I think it's also because cinemas used to have regular reruns of older films, and also tv would show ooder films all the time, but nowadays cinemas are less artsy and only show blockbusters, tv no longer airs them, and streaming services don't offer them so they are not watched. People don't know they exist.

@rahulbk6300

Ай бұрын

I think , the world has become less simple, less time for people to put thought on to other things rather than their careers and lives with stressing economies , if you ask any teenager in the 40’s and 50’s what they wanted to become when they grow up , they would’ve said a good job , good wife couple of children and a own house . Now you ask ourselves, we are breed with capitalism ideology of money , more money , over whelming more money . These are eating our brains 24x7 . We don’t have the capacity nor the patience to watch such films anymore

@rebel_diamonds

Ай бұрын

But, the movie dropping on the IMDb list implies that people are giving it a lower score on average. Or spamming 10/10 for newer movies.

@elijahalbiston

Ай бұрын

@@rebel_diamonds probably the second option to be honest.

@mg6945

Ай бұрын

@@rebel_diamondsit’s firmly both. The kids of today have heard so much praise for it that they see it and then don’t understand why it’s so highly regarded. But then it’s also the overrating of new films. Across the Spider-Verse was great, but it was so ambitious and overwhelming that it went over so well with audiences and that’s why it went no 1 on letterboxd. Same for Dune Part Two on IMDb

@SomeHarbourBastard

Ай бұрын

Been thinking, and I’ve come to believe that one of the biggest losses that’s synonymous with the rise of streaming is that it has reduced the likelihood of younger folks (yeah, I’m old, 30) seeing the classics. Back in the day, your options were one of four at a given time… - The small selection you owned on video. - Whatever happened to be screening at the local cinema. - Your parents taking you (or going by yourself if you had pocket money) to the video store. - Whatever was playing on TV. The most popular being the fourth option. Flipping from channel to channel or through your TV guide. You watch characters in certain 90s media and you get the impression that they all watched the classics. Example, in the 1992 film _Juice,_ Tupac’s character’s favourite movie is _White Heat_ (1949), starring James Cagney.

I went to film schools and they said Citizen Kane is an asset to cinema and will always be relevant to film making, no matter how much we enjoy technically advance movies or CGI.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Love this comment and I hope that's true! BUT....I have my doubts!

Older movies don't appeal to mainstream audiences sensibilities. Anyone interested in film and film making understands how films built up cinematic language over the history of film.

@Mr.Goodkat

Ай бұрын

To truly connect with a film you need to have an emotional response to it and appreciating and respecting a movie for advancements in filmmaking it brought forth doesn't achieve that, if you don't connect with the story, it doesn't matter how many "first's" a movie has to it's name whether showing the ceiling or a plot twist, it'd won't have longevity in people's hearts, they might respect it on an intellectual level and appreciate it's contributions but that's different, best way for true longevity is to emotionally move people. I don't think mainstream audiences today are any different than the ones 50 years ago in this regard at least and I think for that reason old movies actually will appeal to them, problem is they aren't willing to give them a chance to prove it, it's just assumptions they have, prejudice and old movies don't have equal availability, they're harder to find.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Love this! Mainstream is the key word.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Brilliant!

@tj2375

Ай бұрын

I think that people aren't offer the opportunity of watching older films. Hollywood started writing the copyright date in roman numerals so that it would be hard for the audience to spot that the film was old, and the business was structured around reruns of older films. The advent of color and other technical improvements rendered that model obsolete so now only new films are available in theaters. Older films were released and re released regularly to TV and DVD but that's a business that is obsolete also. Streaming services don't offer much of older films, it's all new films, platform exclusive "originals", and some films from the last 10 to 20 years.

Could you imagine if CGI or large budgets actually determined a film's worth? Yikes!

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment :)

Not only is this video's thesis suspect, it gets the factual details wrong as well. Citizen Kane did not make a giant splash when it came out; it wasn't until critics and directors like Truffaut re-evaluated it in the 50s that it gained its reputation. And even though it won the Academy Award for best original screenplay, the result was booed when it was announced. So our narrator is making up facts to support a weakly-reasoned idea in the first place.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment! The "narrator" is now commenting and would love to know how the thesis is suspect -- I love to learn - do enlighten me - thanks :)

Hi! Interesting video, but as someone who is currently studying film studies and is pursuing it as a career I just find your hypothesis to be highly pessimistic about the nature of film culture and generally flawed. Citizen Kane isn't just a footnote to film, it's one of the most important of all time and the IMDB 250 / Letterboxd 250 is a irrelevant metric to follow how influential and important a film is over a long period of time. We're living through a era of postmodern cinema culture where directors like Wes Anderson and Quentin Tarantino can make a living by purely copying older, international and underseen films and turn them into something new. Pulp Fiction is #8 on the IMDB top 250, but it's strong influences like Bande à part or Breathless by Jean-Luc Godard (neither is other influences like Deliverance, His Girl Friday and Black Sabbath) are nowhere to be seen, and that's natural. Good filmmakers, like Tarantino, will be able to take from other good filmmakers like Godard and make something that resonances with modern audiences. That's why polls and Sight and Sound and AFI are MUCH more important than "Letterboxd 250" and "IMDB 250", because critics and directors presents the films that inspire their art that resonates with us. Citizen Kane isn't "becoming a footnote", it's being left out by modern audiences because they struggle to resonate with older movies, but it's #3 on the BFI Sight and Sound 2022 poll, so clearly newer and older critics and directors alike agree on it's place in history. I just think modern audiences thoughts and opinions are more what's important to culture right now; films like Spiderverse and Dune Part 2 seem to have thrown themselves up onto the IMDB 250 and the Letterboxd 250, but how audiences will react from them in ten years may be completely different because IMDB and Letterboxd 250 are filled with recency bias and what's relatable right now, a way-worse system for measuring film than BFI's once every 10 year, top 10 poll with Sight and Sound. Time hasn't moved on, audiences have, but filmmaker's haven't. Citizen Kane's influence is still more clear than ever, I mean one of last year's most appraised films and Academy Award winner Oppenheimer by what feels like fan-favourite director Christoper Nolan, with in my opinion the major mystery moment with the "secret" Einstein conversation is basically just the film's rosebud moment. It's not that Citizen Kane has become common-place that means it's had it's downfall, it's become SO influential that it's groundbreaking accomplishments are being recognised EVERY TIME we watch a modern movie. That's more important than what IMDB 250 will lead you to think. And so filmmakers and audiences who are inspired by Oppenheimer, and Magnolia, Memento, Raging Bull, There Will Be Blood, The Godfather, The Social Network, and so many more modern movies will be tracked back to Welles and Citizen Kane to learn how it achieved such incredible feats. The same way we backtrack to the Lumiere Brothers & Buster Keaton & Charlie Chaplin & D.W Giffth already in film history. Citizen Kane's downfall within modern general audiences views isn't a reminder of how insignificant we all are and about how our favourite movies will be ignored 100 years into the future, but instead with how we praise entertainment that aligns with our current mood and society, and that no matter what, Citizen Kane's importance lies in it's legacy on what films we praise today.

@binyaminbass

Ай бұрын

Thank you for this take. And thank you for telling me about the BFI!

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Love this comment! It's actually brilliant. However, I do disagree with you. You see, the thing is....the masses don't know know about the BFI, the AFI, etc. They only know about Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB. You have to remember we're now in an age where you can be a filmmaker without going to film school OR watching great films of yesteryear. Most consumer cameras shoot 4k and you can film-worthy likes on Amazon, that are delivered the next day. These filmmakers now have various platforms to release their films. So the old school institutes like the AFI and BFI are becoming wholly irrelevant. When a new aspiring filmmaker now wants an influence they'll quote Synder, Bay and Anderson/Tarantino rather than Welles, Fellini, Bergman etc. Which, for me, is problematic. And this will just get worst and worse and worse over time. GREAT films and GREAT filmmakers will be lost to time. I know it sounds pessimistic - but we have to use terrible sites like RT as a metric of the masses sensibilities when it comes to films. Again, fab comment from you!

@glenis83

Ай бұрын

​ @MarcusFlemmings "The true work of art is but a shadow of the divine perfection." -Michelangelo That which endures is that which is true. I'm not so worried about greats being lost to time because as we've seen in the decline of the interest in award shows, nobody really cares so much about "who is best" anymore because there's no such thing. I think what makes films stand the test of time is did they touch on something true. Welles seemed to take that journey in earnest when he made Citizen Kane. I can imagine that's why the cinematographer wanted to work with him. It wasn't the standard way of doing things and it wasn't the surefire bet... it was two artists seeking something greater. Shawshank bombed at the box office but is now considered one of the greatest films of all time. You can argue about craft and what's a better movie but you can't argue the fact that it touched on a deeper level and because of that, it has lasted. And how many non-film nerds know who Frank Darabont is? (So underrated by the way... lol :)

@_OMAC_Ex_379

Ай бұрын

I study film in University with a lot of other students who are around 18 to 25 and want to be filmmakers, and a lot of them have not watched Citizen Cane or even The Godfather, and don't want to be told they have too. Most students are more influenced by films like JOKER than TAXI DRIVER. Few students really actually watch films voluntarily that were made before the 80s. And in a future where film and video content is being thrown at us in massive quantities, it is hard to say how the cinema of the previous generations can stay relevant when it is competing with so much more!

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

@@glenis83 Lovely comment! However, I would say this...the problem is that (and this may not be an accurate comparison) but think of how many musicians there have been over the years. Do you know how Howlin' Wolf is or Charley Patton or Robert Johnson? These were incredible pioneers and people who shape the music we listen to even today. Not only did they die almost destitute (not Howlin' wolf so much) but their legacy is little known. My concern is that this new wave of CONTENT is swallowing up all the wonderful cinematic art (including Shawshank) that has been crafted beautifully.

This anti-Welles evergrowing sentiment saddens me so much. I feel such a connection with all of his movies.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

The man was a genius and this film is a master work! Thanks for the comment!

@gonkdroid8279

Ай бұрын

Agreed. His filmography was amazing and all of his interviews make it clear he was brilliant

Time to admit my sin. At uni, during Film 101, 30 years ago, I skipped the screening of Citizen Kane in favor of the pub. It didn't stop me repeating the mantra "Citizen Kane is the best film". A decade later, I saw it and it's true, Rosebud is a kick ass twist of all plot twists.

@DanLyndon

Ай бұрын

I would argue, as Welles himself would, that Kane isn't in the top 5 films he made.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Naughty, naughty! I hope you had fun the pub though...that's the main thing! Kane is incredible.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

I've only seen 1 other Welles film...Touch of Evil and I prefer Kane!

I find Citizen Kane very similar to the works of Satyajit Ray. Just like Orson Welles he was a new director and tried many different unconventional things in his cinema and they are still talked about till this day. They both liked to experiment and do things which professionals thought to be foolish but little did they know it would revolutionize and make it the new normal. Legendary filmmakers !!!!!

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

I'm so appalled to say this, but Ray is a director who I've not watch yet. Him and Tarvorsky are the two I've not seen any of their work. I know they're masters. I need to sort myself out!

@aarushmullick

Ай бұрын

@@MarcusFlemmings you should definitely watch Ray. His movies are so thought provoking and challenging. You will regret not watching them. I promise you will have a great experience.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

@@aarushmullick I totally agree, he is one of the greats!

@mcplainview8376

Ай бұрын

Recently watched Nayak The Hero, great film!

@aarushmullick

Ай бұрын

@@mcplainview8376 haha. That is my most favourite movie of Ray. Great to know you liked it.

A bit of a misleading title. CK is not considered a “bad” film today. It’s just maybe not as revered by everyone, and even then, it still had its fans. It also tells a good story, independent of its technical innovations.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment! Appreciated! I would say, however, I've heard so many people say they hate the film. So many! So the title certainly wasn't;t written for clickbait, I can assure you :)

I believe that Citizen Kane, The Godfather, or any other influential films will never truly be forgotten. To say that they will would be like saying that because the discovery of electricity happened almost three hundred years ago, it no longer affects us. It was a milestone in the field of science, just like Citizen Kane was a milestone in the field of filmmaking. Even if the movie itself is forgotten, its impact will still be felt for generations to come.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Fab comment! Totally agree - each and every filmmaking/film of modern cinema has the DNA of this film (And many others) running through them!

How interesting, I really didn't like Citizen Kane, but it is undeniable that, from a technical and narrative point of view, it changed the way of making films, this cannot be erased by the change of position on a list, which is pure statistics.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Love this Maria! And I'm so glad it's true...my only issue is the younger generation who won't watch it!

@mariafernandaparedes975

Ай бұрын

@@MarcusFlemmings I have an 18-year-old niece who wants to be a film director, she still has a lot to learn, but she knows that Citizen Kane is a must watch. Great art is never lost, that's why we continue reading Shakespeare or listening to Mozart

I'm sorry, but IMDB Top 250 is not a good example to show the best or most important movies of all time. I don't get the point of the video, after all Citizen Kane is still considered to be one of the most essential movies in general.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

The point of the video is to say that your very statement is incorrect. It's not considered to be one of the most essential movies in general. The masses don't look the AFI, BFI, etc. They look at Rotten Tomatoes, LetterBox'd and IMDB. So a 18 year old is not going to know anything about Citizen Kane. Or even about its existence. Thanks for the comment none-the-less!

@samuelzins5089

Ай бұрын

​@@MarcusFlemmingsi have to respectfully disagree. It is absolutely still considered one of the most important movies, it's just that my generation and the ones that mostly use imdb don't tend to watch older movies much. Maybe as they get older they will. I have a friend my age who just said he's gonna watch a four hour german language-captioned silent film, which he wouldn't have done before this year. And this is probably implied already but i love movies from that generation But regardless of audience, it's not as if people's opinion of citizen kane is going down, it's just the demographic that rules those rating sites doesn't watch that era unfortunately so less people have an opinion on it

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

@@samuelzins5089 Nice reply! BUT the video isn't about how it's considered now, per se. It's about how it'll be considered in the future, if by the metric of the masses it's gone from being 2nd or 3rd to 102 in just 5-10 years.

Three factors to consider… Marty’s hypothesis of training the audience and setting there expectations and creating their appetite doesn’t just hold true for cinema… it’s actually pretty basic neuroscience. So we now have an audience trained on blockbusters (and the last decade is pretty bereft of anything with any fiber) with rare expectations such as blade runner 2049, Dune 1 (and as many problems as I have with 2)… and I’m sorry but inception was Nolan’s last true opus with any depth beyond the pizazz. 2. Social media and to a lesser degree (but still detrimental) television and video games have completed with cinema, and retrained the attention span to be further and further intolerant of true engagement and supplanted it with the need for consistent and constant dopamine hits. 3. Audiences are now laden with the crackpot theory (that was a thought experiment at first) authors intent… that the audiences interpretation is not only equally valid, but in fact more valid… especially if it contradicts the authors stated intent. This toxic waste dump way of viewing art has given rise to countless bad takes, ways to strip art of its merits and made scores of talentless hacks elevate themselves from mediocrity… when engagement is the pursuit… nothing works like a hot take. People are not great with context, so your point about something revolutionary ultimately ends up a trope definitely blocks viewers from giving credit to the trailblazers.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Wow! You need to get into speech writing - this is potent stuff. I agree with all points you mentioned...I think social media has had a minor impact. BUT its long term impact will be crucial!

@Vitaphone

Ай бұрын

@@MarcusFlemmings just to clarify social media would be TikTok/instagram stories short form media, polling and research shows Gen z and alpha rarely watch tv or films opting for short form media… it’s looking very dire for cinema.

what a depressing note to end the video. truly loved it!

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Haha! Sorry! It's bittersweet!

Most of the ''Things like this or this'' had already been done by Jean Renoir in 39, with « La Règle du Jeu ». Kane came 2 years later. Latest mass success remake of social climbing scripts must be « Parasites ».

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

I like this! However, I don't think Welles took from that film...I could be wrong!

@michelnormandin8068

Ай бұрын

​@@MarcusFlemmings My point is: from its humble beginnings, cinéma is an art form made by creative crews specialized in affining the old tricks of the medium. Right now, Jonathan Glazer is LA Nouvelle Vague. He deconstructs old story telling dogmas with different bells & whistles.

This is kind of a silly video. No one goes to IMDb to find out which films are considered the greatest ever made. Citizen Kane is still near the top of the list of Sight and Sound

@nms7872

Ай бұрын

agree. IMDb is a quick/early guide to movies in a casual sense. But if you seriously use it as an academic or legit source, something is off. Not to say IMDb list is bad, there are plenty of great and essential listings there. But to discredit Citizen Kane's standing in the history of movie off of an internet forum is ridiculous. But recency bias plagues it. citizen kane has clearly stood the test of time

@DanLyndon

Ай бұрын

Sight and Sound is almost more idiotic a list than IMDb. The only list I've found that's reliable and not full of BS is Cinemension's, although not ranked.

@LosHuxleys

Ай бұрын

The best list is the one that Piero Scaruffi made

@DanLyndon

Ай бұрын

​​@@LosHuxleys That's a good list, although there's a lot of stuff on there that shouldn't be and the ranking makes no sense at all.

@Mr.Goodkat

Ай бұрын

Lot's of people go to IMDb to find out just that actually, I guarantee you more do than go to S&S.

Just found your channel and watched about 5 videos in a row. Loving your work man 👍🏻

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

HUGE love for this! Means alot!

I'm no cinema expert but I'm pretty sure that there's a significant difference between a thing slowly being forgotten due to its age and it somehow becoming bad. Quality does not equal current popularity, in fact popularity doesn't even equate to how much you can enjoy something or learn from it, it just makes it easier or harder to find out about its existence. The title is very misleading.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment! Not misleading at all - many people do not like this film and it used to be some of the most celebrated and liked films in cinema.

I'm so old I knew what "Rosebud" was the moment I heard it. Now most people would not! Interesting inversion....

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

HHAHA! I won't even comment! Great comment :) stick around!

Love the videos, man. Keep it up!!!

@MarcusFlemmings

29 күн бұрын

BIG love! Stick around!

The masses have never cared much for art outside of transient entertainment. Cinema helped promote a view that this was more an accessibility issue because of how popular it was, time has proven it right the masses don’t care much about art. Actual film lovers will always make sure films like Citizen Kane, Sunset Blvd, The Godfather, aren’t forgotten. Horror fans are still watching 1922’s Nosferatu, Universal’s Frankenstein, Hitchcock's Psycho, Carpenter’s Halloween. Film appreciation is going to be fine, just gotta shatter illusions the masses care about it. They care about novelty, talk about it, move on to next thing.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Love this "Actual film lovers will always make sure films like Citizen Kane, Sunset Blvd, The Godfather, aren’t forgotten. "!

To be honest, IMDb was never reliable to begin with. I mean, avengers infinity war and endgame are at like 60 something when movies like citizen kane sits at 102. 90% of the time when I look at an IMDb score, I'm like "What the heck?"

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Hahaha! I used to live and die by IMDB...but some of the recent scores I've seen on there are baffling! Thanks for the comment!

@tmamone83

Ай бұрын

Yeah, IMDB users tend to be the harshest critics. Look at the reviews for anything film that has Black, female, and or LGBTQ main characters, and you'll see people complain about "wokeness."

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

@@tmamone83 I kinda agree with you!

Wonderfully humbling message

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Thanks for this :) big love!

4:57 Excellent video. I'm not sure when I came to this conclusion, but it was very early on with video games. I was still jamming on an Atari 2600 in the 90s. I thought it was cutting edge. Until I learned about the Sega, Nintendo, Game Boy, and the Game Gear. No one talked about or played Pac Mac but adults.

I love the fake ending 50 seconds in. Perfectly done. I'm one of those film school guys who was force fed Citizen Kane until I wanted to puke. To this day, I've only seen the "important" scenes, and never brought myself to watch it in its entirety. Though, I do have a crazy amount of respect for Orson Welles and Kane's behind the scenes story though. If 100 years from now, my favorite films are 102 on any best films of all-time list, they will have risen significantly from the status they now hold. Sure, there's a difference between best and favorite. Favorite can be entirely subjective, but best starts to delve into objectively quantifiable territory. Nevertheless, I've had full blown arguments with professors and classmates about why I honestly believe Return of the Living Dead is one of the best films ever made.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

This is your number 1 comment on your list of best comments! Love this one. So true about the idea of fave and best.

@SewerTapes

Ай бұрын

@@MarcusFlemmings Cheers.

I've never been a fan of Citizen Kane, it's great but I never thought it was an all gime great, but I cannot deny the impact the film had on Hollywood

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Great comment! The think is, some films are great but maybe we just don't enjoy them. And that's okay :)

A depressing but insightful video. It's people like us who keep these films alive, folks

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

YES! Keep the flag flying!

Some great points are made here. I want to add to the discussion about "cinema dying" as a cinephile, Chinese, and Gen Z. China, with its second-large population, should bear a vast film market. However, due to censorship, we don't have a theatre culture here; all the films shown are sub-par, blockbusters, or, in recent years, tasteless, unoriginal crime/thrillers arguably many times worse than your average Hollywood film. It's well-known that most consumers here are exposed to and brainwashed by fast-paced, simple-minded, and occasionally propaganda content. The poor aesthetics and concepts from theatres trained audiences to view films impulsively and with a narrow mind. In that case, one can argue that this might not necessarily be bad, as it distinguishes critical-minded individuals from crowds, in the same way the niche market is determined by the popularity of the masses. In my opinion, the real issue is the boom of social media, namely TikTok, has become a more significant threat to the art of films. Hundreds of thousands of film summaries are flooded on Chinese TikTok(DouYin), and I call them "summaries" because they simply strip a film to it's core. The most basic plot structure of the entire film is explained within three minutes in an AI generated voice, with the same cliche suspenseful/melancholy music playing in the background. These AI commentators uses slangs and colloquials to express the film with the greatest subjectivity or oftentimes humor, in order to grab the audiences attention. The target audience of such films range from teenagers to a delivery guy on his motor to the dad who wants to pass some time on his toilet seat. These film summaries garner tens of thousands of likes. I've seen on several occasions, great films from Tarantino, Scorsese, Lars Von Trier, Yorgos Lanthimos, Michael Haneke etc undergoing this immoral, degrading treatment. There are several explanations behind this appalling phenomenon: lack of copyright laws in China causing films and clips to be pirated and shown on any websites, social media, short attention span of the generation and demand for dopamine hits rather than immersion. But whatever the reason, the sad truth is that so many great films are shown(an act that should've been praised) to more people but in such a belittling way. Without any of it's artistic values retained, people think that the suspensful, violent or epiphany bits of a movie are what movies really and is all about. People don't care about movies, and with the help of these film summary "content creators", your favorite directors is just another appetizer for someone who scrolls through more films than you would ever see in a month. Film have became entertainment, and cinema is dead.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment :) I don't know much about the Chinese film industry - it seems like it's the biggest industry in the world at the moment - if based on numbers only! But love your breakdown of what is really happening. Stick around!

In a similar vein one might ask "What do we have to learn from Shakespeare anymore?" and one answer might be "At least as much as Kurosawa did when he made Throne of Blood and Ran."

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Love this! The perfect comparison - all art is art multiplied!

fantastic video , subbed!

@MarcusFlemmings

27 күн бұрын

Huge love for this!!

I feel like I inspired this somehow with my slagging off of Citizen Kane in comparison with Memories of Murder? 🤣

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

It's all your fault! Now look what you've done :-D

@fricozoid1

Ай бұрын

@@MarcusFlemmingsthe worst thing I did was remind you of film school probably!

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

@@fricozoid1 I never went - but have heard stories!

High standards in cinema elevate and change so I'd think that would obviously affect some classics but we cannot deny that classics are the ones that released before and would always have a place in cinema no matter how bad or minimal they are compared to today's movies.

@DanLyndon

Ай бұрын

What do you mean how bad they are compared to today's movies? Today's films are atrocious compared to anything made by Welles. The writing is often brain dead and hamfisted, the characters lack depth, and the filmmaking is artless. Films don't advance like computers - "Oh this was good for its time, but we have so much better things now." No, we're in an age where the average filmgoer can barely put their clothes on in the morning.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

VERY true! I just worry that the next generation of filmmakers are going to influenced by Justic League rather than Kane!

@samuelzins5089

Ай бұрын

While some of them have dated features, I've found that the writing in a lot of old movies tends to be flat out better than modern ones. Also talking about absolute quality, I'd argue no decade tops the 70s but 90s are close. Modern cameras, effects, and sound are better, but I'd say that's about it with obvious exceptions I would even consider myself optimistic for the future of cinema because Oppenheimer, dune 2, top gun maverick, killers of the flower moon, and tenet are all among my favorite cinematic experiences, and they're all this decade. Just want to make clear I'm not strictly saying older movies are better and everything from today is crap because that's not quite true

Certainly would like to hear your vfx explaination of 2001 a space odyssey. For me im pretty sure the vfx does age well and looks timeless

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

I'm doing a Kubrick video soon! Not delving too deeply into 2001 but talking it about it a bit. TBH, I'm not a VFX expert so I shouldn't really talk about it too much. I only know when things look good and bad :-D

It may be a memory hole matter when it comes to Kane. Films have been so democratized and accessible to produce that the entire cultural caretaker system we’ve relied on until now has dropped off. The whole attitude that. “Critics don’t know shit” and “I don’t care what anyone else likes” has taken over. Kane is a causality, but not the only one, sadly. It’s not the film’s fault. It’s become a homework movie to some but each time I watch it (and I do at least once a year) I have to be reminded of its narrative, of its sequence of events, and how memories are embedded inside memories. And that marriage sequence! An entire film unto itself. The film as a whole contains multitudes. Drama, comedy, musical, historical epic, melodrama, even a bit of slapstick and a series of framings and blockings that shame other filmmakers and their refusal to let movies move, for Chrissake. I would encourage any aspiring film maker or just a film fan to reconnect with Kane. It’s not a drag. Not even for a second. It’s thrilling in every frame.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Kane is one of the most influential films ever made. It's informed me hugely as a filmmaker. Moreover, I agree...this new social mantra of 'my opinion is the only opinion that matters" is hugely alarming!

If anything, I feel like this video is too short to cover a topic like this. Because, despite what a lot of other film buffs have said in the comments, it is kinda undeniable that we are seeing a fundamental shift in the way people view movies. Whether we like it or not, everyone grows up in a different context when it comes to film. Let's be honest here, younger audiences aren't being inspired by Citizen Kane because, while it did change the way movies were made, it still is at the end of the day something that isn't relatable to newer generations. Today's future filmmakers are being wowed by Christopher Nolan, Denis Villeneuve, Greta Gerwig, Jordan Peele, etc. I've started saying this: consensus is temporary. Back then, people hated the Star Wars prequels, but as those audiences died out and the generation that grew up on them are now on the Internet, the prequels have gotten a new life. A similar thing happened with 2002's Chicago. Back then, and up until the late 2010s, people called it one of the worst Best Picture winners ever. Now, younger audiences have come back to this film's side and are calling it a groundbreaking musical adaptation that totally deserved Best Picture. Every film has a critical expiration date.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Great comment and I don't sgree - adaptation and evolution is important in any art- but its a sad moment when great art is forgotten!

I just use IMDb for info (like a database lol) and as a quasi-blog for reviews. The whole list thing...its fun debate but all subjective. Cumulatively they can give you a small idea on what "majority likes". Sports media is huge into lists so I get it lol

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Love this comment! Yes, all art is subjective! I do think though, that there is a standard of good and bad in art - especially in film!

3:01 I’m just confused why Vertigo is considered by many to be the greatest film of all time. I wouldn’t even put it in the top 5 best Hitchcock films of all time.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment! Many people consider it to be his best film :)

During pandemia my daughter made a group to watch movies every night at the same time and after that we discuss it (on line, of course), and this was the first at my request. All the viewers were young (except me) and with university degrees in different areas, and the only one who loved the film, though I must have seem it 20 times or so, was me. I was 60 and the rest between 25 and 30. Conclusions?

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

I think you've pretty much proven the point with this one comment - it's a shame that the younger generation can't appreciate older art. Great comment!

I loved Orson Welles as a kid and was shocked when I got around to Citizen Kane and hated it. I saw it years later as an adult and was dazzled and blown away by it. I think Kane gets Shakespeared. I think people have it forced on them when they're too young and inexperienced to relate to it and don't catch the vicious satire running through it. I remember thinking it was ludicrously overblown as a kid--the mockery and irony running through every scene was completely lost on me, and I took it all as overblown tragedy that didn't feel earned.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Shakepeared sums it up perfectly! Awesome comment!

@horaciomillan4181

Ай бұрын

I think the first time I saw it I must have been around 9 or 10 yo, accidentally, and still remember I liked it very much. The story is very understandable, even for a kid, there’s a sense of mystery, enigma, darkness, the feeling something bad is about to happen. Just like in any horror movie.

You're not a film enthusiast until you've heard a film student complain about Citizen Kane 😂

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Pahahaaa! Exactly! Much like how Shakespeare is hated in ALL schools across the world!

I would like to add that when this polls are made today, they ask this questions to people that have been bred with Marvel films and think they are wise and deep. How many of them have seen Il Gatopardo, or a De Sica movie? And more important, could they understand them or watch them till the end? Can a common today’s person keep the concentration and analize something, when they have been formed to be passive viewers who just sit back, open the eyes, and let the film simply happen?

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Love this comment! I've not even seen il Gatopardo or De Sica - are they good?

@horaciomillan4181

Ай бұрын

Absolutely, Il Gatopardo is a masterpiece and De Sica won 4 Oscars for foreing movies.

It's ironic that a film that once was really celebrated for taking risks and going against the standard became the new standard to constrict artistic expression once again, by no fault of its own. It's just another case of each generation assuming they're smarter/more imaginative than the one that came before them.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

My friend, this comment is TOP TIER! love it!

generally, films and music of our youth have a special place for us. and often preceding generations don't appreciate the works of the past. Oh, by the way I love the works of Orson Welles but today's generation would be unfamiliar and perhaps bored by the works of yesteryear. Sad!

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

VERY sad! Thanks for the comment! And your username is cool too - very filmic!

"Time has moved on," of course, but if people care about things like magazines making list, they're never going to like Citizen Kane. They'll think the latest Marvel crap is the greatest filmmaking. And if they think that, who cares? The truly good stuff will always have enough smart people who understand that The Best isn't the same as My Favorite.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Another fab comment sir! Yes, favourite is different from best. Wizard of Oz is my fave film...but it's not the best film. Although it's damn good!

I like Citizen Kane. Better than many movies released these years anyway with all the available references, budget, talent, and technology

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

VERY much so! For me it's certainly one of the greatest films ever!

The masses have never understood great art anyway. Welles made 4 or 5 films that go beyond Citizen Kane artistically, but people just want to talk about scholcksterpieces like Shawshank or The Dark Knight. The more dumbed down the better. If anything I think this is a phase and in the long run Welles will outlive all of the biggest filmmakers today.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Fab comment! Agreed - on the longest timeline the cream always rises to the top. Stick around!

Cinema was just one of many art forms of passive light entertainment. Critics saw it as a cheap ( a trick ) art form... no more meaningful than previous art forms. Most films were very poor, only a few shone as anything more than shoddy money-grabs. Then cinema shifted... it jostled its way to becoming the greatest art form for the ordinary masses. No other passive entertainment could do what film could. Couldn't match, its ability to embody so much emotional impact. With so little given by the viewer in return. Cinema grew to be a monstrous industry. Spewing out 'product' endlessly. It has become so relentless... people are used to a certain level of quality. They don't even see 'quality' anymore. They only notice it... when it's completely absent. Consumers are only after whatever is new. Even if that new thing is a remake or a sequel. It must be brand new and that's what the industry gives its customers... a never ending supply of 'new stuff'.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Wow - this is brilliant! One of the best comments I've had on the channel so far. Do stick around!

@commonwunder

Ай бұрын

@@MarcusFlemmings *Good luck with your channel!

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

@@commonwunder BIG love!

I get that the film had some groundbreaking cinematography but just on its own it’s just boring. It took me starting it three times to get through it. There are other movies from that era I have enjoyed but CK just bored me

Because nobody is watching it anymore. It's hard to access, and, as it was made in 1941, is becoming less and less relatable by the day. On top of this, as an incredibly influential film, its influences which borrow from it are taking its place in the zeitgeist. You see the same in other mediums, like writing or music, but those are much older mediums, and so it's less noticeable. No one's going to make this video about Mozart or whatever may have influenced that which came after.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Thanks for comment! Fair point...I do think someone SHOULD make a video about Mozart and it's influence on modern music ;-) maybe I!

@JakeBodenhamer

Ай бұрын

@@MarcusFlemmings I'd watch it 🤷‍♂️

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

@@JakeBodenhamer 🤣🤣

sorry, you're wrong on this one, buster. Citizen Kane is considered bad now because new generations are too sensitive to cockatoo jump scares.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment! Big love!

You’re being too dependent on mainstream taste with your argument here when Citizen Kane has never been held up by the mainstream. It’s not like Letterboxd of the 1980’s would’ve held Citizen Kane in a higher regard than the 2020’s Letterboxd does; when opened up to a large enough group, a film like Kane is always going to suffer because it’s not for everyone. But it remains a genius piece of work to all the people who ultimately maintain the canon of film, and for that reason it will never fall off.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment! However, the whole video is based on the fact that Citizen Kane used to be #2 on IMDB. So yes, it has been revered by the mainstream and back in 1980 it would have had bigger popularity. Because it would have been closer to the film's initial release date. Much like how people loved 80's movies.

I think , the world has become less simple, less time for people to put thought on to other things rather than their careers and lives with stressing economies , if you ask any teenager in the 40’s and 50’s what they wanted to become when they grow up , they would’ve said a good job , good wife couple of children and a own house . Now you ask ourselves, we are breed with capitalism ideology of money , more money , over whelming more money . These are eating our brains 24x7 . We don’t have the capacity nor the patience to watch such films anymore

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

You could be right! I hope not...but maybe! Great comment!

Meh. Footnote? One: I don't care, as the films I hold up the most regard are not even known today. I hope though I can give them a little push. Otherwise: I realised something like 10 years ago, when re-watched Matrix 1: it no longer holds up. Because its main thing was spectacle. And spectacle will be outshined. The second is: simply pacing. Older, and I mean the older pictures are simply way slower. And has much less content. Like I tried to watch The Twilight Zone series, and those 40 minutes for their one twist at the end simply no longer worth my time. They were ok-to-good back then, but now ... And there are the films that's only relevant when they were made. --- What I suggest is - revise the list of "best movies of all times" time to time. Because a lesser movie can be more timeless. More entertaining. More creative in some aspect. There are movies I can suggest to you from whenever, which I can guarantee you'll at least not hate, and won't get bored of. But would I remove Citizen Kane from film-schools? No! Some films belong to the museum/library of professionals. But museums are not home-entertainment, can we agree?

@BillGunslinger

Ай бұрын

I don't know... I think old movies can be as entertaining as modern movies once you get used to them. I have seen many movies from the 40s that I thought were better and more entertaining than movies like Marriage Story and 1917. (2019 was the year I became a cinema fan). I think a good movie is a good movie no matter when it was made, but most people don't want to take the time to "learn" the language of old movies. It is an acquired taste, just like literature.

@DanLyndon

Ай бұрын

Older films do not have less "content" - Kane or any other Welles film has much more content or substance than just about anything made these days. What you are talking about is stimulus. There's more stuff happening and more cuts and more sensory bullshit in modern films, but they have far less depth than any great classic, and depth is the thing that matters in the long run. I don't think Citizen Kane is lacking in any way compared to what we have now, it's just that people these days are so much more superficial in their understanding of art. the stuff that replaced Kane is not any superior work of art, it's just dumbed down schlock - tearjerkers and wish fulfillment. It's nonsense.

@AmityvilleFan

Ай бұрын

@@DanLyndon Sure. Whatever you say. But I remember an episode of South Park about art... And I tend to agree with it.

@AmityvilleFan

Ай бұрын

@@BillGunslinger Choking during sex can be "entertaining" when oyu get used to it - but does it worth the time, effort and risk? I don't expect people spending years getting accustomed to outdated film-making when there are easily accessible alternatives. I vote on just selecting the few that stood the test of time. Because while I say the present has to compete with the past, I also say the past also has to compete with the present. And those which are fit enough, survive. Naturaly that means the older the entertainment, the bigger chance it goes extinct. And that's ok. There are even "living fossils", like the 1920 Nosferatu - you don't have to learn anything to enjoy that. Or that 1902 Journey to the Moon. Will you like it for the same reason they enjoed back then? Hell no! But the general audience will still probably like it. Without spending years in film-school.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

I like how you finished this comment! Yes, Citizen Kane should remain in schools - its one of the life bloods of cinema!

You missed a major fact though. Citizen Kane didn't make an instant impression on film when it was made. It was all but forgotten until a French director rediscovered it and declared it to be a masterpiece almost 20 years after it was made, then the movie world took notice for the next 50 years or so.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Thanks for the fab comment!

@RussellB

Ай бұрын

I've seen this mentioned in the comments twice now, if this were true why did it get 9 nominations and one win at the 1942 oscars? Is that not the film having an instant impression?

@osphranterrufus

Ай бұрын

@@RussellB There is a long list of forgettable movies that won best picture and CK didn't even do that. Granted, it was noticed within the industry to some extent, but soon forgotten until the late 1950s. I'm no film expert, that's just my take.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

@@osphranterrufus I totally agree with you. Which is why I said in the video it had an instant impact :) many others have said it didn't have an impact. It did.

Interesting. 108 isn't bad and Citizen Cane is obviously one of the most influential films of all time.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Exactly and should be much higher! Thanks for the comment! Stick around :)

This is “neither here nor there” - so far as the average movie fan is concerned - but some “big wigs” in the Media Industry don’t care for a central element in “Citizen Kane” - its caustic look at the power of Media moguls. Kane is modelled on Randolph Hearst - google the latter. Possibly those disaffected with the Mainstream Media of today could lead a campaign for the average person to “rewatch” Citizen Kane - whatever your politics, the issue of media power is as relevant as ever !

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment! Very good stuff :) and yes, it's modelled on Hearst - he tried to stop it from being released!

I'd watch any 80 year old plus movie over any marvel movie anyday.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Hahaha! I mean I love Marvel up until Endgame, ironically. But I'd pick Citizen Kane over any of those films!

Nice video. Tangentially, Dick Cavett really was the was the worst host who got the best guests for years and years. I'm always seeing clips of his show because of the great interviewees he had, but he is just such a waste of space interviewer; shallow, ignorant, basic in the most derogatory way.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

PAHAHAHAHAA! I think I LOVE this comment...but not sure. He reminds of me Jimmy Fallon....can't lie...I like them both. They're not the best interviewers at all - but they're fun! Thanks for the comment :)

@JB-fp3fb

Ай бұрын

@@MarcusFlemmings Fallon at least seems to have a good vibe with the guests. He's more humble; it's easy to make him laugh, he's so easy to impress. He's a big goofus who just runs fun puff-pieces, but he seems nice. Cavett took himself WAY too seriously as a "Journalist", even though his interview skills were Jimmy Fallon-level.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

@@JB-fp3fb Pahahahah! Love this!

People move on. Shakespeare used to be big during his time.

@DanLyndon

Ай бұрын

Shakespeare is still big, in fact he's arguably more popular today than ever. Most great artists only grow in their influence over time. Welles will still be talked about long after any of the big names today are forgotten. This is how things go. Works of depth that are irreplaceable continue to live on, but always there will be some current hot thing that is more popular for a while.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

They do move on - but we should also appreciate brilliant art. Thanks for the comment!

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Beautifully said!

Citizen Kane was never a good movie.

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

Can't agree with this - it was, and still is, fantastic!

@yudi8204

Ай бұрын

@@MarcusFlemmings Maybe the "was" part is true.

Look man...I like your videos, but when the Sight & Sound (once serious and respected) turns into a meaningless excrement and puts meaningless, boredom/vomit inducing junk like Jeanne Dielman 🤢 (it is not a movie, it can hardly be considered as a video material) as the No1 movie of all times 🥴🤮🙄 (and not as a joke), it becomes not only irrelevant but an imperative to be avoided and forgotten!

@MarcusFlemmings

Ай бұрын

I mean...to be honest, I've never seen Jeanne Dielman and won't be seeing it ever in my life. It looks and sounds like absolute trash! So I agree ;-) but that's not relevant to this video! Thanks for the comment also!

IMDB is also the democratization of film by people that don’t have great taste or knowledge of film. The fact that Lawrence of Arabia is 100 and Vertigo is 102 invalidates the list completely. How on earth are the Green Mile, Forest Gump and the Prestige in the top 75…like I said the list is not great at all.

@ahorsewithnoname773

Ай бұрын

On a related note, Spider Man: Across the Spiderverse is currently sitting at #36 and Avengers: Infinity War at #64. They're entertaining but they're not Citizen Kane.

@peetypete13

Ай бұрын

@@ahorsewithnoname773 100%! Those Avengers movies don’t deserve to be anywhere near that list. They aren’t even close to the best Marvel movies.

@DanLyndon

Ай бұрын

You've made a decent point but soiled it by defending a fairly shallow popcorn flick like Vertigo as though it were a masterpiece. Great art requires depth, not just entertainment value. That's sort of the problem you're complaining about.

@peetypete13

Ай бұрын

@@DanLyndon a movie that is #2 on the BFI list and was previously #1 is a fairly shallow popcorn flick…sure bro cool story lol

@DanLyndon

Ай бұрын

​@@peetypete13 Why would you cite such an infamously moronic list to back up your take? Yes, obviously Vertigo lacks depth. Hitchcock, while technically an excellent filmmaker, was making lowest common denominator entertainment for the most part - although with some more flare and creativity than a lot of modern stuff, I'll grant you that. What you're seeing in BFI's list has more to do with his influence over the film industry as a powerful person and popular figure than anything to do with artistic merit.