Byron rubbed me wrong because he had such a cult leader vibe that was incredibly intense. His adherents also had a hard dose of group think as well. It just pushed EVERY creep nerve I have. Byron sat there apparently feeding off B5 charity instead of having his people out looking for the resources and planet to move to.

@Lonovavir

5 ай бұрын

That was one of the few times I supported Psi Corps.

@BainesMkII

5 ай бұрын

I didn't think about the impact of wrapping up the civil war story early. Once I started thinking about it, I really could see Byron as written working much better if Sheridan and the station were still caught up in the much larger ongoing and gradually escalating war. Creepy cult leader Byron just doesn't work without that larger ongoing pressure distorting everyone's views until it is too late. With the war, the entire telepath story and its characters needed a complete rethink.

@MrDrako2012

5 ай бұрын

Also, you don't cast a guy who looks like a hack Vegas magician as a telepath everyone is supposed to take seriously.

@Sidharthavicious

5 ай бұрын

@@Lonovavir Good thing Byron wasn't fighting The Shadows. Just imagine the smug competition between him and Morden.

@ottersirotten4290

5 ай бұрын

I alsways hated him

You pretty much nailed it when you mentioned how Byron was an insufferable cult leader. I also did not like how they just abruptly decided we're going to go from fighting for a new world to killing ourselves. That whole episode seemed forced and illogical.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

The switch in Byron's goals upends the whole thing. There was probably a way to get their more naturally, but he literally changes overnight.

@Alknix

5 ай бұрын

@@Phintasmo To be fair, the treatment of telepaths in S5 was rather appaling. Lyta was completely right - after all she'd done for them and suffered through, they just abandon her when she falls on hard times! And it applies to Ts in general. I mean, we've dealt with the fascist regime that was in cahoots with cosmic horrors and nearly destroyed Earth, and we're now moving into the better, more enlightened era of freedom and cooperation. But the Psy Corps? Arguably the second most prominent symbol of that regime's evils (after the Night Watch)? Nah, we're keeping that; can't have those dangerous freaks running around snooping after our creepy fetishes and underhanded deals! Even though both Minbari and Centauri somehow manage without such a structure (I think), and maybe that's something we might culturally appropriate from them. Come to think of it, Bester shaped up to be the main villain of S5 (What? "Drakhs"? Yeah, right.) He terrorized Lyta, he did all that horrible shit to Garibaldi, pushing him to drink again, he gloated about murdering Talya, and he came down on the (initally) peaceful commune of telepaths. And he got away scot free (Yes, I know he got his in the books, doesn't count)! That is some major bullshit.

@dylanehooverlibrarian7026

5 ай бұрын

​@@PhintasmoSo much of the Telepath plot was wasted potential. When you have people who can read thoughts and alter perceptions and memories, you have a major story engine. Byron changing goals could easily be handled with a little jiggery pokery -he has his will subtly eroded by radicals, he was a psi corps plant, he became an mouthpiece of the colony as a Hivemind and his sanity was shredded with too many voices, etc. The rest of the plot for S5 was much better than I'd expected, but the telepath plot dragged it down. Guess it was the biggest casualty of the final season.

@SG-1-GRC

5 ай бұрын

The telepath plot was badly done. I kept expecting a reveal that psycorp had compromised Byron. As to psycorp not being dismantled and minbari etc dealing better with Ts I think a big reason for that was the fact human Ts did not occur naturally and gradually but due to the Vorlons interference. There was limited opportunity for gradual socialisation and integration and acceptance. It was kind of a moot point anyway as earlier episodes more than suggested that the genetically modified humans with such abilities would eventually be unable to sustain their numbers and would gradually lose the ability to produce descendants who shared those abilities. So a telepath colony would after a few generations just be a colony of mundanes.

@Alknix

5 ай бұрын

@@SG-1-GRC Weren't all telepaths the product of Vorlons' interference?

He's literally one of those charismatic cult leaders that are just assholes.

The Rogue Telepaths actually made Psycorps look like the good guys.

@coyotePAC3

5 ай бұрын

Exactly. This was a case where the characters - the rogue telepaths - were designated as good but did nothing to earn it.

@weareharbinger914

5 ай бұрын

It helps we had a long running Psycop character who we knew was a bastard, but never pretended otherwise.

The entire telepath arc always seemed off to me from the time Lyta got cut loose after the Shadow war. Up until then, Sheridan always backed his people & took care of them. Then Lyta basically wins the war for him and he....doesn't even pay her rent. Much less employ her as he well could have done as a very useful ally. That didn't fit the character he had been established as. Then yes, Byron was a cult leader and rather insufferable for it, while his telepaths were creepy cyphers we were supposed to care about, but they never got humanized/personalized enough to make the connection. It also never made sense to me that there wasn't even a single planet in the entire known universe that they could have been offered - if for no other reason that the offering government wanted them as extremely strong allies (especially useful ones in the newly mostly-commercial relations after the previous Shadow-inspired-warring the universe had been).

I’ve thought for nearly 30 years I was the only one that hated Byron. The whole first half of season 5 was so grating. It’s nice to know I’m not all alone in the night.

@richardthomas5362

5 ай бұрын

Exactly. When he went up in flames in his last episode I breathed a sigh of relief.

5 ай бұрын

@@richardthomas5362 I remember actually saying out loud "Oh thank the great maker he is dead" when it happened and before that I was internally thinking "just die already" I mean FFS they made him so obnoxious and annoying that I was rooting for Bester! A god damn telepath SS space nazi!

@jayblake682

5 ай бұрын

@@richardthomas5362 I only wish I had lit the flame.

@VerticalBlank

16 күн бұрын

Definitely not alone. I was active in forums such as USENET, CompuServe and CiX when B5 was first airing, and absolutely everybody HATED Byron without any exceptions.

You cannot help but feel sorry for Lochley because she correctly assesses the situations thrown at her and knows how she wants to run things but is overruled by her ex-husband and the old crew at almost every turn.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

I really empathized with Lochley's frustration with Sheridan and the whole situation. Strangely, she comes out the best from the whole saga. By the end we've been given a really good picture of her decision making process - also she shines in contrast to the incompetence of everyone else. I just checked out one of your podcasts (Day of the Dead) - its a great listen! You guys know this stuff inside out. And kudos for working your way through the ENTIRE series!

@yumyumpodcast

5 ай бұрын

@@Phintasmo The movies at least show how chill Lochley's command is! Thanks for checking out our stuff and we're keen to see what B5 videos you have coming up, perhaps one about Lochley being a better character than people give her credit for! Upon a re-watch it's pretty clear that she's just so god damn funny.

@MarijnvdSterre

5 ай бұрын

@@yumyumpodcast I think a problem is with her being all high and mighty that she stayed on the side of Clark. The scene with that little speech she gives Garibaldi just rubs the wrong way and makes little sense in context with what had happened. Despite that, the scene almost literally ends with the joke: "And then everybody clapped". I really think that without that scene, her overall perception would have been higher. There is probably more to it, but it has been too long since I watched the show. I really should fix that soon ^^

@yumyumpodcast

5 ай бұрын

@@MarijnvdSterre We talk about the problems of that scene often on the podcast! Honestly think her rationale works well as a justification people who were on the wrong side would use and it makes sense that Lochley believes it. The great thing about that speech is it gives us an insight into a mentality of this character and puts into motion an arc in which we we see over the course of the season her ideals get challenged in many ways and eventually she flips her stance on a personal level with her not being able to stay out of what is happening with Garibaldi and his relapse. All of this is majorly undercut by the fact the crowd claps and thus the show itself seemingly sides with her very clearly skewed point of view.

@MarijnvdSterre

5 ай бұрын

@@yumyumpodcast I agree completely. The problem isn't with her rational itself. It does make sense for her. And you make a good point about the show "feeling" like it wants us to side with her (at least partly). And since the viewers are not, it really gets the hackles up. That latches on Lochley and not the scene itself or the show. The scene might have worked perfectly fine if there had been no clapping, but some head shaking.

They were too Charlie Mansonesque to be likeable for me.

Season 5 was a bit of a letdown in some ways. The studio politics really messed with the story pacing through the whole series. But this was just a clumsy mess. I was rooting for PsiCorps almost from the time Byron walked on stage. We were lucky to get the quality of B5 we got.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

There's an apocryphal story about a really badly acted stage production of the Diary of Anne Frank - during the climax someone in the audience shouted 'She's in the attic!'

@EricDaMAJ

5 ай бұрын

@@Phintasmo Was Anne Frank portrayed like Lisa Simpson?

I think you hit it with the "Cult Leader" vibe, and noting he had to stretch the Byron plot with rewrites because Claudia was off the show. This telepath arc (JMS has written) was only supposed to be about three or four episodes. 1) Byron shows up. 2) Byron hangs out attracting Lyta/Ivanova 3) Byron gets laid and finds out about Vorlon manipulation. 4) Byron goes aggro and gets taken out by Psi Corp. Stretching that from about 4 episodes to half a season just hurt. Budget cuts, shooting schedule cuts and the contract snafu with Claudia running long into pre-production meat JMS was too overloaded to really refine the stretched out story.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

They could have also started earlier and had them help out against the Shadows.

@triem23

5 ай бұрын

@@Phintasmo Oh, HEY-ELL no! That would mean we've have had to put up with Byron for two seasons!

If Sheridan had said, "You got 6 months of asylum to get it together and get out."

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

That's one of the key problems isn't it - on what basis could Sheridan let them stay but not seem like a doofus stumbling into disaster. Maybe they could ratify G'Kar's declaration of principles - then the Telepaths show up and say "You've committed to protecting people who are oppressed by their governments - well we fit the bill!"

Byron's problem with Psi-Corps could've been more easily dealt with if he had non-human telepaths among his group. It would've elevated them to I.S.A. jurisdiction solely. That he didn't have alien telepaths among his group I think is telling. Just as is his past as a Psi-Cop. Whether Byron was intending to or not, I think with his high P-rating, he was subtly manipulating everyone in his group into conformity (given that he would only lose control when his people started showing strong emotions). The show mentions alien minds being very difficult on a human telepath but that should not have been an issue if Byron wasn't trying to use his abilities to control them. Thus, cult leader. His cause was admirable given that telepaths were indeed created for use as weapons and not the result of natural evolution. And while his reaction to finding this out seemed against his character, at the same I'm not exactly sure how I would act finding out my entire existence and everything I had been made to believe and believe in was a lie either. Basically his characterization and how he's talked about by others; that disconnect, is what I think we were supposed to have been paying attention to. Even if Byron's not trying to be, to modify an expression: you can take the Psi-Cop out of the Corps but you can't take the Corps out of the Psi-Cop. He was trained to believe himself superior to not only normals but superior to other telepaths as well. A wonderful recipe for political leadership...

@shiroamakusa8075

5 ай бұрын

Yeah, you can tell by all of his groupies dressing like him, having the same long hair and lacking any sort of independent personality. And remember how he first interacted with Lyta? By trying to guilt-trip her with that entire "sit down" farce. He was a friggin cult leader, that's how they gain control of their victims.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

The 'sit down' bit was classic negging! He was such a jerk. As for non-human telepaths, I'm glad they kept that separate. We never know a great deal about how the other species govern their teeps and drawing attention to it muddles and confuses the story they are trying to tell with the Psicorp. One of the few times it comes up is in that season 1 episode where the latent telepath girl ends up going off to live with the Minbari. The audience really has to ignore that this happened, because it raises the question of why all the human rogue telepaths don't do this, or why Earth isn't taking issue with Alien governments harboring fugitives.

@bobbyshaddoe3004

5 ай бұрын

​@@Phintasmothe reason non human telepathy weren't part of the group is because other cultures have no problem accepting non human telepaths into their society, with humans, its either PsiCorps or nothing. Byron knows better than most how indoctrination and controlling the PsyCorps can be. What he was trying to do was bring structure and organization to the rogue telepaths so they could achieve their aims of striking out on their own and build a future for themselves and provide a stable and sustainable alternative to the PsyCorps. In addition, he was fed up with how so called normal people always seem to.beg and plead for telepaths to help solve their problems, fight their wars, but the very minute telepaths ask for help from normal people, suddenly 'there's nothing we can do'. Byron tried appealing to their good nature, tried making a compassionate plea to try to get their help from their good will, and when they kept saying 'there's nothing we can do', that's when they had to resort to forcing the issue. And they weren't asking for much, just an uninhabited world for rogue telepaths to settle on, a safe haven, and Sheridan acts like they're asking for the first born child of every council member.

@gups4963

2 ай бұрын

@@Phintasmo Because it is the Minbari, I don't think earth would be starting anything with them again lol. But you point overall is right

@Wolf-ln1ml

Күн бұрын

None of the other races treated their telepaths anywhere near as badly as Psi Corps, so there was no (strong enough) desire for any of them to go into voluntary exile... As for the "created as a weapon" thing, I'm pretty sure it's just as Star Trek TNG's "The Hunted" simply an analogy to how the USA treated their Vietnam war veterans. In both cases, it's blatant, no subtlety whatsoever, which is supposed to give the "created as weapons, then neglected and discarded" party some big bonus points, which were in this case immediately squandered with Byron's "insufferable cult leader" character... (it's one of the few cases where I significantly prefer Star Trek's take on a subject, even though they didn't do it anywhere near as well as one could have done, either)

The whole telepath colony made no sense. Imagine Little House on the Prairie but everybody is a telepath. "I sense a million minds that want to suck our blood." Yeah...they're called mosquitoes.

I have always said season six should have been the telepath war, with a final season 7 being the Drakh war that then lead into Crusade on a high. I think part of why Crusade failed - studio interference aside - was because of the damage done by Byron's arc. B5 had just spent 5 years building up to the climatic confrontation with the Shadows, culminating in a war in heaven between the Shadows and the Vorlons, if it was to continue past that point it needed to start building up to towards the next big confrontation and the Telepath and Drakh wars are two major events in the lore.

@sdfried4877

5 ай бұрын

JMS was holding the Telepath War in reserve for a motion picture with a modest budget of $30 to $35 million. This is why that event is carved out of the timeline with Crusade picking up after it is over. He thought it would be a great send off for B5 and would allow the cast to get a proper paycheck. Of course, it never happened and we are all left with holes in our minds. Byron's death was the catalyst propelling Lyta toward this conflict and the cause of her eventual death. A Call to Arms starts on the five-year anniversary of the Interstellar Alliance and notes the deaths on both sides in the recent telepath conflict, especially.... The Drakh "war" was seen in a Call to Arms, although Drakh incursion or siege is a more proper description. After that brazen assault, they went back to their usual routine of hiding in the shadows and continued to be a problem until 2278, when the Drakh Leader was hilariously killed by Michael Garibaldi after the rescue of David Sheridan.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

Season 5 could be an example of the extended arc being too rigid. Without the Earth civil war to anchor the first half they needed something new and impactful to take its place (Telepath War would have done it - or move up the Drakh stuff earlier and provide more resolution later.) Instead it feels like they beefed up something that was intended to be a side story. Its a shame Crusade didnt last as we would almost certainly have got all the things you mentioned in some form or another.

@saladinbob

5 ай бұрын

That's the problem, the Drakh war wasn't seen in _Call to Arms,_ they had already lost the war by this point, because remember it's a five year time jump. All it showed was a spiteful attack on Earth to set up Crusade. We needed to see a war that was a very real threat to the nascent Alliance on screen, not hear references to it in a TV movie pilot for a new show.

@sdfried4877

5 ай бұрын

@@saladinbob The spiteful attack out of left field was the only direct conflict with the Drakh. There was no actual war, just the single assault. They had been hiding on Centauri Prime with their very patient and very silly plan to get back at Sheridan in 17 years and then they suddenly decided instead to destroy Earth on the fifth anniversary of the IA. After the ass kicking they seemed to go back back into hiding except for a few random encounters. There was no prolonged conflict during the intervening 5 years. The Drakh had managed to get the Shadow Cloud up and running and tested it in secret in preparation for a surprise attack. Earth would have had no idea they were coming had Galen not tipped off Sheridan and sent him on a quest in A Call to Arms. Once the cloud and much of the Drakh fleet were destroyed, they were no longer a match for the IA forces and the withdrew to Centauri Prime.

@sdfried4877

5 ай бұрын

@@Phintasmo Crusade was getting ready to go down some rabbit holes. The unfilmed scripts were really good. The telepath war, part 2 would have started gearing up.

How can you not love Alfred Bester 🤔?

@mikepatton8691

5 ай бұрын

How can you not love to hate Alfred Bester, is more accurate lol. You can tell Chekov really loved playing a smarmy evil character like him.

@Sidharthavicious

5 ай бұрын

He's the reason I tend to do an invisible hat tip rather than wave to people.

5 ай бұрын

@@mikepatton8691 Agreed, he is evil, but an smarmy, charming and oddly polite evil

I think a lot of people missed the point about the “rogue telepaths”, and Byron in particular. They were, in so many ways, a reflection of the cultural trauma resulting from the Branch Davidians in Waco, TX. Byron in particular is an excellent - if annoying - representation of how cult leaders so often go awry - high on a combination of power and drunk on the adulation of their followers. I never thought of him as a character to like.

@MeanOldLady

Ай бұрын

True but it's so damned overdone. And Pedowood today doesn't have a single, original idea to explore anymore. Most of it is just atheist "shariah" in the form of nihilistic demoralization. It's not about subtle propaganda hiding in entertainment, but full on propaganda with only a dash of entertainment.

Even as a teenager Byron annoyed the hell out of me. I couldn't have articulated what exactly it was at the time, but looking back with this in mind I think you nailed it.

A friend of mine used to call Byron's bunch the "telegoths". Says it all, really.

@Wolf-ln1ml

Күн бұрын

I always called them (part of) the Kelly Family...

Solid analysis. Byron, for all his fault, mainly being annoying, still had a charisma to him. He kind of steals all the scenes he is involved in, even though one might want him not to. The telepath colony arc has a good climax to it as well, and even though S5 isn't as strong as the rest of B5, I don't hate this arc taking the spotlight for the first half.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

The actor is good and he does steal every scene he is in. It's a shame that he mainly interacts with Lyta and has no strong connection to any of the other main characters. (Too bad Ivanova wasn't around anymore.) Most people tuned in for the continuing adventures of the established cast but it feels like it becomes the Byron show at times.

Totally agree, I absolutely hated the Byron character, it was totally different and out of place with the rest of the B5 universe, a case of PC / Preaching that went BADLY wrong.

The problem for me was that the final ep. of season 4 already gave away that the colony was a failure. That ruined any tension.

I didn't mind the TELEPATH idea - but it was horribly layed out...

The weird "I was in an 80's Christian Rock Band you've never heard of" look didn't help.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

Ha! Thats exactly the look!

@Wolf-ln1ml

Күн бұрын

Kelly Family...

I could not ever hate my favourite medic.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

He’s in soo many video games! B5 fans are among the only people who strongly link him to a live action role.

@planescaped

5 ай бұрын

@@Phintasmo Like David Herman and OG MadTV fans. But Robert Atkin Downes(Byron) has voiced everything from the nemesis orcs in Shadow of Mordor/War, to Brynjolf the Theives Guild douche in Skyrim... I just realized Claudia Christensen was also in Skyrim, lol.

@Krisztus1Haver

5 ай бұрын

@@Phintasmo thanks for the essay by the way. I was way to young to appreciate b5 when it was running. Its time to bench it again. As for Robert Atkin Dowes he is a giga chad when it comes to his roles expecially his voices, Tf2 has an exelent cast and trough that i became aware of his work.

And then George Lucas saw Byron and thought to himself -- that, THAT is what Vader looked and sounded like before the suit . 😂😅😢

Ugh, season 5 was universal trash. They ruined Lennier.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

Ooh, I liked the Lennier stuff in Season 5. His moment of weakness is positively Shakespearean! Shame we never got to see his redemption play out.

The biggest problem was the underground railroad story arc essentially went away in season four along with telepaths being created by the Vorlons as a counter to the Shadows.. In season 4 we had bit of Lyta. But that mostly revolved around the command staff cutting her loose at the end of the Shadow war. Then we got telepath virus arc, that while reinforcing Psi-Corp bad, did not really show us any corresponding telepaths good (outside Lyta). That meant Byron and the colony showed up without much of the usual setup that B5 did so well during the first four seasons. I remain convinced that had JMS gone into season 4 knowing season 5 was coming he would have done much more setup. Possibly focused on one more telepaths who aided against the Shadows (Early into to Byron). At the end of season 3 Ivanova got contacts for the underground railroad from Dr Franklin so we might have got a mini arc about using the railroad to recruit telepaths. Some of those telepaths might have popped up again throughout the season. Do more setting up of Sheridan’s blind spot towards telepaths, expanding on not just Lyta being blown off but a lot of telepaths being left out in the cold after the Shadow war. That could have done a much better job leading into season 5’s colony arc and making the stakes more personnel. But alas we will never know. JMS has conferred that the Shadow arc would have lasted 3-4 more episodes if he’d had the time but he’s never really said how he would have fleshed out those episodes. I think more emphasis on telepaths would have been a key subplot.

I could have done without Byron and wish they gave his story to Lyta which also would have fleshed out Zack.

@bobbyshaddoe3004

5 ай бұрын

That would've been awesome

first the main problem was that the show runners weren't expecting to get renewed for the last season and it why they rushed to get all the mains arc over with, this caused the problem of only having the b-plots to focus on, if Telepath Colony had been woven in with the normal arcs it would have come off much better, the interstellar Alliance would have needed the Telepaths for the war, and could have come built up the relationships slowly and more in depth, so the inevitable confrontation when the war ended would have been more impactful, secondly the way byron was portrayed made him a very bad leader, he left the Psi core, but the Psi core never left him, he antagonized everyone who would be his ally, called normal people mundanes and acted like they were superior, which drove a wedge between then telepaths and normals, there very future depended on cooperation with the interstellar alliance and instead they blackmailed and alliterated everyone who would be willing to help and so on, byron came of as unsympathetic to the audience, more of as a antagonist we rooted to see fall, another problem was we never really addressed how poorly the main cast treated leela and drove her into the Telepath camp

5 ай бұрын

true when you make Bester of all people look like the good guy, you know you stuffed up making a character the audience is meant to agree with on the ideals.

I hated Byron and his band because they were a bunch of selfish cowards who (after hiding under their beds during the shadow war) came out and Demanded everyone kiss their butts and give them what they perceived was owed to them from people who had no part in hurting them. Lyta and the telepaths who fought and died, just like 'mundanes' knew what Byron and his worms could never figure out. As the rangers say "We live for the one, we die for the one" Even when B5 was attacked all they did was protect themselves and to hell with everyone else, If these gutless bullies want reparations, go find the Vorlons

While it wasn't one of B5's best story lines it was at least tolerable except for that damn annoying song the Teeps were always singing.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

🎶🎵“We will all come together in a better place…” 🎶🎵

I was so ready to see the telepath war in S5. Thank you for sharing!

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

You are very welcome! I still remember how it slowly dawned on me as season 5 progressed that they probably werent going to deliver the Telepath War. Biggest missing chapter in the whole lore!

@sdfried4877

5 ай бұрын

@@PhintasmoNope. Just a slow build up. The telepath war is actually composed of two parts: Lyta’s War (the destruction of the Psy Corps) Bester’s Return (an armed insurrection against Earthgov by rogue factions of the former Psy Corps). By the time of Crusade, the first part had concluded and the unfilmed script Value Judgments (late Season 1) would have set the second into motion. Neither went well for Bester as he found himself wanted as a war criminal after both of these events. He remained at large until finally captured by Michael Garibaldi in 2271. Bester spent ten years in a Maximum Security prison until his death in 2281. Garibaldi visited his grave and planted something in the Earth above his resting place - a wooden stake.

One of the many, many reasons I hate Byron is that he’s completely superfluous. I mean, we’ve known Lyta for four years at this point. Do we need some newb showing up and teaching her how to be a rebel leader? And she just follows him around like a puppy dog? No! Lyta doesn’t need anyone to *teach* her how to lead, she’s already learned it through her years of experience on the show. She spent years running from the Psicorps. She made use of the Underground Railroad, and (probably) ran part of it at some point. So the season takes this character that we know really well and like, and make her an understudy for some pretentious goofus, as though she’s got anything to learn. Now, if Byron was her lieutenant, I doubt anyone would have a problem with it. She says “Jump” and he doesn’t have to ask how high because he already knows ‘cuz he’s a telepath. I mean, think about how cool that could have been: Lyta with her little clan of rogue teeps, all of them just instantly following her whims, intimidating security, stuff like that.

@jonathancurran5366

5 ай бұрын

I wonder if Ivanova was supposed to be Byron's GF initially with her on the rebound from Marcus and her history with the corps.

@rukbat3

5 ай бұрын

@@jonathancurran5366She was, and it’s the only reason I’m happy about the contract mixups that caused her not to be in Season 5.

@MFenix206

5 ай бұрын

@@rukbat3 indeed Ivanova would have been waaaay out of his league. hell LytaxByron felt forced as hell to me.

This hit the nail on the head. I loved the show up until that point, and thought it had so many elements that other sci-fi shows lacked. Then Season 5 came along and Jumped the Shark, and I thought it was not even the same show anymore.

I think they needed to be more animated, more practical. More human. They just.. stood there being creepy all the time. Also, if you're looking for a place to stay, it seems likely that you'd want everyone else there to think you're good people. Helping them out occasionally even. They should have found a place outside of Earth jurisdiction immediately instead of staying right there, taunting the Psi-core to come and arrest them.

@TheCatherineCC

5 ай бұрын

They would have been hunted down no matter where they went (even outside earth jurisdiction). As rogue minorities, their continued existence was unacceptable. A state offering sanctuary would have been the only thing that could have saved them, but none did.

@MFenix206

5 ай бұрын

I have no idea why they didn't seek sanctuary with Minbar like that 10 year old from season 1.

I'm at a loss for words...mostly because I had COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN this. Ugh. The most punchable face in SF goes up against the most loathesome semi-regular in the show and...suddenly Bester is the reincarnation of Randolph Scott.* Who WASN'T rooting for Bester at the end of this? *Scott: see "Blazing Saddles". I shall now cry in my coffee. THANKS. (OK, I guess I'll subscribe now. What IS this place. Ta.)

I love B5 but the telepath ark seemed lazy and lyta deserved more.

He was supposed to be a sympathetic character who wasn't sympathetic - he was arrogant, pretentious, narcissistic.

@jamesrhoden4969

2 ай бұрын

Well, he was Bester's protege...

I watched this show on dvd with my dad in about 2016 for the first time, it is arguably my all time favorite science fiction series ever made

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

So great that you and your dad were able to bond over it! Glad you feel it still holds up!

Thank you for confirming everything I thought about Byron...

Season 5 seems to be a result of JMS having to use too many of his "outs" because of actors leaving or having already left. Seems like the story just didn't turn out to be what it was intended to be. It's a show-runner's nightmare that causes you to have to make changes on the fly that you were not originally wanting, and having to alter the story to fit the real-life circumstances. It was very disappointing that Claudia Christian left after S4, and I'm sure--like other's have already mentioned--with the Ivanova character still in the show, the season plot arc could have been very different. After all, as Claudia Christian has said, Ivanova was everyone's favorite Telepathic, Russian, Lesbian, Jew.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

The double-wammy of losing a key cast member AND compensating for all the stuff moved to season 4.

@Revkor

5 ай бұрын

well they thought season for was it butthen they got a season 5

I think it would have been interesting to see how this story would have gone if they hadn't "killed off" Talia. Every time I rewatch the show I find it a little jarring how just when she starts getting interesting, she's gone. I think if we continued on with her until season 5 instead of Lyta, let her and Ivonova become lovers, And of course still had Claudia Christian in season 5, I feel like this arc would have played out in a very different way. Talia and Ivanova could have been made to be at odds in the colony situation, putting pressure on their relationship and testing their commitments. The telepaths could have potentially been leaderless, a spot that Talia could have filled. This way even if the arc followed its same general path, It would have been more impactful since it was a character we've known for five seasons, especially if she dies like Byron. Yah know, instead of THAT guy. It'll be curious to see where JMS goes with this new reboot!

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

That would have been fantastic! Talia Winters was great and its a shame actress left. Still, its amazing JMS was able to keep things going for five seasons despite all the departures.

@sdfried4877

5 ай бұрын

That was never the plan but the original intent, before the "Claudia Situation" was that Susan would assume command of B5 and still be in mourning for Marcus and John Sheridan would temporarily conduct the business of the IA from there as well. When Byron and his band of kooks arrive, Susan would immediately sympathize with them based on her long-standing hatred of the Psy Corps. Sheridan, trying to abide by the rules and play it safe in the fledgling Alliance, would refuse their request for sanctuary and Susan would override him, as was her right. This would create a conflict since we've never seen Susan disobey Sheridan before. Their relationship has almost been like sister and brother over the years with John standing in for the big brother she lost in the war. Her going against him and endangering the Alliance could be seen as an act of betrayal by his closest and most loyal officer. They flipped the dynamic in Season 5 and it never made much sense the way it played out in the show. Sheridan tells Lochley that station ops are her decision and immediately overrides that decision in the same episode. Now, on to Byron. Susan immediately becomes enamored of this man with long hair and a British accent possibly out of guilt for spurning our favorite virginal Ranger and gets romantically involved with Discount Marcus. This, of course, turns out to be just another bad relationship choice for the long-suffering Ivanova who ultimately ends up as a middle-aged lonely General who never found true love. Lyta would still be there but only as a super-powered acolyte of Byron. After his death, she would go off in search of revenge pretty much the way she does in Season 5. Dramatically speaking, all these points make perfect sense and would have fueled much better drama but remove one block and the whole structure crumbles. I still don't know if the telepath arc would have been good overall with these changes, but it certainly would have been better.

@quantumsledgehammer1629

5 ай бұрын

@@sdfried4877 "Discount Marcus"...hilarious, but true description.

@sdfried4877

5 ай бұрын

@@quantumsledgehammer1629 It’s true though. Ivanova would be drawn to him primarily because of his similarities to a certain flamboyant Ranger. Once she listened to him talk for a few hours, the relationship would be over.

@quantumsledgehammer1629

5 ай бұрын

@@sdfried4877 Agreed. Ivanova was not a character known for tolerating pretentiousness.

Sheridan is like a great sports star, who goes in to management and finds out it does not play the same way. The Peter principle comes to mind.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

Maybe so. Probably for the best that Captain Kirk never became Federation President.

The rogue telepath plotline felt bolted on when they got a green light for season 5 having already filmed the story's final episode.

Yeah, the arc for Byron and his merry band of rogue telepaths certainly wasn’t the finest writing that we had come to expect. But, season 5 did have some occasional gems pop up, like View from the Gallery, which tells a story about the day in the life of a pair of station maintenance workers.

John Sheridan: "Honey? Can the human telepaths live on some weird outpost in Minbar space somewhere? Delen: "Hmmm.. I don't know. It does make sense with the whole human/minbari souls thing, but I'd have to pull a lot of strings." JS: "It would really piss off Bester." D: "You always did know how to sweet talk me, John."

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

Roll credits!

Byron is basically Marcus Cole if you ordered him on Wish 😛

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

lol! I’ve heard that was intentional - since they were originally setting him up for Ivanova.

the thing about telepaths in the B5 universe is they were only a stepping stone in evolution, in s4 final it's implied that humanity evolves into a race much like the Vorlons were , if anything Psi corps held the evolution back with there inhouse breeding program. for example when Lyta went all control mode at the end of s5 it was Sheridan a mere mundane shut her down simply because he had also walked with the Vorlons.

I always fast forward every scene with Byron when I do a series rewatch

The weird part was that all the other telepaths were living statues, they do absolutely nothing except sit around, sing, and be introverts. It's just bizarre, and doesn't communicate sympathy for them.

This is a very interesting hypothetical look at what could have gone wrong w/ a fifth season of B5. Luckily that never happened.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

Lol!

Nowadays, i just imagine that Byron has just finished smoking weed everytime i see him on screen 😂 His dialogue at times was like a space hippie 😂 Fortunately, season five picks up (big time) in the second half and ended the show on a high.

Well, as every B5 fan knows (including the makers of this video), Joe S. was forced to accelerate the story telling in Season 4 because there was very little chance of a season 5. When miraculously, at the last minute, the show was granted a 5th season, most of the 5th season story arc had already been told. So, Joe had to scramble to come up with enough story material to fill season 5, and it suffered accordingly.

Perhaps the reason people on the show acted like he was so great and pure despite being an abrasive jerk was him using his powers to subtly manipulate the emotions of those he interacted with.

Your analysis is good but seems to overlook the heavy handed way the renegade telepaths were presented as just the smartest, nicest, most civilized victims ever. It was too incredible to be anything but annoying.

There's this nice moment with subtitles, when Lita says: "there's going to be war between telepaths and monday"...

Obnoxious...and his teeps were creepy... weird... ugh! I think your video nailed it. Excellent 👍

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

Thanks! Yeah, they got the tone of the whole thing so wrong. Big disconnect between what they were going for and what ended up on screen.

Perhaps the problem with the Telepath arc on B5 was not so much how the characters of Byron and Sheridan were written, but simply that there was no good solution to it. And no Kirkian solution to this Kobayashi Maru type situation, either. In that case there is no "Sheridan sitting on his ass", but simply him trying and failing to solve an unsolvable problem. Equally, Byron and his telepaths becoming more radical would simply be par for the course: a natural reaction to being confronted with an unsolvable conundrum that you *have* to solve in order to surivive. Fight in stead of flight, with some desperate moves like the blackmail for their own planet being perhaps a bold final move born of sheer exasperation. Perhaps more painful than how Babylon 5 handled this plotline, is how easily Crusade solved it: by simply adding a fourth option to the grim list of prison, Psi Corps or debilitating drugs. And that was allowing telepaths to roam free in society, as long as they did not abuse their powers, with the Psi Corps standing watch to apprehend any offenders, just like the regular police enforce regular laws. Clean and simple, putting the whole telepath crisis during Babylon 5's final season in a somewhat cringy perspective: if only they had thought of this solution sooner...

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

The psicorp was an imperfect solution that got entrenched and went rotten over the course of a couple of hundred years. I can believe it had reached a point where a major reckoning was needed to bring about a new status quo. I agree that there was this inevitable sense it was going to end badly and there wasn’t a good solution. It was the execution that failed more than the premise.

I agree wholeheartedly. The 5th season was insufferable especially when these telepaths are involved. The ISA plotlines are mostly ok but Byron always rubbed me the wrong way.

This is a good channel. Seems under-appreciated.

My biggest problem with the telepath subplot was that we already knew from previous seasons, that the Minbari care for their telepaths, and treat them with great respect, and lay no obligations on them. In return, they might perform certain services for the people.. So, WHY DIDN'T the telepaths EMIGRATE TO MINBAR? They could have led free lives, away from Earth's laws-- just as they wanted!

@bloodysimile4893

5 ай бұрын

Minbari are deeply religious to control their behavior, much like valcan from star trek. Whie warrior caste is overbearing, all them keep their matters with a share belief. Incorporating humans to the ranger was heated debate among them, likly only accepted due to coming shadow war. Human telepaths would have been much more difficult matter. With worker caste hold major of power in grey council, why built homes for those who wouldn't be part of Minbar? Centuri seem to have some measures to use telepathy their stances and positions of power, like the emperors "herm" (there a more appropriate term, but they are telepathy for emperor to keep in touch of homeworld while away,) Of course, the who galaxy is just recovering from shadow war, with many worlds destroyed. Even minbar just when through a civil war. So the last thing any world want is more refugees who can read minds, not without security measures in place when human telepathy wouldn't been accepting.

I think we were supposed to hate Byron, yet have sympathy for what he stood for. It is the real-world problem of people who might have a valid reason for being upset going too far and not seeing their own flaws. It was a very human segment. As far as Sheridan, it was a no-win situation and often we all put off dealing with issues like that until it's too late. I could relate.

I have found the telepath colony all the space and distance they'll ever need, it's right through airlock 12.

@TheCatherineCC

5 ай бұрын

The right wing solution to deal with all minorities

"Flaming Telepaths" - bLUe oYsTeR cULt 🎸

@nolimit7959

5 ай бұрын

Don’t Fear The Teepers! 😏

I always felt like the narrative vibe of them being "good guys" while still giving off a strong "cult leader" feeling was entirely on purpose, and I enjoyed that juxtaposition. The fact that this fell apart later was in my opinion a bad decision.

Also, the whole Byron storyline should have been a one or two episode thing, not half a season.

I really liked Lyta Alexander. Watching her with Byron was like watching your daughter pick the wrong guy and bringing him home for dinner.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

Perfect comparison! You are tolerating him for her sake but are hoping she'll see sense and kick him to the curb.

@seanharrigan6365

5 ай бұрын

That almost ruined the 5th season for me.

I don't remember most of season 5, since it was so boring I bailed on it fairly quickly. So I barely recall anything about the telepath colony. And now I have to wonder why the telepaths didn't set up a secret colony on Epsilon 3. It was a whole planet mostly empty with massive amounts of underground spaces that could be used to house a few dozen people. The Great Machine would have been able to protect them from the Psi-Corps.

I think this hits the nail right on the head as to why this plotline just didn't work. Overall season 5 feels like a ridiculous overlong epilogue to the most important storylines. It can't help but be a big letdown after the Shadow war and Human civil war.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

It seems especially slow after the breakneck speed of events in season 4. If they’d kept up the pace a bit I think it would have helped contrast with the final few episodes when we say farewell to all the characters.

The reason it didn’t work was cleaners at JMS’ hotel destroyed his notes and JMS had to stretch the only story he could remember for roughly twice as long as it should have done

Pretty spot on here. When I do rewatches I just don't bother with season 5

@ZlothZloth

5 ай бұрын

The Day of the Dead story was great!

I read the Psi Corps series, and it was good, and laid out some intriguing aspects of humam psycics, but I kept wondering why human psycics seemed to be more trouble than Centari, Minbari, or the psycics of other races. It seemed like psycic ability had much more potential than what was shown in B5.

@timmiller1954

5 ай бұрын

psychic

Claudia Christian said in an interview that she just wasn't contacted for appearing in season 5. She didn't abruptly leave after season 4. Sadly season 5 was a dogshit sandwich, and was on par with the B5 movies in quality.

@mvprime8

5 ай бұрын

Well that's just complete nonsense. They were negotiating with her for S5, just like all the other actors, and she didn't sign on.

@Wolf-ln1ml

Күн бұрын

From what I can put together, there was some kind of deadline that was fixed (due to producers of the actor's guild or whatever), and she didn't show up or hand in the signed papers in time for that deadline. Why she didn't, what led up to that, what happened afterwards, depends on who you ask (JMS, Christian, Boxleitner all have somewhat different views)

Sheridans response to Byron should have been UP YOURS just like his response to Kosh

*"THERRRRE IS NOOOO SAAAAANCTUUUUUUARY ALLLL FROOOOZEN" - Surrogate 2of Logan5.*

I think bringing Byrons telepaths in during the shadow war and having them on the ships in the battle would have made them relevant

"Most hated?" Nah. That would be Mr. Morden for most of the audience. If you meant "hated character that was supposed to be liked," then it might be accurate.

@bloodysimile4893

5 ай бұрын

Disagree. You can have the most vile villain still be like by the audience because they are so vile, like Mr. Morden. Every sence you look forward to with behind the shadow plotting and mystery. Or mr. Bester on how he get underneath everyone skin without his telepathy. Bryan, every scene with him, you know is going to be a drag. I'm not ashamed that when I rewatch the show, I never skip Mr. Morden and Bester but I can skip the telepathy arc with Bryan

The very first time I saw the first episode with the telepaths talking about a telepath homeworld, I wondered why they didn't just ask for one of the smaller Markab colony worlds. The Markab weren't around anymore, and nobody ever mentioned any of the other races taking them over.

5 ай бұрын

Yeah the only mention of them was that the other races looted the Markab worlds

I blame the fact that the original plans for season 5 got stolen by a fan and JMS having to re-write the entire arc from scratch. :(

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

The version I heard was that the hotel cleaning lady threw out his notes. Whatever the case, I think JMS was already getting burned out from the work load - starting over must have been a nightmare!

Given real-life events earlier that decade and how the storyline ended, Byron always gave me some very heavy David Koresh vibes.

The actress, Claudia Christian, who played Susan Ivanova was fired, abruptly, over the phone while at a convention in Toronto. Aside from mentioning that she’d just learned she wouldn’t be back the following season, she carried on enchanting the fans.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

Sounds like a great con experience! Did she talk about it while she was there?

@canuck3169

5 ай бұрын

@@Phintasmo Just to say that she wouldn’t be returning next season. Then she continued talking about the show, how good her (former) cast mates were to work with, funny stories about what happened on set. Toronto Trek was an awesome well organized fan run non-profit convention. Any monies raised over operating costs were donated to Ronald MacDonald House. They had top tier guest-until the for profit convention started offering more money to the actors to come to their con.

You actually surprised me when you said the show was intended as a 5-season arc. I've always thought that season 5 was just tacked on and unnecessary. It's easy to ignore.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

Yeah, the Earth civil war stuff was meant to stretch into the first chunk of season 5. If this telepath story had run parallel to it as a side story I think it would have worked way better.

The insufferable telepaths were the reason I bailed on B5 partway into the fifth season. Besides, they had wrapped up all the real plotlines in season four anyway.

The easiest solution for the rogue telepath issue was to just form a colony in the Markab home-world. Theres no jump gate so it’s less likely for the planet to be visited. They could just move there, build a world. The infrastructure was there and the deal would be for them to help with the cleanup of all the dead and prevent grave robbing by protecting the markab legacy and history.

I like your take but I think if you are paying attention then we quickly had issues . 1) Humans are not the only telepaths. While they did have issues going on the Mimbari could have sent a couple of groups to help. The Centari don’t group all the telepaths in one group but spread them out and so finding some to help should have been on the table. And the Centari telepaths are good with reading possible future so yeah why were they not trying to do this (and I mean EVERYONE should have tried). Also, they all knew telepaths exist so how much info was he going to get before codes change security locked down and fleets start moving to remove the threat. This is what we expect not just upset diplomats- a full blown military response! 2) G’kar. As the last member of the original ruling council he was at the beginning trying to find telepaths. Even if the Narn had none he literally knew why they had none and how it hurt his people. Info that the telepaths should have notes and made plans or set expectations with that as part of them. At the least, G’kar himself should have tried to warn them where this was leading. Even if just to be moral about it. 3) Ironheart. He is a literal telepathic GAWD and while he may not have cared about much of the first one issues, the PsiCorp vs the rebels he would have cared about. At the lest again if the telepaths were trying to get him to talk to them or come back that would have been a good call. At the least, the viewer could have expected his return (what with them brining his name up multiple times in the first two seasons - yeah) I. This one place he cares about. His being missing feels like a lost opportunity. (He does not have to show up but he is the Holy Spirit to Bryan’s Paul the apostle) . Losing everything even the gift of telekinesis from that episode hurt. 4) Human female telepath in the Minbari . We literally saw her and there was no reason she does not come back with what she knows. She may not be as stable as others but she knows how a gestalt telepathy group works because that was supposedly how the Minbari did it. Brining her back would have given that outside perspective and made up to some extent for the loosing other elements of the arc. She would be someone that already can sniff out what bad things people want and being a counter to Bryon makes a more interesting narrative. But the worst thing was: 5) The telepaths were evil and stupid. Where there was a bit of moral issues before when they go into backstabbing mode there was only one way it was going to end - in Blood. The Galaxy kicked out the Volons a more powerful telepathic biotechnology species so they really expected this to play out with them getting a planet ? The species had not asked for this but they attacked those that did nothing removing all care for them in a strike. Heck I was shocked that they got off the station alive because they should’ve made it off except for Lydia. There would have been nothing but help for Psi Corp in the war. And this was basically logical in result. Unlike most of the series it felt tacked on and half thought out and a poor end for the series.

Man, it's been so long since I binge watched B5 that I had kind of pushed this episode out of my memory. I had forgotten how weird this episode felt when the show was mostly so well written and how much I disliked it. Very interesting to have 'what could have been' be more fleshed out.

I hated Byron and wished he got called out on his bs. That he was acting as a cult leader and basically recreated a more idyllic version of the Psi-corp with himself as the glorious leader. In the end he lead his people to the flame. What a ****

So, one thing should be taken into context, especially now we can easily discover this information from various interviews. JMS intended for ALL the major plots to end in Season 5. Everything: Babylon 5s attack on the Sol System to free Earth from President Clark’s tyranny, the Shadow War, the Telepath Colony, the Minibari Civil War, the introduction of the Drahk, and more. However, he was told that the show would end in Season 4 abruptly at the beginning of the Season’s production, and by the time the decision was reversed, it was too late, the Shadow War and ending of President Clark and the establishment of The Alliance had to go according to the with the planning of the series ending with Season 4. This is why Season 4s last episode includes showing us the future and hinting at the Telepath conflict, JMS was fishing for another Season. In the original 5 Season plan, Byron and the Telepath Colony would have probably been introduced during mid-late Season 4 and would have been used by Babylon 5 and allies in the Shadow War. This likely would have leant far more creditability to the whole “we were weapons, give us a planet NOW” argument, but I do agree they should have asked before spying. Basically, JMS wanted to resolve all the things he had been hinting at since Season 1, resolved in Season 4 what he could when told it was all he was getting very suddenly, and when he tried to resolve everything else in the Season 5 he was finally granted…it kinda didn’t work because the sequence of intended events wasn’t there to support it. Sadly.

@looneyburgmusic

5 ай бұрын

Even still, JMS could have solved that entire issue by making all of Season 5 have "The Telepath War" as the major plotline, over the space of maybe 15-20 episodes, before finally wrapping everything up in the last couple of shows. But instead, he tried to rush/force the storyline, which has never worked, (especially in Sci-Fi, see: BSG Season 4), and never will.

As you mentioned the main problem was the show almost being cancelled, it messed up the last two sessions. A lot was rushed or cut short in S4 & S5, the flow of the show was hit hard. They where trying to do a more hard SIFI take on telepathy, in books it's easier than film to show groups of people who dont need to talk. Kind of hit me that Walter Koenig set a high bar, like Nimoy in Trek. I compare all new Vulcans in Trek to Spock & all new telepath's in B5 to Koenig.

I would agree with you- if it wasn't for Byron's relationship with Bester.

I hated the whole telepath plot. At least in the end it turned Lyta full against Psy-Corps. I was happy they died.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

I like how the Lyta character came out the other end of it. It’s a shame we never got the full pay-off to that story.

I hated Byron the moment I saw him, he looked and acted like a cult leader. There were so many ways they could have solved this issue. I have read so many B5 fanfics that lays out solutions to this issue. As for season 5, there are some excellent episodes, but also some bad ones.

I’ve never really bought the idea that all of season 5’s woes were because of the accelerated pace. JMS has said that had things gone according to plan, season 4 would have ended with Intersections in Real Time. So, realistically, we only lost four or five episodes, at least a couple of which would have been Clarke’s ongoing efforts to destabilize B5 through indirect means (Which were tedious) and maybe one standalone episode. I think a *lot* of the problem was that JMS was dealing with the switch to a new network and a shorter production schedule (1 day less per episode), gearing up to start a new show, making three TV movies, and so forth. I feel like a lot of the problem comes from him being overextended. And I also feel like, as you said, getting Crusade made him decide to just push all that stuff out into the next series. So what I think the problem *really* is (I mean on top of the hyperextended JMS stuff) is that we got all the Byron crap *instead of* the Telepath War. Because he no longer needed to wrap it up in B5, *and* had to find something to fill up all that space. So it went from being the resolution of a long and interesting plot thread to a seven-episode “Coming attractions.” That’s my hunch anyway

@Daimo83

5 ай бұрын

makes sense

@BattlestarZenobia

5 ай бұрын

I’d add that all his notes for season 5 were destroyed when his hotel room was cleaned out shortly before they started filming and had to start writing again from scratch and the only plot he could clearly remember and thus he spent way too much time on the story

It flopped because we didn't see him and his people fight on the frontlines, if we saw him fight along sherigan and co against the shadows/vorlons, Clark dictatorship and Psycorp we would have had a inbuilt sympathy for him. Plus if he was less of a cult.

Byron was indeed "off" as a character, and fully agree that his group was quite cult-y. Robin Atkin Downes is a prolific voice actor in animation and video games. After beating Fallout New Vegas I had a good chuckle when I was watching the credits where he's listed as: Robin Atkin "Don't Call him Byron" Downes 😀

@Phintasmo

4 ай бұрын

I completely missed that credit in Fallout NV! Glad to see he remembers where he came from, lol!

They didn't really land the "repentant" vibe with Byron either with his split from the PsiCorps. He had the sense of barely-restrained superiority when talking to most of the main characters. It gave him some edge, but it's certainly harder to relate when the character is a telepath supremacist.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

Him calling people ‘mundanes’ all the time was also a real turn off. You’re asking these guys to give you a planet, at least call them ‘non-telepaths’ or something!

@sneaksyranger

5 ай бұрын

@@Phintasmo I think "normals" was the polite word for non telepaths, but most telepaths would say mundane. Lyta did it to Franklin and Garibaldi, I think. Bester did it too, but we expect that from Bester.

Totally agree with this analysis. I absolutely loved (most of) B5, but JMS has an issue with his writing where it often crosses over into the pretentious, but then veers back into greatness. I think he did way more good than bad, though. When the casting was great, it was REALLY great. The characters of G'Kar, Mollari and Vir were perfectly played by those actors, and they carried the show on their backs for me. But there was also a lot of clunkiness, stiff acting, and not great casting choices. I don't want to be mean and get too detailed here, but I will say Byron is not the only British character I wanted off the show. I was so happy when the Byron story got wrapped up, and didn't even care how it was done. It was supposed to be tragic and I guess noble, but it was just empty and happily forgotten. The rest of the season was great, though. I swear I am not a hater in disguise. I genuinely ultimately love the show, and the incredible ambition of it's long form storytelling. I just can't ignore the issues either.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

JMS often writes dialogue that's a bit strange and unnatural. But when he finds actors who can make it convincing (like Londo and G'Kar) - its fantastic!

They rushed to finish a show in its fourth season, masterfully pre-written for 5. Then when they greenlit a season 5, side plots needed to take center stage, because JMS felt forced to tell the gist of what he planned to tell by the end of season 4, and so he did. That's why season 5 feels off. Everything was thrown off-balance by things happening in a different relative time-frame to each other, everything is just an ill fit to the big picture in season 5, because the big picture was condensed, and mostly concluded before the season even started. Imagine if Byron was on edge because the shadow war was still ongoing. Imagine what would have happened if the revelation that telepaths were engineered by Vorlons came to Byron when Vorlons were still around. Season 5 feels like an afterthought, because it is.

Was I the only one who cheered when he blew himself up. Yes i hated Byron and curse those 8 episodes he was in.

Yeah Byron was terribly portayed. The problem with Byron was that there was nothing for the audience to sympathize with. Not to mention the fact that you have him going up against the man who got up in a Vorlon's face and LIVED. Who went to Za'ha'dum, died and came back. Who flipped the bird to the Shadows AND the Vorlons at the SAME TIME... Who's mentor was the OLDEST sentient being in the universe... You have this messianic character and you give him a p12 with a chip on his shoulder as his antagonist? It was only a matter of time before Sheridan got tired of playing games and rolled over him like a freight train.

@Phintasmo

5 ай бұрын

Sheridan just seemed bewildered the whole season. Not the same guy from season 4.