын

Be careful about "feelings". I would know that attending for the first time can be impressive, but I am not sure whether you really understand the theology behind it. Truth rarely include feelings or emotions.

@Tim097

4 ай бұрын

Welcome Home Brother. 🙏🏼📿✝️

@ContemplativeSoul

4 ай бұрын

I decided I wanted to be Catholic through books, but over the years the liturgy has taken the place of books in my life. I thought I would have gotten bored with it by now, not more enamored

@Nolongeraslave

4 ай бұрын

@@ContemplativeSoul I am trying to figure out the necessity of your comment🤔

@ContemplativeSoul

4 ай бұрын

@Nolongeraslave my comment was to aleccochran saying they like the mass. I like the mass too. It's like being in kindergarten and someone saying they like the color red and me responding I like the color red too. There is no necessity to my comment, as there is not much necessity to much of human conversation. Btw, my favorite color is green, what's yours?

I went from non denominational to Anglican. I needed a deeper understanding, connection, and structured Faith.

@littleboots9800

5 ай бұрын

Same.

@Eire-xq9jz

5 ай бұрын

I have been moving in that direction too. I came to faith in an evangelical church but my study of church history and their interpretation of parts of scripture showed me they were no closer to the biblical church than many other traditions. I also felt that their low view of communion were it was once a month and almost like and afterthought that bothered me. The Catholic and Orthodox traditions have strayed to far from the teachings of scripture for me so the discovery of confessing Anglicans and Lutherans seems the way to go. Of course neither are found anywhere near where I live

@joshuatrott193

5 ай бұрын

@@Eire-xq9jz the early church definitely challenges the status quote of Evangelical Churches. I've found there is more awe and reverence in Anglicanism. Granted it has to be the traditional version. During the reformation Anglicans became a middle ground between Catholic and Reformers. Often referred to as the Via Media

@user-ee2vt7yi3m

5 ай бұрын

I listen to baptists, calvinists, catholics, and anglicans, thinking of listening to the orthodox, purposefully non denominational so I can draw from their different traditions based on my experiences with god if I were to choose a church based on a need for tradition I'd be anglican since CS lewis picked it, and CS lewis is my gateway into christianity, but because john piper and doug wilson are so good at preaching with biblical verses in my mind, I currently listen to calvinists, also based on my interpretation of how I experience god's signs, I've figured he's probably doing predestination, but CS lewis anglican free will arguments sounds more like god's actual character in my heart so I'm stuck between my own perceived experience of god's methods, and my experience of god's character through those methods, calvinist predestination versus anglican free will in that sense I'm purposefully non denominational because neither seems to answer my question on free will, plus I'm unsure about purgatory, so I draw eclectically in different situations on the different denominations I'm actually thinking of checking out orthodoxy because of jonathan pageau as well

@joshuatrott193

5 ай бұрын

@@user-ee2vt7yi3m when it comes to Free Will or Calvinists point. I'd suggest looking into 6 Ecumenical council which dealt with the Monothelite controversy. I tend to land on its a blending of 2 wills. St Maximus the Confessor had a quote that I like "Myself and God together are a majority and an overwhelming one at that". With Anglo Catholic, we are encouraged to study and listen to other denominations preachers, and teachings. Esp Catholic and Orthodox. The issue is what kind of Anglican Churches are near you. ACNA is the biggest group, yet they are facing the same issues that the Episcopal Church has. I prefer the Anglican Church who leans heavier on the High Church side of things.

Currently looking into RCIA. After almost 6 agonizing months. For anyone who is in the process of converting, this is not some ear tickling fun journey. It is gut wrenching to think you may be in the wrong doctrine. It takes immense prayer and seeking and learning. The biggest turning point for me was when I felt convicted to not join my Baptist Church that I was attending. Full of loving and supportive people, many who I had grown close too, and who genuinely loved the gospel. I felt convicted with two words, authority and holiness. I knew deep down I didn’t recognize authority in my church, and they would not lead me to holiness… which is what we are called to be. I keep praying if the Lord doesn’t want me to be Catholic to pull me out, yet I know I am seeing more truth in it than anything I have come across. Also it comes down to the Eucharist, because once you believe in the true presence, Protestantism falls.

@elizabethking5523

3 ай бұрын

@lisalamb1896, you got that right! It was no picnic!!! But, it took me 6 yrs of study to beat out the lies!! It was so upsetting!! ❤ but, it made me stronger !!! And some RCIA’s aren’t so that organized but I found a great 😊 one! And one must go in and make friends. It’s up to us! And I was able to fight thru it bc of the Eucharist!! It is true! ❤🙏🏻😃 Blessings to you on your journey! Oh, and PS The Lord will deal with any bad guys in the Church! Jesus promised that hell would come against it but will NOT prevail!❤️🙏🏻

@theknight8524

2 ай бұрын

​Why Catholic converts act like zombies You are in every comment section acting like a insecure little girl lol​@@elizabethking5523

@michaelt5030

Ай бұрын

Catholic here. I will pray for clarity and peace in your heart. The plunge may be terrifying, but truth in God’s love is worth it all.

@chanano1689

Ай бұрын

I wouldnt rush the process. You will learn that they will be things you dont agree with RCC. You will read in something in history and this process will just start over again. I went through this when I was considering Islam. Its way more than you think. Centuries of dialogue can not and should not be condensed to 6 months to one year. Relax be patient. Be gracious to yourself and let the Spirit lead.

@williamstein5125

Ай бұрын

Lutherans, Anglicans & Reformed hold to true presence.

Just beginning this video. After being born and raised in a devout Protestant home and attending Bible college, I also converted to Roman Catholicism in 2019. I may have to purchase this book to see how many of these authors' thoughts touch on my own concerns and convictions. I'm grateful for the work of charity which Gavin does here on KZread.

@saintejeannedarc9460

5 ай бұрын

You sound like a Godly and well considered Christian. What made you convert to Catholicism, when you were already a Christian?

@nf8367

5 ай бұрын

Because he wanted to join the one true holy and apostolic church

@johnnyjordan9305

5 ай бұрын

@@nf8367isn’t that the Orthodox Church?

@evanleesmith385

5 ай бұрын

@@saintejeannedarc9460 I've continued to unpack the layers over the years, trying to understand it myself. Here are a few reasons that I can make sense of: 1. I was raised on Sacred Scripture (daily Bible studies, Awanas, Bible Bowl, Bible College, etc), and Catholic teaching made the most sense out of all denominations. 2. Being raised in a large family (6 siblings), we were open to life. I believe Contraception is at the root of our sexual confusion. The Catholic Church is the only church formally teaching against it. 3. I believe in Apostolic Succession. 4. Because of my early childhood reading of medieval literature (Robin Hood, King Arthur, Narnia, Lord of the Rings, etc.), I have a Sacramental imagination. I think this was a fundamental paradigm which influenced me. 5. Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

@saintejeannedarc9460

5 ай бұрын

@@evanleesmith385 Thanks for letting me know. I find it fascinating how some get convinced of apostolic succession. I can't be myself, not the way the Catholics claim it. I'll just leave it there. I really wanted to hear your testimony a bit, not lure you to debate. We're brothers nevertheless. You probably know you were just as saved before you converted, but feel you've reached the fullness of faith now. You make some good points about Catholics standing against birth control. Protestants largely not forbid it. There are some large protestant families still. Usually it's Catholics and that's a strength. I see strengths and weaknesses across the different branches.

Will offer my take on this conversation. I converted to orthodoxy after 30+ years as an evangelical. Some more context is that I was also involved in the Christian music industry. This is 'a' factor among a few, but I want to highlight it because I didn't notice it mentioned in this conversation. Orthodoxy survived secularization. In my experience, the modern evangelical movements continued to surrender ground to secularity, to where it became unrecognizable as a Christian institution. What I saw happening in the culture, world, as fruits of secularization, you could count on becoming integrated into your local evangelical institution. Are catholicism or orthodoxy immune from this. No, but what's happened in evangelicalism is worlds apart. That's my take that I care to share. It's not exhaustive, but hope it's helpful.

I reluctantly converted from Protestantism to Catholicism after 30+ years because of better ways to have stronger marriage. Protestantism affirmed husband in bad habits(he’s just a “sinner saved by grace” for goodness sake) I just needed to forgive and forget. They saw him on the surface. I really wish we could have worked it out in the Protestant(pca) church because of all the wonderful people. By God’s grace we will make it through the power of God’s word shared consistantly (OT, NT and Psalms at every Mass) and the sacraments. Please pray for us, friends🧡

@Nolongeraslave

4 ай бұрын

Did the Church you joined help you in your concern with a husband in bad habits? If so how? Just curious.

@chanano1689

Ай бұрын

This isnt Protestantism, this was a Church issue that didnt hold the members accountable.

@chiukid

Ай бұрын

That is not even the historic protestant view on marriage.

This is why orthodox Anglicanism is so wonderful - a church steeped in history but passionately centred in the Gospel! I'm so glad Richard Hooker, a great Anglican theologian, was mentioned.

@doubtingthomas9117

5 ай бұрын

As a member of a traditional Anglican Church for the past 13 years, I agree 👍🏻

@Democracyofthedead

5 ай бұрын

Can orthodox Anglicans use contraception? Can they validly marry with no plan to have children? Can they marry a divorced person previously validly married? Thanks!

@jmh7977

5 ай бұрын

I greatly respect my orthodox Anglican brothers. I went another way, but it could have easily gone that path. Kudos, brother.

@Crucian1

5 ай бұрын

@@Democracyofthedead The phrase 'orthodox anglican' refers to someone who holds to traditional protestant teaching and is faithful to the Book of Common Prayer and the 39 Articles. So there isn't definitive teaching on your questions, although no doubt theologians who are orthodox anglicans will have opinions on the matters in question.

@Democracyofthedead

5 ай бұрын

@@Crucian1 I took “steeped in history” to mean that an orthodox Anglican could marry his beliefs with the historic Church. Thanks for the clarification that you are referring to Protestant history, because I see absolutely no way to marry the belief that contraception is licit with the historic Church. That contraception is licit, is a very novel Protestant belief.

I was raised Baptist, was Baptist/Non-denom as a young adult, and am now a Catholic. I loved our non-denom church. It was Bible based, welcoming, and I do sometimes miss the great sermons. Our Pastor was a personal friend. The toughest thing about converting was leaving behind our community there, who I knew wouldn't understand why a young couple would ever convert to Catholicism in 2023. But when Jesus is truly present, as He is in the Eucharist... You follow.

@davidjanbaz7728

5 ай бұрын

You need to watch Gavin 's video on the Protestant Real Presence view. I believe in the Real Presence : just NOT the Catholic Transubstantiation view .

@thelonelysponge5029

5 ай бұрын

@@davidjanbaz7728Does it matter? Do they have the authority to consecrate the host?

@thorhansen1333

5 ай бұрын

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you-they are full of the Spirit and life. Catholic Church: You need to eat flesh to obtain grace bro

@thelonelysponge5029

5 ай бұрын

@@thorhansen1333 this calls himself the bread of life, so there’s that.

@christsavesreadromans1096

5 ай бұрын

@@davidjanbaz7728Jesus called the bread His body, and gave it to His apostles to eat. Seems obvious to me. (Matthew 26:26)

Also a new Catholic here. Gavin played a huge role in that decision but not at all in a bad way. His ability to keep a debate friendly and on topic allows for that discussion to go deeper than any other protestant/Catholic debates out there. It forces the Catholic apologists to provide just that much better of responses. For myself, it just happened to be that those responses spoke to me more, as does the Catholic church. We also have had many affirming experiences with how things have lined up since taking Catholicism seriously, prayers answered, etc. I also am committed to the sacramental system. Without it, I never really improved or changed. Since being Catholic and engaging with the sacraments, I have felt them change me and I've come a long way on some of my baggage sins. I see them as clearly biblical and I now know why. To me, my heart and conscience just says the Catholic church best represents what Christ wanted to build. A real church with real walls and real practices. One if the biggest reasons I am confident in my decision is what I see as the lack of protestatnt worship. I see a lot of teaching and prayer, but I see the pulpit at the center of the church. As great and crucial as those things are, they are different things than worship. I see the Catholic church as the richest deposit of teaching, prayer and worship as God asked to be worshipped and how worship has always been understood. For more on that distinction, Joe Heschmeyer has a great video explaining it in a way I never could.

@elizabethking5523

Ай бұрын

Awesome testimony! ❤️🙏🏻

@gainsofglory6414

Ай бұрын

@@MaddieMS636 I included salvation in that. Works being part of earning salvation is a complete misunderstanding of Catholicism that comes up very often. Like the verse you posted. I don't see where you think that verse is at odds with Catholicism. And this is part of what I was praising Gavin for. So many debates I saw were hung up dealing with misconceptions like this, but Gavin does very well in advancing conversations to the real meat of the matter. It made for much deeper debates, I just still disagreed with his interpretations afterwards and found the other side to have a more compelling mastery of scripture, history and the authority of interpretation. Though I think interpretive authority is a higher issue between the sides than any individual issue that arises from different interpretations. This definitely drove me away from protestantism.

@gainsofglory6414

Ай бұрын

@@MaddieMS636 Lots of stuff so I'll do numbered points. 1. Salvation, you said it yourself. Works after salvation, not as a requirement for salvation. Salvation is a free gift of grace. But one must cooperate with that grace, not reject it. This is very similar to the true definition of "faith alone". There are 3 levels of faith one can derive from scripture. Intellectual assent (where I am) which is the lowest form of acknowledging its all true but thats it. Trusting faith is what it sounds like, knowing and going along with. And formative faith is knowing and being changed by it. When protestants say faith alone, they mean formative faith which good works are a part of. They do not mean simple Intellectual assent. Catholics agree with this model if formative faith is the faith mentioned. They just have a more formal and sacramental understanding of it. Many popes have affirmed agreement to faith alone if its in the context of formative fiath, including the current pope. Look to Jimmy Akin and Trent Horn on this topic again with that in mind. Akin is doing a lot of work on it now, especially his most recent debate with James White. 2. I do not see how the church is exclusionary. Christ taught certain things, and we either believe what he taught or something else. If 2 people believe differently on a core teaching, there is only 1 answer that has the fullness and truth. Other interpretations can be true but not full, and others false. Our beliefs exclude, not the church. 3. The church evangelizes non stop. Defending against protestant critiques they find wrong or lacking in fullness is but one tiny form of their evangelization, its working to arrive at truth. This channel even is called "truth unites", and I agree. Though unity is very, very important to Christ and the church wishes to maintain it since thats tue entire reason Christ gave us a pope, salvation outside the church is indeed a possibility. Many of the reasons people aren't in the church are due to the actions of men and God's grace knows that, even if its his will that we be united in his church. I do feel most protestants miss out on the fullness of truth in this life but I don't worry for their salvation. 4. As for your reading of scripture and spiritual wealth, you are miles ahead of me so I can't say anything. Being Catholic doesn't make you more spiritually righteous at all. Having the fullness of truth I feel is certainly true, but that again is only having access to the insight and truth. What you do with that is up to you and the holy spirit. Like I may think you are missing out on the knowledge of the fullness of what Christ offers in the sacraments and within the church. That doesn't mean that because I intellectually know of those things that I'm more spiritually righteous or ahead of you. I can guarantee I'm not....I don't use those gifts well, I don't cooperate with them well. I am in intellectual assent, the lowest form of faith. You have much more devout faith than me. Even a Catholic could argue being a devout protestant is better than being an "all knowledge low faith" catholic. So as I work on my own faith journey, all I can do is not say you are condemned for not being in the church, but say that there is so much richness and truth and fullness in the church that I want you to experience. I'd love for you to recieve the graces of the sacraments. ..And get baptized in the proper form....scripture is clear on that part..doesn't have to be catholic. 5. The church does not have authority over God, but it was given authority by him. Remember the church gave us scripture, not the other way around. What turned me was the more I listened to each side, it seemed Catholics read scripture like 1st century Jews, and protestants read scripture like modern westerners. When it came to disagreements, the difference maker was always history. Protestants would look to other verses, and Catholics would look to the totality of scripture and bring the entire historical context in which they take place to truly understand what is going on in them and have an endless supply of other documents to paint that picture. Iswooned at that... And it is fitting tht God would give us a magisterium. He chose teachers to spread his word, he didn't just pass it out. He selected authorities. This makes sense, he didn't give 10 different truths, he gave 1. Only 1 interpretation can be fully true. We have to admit as Christians that one of us is more correct than the other even if we don't know who. That's just fact. And seeing how time affects the teachings, its fitting he would entrust those teaching authorities to pass on their roles over time. Most of what draws me to Catholicism is that it is just so sound and fitting as to what God would give us. It just makes sense. This is why Christ singled out Peter and made him the unifying figure of the apostles. It just makes sense as a necessary function of unity to do so. When disagreement arises, and only 1 truth exists, some authority needs to make a decision or else you just have division, and we know how Christ felt about division. This goes back to the exclusion comment. The church isn't exclusionary, truth is, because there is only 1 truth. Hope you find these takes interesting anyway. Very fun chat.

As a protestant, I do believe that many of our churches are partially lacking in a few areas that I wish they gave more focus towards filling these needs: 1. Foundational community that helps more when things get tough. More meaningful charity that will actually change the direction of someone's life, rather than just offer small comfort. We should be the body that provides for the needy, the hungry, the depressed and disenchanted rather than relying on government programs to do that for us. 1a. Familiar belonging. Even in my home church, I do not feel like a member of a family, but just an attender. This is after I have struggled hard in trying to join other programs the church offers. 2. True classical beauty in the church building itself. I feel that classical architecture, beautiful art and beauty that reflects God's kingdom is something we should pursue. I admire the beauty of the art in Catholic churches. 3. Worship needs to reflect the gospel. Too much, worship in protestant churches just feel like teenage girl love songs, sometimes addressed to Jesus. I can't worship with those songs. I love classical hymns, and I even love singing Latin and German songs of worship.

@joeoleary9010

5 ай бұрын

I empathize with your concerns. But I can assure you that the same problems are found in Catholicism. Few churches built in the last 100 years have what could be called classic beauty, and the music is none too great.

@Norbingel

5 ай бұрын

I don't understand what beaty in a church building has to do with Christianity. It didn't have anything to do with the church for it's first few hundred years and it still doesn't for many in the body in many parts of the world. There are groups where members have to walk for hours through all kinds of terrain just to gather together in a run down place to worship and hear the word. That there has more beauty than any church building I've ever seen.

@littleboots9800

5 ай бұрын

​@@NorbingelBeauty is one of the Transcendentals, Beauty, Truth and Goodness. Wherever there is one you find the others. Why should the places in which we worship God not be beautiful? For thousands of years ppl have paid tribute to God by putting the very best of their God given gifts into service of the Lord. God saw fit to instruct the people in the OT to gather their most skilled goldsmiths and fabric workers and carpenters to construct the tabernacle, the ark and the curtains. There were precious stones, beautiful representations of angels and embroidered pomegranates, tinkling bells on the tassles, sweet incense of the best quality. I think there is a strong knee jerk reaction amongst some strains of protestantism to anything decorative or beautiful as somehow being "decadent" and "Catholic." Wherever we gather in worship and recieve the eucharist he is with us, be it in a grand Cathedral or in the open air on the battlefield as soldiers pray before going to war. His ability and desire to be with us in all situations and surroundings however does not mean therefore that beauty in worship has no place. Ppl are different and different things speak to them. For myself it was the argument for God from beauty that was one of the philosophical arguments for God that really resonated with me when seeking the truth of God's existence. Many are like me and for those with a strong aesthetic sense they will find the lure of the more historic churches strong for this reason. (Cameron Bertuzzi talked about this when discussing his conversion to Catholicism.) Thankfully there are traditions in Protestantism where beauty in liturgy, architecture, vestments, art etc can be found too.

@littleboots9800

5 ай бұрын

​@@joeoleary9010I just read a book on this issue in the Catholic Church about and specifically why it's happened. It was very good. It's called "Ugly As Sin." Its quite depressing but does also showcase some good examples of modern church architecture and some good remodels of hideous modern churches. We lost the 3 principles of Church building, Verticality, (signifying reaching to God and God coming down to his people,) Permanence, (think the Cathedrals that have lasted through the centuries,) and Iconography, (The iconography should inform what the building is and is for and of course beautify it.) Some of these churches are such ugly, modern structures that barely hint at what they are. You could walk past and mistake them for a community centre or clinic.

@joeoleary9010

5 ай бұрын

@@littleboots9800 To be fair, a lot of the plainness of comtemp Catholic churches has to do with money. It would cost a fortune to build churches as they were built in the olden days. But the plainness is also a V2 reaction, the results of which speak for themselves.

Trent Horn is going to have a reaction to this within 3 days😂 Great conversation!

@TheFIame

5 ай бұрын

Trent Horn introduced me to the word "rebutted"

@saintejeannedarc9460

5 ай бұрын

We could hope so. Trent isn't doing so many rebuttals to Gavin anymore. It is more the other Catholic apologists that do it now.

@josephgreen6013

5 ай бұрын

Joe Heschmeyer might have something to say about it over on Shameless Popery.

@annb9029

5 ай бұрын

I don’t see a rebuttal it’s more of a thought this happens on both sides

@MrPeach1

5 ай бұрын

@@josephgreen6013 I don't know I think Joe is still waiting for Gavins Athanasius and Athenagerious non arguments from silence on Prayers to the Saints.

I’ve been a southern Baptist for 30 years and I’m going though this same process. Currently going to Orthodoxy. If you want to hear why a real Protestant person would convert here’s two big ones for me. Reading church history I found 1) Eucharist is christs flesh and blood. 2) If you were not under a bishop with apostolic succession you were not part of the church. So knowing that my only Protestant option is Anglican but if you haven’t realized they are drifting to far left it’s barely even Christianity. Therefor I could either go Catholic, or EO or OO. And landed on EO I simply couldn’t find a Protestant denomination with a link to the historic church. I’m sorry but it’s simply not there. I was ultimately putting my faith in reformers to get it right but none of them could agree hence the thousands of churches.

@barnabas857

5 ай бұрын

There are anglicans that are not drifting. Its mainly the church of England and the episcopal church in USA and Scotland that have drifted. However the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA) from what I have seen is solid. I think GAFCON anglican churches are pushing against the liberal drift of the CofE and still have a doctrine of apostolic succession.

@benjaminwarsocki1663

5 ай бұрын

See if there is an Ordinariate Church near you. You may find it is exactly what you are looking for

@thelonelysponge5029

5 ай бұрын

@@barnabas857How many conservative Anglicans are there?

@barnabas857

5 ай бұрын

@@thelonelysponge5029 If you actually look into it it actually the majority, its just most of the western churches that are apostate.

@barnabas857

5 ай бұрын

@@thelonelysponge5029 There is an anglican priest on KZread who has left the CofE who talks a lot about the state of anglicanism, his name is Brett Murphy

I would be lying if I said Catholicism hasn’t fascinated me and looked appealing over the years. But intellectually and scripturally I can’t make the leap.

@henrybayard6574

5 ай бұрын

What are some of the scriptural hurdles that you have. Maybe just list the top 3??

@localnwah7044

5 ай бұрын

@@henrybayard6574I’m in the same boat, and have wrestled with it for a while but for me, the big 3 are: the difference in Justification, Sola Scriptura and finally the Marian dogmas.

@henrybayard6574

5 ай бұрын

@@localnwah7044 well maybe we can look at these one at a time. First of all what do you believe about justification?? How is it achieved and do you believe it's a process or one time event??

@PostTenebrasLux1517

5 ай бұрын

@@localnwah7044 I took this issue seriously enough to end up with a Master`s degree in Catholic (meaning Roman) Theology. I do think now that there is a single topic that you should focus on and that is papacy. If popes are what they claim to be, then Catholicism is true Christianity and their Church is the church of Christ. However, if their claims are false, there is absolutely no need to investigate any further. Go and read decrees of the First Vatican Council (or at least Pastor aeternus) and then ask yourself whether their teaching is supported by church history + Bible. It is challenging because Roman Catholic scholars and RC apologists / KZreadrs say very different things. ☺ My conclusion is that what Catholicism teaches about popes is ahistorical, untrue, and dangerous and their current pope with his heretical ideas and documents demonstrates it well. However, I many be, of course, wrong.

@brianh2477

5 ай бұрын

I would think the Eucharist (communion) alone would be enough to make you convert. No other church has the authentic and/or historic apostolic succession that enables the Bread and wine to be changed to His Body and Blood. That resides within the Catholic Church. (No matter how much Protestants want to believe that they have the ‘Real Presence’ in their communion, it is not so) Also, check out how many Eucharistic miracles there have been in the Catholic Church. It’s if Christ is saying to everyone’ “Open your eyes, I am with you until the end of times!” Mat 28:20

I was raised Southern Baptist and loved my church community. I am very thankful for my solid roots in faith, the years that I found Christ and learned to love Him. In my 20’s, I was introduced to the Catholic Church through a friend. I found my home, the Church that Christ initiated for His own. Once I received the Eucharist of my Lord, I knew that I would never leave Catholicism. When churches shut down for a period of time during Covid (and Catholic Churches in FL were quick to reopen, thank the Lord), I literally yearned to receive Eucharist and was so ready to return to Mass to give God the worship that is the liturgy established through Christ in His early church and to receive His Body and Blood along with the community of saints.

@elizabethking5523

3 ай бұрын

❤❤❤Amen and Amen!!😃

@JesusProtects

2 ай бұрын

Jesús didn't start the catholic church. It was created around the 4th century with the inclusion of pope worship and idol worship. It's a heresy and you have been brainwashed.

I think (between this video and the one on intellectual anxiety) you've got your finger on the pulse of a genuinely new challenge to Christians today. Bravo and praise God you are able to minister to those "on the cutting edge" with such incredible nuance and pastoral care. So many pastors seem intent on solving problems that the young people are no longer facing, rather than listening to our concerns and reponding carefully.

A wonderful conversation. Thank you!

“Intellectual seriousness;” if that doesn’t hit squarely upon my own personal struggle within my current Protestant context, I don’t know what will. I think it is entirely correct that too many of my Protestant brothers and sister simply assume Protestantism and are either willingly ignorant or openly dismissive of the intellectual and social attractiveness of the wider church that Catholics and Orthodox folks occupy.

@jwatson181

5 ай бұрын

Marion dogma and papal infallibility are false. They can be shown historically to be wrong. Why would you believe silly things?

@joeoleary9010

5 ай бұрын

What is this Catholic social attractiveness of which you speak? Protestants have a far more robust social element, which is why S. American Catholics are leaving in droves for Evangelical churches. As for Catholic intellectual seriousness, I again don't know what you mean.

@EJ-gx9hl

5 ай бұрын

@@joeoleary9010I believe the intellectual seriousness of Catholicism is because the priests of the various religious orders within Catholicism tend to have more of a serious tone when preaching and stimulate thought more so than Protestant pastors and preachers. Honestly, it’s difficult to find Protestant pastors and preachers akin to this as many people flock to the mega churches and those pastors tend to provide milk and not solid food or glorified self-help sermons. TBN has had a major influence on Christianity in this country and for the most part, if a pastor is on that network then more than likely they’re not gonna provide the solid food because they’re more for the baby Christians or those interested in Christianity and testing it’s waters

@catholicconvert2119

5 ай бұрын

The definition of Protestant is ignorant know nothing with oppositional defiance disorder

@Apriluser

5 ай бұрын

I would encourage you to look at the Anglican Church. It is intellectually, rigorous, historically founded, and beautiful in its worship. And you don’t have to deal with some of the more problematic areas that the Roman and Orthodox churches hold to.

This video is the epitomy of humbleness. Thank you so much for it!

This book is gonna be very fascinating to explore. I believe such insight is important and is gonna work as a means to give assurance and confidence to alot of people who are in that phase of confusion. I for one am really looking forward to getting it. God bless you guys for all the work y’all do to bring more clarity in regards to all these complex issues pertaining to the faith.

Helpful conversation, thanks for sharing. Some good new ways to think about it and will have to rewatch soon

Ignatius of Antioch had a very simple way find the true Church: “Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

@geoffjs

5 ай бұрын

Agreed, Jesus is present in the tabernacles of all Catholic Churches even though our enemy will deny that

@Apriluser

5 ай бұрын

Ignatius lived before the church was divided. I suppose the Eastern Orthodox Church or the reformed Catholic Church in England, (a.k.a. Anglican Church) could say the same thing.

@fantasia55

5 ай бұрын

Church Fathers acknowledged papal supremancy. ​@@Apriluser

@AllforOne_OneforAll1689

5 ай бұрын

Yet all the other early apostolic fathers would not agree with Ignatius' view of the Bishop. They only taught there were two leadership positions (Elders and Deacons) in the church which corroborates with the NT writers.

@fantasia55

5 ай бұрын

@@AllforOne_OneforAll1689 Church Fathers were not unanimous on everything, except that none of them was a Protestant.

The demand for this conversation is very clear by the views, i know I was very happy when i saw the title! I was like 'yes!! Does that really say what I think it does!'

For me, belonging to the Church that was founded by Christ was #1 factor for me to be Catholic. There is no greater gift than to receive Jesus in the Eucharist.

@brianh2477

5 ай бұрын

Amen!

@levifox2818

5 ай бұрын

I think one of the great divides between Catholics and Protestants is what we believe Jesus founded. Catholics believe Jesus founded a singular institution: the Catholic Church. Protestants believe Jesus founded a worldwide body of believers who gather to worship God as taught by Christ and his apostles. One is about the exclusivity of the institution and the other isn’t-so it’s hard to see eye to eye.

I am halfway through this book right now, so I look forward to watching this soon.

I used to look at all the divisions in the Christian world and think "what a horrible, confused mess". Now I look at it and say, "how glorious it is that God is able to do such wondrous things through such flawed people."

@thelonelysponge5029

5 ай бұрын

Is that how God wants his church to be? What do you think of how all the denominations will contribute to the kingdom of God?

@Jarrodotus

5 ай бұрын

@@thelonelysponge5029, it's how the church has always been. It's been a confused mess from the beginning. But God is at work in the mess. Different denominations contribute in different ways. Few are as good at fighting for the innocent lives of the unborn as Catholics. Few serve their local community like the Methodists. Few have reverence for the sovereignty of God like the Calvinists. Few revel in the mysteries of the incarnation and the trinity like the Orthodox.

@user-ty8qv9sx6n

5 ай бұрын

Amen.

@saintejeannedarc9460

5 ай бұрын

@@Jarrodotus I admire the way you look at the strengths of the various branches of Christianity.

@daviddabrowski01

5 ай бұрын

@@Jarrodotuswhat does reverence for the sovereignty of God have to do with the price of tea in China? Meaning…. Calvinist theology makes God the author of evil. They can’t even say to children that God loves them because… God predestines some to heaven and some to hell and that’s that, we have 0 free will. So yes a broken clock is right twice a day but is it useful to make sure you get to work on time? Perhaps this would be useful if we could belong to a dozen denominations simultaneously but that’s not how it works

This answers so many questions-- of the basics of faith-- and from a deep perspective. It transcends human thought & reason (Holy Spirit input!). THANK YOU ALL.

I stay Protestant because even though I want unity, I also believe in open communion and the ability to test what the clergy states.

@qazyman

5 ай бұрын

The minute you build a wall around a Church, you exclude someone from the Kingdom. If there is one thing I know in my heart, it's that God has a deep abiding love for all people. I just don't think any one doctrine is sufficient to reach all. Just like you, I want authority and unity. It's a beautiful thing, but it can't reach everyone.

@bradyhayes7911

5 ай бұрын

The moment you share the Gospel, you create moral culpability for the person who either rejects or accepts it. Is that a good reason not to share the Gospel? Jesus Christ, in His final prayers before He was arrested, prayed fervently that the Church would be one in John 17 - He said the oneness of the Church would be a key marker of credibility for the Gospel message. Our Lord seems to have felt that one Church would not only be sufficient to reach all - but necessary. @@qazyman

@qazyman

5 ай бұрын

​@@bradyhayes7911 - I think it's very possible he was talk about oneness between Jews and Gentiles. We are one in Christ. It's that choice, that faith in Christ, on his thrown, to see you through life. Just as Abraham did. That's the choice that matters it seems to me.

@bradyhayes7911

5 ай бұрын

I've never encountered a single Protestant apologist who interprets John 17 that way - Jesus says "I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you". That's a prayer for all Christians, that they might be one. We know from Matthew 16:18 that Christ establishes a Church of followers, and we know from John 17 that He desires that Church to be one. When a rogue friar declares the head of the only Church in the West for the first 1500 years of Christianity is actually the antichrist, and leads a revolution to fragment the Church into thousands of offshoots who each have different beliefs on core issues of salvation, what is or isn't sinful, and so on... That seems to be pretty grave contradiction to Jesus' prayer. @@qazyman​

@qazyman

5 ай бұрын

@@bradyhayes7911 - If Peter could accept Cornelius as a Christian, I see no reason not to accept you. "For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. Maybe Catholicism just broke the law? I certainly don't see any reason to view it as the one true Church of Christ. And I see a lot of reasons not to.

This feels like it's right on the bullseye for your ministry and will be very helpful. I think this is an important question for us all to ask and engage with. I also feel like it is somewhat of a contemporary phenomenon. Thanks for bringing this book and its authors to our attention!

@maxpower2587

5 ай бұрын

It says your comment's 3 days old. Thats far older than the video. How come? 😅

@garnerb.3321

5 ай бұрын

Patrons had early access

@BrianWright-mi3lc

5 ай бұрын

@@maxpower2587 One of Gavin's Patreon perks is the ability to time jump! 😜

@maxpower2587

5 ай бұрын

@@BrianWright-mi3lc haha, sounds like a great investment! Perhaps i'll try it out 😆

@saintejeannedarc9460

5 ай бұрын

@@BrianWright-mi3lc Hah, that's a more creative way to answer.

Because they want to receive their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, in the Eucharist.

@DarkHorseCrusader

5 ай бұрын

Amen!

@mikekayanderson408

5 ай бұрын

The Roman Catholic mass and Eucharist is a travesty. It is certainly not Biblical so chasing after it will not benefit anyone. Plus all the other accretions of theRoman Church are of no help to the soul. They lead away from the saviour not to Him. Paul said I know nothing but Christ crucified. No additional extras required.@@DarkHorseCrusader

@AlbertoKempis

5 ай бұрын

That's the main point.

@wjtruax

5 ай бұрын

Yup!

@Nolongeraslave

4 ай бұрын

Totally confused here! Is the Lord's table only in the Catholic Church? We come often to the Lord's table and share one bread and one cup, sing Psalms and in prayer. Why should it be the one in RCC?

As concerning the question of what is unity in our faith and him outlining ecumenical movements. There are wonderful ecumenical outreach movements where Catholics are meeting w/ local protestant churches in my Canadian town. I was going to such a Catholic parish, as a protestant and it was wonderful to hear the Deacon there tell me about it. They look for points of agreement and pray together, striving for unity. We have to work for unity, it doesn't come naturally to us willful creatures.

@mikekayanderson408

5 ай бұрын

You can’t have unity without truth. The Roman Catholics do not have truth at the centre of their teaching and practice.

@catholicconvert2119

5 ай бұрын

Be Catholic only. Never enter a place they worship Satan such as a Baptist temple

@thomasrutledge5941

5 ай бұрын

So, you're Canadian? When it comes to unity & conflict resolution you guys tend to handle things differently than Usonians. =) kzread.infoeAcG6_P1h80?si=BdkanrWbX-cnXCXj

I remember as a Baptist pastor going to an interdenominational meeting with a bunch of pastors in the Denver area. There were 2 Catholics there and about 10 protestant pastors. One by one, the protestant pastors listed off the books they were going through, even doing sermon series on the books, as if they were going to be the game changer for their churches, none of which were the Bible and all of which were varied interpretations/applications of the Bible. When we got to the Catholics, they said, "We aren't going through any books except for the Scripture and we are continuing to practice the apostolic faith. God is blessing as a result of it." That really stuck with me, among many other factors that led me to convert to Orthodoxy since they adhered even more so to the historic and apostolic faith. The Didache as well was a linchpin in seeing some early church belief and practice that is still being upheld by the Orthodox today (e.g. fasting).

@anthonyp6055

5 ай бұрын

Slava bogu! Glory to God!

@hannahbaker3080

5 ай бұрын

Orthodox is the one that stands out the most to me

The driving force that moved me to the Eastern Orthodox Church was Christ. The "certainty" that it provides is an equipping of the Christ follower to become like Christ. The world, communities, and families need that most.

@hannahbaker3080

5 ай бұрын

Very interesting. Orthodox is what appeals the most to me, just attended my first liturgy and I already can’t unappreciate the things I love about it.

@SmilingCamperVan-fn4em

4 ай бұрын

Idolatry..... may God save you from Idolatry

@hannahbaker3080

4 ай бұрын

@@SmilingCamperVan-fn4em it’s not idolatry, you don’t know the intentions of someone else or what the Lord is doing in their lives. I unfortunately used to think like you. God gave me humility I didn’t know I was lacking.

I will tell you why I converted from Protestantism to Catholicism. I originally became a Christian because of the evidence that supported the Bible. And when I realized the Bible was true, I just started going to a Protestant church because I just did not know the difference between Christian groups. And then I started taking classes at Fuller Seminary. I read Church history books like those from then Protestant Jaroslav Pelikan a Yale History professor and Philip Schaff who wrote an 8 volume set on Christian Church History. And even these great scholars write extensively and convincingly that the early Christian Church was the Catholic Church; and they show that Luther’s view of "forensic justification" was an invention of the 1500’s. I grew up an atheist and so I had no axe to grind or no preconceived notions. But when I carefully read the New Testament, I saw that Jesus Christ made 3 predictions about his Church. And these three predictions are the predictions that made me believe in the Bible in the first place. If Jesus was not a real person or if he was not really resurrected from the dead, then these predictions would have never come true. But these are the 3 predictions Christ makes: Prediction 1. Christ said that his church would be persecuted and its members would be killed. Now that was a ridiculous prediction in the Roman empire which was religiously tolerant. They did not target people and kill them for religious reasons. Why would they kill the followers of someone who promotes peace? Prediction 2. Jesus said that his church would be unified. He said there would be a church that could be considered as "one" that was unified in love and unified in doctrine. And Paul reiterates that in saying that the church has to agree on everything. Paul makes it a sin to create dissensions in the church. And Paul states that the average person should not be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. The New Testament clearly references one Church not a multiple set of churches with contradicting doctrines. Prediction 3. Jesus also said that his church would go to all nations. If Jesus was just a normal human who died like all of the other people who started religious movements, then this again is a ridiculous claim. Any one of these claims could have come true by accident but it was impossible for me to believe that all of these predictions by Christ could occur by accident. That is why I became a Christian in the first place. But when you look at the church and see which one it was that did all of these 3 things Christ predicted, which one was it? It was clearly the Catholic Church if you read any seminary level church history book. What church was it in which its leaders and bishops were targeted by the Romans and executed? Men like Clement of Rome; Ignatius of Antioch, and Polycarp of Smyrna? It was the Catholic Church that this happened to. You can read any church history book and see how the Bishops of Rome were known to the authorities as leaders of the Katholicos Ekklysia (or Catholic Church) and were hunted down to be executed. And which church was it that somehow stayed unified through all of the heresies that came along with the Gnostics and with Arius and the Docetists and others? Which church was it that held the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, and Constantinople in 381 AD, then Ephesus in 431 AD and Chalcedon in 451 AD? The church that held those councils which kept Christianity clearly was the Catholic Church. We know who the Bishop of Rome was when each of those Councils occurred and he was seen as the leader of the College of Bishops. By 150 AD the entire church operated with the Bishop of Rome at the helm and with a “monoepsicopacy” form of government in place. It was in these Councils and others we see the church decipher core doctrines like the Trinity, the two natures of Christ existing in one person, and the development of the New Testament Canon. What church was it that did all of these things? It was obviously the Catholic Church. There was no Christian “group” or “sect” or “church” anywhere in the first 1,500 years of Christianity that believed in 1) Forensic justification + 2) Sola scriptura + 3) A priesthood of all believers SEPARATE and in exclusion of a ministerial priesthood. A church with those beliefs simply did not exist. Not only was there not a group or church taught those later “Protestant” ideas together; there was not even one early church Father who taught those 3 things together. You cannot find one Church father arguing for these 3 tenets of Protestantism 1)Forensic justification + 2) Sola scriptura + 3) A priesthood of all believers to the exclusion of a ministerial priesthood. Not a single Father. You may be able to find some quotes here or there that look like they may somehow, possibly point to one of these ideas. But no father argues for all together like any Protestant would do. In addition, most of these alleged quotes from the Fathers that can be dug up to maybe, somehow, in some way point to one of those Protestant sounding ideas, I guarantee you that if you look at all of their writings you will see that that particular Father clearly shows his views are Catholic. I wanted to know and so I did that exercise. Read Matthew J. Thomas’s work called “Paul’s ‘Works of the Law’ in the Perspective of Second Century Reception.” Thomas used to work for the famous JI Packer and he was hired to go through the church fathers and find any quotes that would maybe, perhaps somehow support “sola fide” or other Protestant doctrines. But even when he found some vague quote that might look like it supported “sola fide” that same Father’s other writings clearly showed that they did not hold that view. Or read Doug Beaumont’s work “Evangelical Exodus.” Beaumont worked for the Protestant scholar Norman Geisler and was hired to do the same thing which was to look for quotes in the Fathers’ that might seem, maybe, somehow, of you thought of them in a certain way to point to one of those views that came with “Protestantism” in 1500’s. Thomas and Beaumont along with 7 other people who contribute to the book “Evangelical Exodus” all discovered the same thing. The early Church was clearly Catholic and not remotely Protestant in structure nor doctrine. Joshua Betancourt even hesitantly wrote an anti-Catholic book with Giesler and from what he discovered in the evidence of the early Church he converted to Catholicism because he discovered that the early Church was Catholic, and the primary Christian Church that existed for the first 1500 years was Catholic. It is a fruitless exercise to try to believe that the early Church believed Protestant things. Even the Protestant history books I read at Fuller seminary admitted that Luther’s views of "forensic justification" and "sola fide" were new views developed in the 1500’s. Protestant Scholar Philip Schaff in his extensive 8 Volume History of the Christian Church writes: "If anyone expects to find in any of the church fathers, including Augustine himself, the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone … will be greatly disappointed." And the church history scholar Alister MacGrath states that the Luther’s view of salvation was a complete “theological novum.” Novum means “novelty” (I am so stupid I had to look it up). Even Norman Giesler confronts the question of whether Christians for the first 1500 years of Christianity could be saved because Luther himself argued that if someone did not agree with Luther’s doctrine, Luther claimed that such a person could not be saved. But Giesler writes that Luther’s view was ridiculous because it would mean that no one was saved for 1500 years. Giesler writes: “One can be saved without believing that imputed righteousness (or forensic justification) is an essential part of the true gospel. Otherwise, few people were saved between the time of Paul and the Reformation, since scarcely anyone taught imputed righteousness (or forensic justification) during that period!” The Lutheran scholar Hartmann Grisar addresses why the mature Luther does not try to use church fathers including Augustine the great to support his new doctrine. Grisar writes: "It is not surprising that at a later date (after Luther was challenged) Luther hesitated to appeal to St. Augustine in support of his doctrine [of imputed righteousness] … AUGUSTINE AND ALL THE DOCTORS OF THE CHURCH ARE DECIDEDLY AGAINST HIM." About “Sola Scriptura” the Luther Scholar Heiko Oberman who wrote the book Luther: Man Between God and the Devil wrote on page 220: "Application of the Reformation principle of sola scriptura, the Scriptures alone, has not brought the certainty [Luther] anticipated. It has in fact been responsible for a multiplicity of explanations and interpretations that seem to render ABSURD any dependence on the clarity of the Scriptures" (Luther: Man Between God and the Devil, 220). If people want to believe that Christ started a church and then let it fail for 1500 years and then brought forth Luther, Melancthon, Karlstadt, Agricola, Bucer, Muncer, Zwingli, Calvin, Simons, Knox, John Smith, King Henry, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, and Charles Russell and a few dozen others to claim to put the true church on earth; I can’t stop them. But I am going to believe what the early Christians believed and that is that Christ started the Catholic Church. That is what history shows and that is one reason why so many people convert to Catholicism. God bless you all.

@brianh2477

5 ай бұрын

Wow, very impressive research you have done and a fantastic explanation for why you are Catholic. Thanks for sharing! I would love to hear Gavin’s reaction to this.

@cmac369

5 ай бұрын

The bible wasn't around for the common man to read until the printing press was invented. If the bible is your sola infallible authority, it seems strange God wouldn't make it more accessible to believers so we can all know the faith. Wish there was something that would have lasted through the ages which would be accessible to everyone. Hmm. Anything ring a bell?

@artteacher93

5 ай бұрын

The Holy Scriptures, also known as the Old Testament, was read aloud and expounded upon by Jesus in the temple. The Old Testament is a foreshadowing of the New. Luke 4-16-21 is a good example.@@cmac369

@jmh7977

5 ай бұрын

This is substantial, and this is what I wished other Roman Catholics would be bothered to do instead of vapid presuppositional mantras. Thank you for taking the time to lay it out with integrity. I may disagree with your conclusions and where that led you, but I definitely respect your intellectual honesty. I, too, was raised atheist, but my journey was very different than yours, at least as you briefly explained. Thank you for your thoughts, brother.

@emily12345haha

5 ай бұрын

Amazing. Thank you for sharing!

I'm not even finished with the video yet but it's already making so much SENSE of my experience - the bit about searching for authority and certainty especially! I feel this in myself and I see it in so many online discussions with Roman Catholics and Orthodox believers

@saintejeannedarc9460

5 ай бұрын

The authority is ultimately found in Christ, and we only have certainty in his word, by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

@ronlanter6906

5 ай бұрын

@@saintejeannedarc9460 The authority is found in God's Word (the Bible). Salvation is found only in Christ. This is the core of the Protestant Reformation: *Sola scriptura (Scripture alone)* *Solus Christus (Christ alone)* *Sola fide (faith alone)* *Sola gratia (grace alone)* *Soli Deo gloria (glory to God alone)*

@nf8367

5 ай бұрын

I think Luther just added the word ‘alone’ to suit his mission

@ronlanter6906

5 ай бұрын

@@nf8367 His mission was to reform the Roman Catholic church away from the lies of man to truth as expressed by God's Word in the Bible. Only when the RC fought the change did Protestantism begin. The 5 Solas are primary biblical truths.

@ronlanter6906

5 ай бұрын

@@nf8367 You apparently don't know what his mission was.

8:44 I converted, but I do NOT look down my nose at my former (Baptist) church. Very, very glad to my childhood community and to God for everything true they taught me. It’s just that I came to realize they didn’t have the fullness of the truth.

@lordpeasent9305

5 ай бұрын

To Catholicism?

@GratiaPrima_

5 ай бұрын

@@lordpeasent9305 yes.

@DarkHorseCrusader

5 ай бұрын

In my experience, the majority of Protestants who become Catholic have a deep sense of gratitude towards their Protestant roots which brought them to Christ before they found the fullness of the truth.

@michaelcunis8329

5 ай бұрын

@@DarkHorseCrusader If you want the real “fullness” read Colossians 2:9-10

@GratiaPrima_

5 ай бұрын

@@DarkHorseCrusader exactly.

I think what is happened to me is a sort of whiplash. I was raised baptist, very low church. And used to rubbish on Catholics alot for being unbiblical. So when I actually started learning about historical christianity, and realised that if I time travelled into a church around the time of the Nicene creed and said "eucharist is just symbolic, baptism is just an outward sign of something thats already happened, get rid of priests, the bible only has 66 books" I would be treated like a heretic. It felt like I had something stolen from me, like I had been fed a watered down version of the faith. So I was in this position where i was almost angry at protestantism and rearing to join this ancient authentic catholic christianity which I now thought had been hidden from me. Now I understand that there is more to protestantism than what I grew up in, and I'm currently exploring different protestant denominations, so I know if I make the jump to catholicism, at least I gave authentic protestantism a shot.

@geoffjs

5 ай бұрын

Protestantism doesn’t have sacrificial worship Jn 6 51-58

@leannewheeler5351

4 ай бұрын

Yes! I felt like I had been lied to. Communion is more than symbolic and except a man be born of water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5). Once you learn the truth, it's hard caery on, on Sundays like before.

The Lord is calling Protestants home to the Church Jesus founded. From my experience, Protestants are asking themselves the question; why are the essential doctrines/beliefs of the earliest Christians radically different from that of my Protestant tradition? The second question they’re asking is : If the doctrine handed down from the Apostles to their disciples is wrong.. how on earth is the doctrine of a Protestant pastor, removed by 2000 years in time from Christ, correct?

@chiukid

Ай бұрын

I don't see that at all. The early church fathers prevent me from converting. I have cried because I would like to return to the Catholic Church but cannot.

i was just in a 17th Century Lutheran Church in Riga, Latvia. I was surprised to see icons with candle stands in front of them, which I interpreted as veneration. I decided to attend a service on Sunday. I found the reverence the parishioners had for the Holy Communion to be even greater than in Orthodox churches in America. I speak to many Protestants coming to my Orthodox church in America. In my small sample size, I'm finding that American Protestants are leaving in search of a deeper worship experience and the idea of finding a Christ centered spritual life Monday through Saturday.

Last year was a spiritual crucible for me. My preconceptions and assumptions about Christianity were essentially shattered and I found myself in a downward spiral theologically. I realized my non-denominationalism was historically vapid and bereft of context. I did look into Rome, the East, and the Protestant mainline, all through an indepth historical analysis beginning with the Apostolic Fathers and working my way up to modern day. The closest and most faithful, doctrinally pure expression of our faith that exists in the West (as opposed to the East) is confessional Lutheranism as the Western Catholic Church, cleansed by the Gospel. My wife and I were confirmed yesterday and finally experienced the true body and blood of Christ, and it was in every way amazing and mind-blowing. Our faith is so much more historically grounded now, the doubts that ate at me like a cancer have abated, and things seem to have a proper context now. Every day is a wonderful gift, one more chance to honor God and thank Him for it.

@Crucian1

5 ай бұрын

Hm, that's funny, 'cos so many other comments to this video are saying that if you take one look at anything before 1500 you instantly and magically become a Roman Catholic!

@Ehhhhhsureeee

5 ай бұрын

but you changed the goal post by saying "anything before 1500" He said "starting with the apostolic fathers and working my way up to modern day." So in his view, up until modern day, confessional Lutheranism is the most pure. @@Crucian1

@Crucian1

5 ай бұрын

@@Ehhhhhsureeee I was being rather sarcastic. My point was that reading the church fathers does not automatically make you a Roman Catholic; it clearly (praise God) made jmh a Lutheran.

@Ehhhhhsureeee

5 ай бұрын

oh my bad, hard to tell sometimes through the internet lol@@Crucian1

@tammywilliams-ankcorn9533

5 ай бұрын

I changed from Baptist to Lutheran for many of the same reasons.

The Roman Catholic position isn't to say that problem of certainty is solved by more self-interpreting texts, but by the reality that God founded a church to be the pillar and bulwark of truth and desires to lead us into all truth by the Holy Spirit.

@aadschram5877

5 ай бұрын

Well said.

@joeoleary9010

5 ай бұрын

What is a "self-interpreting text"?

@cmac369

5 ай бұрын

@@joeoleary9010 That's what the guy on the left says. You listen @19:00-20:00. They say that if the bible cannot be self-interpreting than more text from the Catholic church can't be self-interpreting. I'm just saying I think the church is meant to give us infallible teaching aka Truth and if you feel like the problem is interpretation that doesn't mean there's no historical evidence for the infallibility of the Catholic church.

@joeoleary9010

5 ай бұрын

@@cmac369 How can there be "historical evidence for the infallibility of the Catholic church"?

@cmac369

5 ай бұрын

@@joeoleary9010 I would think anytime you find church fathers writing about the church delivering truth or teachings from God that would be evidence. I would think there's evidence in the NT as well. I would consider the passage "thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.." 1 Timothy 3:15. But here's a question. When Paul and the Apostles taught their doctrines, were those doctrines infallible? If you're protestant, you believe the bible is infallible. And Gavin believes all doctrines are fallible. So Paul might think Baptism is infallible but how would he feel about the numerous interpretations of Baptism of Christians, especially if they say "we don't need to be united on doctrine." The question is why have the apostles teach infallible doctrines if you're not going to continue to teach infallible doctrines through the centuries or give Christians in future any way of knowing what is infallible?

Former Evangelical/Pentrcostal and joyfully received (not converted) into an AnglicanChurch. A concert and a lecture is not worship. My husband is our priest and we are home. For us, it’s been a “deeper conversion”. Love the Prayer Book, the Daily Office, the great hymnic tradition (I’m the principal musician), the joy of having icons in the Nave as we worship, the ecclesiology, the ancient Liturgy, chanting the Psalm, etc. All this without some of the topics fraught with disagreement in the larger Church (assumption of Mary, purgatory, etc)

@geoffjs

5 ай бұрын

Well said and Protestantism lacks sacrificial worship Jn 6 51-58

Excellent point by Christopher about the need for Pastors to be Shepherds. As churches have chased the mega-church model, Pastors have pursued a brand rather than becoming Shepherds of their people.

@catholicconvert2119

5 ай бұрын

They can’t be shepherds because THEY ARE WOLVES 🐺 NOT LEGITIMATE SHEPHERDS JESUS NEVER APPOINTED THEM THEY ARE UNHOLY UNSANCTIFIED IMPURE MEN WHO LAY THEIR DIRTY HANDS IN THE HOLY PLACES TO PROFANE THEM LIKE NADAB AND ABIHU GET OUT GAVIN ORTLUND GET OUT NOW

@fantasia55

5 ай бұрын

Bible says pastors can only become pastors by being ordained by an apostolic succession pastor.

Lutheran here. Looked into Eastern Orthodox after reading the Philokalia. Then looked into Catholicism. Decided to stay a Lutheran. Looking for a more conservative congregation instead. Lutheranism just makes sense.

@Getonthebusgus110

5 ай бұрын

Grew up Lutheran, changed to Free Evangelical. Temporarily examined Catholicism and Orthodox. Staying Free Evangelical, but I will say Free Evangelical is basically a direct derivative of Conservative Lutheranism if you read how it was formed

@johndoh795

5 ай бұрын

@@Getonthebusgus110 My problem is decidedly with the ELCA, not Lutheranism. Thanks, though.

@RoyalDiadem91

5 ай бұрын

I’ve been thinking about it as well, I know many mainline churches are so liberal nowadays but praying God can lead me to a good Lutheran church if it so be His will 🙏🏼

@ottovonbaden6353

5 ай бұрын

@@johndoh795 Are you familiar with Redeemed Zoomer and the Reconquista? If so, what do you make its potential for the ELCA?

@johndoh795

5 ай бұрын

@@ottovonbaden6353 No idea who that is.

Gavin, is it possible that the Holy Spirit could be leading SOME Protestants into Catholicism and/or Orthodoxy?

@thegoatofyoutube1787

5 ай бұрын

No because the Holy Spirit ALWAYS leads that way 😂

Protestants are converting because the Holy Spirit is at work!!!

@leannewheeler5351

4 ай бұрын

Amen

@chiukid

Ай бұрын

It is a social media contagion.

Converted from Baptist to Catholic in 2019, after several years of studying. The answer is very simple, the more I read Scripture the more I learned history, and (most importantly), the more objective I let the evidence be; the clearer the answer became. Only the Catholic Church & Orthodox are found in Scripture and throughout history. But only one affirms Jesus' creating the Papacy in Matthew 16.

@aadschram5877

5 ай бұрын

Amen!

@evanleesmith385

5 ай бұрын

Amen. Similar experience for me. I also converted in 2019, and have never regretted it. God it faithful.

@nf8367

5 ай бұрын

Ditto

@dodleymortune4312

5 ай бұрын

Anabaptists ? Countless other Christians who were not Catholics or orthodox ? ....

@brianh2477

5 ай бұрын

Those who know the history of Christianity will either convert to Catholicism or stay Catholic. The Early Church Fathers know how to seal the deal for the majority who study them. As John Henry Cardinal Newman once said, "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant."

Thank you for the video. As a Craddle Catholic, this information helps me avoid common generalizations and misconceptions of our separated brothers and sisters. However, I want to let you know that converted Protestants make some of the best Catholics. In fact that is why I watch videos like this. It is a matter of time before an intellectual pastor or theologian swims to Rome. God bless you.

It's important to recognize trends that go both ways. Stepping away from our immediate circumstances and observing different conversion trends that existed prior to the significant Roman Catholic presence on KZread and other platforms can be interesting. For example, organizations like Catholic Answer and EWTN were created in response to many Roman Catholics leaving for Protestantism. They aimed to provide some kind of apologetic to answer their questions and concerns. It's fascinating to see how the tide has shifted, largely due to a lack of Protestant engagement in our current times, mixed with anti-intellectualism. Sometimes people look at their immediate trends and feel drawn in that direction as well. We are like sheep as the Lord calls us. However, just like how the tide is going in one direction right now, it will always return.

@PInk77W1

5 ай бұрын

When Catholics convert to Protestants They go to 100s of different churches and beliefs When Protestants convert to Rome They go to one church one belief. One God. One faith. One baptism One Father of all.

@ElvisI97

5 ай бұрын

@@PInk77W1Firstly our understanding of the church isn't defined by strict canonical boundaries but the gospel. Second, there is a great deal of diversity in religious beliefs within Roman Catholicism, just as there is within Protestantism. I can cite several topics and you'll find Catholics holding to various opinions on all of them. Just compare Michael Lofton’s fan base with Taylor Marshall’s much larger base and you'll see how much in-fighting and disagreement there is within the “one church”. Or even Fr James Martin, Cardinal Fernandez vs someone like Bishop Strickland. Or look at how many African Bishops are outrightly rejecting Feducia Supplicans. Even with the few things I've mentioned you already have 10 of millions pulled in various directions. List goes on and on (ex. TLM vs Novus Ordo, the various changes that came with Vatican 2, death penalty, communion for divorced and remarried, blessing same-sex couples, the possibility of Muslims and other non-Christians being saved, etc.)

@joeoleary9010

5 ай бұрын

There's no evidence of a sea change of Protestants coming to the U.S. Catholic church. Latinos are leaving en masse for Protestant sects; Pew reports a huge change in that direction over the last 15 years. If any statistics were showing that Protestants were flocking to Catholicism, CA would be showcasing that every day.

I only hear people talking about moving to different denominations because they feel a different way about the ‘experience’. Why not just grow closer to God through His Word and prayer. That is what God really wants, a relationship not denominational membership….

I really appreciated the book. I think it brought up alot that don't often get mentioned in these discussions such as wanting to be in the in crowd.

Thank you for this video! Videos like this helped keep me Protestant!

@hannahbaker3080

5 ай бұрын

He is instrumental in me staying Protestant currently. I thank the Lord I found him.

@catholicconvert2119

5 ай бұрын

@@hannahbaker3080You better switch then because he’s not very good quality. If you want an excuse to stay Protestant sure by all means. But he’s definitely not telling you the truth, he quote mines and cherry picks to try and hold on to his flock so he can keep his nice title as pastor and be respected and famous etc, be a shepherd himself by attacking the true legitimate Shepherd. An enemy of Christ and of God most definitely. If you want to know you have to read the primary documents yourself and tell me if its plausible that Jesus was Baptist lol (its not Protestant is pure BS invention by ignorant fools in 1500s who misunderstood everything)

@garnerb.3321

5 ай бұрын

@@catholicconvert2119 nice ad hominem, unhinged commenter. Very cool!

@catholicconvert2119

5 ай бұрын

@@garnerb.3321 Protestantism is a lie of the Devil 👿

Hey Gavin, this video really spoke to me because I find myself drawn to Catholicism for exactly the reasons you and the guests described. I hope to think through these thoughts further

@geoffjs

5 ай бұрын

Follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit. There is only One True Church

@Tim097

4 ай бұрын

Convert here from Baptist. My faith has never been stronger since joining the Catholic Church. It’s beautiful, it’s reverent, it’s strong, and it IS focus wholly on the love of Jesus Christ. Ave Christus Rex. Come home and join. I’ll say a pray for you brother.

So many great comments here!

I am a cradle Catholic and I fell away from all Christianity from Age 18-39. At age 39 I had a born again conversion experience. I practiced My faith in the evangelical Protestant church for 10 years and last year the Lord lead me and my husband who is a cradle Protestant back to the Catholic Church. The main reasons I reverted was church authority and the Sacraments. Also the liturgy of the Catholic Church. I no longer found enough in the Protestant church to be able to practice the fullness of Christianity. I now partake in monthly Confession and daily mass where I partake in the liturgy and the Sacrament of the Eucharist. The Catholic faith is so rich with prayers and a myriad of ways to practice my faith. As a Protestant it was basically a social club and listening to a man expound on the Bible for an hour on Sunday without any Sacraments. It’s like Protestantism is McDonald’s versus Catholicism is a five course meal with wine! God bless 🙏

The statement that the unity of Protestantism is similar to that of Catholicism is absurd. When I was an ELCA Lutheran in college, i suggested to our pastor team that we dhould do something with the LCMS Lutheran group. It was immediately shot down, as they wouldn't want anything to do with us. I know that is one single anecdote, but it started the ball rolling for me to swim the Tiber. Even in the beginning, Luther and Zwingli wanted nothing to do with each other.

@triplea6174

5 ай бұрын

Where are you now?

@andrewgraupmann9055

5 ай бұрын

I belong to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, in full communion with the Bishop of Rome.

@triplea6174

5 ай бұрын

@@andrewgraupmann9055 mm Godspeed on the journey. Did you take a look at eo ?

@geoffjs

5 ай бұрын

So much for the unity that Jesus willed Jn 17:21

Recently an acquaintance moved from a nondenominational tradition into the EO tradition. I mentioned to him about “converting” and appreciated his response. He said that he doesn’t like the word “convert”. Rather he would use the phrase “received“ into the tradition. I think that’s a much more irenic term.

@catholicconvert2119

5 ай бұрын

He should say convert. Protestantism is a false religion of men

I was raised Baptist. And after becoming steeped in history, my Baptist beliefs were further cemented, and I became futher entrenched in protestantism. Catholicsm has become a modern day Nehushtan. Whatever good it started with, later accretions and compounding hubris have turned it into a husk of whatever respect it might have once held. The traditional ecclesiasticised denominations lose their luster the more you look into them. Reject accretions, return to the beginning, and become Protestant.

Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.

It is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment men cease to pull against it they feel a tug towards it. The moment they cease to shout it down they begin to listen to it with pleasure. The moment they try to be fair to it they begin to be fond of it. But when that affection has passed a certain point it begins to take on the tragic and menacing grandeur of a great love affair. -G.K. Chesterton

@catkat740

5 ай бұрын

He’s the best.

People are converting because of Reformed theology. Please keep reforming and sending your “eternally predetermined reprobate” to Christ’s church. She (the church) will love them.

I would recommend Dr. Castaldo's book on Vermigli very highly!

I went to highschool with Dr. Castaldo's son. Very cool to see this.

I’m a convert to Catholicism. Jesus is the focus of the Catholic Church, if the ex-Catholic author doesn’t realize this, he wasn’t paying attention. Why did I convert? 1) it is simply the most biblical of all churches. Protestant churches avoid or read right past important passages that contradict their varying theology. Catholicism accepts and harmonizes all of scripture. The Catholic Church has much “extra-biblical” beliefs, but no “anti-biblical” beliefs. 2) faith alone is anti-biblical. It contradicts James, Paul, and most importantly Jesus. Nearly all Protestant churches teach faith alone. 3) sola scriptura is blatantly false. Just look at how so many denominations contradict watch other on important doctrine, because the “Bible alone” leaves room for interpretation…there must be an authority to teach proper interpretation. Sola scriptura was invented by Luther to sever ties to the authority of the Catholic Church, it is a political false doctrine. The traditions of the church existed before the Bible…the Bible is just writing them down and even references them. 4) John 6 is clear that Jesus wants us to consume his flesh and blood, and he commands his disciples to eat his body at the last supper. There is no symbolic language used. I could go on and on…

@haronsmith8974

5 ай бұрын

Gavin Ortlund is the last hill protestants have before they concede. A lot of my friends converted were stuck on some of Gavins arguments. But then you dig deeper into his theology and have to accept some of his worst parts like he rejects baptism regeneration.

I've read a number of conversion stories recently, both from Pr to RC (or EO) and the reverse. It's interesting to note the differences between the two, and I acknowledge that it's a small sample size, but I still think it's relevant. Every story I've seen of leaving Rome or Orthodoxy for a Protestant church has begun with "I started reading the Bible." On the other hand, I've heard/read a dozen accounts of conversion to RC or EO that begin, "Well, I started looking into church history," and several others that start with, "I got interested in the fathers, and then..." I have not seen a single story of conversion to Rome that began with "So, I was reading the Bible and..." I'm sure they exist. But they don't seem to be the norm. Even major examples, such as the much-lauded Cardinal Newman, didn't reason from scripture for his conversion, at least initially. It was primarily historical.

@BrianWright-mi3lc

5 ай бұрын

This matches my own anecdotal experience as well.

@AlbertoKempis

5 ай бұрын

The better term is "Then I started my private interpretation of the Bible" now I became The Man I'm better than the church Fathers their interpretation of the Bible sucks..

@PhrenicosmicOntogeny

5 ай бұрын

@@AlbertoKempis I have to say, it's nice to see someone be so understanding. You represent your side of things quite well.

@TheBlinkyImp

5 ай бұрын

I'm an RC -> PR convert, and it started with the Spirit calling me to a new church. I think if you're converting that should always be the reason. It was also supported by lots of reading and videos on apologetics, but that just helped clarify the direction God had already chosen for me.

@PhrenicosmicOntogeny

5 ай бұрын

@@TheBlinkyImp Thanks for sharing!

As a general rule, Catholics who do not know the Lord become Protestants when they encounter him in a Protestant setting, but converted serious Protestants become Catholics when they face the doctrinal contradictions within Protestantism.

Nice!

I am catholic, and I love how humble and good these guys are. I appreciate the gentleness in areas where there could be a lot of counterproductive infighting. However….when I try to put myself in their shoes, I find it difficult to imagine how as a protestant I would be able to carve out a middle ground. Either the Eucharist is Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity, or it is a diabolical lie of satan and the Catholic and Orthodox churches are directly fostering idolatry. There is no middle ground. Either it is beautiful and true and good and Christ himself making himself present for us, or it is deeply evil. I’m not trying to start any arguments, I’m really not. I am just genuinely interested in hearing how non catholics reconcile the seriousness of the Catholic/Orthodox claims. Thanks!

@tb.9kba93g

5 ай бұрын

I think a "typical" protestant response might be that the Eucharist itself is absolutely a true and beautiful thing (and even is truly Christ's blood and body in a spiritual sense, depending who you're talking to) - but that over-literalizing it to being physically / "substantially" Christ Himself is a mistake and is indeed at risk of fostering idolatry. I think most would also say that the Roman church actually did cross the line into idolatry at least at some points in the past (and maybe present too in some places), and should repent of that. To be clear, my impression is that most wouldn't consider a "physically literal" body and blood to be _inherently_ idolatrous, just that it's a mistake that carries a high risk of leading to worship of the elements instead of the Person who gives them their meaning and power. IOW, prots think catholics mean well but have risky theology in this case, in a similar way to how catholics think prots have risky theology by being their own "private interpreter" and falling into dangerous error that way.

@geoffjs

5 ай бұрын

@@tb.9kba93gJesus said eat my body, drink my blood, very clear!

@tb.9kba93g

5 ай бұрын

@@geoffjsYes, and he also said that He himself is light, a gate, a shepherd, and a vine, none of which are literally the case. Context matters. All Christians agree that they are eating Jesus' body, they just don't agree on whether it's literal or figurative.

@billmartin3561

5 ай бұрын

@@tb.9kba93g the bread of life discourse is different than the other analogies that He makes. He has disciples who question him, and he doubles down. They then leave him, because it’s too hard for them to accept. He then turns to his Apostles who accept his teaching. Are you going to turn from his clear teaching as well?

I watched a KZread debate this weekend where a non-Trinitarian who denies the Godhood of Jesus argued against free grace, and an arrogant, mean-spirited Trinitarian argued for free grace. The whole time, I was thinking, "No wonder Catholics don't take Protestantism seriously. I can't take some of us seriously either."

@saintejeannedarc9460

5 ай бұрын

Being mean spirited w/ lack of grace exists on both sides of Christianity. I can't honestly say that I see it more on the Catholic or protestant side. It's unfortunate where ever we find it in Christianity.

@catholicconvert2119

5 ай бұрын

That’s how I grew up. I HATE CALVINISTS because I heard over and over how we got grace and so that’s why we can shit on the poor and why we don’t have to do anything for anyone or even be good people cause we are elect so that makes us better by being worse.

Interesting how focused this was on Rome rather than the Eastern Orthodox. I assume that is also why there wasn’t a much of a discussion of Liturgy and the role it plays in these conversions

@issaavedra

5 ай бұрын

Yeah. For me it was: protestantism -> atheism -> Orthodoxy. After accepting the Christian cosmology, I looked to return to protestantism or "upgrade" to roman catholicism, and for a while I really tried, until I decided to give the Divine Liturgy a go, and I never stopped attending since then. It is so beautiful, meaningful and reverent. You almost feel the taste of the Heavens.

@issaavedra

5 ай бұрын

@bbdl2147 I tried, but in my city only the Novus ordo was available, I was eager to find the Tridentine mass. That being said, after that initial "emotional encounter" with Orthodoxy, I studied for almost a year to discern between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, and I decided Orthodoxy.

@catholicconvert2119

5 ай бұрын

Because Ortlund is losing his shit as he knows he’s a fraud

I found this very interesting and accurate criticism of how Protestantism has often had trouble in modern times putting out a coherent message. I went from Catholicism to Eastern Orthodoxy, and now im reformed Protestant, but as I've taken this journey towards Protestantism, I see others going the other way.

@mikekayanderson408

5 ай бұрын

You seem to have found truth. Given up the lies and found Christ who is the truth. We are not Christians to be cool. We are Christian’s if God has reached out and regenerated us and we love truth. Cool or not!

@saintejeannedarc9460

5 ай бұрын

You sound like you have a fascinating journey. What called you out of Catholicism, and then didn't fulfill you in Orthodoxy either? In so many Catholic channels, I see a lot of comments of people converting to Catholicism. Plus there's a plethora of Catholic channels that love to trumpet how yet another protestant became Catholic. They get very triumphalist about it. It seemed for awhile that there were many more going to CAtholicism and Orthodoxy, but I think they are more public about it. If you watch Christian conversion stories, they don't make that the focus. Many do come from CAtholicism, yet end up evangelical in some branch. So there is many going the other way too, but it's just not presented explicitly that way as much, more rarely actually.

@PInk77W1

5 ай бұрын

Going from Catholic to Protestant U scatter into a legion of beliefs Going from Protestant to Rome U unite in one church one body one God one faith one father of all

@saintejeannedarc9460

5 ай бұрын

@@PInk77W1 Have you honestly read the comments on various Catholic channels? I have. I see Catholics deeply divided over whether to take the Eucharist in the hand, or in the mouth. Some are demanding communion rails back, and only think taking communion on their knees is appropriate. Then there's the huge division over Novus Ordo, vs. TLM. Then there's the sedevantists. There's a huge division, pretty much a schism now over Fiducia Supplicans, the gay blessing document, straight from the Vatican. There are those that support the pope, even when he says, he likes to imagine hell being empty, even though he admits this is not orthodox teaching. There are those that think he's a false pope, a false teacher and an apostate. And on and on it goes. That's from one Catholic channel to another. So please, your church is not one big happy family, all thinking the same thing, w/ one hive mind as Catholics like to claim. It's just not the reality on the ground.

@bolgerlake

5 ай бұрын

@saintejeannedarc9460 I will try and sum it up as briefly as possible. When I was 17, I suppose I felt a call from God to follow him. The closest church to me was a Catholic one, so I went there and was impressed by their intellectual approach to the faith. It seemed like they had an explanation for every theological belief they had, unlike the evangelical friends I had in high school. What led me out of it was learning more about church history. For one, the lack of papal authority in the first century. Now Catholics will agree that the pope didn't have the same role in the early church, but will use "development of doctrine" as their reasoning why. I don't think development of doctrine is coherent and could be used to justify anything. At this point I was still convinced that the true chuch manifested itself in a single institution, and that there were seven sacraments, prayer to saints, etc. So I began going to an Eastern Orthodox parish. There were two main issues I realized there. Firstly, they claim to have the "unchanging faith passed down by the apostles." This thing is it isn't unchanged, it's actually changed quite a lot, but at the same time, they reject development of doctrine, so its not coherent either. Secondly, I had an issue with their exclusivity. They generally belive that sacraments aren't valid outside the orthodox chuch and until the 1800s didn't believe there were Christians outside the orthodox church. So, that left me confused. Both these churches I thought were the one true faith had inconsistencies with their own supposedly perfect doctrine. I still at the time really wasn't overly interested in Protestantism because most of what I was taught as a Catholic were strawman arguments against it. Anyway, slowly but surely, I began to look into it, and once I encountered classical Protestant theology, my mind was blown. It wasn't at all what I thought it was, its way better! Anyway I could go on for a while, but I can't type all night lol. Thanks to God for his grace and leading me here.

I don't mean to raid on the quality of this video, nor disrespect these three intelligent men and their thoughtful discussion, but I found this conversation utterly simplistic to the experiences of actual Catholic converts and I am astonished no one else has brought this up. I have not yet decided if I should convert, but to conclude that the reason why I would be led to Catholicism would be purely based on some obscure Freudian desire for unity and authority that I, as a young member of a hedonistic modern-day America, would naturally find appealing. Funnily enough at 10:11 when they encourage their listeners not to psychoanalyze loved ones who move to another tradition, they make that same generalization about converts. "It's for the authority," they say. "It's because our world is so chaotic they say." I am not saying this what they said nor meant--but there comes a point when that line of talking becomes extremely condescending to the many people who read their way into Catholicism, whether they started as protestants or not. As a potential convert this spring, one aspect of my discernment of Catholicism that has been so fruitful has been the unbelievable peace I have felt since attending mass regularly. This is not some *zen* one has Yoga. This is a bone-deep peace that makes me want to run onto the streets and tell the world Jesus is real. Not to say Prots don't experience that peace themselves--I am merely speaking from my own experience. That is all we can do. I am the closest I have ever been to God in my life, and it wasn't because I simply was lukewarm before exploring Catholicism and only now I have come to appreciate Jesus. So much of what the Catholic Church teaches has healed my soul and delivered me from sins I never thought I would ever overcome--ever. I guess what I am curious for Gavin Ortlund to say next is: how do you explain this? How do you explain the hundreds of stories of converts from Protestantism, Islam, or Atheism who report the same experience I have had? Gavin might say "They are a part of the Universal Church, despite being Catholic." But what about people who claim that their relationship with the Virgin Mary has healed their problems with women, pornography, or the dysfunctional relationship between them and their earthly mothers? Are they (as Lewis once coined) liars, lunatics, or telling the truth? Calling them liars would 1) gaslight the experiences of these people and 2) undermine Protestant miracles. Calling them lunatics undermines the historicity of the resurrection. Are they telling the truth knowing that they would serve no earthly benefit to becoming Catholic? Possibly losing jobs and family for their decision, as I have just in my very own discernment journey? This video is extremely inconsistent with Gavin's constant espousal of the Catholicity of the Church, where true Christians reside in all traditions. The contradiction is this: there are true Christians in all traditions of Christianity...except God would never lead you to convert to any of these traditions. Two many accretions are anti-Christian! And if you do feel led, that is just some part of your superego you and your therapist haven't gone over yet.” Ultimately, Protestantism cannot answer what these "miracles" or these religious experiences actually mean, lest they undermine plenty more cases of miracle accounts that occur in purely Christian contexts. Instead, Protestantism forces the laity to become academics: discussing and debating complex and dense texts, submit to their fallible interpretation of such, and then reject personal experiences that might lead you to become Catholic--such as hearing the testimony of a Satanist turned Catholic on PWA--and say "No. Satan drew that man out of himself for him to be a part of a Church that openly rejects Satan. We should only focus on what Scripture says and not be swayed by any miracle claim, lest the Mormons get us too." The issue is that this is not 1)how humans work and 2) what the Bible teaches. Jesus did not come that we may be intellectually convinced (John 4:48) He was astonished by the faith of those who merely heard His miracles and then believed (John 20:29). People will (and have been) watch PWA and hear the stories of much better people's lives have been since becoming Catholic-and that will soften their hearts. The examples of the holy Catholics in our communities will soften their hearts and slowly make them more open to the truth of Catholicism, whether that takes six months or seventy years, as is the case with Christians and their interactions with atheists. That is not to say that we shouldn't test the claims these people make-faith after all does involve the intellect to be engaged. But we cannot simply write off all prot to catholic converts in a manner as simplistic as “They are doing this out of a desire for authority.”

@disguisedcentennial835

5 ай бұрын

Something interesting to note about your Virgin Mary stance is that the Devil doesn’t care if you’re mentally healthy or not, only that you’re in rebellion against God. And if you want proof, look at the Muslims and Mormons who say the same thing. “Islam/Mormonism led me out of pornography, led me out of hedonism, etc.” Does that make them true? Does that mean Mormons and Muslims are going to Heaven? You cannot appropriate CS Lewis’ quote about Jesus for these people. It doesn’t work, for obvious reasons. They’re not claiming to be God. They’re speaking as humans of a subjective experience.

@leannewheeler5351

4 ай бұрын

Yes, who's to say that God hasn't lead someone from protestant to Catholic? conversion takes place on so many levels that to narrow it down to one small matter of authority is insufficient.

Because they found the true church. Saved you guys an hour.

@Crucian1

5 ай бұрын

In what way does the 'true church' glorify Jesus more than Protestantism?

@tyloxs4135

5 ай бұрын

@@Crucian1 valid sacraments, proper liturgy, orthodoxy, transubstantiation, 0 heresy. The best Protestants can have is scripture. Which is good, but not enough.

@Crucian1

5 ай бұрын

@@tyloxs4135 What evidence is there that the thing Jesus most loves and wants from humanity is 'valid sacraments' and 'proper liturgy'?

@nf8367

5 ай бұрын

He wants us to partake of His body and blood. John 6. No other church offers the true body and blood.

@Crucian1

5 ай бұрын

@@nf8367 Although it may be about the Eucharist, it's clear from the rest of John 6 that to 'eat his flesh and drink his blood' means to believe in his atoning death. Is that the only Biblical support you could find for the idea that what Jesus wants most from us is 'valid sacraments' and 'proper liturgy'? Nobody honestly reading the New Testament would come to that conclusion. Clearly what Jesus wants most from us is to repent of our sins and have faith in his propitiatory death for us, and to live a life of love and forgivness like he did.

Oh yikes, about to watch but Castaldo's book "The unfinished Reformation" contained a bunch of unjustified ad-libbing nonsense about Catholicism. Albiet snuck in amongst some good presentations of Catholicism. Ironically his mischaracterization of Catholicism was one of the key movers for my wife to convert! So I guess I should thank him for that 😁😁.

@aadschram5877

5 ай бұрын

There is an interesting article on the website of Called to Communion : "Holy Church: Finding Jesus As a Reverted Catholic; A Testimonial Response to Chris Castaldo"

@catholicconvert2119

5 ай бұрын

They’re liars and frauds all three

I certainly appreciate your Candor and Peaceful demeanor. With regards to the Holy Theotokos, as Early Christians would not have had the level of cognizance that we do after a 2000 year history. This would be akin to their early wrestling with ripples and all regarding the divinity and humanity of our Lord, the Trinity, etc... The fact that the Apostolic Churches (Orthodox, Oriental, & Latin) maintain a consistent values, honor, and faith beliefs attest unto itself her dormition/assumption is a cognitive and experiential discovery with the same level of validity as other central beliefs regarding our Lord which have taken centuries to be sorted out through the Holy Councils. Our Lord gave us a Church with Holy Apostles (Apostolic Tradition & Succession) who gave us the Scriptures (New Testament). It is this same Apostolic Sucession that have sorted out also in Holy Councils the core beliefs of the Christian Faithful in regards to the Holy Theotokos. In short, veneration of the saints does not have clear Hellenistic precedents where it would be reasonable to assume that Greek Pagans influenced Gnostic Christians who then influenced mainstream Christians. Rather, it appears more reasonable to assume the Gnostics simply imported orthodox beliefs and tried to make it fit with their own esoteric and Hellenized view of the Christian religion. This is the same thing Gnostics did with Pythagoreanism, Platonism, and eastern mystery religions. The preceding is a profound point if one has a thorough understanding of what Gnosticism really is. Mary first appears in Jesus' infancy narratives of the New Testament. Matthew and Luke present Mary as a young devout Jewish woman. While betrothed to Joseph, God selected and blessed her to birth Israel’s Messiah. After Jesus birth, Mary appears in Jesus’ ministry and the early Church, albeit as a minor figure. Acts 1:13-14: 13 When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. The earliest known Marian prayer is the Sub tuum praesidium, or Beneath Thy Protection, a text for which was rediscovered in 1917 on a papyrus in Egypt dated to c. 250. The papyrus contains the prayer in Greek and is the earliest known reference to the title Theotokos (confirmed by the Council of Ephesus in 431): Conclusion. Honest Protestants already concede that we have 1,800 year old recorded evidence of Orthodox Marian doctrines. In fact, most of these documents are in fact older than the earliest Christian discussions pertaining to the Trinity and Biblical Canon. This compels one to ask on what consistent grounds can one reject Orthodox Marian doctrines as part of early Church practice, but not reject the Biblical Canon or Christology the same, visible body of Christian ascribed to explicitly at a later date? There are no such grounds. This is why when many Protestants on their way to Constantinople or Rome confront the “hurdle” of the veneration of the saints, they make one of two decisions: accepting the doctrine begrudgingly or abandoning the whole Christian religion. Why? If we cannot trust the Church to understand the doctrine of prayer at such an early date, then we surely cannot trust them to get the Canon or Christology right. And, if that’s the case, than the very foundation of orthodox Protestantism is shattered. What we have left is a free for all where Gnosticism, Unitarianism, and Mormonism now are all on a level playing field. Without being within the stream of Christian history, we are divorced from the consciousness of our brothers and sisters in Christ throughout the ages. These are the same men and women who died for the faith, hand-copied the Scriptures, and persevered in the faith by the grace of the Holy Spirit. To separate ourselves from these men and women is to deny the work of the Spirit in them, and in so doing schism rejects the Holy Spirit with it. For this reason, defending historical Marian doctrine is so important. (Acts 1:12-14) Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk from the city. When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. Council of Ephesus: In 431The Council denounced Nestorius' teaching as erroneous and decreed that Jesus was one person (hypostasis), and not two separate persons, yet possessing both a human and divine nature. The Virgin Mary was to be called Theotokos, a Greek word that means "God-bearer" (the one who gave birth to God). Revelation 12:1-6: A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. The Nican Mopohua: “his name was Juan Diego, he lived in Cuauhtitlán, as they call it, 5 and in all the things of God he belonged to Tlatelolco.” 6 “It was Saturday, not yet dawn, he was coming in pursuit of God and His commandments. 7And as he drew near the little hill called Tepeyac, it was beginning to dawn. 8“There he heard singing on the little hill, like the song of many precious birds. When their voices would stop, it was as if the hill were answering them. Extremely soft and delightful, their songs exceeded those of the coyoltototl and the tzinitzcan and other precious songbirds.” 9“Juan Diego stopped to look. He said to himself «By any chance am I worthy, have I deserved what I hear? Perhaps I am only dreaming it? Perhaps I'm only dozing? 10 Where am I? Where do I find myself? Is it possible that I am in the place our ancient ancestors, our grandparents, told us about: in the land of the flowers, in the land of corn, of our flesh, of our sustenance, perhaps in the land of heaven?»” 11“He was looking up toward the top of the hill, toward the direction the sun rises from, toward where the precious heavenly song was coming from. ” 12“And then when the singing suddenly stopped, when it could no longer be heard, he heard someone calling him, from the top of the hill, someone was saying to him: 'Dear Juan, dearest Juan Diego'. 13“Then he dared to go to where the voice was coming from, his heart was not disturbed and he felt extremely happy and contented, he started to climb to the top of the little hill to go see where they were calling him from. 14And when he reached the top of the hill, he beheld a Maiden standing there, 15 She called to him to come close to her.” 16“And when he reached where she was, he was filled with admiration for the way her perfect grandeur exceeded all imagination: 17her clothing was shining like the sun, as if it were sending out waves of light. 18And the stones, the crag on which she stood, seemed to be giving out rays 19like precious jades, like jewels they gleamed. 20The earth seemed to shine with the brilliance of a rainbow in the mist. 21And the mesquites and prickly pear and the other little plants that are generally up there seemed like quetzal feathers. Their foliage looked like turquoise. And their trunks, their thorns, their prickles, were shining like gold.” 22“He prostrated himself in her presence, listened to her venerable breath, her venerable words, which were extremely affable, extremely noble, as if from someone who was drawing him toward her and loved him. 23She said to him: «Listen my son, my youngest son, Juanito, where are you going?» 24And he answered her: «My Lady, my Queen, my Little Girl, I am going as far as your little house in Mexico Tlatelolco, to follow the things of God that are to us given, that are taught to us by those who are the images of the Lord, Our Lord, our priests.»” Troparion Our Lady of Guadalupe: When you appeared in the New World, O Theotokos, you fixed your image on Juan Diego's rose-laden tilma. All the poor, hungry, and oppressed seek you, Lady of Guadalupe. We gaze upon your miraculous icon and find hope, crying out to your Son concealed in your womb: Hear our plea for justice, O most merciful Lord. Kontakion Of Our Lady of Guadalupe: No longer shall the New World lie wounded in useless blood-sacrifice, for she who is clothed with the sun has revealed the Son to us. O Mother of the Americas, imprint his name upon our hearts, just as you wove your image into the cactus cloth.

My Protestant to Catholic journey was nothing like how they described it. I was convicted by the holy spirit of all my sins a couple years ago...it was truly a born again experience and I have been on fire for Jesus ever since. I began looking at all the Protestant denominations and researching what I believed because my non-denom progressive church wasn't where I wanted to be. I cared about governance, unity of belief, spiritual warfare and above all I wanted a biblically oriented church. After a year of searching I was baptized in a Protestant church and suddenly felt the holy spirit call me to look at Catholicism which I had not even thought of before. In fact I would have described myself as anti-Catholic. I'm still shocked God lead me here. I've been Catholic for 9 months and I'm excited at how much my life has changed. Jesus is Lord and I am happy that my church takes that more seriously than most other Christian denominations

@JohnMark61355

5 ай бұрын

I very happy that you found a pathway that brings you closer to Jesus. I have some questions though. Do you believe in Purgatory, and if so, what is the basis of that belief? Do you believe that you can earn Indulgences as described by the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) that helps offset your punishment time in Purgatory? Do you believe in the entirety of Canon Law? For example, Canon Law indicates that if you commit a mortal sin and die without receiving that Sacrament do Reconciliation, you can go to Hell? Do you believe as states in Canon Law that masturbation and missing Mass on Sunday are as serious as rape or murder? I ask that because all four of those sins are listed as mortal sins in Canon Law.

@theproceedings4050

5 ай бұрын

They didn't claim to be exhaustive, and I would caution you to be reflective of the issues that cause the Spirit to move within you. Sometimes we can rush ahead in our haste to obey Him and totally miss what He was asking of us. Have you considered that this conviction was one to deepen your knowledge of your faith and not necessarily one to convert? I don't see that you gave any explanation of why you think the Spirit and your own beliefs combined to result in another conversion so soon after leaving your first church.

@chelseam754

5 ай бұрын

@@theproceedings4050 I definitely was extremely prayerful and led by the spirit because I would never have chosen Catholicism otherwise. It's hard to get into my full testimony via comments on KZread, but in brief God undeniably gave me a sign, after which I took it to quite a few spiritual directors to help me discern. I was very patient and not sure how it would all play out. Until one day it did and it was in a catholic direction. Meanwhile I was very much researching what proper Christian orthodoxy is and getting to know my faith better. I wasn't new to the Bible, but I was new to believing that the traditional Christian views were 💯 true. I had spent 10 years at my last church and it wasn't an easy or quick decision by any stretch

@theproceedings4050

5 ай бұрын

@@chelseam754 I have to trust that God will cause everything to work for your good. Run with Him, not all of us run the same direction, but we all run towards the same finish line. God's peace.

I am very interested to see what this video is all about. Disclaimer, I have not watched it yet, so I’m not fully sure what you cover yet. Disclaimer, born and raised Protestant, in a Baptist church, never heard that communion was the Eucharist, and currently in a sister church of Calvary Chapel born out of the Jesus Revolution. I’ve been in a deep seeking lately that honestly came out of left field, I am not dissatisfied with my faith of walk with the Lord, I’ve been looking into the early church fathers, who I think are often too neglected in most nonliturgical churches, and it’s landed me on the doorstep of an Orthodox Church. My desire is to be faithful to God, His Word, His Church and His leading in my life. I am more upset by the lack of reverence I see in many churches and I think that will push many people to Orthodox and Catholic Churches

@pennyrenewhite

5 ай бұрын

This is exactly what I'm going through but have a hard time articulating it. Thank you 🙏

@hannahbaker3080

5 ай бұрын

@@pennyrenewhite after watching this video yesterday I spent the rest of the day studying Hebrews 10, I watched sermons and 15 minute responses, and was overwhelmed by the relief I felt! Honestly it was enough to make me gain more confidence in Protestantism and more see the dilemmas in Catholic and Orthodox, however I still would love to see more reverence for the Lord as Holy, which I also saw in Hebrews 10. I’ve been leading a Bible study through Hebrews and it was providential I went through chapter 10 last night. I plan on going through Romans and Hebrews pensively and prayerfully.

@pennyrenewhite

5 ай бұрын

@@hannahbaker3080 amen. Fear of the Lord is all over the Bible. I so long for that, too. Everything you say- yes! I'm going to check out that chapter now!

@hannahbaker3080

5 ай бұрын

@@pennyrenewhite I pray it encourages you as it did me!

@catholicconvert2119

5 ай бұрын

YES LEAVE THAT WATERED DOWN PROT BS ASAP

"unity in the message of the gospel". I'm sure Catholics and the Orthodox would affirm that kind of unity as well which means the real question is what is the message of the Gospel and who determines it.

It seemed obvious that not one of the three gentleman involved in this discussion were convinced of pretty much anything they were saying.

I found a non denominational conservative church in 2015 that is really solid...No church is perfect but I haven't noticed the common pitfalls or critiques as touching this local church...really solid Biblical churchband Pastor/elders, congregants on fire for God, lots of fellowship and evangelism, missions, etc.

@catholicconvert2119

5 ай бұрын

It’s not a church it’s a synagogue of Satan

I know it's annoying when someone who isn't putting in the work to make these videos does a recommendation, but I gotta say I would love to see interviews between yourself and non-KZreadr Catholic or EO converts from Protestantism. Digging in to why they converted, seeing if you can find a common thread, and what it looks like for them to make an analysis of that decision. Not with like a deluge of Church Father quotes, but emphasis on the less evidential reasons behind their conversion.

@joeoleary9010

5 ай бұрын

It would be interesting, I agree. But having examined this conversion issue for decades (and not just within Christianity) the precise reason why people convert from one thing to another is tied to a large spectrum of factors, some of them tied to culture, others to history, and many others tied to "feeling."

39:40 We’ve got that too. We even have two parts of the Mass- Liturgy of the WORD and Liturgy of the EUCHARIST.

Great video, 10/10, my only critique is the audio levels: is it possible to raise them up?

I’m new to the Christian faith and I’m drawn to the Orthodox Church but I just can’t reconcile the icon/idol with scripture. I’m studying and reading my Bible (KJV) and practicing a lot of prayer before and after but I really would like to be part of a church that stays with the scriptures

@UWillSee83

5 ай бұрын

The angles depicted on the ark of the covenant were icons too, no?

@mikeyvangelism

5 ай бұрын

I was raised going to old fashioned Baptist churches but left them a few years ago to visit every denomination and sit down with their respective pastors to hear them explain their distinctives. I’ve found Orthodox, by and large, to be the snootiest, looking down on all other denominations, and they’re the only church I’ve ever heard of literally turning a family away from attending their worship service (Matt Whitman). Depending on where you live, there’s bound to be a church or two that practices expository preaching every Sunday. Be careful about thinking you have to find a church that lines up 100% with your views on secondary doctrines. If you find a church you think you could call home, I recommend getting with the pastor to discuss it and get a feel for his grasp on church history.

@CalebPreach4245

5 ай бұрын

Nope lol 😂!! The burden of prove is on you to (1) Prove that they were​. (2) And also prove that this was a practice to be done in churches @@UWillSee83

@m4str8brun50

5 ай бұрын

​One thing has nothing to do with the other. The fact that God never prohibits the making of images, has built images and only prohibited Images of idols and other Gods, does not mean that we should invoke the Saints/Icons.

@theosophicalwanderings7696

5 ай бұрын

@@UWillSee83classic motte and bailey. Nobody prayed to those angelic images on the Ark, nor did they think they were “doorways” to heaven.

I had a chance to discuss my conversion to Catholicism with Chris Castaldo in the home of a mutual friend when I was in college. Though I had very little experience in ecumenical dialogue at the time, he was very patient and gracious with me. Since then, I've learned much more through engagement with my Protestant family and friends. I remain Catholic because the more I learn, the more convinced I am that the Catholic interpretation of Scripture has been correct all along. Many Protestant theologians have recently rediscovered Catholic teaching on, for example, what Paul meant when he wrote about the relationship between faith and works, Peter as the Rock, how the sacraments fit into Covenant Theology, and the nature and structure of the Church that Christ founded. Additionally, John Henry Newman's study of the early Church Fathers remains as convincing as ever: a Magisterial authority has been necessary from the beginning in order to interpret Scripture and the authentic development of doctrine. As a matter of historical fact, Apostolic Succession was indispensable to the early Church as she distinguished orthodoxy from heresy. It remains indispensable today.

@kevinmauer3738

5 ай бұрын

But what if that's the way that Christ established things? The early Church believed it was.

@aadschram5877

5 ай бұрын

@@joeoleary9010 Proof please!

@aadschram5877

5 ай бұрын

Well said!

@kevinmauer3738

5 ай бұрын

Here is a question that I would like to better understand the Protestant answer to. What did the bishops of the First Council of Constantinople believe that they meant when they said that the Church is "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic"? I know of several instances where the Church Fathers before and during the 4th century expressed these terms in terms of communion with the bishops who hold apostolic succession. The Council itself identifies the Bishop of Rome as holding the highest place of honor. Are there any contemporary references to these terms that express a Protestant ecclesiology to the exclusion of the Catholic?

@joeoleary9010

5 ай бұрын

@@kevinmauer3738 Here's a question I'd like Catholics to expound upon: why do you consider a church to be more important than the words of Jesus? It's a serious question.

...we need to push for unity with our pastors/presbyters. Make it an issue. If you believe that the second coming is very close (of which I do), we need there to be 1 unified church with 1 unified message so that it can make the light and the darkness clear.

Some questions about the section, "The Quest For Certainty" at 14:08. To be sure, increasing the amount of texts to be interpreted (e.g. the councils and their documents written by the Catholic magisterium) does not implicitly solve the problem of interpretation (i.e. what is or is not "orthodoxy") as one could interpret those council's documents differently from someone else. However, isn't the natural response of Catholics that these documents can be interpreted by the living authority of the current bishops (i.e. the Magisterium) of the Church? If the Christian layperson has a question about interpreting the council's rulings, can they not appeal to their current priest and even bishop, seeking their guidance in such matters? At this point, one may respond, "Yes, but what if that priest or bishop is at the least mistaken, or at the worst, teaches falsehood with sinful intent?" And of course, this is possible, and happens in any fallen human organization. Nevertheless, the system in which one could arrive at the correct interpretation of Scripture (including what issues are "essential," that is, pertaining to the salvation of one's soul) still exists with a model like the Magisterium. It seems Protestants (of which I am still one) have little answer to the proper interpretation of Scripture. If I appeal to Scripture alone as the sole infallible rule of faith, I'm still left with my own "best guess" (and I do not mean that as a caricature. Again, I'm still a Protestant.) based on my own study of Scripture in light of the educational resources available to me, the time I have/make to study them, and my natural intellectual aptitude. Ultimately, Scripture interpreting Scripture is still based on my own interpretation, or my best guess with as much humility I can attempt to possess by God's mercy and grace. And of course, I could still get it wrong... That doesn't mean I'm "not saved," but I could easily be teaching heresy to my children or others without knowing it (e.g. teaching one way or another about differing doctrines of the Eucharist, Baptism, etc. and their relation to one's salvation). However, in more formal Christian traditions, Catholicism seemingly chief among them in its claims of authority, one can rest in the interpretation of the Scriptures by the Magisterium, even if there are some things they are unclear on, as there is a system in which they can seek further understanding with confidence beyond their own capabilities and access to resources (or lack thereof). Ultimately, the question does seem to come down to interpretive authority. If no such interpretive authority exists except the Scriptures themselves (i.e. Scripture interpreting Scripture), it seems the multiplicity of Protestant denominations dispels claims of Scripture being an end unto itself along with perspicuity. If not, how does one excommunicate effectively heretics such as Arius, etc. who used the Scriptures to bolster their own false teachings? I appreciate anyone with the patience to read my, "thinking aloud" thoughts. I mean them with sincerity and no sense of attacking maliciously either side.

20 minutes, "So just increasing the total amount of texts to read, doesn't solve the problem of certainty". This is a great point. Something I noticed when I entered into Catholic forums is that they rarely just point you to the bible. More Catholics will quote scripture now, but that's because of the protestant influence. I found it baffling the amount of reading they would refer you to. Read the church fathers, read the Catechism, look up the council of Trent or this council or that one, read these books by apologists, priests for bishops. It's an endless amount of study, looking for answers from a certain theological source, rather than THE SOURCE, which is scripture. Yes, we need the Holy Spirit to guide us and we can make errors along the way, but it's a matter of trusting in God, not man. Men were appointed to teach us, that is understood to, but there's a limit to that, because we have to find a balance of trusting in man and trusting in God.

@josephgreen6013

5 ай бұрын

I was particularly struck by that comment as well, but for a different reason- it's complete lack of understanding of what those documents are. Whether it's Church Fathers, Council documents, or Papal writings, they are authoritative interpretations of written Scripture and oral Tradition; which together form the Deposit of Faith. They are not, as some Protestant apologists claim, competing rules or deposits of faith.

@joecoolmccall

5 ай бұрын

​@@josephgreen6013I am a Protestant but found the comment rather uncharitable.

@unitewithch

5 ай бұрын

@@josephgreen6013 So what happens when many of these writings either contradict each other or contradict scripture? If anyone who’s not a full time scholar had to study most of these to the degree required to be confident in their doctrinal knowledge seems to me to be a never ending well.

@josephgreen6013

5 ай бұрын

@@unitewithch can you provide examples of these contradictions?

@unitewithch

5 ай бұрын

@@josephgreen6013 use development of doctrine to explain how papal authority was non existent in 1st century?

Spent most of my life in various Protestant denominations, converted to Catholicism about 5 years ago, and I have never for a moment regretted it. There's nothing any Protestant church can offer that isn't infinitely more spiritually rich in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

@Nolongeraslave

5 ай бұрын

Why do you find it necessary to tell us that on this discussion?

@christsavesreadromans1096

5 ай бұрын

@@NolongeraslavePerhaps so he can have others see the truth..

@evanleesmith385

5 ай бұрын

I have the same experience. I have deep love for my Protestant brothers and sisters, on of whom is my wife. But I have never regretted my conversion to the Catholic faith.

@nf8367

5 ай бұрын

Amen. Aint nothin’ like the real thing

@dodleymortune4312

5 ай бұрын

​​@@evanleesmith385 Do you pray to marry, the saints ? Do you believe in most of the catholics teachings that protestants reject ? And if yes how were you convinced that those things were okay ?

There is an interesting article of Casey Chalk on the website of Called to Communion: "Holy Church: Finding Jesus As a Reverted Catholic; A Testimonial Response to Chris Castaldo."

Good written resource that describes the RCC Eucharist practices norms in the medieval church era?

For a group of men who claim Christian unity is an amorphous, invisible concept of proclaiming the same Gospel, there is a lot of concern about losing your followers to other groups within the same amorphous, invisible unity... and a lot of angst surrounding the possibility that Catholics are part of in in the first place.

@pedroguimaraes6094

5 ай бұрын

Catholicism do has a somewhat corrupt Gospel and a lot of unbiblical practices but salvation is found in the Gospel, nevertheless. The word Church comes from the greek word Ekklesia, which means an assembly of people gather for a pourpose (you can verify it). In Matthew 18:20, Jesus says "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, i am there among them". So, the Church Jesus found is a people, the assembly of believers who are United to Him by faith and this includes Catholics. Howerver, with the Catholic Church having so many problems and with more Biblical options, It actually generates concern.

@josephgreen6013

5 ай бұрын

@pedroguimaraes6094 thanks for your response. I have a couple of questions, based on your points. First, how is the Catholic Gospel corrupted, or in any way different from the Protestant Gospel? Second, what unbiblical practices do Catholics have that disqualifies them from being part of the Church? Third, how does Christ's instruction for dealing with sinful Christians in Matthew 18:15-17 square with an invisible, amorphous unity as professed by the various Protestant communities that exist today?

@pedroguimaraes6094

5 ай бұрын

@@josephgreen6013 These are good questions and I should start by saying that I am not a Protestant minister, but I will explain my position. 1) For me the idea that we are saved by Faith AND by Works is a corruption of the Gospel in which salvation throughout the Bible is presented as being an Unmerited Grace of God, by Faith Alone and through the Work of Christ alone . You can quote James if you want, but James does not contradict what Paul said so many times and it is clear, when read in context, that he talks about justification before others (evidence of salvation/of a true faith) and not about how we are justified before God. The idea that the Eucharist is a repetition of Christ's sacrifice is an aberration. 2) Many practices and doctrines: Seventh-day Mass, Indulgences, papal infallibility when speaking ex Cathedra, placing ecumenical councils and the magisterium in the same position of authority as the Bible, asking for intercession from Saints, praying to angels, the doctrine of the Immaculate conception of Mary and that she ascended to heaven, deny wine because they believe that the blood of Christ really is there, mortal sins. Despite all this, note that I did not say in my previous comment that Catholics are not part of the Church, but precisely the opposite. I said they are. 3) At no point in the Bible is the Church is presented as a single institution. The Church, both in the meaning of the term and in the way it is presented, is a people united by Faith in Jesus Christ. This does not mean that the Church should not organize itself, as it was often organized under the leadership of the apostles and by the appointment of leaders (presbyters, bishops and deacons), but there simply is no sense that it is a single institution, much less that possessed some form of infallibility.

@dodleymortune4312

5 ай бұрын

​@@josephgreen6013 I will answer your questions with my understanding, he can answer also after. 1- some catholics believe that salvation is not by faith alone but also with works. They dont believe that good works and sanctification is sign of a true disciple who IS really saved by faith but that the works themselves saves the person in addition to its faith. 2- Those who pray to the dead, worship others than God, like Marry, are in direct opposition to the first commandment, and if they were in communion with God, if they believe in Jesus Christ and have his Spirit in them, it would be a sin that he would convict them about. The very first commandment to have no other god, and to worship no one else. 3- This commandment of Jesus is reffering to the local church, when a brother sin against you, you tell him one by one, if do not listen you speak with him before the authorities of the church and if still do not listen, you speak with him before the assembly. All this in a patient progression to show mercy toward one another. It's not saying to take the brother before the whole Church worldwide assembly of all believer, but their personal church.

@DavidJ329

5 ай бұрын

@@pedroguimaraes6094 I don't understand this point, are you saying the Church is invisible? if the Church is just where two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus then why did Jesus say in the verses right before to take disagreements to the "Church". Anyway the context for these verses is about sinful Christians and how to deal with it. Seems to be a clear hierarchal structure needed here. Whether or not you think that is the Catholic Church or not. (Not a Catholic btw)

Im a protestant because i have a deep hope that the lord won't just save those who are strong The kinds that keep themselves clean always I look at the cross and i ask myself Did the lord christ sacrifice all this Suffer this much To save only the strong? Make no mistake in catholicism it would take alot more strength for the average person Or will the lord save all who beleive in his name Those who struggle with faith and sin Those who are weak Exceedingly weak

@catholicconvert2119

5 ай бұрын

Dude you have to actually become holy sorry. Yeah it’s not easy I’m not either. But pretending you don’t isn’t much different than how now gay people want to just be gay and not admit it’s a sin.

@yuunoaboi21

5 ай бұрын

@catholicconvert2119 and in your view are they saved? If they profess to beleive in the Lord Jesus Christ They beleive they are sinners and need the Lord They beleive he raised from the dead Do you beleive they are not saved? Is perfection required for salvation? Did the Lord go to the cross only thinking about those who would be perfect?

@catholicconvert2119

5 ай бұрын

@@yuunoaboi21 He said be perfect it can’t get more clear. Now may he have mercy ? We hope so. But the standard can’t be compromised

@yuunoaboi21

5 ай бұрын

@catholicconvert2119 am i to assume that youre missing a hand a leg and an eye then? Because if perfection is the goal certainly losing these things would be more advantageous and his own followers were far less than perfect You hold the standard of perfection but dont see how hopeless that standard is Better to not even be born by those standards

@catholicconvert2119

5 ай бұрын

@@yuunoaboi21 we can reach it after death in purgatory

I think for sure many converts are converting, because of the increasing number of Protestant churches accepting heresy’s. Most Protestant churches are lacking in taking their faith seriously. My husband and I are converting not sure where yet, because our church is allowing a woman to baptize. We are also wanting something that is not just treating Christianity like a fun social club. Also, not getting challenged or fed.

I found the holy spirit in a non denominational pentecostal protestant church..thank you lord

From what I’ve seen, it seems like the big draw is strong tradition and the beauty of these churches. We’re seeing much more progressivism invading protestant churches than RCCs and EOCs(probably no progressivism at any EO church). A big reason why people are rejecting the world is because they see the evils of progressivism. Its quite disheartening to find that the one place that should be separate from the world is trying to become more like the world. I am still a protestant because there are certain theological differences that I don’t see as justifiable.

@fynix.

5 ай бұрын

💯

@triplea6174

5 ай бұрын

Eo has virtually no forms of progressivism in their churches from my visits. It does add/benefit them when they claim they have the fullness/true church. Havent converted yet but it is something ive noticed as well.

I'm an orthodox christian because it possesses the fullness of the faith for 2000 years. Supposing the protestant Christian community only started in 1500s. Aswell as there late doctrines on sola fide sola sciptura and many other doctrines. That were not apostolic but literally man made doctrines

@saintejeannedarc9460

5 ай бұрын

That's the claim. Do you not think being a Christian, living by biblical sources, w/ God's holy word as your source is apostolic? Do the apostles not teach clearly in the gospels and epistles, or do the traditions every since the bible count for more than the actual word of God?

@dodleymortune4312

5 ай бұрын

There were protestants ( Christians who protested against the catholics and orthodox false doctrines) in all times, they just did not have the reach that Luther, Calvin did. There were Anabaptists for example who were not catholics and many other groups.

@ilovechrist914

5 ай бұрын

@@joeoleary9010 if you know anything about Eastern orthodoxy. Don't bother trying to rebuttel anything, to answer your first question toll houses are not doctrines of the church, the prophecies of saints in early church. They are holy so we take then seriously but they can also be wrong, so even though man saints and fathers of the church talk about toll houses you can still be orthodox and not care about toll houses or even believe it as it contributes nothing to one's salvation. Like the made up rapture theory late 1800s made up by John Darby sure as a protestant you probably believe it maybe not but in your world view you just choose what u think your interpretation of what you think is true based on your own authority as your not bound by anything or anyone. 2nd answer venerating an icon is nothing that showing love for the holy people who have gone before us. The great cloud of witnesses that have run the good race. I'm sure you kiss your mum. So we kiss and show honour to the people in heaven who are alive and with God. This is the tradition of the church. Should look up the orthodox iconoclasm and teach your self. Same with fasting schedules really are ancient holy times of the year we participate in with the life of the church. You will see many many protestants come orthodox or catholic. Because people will see the truth and come home. Lord jesus christ son of God have mercy on us

@SmilingCamperVan-fn4em

4 ай бұрын

You become an idolater so sad

Dr. Ortlund, I hope you'll schedule a private, weekly zoom call with Trent Horn. I think he can help you across the Tiber.

I wish they had spent more time addressing the unity issue. The church might be invisibly unified, but the calls for church unity in the New Testament seem to be directed to the physical, visible communities. Sharing the same name is one way the Bible describes the spiritual reality of oneness, and it definitely seems that Protestant churches are physically amd spiritually divided by all their denominations.

@geoffjs

5 ай бұрын

No unity without sacrificial worship

I wish this book existed 12 years ago, when I converted to Orthodoxy. I was very resistant to conversion for many many months - couldn’t focus in class, couldn’t sleep at night, but exactly zero Protestants in my life had any historical awareness whatsoever, and there were no answers to my questions. I fully fell for the EO version of Church History and was eventually chrismated. Now, I’m just not so sure where to locate myself. But this channel has been a true blessing. I’ll be ordering this book tonight 😊

@triplea6174

5 ай бұрын

How are you feeling at the orthodox church so far?

@OMNIBUBB

5 ай бұрын

@@triplea6174 I haven’t been to the Liturgy in about two years. I simultaneously feel very at home and deeply alienated whether I’m in an EO service, or in a modern non-denominational worship service. I don’t really consider myself a Christian at this point, but am always open to exploring. I was genuinely, passionately Orthodox for many years, but I don’t know that I would consider my conversion a good thing, ultimately, on my journey. Really, I wish I realized just how nuanced church history is. EO apologists paint this overly tidy, skewed image of our past. Gavin’s recent videos on icon veneration being an accretion have been very eye-opening, and I really appreciate what he is doing in this area. Perhaps one day, I’ll be reconciled to the EO and re-enter the life of the Church. At the moment, that seems very unlikely, though.

@triplea6174

5 ай бұрын

@OMNIBUBB I see, well, i implore you not to leave christ/Christianity as flawed as it may seem in its unity/confusion. One thing that I know and keeps me centered is that christ is the answer to life, imho mature christians will recognize the spirit in other denoms. I Hope you the best and will pray for your journey as well. Godspeed 🙏