Oh, how you'll love the next big arc. You'll absolutely adore El Dorado.

@TH_Sofa

24 күн бұрын

With Malice mentioned 5 times in the video I am so spiraling to think if he hasn't read it yet

@PeyTalksAnime

24 күн бұрын

@@TH_Sofa I haven't read any frieren manga yet, just building off the 1st season. No spoilers!! haha

@rain5013

24 күн бұрын

El dorado boutta be fire for sureee

@RLeviy

24 күн бұрын

if that Arc will be a 2,5 hour movie with title "Frieren : The Mage of Flower againt Everlasting Gold" i'll be in the theatre 6 hour before it premiere

@Ambfailsafe

24 күн бұрын

I tend to think of El Dorado to be like a curious cat trying to understand its prey. But I can’t wait for Pey’s perspective 😆

The reason I love demons in Frieren is because the author explicitly made Demons as close to human as possible. I think that the minute differences made between humans and demons help speak to what it means to be human and why I think the overall thesis of Frieren is about learning to be human. The contrasts the author puts against humans is so loud when you think about how close they are to actually being human. Frieren isn't about the long lives or mortality that makes someone human. Its about connection and someone who lives on the border of human and demon.

@neutronshiva2498

16 күн бұрын

WUT? Demons in Frieren if you look carefully arent "made" to be as close to human as possible. The old demons, from prievious generation most seem to be monstrous like Qual. They were ugly and inhuman and were eventually phased outta existence. From what I can tell it's only the last generation of demons that resembles humans and are very cute and sexy basically as means to gain upper hand. All the huge ugly monsters like Qual are gone. They were ineffective. So demons evolved to be cute instead. They werent always like that.

@Soloong_Gaybowzer

9 күн бұрын

IDK the demons seemed irredeemable to me. As explained in the show, demons are humanoid monsters who can speak. And all monsters are biologically bound to universal psychopathy. Think of Ted Bundy, but as a whole branch of the animal kingdom. That's pretty far away from the baseline from your average human.

Look there’s like 3 ways that I think I commonly see in fiction 1. Evil, they’re the enemies of the main characters usually sadistic and mentally fucked so viewers would never agree with them 2. They’re hot as fuck 3. The word “demon” is used for what is essentially another race of people in a multi-race fantasy world

@kuronya3582

23 күн бұрын

Demons in frieren is monster specie, not a human race like dwarf or elf

@thatboyakira4202

20 күн бұрын

Somehow the three can be applicable at the same time.

@jebes909090

18 күн бұрын

the reason ALL humanoid demons in frieren are attractive is because it helps them deceive humans. thats it. its another camouflage

@viniciusmelquiades

17 күн бұрын

I think they're doing 3 with Tsukimichi. There is a race of demons, but they actually seem to be a group of other races that previously inhabited the world and were displaced when the goodness arrived with her humans. So the war they wage against humans is mostly just them taking back their lands. I would need to read the novels to fully understand that, but I really don't want to, so the spoilers I got will have to suffice for now.

@fluxtheory3136

10 күн бұрын

It's because Japan does not have christian heritage. From their perspective a demon is not the personification of evil, but a humanoid with non-human features such as wings, tails or horns. Effectively a demi-human.

There's a manga arc which follows very briefly after the end of the anime material which involves the Demon Macht. It's really an opportunity for Kanehito Yamada to go further in depth with the nature of demons, as the arc is primarily about Macht spending years sincerely attempting to understand humanity through pointed conversations and observation while walking among them pretending to have been made harmless by magic. It really conveys how alien the mindset the demon's is to a human - and vice versa - while displaying the interiority of a demon who isn't actively seeking power or conquest.

@nice2173

24 күн бұрын

It's my favourite arc . I especially liked how they executed the ending.

@Wolfy-pw2py

24 күн бұрын

Yes its interesting because they are a demons and human laws and emotions or what we call the norm does not apply to them. Its one of my favourite arc and it also shows that demons like Macht who pursue understanding with humans are the most dangerous.

@Re_V

24 күн бұрын

bro just casually spoiled things that are only learned at the later parts of the arc 🤣

@harperl2

24 күн бұрын

​@@Re_V😅 they're really just pulling All this out. Hope the guy didn't see this. Thankfully I saw them talking about and stopped before I read on. I know I only and I wish to stay that way

@Wolfy-pw2py

24 күн бұрын

@@Re_V as a person that already knows the arc i consider this a minor spoiler. Its not going to affect your experience in my opinion

As a Japanese person I wanted to give insight to Mushoku Tensei title. The actual full title in Japanese is ” Mushoku Tensei: I will seriously try in another world”. I feel like this title is important because it essentially says the entire theme of the story in the title. “TRY” is the big factor that this story always emphasizes. I believe Mushoku is interested in asking the question "Do you or will you regret it? Than try your best to do something about it." Rudeus regrets not taking action in his previous life but never regrets being a horn dog. That is why Rudeus in this life still has the same tendency but tries his absolute hardest to learn magic. But I also don't think MT is saying "Just trying will get you results" as there is many time characters who tries their absolute hardest fails. But what that action give is closure. You may have not gotten the result you wanted but at least you tried... I believe that is what MT is trying to convey.

@akaneriyun4774

24 күн бұрын

I agree. A lot of people say MT is about a second chance. A second chance... at what? Well, it's about a second chance at simply living. Part of living is making mistakes - thousands of them. Part of it is also about being inconsistent, hypocritical, being an asshole - all the ugly things we have all done and experienced and try to push to the back of our minds. MT isn't a diluted story that tells us of a scumbag becoming a paragon. It's a story of a scumbag given another chance to LIVE, make mistakes, make himself and others happy, love, be hurt, hurt others - all of that and more.

@SuperiorPosterior

24 күн бұрын

@@akaneriyun4774 Exactly that, and that's why I love it. Rudy does get punished for being a horndog, but it shows just how human he is that he only really learns on a case by case basis. He pervs on Lilia and Roxy until Lilia tells him to stop. He accidentally undresses Sylphy thinking that she was a boy, and doesn't perv on her afterwards to anywhere near the same extent he did Lilia and Roxy. He pervs on Eris until she beats the crap out of him, and is then on his best behaviour across the entire Demon Continent. Rudy reprimands Aisha when she offers a "reward" to him, saying kids shouldn't say things like that (hypocritical, sure, but also good and responsible). And then he and Eris sleep together, after which her letter utterly destroys him to the point that when he meets Sara, he just *_can't_* perv on her. He's just too damn depressed to even try. When he and Sylphy get married, it isn't the aphrodisiac or even the _act_ that cures him, it's the knowledge that someone loves him for who he is, ugly faults and terrible mistakes all. And while he broke his promise, it was a promise that Sylphiette never planned on holding against him, so long as he didn't go to a _brothel._ In other words, expanding the family's all good, just not playing around. And that is all just a single facet of the character that is Rudy. There's his relationships with his parents, both Japanese and Greyrat. There's how he interacts with the world, and is naive to common sense even after almost two decades of life, simply because he's never run into such a "common sense" situation before. Polygamy is met with shrugs by most of the world, with only those of the Milis faith considering it to be horrible. There's just so much to love in the world MT builds that disliking it because you can't compartmentalize its story as "it's a redemption" just feels... I dunno. In bad faith, or immature.

@RedCornix

24 күн бұрын

This is a better read of the show than I think most of its fans give. I think this also shows a "problem" the video maker has in engaging with media. A point was made in the video is that media should treat evil with seriousness proportionate to the evil. If you do not hold that opinion, then your experience with media is going to be different. Especially if you add in the extra effort of listening for dog whistles. I do neither of those things most of the time, but the fans of MS may have that issue because some of them cannot grapple with Rudy being a pedo (mostly in the beginning, i hear he grows out of it which also seems to be the point.) My issue is that despite solid writing And characterization it falls into the trap of making rudy inconsistent.

@DavidGarcia-kw4sf

24 күн бұрын

@@SuperiorPosterior I'm currently watching MT and I think it's fair to say that Rudy does show character growth throughout the story. He's far from perfect as a person, but he recognizes the need to change and grow. He knows that he was responsible for most of his own suffering in his prior life and he learns from that.

@ErenKruger-qx3dt

24 күн бұрын

@@SuperiorPosterior MT is also about Rudeus excusing a groomer that pedo his own child

Something to say as I am half way through the video and you mentioned this twice. Demons DO NOT need to eat humans to live. This is specifically stated. And yet they do. I feel like this is heavily important in a discussion on weather these demons are evil and what evil is.

@daviddap71

Күн бұрын

We don't need to eat meat to live. Lions don't need to eat humans to live yet I would not get very close to one. The point is in Frieren demons are more like animals/monsters. Humans happen to be their preferred morsel.

@RushWheeler

20 сағат бұрын

It's more like they were just monsters who evolved specifically to be able to hunt humans and humanoid creatures, hence their ability to study, copy and use magic to appear more similar to elves, make use of a longer lifespan to trick dwarves and lie about emotion in order to get closer to humans.

I didn't expect this series to get better and expand to comparing other shows artfully, but again you continue to impress with having more meaningful things to share about the show we all enjoyed.

@TyBe-uo4ud

24 күн бұрын

oh u will be completely proven wrong in future seasons :D, the demons are heavily expanded on.

@gethina-come7885

24 күн бұрын

Next arc would be even fire than the season 1 arc. Spoiler : Edel 😳

And there is a whole arc that will likely be shown in season 2 that explores this beautifully

Humans: What drives you to such cruelty and wickedness? Demons: lmao get fucked idk what that is

This is very interesting to me, because I had the complete opposite reaction of that the demons were finally just evil, they weren’t humans that just had horns and acted bad with strong powers or something. They were actually different and evil. There is no peace treaty to bargain with. I feel like in other media, demons are just what I explained earlier. Different humans. Bad people that just need to be understood to be able to have peace with. I’m not saying I hate that, I’m just tired of seeing it so much and Frieren demons were such a breath of fresh air for me.

@rantingrodent416

21 күн бұрын

They aren't evil, though. They are wild beasts. Polar bears will kill and eat any human they can get their hands on. They can't be trained or made safe to be around, but they aren't evil. Frieren's demons are the same.

@georgekatkus5162

21 күн бұрын

Evolved demons no less. To be evil, but to primarily use manipulation instead of pure power, is more aligned with the past depictions of demons or what we see in the Bible. It really is fresh to just see evil being evil, not misunderstood or something. Just wholly evil by nature, and in a way that can't be broken

@kyuriht

21 күн бұрын

Yea demons in frieren are naturally evil but still sentient and real. And I love that. It felt so fresh and "new" You could almost compare them to psychopaths (as in you cant really understand them and Just see them as evil)

@Aizelav

21 күн бұрын

@@kyuriht yeah, exactly!

@rantingrodent416

21 күн бұрын

@@Aizelav I think you both missed the point. Frieren calls it out very specificly. They are wild beasts. They are dangerous and violent, but they aren't evil any more than a polar bear is.

Frieren herself has similar traits to the demons. She toys with them, deceives them... But it looks like these traits were taught to her by Flamme. And as she could be full of hatred to them she is pretty calm when dealing with them. She does not look like she is enjoying it though, it looks like work to her, something that needs to be done. She does get the satisfaction of work well done at the end though..

@vietdinh3685

21 күн бұрын

This is exactly what a demon later told Frieren. Telling if her could kill another human-looking creature in cold blood then maybe she isn't much different than them.

@usonohoshi6165

20 күн бұрын

It is taught to her. Base on Flamme's explanation. Elves aren't the type to run away from conflict, even if it's a tactical retreat.They face their problems,head on, even if it means their deaths. And demons took advantage of this. On top of the Demon attacks- as they see them as their biggest threat, AND Elves rarely reproducing,(because they saw it as pointless due to their long lifespan) the elf race is now nearly extinct. Even NOW they don't seem to prioritize repopulation. Base on the three elves we have met so far.

@Axterix13

4 күн бұрын

It goes beyond her reaction to demons, though. Anytime humans want to do something dumb, she pretty much lets them. She might briefly say, "This is dumb", but if they're like "We want to try this", she steps aside and lets it play out. Like a demon, she doesn't seem to hold much value to their lives. This is probably in part because humans aren't friends. They're strangers, except those few acquaintances she took a brief 10 year journey with.

@impulseelectrobrine1259

16 сағат бұрын

@@Axterix13not to mention a lot of them are actually trying to kill her now

6:15 Pey: *says demons are only acting on self preservation* Also Pay: *shows a scene where a demon attacks someone for no other reason than because they can and gets themself killed for having done so* From an evolutionary behavior standpoint, demons living in caves benefited from attacking humans, but the moment they emerged humans were no longer reliable prey, there were infinitely better options. Especially now that they looked humanoid, they could use their body shape as a form of mimicry to hunt species who had become friends with humans, or simply pretend to be human and blend in, but instead they attack the species they would have gained most from becoming symbiotic with, which they wouldn't even have to try very hard to do. Neither the show or manga offer a reason demons need to eat specifically humans aside from nutrients and availability during early evolution, adventurers wandering into dark caves, so even prior to attaining sapience they should have already switched food sources, unless there's some factor we've missed.

@cryodemmorphx1324

21 күн бұрын

You'd have to also factor in fantastical elements with a huge leap of imagination to make sense of the evolution of demons in the world of Frieren. The demons evolved to feed on humans because humans are the best sources of mana. Unlike humans, mana is the demon's literal life force that needs replenishment from an outside source. They're literally made of mana that needs constant input of external mana sources to maintain their form. How do we know this? Unlike humans, when demons die they completely disintegrate into thin air. While that is as good as a headcannon, it's still logically sound in a world where mana is an essential element of existence.

@franckymagines

20 күн бұрын

I love your comment, but I mostly wanted to tell you how much I appreciate you using SAPIENCE correctly instead of throwing the overused (and 99.99% of the time, wrongly) word "sentience" when actually speaking of "sapience" lmao. Ik my reply might seem random, but I'm so tired of seeing people on Internet (even authors, gosh...) use "sentience" instead of "sapience" (obviously when indeed speaking of "sapience"). Heck, even in my own WIP universe, I use the word a lot and my advisors/friends early on would ask me if I meant "sentience" 🗿🗿

@montypython5521

19 күн бұрын

" unless there's some factor we've missed" It's that the demons are evil.

@roddyaxolotl8519

19 күн бұрын

I mean, one problem with that is no species really is just friends with humans (unless you mean other humanoids but, same issue). Wild animals almost invariably fear humans when humans move into the area with very few exceptions - and honeyguides aren’t good eating, really - and domestic animals are often just as heinous to try to attack as a human is because of how human pack-bonding works. I’ll admit I haven’t watched the series, but it could be a specialization thing. Targeting humans at this point might be more instinctual than strictly necessary, and I have my doubts they’d be able to ally with humans after the long history of eating them - even if only in caves beforehand. It’d be like a fox trying to befriend chickens and mice, they’re simply not built to innately recognize them as more than prey. Hell, even humans have some issues with this kind of thing, though mostly culturally learned rather than properly instinctual, and usually relegated to speech rather than to action - I think we’ve all at least heard of someone joking about eating chicken when someone mentions having a pet chicken after all, haven’t we?

@Monitice

19 күн бұрын

@@franckymagines that shit still puzzles me to this day. what is the difference between sapience and sentience.

arguably, the demons can represent nature *itself*. you can see the hero party as analogous to the advancement in technology, human knowledge and the collective wisdom of society, like in frieren being a thousand years old, representative of the culmination of knowledge, and the defeat of the demon lord being the ultimate triumph of society against nature.

@DreamersOfReality

24 күн бұрын

Simply hubris. We think today that we've won against nature, and that is not going to end well for ourselves. It's already looking quite dire.

I see demons in Frieren as a metaphor for psychopaths. Like psychopaths, demons lack of empathy and guilt, and use the language for the purpose of lying and manipulating humans. So to consider if demons are evil, we should ask ourselves if we consider psychopaths as evil.

@savvivixen8490

24 күн бұрын

I shared the same conclusion about the parallels to psychopathy (ASPD). For a long time, I was unsure how to feel about the demons, and felt the same way "early" Frieren did (during her first heroes journey): wary observation. Once we reached the climax of that flashback arc (and later, the climax of the demon war), some things clicked for me: •These demons ARE psychopaths, but psychopaths are not demons, because •IRL people with ASPD have various motives that don't hinge on preying on other people to meet their goals. (Not saying some don't or won't prey on humans as A main directive or stepping stone, just that it's not always the core of their drive for each one.) •Those demons were inherently dangerous BECAUSE of their subsistence of preying on humans/humanoids, and Frieren clearly understands this (which is why she has no qualms about exterminating them all on sight). There is no bargaining, there is no alternative, there is no understanding possible to grow. The demons only see other creatures as food sources, and they are not the type to argue with their food without it resulting in their full belly in the end. •Those demons are in fact, not evil, but very animalistic in their drive for sustenance and self-preservation, to the point that demons with casually sell out their own kin if the pros outweigh enough of the cons. It's not so much a choice as a business transaction. •As a result, this gave me a fresh perspective on both the fantasy and the irl dynamics on how these types operate (simplified as it may be). I still don't know how I feel about them, but at least I have a clearer picture about what to expect.

@zetsubou1v1

23 күн бұрын

I would say they are evil in the sense that coexistence is not an option, why they are considered monsters and not a people. It's not shown at least thus far that demons can co exist long enough to build a web of logic that makes up for a lack of empathy, as i assume most high functioning psychopaths acquire. Even animals have a mix of logic and empathy. It's highly unlikely that they could learn the language and not puzzle out meaning from it over thousands of years. They just don't because they dont need to: because their pursuit of unbridled power and crushing everything with it hasn't been shown to fail enough to matter. I liken it to the "the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference" that people will often quote. That's obviously dumb: if you put the two on a straight line, they are clear opposites. What people actually see is an exaggerated U, with love and hate being roughly equidistant or close in terms of passion and reasoning, and indifference being the farthest thing from either. It's fitting that in a polarized world, such a saying has gained traction.

@awesomeswifter1138

23 күн бұрын

that would be to acknowledge demons as a human being though at Psychopathy is a disorder in demons, the idea that they are nature, an evolved wild animal that only mimics humans to get a meal or such fits better than saying they simply hold no empathy, you dont say lions are psychopaths for eatings a gazelle

@Mahfy1

23 күн бұрын

i see a demon as an animal in frieren they have hairacy system, they know how to live around human, and they neither bad or good for human. but the way they fix a problem is very different with human basically if human doesnt have "humanity" in them

@davidarvingumazon5024

22 күн бұрын

**Makima intensifies**

Just a note about Mushoku. The redemption thing has always been a weird obsesion with people, they want to see characters redeemed. But MT has never beed about that, it's just about living, about stepping outside and dealing with life. And there's also a weird thing specially with american audiences that I'll never understand and it's that they look for teaching in adult media. Media aimed at adults is the only place where reality can and should be showcased; bad people win, the rich get richer and not everyone learns their lessons.

@tomykong2915

20 күн бұрын

Mushoku is about redemption, just a different concept of redemption than some people have in their minds. For me, redemption means to seek to be better, without a tangible, beneficial motive, it's self improvement for the sake of it, not because doing the right thing will help you avoid being punished, and that's exactly what Mushoku is about, it's about Rudeus trying to be better, regardless of how much the world around him doesn't think he needs it. MT's redemption isn't entirely about moral redemption either, that's just part of it, beyond that, just doing *something* with yourself is a kind of redemption for someone who took advantage of his situation to avoid that before, he's improved immensely, even when, at times, it would have benefited him to just not in his new life

@JoshX9706

17 күн бұрын

A line from the end of volume 26 sums it up nicely "I just lived the best life I could--so that if I died the next day, I'd have no regrets. That's what's important

@Goudlock

5 күн бұрын

@@tomykong2915 I agree, and i love that people (mostly hater) keeps saying that his bad action get rewarded in s2.. They tend to forget the first part of s2. They tend to forget that, ""doing it""" with Roxy is not being "rewarded", since Sylphie already stated before that she was fine with it (and in the LN she was mostly forced to accept since Elinalise lied)... And since the anime didn't really get a true focus on, it tainted his new relationship with Norn again.

@poppypollen4362

3 күн бұрын

If it's not about redemption than it's a story of a p*do scum getting a fresh start and everything he wanted in life. Yay, just what everyone likes to watch, right? An utterly detestable person doing well. As if. It's not about teaching a lesson, it's about making the story palatable to the audience. No normal person would sympathize with Rudi unless he was on a quest of bettering himself. People want to see a**holes overthrown, 'cause they want catharsis. A story should have moral and emotional resolution to make sense to people. The concept is here since ancient Greek theater for a reason. Tho I should point out that it's not a specifically Western concept, you can see the same pattern in Eastern classics just as well. I mean, I know there are misery porn lovers out there, but don't line most people in the same league with those weirdos, please. Sane people don't entertain themselves with graphic depictions of evil, painful and unfair, unless there's a positive twist to the story.

@hellblaze10

8 сағат бұрын

@@Goudlock They kept most of those justification bits out because its more interesting story plus cause it would make Norn look just judgmental rather than justifiably angry at the situation. Also Rudy is being rewarded since there is no real consequences for his actions.

I also love when demons aren't evil. It means the mana we can harvest from them by putting them into machine that torture them 24/7 isn't tainted by the negative plane, and can easily be refined into any kind of mana. Think of the economagical possibilities !

@CaedmonOS

23 күн бұрын

The demons aren't evil.... You are

@chasethemaster3440

23 күн бұрын

Bro what!?

@jaideepshekhar4621

20 күн бұрын

LMAO! 😂

@Karthull

16 күн бұрын

But the demons are evil, almost as evil as you

@randomuserame

5 күн бұрын

Found the Magi-capitalist

3:58 ok but this is amazing from a psychological perspective - essentially it's how psychopaths learn to mimic empathy, responses are picked based on their perceived benefit

What the demons are and how they think is a major subject in the manga in later chapters. In effect demons are a species that cannot feel any sort of empathy to anyone or anything. Not even others of their kind. The best comparison that can be made is that they are intelligent sharks (the series actually makes this comparison). sm

Alot of seemingly shallow critiques of Lolita make alot more sense when you look at the author's other works and see that sexualising minors is a running theme

It's hard to see the demons as acting strictly to preserve or reproduce when we have characters like Lugner and Aura that clearly derive some satisfaction from inflicting pain. Lugner wanted to get revenge for a surprise attack. Nature is never so reactive and malicious.

@lafeechloe6998

24 күн бұрын

Did you ever saw a cat ? Real question

@kyaksachan502

24 күн бұрын

You do no know about, Orcas, Dolphines, Otters... those fuckers be evil af

@animeproblem1070

24 күн бұрын

Ravens destroy your entire argument a flock of Ravens can and will hold a grudge against an individual human

@kitsunekage12

23 күн бұрын

@@animeproblem1070 Octopus, too, have been known to hold grudges against certain keepers at aquariums and spray them or act up around them specifically.

@chasethemaster3440

23 күн бұрын

Mate humans are animals and other animals hurt stuff for fun too like dolphins and other stuff not sure how you didn’t know this common sense but whatever

I think you make a good argument, but I also think there are some scenes that undercut what you're saying. If you look at Lugner versus Fern, you see that while the outcomes of the two ambushes are similar, Fern was trying to kill Lugner and missed while Lugner had the same opportunity and, if I'm remembering the scene correctly, intentionally went for the option that caused Fern more pain. That, I would argue, is not the behavior of a predator trying to take out a threat. That is the behavior of someone who is being cruel because he wants to. That is what I think most people would argue is an evil act. It's not the only one, either. In some its more subtle, but still there. This one just happens to be the most blatant example that I remember. I'll agree that the demons are excellently done in Frieren, but I don't think they represent nature in the same way you are talking about. Then again, I do believe that there is such a thing as an objective evil and an objective good, and from that viewpoint you can say that a good person opposing great evil is a person versus nature story. The nature in question just happens to be human nature. Just my two cents while I should really be asleep. 😛

@akaneriyun4774

24 күн бұрын

Do demons really have to be benign and NOT evil to represent nature? It could just be in their nature to be sadistic. Evil also lies in nature, you know.

@seraphywang4638

23 күн бұрын

I disagree. For one, humankind always has some people who choose the path of more pain but it would be stupid to call all of humankind evil when it’s only a minority. Secondly, animals and plants, despite being seen as natural and neutral, have very sadistic ways of surviving. A venus fly trap for example does not need to evolve methods of melt the body of an insect to feed off the liquid version of its body but it does. A orca does not need to slap a manta ray ten feet into the air to kill it but it tenderizes the meat. Despite the instincts driving most animals, most animals still know what “fun” is and how to partake in it and every action we mostly judge them on is based on anthropomorphism on their behavior since we use relative judgement to judge what we consider “right” or “wrong” when it’s all neutral. Is a Kangaroo evil for leaving their child to die? For us, yes, because humans view life as generally precious. For the Kangaroo, it means living another year and just making another baby to replace them. Is an any colony evil for enslaving other ants they’ve raided? There’s a lot of scenarios when put into human morally seemed messed up but is the natural order for these animals.

@tomykong2915

20 күн бұрын

Cats, that's the only thing you really gotta say to dispute this, cats toy with their prey, pretty consistently. Stimulation is also a need for species with brains

@thedabblingwarlock

20 күн бұрын

@@tomykong2915 If I recall correctly, the reason cats, at least housecats "play" with their prey has more to do with disabling it and preventing it from harming the cat than anything like malice or a need to play. Granted, intelligent animals often do engage in play, but that's not what's happening with cats whenever they bat around a mouse from what I understand.

@thedabblingwarlock

20 күн бұрын

@@seraphywang4638 Actually, Venus fly traps and other carnivorous plants pretty much had to do just that in order to survive in their native environments. The insects provide nutrients that the plants need. They're plants, so they don't produce the energy needed to use quicker forms of killing the insects. Basically, trapping and digesting the insect while it's alive really is the only way for carnivorous plants to do that because they're reliant on what the structures and mechanisms that evolved in plants, and that doesn't include fast acting muscles. As for orcas, it still kills the manta ray quickly, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were other reasons for them to do it that way, like avoiding injury like you see with cats. Ants are not that intelligent, and as far as I'm aware there's really only one species of ant that would do something like this, and it only works because the colonies outside of South America, which is where those ants come from, haven't really diverged from each other enough for them to see those colonies as different colonies. If I remember right, that same species of ants does fight itself in its native habitat because the colonies are different enough for them to see each other as threats. But as for as ants in general go? What we're seeing with them is a lot like what we see in video games or with AI. There's a set of relatively simple behaviors and instincts (or routines and conditions in the case of the computer stuff) that results in emergent behaviors that appear to be intelligent at first glance. It's not, but to most people it appears that way. I can't really argue with you about applying human values and ethics to the actions of other animals, but then again, I'm not trying to. I am arguing that the demons are not as gray or neutral as Pey says they are. While the mindset of demons does have some very alien elements to it, I'd argue that they are still very much human in some significant ways, and not just because of their appearance. One of the comments mentions that evil occurs in nature, and I think the issue with that is that, by and large, most animal's brains do not work like ours. For demons, it's clear that they don't either, not exactly, but I'll get back to that in a moment. The question I have is what makes someone sadistic? You have to derive pleasure from the pain and humiliation that you cause. It's right there in the definition. So now we have to ask what is the intent? Why does an animal do something? As far as I'm aware, humans are really the only things that have the capacity to be sadistic, to know that we are causing pain and take pleasure from that. Even our closest cousins, the other great apes, don't show behaviors like that, again as far as I'm aware. So what does that mean for demons? I've already mentioned Lugner and how he started his fight with Fern, but Lugner's hardly the only demon to show something that I would call sadism. Aura shows a smug satisfaction when she thinks she has Frieren beaten, and instead of trying to kill her quickly, she draws it out. I doubt it would have mattered in the end, but it does show what I would call a desire to relish in her superiority over Frieren. We see something similar with Draht when he tries to take Frieren's head and again with Linie where she draws the fight out with Stark. And I think that it's significant that the four demons with the most screentime so far do show those tendencies towards sadism. Most of Qual's screentime was spent on the fight against Frieren and Fern. There wasn't a lot of time for characterization in that, and to be honest, he really didn't stick in my mind that well. It's the same for the demons we see when Frieren remembers how she met Flamme and became her apprentice. They just weren't around long enough to do more than spout off about how the Demon King has decreed the elves need to be slaughtered (and the biggest question here is why,) and establish that demons tend to be arrogant when they think they have the upper hand. The demon girl in the flashback when Frieren is explaining demon nature to Fern and Stark is really the one demon we see that has a good amount of screentime that we don't see behaving in a way that suggests she enjoys the pain she has caused. To me, it stands out because of that. This and the scene with Lugner and Linie when she asks what a father is do an excellent job of showing that there are things that are completely alien to how demons think. Don't get me wrong. I think the demons in Frieren are interesting and well written. I'm also not so arrogant as to say that I could very well be wrong. I am willing to admit that I don't know everything either. That said, I don't think the demons in Frieren are as gray as everyone wants to believe. And if it turns out that cats and orcas really are sadists, well, it'd hardly be the first time I was wrong about something.

i am so sorry man, i really like your channel, your style of speech and your insights about deeper meanings in anime BUT i can't watch your videos anymore because i HAVE TO FORGET as much frieren as i can so that in a few months i'll be enjoying it more when i rewatch the show. Keep up the great work

@logikx1325

24 күн бұрын

I rewatch Frieren every month (1 ep a day) and have the entire time since it ended. I still enjoy it every watch through, and still am noticing new subtle details and most of all, have really come to love the subtle references in the 2 ED MVs.

@KennethArriola

24 күн бұрын

Lol, I watched Frieren 3x in a row, and enjoyed it more after each rewatch.

@C-Farsene_5

24 күн бұрын

had me in the first half ngl

@GamerLudwig

22 күн бұрын

Have fun with the rewatch

This video is a prime example of Overthinking. When you overthink about the term evil itself the whole picture gets convoluted as a result.

@DreamersOfReality

24 күн бұрын

And if you don't think about it at all, you fall into depravity yourself. Perpetrating heinous things and yet believing yourself to be among the righteous.

@chelovekcyka4783

23 күн бұрын

@@DreamersOfReality Not thinking at all is stupid.

I think as well, that a lot of whether demons could be considered 'Evil' in Frieren comes down to the difference between Amorality and Immorality. I'd argue that the Demons are inherently Amoral - morality has no influence on their actions towards humans, just as a Wolf's actions towards deer is not influenced by morality. For both Demons and Wolves, it is their nature to prey upon them.

loving the frieren series. i also like mushoku tensei. i don't think the path to redemption is linear. i don't think rewarding the protag through the forgiveness of other characters undermines the story. i also don't think condemning every negative trait is interesting because applying modern society sensibilities to a fantasy setting is just a pretty backdrop to preach to the audience about how to feel. i enjoy mushoku tensei because the world building, interactions, and nature of the characters put us at odds with the cast sometimes. i don't think frieren covers any of the same ground in that regard so those feelings aren't mutually exclusive. they're both top tier in my book but for completely different reasons.

@PeyTalksAnime

24 күн бұрын

hmm, I think that's an interesting perspective. thanks for sharing

@logikx1325

24 күн бұрын

I agree with you entirely, though I also can see where Pey was lost by the story. In my circle of friends, there are 2 of us who love Mushoku Tensei (though I prefer the LNs to the anime) and 3 of us who couldn't stand Rudy enough that they dropped it. I am a fantasy fanatic, and at this point in my life I prefer complex world building and complex characters. I have Mushoku Tensei, Frieren, Re Zero, Reign of the Seven Spellblades and Ascendence of a Bookworm, not wth my manga and other LNs, but with my Western Fantasy Series (Brandon Sanderson, Robert Jordan, Tolkein, Terry Brooks, Jim Butcher). This is because, within their scopes, their worldbuilding is more akin to the epic fantasy series I grew up on rather than the generic isekai/fantasy LNs I went through a phase of reading.

@jaideepshekhar4621

20 күн бұрын

Rudeus's story is not a generic isekai protagonist becomes an angel. Its a more realistic story about what would happen if one of the lowest scum were given another chance. Redemption, improvement are possible, since they know what happened in previous life and would want to avoid/change it. But nowhere near guaranteed. So are relapses and contradictions. Just like real life. To expect the story to condemn him is like expecting fate to condemn evil doers irl. Not gonna happen. Stop viewing media through the lens of your personal morality or expectations.

@tomykong2915

20 күн бұрын

@@logikx1325 did those 3 ever give the manga or LN a shot? at least the manga I find does a better job with the framing of the issues than the anime. Beyond that, just to avoid posting multiple replies without reason, I'll reply to OP here too: jobless as a story does condemn the actions of Rudeus though, he himself does too, the world around him doesn't, and the story does a lot of what it's aiming to do by assuming you already understand that what he's doing is wrong, and then leveraging that understanding as it goes. It isn't a story about how these things are wrong, and it doesn't need to go out of its way to portray these things as wrong, it just needs to not portray these things as fine and lighthearted comedy, those aren't the same thing, and the anime often does portray rudeus's issues as a lot more lighthearted than they really are

I disagree with your premise that a story must accord with my morals to be worthwhile or enjoyable. (how many stories are about a _true king reclaiming the throne,_ completely counter to my idea of a just society?) I _do_ think that if a story is going to give me the icks, it needs to earn it somehow. Maybe by leveraging the ick, maybe by telling a story that wouldn't otherwise be possible, or maybe by being just too damn good to dismiss, even if it has something I don't like. Very much like how if a story does something to strain my suspension of disbelief, the story needs to be doing something that makes the stretch worth it (see eg mr btongue on magic and "why put a wizard in it?").

@upg5147

24 күн бұрын

I'm a firm believer in no story (except that specifically for children), has any moral obligation to be "right". If the the storytelling is gripping, what more do I need?

@jaideepshekhar4621

20 күн бұрын

Agreed. We are adults. We don't need to be taught morality in fiction.

@Gerolanfalan

5 күн бұрын

​@@jaideepshekhar4621fiction enforced beliefs and inadvertently os a reflection of the values the author holds close to their heart. There's so many microdifferences between American and Japanese media in terms of morality and beliefs. It inevitably leads to a culture clash.

@mr.dirtydan3338

4 күн бұрын

There are levels to it. I hate watching or reading anything that makes emperor's the good, romantic guy. It goes so far against the actually reality and my morals compass that I don't like reading it.

@mr.dirtydan3338

4 күн бұрын

​@@upg5147well it depends on how the story itself presents such morals. I can easily watch or read something that has awful shit going on that goes against everything I believe. But if a story tries to justify those things within the narrative, then I no longer want to participate in it.

7:40 we also need to remember that Frieren give demons chances to redeem themselves over and over again but every time they refuse

@gamongames

24 күн бұрын

what would happen if you gave a lion several chances to "redeem" themselves by choosing not to kill and eat prey? they'd probably "refuse" as well. are humans irredeemable as long as they keep killing and eating other animals? even as these animals plead for their lives and suffering with all the communication skills they have?

@kitsunekage12

23 күн бұрын

@@gamongames precisely that, yeah. I was just coming to say that it was less that the demons *chose* not to be redeemed so much as they simply didn't understand what there was to redeem, or even the concept of redemption itself.

@HoaTruong-km9rk

23 күн бұрын

​@@gamongamesdemon doesn't necessary need to eat human to survive. Human is just part of their natural prey, they can live well off without ever consume human. But eat human is part of their nature

@BBBS-ne5te

23 күн бұрын

​@@HoaTruong-km9rkumans to stop eating animal, and live in other food sources

@HoaTruong-km9rk

23 күн бұрын

@@BBBS-ne5te what ?

Something I noticed when watching Frieren is how the way they use language is strikingly similar to how certain things use it in real life. I say "things" because they aren't people, but rather "AI", or more accurately Language Models. Modern text-based generative AIs like Chat-GPT often get criticized for giving false information, "hallucinating", or "lying", but the truth is that they don't actually understand what they're saying any more than the demons in Frieren do. They simply say the words that they believe they're expected to say, because that's the behavior that was rewarded during training. It's a different sort of self-preservation, but could still in a sense be boiled to a similar idea.

I wouldn't say the moral of the story in S2 were that his "bad actions" were rewarded. The message portrayed was Rudeus' relationship and judgement of his father that kept the two alienated from one another. Culminating in Rudeus' father sacrificing himself to save his son and Rudeus' realizing that he's not better of a man than his father. Which broke the disgust Rudeus had about his father's adultery. Even if it was post mortem.

I can't wait until they animate the golden land/El dorado arc with Macht... you're gonna love it. Great video as always i love your frieren series and overall your analyzations of animes

I don't usually comment but I didn't think that I'd find someone else thought the same with Mushoku Tensei I was expecting a redemption story, a flawed character learning to better ones self (as the original name sorta implies, "I'll really try in another world") But was left feeling disappointed in the end when that isn't the main focus. I'll still think it's good but I yearn for more of the redemption that was promised (I'll still stick it out) Thank you Pey, for taking at nuanced look at the Demon topic, as divisive as it is. I've watched this video series since the second one and I can't wait for the rest of the video series. I am rooting for you!

@2265Hello

24 күн бұрын

While I am not a fan of Tensei either I know some stuff about the original web novel and let me say that Rudeus we have now or form the light novel version is an actual improvement. To tdlr it the web novel rudeus was creeping on his niece and let’s just say that it lead to his brother beating him to death. Light novel rudeus iirc had a different beginning.

@bleato2

24 күн бұрын

@@2265Hello thanks for sharing! I didn’t not know that Let’s see the direction the anime adaption will take us

@2265Hello

24 күн бұрын

@@bleato2 yh but as for the current version and from my talk with fans of the series Rudeus will remain a sleaze just more contained. And he will improve and suffer the consequences of his actions but not in the way you would hope.

@eonstar

24 күн бұрын

I was also pleasantly surprised to find someone who had the same view as I about mushoku tensei. I think many of us had came in with that view due to a certain popular anime KZreadr haha

@a2pabmb2

24 күн бұрын

Redemption generally isn't something that happens overnight or even in a single/couple anime arcs/seasons. MT is taking its time and doing it right which probably feels wrong to people who haven't ever seen it done properly before.

2:35 that's actually one of those myth ones like lemmings running off cliffs. They only do that when starved but otherwise the same rules as any other insect applies: feed the mate or become the food.

Demons in Frieren are kind of like mosquitos, it's not true maliciousness, but yeah I don't want those things near me.

Oh! Thank you for your insights and perspective on the demons of Frieren! You've helped me understand them! ❤

I see a Pey video in my sub feed, I watch.

It’s fascinating to me that you can look at Frieren and interpret the story in such a neutral, nuanced way; then with Mushoku Tensei you basically throw all of that nuance into the wind.

I like how you ended this That space of silence To reflect

My personal take with the demons is that they are a lot like frieren. Yes they fight to sustain be the deamons also don’t know what to do with their infinite time a lot like frieren. They both don’t show emotion, both under estimate newer opponents, and critically don’t understand humans. I think these deamons are a reflection of what frieren would have been like without her party and her teacher.

@Al_Greg

24 күн бұрын

Absolutely wrong on a fundamental level. Frieren is an elf whom has emotions, but isn't very great at displaying them even all the way back when she first met Flamme. Demons cannot and I mean physically cannot comprehend emotions other then self preservation. The Demons lack humanity which is absolutely opposite of elves as they seem to have humanity, but live just as long. Flamme might have kick started Frieren's more generous and helpful nature, but she had to have such emotions to begin with to nurture. I don't view Frieren and Demons as two sides of the same coin, but two different coins that are roughly the same size.

@grandlancercuchulainn1509

24 күн бұрын

@@Al_Greg I think what op means how alien elves and demons are effectively aliens to humans, but frieren is different because she actually makes an effort to connect with mortals.

@adamwebster1666

24 күн бұрын

Frieren lived peacefully in the central reason for a millennia as civilization grew around her, while Aura appears to have spent the better part of her 500 trying to annihilate the city that grew up under the barrier Flamme planted there.

@Ryodraco

22 күн бұрын

@@Al_Greg yeah, Frieren has always shown emotion, just in subdued ways (which is common for mages in this series regardless of their species due to it assisting in mana control, as seen when we see demons and elves who are not mages and much more openly emotional). Frieren is also quite happy with her near-infinite time, her regrets have to do with not valuing the time of others enough.

for Jobless Reincarnation, the anime adaptation does muddy the issue. There are 3 conflicts in Jobless, person vs self and person vs society are the 2 that are relevant here though, his new society tries to convince him his old ways were right, with his growth over time being an active effort in spite of his circumstances. Jobless is about redemption and the active efforts for self improvement necessary for that redemption to be meaningful, but in the anime? It does make light of a lot of the moments where bad things are happening, a lot more than it does at least in the manga (haven't read the LN, or WN, but have heard things), moments the manga at least took the effort to frame in the serious light it needed to be presented in, without being overbearing and just telling you "obviously this is bad" it does a better job balancing the 2 conflicts, it acknowledges "in this world, this is the norm, and in this world, the consequences of these actions are relatively limited" but not presenting them all sing songy either, a big part of the premise originally was assuming the reader has basic empathy and morals and leveraging those feelings in order to convey the point, we all know watching a video of an underage child naked when you're supposed to be at your parents funeral is a horrid thing to do and not something a good person would do, it didn't need to go out of its way to tell you that, it used that existing understanding to get across just how messed up Rudeus is as a person. The anime adaptation is visually stunning and incredibly good in that department, but in regards to how it handles the story, it takes a story that unavoidably needs a lot of care put into the writing, and muddies the point with an over-reliance on conveying things more light heartedly to make it more palatable, while in the process making it lose a lot of the existing appeal to the story. I would highly recommend reading one of the other versions of the story given what you've said about it here

I absolutely love every single video in this series you make, not only because it’s about a beautiful show, but because you help inspire me to write and give me ideas. For example, I’m tossing around the idea of a character who realizes they’ve been a part of a genocide, and have to grapple with that. Sort of like ender’s game or something.

I also like that demons in this anime just don't show any empathy. That's the main difference between them and humans (/elves/dwarves etc.) and I think this makes for really good antagonists. They also can't be redeemed, because they just don't have the ability to feel empathy for another creature, even other demons. That's just how they are in this world and the fact that the pure lack of empathy is antagonized is just an excelent choice for a story in my opinion.

It is kind of a common trope now to have the demons not be evil

@oscargutierrez3206

10 күн бұрын

The difference lies in that most shows where demons aren't evil, it turns to them being just a human with a slightly different appereance. As such, while they might be a conflict between them and humans, it's something that boils down to prejudice an intolerante, and can be solved through political negotiations and a chance in perspectiva, leading to a change in the social paradigm and the possibility for coexistence. But these demons aren't like that. Demons are different from humans from a psichiatric point of view. The difference in behaviour is not learned, but developed from different brain structure. They are very specialized predators, who prey in humanoid beings, such as humans, elves and dwarves, taking adventage of their social lifestyle. They seems to be naturally inteligent and much stronger than any humanoid, thanks to a innate high talent for magic, and that allowed them to prey on the weaker species that rely on colaboration and empathy. As such, their undertading of lenguage is sophisticated, as they have the intelect to undertand complex concepts and words and can develop advanced ideas and properly express them. But as previously started, their brains aren't the same as humans. This makes them able to acknowledge the existance of abstract concepts like love, empathy and frienship and understand that their prey function based on these, but demons themselves cannot properly feel such emotions. It's probably similar to sight. It's already known that some animals can see light outside the sprectrum visible to humans. But since we are human, and our brain is meant to see the color of the light waves we perceive, we cannot fathom what color comes from those different lightwaves.

I would argue that Demons are actually meant to embody a different form of Neurodivergence, contrasting Frieren’s. Namely sociopathy. They are her thematic counter in that while they are empty on the inside yet able to express a host of false emotions, Frieren is full of emotions and love on the inside, but struggles to accurately express it outwardly. A trait she actually shares with the other key Elf in the series. The demons may indeed largely resemble wild animals, and the allegory is made, but the line I would draw is that they possess a thing Nature does not. And it’s their main driving goal. Pride. An ego. Arrogance. Something that is often also integral to sociopaths.

"What if demons didn't have to be evil?" You're a few decades late to be asking that question. Anime has had a glut of nuanced or misunderstood demons for ages

The last part is important. People keep acting like framing isn't a thing. This is similar to my beef to redemption arcs where characters story doesn't act like what the person did was wrong in the first place. There are a lot of villains that felt like they were just sorry that their plans didn't work.

One of the reasons I think Avatar is so good case study is it uses all four of the conflict types in a very effective way.

5:34 no they aren’t. If you are the one hearing the dog whistle, you might be the dog.

This was very well written and helped me organize and better understand some of the thoughts and feelings that I already held prior to this. I'm going to post my extra thoughts after I talk about the video so feel free to not read the second paragraph if you don't want a tangent on the strange thoughts that the video helped me put into words. As far as the bit about Mushouku Tensei goes, I also feel like the show hasn't been as great in the second season because Rudeus is no longer the bad guy that you're rooting for to get better, he's no longer the one that we're expected to see fault in. He's now the one that we're expected to believe is showing others the fault in themselves. That "vs. Society" as you put it. I still think that there have been some moments of noticeable character growth, but they have been much fewer and farther between because it is less introspective now. And as far as the demons of Frieren go, that moment that Frieren says "aren't you?" immediately stuck with me when I first saw it because it told me exactly what I needed to know about the demons of that world from the person that best understood them; they are wild animals that eat people. Frieren does not speak in superfluous ways, doesn't throw around metaphors or think irrationally. She was aware of a clear and present danger that others did not understand. To me, the demons in Frieren remind me of psychopaths. I've always found it odd that people will call psychopaths "not human" and follow that up with judging them as evil. I also think that they are not human but as a result, have always had a difficult time seeing them as evil. They are almost always dangerous, sure. But bears aren't evil. People just see psychopaths and say that they are not human to vilify them instead of understanding that they have had the things most people consider the foundations of being human stripped from them and, as a result, are actually a different animal. They are dangerous and should be treated as such, but they are not evil. They are just like the demons in Frieren. The human face and language only hold value to them as tools. Their two driving forces are similar; to find enjoyment for themselves at any cost (sometimes by metaphorically or even literally eating people) and to preserve themselves. They are scary, but so are tornadoes and tsunamis. Bears and sharks. They just look more like us.

Here's a pretty big wrench to throw into this theory. The thing is, demons in Frieren don't need to eat humans, they just want to. More so, this desire to kill overpowers logical reasoning to the point of running contrary to self preservation. That is why they are considered monsters. Monsters as a whole aren't natural creatures, that's why they crumble into dust upon death. In most medieval manga monsters as a trope or not a part of nature but instead a result of magic and thus aren't truly alive, providing protagonists easy targets to kill. Frieren does make it more complicated by making them intelligent with ability to reason, but at the same time it doesn't step away from them being monsters. Demons just aren't actual people, you can think of them like a artificial intelligence with purpose of killing humans. Their ancestor species where just imitating sounds to lure people, now gaining logic and intelligence after evolving, yet the purpose stays the same. Although, in later chapters we can see that this process is still going, and some demons begin to understand humanity better. Which only makes them more dangerous.

@impulseelectrobrine1259

16 сағат бұрын

But demons are alive. They have souls and they have sentience. Maybe not “alive” in the traditional form but still

Anytime someone talks about dog whistles you really have to ask your self if they are just projecting their own perceptions about what ever their claiming is a dog whistle. Because if your the only one that hears the dog whistle then maybe YOU are the dog.

@jaideepshekhar4621

20 күн бұрын

Exactly. 🙄

I don't think Demons can simply be compared to wild animals - precisely because we have a story of a non-wild Demon in the show. Relationships between humans and animals are things that happen - even wild animals. Humans raised by animals, animals that adapt to living with humans, the entire idea of pets. If Demons really value self-preservation, then the demon girl adopted into the human village wouldn't've so eagerly attacked those who showed her kindness in vulnerability. Animals understand this. Maybe she'd have attacked someone else in the village, but not THE PERSON who gave her food, a roof, safety and spared her from death. It obviously can go a bit both ways, but it's important to realize that this is fictional, and thus what is shown isn't statistical or documental. It was shown to make a point - the point being that humans and demons CANNOT coexist, which is not true at all in nature. Nature isn't all nice, but wild (tamed) animals and humans CAN coexist, they have for millennia. Because of this, I find the comparison of Demons to wild animals to be misguided. Because if that was the comparison, there would be more about demons in human society that'd be adapted to it and not be acting manipulatively. Animals and humans coexist. If humans and demons cannot coexist, there is no longer a blank value judgement applied to it - demons MUST be exterminated/segregated.

@seraphywang4638

23 күн бұрын

There is a severe flaw to your theory though and that is that some animals dont recognize people as their caretakers even if they have experience of them giving them positive experiences. Chimps are a prime example of this as they’ve been known to horribly maul their owners and other people despite the fact that they have been raised by humans. Same with Hippos who have killed their caretakers including one story where they killed their caretaker in the same rover they rescued it from. Wild animals are wild animals and while we can rationalize some of their behaviors, it’s still mostly theory that has been disproven time and time again. We could argue that nature is more about preserving a species but in reality, nature is the course of action that furthers an animals species in whatever way possible regardless if its the most efficient or not. This is how we get animals whose biology can kill themselves, animals with seemingly psychotic tendencies, animals that seemingly have no explanation for their behavior because even scientists has a tendency to humanize an animal and rationalize their behavior in human moral which is completely unknown to animals. Demons in this case only survived because their biology allowed them to. They kill humans because its convenient and because they can. They hurt people because they can. They arent inherently evil for doing it because their natural guide as instinctual is mostly something humans rationalize them for. Their moral compass doesnt follow a humans and so cant be judged by human morality. It just is.

@def3ndr887

21 күн бұрын

It’s more of a example of Civilized and uncivilized, yes we may adopt things of the uncivilized since it’s the reason we have domesticated wolves to become dogs but that’s the point. They must heel to our side to be accepted, to become civilized. Demons on the other hand try to do what humans do to animals which is to domesticate them, and so they learn language to trick humans into thinking they’re willing to become civilized, and at the right moment they strike and attempt to turn the tables on humans.

@tomykong2915

20 күн бұрын

@@seraphywang4638 yeah, we get animals with psychotic tendancies, bodies that can suddenly try to kill themselves, and no real explanation for their behavior, sounds like humans in a nutshell. other species of animals' behaviors are often more rational than most humans, that's the difference, and that's why we fail to understand them when we try and humanize them, but the processes surrounding those animals aren't rational, they just happen, and that rationality applies in response to that environment, and doesn't really work when they attempt to understand human behaviors, the behaviors you're talking about are unnecessary risks as far as most animals are concerned, another animal will generally only be doing things in its own best interest, so if it is giving me something, it's trying to get me, my mate, or my offspring, or all of the above, that's the thing

@neoqwerty

18 күн бұрын

@@seraphywang4638 Adding to your example with what I'm familiar with: alligators can and will snap at and attack familiar handlers who have been with them for YEARS and who they understand on some level are bringing them food, if the handler shows enough inattention for the 'gator to notice it. Some gators seem to be lazier than others about their reactivity threshold and the effort to take a shot at a bite, but even decade-long handlers recognize their alligator partner remains a danger even if there's some form of affection.

@felipecouto1102

5 күн бұрын

Nah man you have your facts mixed. Wild Animals *do not* generally recognize and refrain from antagonizing people they see as caretakers. The opposite actually, the most common thing on the area is to hear about rescuers who were killed by the animals they rescued. Its all fun and games to see the videos of Rescuers playing with Lions who they saved as cubs, but the ones you don't see outnumber them A LOT

i disagree with your claim that in the show demons show no malice in their actions, flamme plainly states that demons must flaunt their power or be attacked by others of their kind which is why they find it gross to hide their power for an extended amount of time. meaning they will eagerly crush any who they seem as weaker than them provided there isnt a potential long term use for them.

@Jonas-jx3kw

20 күн бұрын

he is right you will see that later

With Mushoku Tensei being recommended to others, I often think; "It is hard to enjoy for those who judge based on what is shown." - I want to recommend it for the redemption, but I realised it is not redemption, but Humility and the emotional turmoil and development that comes thereafter. Both Frierek and Mushoku are shows I deeply enjoy, with Frieren having very philosophical ideas given to me - that is how I take it in. To be thankful and joyful for what you have and what you can do to appreciate that is. Mushoku Tensei feels like a journey to understand a perspective, rather than accepting it as anything we'd have. To be emotionally into the show, I have felt very connected to how it builds the main character, Rudeus. I don't think he becomes redeemed, but rather humbled, while also having his flaws during his journey. To find his way from his trauma and past life and grow upon it. Perhaps it is growth, humility that I truly look at it for. I want to see what happens and I want him to always be better and beat his past somehow, being close to what can make him a better person, rather than being The Best person. Frieren is already at the end of her initial quest of journey, with her next one being quite the following interest to her growth as a character. Despite reaching the end, she is still able to learn and grow along the world that comes thereafter. Sorry for rambling. Your video game me a different perspective of the demons, whom I simply saw as chaotic and ruthless, while also unable to learn and manage life like others. Seeing them as animals wasn't really my thought and it feels true to see them as such. Yet it makes me "wish" they could learn, but sadly they're lost and often depicted as evil from our moral ethics as living beings.

@tomykong2915

20 күн бұрын

Mushoku Tensei is about redemption, just a different concept of redemption than most people have in their heads, it's a personal search of redemption, improvement, even if that improvement isn't to perfection, it's the kind of redemption I've always resonated more with to begin with, but beyond that, the anime adaptation muddies that a lot

All demons are evil incarnate, it's their nature. Except for Arueshalae, she is pure love.

Oops, clicked on this before watching the previous. Sorry to leave in first 30 sec, I’ll be back.

No demon can be more evil than my ex.

I think thematically demons are warning against empathy. Initially we are told Frieren's flaw is her unwillingness to be empathic and her journey is about her learning about that. Demons then come along and show you the dangers of being empathic all the time. I think the story is also hinting at something similar with the character of Ubel, just like the demons, she uses empathy against her targets. She can copy someone else's magic after understanding them and I presume she kills them afterwards. My theory is that she is going to team up with demons later on.

In some works, demonkins are just another species that live alongside others like elves, dwarves, fairies, dragonkin or mermaids, and humans are the ones that make enemies with the rest, perhaps especially the demonkins. In another, demonkins are just evolved humans with innate high magic abilities. In another, demonkins are otherworldly and inhuman species that invade human worlds for the fresher territories and new food sources. Anyone can be labelled anything, as long as they oppose humans as the core of the story/POV. Any antagonist type can be called demonic or evil just because they're fighting a human MC. The point to all this is that it's the humans who must learn to share and love others as their equal.

as a manga reader, I must say the fact that you had these thoughts with just the anime portion and the particular method you chose to prove your thesis on demons makes me realize how good and consistent the author is at writing the story's antagonist from the very start as well as planting crucial info for the audience to figure out how they aren't evil. one major arc in the manga will surely be a great treat for your interpretation. the next part is just a personal explanation of your conclusion on how it adds to the story. if demons are not evil, then the war between humankind and demonkind isn't the war between good and evil. its nature is a war for survival, our protagonists aren't heroes of justice and yet their greatness doesn't fall off because they are remembered not for justice but mainly for helping people in need. this is the entire premise of Himmel's heroism, which inspired events that led to Frieren's current journey.

I think S2 of Mushoku Tensei really show how Rudy adapt his new world socially. Back in S1 he take it like a game or simulation, but later on he must be an actual adult with responsibility in his new world. Its like nature vs nurture, where his previous life is his nature and his new life is the nurture. Both have good and bad things.

7:47 The judgement of Humbert is only part of what is going on in Lolita. The other part of it is Nabokov playing with the reader's habit of sympathizing with protagonists and trusting narrators. We *know* what Humbert is, but as we read his self-justification and self-deception, we tend to *forget*--and then when Humbert's mask slips again, we are disgusted not only with him but with *ourselves*.

The Frieren demons are among the most evil ever depicted.

@Jonas-jx3kw

17 күн бұрын

nope you will seee later

@Ibian666

17 күн бұрын

@@Jonas-jx3kw Already seen em. They are the embodiment of communists.

@Jonas-jx3kw

16 күн бұрын

@@Ibian666 you read the manga?

@Ibian666

16 күн бұрын

@@Jonas-jx3kw My replies are being deleted. This is pointless.

@Jonas-jx3kw

15 күн бұрын

@@Ibian666 why?

El dorado arc will change lives when it's animated.

I think, in stories..bad things happening just to happen doesn't get explored often in a tasteful and proper manner.

Honestly, Frieren is an absolutely fantastic anime in many respects. Mushoku Tensei on the other hand definitely has its ups and downs but I think part of Rudy’s character as written is that he does eventually find some sort of redemption, but it’s not quick nor is it straightforward. A point brought up in the most recent season was that even though he had the memories of a previous life that had extended into adulthood, in certain respects he hadn’t really *lived* much during that life due to shutting himself away along with his self worth issues and depression. His reincarnation gave him another chance, but it wasn’t one he was mature enough to properly frame for himself for a very long time, because, to paraphrase his own words: *‘He may have memories of an entire past life, but for all of that, he’s just been a kid playing at being an adult for a long time’*

This reminds me so much of every frame!

Rudeus Greyrat, from what I've seen in not-quite-spoilery comment threads, is less the protagonist of the story and more the gateway character. He's the guy who we know enough to empathize with introducing us to the setting, and since the story was written for Japanese NEETs who like fantasizing about isekai...well the stereotypes are exaggerated in Rudy, but not unjustifiable. Dying and going to another world was basically a dream come true for him. The draw of the story is seeing what happens in a more medieval setting with different laws (all the way down to the laws of physics, you can literally swing a blade faster than the speed of light in this setting) and cultural norms. And also, possibly, a long-form narrative about the bloodline of that one horndog from another planet who caught the Man-God's attention by being exceptionally weird. Fun fact, Rudeus Greyrat was supposed to be a stillborn infant. The fact he wasn't is all down to...extra-normal shenanigans I don't fully understand, and which might even be spoilers. So Nanahoshi's worries about 'corrupting the timeline' and similar such fears are...probably not completely unjustifiable? We certainly see a few characters already making statements of damn-near certainty about how people around him should and shouldn't have acted, and he changed all that. For the better or for the worse is yet to be seen, but he seems to mostly be having a positive impact on the people around him, perversion or no perversion. After all, in a setting where men are more honest and upfront about who they are and what they want (when they're nobility anyway) there's much less cultural shock and awe when someone powerful is revealed to have been, secretly all this time, a warm-blooded male with strange or unusual fetishes. That doesn't excuse the behavior, but it does explain why it's normalized and also generally not a focus of the narrative unless Rudy's done something incredibly fucking stupid _again_ because he's a 50-year-old virgin (or at the very most incredibly inexperienced in the sexual arts) desperate for some relief. Then, (spoilers for the latest season ahead) he actually gets married like a proper gentleman, gets laid on the regular, and suddenly he's much more capable of resisting the advances of someone he's admired for all of his (current) life. Not completely and totally resistant to a pretty woman trying to comfort him with her body, of course, not when she's someone he already likes so much, but compare and contrast that with the first time in the story where he was offered sex for dubious reasons. The character growth is small, but it is still noticeable. It was just never the _main_ focus of Rudy's character arc, so it didn't get detailed attention and a highlighted "sex is bad unless there's consent involved, kids" lecture from some stern father figure.

Rudys journey is about self improvement. By the end of season 2 we have was different person than I'm season 1

Those demons are quite interesting indeed.

In the manga heterogenia linguistico, the main character is learning the languages of different species of monsters to better understand them. When he asks one of them if they hate humans for subjugating them, they don’t understand the question. He realizes that’s because they view humans as a force of nature. You don’t hate tornadoes or earthquakes, you just fear them. And I think that relates pretty closely to how you describe the demons in frieren

This is a beautiful essay

Mushoku Tensei is a Person VS Person, although on account of the fact that he is naturally the way he is, it could be considered Person VS Nature. It is not a story of redemption, at least, not of redemption in the eyes of society, but redemption in the eyes of oneself. By the end of it all, the MC will be glad that they 'lived their life while giving it their all'. If that is not a story you think is worth telling or exploring then ultimately that's an issue of a personal nature and if you can't change that then it is only proof that one's nature cannot be changed so easily.

@tomykong2915

20 күн бұрын

it's person VS self, it's not person vs person as a whole, though it involves some person vs person sub conflicts, but beyond that, it's just what some of use view true redemption, it's still redemption when everyone around you is as bad as you were, society punishing you for trying to be better would make your efforts to be better anyways even more meaningful, because then you're not just being better for a reward, being better is the reward

Excellent video 👏

I love that it creates some conflict over wether its right to kill them the same as they kill us, Freiren ofc is very static on that, living thousands of years and seeing time and time again idealism getting you fucking eaten, but Stark (and maybe Fern i dont remember) have their relative inexperience that lets them question wether or not this situation could really change.

Very cool video!

The demons ABSOLUTELY act with malice, what are you talking about? Lugner and Aura especially seen to revel in causing suffering

@Jonas-jx3kw

15 күн бұрын

they dont just read the manga

@DarkAdonisVyers

14 күн бұрын

Oh, that's not suffering. They can't even successfully interrogate 1 guy. When I play as a dark side Imperial agent in SWTOR, I make those 2 look like schoolyard pranksters, which they are.

brilliant video essay!

this kind of thing comes up in fromsofts games alot

Kinda feel bad for this guy expecting anything of Mushoku Tensei. For anyone familiar with web novels, it's always been one of the originators of the "isekai reincarnation wish fulfillment" genre

So Parasyte is also pretty close to this kind of conflict.

"Rudy's hyper-sexualized acts end up getting rewarded" N..... No? End of season 2, and then basically all of season 3.

I do like pure evil trop mostly because my smooth brain doesn't like think.

Even when the Demongirl got killed, her Motivation to kill her Foster Father seemned just to be based on Missunderstandings, and her trying to increase acceptance by replacing a Kid she ate. Neighter selfeless, nor evil.

if frieren was based in a classic RPG D&D environment, i think many (all?) demons would likely be defined as chaotic neutral : they do as they like, sometimes on a whim. also, they don't care about things such as rules, and laws in particular; or to be more precise, they don't understand them in the first place.

@kuronya3582

22 күн бұрын

They more evil than neutral, most of demons want to hurt humans and consider them as prey

Wait a tic. Does this mean the demons in Frieren could've completely sidestepped getting into conflict with humans as a species by simply selling their services as mercenaries and snacking on their clients' enemies while on the job?

I found the portreyal of Demons in the show so fascinating because they aren't evil, they're just other, empathy isn't something demons naturally posses, and from a human perspective, we interpret a lack of empathy as evil, but where we have empathy, demons have honour in magic, that is just as important to them as empathy is to us, and, to them, Frierin's lack of honour is just as aborrant and evil as their lack of empathy is to humanity. The story is told to humans, thus we are predestined to agree with the human perspective, but who is to say that perspective is right? If history is written by the victors, then the only way to truly decide who was right and who was wrong is to look at who wins in the end, someone's belief is only validated by success.

if it isnt evil, it isnt a demon .

While I don't know if you'd be interested, there's a game series that I think you're style of analysis would be perfect for. It's called the legacy of kain, and it dives into the ideas of fate, redemption, and the idea of morality through perspective. Unfortunately the last game in the series came out in 2006.

I think that was at the point of the whole deal with Himmel and the demon girl as well, to show that demons aren't an analogue for humans in any way, they are wholly different creatures. The demon girl couldn't fundamentally understand what it had done wrong no matter how hard she tried, because it's just thinking about hunting, and she probably saw the humans of the town like dolls at that point, if she got rid of another one then they could be happy cause everything would be back in the structure it thought was there.

I need to watch this show asap

Your analysis of the demons is somewhat off. While i agree that it's mostly "person vs nature", there is still a way to judge the demons individually by their intentions. If i included the demons from the manga it would take too long, also spoilers, so i will only talk about the 6 demons that we see in the anime: 1. Qual - Qual is a monster. He looks like one, he act like one, he dies like one, his appearance makes this easy to understand so he's not given much of a thought afterwards. There's no simps on twitter posting pictures of Qual saying they can fix him. What's important is that other than appearance, all other demons are the same kind of being as him, in fact their appearance is part of deception, they look like humans to invoke empathy from humans. That is the only reason for their humanoid appearance. There's no question about Quals morality either. He developed what is essentially avada kadavra. Magic for the purpose of killing. He did this because he likes killing. In fact, i would argue you can judge a demons morality by the magic that they use. 2. Child demon - first off, what exactly makes a demon a child? Linie looks like an early teenager at best, but is at least 40, probably much more. The fact that demons have no concept of father or mother implies that they don't actually reproduce sexually. This might be my headcannon, but it seems what separates animals from monsters is that monsters aren't born from a mother but instead spawn by some law of magic. And demons are just monsters that look human and can talk. So it's possible that the child demons is a recent spawn, and so very lacking in experience, in fact we don't even see her use any magic, meaning she probably hasn't existed long enough to develop any. She's also the only demon I can definitively say is not evil, because her actions, while following a very flawed logic and lack of the understanding of humans, were done in self preservation. But it does speak volumes that the one demon that is not explicitly evil still ends up being the cause of death and grief to everyone around them. 3. Aura the Guilliotine - now we get to the good part. Aura is hands down the reason this debate happened in the first place, people arguing that Frieren should have spared her, because she basically had made her a slave and so Aura was now harmless. So let me say this - Aura is 100% unquestionably, undeniably EVIL. She is someone who has a lot of mana compared to most demons, and that basically makes her nobility among them. She is actively proud of this, in fact, it makes up her entire personality. You can see this by the fact that her magic is "let's see who has the bigger dick, if it's me, you become my slave and im 100% sure this will never backfire because i would have never created such magic otherwise." Her army is made up of men she subjugated with her magic and then decapitated so that they could never resist. She didn't do this because she starving, she did it because she enjoys it. And her being forced to cut off her own head after being humbled is the most fitting end for her. 4. Lugner, Linie and Draht - from what little we know about demon culture, demons with less mana have to obey demons with more mana, so these 3 are auras emissaries. This makes judging them somewhat harder because their actions don't seem to come from malice. However, they clearly take pleasure in killing, especially Draht, and the only reason Lugner seems to have an issue with it is because it jeopardizes their long term deception. All in all, they don't seem to be reluctant participants who are forced to follow orders. They are as committed to destroying the city and eating its people as Aura is. In the end i would judge them as evil because they do seem to kill people for pleasure, not just food.

My only disagreement, is some demons are shown to take pleasure in complex misery of humans. In a way, cats could also be thought of as evil I guess...

@thenewguyinred

17 күн бұрын

Although those demons could be the exception not the norm.

MT isn't trying to tell you that on the path to a better life you will never fail and that you'll always know what the right thing to do is sometimes you're gonna fall and fall hard and sometimes you'll regret every choice you made during a period in your life that doesn't mean that you're not allowed to pick yourself back up and continue growing into a better person Rudy was never going to become a Paragon of any virtues and that's never been his goal his goal as he stated was to live a better life than his past to not give up on living and be like the walking corpse he was in his first life his goal is to live and be better than he was and that means he's going to do somethings evil somethings immoral and a lot of things wrong on his path to do the right thing and live a life that was worth it that bettered the world in some way

I mean of course theyre animal like, theyre evolutions of mimic-like monsters.

I think some people might find it curious saying that demons aren't evil, since it's actually a common trope nowadays. But I believe there's a difference between the usual take and Frieren's. The difference lies in that most shows where demons aren't evil, it turns to them being just a human with a slightly different appereance. As such, while they might be a conflict between them and humans, it's something that boils down to prejudice an intolerante, and can be solved through political negotiations and a chance in perspectiva, leading to a change in the social paradigm and the possibility for coexistence. But these demons aren't like that. Demons are different from humans from a psichiatric point of view. The difference in behaviour is not learned, but developed from different brain structure. They are very specialized predators, who prey in humanoid beings, such as humans, elves and dwarves, taking adventage of their social lifestyle. They seems to be naturally inteligent and much stronger than any humanoid, thanks to a innate high talent for magic, and that allowed them to prey on the weaker species that rely on colaboration and empathy. As such, their undertading of lenguage is sophisticated, as they have the intelect to undertand complex concepts and words and can develop advanced ideas and properly express them. But as previously started, their brains aren't the same as humans. This makes them able to acknowledge the existance of abstract concepts like love, empathy and frienship and understand that their prey function based on these, but demons themselves cannot properly feel such emotions. It's probably similar to sight. It's already known that some animals can see light outside the sprectrum visible to humans. But since we are human, and our brain is meant to see the color of the light waves we perceive, we cannot fathom what color comes from those different lightwaves.

I found that the lack of morality within the demons in this show IS what made them evil. they aren't evil because they want to be harmful, they act in reprehensible or what we consider evil ways because of their lack of understanding or concept thereof.

Exactly. Frieren perfectly pruscribe demons as something different from humans and even if they are natural enemies for humanity they aren't nessesarily evil. Also, mushoku tensei lost me aswell in the middle of season 2. Almost every isekai or reincarnation story starts with personal growth and overcoming the past, but end up being centered on 'level up' and how easy everything is achievable. The biggest thing I hate about mushoku tensei, that every character exept of mc is an additon and it feels like the author didn't even care about their emotions and concentrated only on their relationships with Rudy.

@tomykong2915

20 күн бұрын

yeah, that's an anime only problem, which is a common theme with a lot of the issues people have with Mushoku Tensei, including the issues of his actions not being taken seriously by the story

Oh man I'm so glad you made the Mushoku Tensei reference. It was perfectly said and the exact reason I stopped being able to enjoy the show after the 1st season. I never even started the 2nd cour/half of season 2 because of what felt like the glorification aspect of the actions Rudeus was taking. I'd never felt so disappointed watching a show backtrack the way it did in the it's 2nd season.

I think there are a couple issues at hand. What does it mean to be evil. And what are the risks of essentializing some nature to all demons? I think it is probably true that by nature demons are generally amoral in a human context. But I don't think it is right to essentialize demons as no evil but amoral. I think there's plenty to suggest that at least some would be considered evil in as much we colloquially understand evil. While most of us would reasonably not consider a bear that attacks people as evil, Frieren's demons have more capacity to understand and enjoy the harm they inflict. There are absolutely signs that some demons gain a remorseless satisfaction from their victory over their intelligent prey. If evil means anything at all, what more does it require?

you made a huge labirinth of ideas to avoid cognitive disonance