Still out here makin bangers. great video man!

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

@Nabrashaa

3 жыл бұрын

bangers and mash!

Very interesting video! I have never been a huge achievement hunter, so I'd never given much thought to them, but there are a few games where I have gone for full achievements and was highly satisfied! One very small game this video reminds me of is Copy Kitty. I think it has great achievements that encourage engaging with all the modes of the game. One achievement is notably absent though: All of the missions in the Story Mode have an optional damage threshold to earn a star, but there is specifically no achievement for starring all levels, to not push players who wouldn't enjoy trying to perfect runs of levels unless that would already appeal to them intrinsically. Also really resonate with the Necrodancer observations. I put over 400 hours into the game (before the DLC released!) and never even got close to even unlocking the toughest challenges present.

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Admittedly, I've never heard of that game before, but what you're describing sounds like a perfect example of the kind of design I'm talking about in the second half of that section on challenge achievements. Thank you very much for the comment!

Honestly the DLC issue is in part down to storefronts simply not having a system to allow achievements to be specific to a DLC set. Which isn't necessarily a super easy problem to solve, but is at least possible. I think it's perfectly reasonable for devs and players to want a new bit of DLC to have its own achievements, it just sucks for every player that hasn't bought those DLCs.

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Several other commenters have pointed out that a separation of that kind (between base game completion and DLC completion) is present on Sony's recent consoles, and I think that's a great solution that I'd love to see spread farther.

There's a gag about achievements in the indie game Wandersong that I find funny. During the "Intermission" section of the game (between Acts 3 and 4), you briefly play as the game's antagonist, who's supposed to be an archetype "Hero" character, and during this segment of the game you're given achievements for doing LITERALLY anything, ranging from normal stuff like getting combos or killing a certain number of enemies to absurd things like jumping and pausing the game. Later on there's also an achievement that pops up when the antagonist catches the main characters off guard, almost like the game's announcing her presence to you. The game actually got into hot water with Steam over this joke, because people thought it was designed to artificially inflate user's achievements.

Nice graphs you got there

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Heh, thanks.

The only game I've 100%-ed is Overcooked co-op. It was fun to keep playing after we finished the main campaign to do the few remaining achievements. I liked that structure, where you get most of the achievements in-game. All the other games it feels overwhelming to go back and get the achievements... But now Ill keep my eye out for interesting looking achievements that might reveal fun game content, I hadnt thought of that before.

Discovering your content via your Dark Souls article has been pretty amazing because you like so many things I like (well aware this isn't something to pursue), more than any other creator or person

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Always nice to find like-minded people. If you like my Souls article, then, uh, without spoiling anything, you may want to keep an eye on this channel later this year . . .

I just recently got hooked on Spelunky 2, so this upload came at the perfect time for me. I'm always looking forward to your content, keep up the good work!

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

It's a great game. Thanks for your comment!

Was about to start livestreaming, but I saw this notification and now I'm here.. New Gemsbok Vid Pog

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Ah haha, sorry to interrupt.

@HobbesGaming

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheGemsbok Totally worth it lol

The thing about encouraging different new playstyles is very true and also implemented beaultifully in Spelunky 2. Just today, i realized that if i wanted the 1000000$ achievment, i would have to go aggro on the shopkeepers. Thing i usually never do, because i thought it was going to be a pain having to deal with them on every level. But this achievment really made me realize that it is not that bad, and actually, quite fun. I completed the achievment and now look foward to do more criminal runs, thing i am sure i would not do nearly as often, if it was not for the achievment.

Great video, thanks!

Keep up the good work!

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

I'll give that a shot. Thanks!

Super underrated channel. I wish you'll get much-much more attention.

@TheGemsbok

Жыл бұрын

Very kind of you to say! I'm currently hard at work on a new long-form FromSoft analysis video in the same style as my video on Dark Souls. Don't know whether it will succeed in bringing more attention to the channel, but if all goes as planned it will be published in about a month.

@VHenrik007

Жыл бұрын

@@TheGemsbok I'll be here waiting! Good luck!

really love your videos!

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

That's a very kind comment, thank you! Rest assured: although it's a slow process, I have every intention of making as many as I can.

Great video essay!

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

The data for achievements can really be fascinating. I finished 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim and due to the niche nature of the game and the easiness of the 100% achievement, it has a really large percentage of players who reach 100% completion. It looks like it pulls largely from the progression and optional challenges concepts you described.

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Interesting! I'd never heard of it before, but it seems to be very well-reviewed and its publishers are a couple big names. Between being a PS4 exclusive and releasing so close to the PS5 coming out, though, I can see why it has remained niche. Thanks for your comment.

Great video

how does this have so little views this is such a well put together video excellent job mate!

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Yeah, the video's pretty new and the channel's pretty small, so the view count inevitably starts out very low. I'm hoping it gets more attention in the coming weeks.

I’ve never cared about achievements and have never really gone out of my way to complete any game’s achievements. I’ve incidentally completed many close to 100% and then hunted down the last couple odd achievements I had missed. Things like Hollow Knight, Slay The Spire, and Into the Breach come to mind. Spelunky HD is another story completely though. The achievements in that game gave me something to strive for. I feel like the difficulty curve in that game is a lot more intense than many others. In my first run ever of Dead Cells I believe I got to like the second boss or something. In my first run of Spelunky I can’t imagine I even got to 1-2, not to mention the hundreds or maybe thousands of subsequent runs that also ended before 1-2. I initially sucked at that game a lot more than I do most games and I was determined to master it. It took me roughly 900 hours before I finally popped my last achievement and I was still just as in love with the game as I was at hour one. As soon as it’s released on Switch this summer you better believe I’ll be getting it again as well as it’s sequel and getting all the achievements in both. I hardly even play video games anymore but I will gladly make an exception for this game.

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

I can tell from the titles you list as exceptions here that you're a person with excellent taste in games. If you pushed through to 100% in Spelunky, then your enjoyment of the sequel is practically guaranteed.

@jamesbrincefield9879

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheGemsbok I plan on picking it up as soon as possible. My PS4 broke a few months before Spelunky 2 released and I don’t play video games enough anymore to justify getting a PS5 so I’m stuck waiting on the Switch port this July, which is fine with me anyway because I’ve only ever played Spelunky on a handheld. It’d feel weird to me on console.

100%ed spelunky 2 the other day after ~160 hours. felt good. nice video 👍

@TheGemsbok

2 жыл бұрын

Congratulations! That's no small feat. (And thank you, glad you enjoyed the video.)

I think the intent of that Hyper Light Drifter 1000 deaths achievement was probably for it to fall on the Achievements for Progression category, as in the player would probably naturally get to that death count while playing the game. I guess they didn't realise that A THOUSAND was bit too much, even for a hard game

@TheGemsbok

2 жыл бұрын

I think you're probably right! It has only become a 'challenge achievement' _because_ the number is so far off from a normal death count. Hard to understand why that wasn't fixed early on, though; seems like even the earliest playtesters could've helped them see that the number is off from a reasonable count . . . by at least 800.

I think the one thing i would amend to this video is that for steam, as long as a 100% the base game achievement exists, it's fine for dlc to add new achievements. (preferably with a 100% the game + dlc achievement). PS4 also separates base game from dlc for things like this, and even separates out multiple games in the spyro remastered trilogy for this reason. I think as long as these are separated well enough with their own full completion marks, there's no harm in adding dlc with new achievements, in fact it has been quite a draw for me to keep returning to Isaac after each new expansion.

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

That's an interesting prospect, which I admit I hadn't considered much. That definitely helps a lot, and the way you describe the system on the PS4 sounds like a great solution that I wish was ubiquitous. My only reservation about saying that completely solves the issue on Steam is that there's still just one progress bar per title there, so a true 100% is still being withheld from the player. As I mention in the caveat section, Isaac has gone its own way with achievements and I think its method works to its benefit, even into the DLCs. But in general, that trend remains undesirable for the reasons I mention in the video, and would still affect any player who lacks the willingness and/or ability to purchase all DLC for each of their games.

Great video! A few of your points have built in fixes with PlayStation trophies. Every game has a platinum showing all trophies earned in the base game, DLC have their own sub list and don't affect the platinum trophy, games are restricted to a maximum number of trophies so bloat isn't an issue and cheating trophies is nowhere near as much of an issue as on Steam. I game on both platforms but tend to ignore steam achievements but go out of my way on PlayStation

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Those all sound great to me! Like I imply in the intro, I stuck with Steam for the whole video in part because it has never had a system like the Trophy Pass program that Sony used to have (or the Gamerscore leaderboards and Microsoft Rewards on Xbox consoles), so there can be no way for people to construe my argument as being about extrinsic benefits that achievement and trophy systems have had at certain times on certain platforms. But I'd still be very glad to see separation of base game and expansion completion lists and enforcement of a maximum achievement count implemented on all achievement-bearing game portals.

this reminds me of the #1 worst achievement type i hate: win x number of things in multiplayer. because multiplayer will either have really good players if it is popular or no players if it is unpopular

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Those can certainly be a problem. But I went back and forth a few times about whether to directly discuss multiplayer-only achievements in this script. It’s a weird situation, because avoiding them entirely would mean that a developer has to bet that the multiplayer component of their project will be unpopular or objectionable or fail in some way, which doesn’t seem fair or entirely predictable. But if added, they *should* always be unlockable through offline single-player activity (like the deathmatch achievement in Spelunky 2, which is one of only 2 or 3 I don’t explicitly mention in the video). Ultimately, I decided that if multiplayer achievements are done poorly enough, then they fall under the purview of ‘asking the player to do something unrelated to the core gameplay that they would never otherwise want to do,’ which I discuss in the challenge and hidden element sections of the video. Anyway, thank you for the comment!

@legomeaker101potato

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheGemsbok true. tbh j am mostly talking about burnout and carmageddon which have achievements that are: meet with 8 players at a baseball field (highly specific) and beat 50 online events (just a pain in all ways)

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Oof, hate that. Tried to capture a little bit of that energy by mentioning the 'win over 100 games on certain maps' achievements from TF2.

I will say with Getting Over it With Bennet Foddy. The achievement to beat the game 50 times isnt much harder than the achievement to beat it once. My first completed run of Getting Over It took 26ish hours. My 2nd only took 13 or so hours. 3rd. Was around 6 or 7 hours and so forth. Till the 50th time I was beating it in about 10-15 minutes. I feel like you really have mastered the janky controls and physics at 50 completions and is an okay cutoff for most players who want 100%. I mean if you spent the time to beat the game once you are likely the kind of person who would probably get a kick out of trying to do it faster each time. Besides maybe progression achievements for making it to new areas like orange, snowman, bucket, etc. I cant really think of any other achievements you could have for the game. Maybe the easter egg in the game for Sexy Hiking but that would feel pointless. Maybe a replacement of times completed to time to complete. So that a 100% completion would be when you can get over the mountain in 25 minutes or less. Thats the best solution I can think of at least. Anyhow interesting discussion and I agree with everything else you said! I just hold Getting Over It very close to my heart (and its the only game I have 100% completed)

@TheGemsbok

2 жыл бұрын

Haha, fair enough! Your solution about replacing the completion goal with a time goal is a great suggestion that sounds far preferable to me. That would prevent busywork for those who increase in mastery sooner, while also feeling more like an impressive badge to display than one that simply indicates 50 climbs. And it would be an especially favorable fix if paired with your idea for a few progression achievements (so that the goal that is by far the hardest does not represent a third of the game’s overall completion). But it’s also worth pointing out that I deal harshly, elsewhere in this video, with achievements that simply require playing a game in its entirety multiple times in a row (even just two or three times). So, with that in mind, you could see why I might not look kindly on a game whose *only* achievements are for beating and repeatedly beating the game.

@Blaiset

2 жыл бұрын

​@@TheGemsbok Yeah after writing that and also just thinking on it some more. I can agree the achievements are flawed. I think my view of the achievements was based on what they meant to me rather than what they objectively represented. I came at the game from a speedrunning perspective which meant I was already intending on beating the game well over 50 times. So it felt more like a progressional system than it may have for most people. Thank you for the thoughtful reply! I watched a couple more of your videos and really enjoy your perspective and writing style.

16:37 Yes, game dev here.

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Whoa, welcome! Haha, I'm glad to hear it reached at least one.

Great video, but I still want to complain about Spelunky's HD 1000 deaths achievement 👀 I agree that the Spelunky games have very good achievements, but this one from the first game is the only one I still don't have on steam, partly because the game doesn't have cloud saves :( (and also because I played it on xbox first) But yeah 1000 deaths in Spelunky will happen at one point for a normal playthrough of the full game, as long as you play on the same save file, which apparently is far from being the case for Hyper Light Drifter. I also think the 50 wins in Getting Over It isn't that big of a deal. The issue is more that there isn't really other achievements. It's definitely aimed at the speedrunning community which was already pretty big even before the game was released on steam, and once you beat the game a few times, it becomes pretty easy to complete it in a relatively short amount of time. I also think it works for the joke. But I agree that the idea of beating a game multiple times for no other reason than an achievements (and a gold skin) isn't that engaging. And even if Getting Over It is a niche game, its achievements really don't do anything to motivate the player on a first playthought (which I think is fine, but in the spirit of the video, there's a clear imbalance on how its achievements are distributed). On that note I really like the graphs, I often look at achievements % out of curiosity (I'm not that big into achievement hunting, but I still like good achievements), but seeing how they're distributed between multiple games is really interesting.

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Fair enough! Technical difficulties can almost instantly turn a good achievement experience into a bad one. In fact, though you might not expect this from some of my remarks in the video, I wouldn't blame anyone for using a utility like SAM to unlock deserved achievements that were only denied to them by a bug or other technical issue. To me, that particular Spelunky HD achievement does feel like it was appropriately scaled to the game, since I played it exclusively on one platform and death is such a frequent part of the Spelunky experience. Hard to remember exactly, since it was so many years ago now, but I think I unlocked it *long* before unlocking Low Scorer. By contrast, Hyper Light Drifter is not a roguelike, so death is nowhere near as common. At the end of my first playthrough, I had fewer than 150 deaths. At the end of my New Game + playthrough, fewer than 50. And my third playthrough was the deathless run. Hence the farming I describe in the video, for the remaining 850+ in the first file. And thank you for mentioning the graphs! Those graphs took longer to create than any other aspect of this video. I tried something similar in the NecroDancer video, but I think I paired the graph there with too much text and muddied the impact.

Achievements (and mainly completionist tendencies) have sort of ruined the wonderment and simple enjoyment I had previously with games. Previously I played the game like devs intended, now I actively try to "go the other way" or break the game just to see what secrets are there and things like that. Moreover thanks to modern games (esp. Ubisoft ones), I also concentrated more on "completing checklists" too. It leads to repetitiveness and hence burnout.

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Hmm, interesting perspective. It's a weird situation, because I agree completely that achievement-like systems within games (as seen in Ubisoft open-world games) are exploitative, tedious, and problematic. But something about achievements themselves being separated from the game always feels like they give me an extra layer of decision-making that allows me to take or leave them---I go over many examples in this video of games that I've purposefully finished 100%, as well as games that I've purposefully not finished 100%. I guess it's the difference between a game being designed as a checklist of tasks, and being separately handed an optional checklist of things that can be done in a game. My only recommendations for avoiding burnout from such systems---what helps for me, at least---are two things: (1) try to only play games that have a high chance of respecting the player's time and effort (like highly acclaimed indie games of the past decade), and (2) sometimes play games on platforms with no community or online functionality (like through emulators or retro consoles) or which lack achievements and achievement-like design (like most linear AAA games on PC from over 10 years ago).

Great video, would love to know what you think of the Stanley Parable philosophy on achievements. :)

@TheGemsbok

Жыл бұрын

Although I'm not a fan of The Stanley Parable, I have no particular objection to how it handles achievements. It's clearly using them as part of its satire of conventional game design. It's not an approach I want to see a lot of games taking, but it serves the unique aims of that game.

So which of the games mentioned other than Spelunky do you like the implementation of achievements?

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

The full list of games I use as positive examples of excellent achievement implementation in this video includes: Spelunky, Spelunky 2, Slay the Spire, Celeste, Bastion, Transistor, Pyre, and Hades.

The achievement "Plays Well With Others" in Fortnite takes around 333hours (1000 missions at 20mins each). I got it during last year's lockdown wow that was a slog

@TheGemsbok

2 жыл бұрын

333 hours?! That's insane.

I finished my last achievement for spelunky 2 last night and got the platinum trophy on ps4. I'm proud of myself

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

You deserve that pride! I know for a fact that's quite a challenging thing to do.

Great vid! You mentioning the 30 sec tutorial achievement as a negative example in Spelunky 2 caught me off guard. I don't play many video games and usually don't care about achievements. But when I was flipping through the achievement list shortly after Spelunky 2's release I saw the 30 sec achievement and decided I wanted to get it. Took me a bit, probably 20-30 minutes, and I felt very accomplished. Now Spelunky 2 is probably the only game where I've gotten all achievements. (although I haven't gotten further than 7-66)

@TheGemsbok

Жыл бұрын

Well, I do only call it a '"small misstep" and also say it's "not very tough." Really, I was just trying to grant a minor 'theoretical imperfection' in my main example game, to show there's always room for improvement in something as finicky as achievement design. That said, congratulation on 100% and 7-66 in Spelunky 2! Those are huge and impressive accomplishments.

I agree with you completely, I hate games that make getting all achievements to hard and I think it takes away from the experience. I would say it is better to have a achievement that is to easy rather than almost impossible (like the coda achievement.)

For crypt of the necrodancer I don’t go for any achievements because Coda exists and I’m never going to finish an all zone run with him

So you think paid DLC should never have achievments?

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Another user pointed out that certain platforms, such as Sony's recent consoles, separate the completion tracking for DLCs and multi-game collections from the tracking for the base game. If a system like that were to be implemented on Steam, I would have no objection to every DLC having a set of achievements associated with it (hence including the exception for standalone expansions in the video). But in any situation where paid DLC shares a completion bar with the base game, that will remain my general stance, yes. Like I said in the video, though, it's incredibly common and, frankly, I doubt it's a practice that will ever go away---regardless of it being potentially harmful to frugal and lower-income completionists. Also, you might've notice that I included another caveat: for developers who have "an extremely good reason" to add them. Continuing the strategy I describe in the video for Isaac's achievements into its expansions, for instance, strikes me as a worthwhile justification for how blatantly and extensively it breaks the guideline.

@TheDosudude

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheGemsbok What stinks about Steam's otherwise nice achievement system is that when DLC gets added post-launch, it takes away your 100%. For example, I had fully completed Mark of the Ninja, which was fun and satisfying, but then when they released a DLC it took away my completion status. Whereas on Playstation that Platinum trophy is locked in once you earn it!

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

Well said. I am in total agreement with you about that being a problem on Steam, especially when the DLC in question must be purchased. It is true, though, that what you're describing is also an annoying issue (although, in my opinion, less impactful) even in situations where expansions and updates are distributed for free.

listen here gemsBOK CHOY - IN DEFENSE OF ROCKS AND BASEBALL CARDS YOU'RE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT. CAN'T WAIT FOR SPELUNKY 3 "EVEN MORE SPELUNKY TOO MUCH SPELUNKY PLEASE HAVE LESS SPELUNKY"

@TheGemsbok

3 жыл бұрын

You're in rare form today, Mr. Rickard.

i disagree with alot of points for example i find it very arbitrary to say having to play through new game + for an achievement is bad especially since 100% achievements are not intended for casual players but for completionists

@TheGemsbok

Жыл бұрын

Achievements simply for 'having to play through new game +' are not criticized in this video. Rather, two sources of possible tedium related to New Game + are criticized here: namely, restricting collectibles to later playthroughs, and requiring three or more consecutive playthroughs of a lengthy title on a single character.

@MINARDMael-gv9gb

Жыл бұрын

@@TheGemsbok i see, it makes more sense this way

I love the idea achievement hunting but most games are such a slog and are not fun. Why can't more games have interesting and rewarding achievements to get