I had a friend of mine who does calculus for fun... do a workup of these five ships... according to him. The Jem'Hadar Battleship weighs in at somewhere about a billion metric tons. Sovereign is tiny, as she is only about 3.2 million metric tons. D'Deridex is about fifty million and Hutet is about sixty five million. Sovereign... is NOT a battleship.

@0utc4st1985

3 жыл бұрын

Yes but you can build dozens of Sovereigns for the amount of resources it takes to build 1 Jen'Hadar Battleship. That makes the Battleship kind of wasteful since it's only 3 times as powerful as a Galaxy class.

@shep9231

3 жыл бұрын

@@0utc4st1985 Indeed sir :) I never considered that...

@paulrasmussen8953

3 жыл бұрын

@@mr.gadfly6249 exactly. We have at list maybe 3 movies. Tgat had about 20 galaxy

@traviswatts9082

3 жыл бұрын

@@0utc4st1985 Yep the Jem’ Hadar battleship is a do it all ship ( battleship/troop transport/exploration). This is the same argument I make with “the Defiant class is a pure warship that make it the most powerful” fan boys. No the Defiant class is not the most powerful Fed ship one on one but it is the most cost/ resource effective by far when it comes to a combat platform.

@seanabsher5577

3 жыл бұрын

@@traviswatts9082 imagine any enemy coming to starfleet and meeting up with 25 sovereign class and 90 defiant class and 120 Akira class starships... Most wouldn't stand a chance. Not to mention Klingons as allies and so on...

Most of those ship were built to set the weight class while the sovereign was designed to fight well above it's weight class

@shep9231

3 жыл бұрын

you make a fair, if somewhat uncomfortable point... :)

@Nostripe361

3 жыл бұрын

Its a stupid analogy but I see the sovereign alot like elves in some fantasy stories. Physically weaker but a real challenge to even hit while it peppers you with long range attacks from way to far away. Add in its remarkable targeting and you will see any weak points on your ship easily taken advantage of. Its basically a glass canon type battleship.

@GrumpyBearRawr

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nostripe361 I think it's a lot tougher than that. Scimatar was absolutely peppering the E which was hanging in there while it pretty much one shotted two brand new valdore warbirds.

@willyorgy4677

Жыл бұрын

@@Nostripe361 any ship designed to fight the Borg can’t be a glass cannon. They half to be tough, even with swarm tactics, because the Borg can easily kill single ships. The sovereign is definitely a tough ship, it looks tougher than a galaxy class. Just look at the warp nacelles, they are kept much closer to the ship than the galaxy. I hate to sound like a starfleet fanboy but the reality is that the federation trumps every other alpha quadrant power technology-wise. When they get their shit together and build an actual warship, they are unstoppable. Maintaining range is useless for the Hutet because a sovereign could just get behind the Hutet, no big guns there. If quantum torpedoes are able to rip craters into an unshidlded Borg cube, they should be able to absolutely destroy a dominion battleship with a brittle hull structure.

@DerDrecksack87

8 ай бұрын

​@@willyorgy4677 the feds sure can build good ships if the space hippies want to, but the most dangerous foes are outside of the alpha quadrant. The borg (albeit nutered by plot especially in Voyager), the Voth, the Dominion, species 847 and if you take STO into account the iconians, elachi & the rebuilt vaadvur empire, they all wipe the floor with them as long as the plot does not prevent it.

There's one major feature of the Sovereign that went completely unmentioned: Its regenerative shielding. Alongside the Akira class, the Sovereign was among the first Starfleet ships to deploy that breakthrough technology. They're shields that use multiple layers to absorb energy from incoming weapons fire to recharge themselves with the outer-most layer absorbing the bulk of the damage, and shunting a portion of the energy to the other, with each one rotating to maintain maximum protection. This system was originally designed to counter Borg weaponry and allows the Sovereign to endure hits well above her weight class for a prolonged period of time. Considering that none of the other factions featured here even came close to designing weaponry as advanced as the Borg, it's safe to say that at least on a per tonnage basis, the Sovereign would absolutely clean house here. I'd go so far to say that it would handily wipe the floor with every other ship depicted here save for the Dominion Battleship in a straight up battle.

The D'Deridex is the oldest ship on this list, as far as we know, but it still holds it's own. Give it up for grandpa!

@Epics00

3 жыл бұрын

You said that the D'deridex range was numbered at 5 but In the video you put the 5 in the Dominion Battleship's field. (14:39)

@gregpaullamb754

3 жыл бұрын

grandma, she's a lady

@shanenolan8252

3 жыл бұрын

They dont make them like they used to .

@enoughothis

3 жыл бұрын

@Snake Plisken, hence "as far as we know"

@shanenolan8252

3 жыл бұрын

@Snake Plisken well they said it was new in the episode and they hadn't seen it before, or else they would have had scanned it coming through the wormhole. I think it was a new design and that first one was on its shakedown cruise, then we don't see them again to ds9 finale and there are several of them defending cardassia prime. But the whole dominion arc started in season two ds9 and the romulan one started in season one tng with a warbird appearance that's at least 7 or 8 years no ?

The D'Deridex seems as much a submarine as a battleship. The fleet doctrine is just so different. You're not supposed to engage in a giant face to face fleet battle, you're supposed to sneak behind enemy lines, blow up their strategic resources (fleet yards, dilithium mines, terror attacks, etc), and then sue for peace or grind them down.

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

Yes the d'deridex is just as much a strategic weapon as a tactical one.

@chrissonofpear1384

3 жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 Also, why did you scale the Hutet-class down? It was way bigger, in Dominion Wars video game. Fun fact, a smaller Cardassian battleship design, the Liburnian-class, showed up in an old TNG novel, Debtor's Planet.

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

@@chrissonofpear1384 1600m was excessive i don't think it made sense for the cardassians to build something so big

@chrissonofpear1384

3 жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 well, with Dominion-help, maybe, as a prestige project. Still, it is a bit excessive.

@thehillbillygamer2183

Жыл бұрын

Listen you in human green-blooded pointyard hop goblin the Enterprise e would destroy a dedaridex easily and the phasers on The sovereign are more powerful than the desiredex being disruptors that is just ridiculous to think that it's older The sovereign was built to fight the Borg the thederedex beam disruptors are not more powerful than the sovereigns phasers it's just ridiculous The sovereign a dreadnought a battleship for the 24th century the fourth sovereign should be being in the Dominion war I think the USS sovereign was in the Dominion war and I think by the time the Dominion war is over they had about maybe five of them built they would have had six but they had to refit the Enterprise after that romulan b******* oh and the Enterprise defeated the super romulan ship the super Raymond warbird yeah it had to f*** it up to do it and data had to lose his life but they did it data would use the Kamikaze attack basically

Federation ships have Plot Armor, making them the ultimate battle ships. They can only be destroyed by 40 year old Klingon Bird of Preys. If destroyed by the Breen then they are immediately replaced with a clone ship and given the same name as before they were destroyed.

@Cerbyo

2 жыл бұрын

ancient klingon bird of prey weapons can breach a galaxy class's armour and destroy it, but a cardassian galore class can only do minor damage even with the shields down...there r 3 types of galore tho so mbe it was the weakest one lol. The takeaway is NEVER underestimate the bird of prey. Its a wolf of a ship. Sure it can be blown away in a single shot, but it has enough utility belt moves to tackle the most op of enemies.

@needparalegal

2 жыл бұрын

@@Cerbyo They used a Useful Idiot Geordi to lower Enterprise Shields/got frequency... Bird of Prey lacks the energy weapon firepower of a Galaxy, but its shields seem on par, and its got a single photon launcher front, and a single torpedo can wreck many ships even with shields. Torpedos are very strong in star trek.

I think the firepower of a Sovreign is understated hear. It had over 10 phaser strips and 7 photon tubes with one more quantum tube. The Sovereign fought the most powerful non Borg ship in Star Trek, The Scimitar, and while it anhélâtes two Valdores, which are more modern Romulan warbird than the D,Deridex. Also note how the Sovereign likely has regenerative shielding after you see how well it shields recovered in the Briar patch and Bassin rift

I'd rather be on a Borg-buster like the Sovereign against any of these one on one. Her class are a squad of lethal angels. But there weren't enough of them to impact the war. The NeghVar was slow and it's most powerful weapons were fixed forward. In a war, I'll take a fleet of Warbirds. Powerful weapons, cloaking systems, and surprising maneuverability the Warbird is purpose built for war. The Dominion battleship was a late edition and didn't have the numbers to pose a significant threat to Allied forces. The Hutet is beta canon.

@danielsuarez3198

3 жыл бұрын

Surprised the big daddy scimitar wasn't mentioned... It would eat all of them for lunch.

@occultatumquaestio5226

3 жыл бұрын

@@danielsuarez3198 ; Venom Geek mentions briefly in 7:20 that this a comparison on ships around during the Dominion War. The Scimitar is not combat ready until a few years after it is over.

@jamessullivan7692

3 жыл бұрын

@@danielsuarez3198 I don't know you might want to reconsider given the battle between the Enterprise and the Scimitar look at the pounding that the Enterprise took how many shots that she took and was still able to stay in the fight and the Scimitar received hardly any up until the end I think as I had stated in a previous comment on one of the other channels that had the Scimitar not been able to fire from cloaked position that it would have been a real fight between the Sovereign and the scimitar tell me what you think

The Hutet scoring middle of the pack is actually quite an achievement for the Cardassians. It demonstrates how quickly they caught up. And it is even more impressive if one considers they don't have a lot of experience building large ships. Up until the Hutet, at least in canon, the largest ship in their war fleet is the Keldon, which is only the size of a medium cruiser in most other fleets. I will say this though, the next generation Cardassian battleship will be very formidable. The Hutet, while enjoying the benefits of technology transfer, was still designed, and its initial work began, prior to the accession to the Dominion. The next generation battleship will enjoy the fruits of the full technological merger between Dominion and Cardassian technology. In particular, one can assume the secondary batteries will be much more powerful, probably just use Domininon large polaron cannons, will have better torpedoes and better launchers, a better warp drive and better endurance. Shit, they could just modify the Jem Hadar battleship design to suit their needs.

One factor I rarely see considered in these videos that I think is a very important factor; and which you may want to consider for future videos is the density of the ships per the area they are responsible for. For example if there are 20 sectors in the Klingon Empire and they have 24 Negh-Var ships to defend them, then an invader will face and average of 1.25 Neghvar ships per area invaded. If on the other hand the Dominion has 300 sectors, but only 75 Dominion Battleships, then an invader will face a Battleship a little less then one sector in 4. While the Dominion ships may outnumber the Klingon ships overall, in battle each individual Dominion Battleship would have to face around 7 Negh'var ships. Given this even if a single Dominion Battleship seriously outclasses a Negh'var...which they do, and if they outnumber them which is essentially guaranteed; they still may not be capable of handling the equivalent of 7 of them at once per-say. While not as significant offensively since attack groups will lump large portions of a fleet together, in defense this is a pretty significant factor to the value of the ships. Actually having ships to defend a location is sort of critical to an effective defense.

@the_baldy_scotsman6210

2 жыл бұрын

I like your point actually, like a smaller force destroying a larger by defeat in detail and by taking advantage of an overstretched enemy force. It’s kind of like how the Rebels were able to stand up to the Empire at Endor. Even though the empire had the numbers to commit 100s or even 1000s of ships to the battle, the size of their territory (plus other factors) meant that could only commit a force of 30-50 capital ships (I think, don’t remember the exact number). Now obviously they still outnumbered and outclassed the rebels but it made the battle a whole lot more even in terms than it theoretically would have been (Rebellion plot armour not with standing).

@the_baldy_scotsman6210

2 жыл бұрын

If we’re talking all out way but I don’t know how it would play out. I’m not overly familiar with Star Trek so my points may not be accurate however. If the Dominion are in absolute defence then the Klingons could use guerilla warfare tactics, relying on the vastness of the Dominons territory to make hit and run tactics viable, they could even use a defeat in detail strategy and attack reasonably well defended targets - relying on the Dominons hesitation to commit too many forces in case of a 2nd attack or rebellion on their own worlds (forgive me but don’t why use brutal occupations). But then again I don’t see them being this stupid, I think they’d counter attack there Klingons with a numerically superior force and put them on the defence, given the size of the dominion and assumed industrial capability then they’d have a lot easier time replacing lost ships than the Klingons, even if they lost the battle. Bit of rinse and repeat and eventually territory is taken and overtime the odds are just stacked more and more in the Dominions favour. So I guess the question becomes whether or not the Dominion worlds could be held, or whether the decreased Dominion presence in their own territory + the nightmare of trying to oppress (or even wipe out) the Klingons of all people would cause them to collapse from the inside. Plus there’s also the fact that a good chunk of the Alpha quadrant hates them and would be more than willing to back the Klingons, similar to what actually happened. I like your thinking, that’s a little different from “Ship A is more powerful than Ship B, so therefore Empire A wins due to numerical superiority. Nice one mate!

Love this kind of stuff. Grew up on a steady dose of Star Trek, Star Wars, and Star Blazers. Space battles are one of my favorite things :D

Did I miss it or did the video not mention the use of cloaking tech? I think cloaking tech gave the Alpha Quadrant powers an advantage (among many disadvantages). Romulan’s could fight way behind enemy lines, and Klingons could ambush a lot.

She is pretty much a battleship, or even a dreadnought by Starfleet and Alpha/Beta quadrant standards but is it fair to say that the Sovereign is a battlecruiser vs a battleship when you take into consideration her tonnage, weapons, and speed. And especially when you compare her to the literal other end of the scale, the Jem'Hadar Battleship.

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

yeah. i might have cut it because the original recording was 40 mins! but i mentioned you see the two ways battleship tech can go, either like the dominion battleship, with the huge lumbering dreadnoughts. or 'Fast Battleships' akin to sovereign certainly the romulans did the latter when designing the Kerchan.

@mosser-wm3dx

3 жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 I'm ok with a full 40 minute video lol

@cgi2002

7 ай бұрын

Considering its not a battleship, but a heavy cruiser (starfleet specifically did not make it a battleship) the battlecruiser designation would be better at a push. While it often serves in the battleship role in fleet conflict, it was never designed to be one (starfleet purposely did not build battleships, they avoided purpose built warships entirely beyond escorts). The dominions battleship is a true battleship, not arguement there. The Nev'gar is arguably also a battleship too when compared to other klingon designs dispite its poor overall preformance. The D'deridex though is unfair, its not the Romulans frontline warship at the point were the Soverign is in play, its a 2nd teir ship by then, the Valdore has replaced it as the frontline heavy warship and even then the reman Scimitar class (admittedly only 1 was built at this point) would be their best battleship and it wins hands down compared to all the others. The Hutet class though is straight up not a battleship, its a siege warship, designed for planetary assault and not actually fighting other ships, it would not even be a match for most lighter warships of the other factions.

I think the one thing with the Sovereign is I think the resourcefulness of a Star Fleet crew in a though situation can never be underestimated. I think that is the unmentioned X-factor that generally put Federation ships above their opposition.

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

true but its hard to rank an X factor. though the dominion would probably loose that one badly.

@SuperGamefreak18

3 жыл бұрын

Don t forget that the sovereign can be compared to the defiant expect actual room for everything they want

@aka-47k

3 жыл бұрын

its not called X factor, its called PLOT armor

@thehillbillygamer2183

Жыл бұрын

Torpedoes I guess the sovereign loses again bottom of the barrel right a******

@thehillbillygamer2183

Жыл бұрын

When gold do caught was the captain of that cargo ship the Kardashians didn't even have torpedo technology because wharf told major kira a list that she was not to share that with the Kardashians because the federation and the Klingons didn't like that they

Honestly the Dominion "Battleship" just because of it's sheer size and firepower but for some other existing reasons as well compared to the other factions, falls more under of being a dreadnaught than a battleship.

@Athrin01

3 жыл бұрын

a dreadnaught IS a battleship, they are the same thing, dreadnaught comes from the HMS dreadnaught that when launched made every other battleship obsolete at the time, battleships before dreadnaught are called pre-dreadnaught battleships and post dreadnaught are called dreadnaught battleships, the "dreadnaught was latter dropped to just battleships, Super battleships tho is a thing and that was they call the would have been but not built successors to the Yamato class. (Battlecruiser is a battleship with less armor but more speed than a normal battleship, see Hood vs Colorado class)

@occultatumquaestio5226

3 жыл бұрын

@@Athrin01 ; That is the case in real life navies yes; but not in Sci-Fi. The two are considered separate class categories. _Star Wars, Star Trek, Halo, Mass Effect, 40k, Star Craft, Eve, etc._ all have Battleships and Dreadnaughts as different distinctions.

@jaigray5422

3 жыл бұрын

@@occultatumquaestio5226 True however they literally call the Jem'Hadar's ship a Battleship in Star trek DS9.

@occultatumquaestio5226

3 жыл бұрын

@@jaigray5422 ; And 10 of America's 21 aircraft carriers are called "Amphibious Assault Ships", & both of Japan's aircraft carriers are called "Helicopter Destroyers". What something is called and what it actually is in naval terminology can often have great disconnect.

@jaigray5422

3 жыл бұрын

@@occultatumquaestio5226 Those are auxiliary aircraft carriers hence why their named different, it doesn't matter what their named bottom line is they are still air craft carriers.

Love these breakdowns

I absolutely love these compare videos

Wow you really know what you are doing here keep making this kind of stuff

I would give any Jem'Hadar ship a fairly low range score. They can't stay out for too long before they need to re-stock on Ketacil White, which can't be replicated. Compare this with the USS Voyager that was able to stay out on its own with no minimal support for 7 years despite not being designed for it.

@atoll8423

3 жыл бұрын

In beta lore (since Hutet is included) didn't they develop a fleet tender with mobile production base?

@VVeremoose

3 жыл бұрын

@@atoll8423 that's still not individual ship range

@atoll8423

2 жыл бұрын

@@VVeremoose The "supercarriers" were designed to allow JHD fleets to operate deep into enemy territory

@deaks25

2 жыл бұрын

That's a pretty good point, even if there was a Ketracel White supply base/ship, it does leave the Jem Hadar ship tied closely to a very obvious and vital logistics train, so if it does maraud out, chances are its logistical supply will be targeted and then its left considering a variant of the old adage that an Army Marches on Its Stomach.

Another excellent episode of comparing starships of similar class during Dominion War. Was surprise by end result of the Klingon ship but your reasonings seems.... logical. 🤨🖖 While I’m thrilled with what you’re doing with starships. However.....I wonder if it’s a good idea to do statistics comparison of all conflicting species during Dominion War.

@mosser-wm3dx

3 жыл бұрын

Keep supporting the channel and maybe we will get more indepth reviews of each ship? 🤞

I'm so sorry but my heart belongs, first, last, and always, the Sovereign class. Nice job! More please!

The main other factors would be number built and ease of manufacturing more, which would probably go to the Warbird, maneuverability in an actual space battle using impulse engines and thrusters. which would probably go to the Sovereign, and maybe something like ease of maintenance and repair and/or reliability. That one is tough.

@willyorgy4677

Жыл бұрын

Since the sovereign has an advanced warp system, what’s to stop it from Picard maneuvering to get to an ideal position? Obviously dominion sensors are better than Ferengi ones, unless a ship is coated in latinum, but instantly going from one spot to another would be a big advantage. In a one on one, that is surely a more feasible strategy since there would be no other Jem Hadar ships to cover the battleship.

i feel a need to point out that in the dominion war we saw galaxy class ships fighting, and ones like the defiant, and excelsior class ships and nebulas. but no sovereign classes. reason why is they needed it for the movies, in which the dominion did not appear.

I think production could of been a big factor.

I still disagree with the sizing of the D'Deridex Warbird. I know that people have told me it's dimensions before but the thing is that it was supposed to be comparable in firepower and resiliency to a Nebula and Galaxy class which according to some measurements was MUCH MUCH MUCH smaller. No way in hell a ship many times bigger than a Galaxy class is going to be a match for the Galaxy-class. To me, the D'Deridex and Galaxy will always be relatively similar in size.

That was a really great video I totally enjoyed it very much could U do a comparison video with the cruisers of the Dominion War like the Excelsior class & the Jem'Hadar, Klingon, Cardassian & Romulan cruisers

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

definitely something im planning. though i don't know if the romulans have anything for the category and the dominion battlecruiser is technically overweight for the category.

@ussvoyager8650

3 жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 that's true but I can't wait 2 C the video

@ussvoyager8650

3 жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 what about the Breen ship that's smaller than a Excelsior class @ 300 metres

@mosser-wm3dx

3 жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 we would have to pull from games to really get something to fill the dominion and romuland slots. I kinda like the games depictions of the broader cardasian fleet as well

Love the episode where they say it's twice the size and 3x more powerful than a galaxy class in DS9 just to give you a sense of scale and power or the other way about. I personally like Weyouns flagship design more, it's more or less a more sleeker version of the Jem'hadar Battleship and of course alot smaller.

@chriseash6497

2 жыл бұрын

Weyoun’s ship was the Battleship, the one in Valient was a Dreadnought class.

@jacobaurelius5361

2 жыл бұрын

@@chriseash6497 no, weyouns ship was the battle cruiser, the one later encountered was the battleship, there is no dreadnaught class

@chriseash6497

2 жыл бұрын

@@jacobaurelius5361 I am talking tonnage class wise.

I wonder how the Galaxy and the Jem Hadar Battlecruiser would rank in

I am glad the Cardassians Hutet made it in the top 3. Not sure why I love the ships and weapons of the Cardassians so much. Maybe the no frills aspect. Maybe the look of sea creatures to an extent. The full colours. But the Hutet with it's massive array of torpedoes is just so appealing to me. The PC game Bridge Commander the ship was a modification and you could quite literally just barrage your opponent with an endless stream of torpedoes. Granted they were normal photon torpedoes. Granted you still had a while to reload them. But if you spaced it out right with just normal clicking of the mouse button, basically it sent an endless stream of them. By the time the last torpedo was launched, the first torpedo tube was already loaded and the barrage continued. If far away, the computer liked to maneuver out of the way. But mid to close range and those torps were hitting. However if the opponent was able to get through the forward shields and damage the launchers, you severely handicapped the battle ship. Still the beams were nice as a back up. A shame this never saw it's way in battle on DS9. I would of liked to see a few of these launching so many golden torpedoes, that they looked like twinkling stars in space.

@djayk9692

Жыл бұрын

The Hutet actually got its first screen time in the PC game ‘Dominion Wars’ where the Achilles class drops the Hutet and it’s support ships all on its own in the opening credits of the game kzread.info/dash/bejne/nmF9pbSQZZDfl6Q.html

I agree with your assesment save the last 2 I would have put the D'deridex last edged out slightly by the Negh'Var due to its armor giving it better battle endurance, especially at close range.

I would argue that the sovereign is more of a heavy cruiser rather than a battleship. But that's just me lol.

@allnamesaretakenful

3 жыл бұрын

I agree, it is a Heavy Cruiser.

@Euripides_Panz

3 жыл бұрын

Sovereign is the the film successor to the Constitution class. It eschews heavy cannon, armor, but retains speed, range, and versatility. Federation could easily build a Sovereign, a frigate or two, a number of escorts, and raiders for what the Empires spend on a single warship. Obviously, the Dominon has the technology and labor force to outbuild its rivals. However, after the war, much of this technology was was studied by the Federation and their allies.

@beaney56

3 жыл бұрын

@@Euripides_Panz in nemesis the ship has something like 16 type 12 phasers and up to 7 torpedo launchers including quantum. It definitely has the weapons of a very heavy combatant like a battleship. Not to mention it's shields which are almost endlessly adaptable and very strong to deal with the borg. Its just limited by its small size, volume and tonnage. That's why I class it as a heavy cruiser or battle cruiser I suppose. I think if the federation really wanted to they could create a monstrously powerful battleship.

@Euripides_Panz

3 жыл бұрын

@@beaney56 I suppose they could, but why would they? 1. Trek writers got a hard-on for battlecruisers. I mean they really do. They use the term early and often. For the most part, heavy cruisers and battlecruisers do the heavy-lifting in the franchise, whether it's noteworthy skirmishes, or leading fleet engagements, the cruisers are there. 2. Battleships are a rare sight. Whenever a ship in Trek is referred to as such, it's some kind of plot point where it's an urgent threat and often about to slag the hero ship. 3. Battleships are warships. They serve little other purpose other than a show of force. Something that may have been an occasional plot point in TOS is a dubious distinction by TNG, an era where the Federation doesn't believe in warships, where its largest and most powerful are the Explorer type. A warship, where Defiant was intended as escort/monitor/testbed, on the scale of a Sovereign isn't in line with the typical narrative writers to set in stone. A Dreadnought such as Vengeance wasn't a sanction contract. 4. I'm more of a frigate/destroyer proponent, with surges of curiosity towards "escorts," all types of cruisers, even carrier, and carrier-hybrids. The cruisers, frigates, and destroyers are the most likely combatants in an isolated skirmish. It's also the range of vessels we're most likely to see the Federation go with full-fledged warships. 5. The Inquiry-class seems to be much more of the warship/conventional Starfleet vessel compromise than Sovereign. It is officially a battlecruiser. 6. Sovereign was Federation reacting to increasing threats to which the Explorer was ill-suited, overmatched, or outmaneuvered. It drops much of the Galaxy/Nebula bulk, losing some multi-role capacity, but retains/gains powerful/more powerful weapons and adaptable shield systems. When the Sovereign was observed/perceived to have aft deficiencies, additional weapons were in line with multiple class starships seeing double-digit percent increases in offensive capabilities. This didn't lead to widespread ship reclassification, but makes for interesting questions. 8. Type 12 phaser arrays, though effective, may not be the "biggest guns" of the Federation. Prometheus supposedly had numerous Type 12 within the hull of a frigate. Likely, this points to Starfleet pouring increased resources into weapons refinements and follow-on systems. Simultaneously, Type Ten arrays seem as powerful as the story requires them. A single beam was capable to damaging Prometheus, and inflicting casualties, in spite of being at warp and protected by regenerative shielding and ablative hull armor. 9. Enterprise had quantum torpedoes, but quickly depleted what limited stock it had against Scimitar. Either this was because it hadn't restocked its magazines before going to Romulus (REALLY?) ...could they not be made available for the Enterprise, OR the Enterprise magazines simply weren't that large. If that be the case, either the writers gimped her, while Eaves fortified her (laughably possible!) or the Sovereign has very good armament, but limited endurance against more menacing opponents. 10. Finally, whether the Sovereign is officially Cruiser, be it heavy, attack, artillery (gun) battle, or some other type, it's arguably the the most likely starship class to engage the opposing counterparts. Sovereign is more than a match for the Klingon and Romulan counterparts, but the Dominion battleship is the only one we have yet to see get savaged. Super-Neghvar from the mirror universe was too large for it's own good on at least two occasions was seriously damaged due total lack of a tighter defense. The Dominion battleship got shaken, but not stirred by the same kind of attack. The Romulans lost their flagship early on the final assault of the War. D'deridex was no more able to withstand heavy weapons than a Galaxy. Meanwhile, the Battleship assault on Cardassian resistance fighter bases clearly show it the equal of multiple Orbital Weapons Platforms, combined.

@davidskr4924

3 жыл бұрын

I wouldn't say that Sovreign is a heavy cruiser, maybe at least battlecruiser (it was subclass of battleships, which was faster, and more maneuverable, it usully had firepower of battleships, but it was less armored, purpose of BCs was hunt cruisers and run from other battleships) but i wold say that ship that armed and with shields like that it's more like fast battleship.

Thanks great subject

The main flaw with this is that you should have had some kind of special capabilities category. The D'Deridex and Negh'var's cloaking devices would be huge in that as battle ships they could catch their target off guard which may be enough for victory... The target of the other ships could prepare their defenses when their censors detected them, increasing the chances of victory. Also a durability category would have been interesting. Shields, armor, evasive capabilities.

At some point (hopefully near future) I'd like to see one of these videos but between the hero ships. Adjusting for era of existence. And all that other ya-dee-yada. I'd more so just like to hear you talk about them and your rankings as well as any surprises you hit me with

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

possibly. though the score and ranking might be a little abstract...

@BANGOTRON

3 жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 I think you could pull it off fairly it'd just be hard to adjust/compensate for time era's

I have to admit, I never thought of the D'Daridex as a battleship any more than I thought of the Galaxy class as one. In TNG the Romulans seem to use it like a cruiser. I would have thought the Scimitar would have been the Romulan entry in the battleship category.

@venomgeekmedia9886

2 жыл бұрын

Well the scimitar is smaller than the d'deridex and post dominion war.

A note. Personally, I would class the Jem'Hadar, "battleship," as a dreadnought, rather than a battleship.

@spatialgaming1967

3 жыл бұрын

Mainly, I would do so because the only other ship class I can think, of off the top of my head, that matches its power is the Borg Cube. Bus my opinion of the dreadnought classification.

@JeanLucCaptain

3 жыл бұрын

IT falls easily into the class of Super-Capital ship.

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah I'd definitely agree with you on that.

@Jasmin_Pepelko

3 жыл бұрын

Dreadnoughts are battleships.

@spatialgaming1967

3 жыл бұрын

@@Jasmin_Pepelko some call dreadnoughts battleships. However, my opinion at least, is that dreadnoughts are the battleship' bigger, meaner cousin. While a fleet might have a half-dozen battleship class ships, in most universes, a battle fleet will only have a single dreadnought. Also, I remind you of the rarity of the ships in question. The Dominion Battleship, according to Memory Alpha, only appears three different times in the entire war, the prototype appearing in Valiant, one being used against the Cardassian rebels in Dogs of War, and in the final defense of Cardassia, and Cardassia Prime. This implies that the Jem'Hadar Battleship was both rare and enormously valuable. Thus, my opinion that it is not entirely correct to compare it to the others on the list.

Nice comparison! I wonder how the rankings would change if one considers also the strength of regenerative shielding, amount and/or type of hull armor, torpedo complement, number of beam weapon emplacements, and firing arcs. I suspect that the Sovereign would excel at regenerative shielding, torpedo complement, number of beam weapon emplacements, and firing arcs. It's a bit like the Galaxy class and other Federation ships where the shields are strong but once the shields are down it breaks like glass. That Negh'var probably has pretty good hull armor, but shields, disruptor emplacements and firing arcs are probably more limited than the Sovereign. The Jem Hadar Battleship...I don't know what its shield regeneration and firing arcs are comparatively, but that thing has to have the most hull armor of all the battleships, and it probably has a ridiculous # of torpedoes that could put the Sovereign's complement to shame. D'Deridex doesn't have particularly resilient shields and the firing arcs on the warbird are very constrained to the bow and stern; I don't believe it has any hull armor. The Hutet is a total black box to me in these areas. Who do you think would win in a ship-ship battle, assuming that the crews are equally capable: the Jem Hadar battleship, or the Sovereign?

@HeadlessChickenTO

3 жыл бұрын

In a straight out brawl based on numbers, Jem'Hadar Battleship easily. But considering other X factors, the Sovereign has a lot of options. She wasn't purpose build just for combat as she comes with really extensive and advanced sensor suites that could find a crack in the Battleship's armor much better then a Defiant can. And the pounding she took going toe to toe with a Scimitar leads me to believe the Sovereign would have the highest survivability amongst all the other choices, adding in her sublight speed and maneuverability. Theres a good chance a Sovereign could win, at least from a tactical stand point.

@T0ffik1

2 жыл бұрын

@@HeadlessChickenTO the pounding was for show... Yes it was generally thougher then a Valdore (as shields were used to protect smaller ship + feds do have probably best shields), but you can see that Shinzon is taking potshots not to destroy the Sovereign, while using much more focus fire vs the warbirds. He was playing with it like most bad guys do in shows. Sovereign never had a chance in any kind of fight vs 3-4x the disruptor number + around 5-9x torped power, double shields and stealth firing (as it was just over the top bad guy ship). And not even gonna comment on Scimitar being faster and more agile.

I believe that we often choose Star Fleet ships over other races vessels is due to us having more overall information on them. They get more screen time compared to the others. And yes, we are biased as well. Lol

Wouldn't it be more the galaxy class filling in the role of battleships? Sovereign class ships were pulled from front lines minus very special situations as you have mentioned. Galaxy and possibly nebulas were filling in the role of large warships. Often in your videos that they'd be the big boys to attack the larger ships, like the hutete.

Fun, thanks!

Great video

I have always thought of the Sovereign as a heavy cruiser, a ship that could do everything a cruiser can, and in some cases represent the maximum potential of a cruiser can do. The true Federation Battleship in my head cannon is the Polaris Class Dreadnaught/Titan. According to what little lore there is, it was a heavy ship around 1500m though no one can agree on the actual size. It was mainly used in a defensive role as it was slow in Warp Speeds, hence why no one sees it in DS9. However, it had enough firepower to hold off a fleet, so used to protect major shipyards and worlds. The Dominion rarely engages them and always attempts to outmaneuver them. Though it's probably no longer canon as the class was reported in Star Trek Online as a small Luan subclass.

@kevg1617

2 жыл бұрын

I'm a bit late to the party, but I'm quite certain you meant 1500m long, not 1500 kilometers long

@swssm4741

2 жыл бұрын

Oh no he must mean 1500 light-years long

It's my opinion that the dominion on the outset of the war was at least 1 generation of technology ahead of the federation and other powers. This is what gave it's fleet and their battleship such impressive power that was otherwise let down by not only their poor strategic situation, but by the advances made by their opponents. They used to even be able to beam soldiers directly THROUGH federation shields and ram attack their biggest gunboats with ease. By the end of the war their deteriorating strategic situation did them in, but frankly their technological edge was coming close to being almost totally lost. A giant dominion battleship is likely to be matched or exceeded by next generation federation gunboats, even if they are a third of the size! (And built for peacetime duties as well.)

@lordhawkeye

2 жыл бұрын

I think a fairer look is that the Dominion always had their ships built and designed not just for combat but for battle on the scale of interstellar war. Side note the upkeep on the Dominion economy to sustain that kind of naval power would be a heavy burden on their people. Not a big surprise they leaned on cloning. Genetically engineered soldiers bent to your will makes for very cheep and loyal troops and keeps the risk of rebellion very low within leadership roles that the Vorta occupied. The Dominion fleets kitted out to do battle at the drop of a hat to keep those species who have submitted to the Dominion under their thumbs and keep that cash flowing. Meanwhile everyone in the alpha quad was either in a holding pattern due to internal issues or focused on expanding through peaceful exploration thus not much funding was devoted towards a strong, battle hardened and ready fleet for war. Even with the threat of a war looming it takes a massive amount of time and resources to retrofit an entire navy of ships and retrain the crews for war. We saw with the Breen that even alpha quad factions have some tech on par with Dominion tech. Alpha quad factions simply lacked the full scale war economy needed to support it in a time of peace. And as you said the poor strategic situation was a real kick in the pants. The Dominion only had the economy of the Cardassian empire and what they had managed to bring across tech/resource wise with transport ships from home before the wormhole was mined off. The only thing keeping the Dominion from rolling over, once the alpha quad factions got their collective acts together, was the Dominion's impressive ability to replace loses. Again having clones really helped here. Growing and breeding battle ready troops and leaders in less than one year is an impressive feat when manpower is an issue. No new tech was going to be invented for the Dominion either as they could not spare the resources for that kind of research while the Federation did. I suspect that by the end of the war the Feds had actually eclipsed most if not all the warfare based tech edges the Dominion had outside of genetic manipulation. Not to say the entire Federation fleet had the most up to date weapons and armor/hull/shielding technology. Many ships were still of older models with older tech. Just that the Federation had better toys being equipped to their newest ships by that point which easily could go toe-to-toe with their Dominion counterparts and come out with the win.

Good video but you have overlooked a couple of glaring flaws of the Jem'Hadar battleship. For all it's power and size it has an obvious weakness by having exposed fuel tanks on it's underbelly which is an obvious target for any ship that's attacking it a couple of torpedoes in the right place and the whole thing could go boom like it nearly did when the Valiant hit it. Secondly for it's size and cost is it really that good? You could probably build 2 or 3 sovereign class ships for what it costs to make Jem'Hadar battleship (not to mention how long it takes to crew such a vessel) and I know what I would rather have.

Have you considered fleet command flexibility?

What about shields though? Which category do they fall under?

First until I relaod. Never got why people cared about this. Thanks for the awesome content Venom

Starfleet seems to have this habit of rushing a new ship out before it's ready. The NX, , the Excelsior, the Defiant, the Sovereign. After a while, we see their full implementation, and it is significantly more effective in all ways from their initial launch. Even the Galaxy seemed to suffer from this to a degree. I suspect this is intentional. It may be that Starfleet is never really certain how their ships will be tested by service, so they leave in a significant margin of adjustment for a later date, to adapt them.

Where in Alpha cannon is the Warbird stated to be “ slow”? In the episode Tin Man at the time it was thought to have a slightly slower top warp speed compared to the Galaxy class.

Did you include maneuverability? Seem to me like that’s usually depicted as a fairly important defensive metric. Shield effectiveness would have been nice too.

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

thats contained within tonnage

@aka-47k

3 жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 actually no you gave tonnage points high to ships with alot of mass, maneuverability would be exact opposite, the ships with the fewest mass should get most points, so you giving lots of points to ships with lots of tonnage could be seen as giving points for shields/armor, but not maneuverability, since then it would be the other way.

The sovereign has twice the firepower as a galaxy class. And Built to fight the borg.

I'm a little disappointed you didn't include the Galaxy-class (Dominion War Refit).

I'm no Feddie loyalist, I tend to agree with Lore Reloaded's vids too much for that, lol. But I honestly think the Sovereign Class could still openly take a Dominion Battlecruiser in a one-on-one fight. Assuming two major factors: 1.) The Sovie helmsman was crafty enough to keep out from in front of the opponent ship, preventing a hard target lock. 2.) The Battlecruiser had no escort assistance. At that point, the Sovereign would just gingerly drift around the back of this thing in circles pelting it with quantums until it exploded. It's simply what the Sovereign Class was literally designed to do. Its entire design philosophy was built around it dancing around and taking on ships 3x or more its weight class. A factor I've also come to call "Shinzon's Folly" lol. It's a bit OP, actually.

I think the viewer poll was right. The Sovereign would dance around the slow Jem’hadar battleship, evading it’s weapons fire while striking at every disrupter port that opened fire. After the Sovereign clears a hole in the fire, they plot a course for a torpedo run, unleashing a full barrage of photon and quantum torpedos from all 12 tubes (keeping in mind this is pre-refit). The slow and lumbering Jem’hadar battleship wouldn’t stand a chance. If that’s not enough, check the numbers between the Reman Warbird Scimitar and a Jem’hadar battleship’s weapons compliments. You’ll find the Dominion lacking in that regard, and we all know how well the Enterprise held up against the Scimitar, Valdore-class ships be damned lol.

@davidskr4924

3 жыл бұрын

Only reason why scimitar was able to fight against Enterprise E, if Enterprised try to shoot against cimiter at least just into space, it would probably win the fight. Scimitar was too damaged from that fight, even with only 1% of shots from Enterprise actually hit him.

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

i think you underestimate the battleship's ability to tank damage. all the all the time sovereign is dancing its gonna be pummeled by torpedo fire. and if she makes a single mistake and strays into the arc of the seige guns.... thats it. while the scimitar is a very good comparison since it was likely based on dominion tech. take into account that unlike scimitar (who's stated loadout is dubious...) we don't have solid numbers on the battleships loadout.

All of the Star Trek KZread vids say that Cardassian Spiral Wave Disruptors are "weak." All on screen evidence indicates that the have the strongest beam weapons of all. They have been seen on screen one-shotting Jem Hadar fighters, two shotting Breen Warships. Two shotting Miranda's and one shotting Klingon BOP's. Why do people keep saying that Cardassian Beam weapons are weak? Their shields are shit, but their beams wreck everything. It's nuts.

I think this probably under-rates the Sovereign's combat maneuverability. It doesn't square up and trade blows, it maneuvers out of an opponent's weapons arcs and mag dumps torpedoes. Any ship small enough to keep up with it is heavily outgunned and outshielded.

1) Tbh a important role just as speed is stealth/strategical maneuvering and ambush potential, thats how submarines work (1 conventional swedish sub took out a US CVN class while his whole fleet was searching for it) or fast airstrikes on key targets, and that would bring in mostly Romulans and Klingons points, as it not only allows for better/smarter ship usage (what the Klingon/Federation war showed in DS9) but also magnify the firepower (as you hit in most cases enemy in their weak spot). Considering we have a category of Strategical use its wierd that this key feature/tactic wouldnt counted in. This would add 5pts to Romulans (as even D'deridex with newest cloack would be not possible to detect by Sovereign just like Valdores and Scimitar was), 4pts to Klingons and basicly 1 for all other races. In DS9 Romulans were the nation that took the smallest loses (ofc they though shorter) but from what we hear in the series is that basicly Romulan campaings were almost always succesfull with minor loses, and only major loss was losing the command ship in battle + the battle vs Breen energy dampening weapon. This would make the score: Battleship 34 D'deridex 25 Hutet 24 Negh'var 21 Sovereign 27 If you wouldnt want to give that as separate option but make it into capability, then D'deridex is with 5, Battleship 4, Negh'var 3, Hutet 2, Soveregin 1 (and this means Battleship 32, D'deridex 21, Hutet 21; Negh'var 19; Sovereign 25). 2), in TNG and DS9 we can see that Cardassian spiral disruptors are very weak weapon - subpar to even old Klingon/Fed weapons, Even the deflector main dish spiral disruptors are weak, it isnt logical tbh to take just a 2x bigger but the same type disruptor to be super powerfull tbh. While we can clearly see in DS9 episode that few hits from Romulans Disruptors basicly blown up the whole station (when the shields were off) but ofc by miracle chance Space Jesus Sisco got warned through time and save DS9. 3) Romulan D'deridex disruptors when you look at the hull, are giganctic and are somewhat the size of Hutets disruptors (the copule is actually of the size of the gunfiring point of Negh'vars heavy disruptors). Tbh i do think that they are at least comparable to Siege ability to quantum torps (as torps arent the best vs shields and space stations and instalations do tend to have them). Also i dont know from where the idea comes (side note) about D'deridex having 6 disruptors where even the creator said it has at least 10-13 ones (and in TNG they do seem to have as long range as phasers, and similar power on that long range). 4) Negh'var tbh yes has probably weaker sensors, but it shure has way more troops and way more transporters for capturing ships, while at the same time has similar ship commanding abilities if not higher considering Klingon fleets to tend to be more numerical, so i would put it on the same spot as Sovereign. Tbh i would say that the Hutet would lose few points, While Negh'var gain few and maybe D'deridex got 1 more point. To sum things up. 1) I do fully agree that the Battleship was the best as it was basicly 4-5x the cost/size of other ships. 2) While the refited D'deridex would have slightly less points then Sovereign, as even when it was more selfsufficient + had more fire power then Galaxy it still probably wasnt on pair in firepower, and not on pair with shield technology (as the huge size made shields weaker). While it had advantages in utility and stealth. Also i like to add that its stupid we see in show only this ship. No navy can function on 1 ship class (to bad they cut out the thicker belly and back of D'deridex like original had - for more fighter/scout bay). The canon bird of pray, scout, or even non canon shirke/R'tan class/R'derex class - some of them were already in books or other shows pre DS9, and would make the whole romulan side more in depth. I know they used D'deridex somewhat like federation Galaxy class - a representant to project power and fear (and it seems they were easier to produce then Galaxy - just look at numbers), but rly 1 ship through 2-3 shows? Also It shure had to be resource draining to build so many (even if probably cheaper then Galaxy as its not as minaturized) ships, where some smaller more dedicated ships could have the same firepower, and you dont need everywhere an all can do minibase. 3) But generally looking at Alpha canon the Cardasian disruptors (even heaviest) were at best almost on pair with other powers of the galaxy and this would make it lower in points in firepower etc.

🤯Whaaaaaaat? I was aware that the Romulan Warbird was bigger than the Galaxy and possibly the Sovereign but dang I didn't realize the extent!

Interesting video

I love the federation warship USS Prometheus but if I have to pick one, I would say Battleship Scimitar from nemesis. I like ship that can go full salvo and top-of-the-line starship can get blown up in 1 pass by.

if you look up the Dominion war game intro you will see the orginal also had a lot of torpedoes

If it's the Cruiser line next, what would the choices end up being? Klingon: K't'inga or Vor'cha? Cardassian: Galor Dominion: Jem'Hadar Battlecruiser Romulan: ? (We don't have a see a very diverse fleet on screen) Federation: Galaxy, Akira, or Excelsior? Also, it's dependent on the cruiser breakdown from there: Light, normal, or Heavy? Battlecruiser or not?

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

yeah Vorcha, Galor, and Excelsior for sure. but yeah the romulans don't have anything. and the Jem'hadar cruiser is technically too heavy being a Battlecruiser.

exellent video, but you are putting of a score that could make or break any of those points. Namely a special categoryt, where you have to compare cloak, vs what the federation has going for it and so on. because the scores themself don't say much when things like cloak firing from cloaked position. or any other tactics that any race could deploy against the others.

I don't think I've ever seen this answered before, but why is the Federation the only one to utilize phaser strips or ribbons on their ships? Their firing arcs are unsurpassed.

@jamesmagill5433

3 жыл бұрын

Think that why it’s accuracy is rated so high.

My only exception to this VERY well thought out analysis is this... How many ships per resources spent to build them? One Jem Hadar Battleship per, what, 3 or 4 Constellations class Federation ships? That is an easy calculation, The Federations WINS!!!

@vincenzo2206

3 жыл бұрын

true, but not with constellation class ships, maybe Akira or Steamrunner class ships though

@HolyGhostpally

3 жыл бұрын

@@vincenzo2206 BEEP BOOOP BEEEP BOOP, Don't get Technical with me. I was desperate, had to bring C3PO in to save the day.....LOL

Doesn't the sovereign have 16 type 12 phasers (Starbase grade)? As well as rapid fire torpedo launchers? The phasers on the sovereign would be significantly more powerful than the romulan cardassian and klingons energy weapons

I really need to start building bigger ships the sovereign class is light in handy but it doesn’t have the fire power and the range of a larger capital vessel if we ever had to find the jemadar again it would be bad news for the Federation

I agree with your rating. Although, I do have a soft spot for the Sovereign class. Just a beautiful ship.

I was going to protest that the Sovereign shouldn't be considered as a battleship but then I remembered that the Galaxy-X was alternate universe only and never a mainstay ship.

@Athrin01

3 жыл бұрын

canon wise the federation never built what could be considered a battleship.

im sure stealth and surprise combat should be an separate scores here. Both Romulans and Klingons are mainly focus on those skills and that proven to be great advantages in many tough and unfair fights won by those tactics.

Would a star ships tonnage effect manouvreing in deep space like it would in a gravity well like near a planet. What i wonder is can massive ships manouvre really quickly in deep space and kind of result in battleships being at a massive advantage.

I think there is one item that has been missed out from the Strategic category and that's "Availability", ie how many exist and how many are available to the factions at any one time. Obviously the D'Deridex would score well as it was still the primary unit of the Romulans so they had loads of them to chuck at a fight; a sort of Quantity over (absolute) Quality, and as the saying goes; "Quantity has a quality of it's own" For the Sovereign, I've always held that this was the successor to the Galaxy class in the modern, war-footing Federation, so there would likely be plenty, probably with one per major fleet group at lest. Plus, Starfleet was shown during the Dominion war at being able to churn out ships pretty fast so could probably ramp up production if needed. N'egh'Vahrs were uncommon in Klingon fleets, with only the Negh'Var herself at the time of the Dominion war if I remember rightly, which means if it is destroyed, they're all gone. Maybe one or two others exist during the Dominion War, but are likely early in their career so may not be available for operations. I suspect with the Hutet that the Cardassian's probably couldn't build them at a particularly rapid rate and being such a departure in size, the design would likely need extended development and testing time. And like the Negh'Var, being a very new design there may not be many fully built and even fewer in actual commission for combat operations. The Jem Hadar Battleship is a curious one. Cardassian shipyards were unlikely to be able to build them, so the handful that the Dominion possess are it, I've not researched it extensively, but I'd guess at most 5-10 of them. How many were available for actual combat, given they would be major targets for the Alliance is a good question, but if they had 10, perhaps 7 would be available at any one time. It also means, because there is no way to replace them, each Battleship destroyed is a permanent loss, which might affect when and how it's deployed, meaning that even if there is good operation availability, few might actually be deployed except for major engagements, while D'Deridex's are at every battle and Sovereign's turn up at regularly as well. How that affects the score might be interesting to look at. If I remember correctly, the Jem Hadar Battlecruiser seems to be the more common vessel, although much smaller than the battleship, and might be an interesting addendum to see how it stacks up to these five. OK, thought waaaay too long about this, I'm stopping now. I like these videos that make me think and expand my own reasoning.

I know I don't know as much about these ships as you but looking at the capabilities of these ships I think of the D'deridex as a strategic logistical ship. Designed to support the control of an empire within an empire not necessarily making war on other powers outside the empire. I would make a great platform to operate campaigns against rebel worlds and forces. I just don't see it as a "battleship" used against competitive powers.

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

interesting idea, lore reloaded mentioned something similar in his Romulans Vs Ferengi video. the only thing i will say is that romulan warbirds essentially have infinite range + the cloaking device. and so the D'deridex works something like a Deterrent. because as far as the federation know, there could be a Romulan warbird sitting above any federation planet. ready to strike

You didn't even mention one very important advantage for the D´Deridex and the klingon ship .... clocking technology

All the ships apart from sovereign strike me as a point blank range knife fighter while sovereign dances around the battlefield quicker then the rest. I think that this would also pretty effectively nullify any fighter advantage applies by the other ships. Keep the fighters out of their range and take them out with quick phaser bursts. Now hutet I don’t imagine would be very useful on its own. It appears to have a lot of forward and broadside mounted weapons but has a huge vulnerability on its back, and it doesn’t seem to make very hard manoeuvre. Like the destiny ascension in mass effect it would be outmanoeuvred and gunned down by lots of smaller ships such as the josh,hadar fighters, bird of preys and defiants or sabers. Plus it is mounted with disrupters and not phasers, disrupters are very effective against unarmored targets and less useful against shields. So against absolute tanks of a ship like a sovereign or a negvar or a dederidex it would be less useful because they have massive regenerative shields which disrupters would be less useful against. The negvar and dederidex would also suffer from then same problem because they also use descriptor weapons and unless they can get a good short range lock on their target then their weapons would be pretty much ineffective. So at range the dederidex I would say has more of a chance than hutet. The dominion battleship would suffer for its hide mass as well, as we see in valiant it is very slow and dissent turn well meaning it would be a sitting duck to the slow siege weapons even at range.

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

i agree although i will point out that both the negh'var and D'deridex have cloaks so can close the gap to effective range.

The sovereign has type 12 phasers. They are a significant upgrade on type x phasers.

can the sovereign actually be considered a battleship

Venom could you make a video on the hutets specifications

@venomgeekmedia9886

Жыл бұрын

A shipchat? Yeah it's probably time I gave it another look.

What about the Breen Battleship? I don’t know, did they have one?

@venomgeekmedia9886

2 жыл бұрын

No they have one in STO but that's much later.

What would you rate the Odyssey class ship USS Verity as. A Battleship or a Dreadnought.

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

so i mean it is from the 25th century. but im guessing its the biggest federation ship? certainly i could see it as a dreadnought.

@GRIGGINS1

3 жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 Yes but the Verity itself is from the 2380s So the plans for it came out as a result of the Dominon War I would guess. Maybe the Dominion Battleship inspired the Starfleet to build this class.

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

@@GRIGGINS1 quite possibly the 2380s being the time of lower decks would make the odyssey a monster.

Always laughed that canonically, a D'Deridex has a compliment of 1,500, when that number was laughable for something as enormous as a Galaxy class, let alone the goliath city sized ship that is the D'Deridex.

D'Deridex is the strategic master of the stars. Powered by a black hole and armed with the best cloak and powerful short range weapons. It wins if used properly!

Negh'var 1 large disruptor 520,000 2 Heavy planetary disruptors. 975,000 20 standard disruptors. 32,500 each 4 torpedo 173,000 each Att 3,737,500 shields 3,965,000 hull 1,040,000 around this DS9.full deff 5,005,000 Warbird Tal shiar vs DOMINION 6 disruptor each 175,500 TW. 2 torpedo 173,000 each 12 shot volley 2,106,000 Att 1,183,000 Shields 975,000 Hull 2,145,000 Full Def 2,925,000 dead DOMINION based of prototype only vs Uss Valiant Said to be 3x Galaxy class. Chief O'Brien analysis Canon information Shields 5,265,000. Hull 3,120,000 Deff 8,385,000 Att 3,315,000... I have no official data on weapons any manual that is official. Polaron beam 65,000 Torpedo Dreadnought 65,000 Torpedo Cruiser 337,500 Polaron beam Cruiser 337,500 Sovereign 685m 12 type Xll 125,000 TW each 5 torpedo 173,000 shot 12 each ? It says never seen Shields 2,275,000 4= 325,000 torpedo is 60% of Shields Att 5,325,000 Updated Sovereign class 175,500 scimitar shot each 44 shot from scimitar Shields down Full Shields 7,722,000 Hull 23 shots Shields down alive very damaged 4,036,500 Star Trek Cardassian Dreadnought class insufficient data.

@chrissonofpear1384

3 жыл бұрын

Hmm, where do you get shield strength figures from, @Trek Wars ? Having collated Klingon Academy game figures, I need ones from other games too, like Bridge Command, SFC3 etc.

I remember dialogue in episode valiant that said the jemhadar battle ship couldn't travel more that warp 5 because of its mass

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

i'd have to rewatch but if so that would make it very slow.

@shanenolan8252

3 жыл бұрын

@@venomgeekmedia9886 yes , remember the valiant was damaged and tracking it but they couldn't get the ship to go faster that warp 3 till nog repaired the ship , I believe the lack of speed was expected because of the near vulnerability of the ship and ot was reserved for specific types of missions like defence of key strategic locations, . I believe there was a similar thin Voyager with the kremin time ship at warp she couldn't go past warp 4 become her mass .

Still in Operation Take Back we see only 2 Klingon Birds of Prey and the USS Defiant just blowing up one big Jem H'adar battleship. In the alternative future in TNG's All Good Things we see an (enhanced?) Galaxy class easily dispose of 2 Negh'var ships, so it would make sense a Sovereign would really annihilate them. The D'deridex is more a fishnet ship than actually a ship, it contains so much open space, nonetheless we see in the episode Message in a Bottle (Voyager) 1 of these ships being destroyed and the other 2 chased of by simple 2 Defiant class, an Akira class and eventually also the Prometheus joining, thought not fully operating because of the inexperienced holo doctors on board. And for the rest, we would not really know what Starfleet has done with the shielding technology and transphasic torpedoes brought in by Voyager when they came home.

Why are you not including the Galaxy class ship in the comparison but using the sovereign class instead?

What about the three nacelle galaxy class that was a battleship as well and it ripped through neghvars

@venomgeekmedia9886

2 жыл бұрын

but thats from an alternate reality and i personally regard it rather silly kitbash.

Only 5,000 troops for the Jem Hadar battleship? A US Aircraft Carrier is about half the length of the Sovereign, with about 1/5 the width of the Sovereign and carries a total crew of about 5,000. The Dominion battleship has many times the volume of the Sovereign. I think 100,000 is a more reasonable number. By the way, I have a ship design of my own that I think would take the top spot in *all* of those areas by a long shot.

@HeadlessChickenTO

3 жыл бұрын

Unless the Jem'Hadar battleship needs somewhere in the 10s of thousands to man and maintain, leaving only enough room for 5000 dedicated troops. Plus I think her hull armor is extremely thick, a lot of bulk but not a whole lot of actual extra space internally when you take into consideration how many auxiliary crafts she could carry.

@kevg1617

2 жыл бұрын

@@HeadlessChickenTO i don't think you quite understand the physics of it, and he said 100 000, which is a pretty good estimate in my opinion, so even if it takes 10k to man (highly unlikely as that is just stupid ship design) that's still only about 10% of the crew to man it.

I still think the Negh'Var should rank higher than the Warbird. I'm most impressed by her thick armor plating (take a good look at the studio model), and while not wholly conclusive, the firepower she demonstrated in defeating DS9's shields surpasses anything we've seen the D'Deridex do to a comparable target. Besides, ton for ton, Klingon warships tend to hit above their weight class. A Bird-of-Prey is about the same overall mass of a Jem'Hadar attack ship, yet we've seen many times that the Bird is a superior ship. Point being, the Warbird might outmass the Negh'Var, but I still think the latter would kick the former's ass In a one-on-one fight.

What happened to the shields category?

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

thats covered under tonnage

There is no consideration of count granted they are all small numbers except for maybe the D'Deridex partly because its an older design and also because of Romulan tactics favoring not only stealth but also outnumbering their enemy. How many times have you seen the enterprise surrounded by 3 Romulan warbirds? and that can make a huge difference in this lineup.

Is there a reason you didn’t include the valdor?

I have to say, the fact that the Jem'hadar battleship needs auxiliary fuel tanks is actually a negative. Their range matches the Sovereign-class, but the Sovereign doesn't NEED extra deutirium tanks to do so.

@chrisortega7521

2 жыл бұрын

Also, the Jam'hadar battleship is purpose-built: it does 1 thing, meaning it's capabilities are...ONE! The Soverign can do whatever you need it to do, wherever you need it.

@chrisortega7521

2 жыл бұрын

I would say, to be fair, you could simply replace the Enterprise in Star Trek: Insurrection, or, perhaps, any TNG-era movie with any of these ships to see how they would truly fair in their respective roles. A Romulan D'deridex would've been destroyed at the Bazen Rift; same for a Negh'Var, Hutet, given how they fight, and possibly the Dominion Battleship as well, just because of its shear mass.

I agree with what's been said. Maybe the Klingon and Fed ships should be heavy cruisers. They're just more awesome than a typical Galaxy or Nebula class, not significantly bigger.

I think you need to add one more column, it is "build and deploy time", because beter number its a thing in war

@venomgeekmedia9886

3 жыл бұрын

i did for attack ships but i left it off here because the D'deridex would stomp everyone.

All those external fuel tanks on the J’em Hadar battleship are a potentially huge liability. In concentrating fire on the underside stores to breach their shields, it would take only one Quantum torpedo to covert a fair amount of that deuterium slush in one of those tanks into a fusion bomb. The Dominion would have done well to build those tanks into the ships superstructure where they could better protected.

@T0ffik1

2 жыл бұрын

that was in SD9 show, the fueltank explaoded but it is space so the exploasion from a torpedo of a Defiant class ship did nothing to the main hull.

I'd like to see any of them hold up to a 40k battle barge and a fleet. Their torpedoes have space marines and dreadnoughts aboard.

12:55 the math on the table is in error. The sovereign should have 12, not 11.

In regards to this, my own opinion in each category: Tonnage; I got not much to add other than I didn't know the Dominion "Battleship" is 1500m, that's 18m shorter than a Valiant super-heavy cruiser from Halo & a hectometer shorter than an ISD. By _Star Trek_ standards, I'd consider it a Dreadnaught. Energy Weapons; When it comes to this category, while Sovereign has less overall phasers, they do appear to have a much wider firing arc than the other battleships, leading to a greater amount of overlapping firepower. By the latter half of the Dom War, polaron weapons seem to lose much their initial sting. The Hutet indeed has a moment here. I'd go Dom, Rom, Car, Fed, Kli for the 5-1. Torpedoes; Here I think you are not giving the Sovereign enough credit. While the Valiant is heavily armed for it's sized it as a Defiant class is still only an escort/attack ship and one that has been behind enemy lines for two years at that so no wartime-refits; it is not to surprising that few direct hits for a much larger vessel than took it out. Quantum torpedoes (at least until Voyager brings in transphasic torpedoes & excluding non-mass produced devices) is one of if not the most powerful torpedo in the Alpha Beta & Gamma Quadrants and as you even later mention the most accurate. I'd go Fed, Dom, Car, Rom, Kli for this. Siege; Yeah, I agree with you there on all of these in regards to siege weapons. Range & Accuracy; For this time as well, I likewise agree here. My Tactical Score: Dom; 17. D'der; 9. Hut; 12. Neg; 7. Sov; 14. Warp Speed; Once more I agree with you here in these regards of measurement. Range; I'll bring up how every ship class in Starfleet that has an Enterprise in it is well renowned for it long-range deep-space exploration abilities, as well as given the Federation's deep interest in recycling it can use more with less. The Romulans on the other had are not only 2nd smallest faction in this comparison (in area of controlled space & fleet size) but as you had repeatedly said much older and slower; with the Romulans using a singularity core they do have an edge but basic thermodynamics make it that the D'deridex would need to recharge eventually, but akin to a nuclear sub it would be a long while until it needed to. Rom, Fed, Dom, Car, Kli I'd give this. Capabilities; First, a better name for this based on how you describe it would be capability to operate both independently and as a flagship (which honestly each should be it's own category). After that I agree with the placement of the Dom and Kli battleships, but the other three I am rather unsure of, so I'll just keep it as is even if I do think it to be somewhat off. High Speed Endurance; For this once again I share agreement with your positions on that. My Strategic Score: Dom; 14. D'der; 11. Hut; 10. Neg; 9. Sov; 16. My Total Score: Dom; 31. D'der; 20. Hut; 22. Neg; 16. Sov; 30. Overall; All 5 ships are still in the same rank, but the comparison between the Dom-Bat & the Sovereign is closer. Some other categories could be; mass production, defensives(shi/arm), redundancies, sensors, minimal crew size, etc.

17:45 If going off and being independent didn't end well for the Hutet, it's not fair to say that it can go off and be independent. Intention must yield to observed reality.