I've never heard such a perfunctory explanation ....

As usual, a great and entertaining video, thanks for your having that great spirit . Regards from Costa Rica.

I think Paul exaggerated the size of a conventional transformer for a 100 watt amp by about 75%. LOL 1:01

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

No actually Paul is famous for using oversized transformers in his products and has explained why .

@Oystein87

3 жыл бұрын

@@leekumiega9268 And still he exaggerated 75%... Even PS Audio does not use that large transformers ;) What he demonstrated would actually be bigger than their complete amps... :P

@lynnpoole7830

3 жыл бұрын

@@leekumiega9268 3:31 LOL

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

@@lynnpoole7830 I think he is showing the size of the toroid in their BHK amplifier.

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

@@lynnpoole7830 Watch Paul explain about the size of the transformer and at 7:25 says to this day they use much oversized transformers.

Great Explanation. Wish I had an instructor like you way back when.

Lyngdorf SDA2175 Power Amp. 650 VA Holmgren Toroidal. 200 RMS=8 375=4 Mines been in the Rack since 2010 and is a keeper. To all the haters 5 mins with my Spendor S8e and you may just change your mind.

This channel is slept on 😞

Switch mode power supplies for audio are spoken of as if they are something new when back in 1979 Bob Carver used a type of switch mode power supply with a tiny transformer ( his magnetic field coil) pulsed by a triac according to demand . This along with being one of only a few designers to use class G rail switching made his of the few amplifiers that were very energy efficient , powerful (has enough current for Magnepans) and is very light for it's power rating.

@bilguana11

3 жыл бұрын

400HZ SMPS have been used in avionics long before Carver.

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

@@bilguana11 Yes but I was talking about use in audio .

@jamesplotkin4674

3 жыл бұрын

Paste that at least 10 more times, so we don't miss your point.

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

@@jamesplotkin4674 What a great idea ,Why didn't I think of that.

You can build class-D amps using (conventional) linear power supplies also. It takes up more space but sounds better especially at lower volume.

@vtrandal

3 жыл бұрын

Like how low? Off?

@TransformerVolumeC

Жыл бұрын

Exactly Johnny seriously you are either very experienced in class-d amps like me or either a genius (not like me). Best sounding class D amp i ever listened to and own was hypex UCd powered by a linear power supply and i can't wait to find how to set a linear PSU either with ICEpower module (the ones with not shitty ice/hypex smps -meanwell smps are way better but still linear is more dynamic more slam) or purifi 1et400a. That with a toroidal Antek and a good linear PSU would be the definitive amplifier but cant find a kit or a guide to connect it right and safe the modules to the linears (probably several voltages ) PSU's. Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and reply. May God bless you

@johnnytoobad7785

Жыл бұрын

@@TransformerVolumeC yea. I built it a few years ago using a 650 va toroidal, 20 amp bridge rect and 4 80 volt caps per rail. I belive the trans was 40-0-40. DC was just under 60 vdc.

They have a switching transformer as they are basically car audio type amps with an additional AC mains input in a fancy box. They could be made with a linear power supply but that would cut into profits and efficiency and I suppose the manufacturers think that if you buy a class D amp you don't really care about switching noise etc in any case what you want most is cool power.

thanks, my question does it sound better for this type class D .

Would using Linear Power Supply to feed power into Digital chip amp have sound benefits...?

I dont know where to ask, so i do here, may be its a interesting question to explain. What amp has a better dampingfactor a class A/B amp or an class D amp, or for this it doesnt matter the class of the amps? So i understand, the higher the dampingfactor, the better the control over the speakers, may be its better with class D amps? THX

60 Hz. in Canada as well.

I have a couple Sony receivers from the 80's that had switch mode power supplies but both power supplies died. I'd like to put a new switch mode power supply into them but I would need something like plus and minus 40 volts with decent current. I haven't found any for sale.

Crown Harmon 6000xti amplifier advertises 6KW RMS output from a 240 VAC 20 amp outlet. Looks like one could weld the seams on the side of a ship using the massive output transistors, so the 6KW seems doable. The wall power into the amplifier tops out at 4.5KW. Is there on over-unity power supply in these class D amplifiers or is there something I am missing?

I never realized this about SMPS. So that is why we have all these tiny power supplies to power our lap tops phones and everything else. Excellent! Problem is they create noise and VARs on the AC lines that mess with all our great linear PS amps so then we have to buy a power plant to get the best out of them.

@analoghardwaretops3976

3 жыл бұрын

insist on SMPS power supplies that have " active power factor correction" control to improve on lowest "VARS".. and those SMPS also featuring " spread spectrum pwm" is better on the noise front..

@user-od9iz9cv1w

3 жыл бұрын

@@analoghardwaretops3976 Good to know. I would hope all the laptops around the house have that?

I Am not sure that answers the question. Why not use switching supply in a class A or B amp

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

Bob Carver did that in 1979 with his (magnetic field coil amplifiers) They were extremely light and energy efficient.

@octilliondollars

3 жыл бұрын

Manley is now using switching supplies on most of their gear. The difficulty that they had was that tubes need high voltages which these don't typically supply.

@analoghardwaretops3976

3 жыл бұрын

@@octilliondollars standard.. SMPS. , even for speciality SMPS manufacturers.. probably would not even have such a design in their lists..leave aside products.. hi- volts p.s. for valve amps calls for diff. magnetic core formfactor.., wire gauge.. etc.. an amp designer requiring such would be better.. doing all this with his own power specialist team..& not out sourced..

@octilliondollars

3 жыл бұрын

@@analoghardwaretops3976 Well Manley hired Bruno Putzeys to design their SMPS since he's one of the leading engineers in class D amps for audio (founding companies like Hypex, Grimm, and Kii)

@analoghardwaretops3976

3 жыл бұрын

@@octilliondollars right...Bruno.. formerly with Philips.. & the co's you mentioned , besides others are all involved in Class D designs for some of their products.... Sw. mode p.s. design technology & expertise is a different field ..no doubt today many Class D engg. can understand it well..not many can design a robust& reliable one as a through & through expert perhaps could... though the other way around ..it would be a real advantage..when the SMPS specialist. becomes knowledgeable and has interest in doing his own class D experiments

Ive been shopping for ICEpower modules recently and asking myself this exact question! Wow..

@AllboroLCD

3 жыл бұрын

@@Wizardofgosz PE only seems to carry the last gen IP amps right now, id like to either build 2 sep monoblocks or build 2 modules into one chassis. Then maybe doll it up down the road with maybe some VU meters or even integrate a tube buffer stage. My ultimate curiosity is how well does a barebones IP amp compare to a big brand implementation of the same amp.

One more difference is that my 1970's heavy transformer amps are still working today...

@mudza6002

3 жыл бұрын

Are you implying new transformers stop working faster? That magnetic permeability degrades?

@thebigmacd

3 жыл бұрын

@@mudza6002 implying that increased power density decreases longevity of the components of the switching power supply.

@mudza6002

3 жыл бұрын

@@thebigmacd power density? what are you talking about?

@thebigmacd

3 жыл бұрын

@@mudza6002 handling more power in a smaller space. Modern SMPS tend to be built a lot closer to max power ratings than big old oversized equipment. It sounds like you are being obtuse.

@mudza6002

3 жыл бұрын

@@thebigmacd Power density is not the proper way to refer to that, anyways, SMPS are built closer to max power ratings because of their same nature, since they work at much higher frequencies, they don't have to handle the same power spikes you find in a classical transformer, so there is less need for leeway. This doesn't necesarilly reflect on a lower lifetime unless we are refering to extremes. And no, I'm not being obtuse, in this case where the term power density doesnt apply, you could also be refering to power dissipated, which is lower in SMPS or energy stored in the caps and transformers, which is also lower in SMPS due to the higher operating frequency.

How do you grow these sprouts? Mine are small, green, round, and have no transformer

0:50 how about ESD precautions? 😅

Ive heard that the large transformers are better for bass. Would like to hear about how they effect the output.

@ThinkingBetter

3 жыл бұрын

Bass needs more power but that power can also come from a SMPS with a small transformer. One of my subwoofers runs a SMPS inside and can do 3,300 Watts. SMPS is especially great for bass.

@marcusm5127

3 жыл бұрын

It's half true. Switch mode power supplies usually have smaller rectifier capacitors because the frequency is high so they are refilled often. On transformers the manufacturer knows you need big caps to keep a steady DC while the signal is low half a cycle. At 50 Hz for EU the signal is low for 1/(50 * 2) = 10 ms which sounds like a short while but when you are drawing a 100 W that is one Joule if energy you need to give without dropping in voltage. I bought a Hypex smps 1200a400 and it's decent size caps but if I build a transformer Powe supply I would put the biggest caps I could fit in the box. So switch mode is great but they could make them better.

@analoghardwaretops3976

3 жыл бұрын

@@marcusm5127 basically in SMPS.. the (primary side mostly) switchingpower transistor/s are sort of protected....either one way.. 1) (peak current limited) 2) (average current limited) 3) ( voltage control mode.. this may or may not have. pk. c.l.).. this probably limits current draw( @ very high levels @ low frequencies)..which by inherent ( protection) design may cause a drop in DC volts delivered to the power amp modules.... There is no such current limiting in standard linear power supplies..

@marcusm5127

3 жыл бұрын

@@analoghardwaretops3976 It's not an active protection but the linear powersuply is limited by the frequency and capacitors. If the since wave is zero your rectifier caps/output caps are the only thing keeping your voltage up. The refill rate is much more limited as you say in a smps but just buy a powerful smps and you will get good refill speed. I haven't tried running my Hypex smps1200a400 at full crank with a Oscilloscope yet but I might give it a try. Audiophiles dislike smps because they are complex and unpredictable. A heavy toroidal transformer and massive caps are always good. A 2 kg smps might be better but could be worse and previously it most definitely was.

@analoghardwaretops3976

3 жыл бұрын

@@marcusm5127 I did not quite get it.. when you replied.. " it's not an active protection.." please ..what are you referring to..that I don't understand..??

so what is the purpose of big amplifiers?

My class D stereo power amplifier is one of the rare ones that doesn't have a Switch Mode Power Supply (SMPS) Instead it has dual linear power supply's (one for the left channel and one for the right channel) plus a massive toroidal transformer.

@nodammit

3 жыл бұрын

Just curious, what brand/model is it? And what are your impressions? My class D has two large toroidal transformers, which results in a 60lb class D amp! H2O S250 Signature...it powers 1 ohm Apogee Scintilla's without effort. My old Classe CA-300 (300 watt/Channel, 87lbs) struggled with the same speakers.

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

@@nodammit If it really is class D I'll bet if is it's rare indeed to be able to drive 1 ohm speakers as most class D can't.

@Oystein87

3 жыл бұрын

@@leekumiega9268 Not that rare for a Class D to drive 1ohm speakers.... ;) And it's actually quite common in car audio to use Class-D amps and drive 1ohm or some even 0,5ohm sub setups.

@f430ferrari5

3 жыл бұрын

@@Oystein87 why bother comparing home vs car audio. PS Audio is for home gear not car gear. Class D is fine for car audio and professional usage like for DJ’s and concerts. I guess some just want really loud music for home also but most home speakers and designs and usages don’t even bother to go to 1 or 2 ohm loads so why bother with a capability that most likely most will not even go there.

@Oystein87

3 жыл бұрын

@@f430ferrari5 Not comparing.. Telling that it's normal for Class D to handle 1ohm or lower. So it depends on how the amp is made... Class D is fine for home audio also.. That's why almost every company makes them for home audio. Including PS Audio.. What does this have to do with loud music? I think you missunderstand a bit here... Some speakers just have a low impedance even if they are not built to play loud. It's rare but they excist. And the most important reason: I.e a 4ohm speaker can easy dip well below 2ohm so it's actually kinda crusial that a amp handles atleast down to 2ohms. Lower is even better.

My Spectron Musician II class D switching amp - 500wpc - has a toroidal transformer that weighs more than I do. (almost)

@Jack96993

3 жыл бұрын

Hey l have the Spectron musical MK ll amp also and love it unless l have to lift it! I'm l crazy that l love the sound of this amp as much as l do??? I just love all it's unadulterated power that it can feed my Maggie's Maybe my ARC LS15 tube amp helps the sound quality

Hi paul, can SMPS power supplies be used to power regular bulky transformer based class AB and H amplifiers?

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

At this point hate to mention it again but that is what Bob Carver did.

@analoghardwaretops3976

3 жыл бұрын

@@leekumiega9268 Was it like today's SMPS..?? more likely it seemed to me a mains powered( primary side) 50/60 Hz "music signal operated" variable phase control boost from minimum to a limited max.of 90° firing angle..

The positive thing is that it saves you a lot of amount on your monthly energy bill.

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

Switch mode power supplies for audio are spoken of as if they are something new when back in 1979 Bob Carver used a type of switch mode power supply with a tiny transformer ( his magnetic field coil) pulsed by a triac according to demand . This along with being one of only a few designers to use class G rail switching made his of the few amplifiers that were very energy efficient , powerful (has enough current for Magnepans) and is very light for it's power rating. His later design with Sunfire was class H, rail TRACKING that although it's class AB it is as efficient as class D. 1

@swinde

3 жыл бұрын

@@leekumiega9268... Doesn't the "Magnetic Field Amplifier" pull considerably more power from the wall?

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

@@swinde Only when needed ,think of a large bucket with a large adjustable spigot on the output but being filled at a constant rate ,this is analogous to a standard power supply with the bucket being the capacitor in a linear supply and with high demand the bucket runs low. In a magnetic field coil design it is more analogous to the bucket being fed from a valve from a fire hydrant ,in which case the bucket won't run out ,. therefore it only draws and delivers what it needs but never runs out.

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

@@swinde It can but only briefly when needed to faithfully reproduce the signal while most of the time using much less than a standard design.

@QoraxAudio

3 жыл бұрын

a lot of amount lol.

Not all class D amps use switchmode power supplies.Some class AB amps also don`t use linear supplies but switchmode supplies instead.My HYPEX amps which I built myself use 4 primary linear supplies;one each for left and right input stages,left and right driver output stages.

It's 50w@8ohm or 100w@4ohm. Fully qualify your specs, please.

You missed that class-d is more efficient and also why you use switched on just class-d and not on other types of amps?

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

Switch mode power supplies for audio are spoken of as if they are something new when back in 1979 Bob Carver used a type of switch mode power supply with a tiny transformer ( his magnetic field coil) pulsed by a triac according to demand . This along with being one of only a few designers to use class G rail switching made his of the few amplifiers that were very energy efficient , powerful (has enough current for Magnepans) and is very light for it's power rating. His later design with Sunfire was class H, rail TRACKING that although it's class AB it is as efficient as class D.

@marcusm5127

3 жыл бұрын

The efficiency doesn't really matter. A class A at full crank is also efficient but when it's not att max power it's very inefficient. Class D is efficient but the power supply needs to be a bit more than full power in any case.

@marcusm5127

3 жыл бұрын

@Lassi Kinnunen 81 Noby scoffs at class A. There is no audio intressted who wouldn't want 1kW pure class A. Usually a full bridge rectifier is used as you see by my doubled frequency.

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

@Lassi Kinnunen 81 What do you mean by center rail ,in class G rail switching you can have a center rail ,otherwise the center is zero volts with a plus and minus some voltage depending on wattage.

@analoghardwaretops3976

3 жыл бұрын

@Lassi Kinnunen 81 any class of amps..AB/ D etc require a "centre rail" ... whenever that amp has one of its loudspeaker terminal at " non live " / zero / common.. potential....{ also known as a Single Ended Push Pull amp ...SEPP } ...whilst the potential @ the other terminal alternates from plus to minus & back..whereas in " BRIDGED" / symmetrical mode the "centre rail" may or may not be necessary.. it's the amp. designer's decision..

I will guess that the reason the amp. was in for service was the failure of the switching power supply. I prefer a class A/B amp. with a huge transformer.

@andydelle4509

3 жыл бұрын

Hah! So true.

I wonder is why they barely have cooling... I mean I know their efficient can be even higher than 90% if very well design, but let's say something packing 500W is still 500W of heat and sometimes they use ridiculously small coolers, does the transistor or MosTet's simply can take a huge amount of heat without breaking? I have a 80's Technics Class A receiver single small rail size and it's supposed to be 2x50W but the screen shows 100W and probably goes beyond with the dynamics ruined of course but still sounding good until a good loud point and it has a damn ridiculous sized cooler, it has a full copper tube thicker than the ones on my current fridge and then a big aluminium heatsink. I know efficiency is way smaller than the digital amp, however it's still 4 or more times bigger biffier cooler than a 2x 100W digital amp, so it have nothing to do with just the efficiency as the cooler it miles bigger than the efficiency difference between this class A and a similar power modern Class D amp.

@analoghardwaretops3976

3 жыл бұрын

If you mean to say "500W of output power from an 90% efficient system..I assume it's tha Poweramp section that's @90% efficiency.. that translates to approx. 45 Watts of heat dissipation from the amp...that may become an issue @ 500W continuous after 1.5-2 hrs.. probably you don't listen continously @ that level for that long a time period.... some amps have their cooling fans coming on after exceeding some prefixed temp. .. others may " vary their air flow" depending on rate or rise of temp.

The new Parasound classic 200 is a class D amp..

why Hifi brands don't use the speakon connector?

@FatalethaL

3 жыл бұрын

Because Speakon connector ain't pleasing the Hi-Fi crowd! But seriously - Speakon is highly functional, but Hifi plugs/connectors are far more beautiful looking.

@humanitech

3 жыл бұрын

@@FatalethaL but I imagine, if hifi manufacturers did get involved... they'd bling and make 'em out of cryogenic unobtainium...and charge a fine old penny or two lol

So why don't you do the same thing with class AB amps and save on the cost of large transformers?

@ThinkingBetter

3 жыл бұрын

Cause audio is a very conservative industry and the myth of an SMPS is too noisy with out of band noise is still alive. Rather, there are benefits using an over-specified SMPS as you can regulate the power rails and thus avoid the argument for an external power plant box.

@hugobloemers4425

3 жыл бұрын

Sony did that in the early 80's with the TA-AX5 (that was kind of a test bed for lots of innovations) and the TA-AX6 (that was otherwise more conventional) they where both quite unreliable as well for that power supply. I had a TA-AX5 and it sounded good while it lasted.

@hom2fu

3 жыл бұрын

read here at guitar guys. www.mercurymagnetics.com/how-transformers-affect-your-amps-sound-and-feel/ The power transformer is the first step in building tone and in setting the standard of performance that the tubes and output transformer utilizes. The power transformer is also a major contributor for the overall feel of the amp. Such as punch through (the oomph factor), note attack, a perceived larger/wider soundstage presence and most importantly, the speed or reaction time of the amp’s audible response to the player’s sense of touch and playing technique. b/c i learn guitar in the past. have you ever heard rock stars said i like this amp because of the sound.

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

Switch mode power supplies for audio are spoken of as if they are something new when back in 1979 Bob Carver used a type of switch mode power supply with a tiny transformer ( his magnetic field coil) pulsed by a triac according to demand . This along with being one of only a few designers to use class G rail switching made his of the few amplifiers that were very energy efficient , powerful (has enough current for Magnepans) and is very light for it's power rating. And it was class AB. 1

@user-od9iz9cv1w

3 жыл бұрын

You could, but typically they sound like crap. When you are looking for that last little bit of sonic performance you can improve the sound with a really good linear power supply on every rail. This even goes for the computer that is running the streamer in your digital setup. People will argue that it is now possible to build really good switching PS and linear no longer necessary. Probably true, but for me there is something just perfect about big iron and lots of filtering caps and some chokes. Weighs a ton, costs a bunch and it just sounds sweet.

If you look at how CLASS-D works vs CLASD-AB then most of the transformer's watts go to sound in class-d while on class-ab a lot goes to heat. So if you are going to have 100 watts out of both, class-ab need larger transformer than the class-d needs. LED. bulb is class-d and incandescent bulb is class-ab If you are going to buy a cheap amplifier then class-ab provides better sound quality than cheap class-d does! but you need to have bigger power supply on class-ab.

So if you have like 20 large old class A or AB junk amplifiers, you can remove (or leave in) the power supplies, and use them to tie down a huge blimp.

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

While class D has mostly caught up with class AB in many respects (very few can drive really low impedance speakers Like ones of 1 or 2 ohms) , And I doubt they will ever match a good class A amp sound wise.

@mikeday62

3 жыл бұрын

@@leekumiega9268 Yes, I still respect A and AB amplifiers. Plenty of music lovers will prefer them for decades to come. I don't expect class D to make them obsolete. My new Crown class D amp is really nice though. It sounds great with a tube preamp, and weighs only nine pounds. My 65 year old bad back can barely lift that much anymore.

@f430ferrari5

3 жыл бұрын

@@mikeday62 I haven’t moved my Class AB amps in 15 years and I don’t plan on moving again. The one thing I don’t like about Crown amps is that they look cheap. Crown has the reputation as a DJ amp. It will probably forever stuck with them. Class D is great for professional mobile usage because they are so light to carry and deliver power and just need to play loud. Class D is also good for car audio too since you can get lots of power and don’t have to sacrifice weight and size.

@duken4evr

3 жыл бұрын

@@mikeday62 The XLS and a tube preamp is an interesting combo. Zero Fidelity has a good review of the Crown amp, it sounds very good and ya can't argue about it's ability to output a ton of power.

@mikeday62

3 жыл бұрын

@@duken4evr Yes I watched Sean's review of the xls 2502. Paul McGowan's PS Audio makes amplifiers that have a tube preamp with a class D power section in the same chassis. This type of arrangement has become fairly common in recent times.

simple answer...because they're more efficient.

@vikassm

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks 😂

With such small transformers I wonder if class D amps suffer from transformer envy....

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

It's not the size it's how well you use it.

It’s alternating plus to minus...plus to minus...one hour later...I got it 😊 Anyway, why not use an over-specified SMPS for a class A or B amplifier to avoid power issues and get regulated stable power rails? Yes, it needs some careful design concerning it’s out of audio band noise.

@graxjpg

3 жыл бұрын

His wagging finger put me in a trance... plus... to minus.... plus.......... to minus............

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

Switch mode power supplies for audio are spoken of as if they are something new when back in 1979 Bob Carver used a type of switch mode power supply with a tiny transformer ( his magnetic field coil) pulsed by a triac according to demand . This along with being one of only a few designers to use class G rail switching made his of the few amplifiers that were very energy efficient , powerful (has enough current for Magnepans) and is very light for it's power rating. 1

@Oystein87

3 жыл бұрын

@@leekumiega9268 Yeah, we know it's old. But it's been a few decades for them to be good enough for amps. So it's old tech but new and improved.

@joshua43214

3 жыл бұрын

There is no need for regulated power rails in class A. All regulating the power rail will do is lower the power available to amp circuit, while generating more heat. The transient demand on the power supply is much different between class A, and class D. A class D amp will demand a sudden surge in power during a transient, while a class A will demand almost nothing extra. This is because in a class A amp, what is not being turned into music, is being turned into heat - it runs constantly at near peak. Class D on the other hand only demands what it needs at the moment, so transients require transient power. SMP's run at high frequency, so they can meet this demand quickly, to do this with a linear power supply requires a large pool of energy in the form of (large) capacitors. In a class A amp, a very large transient will result in a slight reduction in rail voltage, which is not an issue. You mains power probably drifts around more than the transient demand is.

@ThinkingBetter

3 жыл бұрын

@@joshua43214 The reason people add a power plant is to allow isolation of the power amp from the mains power that can fluctuate and have noise due to load conditions not just by the amp itself. A SMPS can enable higher power for the same cost and allow low loss regulation to keep a class A amplifier power rails independent on mains power fluctuation. Yes, of course the argument is even higher with a class D amp or class B amp where the power rail load varies much more. But with a SMPS regulation is done through the PWM thus heat is not a concern.

Most of the amplifiers use transistors . Mainly transistors have 3 regions . Cutoff , active , saturated. To work all the analog amplifiers transistors should be in active region . Otherwise audio clips . When a transistor stays in active region it works like a variable resistor . So it dissipate lot of heat . Lot of energy lose as heat . On the other hand digital amps ( class D ) transistors stay on cutoff and saturated . Because it uses PWM . Dissipate less heat and lot less power loss . Efficiency is higher than analog ams . So powering those amps also need small power supply. But in audio quality analog ams are better .

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

Actually transistor as well as tubes have a fourth region known as the LINEAR portion of the amplification curve and that is one place where bias comes in to keep them operating in that linear area.

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

@Douglas Blake Inside class D the main workings is pulse width modulation which is pure digital.

@timharig

3 жыл бұрын

@@leekumiega9268 Linear region is a synonym for active region. i.stack.imgur.com/0wIqx.png Biasing is about setting the slope of the load lines (DC and AC, the AC line is not shown) to control its impedance and gain while maintaining the quiescent point (q point) of the transistor to allow maximum swing before entering the non-linear regions (saturation and cutoff).

@timharig

3 жыл бұрын

@Douglas Blake I would tend to disagree. I've heard Paul's take on this that it isn't digital because it doesn't deal with numbers; but, having designed PWM systems before, it is much more akin to designing digital circuits than analog ones. If you see my post above to @Lee Kumiega, you can see what kind of biasing needs to be done for an analog amplifier to create a constant gain curve for range of voltages. When you design for class D, you are deliberately letting the gain fly from cutoff to saturation in an otherwise unstable manner. Furthermore, you are far more concerned with things like rise and fall time of the square waves that are usually the domain of digital circuits. The end result is that it more like designing a high power DAC than a traditional high powered analog amplifier.

@timharig

3 жыл бұрын

@Douglas Blake You think in terms of some nebulous definition of whether a process is digital. I think in terms of the bias characteristics of the circuit. To me an analog circuit is biased so that it can accommodate a continuous range of values around a central quiescent point before going into saturation or cutoff. A digital circuit is one in which there is unbound gain so that there is no stable q-point and the circuit rapidly swings from saturation to cutoff without any steady points in between in a bistable fashion. There is a clearly defined on and off and the uncertainty region between the two has been made as narrow of a tolerance as possible. It doesn't matter what process is used to get that point. At the point the system moves from having a stable central bias to having a bistable bias between it has moved from being analog to being digital.

VELLY INTERESTING 🤔😊😍😍

@ThinkingBetter

3 жыл бұрын

🤔

Not every Class D amps have small power transformers. For instance, in my second system, I have a 100 Watts dual mono Primare I30 with 2 large power transformers and it sounds beautiful, with no harshness at all. It depends of how class D is implemented... By the way, the newer Purifi Class D modules from Bruno Putzeys soud excelent. Class D is here to stay.

@Oystein87

3 жыл бұрын

After what I remember and what I can find I have to correct you a bit: Primare I30 is a Class AB dual mono construction while the Primare I32 is Class D. And reviews say the I30 is better sounding than the I32 because I30 is Class AB and normaly have a warmer sound than Class D.

@Kyle900t

3 жыл бұрын

I have a Primare A30.1 and I think it sounds great aswell. Did you see that Primares new integrated amp the I35 is Class D?

@rasardo1

3 жыл бұрын

@@Oystein87 , I think you're correct. It was my mistake :) The new amplifiers from Primare are all Class D topology. I thought that even the I30 was Class D...

@Oystein87

3 жыл бұрын

@@rasardo1 I had to think when i read your comment so I had to search to be sure myself :P I read that people like the sound better from the class AB amps. I prefer Class D for subs and AB for the rest :P But that's just from some general testing and not REALLY tried over longer time etc. Class D has become better but still it's said to have a bit "colder" sound.

@rasardo1

3 жыл бұрын

@@Oystein87 , your're right. But class D is evolving fast! On my first system, I have a valve preamp and Class AB monoblocks. I like this combo very much. But in Hi-Fi we do have to pair very well the amplification with the loudspeakers, so that we can really extract the very best from both sides.

I would never buy an audio amplifier with a switched mode power supply.

Hmmm

One thing you didn't add is that a traditional transformer losses current for a split second when the magnetic field collapse nothing is passed through what doesn't happen with a smps is that be soft start or hard start switch mode soft start for hi-fi use preferred

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

It is actually the collapse of the magnetic field that Bob Carver used in his (magnetic field coil amplifiers) which was a switching power supply back in 1979.

Buck the boost or be SEPIC.

How does this relate to a car that's between 12.5 and 14.4 volts. And why are a/b amps different from class d. Legit asking for a friend.

Thanks again 69 yr old still learning wishing I had been a bit more studious than partious cant even blame it on the ladies but hormones that I can blame. Not that I wood.haha thanks for helping me learn something every day. My wife says I'm a book of useless knowledge but occasionally she will ask me a question knowing chances are it's in my head stashed away for who knows why. Feels good to be correct even when it's not common knowledge funny how that matters to me. Hmmm.

I love the D class

BUT the switch-mode PS is only HALF the story!......... the other half is that Class-D amps are 90% efficient, rather than around 60% for Class AB. That's why you don't need the massive heat sinks.

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

Class H amplifiers are just as efficient and IMHO sound better ,And Sunfire amplifiers ( use the unvented chassis for the heatsink ) and can drive very low impedance speakers that would fry or trip the overload with most of class D.

@Oystein87

3 жыл бұрын

@@leekumiega9268 I see Class D amps driving 0,5 ohm & 1 ohm subs in cars so depends on the amp if they fry ;P And Class D is 80-95% efficient depending on the load. They can actually dip down to even lower efficiancy if the loads are high. Class H is kinda between Class D and Class AB. Remember I had a Technics Class H amp many years ago. But that was just a weak little crappy reciver so. Fun fact: Technics reciver claimed to be rated 5x100 watts but when I later got a Harman/Kardon rated at only 5x45 watts (2x55 in stereo) it was ALOT more powerful :P Technics had below 300 watts supply and H/K had almost 500 :P I hate fake marketing on power output... I rather just look at how much watts the power supply is :P

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

@@Oystein87 First I'm talking home amplifiers where road and engine noise are not there to mask imperfections played on more resolving home speakers. Class H uses rail tracking and when done right sounds fantastic, Unfortunately Technics is NOT what they used to be - Panasonic's high end line.

@Oystein87

3 жыл бұрын

@@leekumiega9268 Yes, and? You do know the difference is just the voltage? And road and engine noise don't hide anything at high volumes😉 And most competitions for clean car audio sound are done when not moving or engine running.. But it does not change the fact that Class D is very normal in home audio and are capable of driving low impedance if done right. I know what Class H is. I am saying the little reciver I had almost 20 years ago was a weak little amp. It ran out of power quickly. The sound was good but the power supply was a huge joke.

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

@@Oystein87 As far as class D voltage for car systems goes they use they use buck boost circuits to raise the voltage as high as they need .Also the best car speakers and systems go very loud but are not as resolving as the best home speakers can be and can't reveal any shortcomings of car audio. There are many internet forums where even 1000 watt class D amps do a poor job of driving very low impedance speakers ,so I speak of other peoples experience not my own. I am very happy with my 200 watts x7 class H Sunfire AV receiver, Yes because of power supply limitations in a receiver it can deliver only 157 watts x7 with a continuous sinewave. But music is not drawing maximum power except on transients which it can do ,it also can deliver over 450 watts continuous into 4 ohms X2 ,great headroom for stereo listening. This is what a well designed c[ass H amplifier can do. stereotimes.com/amp010500.shtml

But does class D - in its current form - offer long term listening satisfaction? Back in 1996, a number of revievers noted that Krell monoblock amps at that time period eerily sounds like they are largely influenced by 300B output tube based single ended triode amps. Sadly, no side by side comparisons yet - given the last time I've been to a hi-fi show was back in 2019 - between a class D amp and a tube amp design based on the 1957 era Quad II. 🤔

Nowadays in the tech world : "Yours is small, mine is even smaller !!!"

That power amp would do the trick to drive those sweet infinity speakers in the listening room...that your gunna sell me for my generous offer of 500$ ....I cant wait to hear them in my living room😀😀

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

If they are Kappa 9's then NO class D will drive them and survive.

@jonsingle1614

3 жыл бұрын

@@leekumiega9268 Guess Paul will go back to the drawing board 😳

@leekumiega9268

3 жыл бұрын

@@jonsingle1614 His designs will work fine with most speakers out there. For those hard to drive speakers they have the BHK amp.

Why does PS audio buy there sprout from B&o and charge so much money when you can buy a teac with same amp from B&o for half the price .

But I am still waiting to hear the answer to the question.

A small SMPS has nothing to do with the class D amplifier ..... a good shielded one could perfectly serve a traditional class AB amp as well....

Class d amplifiers are overpriced

So... Class D is practically a vfd in that it switches the diodes variably resulting in a square wave simulating a sine wave? It can't possibly sound natural. As a bass player I can say without a doubt there is something about these digital(bass) amps that are lacking harmonically. However, they are a quarter of the weight.

It's that "chopping" that makes 90% of the Class D amplifiers sound like crap.

“Large transformer will sound great, why class D using small transformer?” Because it sound bad

No no no! This answered nothing! You need more than a 5 minute video to answer this question. And you should put the time in to answer this question because it's so important in chosing an amplifier. Your smart enough to break this down into a 20-30 minute video. You should answer this question and the questions akin to it. This answered nothing!