Heh, I can totally understand this split view on him. I think that "It's not like Chopin should sound!"-like thoughts create the hate towards him. And that's okay. Music is about taste. Don't like this style? Vote low for him. That's why there are multiple members in the jury. The pro argument is taking the same thought on a whole new level. "It's not like Chopin ever sounded!" It's new, it's refreshing. It behaves like 20'th century music to 19'th and before. New, unconquered and full of "mistakes" and "ungodly playing". Against every norm, just for the artist himself. And conservatives hate new things, things they don't understand or don't want to understand, because conservatives stopped moving at some point in time. Everything has to sound exactly like "the composer intended it" (and "better"). And who's to judge both sides? No one. Because art is taste and we don't argue about taste. Both sides are reasonable and understandable. I like jazz and spicy harmonies because they're different and new. Others hate it for the same reasons. It depends on you. That performance was astounding. In good and bad ways. Everyone chooses for oneself on which side he stands. But no matter if you like or dislike it, we can agree on one thing: it's exceptional. The bravery alone, to perform like this with a conservative jury like that, is exceptional. This is, what music moves. (And the conservatives don't even have to fear anything (like music changing to the worse or smth. like that), because there are plenty other artists that will play the way they like.) I, personally, dislike it. It's like a stormy ocean, without any control. It's just natural power, waves clashing against the keys. And I don't like it. But the reason is, because I listen to Chopin to enjoy music. This is not joy, this is mastery of art. It's new, and as I repeated so often: it's exceptional. This makes me adore it. I don't like it, but I see why some of the jury members gave him full points. I like my Chopin conservative, but in a jury, maybe I'd have given him full points, because as a jury member I wouldn't only think about my personal joy, but also about the development of music. As a society we prefer individuals that bring new ideas, push boundaries and bring us out of our comfort zone. This is, what he did. Tldr; I understand both sides and find them reasonable. I don't like this performance for enjoyment, but for artistical reasons. Thank you for bringing this to us.

@arthurhorowitz5345

Жыл бұрын

Thank you so much for your detailed comment! I agree so much that we shouldn't argue about taste! When we are discussing performers at this level, there isn't necessarily a right or wrong. Rather, there is just preference. I think it takes a mature and secure person in themselves to reason in this way. I do think that one of the hardest things in life to do is be yourself. Whether it is at school/work, in a relationship or on the concert platform. It would have been so easy for Pogorelich to 'iron out' his quirks in an attempt to win over the judges. What a fantastic review of the issues that were presented in this clip. I am astounded, your point is so well thought out and you articulated the complexity of your thinking impressively. Thanks again for the comment and your tremendous perspective. Personally, I enjoy this recording. You said it sounded like 'a stormy ocean, without any control'. It is for this reason why I enjoy it. I feel like I am on a boat in the treacherous sea and although it is dangerous and scary, it is rather thrilling. This provides me with much joy, knowing that music can be thrilling, so much so, it is almost adrenaline inducing. Equally, I completely accept that you wouldn't classify yourself as 'liking' the recording, because you listen to Chopin for joy and to enjoy it. Based on your parameters, it is clear for me to understand your reasons and it makes perfect sense to me. I truly believe that the world needs more people like you, who possess the skills to honestly and fairly weigh up the pros and cons from both sides. Without condemning either side and actively accepting/promoting that it is okay to share different views. You have an understanding that your parameters of thinking won't be the same as others (and that that's okay!!!) (if you can't tell...) I loved your comment!

@randomchannel-px6ho

Жыл бұрын

I found it quite interesting that Argerich took so much offense to the this "snub" as I often times find myself disliking the liberties she takes with her interpretations, not so much because I'm against using pieces for personal expression and more so that I believe interpretations should be informed upon what the composer's intentions were and then have personal elements built upon that vision. For example people often cite her performance of Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit, but to me it sounds sloppy and rushed, aiming more to be a virtuosic showoff instead of truly invoking the poems which inspired them. There's liberal use of rubato whereas a quick study of Ravel would tell you he liked his rhythm to be performed rather precisely as notated and for rubato to be used very subtly and sparingly. I am not automatically against transformative interpretations of works pushing or flat out breaking beyond what was actually written by the composer, but I feel as though such an act must be informed by a thorough understanding of what the composer intended with that piece. As Picasso said "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist." Personally I find this performance or chopins work to be reflective of an utter disregard for the original intention of the work.

@survari722

Жыл бұрын

@@randomchannel-px6ho Have you heard of the "Author's Death"? Maybe it has another term in English, but in German "Tod des Autors" refers to a theory, that it's actually irrelevant what an author intended for his works. The creator of the theory stated that later interpretations are allowed to give the piece a meaning or message the original author never intended. I read about this theory in a discussion if students should interpret their own art pieces. The student felt really offended about the teacher giving his own interpretation of his own work a bad mark, because he said he didn't intend many thinks and just did them because he liked. In fact, I think that many (if not all) composers do this too. But why is the author's death necessary? There are basically two points that make this theory quite relevant, and show a philosophical answer on "why" and "how" we interpret pieces of literature, art, ... 1. We don't know the author anymore personally for most classical music. We can't ask. So the "author's death" is meant literally here. Without him, we don't know what he intended. We can try to think the way he did, but we never know how accurate we are. Playing classical music is like recreating the old latin pronunciation: We have some books and people who describe latin pronunciation, but we can never be sure, we don't have a time machine to review what we created. 2. Even if the author lives, it's unimportant what he intended. Interpretations are made by humans, so they are biased. Even the most neutral scientific study is biased. We can try to sort out these biases, but then it's not art anymore, but like playing a recording. The bias of every interpretation changes because society and humans change over time. Interpretations of art are mostly with regards to either modern day problems or problems of the author's days. Argument 1 is in fact irrelevant. Because not achieving doesn't mean trying alone is unnecessary. On the same way one could argue that baroque playing should not be done, because we don't have baroque musicians here to check it. In general there is another thing about baroque playing (don't know the term, I think of musicians that try to play like in baroque times) here: One could say, if we continue the point of view I stated in this comment, that we also should not do baroque playing, because it ignores the author's death. It's not new and not "If you know the rules you can break them," it's just a "You know the rules." And actually I could believe it if someone told me that some people think like this in reality. But from the same point of view you could argue, that baroque playing is "new" and "refreshing" because it has never been done before, because it's against all norms we do today. As all interpretations are biased with today's world view this contradicts baroque playing. (Of course, in reality it doesn't conflict, as baroque playing is the mix of interpreted sources and artistical talent of the modern world. It's more about the frequency. If one played it more frequently, it would be the norm, so it would not be artistical and new anymore.) I don't want to stand against your opinion, I just wanted to show you what there is from the other side to say about your arguments. I too find it quite interesting, that "Argerich took so much offense go this 'snub'," because if she had stayed, more of these pianists would have had a chance. Musical conservatism is not bad, but it slows the evolution of classical music down. (I mean, obviously, else it would not have been called conservatism.) That's why there are plenty of artists who oppose this, saying there is not the "right" way to play music, even if the author's intentions are clear. But there are also many people who would agree with you! And that's totally okay, because, as I said, as it's about taste. The good thing is, that there are plenty of musicians on both sides, so there's much to enjoy for everyone :). PS: I need to calm down, I didn't even notice how much I wrote... Sorry. And there's too much going on for a tldr here.

@skern49

Жыл бұрын

only in classical music circles do people refer to 170 year old music as 'new'

@novagerio9244

Жыл бұрын

Perfect comment!

"Competitions are for horses, not for artists" - Bela Bartok.

@sherbetdab1200

Жыл бұрын

Brilliant.

@Pantera1001

Жыл бұрын

I agree with that fully, but at the same time I think it has it's place - wrong as it is

@sherbetdab1200

Жыл бұрын

Bartok was extremely cool. The competitions are good exposure for new talent and if someone with a controversial approach stirs things up, it’s not necessarily a bad thing.

@brunomillot787

Жыл бұрын

Well, the best pianists (artists) came to light thanks for this competition. And they all played better than Bartok

@giannottister

Жыл бұрын

@@brunomillot787 I disagree, sometimes the best pianists don’t win competitions. It’s not math.

I remember that Chopin recommended his students to interpret his music in their own style, because he did not want them to be a copy of himself, he encouraged them to look for their sound...

@robosing225

Жыл бұрын

Yikes. Looks like the judges were not aware of such a belief as that from the man himself.

@masonkpiano

Жыл бұрын

I believe that was Liszt instead. Maybe he got it from Chopin, but Liszt was a HUGE proponent of this philosophy

@igordrm

Жыл бұрын

Fits perfectly with the romantic era spirit.

@piotrmalewski8178

Жыл бұрын

Mind there are thousands of possible interpretations, none of which will sound so far out... Maybe Chopin wouldn't mind, but maybe he would have changed his opinion if he met Pogorelich. At the end of the day, the competition expects the performers accordingly to the tradition, and that a good performance should resonance the dances and other patterns or sounds parts of the pieces were inspired on. Of course you can argue, that you can beat a chess master by throwing pawns at him, and eventually score a knock-out, but it's not what chess game is about.

@igordrm

Жыл бұрын

@@piotrmalewski8178 It's much easier for one to claim for tradition, because it's an idealized past, and abstain to look beyond. Technically the performance was brilliant, and Pogorelich's commital was manifest.

Something a teacher taught me once was that the way we play music nowadays it's only an aproximation of what we thought it was, because unless you were there, you have no idea how it actually sounded, there is a lot of things you can't put on paper. I always find interesting watching people play any song on their own way, respecting what the autor wrote.

@arthurhorowitz5345

Жыл бұрын

Great comment, thanks for posting it. I think the same as you. I love to think about how the composer would have actually played their works. I mean.... they composed it, but before they wrote it down on paper, it came from their soul. We will never know exactly what was going on in their head and heart at the time, their thoughts and emotions. But boy do I love trying to guess through the music! So entertaining😂❤️

@Necrotem

Жыл бұрын

​@@arthurhorowitz5345 I totally agree with you, that's why i think that regardless of the taste on music or how people think something "should" be, people should learn to enjoy differents aproximation to the same song, there is a reason why some covers blow up even more than the original song, arrangements or when they orchestrate it. It is the same song, and at the same time, it doesn't. I think the same way with interpretations. It's music, it should be like you said "i love trying to guess through the music! So entertaining".

@Alissa_21

Жыл бұрын

👍👍👍

@alexanderjefferies7740

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. This is something at music school that my musicology professor spoke about. It’s particularly important to think about when it comes to historically informed performance, when it comes to playing with A=415 instead of 440 and playing on period instruments, technique, phrasing, expression is found a little in accounts from the time but not much else. Unless you were there it’s only an approximation from what we have access to.

@mackiceicukice

Жыл бұрын

Little correction -people play pieces of music , not “ songs”.

"Play the way you feel, put all your soul into it!" Frederic Chopin

Saw him a few months ago. I will never forget his rendition of the Berceuse. That man is a magician. Never heard such a range of dynamic, such genius. A gift for humanity.

I actually like how he plays my pieces, naturally, spontaneously, not as if he was preparing a perfect dish for a competition that doesn't like too much salt which is going to be served a desk full of perfectionist but similar creations.

@survari722

Жыл бұрын

Yes, sounds like his playing originated from a brief temper/mood (don't really know how to translate it; like a very short lived or spontaneous emotion). He just played what he wanted to play, in the way he wanted to play.

@cam-mg1ki

Жыл бұрын

OMG CHOPIN

@arthurhorowitz5345

Жыл бұрын

😂😂 Thank you for blessing my KZread channel, Fryderyck!

@arthurhorowitz5345

Жыл бұрын

Great description!

@kaleidoscopio5

Жыл бұрын

You were obviously too high when you composed this prelude 😏

The controversy was unduly amplified by the political climate of the Cold War, and has unfortunately been interpreted in that light, to the detriment of all parties involved. A few thoughts: 1. Argerich, Badura-Skoda, and Magaloff protested Pogorelich's elimination from the 3rd round. That does not imply they would have awarded him a top prize. It only means they would have wanted to hear him in the Final. 2. The scandal was not about Pogorelich vs Dang Thai Son, at least with respect to the jury. Dang Thai Son received a perfect score in his 3rd round performance, meaning that the jury was unanimous (ie includes Argerich, Magaloff, and Badura-Skoda - not just Soviet jurors). In fact, Argerich sent Dang a congratulatory telegram after he won. And the two have sat on juries amicably since then. 3. Competitions have never been guarantees for unwavering success, they are just opportunities. Nor are they infallible markers of success. Not winning a competition does not equal losing it. Dang Thai Son developed opportunities that he never would have had, had he not won - and Pogorelich gained great opportunities as a result of that Competition. Arguably, they both "won". What matters more, at least as an artist, is how one evolves aesthetically beyond any given achievement, as great as that achievement might be. Art transcends punditry of so- called conservatism vs novelty, scandal and "conspiracy", cult of personalities, etc. It compels us to strive for greater and nobler ideals. "Must" one choose between Tureck, Schiff, or Gould? By appreciating Richter, must I disdain Gilels or Horowitz? Does admiring past masters require looking down on potential future masters? In Art, do there not lie deeper truths than the above false dichotomies?

@mackiceicukice

Жыл бұрын

Well said.

@piotrmalewski8178

Жыл бұрын

I would only add that the competition has always had specific expectations, and at that time in history, there were still competitors who had no idea how to play specific pieces because of the lack of communication between conservatories around the world. And these mistakes could be serious, such as playing Mazurka in a tempo of a funeral march. I was at a lecture, when professor Jasiński, who was in the jury, talked about this competition, and from what he said, it seems that several people in the jury, got an impression that Pogorelich was an arrogant guy who had no idea what he was doing.

@piotrmalewski8178

Жыл бұрын

Also, one of the reason the whole Chopin competition was established, was to promote a specific way of playing Chopin. After his death, Chopin's music was for a long time considered bad and even 'miscarried', even in Poland, and we know that at that time it was played differently if at all. It took a lot of time and work, including consultations with people who learned from the people, who learned from Chopin himself, to establish general rules of performance and make it work, and this is when Chopin's music, with this rediscovered tradition becomes popular again, and when the competition is established.

@Itemtotem

Жыл бұрын

This is not a competition of artists it is a competition of performers

@tphi1980

Жыл бұрын

@@Itemtotem Are there any pianistic artists who are not performers? And which competitions are for artists?

As a composer it always surprises me when I hand over my music to the performers. They would play it in a way that was different to the way I would have in my head as I wrote down the music, even though would have followed exactly what I would I have written in my sheet music dynamics, articulation and all. Performers bring new life to the works that I write and I'm sure every composer including Chopin would be impressed by a performance, no matter how much it would differ from the actual interpretation of the written score, as long as it brought a genuine and compelling interpretation of the original music as Pogorelich did. It is sad that many of my colleagues have to go through tiresome juries to be appreciated for what another man thinks of the music and not their own. Of course, if someone were to stray completely away from what is in the score then that is another story but never will I accept people that can't recognize a talented performer just because they have a daring and personal interpretation of the music.

@VianoMusicAcademy

Жыл бұрын

Bingo!

@Tempusverum

Жыл бұрын

Chopin would agree with this sentiment. In his letters, he mentioned Liszt’s virtuosic interpretations of his etudes breathed a new life into them

@kennichdendenn

11 ай бұрын

Even straying away would be something Chopin - whom his colleagues referred to as a genius of improvisation, after all - could very well have appreciated.

He played this insane piece of music with the perfect amount of insanity. In this piece, the whole world is falling apart, and the performance should reflect that.

Unfortunately, the classical community is not generally open to reinterpretations and are indeed entrenched in their own conservatism. The genius of Pogorelich and Gould is the ability to reimagine and in a sense “re-compose” the work to shed a new light on it.

@Poreckylife

Жыл бұрын

You are absolutely right. Your comment reminded me of my grandma not willing to budge an inch for her generational potato pie recipe. I said she should add just tinny bit of black pepper to it but she refused 😆. But than I made her pie recipe and added more pepper without telling her and she liked it 😆😆

@gusemiester

Жыл бұрын

Exactly this!! Music should be played however the performer wants it to be played as that is how they prefer the piece. It especially annoys me with romantic era music where it was all about musical freedom and your own interpretations. But now the classical community has just stopped moving forward, they just stick to the tradition like you mentioned and they shun anything new or what the composer didnt intend (whatever that means anyway)

@zewensenpai

Жыл бұрын

@@gusemiester except that is literally just not how all things works. Sure for Chopin you could have more room for freedom but if you try that with Webern or Stockhausen or some spectralist or serialist good fucking luck. It’s never as simple as “this is the only way to go about it.” Also sure the performer should have some freedom in works but if you just ignore the composer or not respecting their work and material at all you should go play jazz and not classical. At certain degrees it’s just too much. Not here with the Chopin, but just in general

@gusemiester

Жыл бұрын

@@zewensenpai literally at the end of my comment I said do what you want as long as it's roughly what the piece is written as. Besides I play for fun, not concerts or god forbid a competition. Anyone who plays for fun should be able to do literally whatever they want with the piece

It is why competition in art is stupid, if we would be very honest about this. I agree such competitions are very useful for many things as pushing people to do better, making them famous and popular, promoting art, celebrating the art and so on, but the only big problem is that art can't be really judged, because art is the most subjective field. When artists are doctrinated by others as teachers and judges, how they should do things, it starts to lose its artistic side, and starts to be a mechanical, objectified job in the factory. Yes as student you need to learn the techniques and musical knowledge in the schools, but after you reach a certain level, you need to do more than that. Nobody can exactly know how these musicians in the past very exactly playing these pieces, so I definitely find is stupid, when somebody says he/she plays it like Chopin. We don't even have any footage or recording of him...

It feels unfair for Dang Thai Son too. He is also an extraordinary artist but yet his talent is overshadowed by this whole scandal

I saw him play at the Ionescu Festival in Bucharest (then a really great event purely about the music) it was the early 2000's and it was the first time he had performed in public for quite a long time. He was very eccentric finding the applause between the pieces so disconcerting that we stopped. There had been some concern that he may not actually play. He did. Scriabin and Chopin I particularly remember. It was magical he had the audience on the edge of their seats unsure just what he would do and play next. At the end when people were standing, shouting and some crying he just stormed off the stage embarrassed. Painfully shy missing his skin. A genius indeed.

@chopin4321

Жыл бұрын

Yes... he is so timid... so shy.. so delicate.. he needs infinite love cause he gives all his love and energy to us.. and he is left empty.. he needs us.. for what he did.. perfect beauty, eternity.

To use music interpretation as a competing tool is like using a baseball glove as mittens

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I loved this. Can't remember the other contestants.

Pogorelich's absence from the finals exemplifies the nature of piano competitions and why they're loathed by so many. Incredible talents have emerged from these competitions, to be sure, but you definitely need to play the game within certain traditional boundaries and follow a checklist in order to win. Ultimately, it makes sense that Pogorelich's unorthodox renditions weren't well received in such a buttoned-up environment, but I'm so glad they found their way outside the competition's walls.

Young Pogorelich , inimitable Artistry. Made some benchmark recordings. Great vids of he and his wife working through Ravel’s Gaspard de la Nuit. Love the young Pogorelich Artistry. Love the fact that he started a foundation to encourage young musical artists’ development in his home country ( I believe Lang Lang started one, also, for Chinese youth). After Pogorelich’s wife died of illness, Pogorelich’s Artistry changed. I believe he had a competition in his name, which Gwhyneth Chen, a Taiwanese woman was the female winner. Part of the prize was to practice with Pogorelich. I believe I read that she stated Pogorelich practiced 12-14 hours a day.

The world would be so bland without interpretations like these. Performing everything the same... ugh. It stifles artistic creativity.

Alright guys Pogorelich is a genius and shouldn’t have been cut that early, but Dang Thai Son 100% deserved to win it all

@Sahasrarasmi-Sancodite

2 ай бұрын

You don't have to have just ONE first prize winner !! There are instances where a jury feels that not one. But 2 individuals are worthy of the same prize, so they can adjust and give BOTH ARTISTS THE SECOND PRIZE OR EVEN THE FIRST PRIZE !! But the soviets wanted only one prize to be awarded to vietnamese pianist, so the jury HAD TO comply with those political requirements. No matter how good any one else was as an artist. ❤❤

1:42 HOW?! 1:51 holy sh- the septuplet octaves

That run at 1:42 is ludicrous, ridiculous, preposterous. What a monster

His playing has not aged so well.

You can hear the piano going out of tune as he bangs on it lol. For the record I own his recording of this entire opus. Love it.

Bro was wilding ong

there are performers who are perfect, and there are artists that transcend the work as written. Pogorelich is clearly the later.

In any artistic endeavor, there are three variables: the intentions of the originator, the personality of the performer, and the tastes of the audience. No surprise that there are so many varied "takes" on any given performance. Bach gave no directions, leaving much room for the expression of the performer. When the originator does leave indicators they are only approximations (how loud or quiet, how fast or slow, etc) leaving the approximations up to the performer, but the intent should be honored or the performer becomes an originator. When Gould took the Brahms at that outrageous tempo, Bernstein complained, but acknowledged that the performer gets to express himself too. I think the big question to be asked is about the validity of any "competition" when it comes to art. What makes the tastes of a group of judges absolute? How can one grade art, or beauty? Judging just introduces another layer of bias. To my way of thinking there is no better or best, just different. Let the audience decide for itself!

@robosing225

Жыл бұрын

This prescription or layout of what should be definitively the way art must be at any given timeline falls in the hands of the zeitgeist. just like fashion comes and goes, preferences change, some things are more tolerated while others not so much. A system involved that judges art represents the standards of that current timeline. But a timeline hundreds of years before or hundreds of years in the future will absolutely have a different system of preferences which new judges or the holders of standards must adhere to, corresponding to that timeline. Basically it's a necessary evil, even if you dont agree with it.

pogo has his own artistry

Pogorelich performed Chopin's Sonata no.2 in this same competition. It is the greatest performance of that work ever recorded.

@davidmathews4524

2 ай бұрын

You haven't heard many recordings I would imagine Pollini and rubinstein are my favourites

I think Pogorelich is an amazing pianist, both in terms of his absolutely monstrous technical quality and his ability to offer unique interpretations (I particularly enjoy his Chopin Sonata 2). However, I do find his behavior quite childish in the 1980 Chopin Competition, including his behavior in the third round, his idea of trying to trying to drum up political controversy, and smearing Dang Thai Son later in interview.

@lollycopter

Жыл бұрын

I think there was very much a vindication for Đặng Thái Sơn after his student Bruce (Xiaoyu) Liu won the 2021 Chopin Piano Piano Competition. This achievement from Liu and Đặng speaks for itself.

@fb7876

Жыл бұрын

@@lollycopter Ever heard a more boring winner of the Warsaw competition than Bruce Liu?

@cubycube9924

8 ай бұрын

@@fb7876💀

@Sahasrarasmi-Sancodite

2 ай бұрын

Pogorelich months before entering Chopin Comp. was requested by moscow conservatory officials not to enter Chopin, Because soviets wanted vietnamese pianist to enter and be awarded FIRST PRIZE, as a citizen of an Allied communist country, and Pogo was TOLD THAT THE VIET PIANIST was going to be selected as first prize winner !! Also in 1980 Poland was under soviet domination and the Chopin Comp was therefore under soviet political influence. Whatever Pogo may have said in the interview about the vietnamese pianist was because this viet pianist had been pre-planned by soviets to be the winner, and Pogo knew about this setup way ahead of his entering the competition. Since he chose to go ahead and enter the Comp, Despite knowing in advance that the jury was going to preselect the viet pianist, despite his performance and entering the Comp. POGO was aware he did not stand a chance against the soviet politburos choice and award in this matter. Pogo knew from even before he began to play in the various rounds, that he was not going to be allowed to go on to the finals. He had been warned and advised not to enter the Comp. But he chose to defy soviet political choices and play for the world audience anyway. And the musical world is the greater and better for Pogorelich choice to enter the competition. Damn the Torpedoes, full speed ahead. Musical humanity should be very grateful to this great musician for making the choice to play in the competition, and have these memorable and defiant recordings for posterity to cherish, and we, "the unwashed and unworthy", are ever grateful to Pogorelich for sacrificing his art and personality at that critical time of soviet dominance in the world.❤❤❤

No one should win this competition except for Chopin. 🫠

It' would be a revelation when it was pre-decided to give a Vietnamese participant the first prize. But seriously, weren't there any more participants from Vietnam? Vietnamese pianists in general are super-rare.

I agree with those who contend that piano competitions chiefly serve to promote the extremes of technical excellence at the expense of creativity.

Let's assume Dang is like Thalberg and Pogorelich is like Liszt: the first is the best while the second is only one of a kind.

@jimkost2002

Жыл бұрын

🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯

The best pianist, to my taste. The depth of his tone is hard to reproduce

Louis Kentner: “We have different aesthetic criteria”. A statement which is both obvious and insulting at the same time.

Wow. What a fiery, unique rendition. I usually do not prefer “unorthodox” interpretations but this was something special.

If Chopin was alive at the time this competition was held. They would get slapped. Chopin literally told his students to have an interpretation of their own and that they shouldn't be limited by what the score says.

I think this is a pretty good explanation on why piano competitions are bound to ne shit by concept

I saw all the fuss about him on YT when I was a "newbie" to the classical scene, and I have to admit, I did NOT like his interpretations at first, but the more I revisit them and the more I let HIM dictate how I should experience the music rather than the preconstructed sense of the music that I already had, he grew on me so much that I became obsessed with his playing for a while.

Pogorelich's interpretations of Scriabin are first-class IMO.

Absolutely gold! Was waiting for after our conversation last week ;), keep up the great videos!

@arthurhorowitz5345

Жыл бұрын

Thank you so much! I am glad you stuck around to see this one😀 It was our conversation that inspired me to do a video on the subject. So thank YOU for the idea.

This is why competitions like these are just bullshit, people shouldn't take them as seriously as they do

My first classical piano album was of Pogorelich playing Chopin. I entered a new world and will forever be thankful to Ivo Pogorelich. I fell in love with Chopin again during the 2021 Chopin piano competition in Warsaw. My favourite never made the awards, but his was the interpretation that touched my heart once more. His name is Lee Hyuk.

Ivo transcends competition.

I love this performance!

His recordings of the Preludes are my standard.

when Magaloff, Badura-Skoda, and Marth A are behind you....what else matters.

It’s said that you’re not a real artist if you don’t cause mixed opinions. It’s also said that competitions are for horses.

L'esecuzione più vera, drammatica, straziante e dolorosa di questo Preludio. Nessuno come lui. Neppure i giovani pianisti emergenti che vincono i concorsi internazionali in giro per il mondo. 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

One of the best interpretations and the one that got me into piano

Bartók said competitions are for horses. Except in horse racing you can bet and lose some money. But the squabbles and viscous infighting seem to be the same.

Pogorelich is a wonderful musician, so naturally people get polarising opinions. We all listen differently, and I feel what he plays in a verry emotional way. One musical competition played some role in his career, and at the end he made itnjust fine. Heard him play 2 years ago, and he is really something else. He played "Gaspard de la nuit" by ravel at the end of the concert, and most of people who came to hear him play chopen were looking around the hall, I loved it, He made it sound like it's from the universe. Also played bach at the beginning, his piano sounded like pipe organ (not literally though). It takes a special soul to do those things.

he still is a genius, and still people don't understand him

@arthurhorowitz5345

Жыл бұрын

😂 Yeah, I think that is probably the case for most genuis folk!

@ganjamozart1435

Жыл бұрын

Not sure if he is still a 'genius'. I heard him recently and if experimental sight-reading of repertoire at 1/4 of the speed is 'genius'...

@aechreuploads

Жыл бұрын

@@ganjamozart1435Then you should listen to how he plays Gaspard de la nuit (Ravel ) , Prokofiev Sonata n6, Chopin Sonata n2, Chopin Scherzo n3 , Chopin Scherzo n4 , Chopin Scherzo n1 , Chopin Scherzo n2 , Chopin Ballade n2, Picture and Exhibition of Mussorgsky, Chopin Etude Op10 n8 and 10 , Chopin etude op25 n6, Scriabin etude op8 n2, Bach English suites n2 and 3 , Scarlatti sonatas , Haydn sonatas , Mozart sonatas , Schumann Tocata , Schumann Symphonic Etudes and then maybe you could tell us if you still think that he’s not a genius.

@null8295

Жыл бұрын

@@aechreuploads in my channel there are a few recordings of him playing

@aechreuploads

Жыл бұрын

@@null8295 What’s up in it ?

I find this performance to be hauntingly beautiful. A lot of his recordings make me roll my eyes, though.

Thanks for this video, it's a very original and interesting way of presenting the material, great stuff! Regarding Pogorelich, I guess he's like a rare cheese, you either like him or you don't 🙂

I can see this the both ways On the one hand, he is technically awesome For example, the runs are perfect On the other hand, it’s not clear he’s delivering Chopin’s music. For example, the melody line gets lost Amidst all the complicated textures. And that’s part of the challenge of Chopin’s music

His album of the Chopin preludes are by far my favorite. Especially his performance of the F# major prelude.

@danlo5

Жыл бұрын

That album just explodes with creativity. I prefer Moravec but Pogo's preludes are a treat to listen to from start to finish

I remember well the 'discussion' around town then It was an opportunity for copious amounts of gossip. My heart went out him.

What the hell is the purpose of studying and playing music, or any art for that matter, if the highest prestige one can claim in their art is being a robotic mimicry of what some arbitrary panel of judges deems the “correct interpretation”? The whole purpose of art is expression and performance.

@guitarbrother1234

Жыл бұрын

Then is it a crime that he didn't win the competition, or is a a crime that he entered a competition in the first place? If your position is that competition in this form has no place in music, they are all in the wrong here. I think it does have a place, and I think they made the right decision.

Geniuses are almost always hated (or disliked, if you prefer a less provoking term for those overly sensitive souls) by the mediocrities.

"ooga booga. ooga boog here, look ooga booga"

Competitions are for horses

@arthurhorowitz5345

Жыл бұрын

is that a quote from somebody? or yourself! I feel like I have heard it before?!

@arthurhorowitz5345

Жыл бұрын

oh I just looked it up.... Bela Bartok!!! That's the one (interesting fact: I was on holiday in Hungary just a few days ago!)

Basically your lie in april moment

Im not qualified to make a judgement, and will guess that 90% of people commenting will not, either. However, Martha Argerich is a _hugely_ influential pianist who is also hugely renowned for the intelligent and passion with which she plays, and I would trust her judgement of the situation. Meaning that, if she says he’s a genius, then he’s a genius. Do I enjoy his playing? I dk, it’s hard to tell from one piece, but his approach is definitely challenging to my taste, but I like to be challenged so it doesn’t matter much!

Я думаю что если бы иво пропустили в финал, го не дали бы первую премию, он сейчас был бы менее популярен. Стоит задуматься сколько для мировой музыкальной культуры сделал Погорелич со своей эксцентричностью и сколько Дан тхай шон со своим трудолюбием и талантом. Для шопена вьетнамский пианист сделал гораздо больше чем Погорелич

And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

It's definitely revolutionary, bold, provocative and genious! Musical interpretation that takes one's breath away, that leaves one stunned, that shakes a very core of one's being... Plus brilliant technical skills (indespite comments of some malicious souls who mentioned, like, "misteakes" - I didn't notice any coz I was carried away by uniqueness and intensity of artistic expression as well as marvelous technical performance ...). Bravissimo!

Pogorelich is the typical case of a performer you either hate or love. We love to hate him, and we hate to love him. I personally love him and I rank him among my absolute favorite pianists. First of all, you just have to admire his monstrous technical abilities, whether you like him or not. He could play literally anything and execute any interpretive idea he had worked out in his mind. His musical ideas are precisely what's so divisive about him. His interpretations were so willful, even strong-headed sometimes, that it couldn't leave you indifferent. His ideas didn't work all the time, but when they did, they caused you to completely reconsider repertoire you thought you were familiar with. His recording legacy for Deutsche Gramophon perfectly reflects that. I would say his Brahms album is one of his least successful ones. Pogorelich seems to enjoy getting himself in trouble, but his Brahms sounds like he created more problems than he could find solutions. On the other hand his recording of Prokofiev's 6th piano sonata and Ravel's Gaspard de la nuit is revelatory, especially the Ravel. This interpretation of Gaspard de la nuit has to be one of the greatest things ever recorded by anyone and holds a well-deserved legendary status. It's just that good. In any case, his style is inimitable. I will also add a comment about this performance of Chopin's D minor prelude, and the section starting at 1:53 in particular. The score indicates a triple forte and "stretto", which means "tightening". For some reason, every single pianist slows down when they get to this section, which is literally the opposite of what Chopin wrote. Every pianist except Pogorelich, who plays it exactly as indicated, and it sounds so much more exciting.

@leonidpronin4141

Жыл бұрын

Spot on

@jimkost2002

Жыл бұрын

Excellent assessment

Try to listen Alexei Sultanov at 1995 chopin competition. Genuine artist and beautiful human being. Thank you!

go play like this in your piano exams and tell me how it goes lmao

In this clip we see a tormented young man attempt to murder a piano.

@LockportDan

11 ай бұрын

Ha! Wonderful comment.

@Sahasrarasmi-Sancodite

2 ай бұрын

LOL !!! and the piano has 88 treacherous keys to attack. mutilate and retaliate equally back to Pogo with; but Pogo has only ten fingers available to commit instrumental murder !!❤❤❤❤

Dang Thai son should have won anyway

@gojewla

2 ай бұрын

He plays better now, but the recordings I heard from the competition were atrocious. The barcarolle is widely available and it sounded like a piece of wood. It’s unfathomable that nobody was better than that.

@Sahasrarasmi-Sancodite

2 ай бұрын

​@@gojewla2:31 ❤❤❤

@Sahasrarasmi-Sancodite

2 ай бұрын

​Dang Son was the choice. Not of the jury. But of the soviet politburo that wanted the viet pianist from communist north vietnam to be awarded first prize. That decision had been made months in advance before the competition even began. And Pogo had been advised of what that outcome was going to be, that the viet pianist was going to be awarded first prize. No matter who else entered or played in the competition.

Isn't it just a normal thing at competitions that artists who polarize judges will score less than candidates who are "acceptable" for everyone? Also, if he really performed the program in the wrong order and wore a funky attire, how can one realistically expect the jury of a major competition to let him through to the next round? Fortunately, Pogorelich made it to the very top, where he deserves to be, meaning that the field of classical music is not exclusively decided by competitions.

The idea that Eugene List or Louis Kentner might be part of a Soviet block of judges is nonsense.

I think another aspect that a lot of people don’t mention is that any musician can agree with the fact that the hardest pieces/performances are the ones that draw out the most emotion in us. Every piece he played in all 3 rounds of that competition were filled with these incredibly heavy, complex emotions Chopín put in his music and he found a way to amplify all of them! I cannot imagine the kind of exhaustion it took for him to execute that. Especially in his performances of Scherzo No. 3, Ballad No. 2 and Polonaise Op. 44. All monstrous and incredibly dark pieces. I think that, as musicians, our job is to bring the music to life and it is up to us to decide how we want to execute that and there is no real standard or limit to how we go about it. We decide how we play our music and we should be able to respect the choices of fellow musicians, even if we don’t agree. That being said, I think what makes Chopín’s music so great is the emotional vitality in his works, and often the incredible counterpoint. Pogorelich indulges in every emotion in such a skillful and articulate way that’s beyond beautiful! Not only does he do this, but he plays with such clarity in his voicing that you’re truly able to appreciate both melodic lines separately and as a whole. It is extremely rare for a pianist to be so technically and musically gifted, but also connected to both himself and the music that it’s fusion is near flawless. I think his performance in the competition was incredibly important in Piano history and I agree with Argerich declaring him a genius. I whole heartedly appreciate more traditional interpretations, however, I find much enjoyment from the indulgence Ivo and other pianists take in their interpretations that often go outside of that traditionalism

@loganrain2790

Жыл бұрын

@@enriquelobos950 Nowhere in that entire comment did I say anything remotely close to that

@loganrain2790

Жыл бұрын

@@enriquelobos950 My comment does not at all match up with the conclusion you’ve drawn. You’re misinterpreting what I wrote.

all world-class competitions, no matter what discipline, are politicized.

I don't think you can question his talent, nor his imagination. I do think though that you can question his sincerity. He divided opinion because some people were spellbound by his talent and imagination, but ignored his sincerity, whereas others were looking for sincerity only to notice a display of talent and imagination. If a listener doesn't think you're being sincere, they usually won't like what you're doing. Half the jury didn't feel he was being sincere.

Sergei Dorensky votes 0 for Pogorelich all the stages

Guys some insiderinfo, I learned from a teacher who studied, traveled and was entored by the head of the Chopin Competition Mrs. Halina Stefanska Czerny and he told me about this event she told him the following: It was a very, very hot late summer day in Warsaw but at the time the dress code for men was, to wear a full suit whatsoever. The fact that Ivo Pogorelich showed up playing just in a shirt, was seen as disrespect, very offensive and entitled. At the time these things were very conservative and maybe hard to understand from our current views but anyhow I hope I could help bring clarity into this case. Cheers and regards, Bella

I heard him play at the Montreal International Music Competition held at the VIncent d'Indy Musical School just a few months before the Chopin Competition. I was electrified by his performance. Someone below said the it's no wonder that his playing may have been unpalatable for such a "buttoned-up" milieu as that of the competition's jury. That precisely is the problem. If your artistic horizons are not sufficiently wide to allow you to discern one of the most original artists in a generation, even if his performance is not exactly your cup of tea, what are you doing on a jury appraising the performance of artists a third your age? I am not impplying that Pogorelić deserved the win the first prize, but I also find it scandalous that such a brilliant and unique artist was not allowed to pass to the final round. After all, he could have won second prize, or even third. I find Pogorelic's explanation about the Soviet Bloc having agreed to award the prize to Dang Thai Son, the North Vietmanese pianist, highly unlikely. There was no chance of political control over a body of jurors largely made up of world-renowned pianists having nothing to do with the Soviet Bloc. Furthermore, many western jurors voted for Dang Thai Son. His win was legit.

Guys it's a Chopin competition....not a make Chopin sound like crazy liszt and Schumann competition

I am an all out Pogorelich fan and will not discuss this, firmly in the faction of those who think he still has it, despite the arthritic hands or whatever, and people _to this day_ don't understand him. Anyone listened to the February 2022 release ? Absolutely stunning ! I actually think a composer would not _want_ anyone to feel totally enslaved to their own intentions. If someone can bring out a beauty in it that they themselves hadn't even thought of, they'd be delighted ! Unless they were Wagner or some control freak or something.

@piotrmalewski8178

Жыл бұрын

A musician is never totally enslaved. Even if notes contain all the information the notation allows, there is always a lot of room. That's why interpretation exists in the first place. As for Pogorelich, love his interpretation or hate it, it's up to individual, just like liking a genre of music. Personally I don't like, because instead of colours of sounds, I hear a man who wants to destroy a piano by hitting it as hard as he possibly can. As for Chopin's competition, like any competition it has specific expectations, plus it was established to promote a specific way of playing Chopin's music, that was established after years of research, after decades of time when people who didn't meet him and didn't know how to play his music, claimed the music was 'bad, sick and miscarried'.

@TheSoteriologist

Жыл бұрын

@@piotrmalewski8178 _"because instead of colours of sounds, I hear a man who wants to destroy a piano by hitting it as hard as he possibly can"_ Clearly you go by bad bootleg videos in YT or otherwise you haven't got an ounce of music in you. I can't even begin to describe what highly concentrated nonsense this is and I exhort anyone who is in danger of taking this drivel seriously to listen to Pogorelich's publications of the last 10 years. No one can deliver pianissimo bombs like Pogorelich. I will admit though that outside of Pogorelich apparently no one is even capable of playing a genuine forte, let alone fortissimo, regardless how explicitly the literature prescribes it. They alway keep it between mezzopiano and mezzoforte, either to save energy, to cover up their lack of control or simply because they physically cannot sustain the tornado that real music would demand where it is written.

@jimkost2002

Жыл бұрын

@@TheSoteriologist on point. He was, is and will ALWAYS be a genius. Tiny, immature minds may never have ears, brains and hearts to hear this!

I am a retired piano teacher with many years experience. Here is my critique . 1. A superb rendering of this difficult prelude . Beethoven I feel would have approved of this rendering immensely . 2. Scale passages including the cascading thirds are as good as you will ever get . No horrendous OVERPEDALING ( My pet hate .) 3. Correct balance between left and right hands . Wonderful , sympathetic without a hint of slushy sentiment in the quiet sections . 4. Tempo ; Perfect throughout . High technical demand. ..... Yet not a hint of exhaustion or fading towards the end . 5. Perfect posture with slightly relaxed elbows . I could go on .... Why , for goodness sake did lvo not win the prize ?

@VianoMusicAcademy

Жыл бұрын

I’m sure he would appreciate the critique 🤣 What exactly does Beethoven have to do with this?

@jackburgess274

Жыл бұрын

To even begin to answer the question with which you end, one would need (a) to listen to the round 2 performances by the other competitors and (b) to hear from the jurists who gave him low marks their substantive accounts of _why_ they did so, neither of which you appear to have done. (By the way, the world is full of "retired piano teachers with many years experience" and most of them are mediocrities. You seem to think that your status as such gives your opinion some weight, but you would be better advised to keep it under your hat.)

this shows what is common practice in Mozarteum

Apparently most of that jury were also 'renown' piano teachers and they weren't about to let a pupil of Aliza Kezeradz win.

This story reminds me of that anime called "Forest of piano"

To me, this music is living. Chopin is Dead, therefore he shouldn't sound like much of anything

Saw him play Liebestraum No. 3 in Barcelona, 1991. Rumor is he's just reached the second cadenza.

In the 1980s and early 1990s, Pogorelich could be astounding. True, he could sometimes just be weird, but he made tremendous recordings of Gaspard and the Prokofiev Sixth, among others. His 1990 Carnegie Hall recital was thrilling; I was there and still remember it. After his wife died in 1996, he stopped performing for quite a while. When he resumed, his playing was a wreck, and it has remained so. Insanely slow speeds with extreme dynamics. Deliberately perverse interpretations. Downright painful to endure.

@stephenmcintyre4544

Жыл бұрын

Yes I agree, extraordinary performances back in the 80s and 90s, and rather sadly embarrassing ones now.

@ritamargherita

Жыл бұрын

I agree, heard him in Berlin some years ago with Chopin 1st, and while there were some achingly beautiful passages, overall the whole performance was closer to a crumbled ruin that anything else. I had bought a ticket for my piano teacher and I felt almost ashamed for wasting her time like this. I do admire his earlier recordings, his Scarlatti is marvellous, but since his teacher died he seems to have lost all the discipline that held his playing together.

Dang thai son deserved first prize though. His playing was better.

@Sahasrarasmi-Sancodite

2 ай бұрын

Dang Son got first prize because the soviet politburo many months prior decided that the viet pianist was going to ein/,get the first prize at the chpin Comp. So that is why the viet pianist won. At that same time, since Pogo and Dang Son bothered at Moscow Conservatory, Pogo was specifically told not to enter the chpin because the soviets wanted his colleague Dang Son to be awarded first prize. and hence Pogo should not enter the Comp. So as not to be embarrassed by the outcome. Pogo chose to defy soviet politburos political decisions and entered Chopin Comp and played all those great memorable Chopin piano works. Despite knowing he had been told he was not going to be allowed to go on to y he finals yo play with orchestra. Pogo knew what the outcome of that Comp was going to be months before the Comp. But he defied conventional wisdom and behavior and did not give in to a higher political power.

@lwa0055

24 күн бұрын

@@Sahasrarasmi-Sancodite even if it was a political aagreement dang thai son deserved to win

This story matches almost perfectly to an anime called "Piano no mori" or "Forest of piano", if anyone has watched it they will know what im talking about lmao

i see a channel encouraging thinking while listening, enemy to an important aspect of music making

I'd argue that there has never been a better performance of this piece. Go figure...

idc, hes a genius

Ah so thats who "Forest of piano" is based on

Bravo Arthur Horovitz ! I get your point entirely .

The Chopin competition is a scam. Chopin would have hated it.

@alainspiteri502

10 ай бұрын

j think really to day the young are too meticulous in Key-board-technic because they don't understand real sens what they play ; erea 2002 - 5 j have listened 30 lauréats international competition , j don't agree with theirs musics ; Samson François with the first Marguerite Long competition his an exception, mainly are all unknown to day ; false videos is better on Y T ( Paul Barton the Top ! ) with his elephants , the youtuber is 100-100 in ignorance about piano, only pianists known this

In my opinion, “competition” in Art in itself is self-contradictory. Yes, playing music needs stamina and strength, but after all, it is not sport, which has an objective standard. Every judge has their own taste and standards, which are subjective. That is why there are different opinions in the jury group I think. I guess in some others fields, unification is necessary probably. But in art , unification can be useless or even dangerous in my opinion. Playing with clarity could be a kind of beauty or a kind of ugliness, the same goes to playing with obscurity. This also goes to playing with different tempo, rhythm, timbre and so on. Another example, rules has two functions in my opinion, they are made to be followed and to be broken. Judging music with some sort of called “reasonable standards” it is sad in my opinion. I could be wrong and I would like to learn. Thank you very much!

And let's not forget Sultanov