I built my own speakers back in the 70's as a teenager. It was very popular building your own single driver speakers. You got a lot for your money. Many built horn cabinets. Mine were transmission line. Astec was the name of the driver, I think. My amplifier was a Quad 33 + 303. Fantastic sound!

I've heard this doppler distortion argument many times, but its effect is going to depend on the recording being played. If you had a purist recording made with a single pair of microphones, those microphones would be subject to the same issue, with their diaphragms moving over larger distances due to low frequency sound, and smaller faster movement from high frequency sounds. In this case the most accurate playback would be with a single driver that reproduces the same combination of frequencies. Of course many recordings are not made that way, and have different microphones picking up low frequencies like the bass guitar, while another microphone is picking up the cymbals. Here the doppler argument has more validity.

@butstough

2 жыл бұрын

except that the microphone diaphragm is moving many orders of magnitude slower and shorter distances than a large full range driver, ergo the doppler effect is proportionally less

Doppler distortion ! Makes total sense. Thanks for that explanation.

There are trade-offs left,right and centre with all of the different speakers designs (no pun intended!).Happy listening.

absolutely fascinating about the doppler issue. never thought about it. 43-way speakers it is then!

That woofer setup you're using as an example looks suspiciously like my Parts Express/Home Depot speakers

Such a good explanation!

Man, you mention crossovers being the problem, we here at Budget Audiophile know this all too well! We're super inspired by the IRSV and want to design and build a set for ourselves to see just what goes into it all! The design, placement and driver selection . . .that's the easy bit. Building the enclosures and setting up amplification . . .a CINCH! The crossovers . . .that's where we're looking at our maths and charts with our heads constantly being scratched! This is going to be a monster but hopefully one well worth it!

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

Here is the crossover for the three way Philips speakers I built back in the 70s: www.sturmsoft.com/audio/3_way_passive_Xover.png I wanted to build an active crossover like this: www.sturmsoft.com/audio/Active_X-over.png I lacked the funds at the time. Not for the crossover, but the extra amps. A friend of mine with more money and time on his hands did and the results were well worth it. Neither of these designs are mine BTW. They appeared in the now defunct Australian magazine _Electronics Today_ .

Compromise: Hope shakes hands with science and economics. Great definition of engineering, Paul!!!

Reminds me of badly crossoverd car full range speakers, i can hear that effect the most when its a paper type woofer

Trying some cheap full range wild burrow (betsy baffel) single driver speakers and been sorta shocked how well those sound even without much of a cabinet. Going to try them in a open baffle design. I think even decware uses these in a pair of their speakers they sell. Very efficient, no crossover and they love low wattage single ended class a amps or class a tube amps😀

Great video. A single driver solution is great for DIY. If you get a good driver, there is no knowledge needed for box design or crossovers. A simple open baffle with hipass filter and a small baffle can be built to handle 100Hz and up. It will be very good. Add a good sub for low range and you have a pretty decent system that anyone can build on a budget. Audio Nivana will supply a decent driver for a few hundred plus another $100 for a good capacitor for the high pass filter and it's done. Then a Rel sub and you are done. It will never be a PS Audio or Magico, but it's a different market.

What you say Paul makes more sense then your collega with the beautiful audiophile name (-; Every speaker is still a compromise because of scientific rules. Every speaker sounds different and that is bad. That means that maybe one of them is a good speaker. Engineers still can't make a perfect speaker. Already 40 years busy with hifi and a pro (acoustical)musician, for me the Magenepan 3-series is a very good and affordable speaker. I have written this often. Magnepan is allowed to give me a pair for my birthday on december 30st (-:

Why don’t we see more double driver headphones? Is the Doppler effect eliminated or mitigated because of the short distance between the driver and the ear?

@carlosoliveira-rc2xt

3 жыл бұрын

The driver hardly moves.

Doppler can be reduced by having a very large surface area on the driver so it doesn't have to move far to move a lot of air, but this leads to another problem, which is that the speaker will become extremely directional in higher frequency ranges (this is, in my opinion, the strongest argument for a multi driver speaker)... there is little which can be done about the poor dispersion aside from fancy electronic tricks sometimes employed in electrostatic speakers (such as driving only the center of the panel with full range audio)

@Mikexception

2 жыл бұрын

The aim of big size driver is to drive with it possibly biggest mass of air and to lower resonance of driver due to own membrane big mass. No many try to fight for it it with acoustic system - it works easy with transmission lines where inner air mass is fairy coupled with driver creating also bigger mass Unfortunately transmission lines should not to be 100% damped and that is why they do not maintain enough EQ. It can be done not by size of driver but also in specialy aligned acoustic system which in my opinion is best way Relatvly small speaker I did works with 2 single drivers in two separate boxes total size 60x25cm x 20 cm which are connected in serial and sound in low range adequate to biggest I ever heard (in N.Orlaens LA) . Bad side is that they consume together max power 6 watts and I think hardly can in 25 sqm room make above 90dB. Good side that they sound like wideranges - all heard and very natural. But no strange - I aligned them for me in best way .

The current Quad ESL can be considered as a crossoverlesss full range driver speaker, but it has compromises, too.

I see a lot of KZreadrs building single driver transmission line speakers. The guy on Tech Ingredients built a pretty good set with Tangban drivers. While they are good, this type of speaker is still very hard to get right without sound artifacts and having good range

@lynnpoole7830

4 жыл бұрын

Are you referring to the ''World's Second Best Speakers''? I have actually built a pair of those. They are Voigt design speakers which are a cross between a transmission line and back loaded horn. I love them.

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

@@lynnpoole7830 Nice to know I'm on the right track :-) The Tang Band drivers have a Qts of 0.27 which seems a little low for a TL. The SEAS Exotic X1 has a Qts 0.44 and also a free air resonance of 32 Hz compared to the Tang Band's 42 Hz. It made me smile when he says the Tang Band is expensive. The SEAS are several times the price. Also a little odd when he says you can just drop in a cheaper driver than the Tang Band and made me wonder if he's done the sums. I'm going to have to check if he's used Martin King's formulae. I love the shit-eating grin on his face at the end of his video :-)

@carlitomelon4610

4 жыл бұрын

Love my Rega Naos transmission lines. Rega said they don't use a crossover to roll off the woofer, so unplugging the tweeter (biwire-cable) demonstrates a single driver. I was checking out the 8in Tangbands and wondering how they'd work in a similar cabinet. Even without a crossover you still need to compensate for baffle step... PS : it's amazing how many instruments disappeared on unplugging the tweeter. That simple test put me off the single driver track.

@codezero6023

4 жыл бұрын

Lynn Poole The first time I saw that video I thought he was a professional audiophile speaker builder. You tube sound did no justice to what they probably sounded like during the demo

I have a pair of one driver bookshelf speakers that do give the highs and lows at the same time to . I was always wondering how the it does the highs. there made by Alo Audio Pandas what there called made of bamboo wood. good video. Hearing vocals very clear hearing a full blown orchestra or rock concert maybe a different story to that.

@Justwantahover

3 жыл бұрын

You can make any full range driver have highs. Make a foil shape like a leaf shape (the size of a grain of rice). Tedious! The foil will have pointed ends. Glue one end to the dust cap on the driver. Maybe even press the dust cap in and then glue it. Highs sound crazy and sound great with stinging cymbals just like tweeters.

Paul - in a back-loaded horn, given the efficiency assist by the acoustic chamber, would you expect lower Doppler distortion? From my understanding, the excursion of the driver is minimized (at a given volume output compared to a ported or sealed enclosure) and I imagine this keeps the distortion lower. Thanks for the video- always enjoyable.

@willemwallaby

3 жыл бұрын

This is a fact ignored by most if not all single driver opponents. A properly designed BLH type enclosure reduces cone excursion to such a significant degree that Doppler distortion is essentially not worth mentioning. Such enclosures are large and expensive, many times the size of a typical monkey coffin, which is another single driver trade off. Me, I have both types of loudspeakers- they both do things the other cannot, it’s simply a matter of what I feel like listening to with a given type of music.

@thomasschafer7268

2 жыл бұрын

Yes. Use fostex. BLH.😆😆😆

I often wonder what kind of Doppler interference or distortion occurs with those Kef Uni Q drivers .. while the mid bass cone doesn't radiate HF energy .. it DOES however provide a moving horn guide to the coaxial tweeter

@jimolson9671

4 жыл бұрын

All I can say is I love my reference three speakers

@butstough

2 жыл бұрын

oof. very interesting point. probably has terrible effects

Im trying to hear what the doppler distortion might sounds like, i have a pair of philips ad1255/m7 12inch speakers. I still can't figure out what this distortion is.

You made comment about the doppler issue of single driver systems. But what issues do you run into with coaxial drivers? Won't the cone act as a waveguide for the tweeter? How will the movement of the cone-waveguide affect the tweeter and do you use a different cone shape than you might for a regular driver?

@lynnpoole7830

4 жыл бұрын

Interesting, one would think that the woofer cone would act like a horn in relation to the tweeter.

@walterbartek6830

4 жыл бұрын

@@lynnpoole7830 I once read someone making a comment about it but have never found much actual discussion or testing of if before.

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

@@lynnpoole7830 Every tweeter I have owned had a sealed back so didn't radiate sound to the rear. Best tweeter I ever heard though was omnidirectional. My friend glued piezo transducers to the top and bottom of a celluloid ping-pong ball. The only problem was every so often one of the piezo devices would explode.

well: the bose 401 I believe is the model comes to mind Not a bad little speaker from what I read although Iv never owned or listened to one personally But, I don't see why it wouldn't work if you have an EQ in the loop or in sofware

How many voice boxes do you have and what frequencies is it limited to?

@Mikexception

2 жыл бұрын

I did two both full range (30- 20 kHz)+(25-20kHz ) every with different size speakers and different idea of acoustic in both channels. I prooven fy own standards few times that two full size create unusual capability.

What he is saying about the woofer in the video and high freq makes perfect sense but with a small speaker that is capable of decent mid/high freq, the issue becomes more about bass response and subsequent cabinet design to produce it. I think he should have addressed the common single driver designs that utilize the (approximately) 4" speaker/tuned cabinet as opposed to his example with the relatively large driver as single speaker.

The KEF LS50's are amazing little speakers. They look ridiculously tiny and yet give the impression of serious bass where you're thinking, "they can't really do that, where's the small subwoofer". I found they needed a serious amplifier and very solid stands. I first had a weaker amp and stands that rocked very slightly and the bass lost focus. Swapping for a more seriously powerfull amp and rock solid stands, the difference was incredible down low. Up to a point. With only a 5 and a bit inch woofer rock drums sounded occasionally like a toy drum. They did most other stuff at a level most other speakers can only dream about but damn, I hated the drums when playing at higher volumes. I ended up selling them and buying ATC SCM40's which are not quite as revealing middle to upper as the LS50 but a bit better overall package but given the price difference, I'm not that surprised.

@larryhoffman7471

4 жыл бұрын

Captain Win Did you try adding a sub? Rather than giving up on a set of speakers you clearly enjoyed, you could have added a quality sub and very possibly had the best of both worlds.

Sound Lab U1 only single driver speaker I can live with, I can get through the weekend with a Martin Logan CLSz :)...

My DCM TF600's are coaxial with transmission line bass. Setup properly these image like crazy and give you a feeling like the performance is live in the room. Any other speaker I've had has been a two or three way setup. None have imaged as well. But sounded good in other ways. Like Paul said .... compromises.

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

Coaxial is 2 way. Many Tannoys use this arrangement.

@michellevey9608

18 сағат бұрын

I have these speakers. They're really good.

I think super tweeter with a sharp crossover is a necessity .. In that case some of them really sound lovely. Subwoofer is optional (but nice.. ) An active one .. In fact they make great wide - soft open midranges That is what they are .. Visation BG 200 Diatone P610 .. lovely Just take the extra burden from them and they shine..

Check out CUBE Audio's Nenuphar 10" or 8" Mini great new technology for a single driver speaker which has perfect phase and are good close to a wall. They don't have chest thumping bass but who needs that in an apartment or small to medium sized room. As Paul says no problematic crossovers in a single driver speaker.

It's all compromise. A crossover compromises the sound more than using just a single driver. Most multi-driver speakers have the crossover slap bang in the middle of the midrange where the ear is most sensitive to the hideous phase anomalies the crossover introduces. It is much better to use a single wide bandwidth driver with no crossover to cover the entire range from 80-100hz and up and then fill the bottom end with a subwoofer (or two). The ear is much less sensitive to phase anomalies in the bass so a much more coherent sound is produced. Every time I visit a hifi show I'm always much more drawn to those speakers using a single driver. I can almost always hear the crossover in multiway speakers. My current speakers are diy and use the excellent Jordan eikona 2 drivers. Another advantage of a single driver is cost. There is no way I could have purchased two mid-bass drivers, two tweeters and crossovers of the same quality for the same price.

@Luke-qs2cg

2 жыл бұрын

This, is why I build 3 and 4 way full range systems. A straight up subwoofer than plays up to maybe 100-160hz, a wide band driver that can play up to 4 or 5k, and a ribbon tweeter to play the rest. The crossovers used here mean that the most sound, and the critical range, is all taken care of by a single driver. And with a pretty steep cross between the wide band and tweet, you get minimal issues in the cross region, and still very wide dispersion.

@nathanevans6277

2 жыл бұрын

@@Luke-qs2cg That is a very sound approach to loudspeaker design. My previous speakers used wide band drivers to cover the range from 120hz to 4.5khz, exactly in the range you suggested. I used a soft dome tweeter. In retrospect a ring radiator or ribbon would have been a better choice. I'm currently using Jordan Eikona II drivers which really don't need anything extra up top. I'm using them in sealed cabinets so they cover from around 85hz, the bottom end filled in with a sub, hopefully to be two soon.

But I think cube audio solved most of the problems it is a completely revolutionary driver and horn loaded cabinet, from the ground up even the Spider, and have limited the Doppler effect they talked about it in their journals. That is the best full range drivers on the market

@lynnpoole7830

4 жыл бұрын

Agreed.

I drink the widebander koolaide. I had RETHMs which I dearly loved. Now I have Cube Audio Nenuphars which are my end game speaker. If this sort of blasphemy suits you The Nenuphar is a *Grail* product.

@lynnpoole7830

4 жыл бұрын

Those are some seriously awesome speakers. Nelson Pass uses those drivers in a DIY speaker at his lab/listening room. Full range no crossover. Keep it quiet that they have multiple whizzer cones and have serious deep bass. LOL.

@michaelrubey6155

4 жыл бұрын

Lynn Poole Yes! My Nenuphar are driven by First Watt SIT3, then The Truth linestage. I can't even believe this rig found its way into my house. There were only 3 SIT3 left in the US when I was able to purchase mine. Lucky or blessed by the audio gods. Then Ed Schillings 'The Truth'. It is everything people say........an amazing device.

@alexiheaka6128

3 жыл бұрын

I wonder how the Cube sound in an Open Baffle. Any thoughts?

Those points are valid......But for me it's more impressive to be able to get excellent quality sound from a single driver with no crossover.....the driver has to be well design and the enclosure or cabinet as well.....open baffle is another quite impressive design that can include single driver or multi driver designs that work excellent.....costs are somehow high on these concepts but the engineering behind them is admirable..... Pearl Accoustics and Fibhorn are brands with Single driver designs that as per reviews offer excellent quality performance.....

Did you coin that phrase, "The perfect solution is the perfect compromise"? I love that. It sums up better what I've been telling people for 30 years which is, "There is no such thing as perfection but there is such thing as 'really damn good'."

@Mikexception

2 жыл бұрын

I proven that there is something like if I can't complain then I there are no rasons for development .

I'm old enough not to need a fourth order Beryllium tweeter and wise enough not to want a crossover.

@carlosoliveira-rc2xt

3 жыл бұрын

Best speakers in the world have crossovers. Most speakers in the world have crossovers. Need I say more?

Reference 3a decapo's have no crossover.I love them.

@jimolson9671

4 жыл бұрын

I love my KEF Reference 3’s!

For my ears single driver speakers play acoustic tracks and some styles of jazz rather well (with a tube amp). Beyond that, good luck. As Paul suggests they have their own inherent issues. Thanks but I will keep my 2-ways and solid state amps.

Single driver is great for simpler music, like solos or vocals with one or two guitars at low to medium volumes. Especially great with SET tube amps. Once the music gets complex though, you start hearing its limitations.

@Frisenette

4 жыл бұрын

Just add more or bigger drivers.

JVC made some of the best full-range drivers in HiFi world, I was sceptic to but when first time have one in my system - FS-7000 - could not believe how good sound was, in any case I prefer 3-way speakers over 2-way, for me 3-way or full-range.

@Justwantahover

3 жыл бұрын

Notice how the piano sounds better on single driver speakers. On two ways the piano sounds broken.

Single full range driver speakers often aren’t just considered in context of ‘just the speakers’. Single full range speakers are often favourable as part of a system, when you have simpler, generally low powered amplifiers that have simpler circuitry with fewer components between the input and the output of the amp. Complicated multiway speakers generally need amplifiers with more complicated circuitry to generate the higher power/higher current needed to drive them sufficiently for them to sound ‘alive’ and at their best. If you need to fill a large room with high volume sound a multiway speaker is probably the way to go. In a smaller room, sitting closer to the speakers, often less is more. Every system - source/amp/speakers should be considered in context of the room you’re in, the music you like and how loud you like it. It’s all a trade off of compromises.

The draw of a single driver is that it is the closest thing to a point source we can make. A point source is the ideal speaker. For years I used a pair of Altec 755a "full range" drivers in a one way system. The imaging and coherence was wonderful, but full range meant 70hz to 13000hz. I actually missed the treble more than the bass. In the early '90s I came very close to buying a pair of speakers made by Vision Acoustics. I was a SEAS 8" woofer with a Magnavox piezo tweeter bonded to the woofer cone so that it moved with the woofer, making it the closest thing to a full range point source speaker ever made. They limited the doppler effect by limiting the travel of the woofer, mounting it in an air suspension box. Range was about 40hz to 20khz. The limited travel, while doing a pretty good job of eliminating doppler, was ultimately why I rejected it, because when the music got big the speaker could not follow. That, and it was $2,000 in 1991. What it did that I so loved was image like no other speaker I had ever heard before or since. I was talking about this speaker a year or so ago, and while doing research, I found a pair for sale. I bought them, $200 2018 dollars instead of $2,000 1991 dollars so I figured I could splurge. Yes, the imaging is still uncanny, but they have the smallest sweet spot of any speaker around. They have a tonal problem I don't remember from years back, maybe the Audio Research tubes I was using back then was mellowing them out, and while they have pretty good bass, they still do have that dynamics problem that ultimately caused me to reject them. And if you play Billie Eilish on them you WILL hear the doppler distortion, something she even adds herself on occasion. Oh, but that image! A single, spherical wavefront, emanating from the speaker--that is why people like single driver systems.

@leomignonneau1765

4 жыл бұрын

Fascinating observation, Billie Eilish though doesn't produce, mix/master her songs. Somebody with higher knowledge does.

@johnlebeau5471

4 жыл бұрын

Leo Mignonneau Billie Eilish has copious amounts of bass under her much higher frequency voice. That is what causes the Doppler. When it is intentional, it is a bit of color that is added for interest. Her recordings are in and out of distortion almost constantly. That’s not a mistake, it is a signature. It adds interest to her music and I did not mean to imply it was there because of incompetence.

@johnlebeau5471

4 жыл бұрын

@@leomignonneau1765 I know it has been a while, but I just found out that Billie Eilish's songs have all been recorded and mixed in her brother's bedroom in her parent's house. Her brother Finneas O'Connell, 21, is the higher knowledge in her music. The two are a pair and have complete control over their music. She would probably not be where she is without Finneas. By the way, her full name is Billie Eilish Pirate Baird O'Connell. Yes, really.

Bose speakers with 4.5 inch full range driver has treble, but not the most refined sweet treble. In measurement, there is some anomaly in 7 - 13 kHz. In non-Bose dynamic full-range driver speakers measured in Stereophile, the anomaly in treble is worse.

There have been quite a handful out there, such as the 901, one ohm walsh model, a specific magnepan, and even EPI microtower. On a smaller scale, many KLH table radio are still around. Of the various systems I've built, single-driver are not the best for SPL efficiency.

@Mikexception

2 жыл бұрын

My standard is radio made in 1939 which with old widness of IF band +/- 7khz and exceptional 22 cm single driver which I must admit was never beaten by my constructions at frequencies above 100 Hz was never beaten by my constructions Because it is open back acoustic anyway I account it to very rare IF solution with 4 selctivity bands to choose. I present it here on YT.

The real reason so many DIYers prefer single-driver systems: less soldering! [ducks, runs for cover]

@Mikexception

2 жыл бұрын

I started my speaker adventure with one driver speaker in box size 25cm by 18 cm after year I made pair two driver 60x 20 cm then 3driver 30x 50 cm then 4 driver 130x 30 x 45 cm then 3 drivers 120x25x 25 (in few pairs offered for money) then again 2 way 60x25x35 then two box single drivers plus tweeters size 160x30 x25 then pair of one driver 30x 45x 20 and slowly I finished with one driver box size 22x18x 13 cm plus one driver in second i box 35x 30x 20 cm All with covers and grids. Just to mention about 50% of hand works And hopefully with the last i am at last happy - I think I made it. I will never go back to multiway speakers for last are 8x smaller than biggest I ever did and sound better than they sounded. Ha ha - less soldering :)..

Infinity RSa's uses the woofer as bass and midrange. They just fire out of phase of each tone. You should know that Paul. lol. Coaxial speakers have been around since the 6X9 car speaker. nothing new there.

No crossover with a fullrange single driver but a baffle step correction circuit is usually needed ( a cap and coil) to balance out the bass and treble.

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

Do you think there might be a reason the SEAS Exotic 8 inch full-range driver costs $US869.60? I intend to find out. I must say I very much enjoy my two way TL except in the crossover region. The first three-way I built had 25 components in the crossover. In many ways I preferred my Richard Allan 8 inch twin cone speakers. Less bass and treble, but immaculate mid-range. I had read of using a 10 uF capacitor, 2 mH choke and a 22 Ohm pot in parallel to lower mid-range response but never got around tuit.

@lynnpoole7830

4 жыл бұрын

@@jonathansturm4163 Wow, those Seas should be awesome!

Feastrex make a full range driver that costs 35 grand each. But they still have the Doppler problem. They are field core drivers and I wonder how they limit the excursions and still have bass good enough to warrant the price (since these companies seem to be "purists" with the point source bit) and don't seem to recommend subs or extra woofers. I have modified 4" FR drivers acoustically mounted differently (half out of the box) and an extra woofer. The bass isn't as critical for point source and I use 68 mf caps on the FR drivers to limit the excursions. They are $20 FR drivers with terrible bass response (being so cheap) but great cos they are already limited in excursion before I even add the cap. lol The advantages with the non point source bottom end are well worth the compromise. Better bass cos of the woofer, better treble and med cos the FR cone is way more "still".

@SuperMadpom

3 жыл бұрын

They are used in horn speakers so minimum excusion needed.

I'm not convinced about Doppler distortion. The relative change in distance (that causes Doppler) from the ear to the driver is miniscule & headphones would be the worst offender? I see a coaxial driver with a tweeter in the woofer throat as a bigger problem. The tweeter 'sees' a structure, the throat to cone physical transition, that is constantly changing & there's also a chance of air turbulance (a nonlinearity) due to the transition unless that interface is well designed. The KEF Uni-Q driver is in its 12th generation, that speaks volumes about the difficulty, pun intended. The reason why single driver designs are limited to 5-6" max dia is the delicate balance between low freq pistonic & high freq controlled resonance cone behaviour; when trying to meet frequency response, distortion & loudness design goals. Cheers!

When I want one driver listening. I use a very broken in PA driver magnet out, in a shallow box. Ported. It transcends from 60hz to 8khz. This woofer shall be the; Electro Voice DL15x Red Cap Version. There is nothing like it. It will bring your house to its knees. Thats why Its outside in the wind. 🏄

@phonebackup8132

4 жыл бұрын

Try a EV sp8. In the right cabinet it can give you 60hz to 12khz.

@SJMessinwithBoats

4 жыл бұрын

@Phone Backup. Hi, This i will look at!

If someone can make super stiff cone and still super light weight. You will get a high quality full range. Yes it will produce Doppler distortion as well.

@jonathanginofilippi

Жыл бұрын

Carbon fiber

but what about headphones ? they are full range speakers? does they have the same problems as normal full range speaker?

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

With headphones you are listening near-field so bass and treble are enhanced. You can listen to speakers near-field too which is what I did with my AR bookshelf speakers in the 1970s. I called them my nearphones.

@nebulous962

4 жыл бұрын

@@jonathansturm4163 oh ok :)

@rakeshmahindrakar8866

4 жыл бұрын

@@jonathansturm4163 nearphones is good name. I experimented the same and I must say. Bass was awesome..!

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

@@rakeshmahindrakar8866 It was when I discovered sound stage. Didn't know until recently that it had a name :-)

@franny231123DMT

4 жыл бұрын

i swear i can hear phase distortion in sub freqs on headphones coz linear EQ

@ Paul Mc Gowan - Paul, I'm an Advocate of the cohesive nature of "single driver" Loudspeakers … Remember, there was a time during the late1960s into the '70s, where especially some Japanese Manufacturers; Pioneer, Sansui, and 'Coral'; had "way over, the top" 5 & 7-way systems. Yes, reminiscent of some the current high priced "IEMs" ! Ironically Coral, as well as Fostex / 'Foster' still make a couple of famous "full range" cone drivers ! My suggestion is; that Those Single Driver systems, should be used as "building blocks", (Not unlike "mini - monitors", such as BBC - LS3/5a 's and "the like") to then add Subs and perhaps later, a "super tweeter". But I do have a Caveat on adding a "super tweeter"; that may seem counter - intuitive. Rather than just sit It on Top of the "full -range" enclosure; close to the Front Baffle facing Front. Place that "super tweeter", closer to the Back Panel -facing Backwards. Thus emulating a very successful "entry level" speaker design, from Arnie Nudell ; back in the mid 1970's - the Infinity '2001'. A 2nd Tweeter, on the Back Panel; was set at a Higher Frequency; than the same Type, on the Front Baffle. 1st, that eliminates "Comb Filtering", and Secondly, It adds some "air" or Ambience. But, Not so exaggerated as the early designs from "Doctor Bose and His Lab" ! I think that type of set - up; would work, for many.

@lynnpoole7830

4 жыл бұрын

I read an article recently where the designer said a super tweeter pointing up was the optimum position. Fostex makes several full range drivers and are usually paired with back loaded horns. I have a pair of speakers with 8 inch Fostex fullrange drivers and yes they sound best with my Martin Logan sub.

@RoaroftheTiger

4 жыл бұрын

@@lynnpoole7830 ok … that may work, in some rooms (rarely does "one size, fit all" ! ) But most certainly, when dealing with a "box enclosure", the "Added Tweeter", rarely if ever, should it face forward. If the task is to "up grade", a let's say, a Dalhquist DQ - 10 or another with small / separate - independent baffles are certainly, one exception.

@lynnpoole7830

4 жыл бұрын

This might be of interest to you. kzread.info/dash/bejne/fIh2o9pyqJjMhbg.html

@RoaroftheTiger

4 жыл бұрын

@@lynnpoole7830 (& @Paul McGowan) - Lynn, How interesting ( funny ?) that You point me to the very post on KZread; where I got my suggestion. And where I responded with my same example - Arnie Nudell's - Infinity '2001'. Perhaps, both of Our responses are valid. As the Host of 'New Record Day' - Danny, gave me a

Just like one membrane in recording microphone - one way speaker is the right way to go. Only one problem - we dont have enough good speaker technology.

@jareknowak8712

4 жыл бұрын

Manufacturers are wasting time on developing DSP, active x-overs instead of thinking about the biggest problem in audio, something that gives biggest distirtion - speakers.

@RennieAsh

4 жыл бұрын

In a way those active systems may help reduce driver distortion. I’d definitely like to see some new driver technology however

@Mikexception

2 жыл бұрын

In my opinion we have good enough drivers but most manufacturers put too much importance to quality of driver while they should think deeper on box behaviour It is not the rigidity and weight that make perfection but air inside the box. It is suposed to be like screen on which we throw colour photos maximum refelction , max white and no stains Driver is only projector

@jareknowak8712

2 жыл бұрын

@@Mikexception I think that if the speakers were so perfect, they would work perfectly in infinite baffle. We dont have such speakers.

@Mikexception

2 жыл бұрын

@@jareknowak8712 Just treat it as my free advice which I tested by myself with positive outcome. Unfair that people complain about classic drivers. In my opinion classic widerange drivers are absolutly amazing construction which we should only to let show their best. And it takes long experience and ideas

"Single driver speakers don't have crossovers" Don't tell Bose that, theirs do..!!

@Justwantahover

4 жыл бұрын

On full range drivers, they aren't crossovers, they are crossover filters. He was on about that you don't need anything on a single driver (even though for most it may be better). With 2-ways you at least need a cap on the tweeter otherwise you will blow the tweeter. And you should really have an inductor on the woofer to stop the treble from going into the woofer and making the tweeter have less output. But you don't need the inductor, it's just better to have one. But you do require a cap on the tweeter. That is a crossover (the simplest).

bose have been doing this since the 70s, they just add a DSP circuit, job done.

Another nasty thing about single drivers is the tendency to beam high frequencies. Whizzer cones help a little, but Doppler effects are still prevalent. And if you think phase shifts are eliminated, think again.

@Justwantahover

3 жыл бұрын

Horn speakers are even worse for that. Dome tweeters disperse well. I mount my FR drivers half out of the box, with a gap between the driver and the speakers hole. More of a dipole sound helps dispersion. And more holographic. But you have to make a bass vent out of the speaker hole first, otherwise it will have severe resonance and sound shocking.

Paul, you mentioned that multi driver speakers have crossovers. You are incorrect with that blanket statement. Anthony Gallo acoustics are able to pull off multi driver with no crossovers.

@RennieAsh

4 жыл бұрын

Ryan Schipp I think the bass driver has an inductor. But nothing otherwise :) They sounded pretty good for the short time I got to listen

@thatboyneedssomemilkholemd819

Жыл бұрын

Not possible!!! One of those drivers would totally mess up, if trying to play it’s counterparts frequencies.

@ryanschipp8513

Жыл бұрын

@@thatboyneedssomemilkholemd819 Do your research!!! Before yelling. This is a quote from a professional reviewer on Gallo speakers....in particular the Gallo Classico CL-4. "Like other Gallo speakers, the CL-4 uses no crossover network. Crossover is achieved solely through the driver and enclosure design, so no electronic crossover is necessary."

@thatboyneedssomemilkholemd819

Жыл бұрын

@@ryanschipp8513 Wasn’t even yelling lmaoooo. It’s just not possible to have a multi-way speaker that’s not using a crossover. A tweeter, woofer, or sub trying to play “down low” or “up high” without crossover, just doesn’t work without blowing either one. One supposed “professional reviewer” claiming that for a speaker, ain’t gonna change the generality.

@ryanschipp8513

Жыл бұрын

@@thatboyneedssomemilkholemd819 read what he wrote. You learn something new everyday. Is possible you just haven't discovered it yet until now. It's clear as day in his words. Probably 98% of speaker manufacturers use a crossover but there is a way to not use one also.

So I am listening to this on my iPhone via the built in speaker and at 4:56 Paul says, “engineering is always a series of compromises”. In true Siri fashion, she stops the video and says, “here is what I found on compromises.” Apparently my iPhone thinks “series” and “Siri” are one and the same. Ha!

@doowopper1951

4 жыл бұрын

My iPad did the same thing.

Agree 100% - although I should not even say that, because it's not a matter of opinion, you are stating the facts in this video, and many people should listen and learn. Single driver speakers are good, as long as you only listen to solo saxophone or perhaps solo human voice. For any other more complicated use, they fail horribly. People give loads of money to buy these contraptions, and then condition themselves into believing they sound good. They don't. It's Physics, it's not a matter of opinion.

What about transmission line speakers? They use a single driver. Not necessarily for me, but I’ve always found them to be very interesting in how if designed correctly, they can make so much low end.

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

Nick, TLs are not limited to single driver. Mine have two woofer and a tweeter in MTM (D'Apollito) config. Low end is wonderful. Mine roll off @ ~30 Hz. The subs I supposedly needed rolled off @ 40 Hz. Ya gotta laugh :-)

@NickP333

4 жыл бұрын

I should’ve written what I meant, which was some of them some of them. I know they’re not limited to a single driver. The pair that impressed me did though. Ha! That’s funny about the spkr vs the subs rolling off in those spots. Mine are also a D’Apollito design too, but with 3 tweeters. They’re Tekton Pendragons that supposedly go from 20Hz - 30kHz, but I’ve never measured them, so I don’t know the full truth of the matter. lol

@NickP333

4 жыл бұрын

Did you build yours?

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

@@NickP333 There's a considerable amount of skulduggery behind many quoted numbers. That's why I let my ears be my guide. Too many commentards here who think they have some exclusive handle on The Truth. The truth is we are all different; different needs, different tastes...

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

@@NickP333 Sorta kinda. I purchased them as a kit. It took me about three hours to assemble them for a cost saving of ~$AU300 in 2000.

I would have liked you to speak to what single driver speakers do well. You seem to present it as a one-sided argument rather than discussing the trade offs. What do single driver speakers do well or are you implying that there are no good single driver speakers?

@thatboyneedssomemilkholemd819

Жыл бұрын

Usually midrange is where it’s at it’s very best, and you don’t have to worry about crossovers, since it’s using a single driver. Negatives are can’t extend far into the treble (most of the times) prone to distortion, can’t really extend far into the bass (again most of the times) it’s just more negatives than it is positives for a single driver, but it can sound good depending on what kind of music you play. Simple tracks gonna sound good to great, once things start getting complex, you may have some problems on your hands though.

what does it mean when a speaker is being called full-range speaker but only with a single driver?

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

@Thom Moore That's utter horseshit! There are ever so many owners of Magnepans and Quad ESLs who would disagree with you. I was recently offered a pair of full range ESS from Eastern Europe for ~$AU17,000 (~$US11,500) and had I the room and money would have purchased them within a heartbeat.

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

@Thom Moore Soltanus Acoustics proudly presents the world’s first crossoverless multipanel electrostatic loudspeaker. Frequency Response: 40-20.000 Hz ± 3dB.

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

@Thom Moore My bad. I thought that was the ESL I was being offered a year ago. The email is long ago deleted. Here's an ESL's specs as measured by John Atkinson: www.stereophile.com/content/audiostatic-es-100-loudspeaker-measurements They are the speakers used for monitoring Philips Classics Recordings.

@willemwallaby

3 жыл бұрын

They are more properly called “wide banders”. But some truly cover the entire audio spectrum quite well within their output level limitations.

Some other points: 1. Good full-range drivers cost are costly. You may as well build a 2-driver system with dirt cheap drivers and a cheap crossover and call it a day. That's what most manufacturers are doing anyways. 2. The consumer thinks "more drivers = better".

why asked Paul that? A lot of tweeter, you can play it lower. That's the theme in all of his videos. The more, the better.

@dragonflyfab8982

4 жыл бұрын

Paul: I'm making a 1000 watt amp. Me: I'm listening to a 3 watt amp and am enchanted. Paul: Impossible!

Funny how single driver speakers (that roll off) sound best with SET tube amps (that roll off).

I’m not crazy about them. Single drivers can’t cover the entire frequency range. There are some new full ranges out their that come close, but I’d rather run at least two way speakers. A good example is single driver speakers are the Bose 901’s they use several full range speakers, but they are really just midranges. Bose sold them with a special equalizer that was supposed to help, but they sounded terrible. No bass, no highs, just mid range.some people can’t hear the difference. I feel sorry for them. But for the rest of us.....

@RennieAsh

2 жыл бұрын

They had plenty of bass and treble with the equaliser. The older ones surprisingly more I think. Some people find the dispersed reflected sound to be odd

You listen to headphones? I am not a proponent of a single driver speakers by no means. But wouldn't they also offer some of the same shortcomings?

@barbiegamaestan456

4 жыл бұрын

It still happened but much much less, as its proportional to the cone excursion. headphones are very close to the ear and have very high surface area for the relatively short path and therefore have less intermodular distortion compared to speakers.

1:49

Lowthers sing..

@lynnpoole7830

4 жыл бұрын

Indeed!

@AnyBobcat

4 жыл бұрын

@@lynnpoole7830 not to mention recent up to date fullranges as Voxatif, Feastrex, AER, and my preferred of them all: Rullit.

I always thought that as a kid that may be the simplicity of my car driver makes it sound better than then other car in which i had 3 way speakers... Their was this over all presentation that was better with single driver......

@SJMessinwithBoats

4 жыл бұрын

Nice, I would say the single driver was more balanced sounding. Not real low and not real high. Good experiance when balanced.

@rakeshmahindrakar8866

4 жыл бұрын

Yes. Single driver can sound good. But you might need equalizer to get it right.!!

4:47 Compromise.

The more the merrier

i believe it's called shouty.

@Justwantahover

3 жыл бұрын

Without a crossover, they are. But you can make crossover filters for single driver speakers. You can make them sound how you like with the filter unit...which is basically a two way crossover connected to the same driver instead of two drivers.

Why should I buy your speakers over the likes of Dali, Focal, Totem, Vandersteen, KEF, Harbeth etc?? Can you hear me?

@ryanschipp8513

4 жыл бұрын

You shouldn't buy his speakers. Some of those manufacturers you mentioned have been around for 40 50 years. There is no way Paul can compete with speaker manufacturers that have been in the game for such a long time and if a proven track record. Sometimes I like to predict the future and I will predict the future that Paul comes out with a speaker pair or two barely sells any and then stops doing speakers and continues with just Electronics.

@SJMessinwithBoats

4 жыл бұрын

I predict that he will pull it off. He's had a hard time letting go of passive crossovers as the way. Check back in a couple years he's taliking more DSP these days and that is what its going to take.

@RennieAsh

4 жыл бұрын

You may like the sound of his speakers over those others. Really need to listen to them as manufacturers tend to keep a similar sound signature which doesn’t appeal to everyone even in high end models

@ryanschipp8513

4 жыл бұрын

@@RennieAsh I heard Paul's speakers at Axpona. Nothing special. And also didnt look that great either.

@RennieAsh

4 жыл бұрын

@@ryanschipp8513 That's your opinion though. There are people who like speakers that I'd think are pretty ordinary sounding and vice versa. :)

Most headphone have a single driver and mine sound great.

I started off hearing misic via single driver mono & home made stereo baffles builds, i fully enjoyed them all but Tannoy Dual Concentrics are /were my most fave' 2-way single-driver speakers i ever owned (& fave' 2-way ever) I Bought a vintage pair in early 80's & all worked perfectly for nearly 40 years... (on & off, as i had other designs during that period but often returned to my Tannoy 15" d.c.speakers) ...until 1 of my the cones threw the towel in & started an awful sound of magnet /coil rubbing about 3 months back while listening. They are dated 1969 on each of their inspection tickets so 1 driver went non-linear after a fleeting 52 years! Geez, don't nuffin last anymore!

A pretty good compromise would be a near full range speaker such as an electrostatic like Martin Logan, some cross over at around 250 Hz, or even the big Heil AMT driver which crosses over at about 800 Hz.

This is an endles discussion between pro- and anti- single driver audiophiles. Simply put it's choosing between an all-rounder that doesn't really cover the whole audible specter well, or specialists that do cover the audible specter well but have some minor draw-backs (cross-over points). I would say for "simple" audio-tasks, like surround sound for your TV and/or game-console, the single driver speakers work just fine. For the more complex task of reproducing high-end audio, a 2-way speaker seems to be the agreed upon most acceptable compromise: it's better at covering the audible specter than a single driver and has less cross-over points than a 3 or even 4-way speaker. But in the end no 2 listeners are the same and what may sound perfect to you, may sound dreadful to somebody else. ( I believe Paul already mentioned that in his video about the (in)famous Bose 901 with equaliser)

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

I most definitely prefer my 2-way over most 3 and 4 way designs. OTOH I like Steve Guttenberg's advice to have different speakers for different musics. That's one reason I want to play with single driver designs again.

@doowopper1951

4 жыл бұрын

Are the “problems” that a really good crossover introduces as bad as the many of them introduced by using a single driver? IMHO, no, not even close.

@tjroelsma

4 жыл бұрын

@@doowopper1951 Correct, but fans of the single driver speakers mostly point to a cheap speaker with a badly designed cross-over to prove their point. A carefully designed cross-over with quality components reduces the "problems" to an absolute minimum. The proof of this is that very high-end speakers are almost all multi-driver speakers. There are some electrostatic speakers, but even those are often enhanced with a (sub)woofer, making it again a multi-driver instead of single driver speaker.

I think they're called full range speakers

2 way is quite optimal, but still needs a sub. I do not like 3 ways. Still needs a sub , so makes quite less sense..... A single driver is verry good , Just needs a tweeter and a subwoofer ....

You could just about predict what he would say.

At least 4, best 5.. Super tweeter, tweeter, midrange, midbas, woofer... Just my last 2 cents...

@bournelucid

4 жыл бұрын

I agree

@Jules-lw5tl

4 жыл бұрын

What no sub and mid-sub..??

@rene318

4 жыл бұрын

@@Jules-lw5tl Good luck filtering that...

my experiance with broadband drivers is that you can get around with 1 way systems up to 2" 4W, anything bigger and i can hear the distortion in the highs and the mentioned doppler effect. but smal drivers are fine , after all the eardrumm is only a 1 way system.

lol where do u even buy single driver speakers?

@tylancaster01

4 жыл бұрын

Franny- if I may, there's quite a devotion to single driver speakers - back loaded horns and transmission line speakers require a lot of engineering, but can look really cool and can sound great. Parts Express/Madisound are two sites I am familiar with - Fostex has had a cult following for a long time. Just FYI.

@franny231123DMT

4 жыл бұрын

​@@tylancaster01 yeah cool, good to know! . i think the only single driver speakers in my life were a mono radio as a kid in the 70's & the 2 VW car speakers at same time. lololol my entire adult career has been centered around popular PA setups (clubs, festivals etc) & studio monitoring, so its not surprising to me to be completely ignorant on what you describe, which sounds like a cool sub-culture to me BTW :) cheers for that

When you ear somebody telling you a device is made without compromise... you know he is knew in the field !

Not for me 2way at least I prefer 3 way me no like confused speakers 😂😂😂😂

Well said, Paul.

This is why two sets of speakers are nice. try using single Driver speaker For single instrument solos or single person solo vocal songs only. This is where they shine.

I drank the single driver kool aide and got some 4.5 fostex and built the recommended bass reflex box, it does sound good for jazz and vocals but really does overpower the midrange so much that you cannot enjoy movies nor any other kind of music. This is just hard to accept as we are all so used to multi speaker setups in our car and from our TVs etc.

@RennieAsh

2 жыл бұрын

Some drivers are more mid accentuated than others. Also many could benefit from a battle step compensation . Still have limits but can be ok for more content

think of it this way your eardrum is a single driver

The Piega 711 is amazing. Check it out. About 25k.

@RoaroftheTiger

4 жыл бұрын

Mo' Money ..Mo' Money … Mo' Money - $$$$ !

Wizzer cones and a passive radiators 😞 they have there place.... that place is the past 😂

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

Ditton 25s were in the past. And what a loverly past :-)

You have one ear drum...

Paul covers everything but lm not sure if everyone understands it. Multi drivers have multi crossover issues and as the drivers are all at different distances from your ear they have timing issues and different room reflection issues too plus you have to be a certain distance from them for the drivers to mix together. A single point source has no timing issues or crossover, period! You can sit 30cm from them and they will sound great. But a single driver can't do it all. The closest I can remember was Tannoy. With a 2" horn loaded tweeter inside a 15" bass. You still have a cross over but its low around 900hz . Its still not perfect as the treble starts to roll of around 16k. They have been making them for over 60 years and there still is there with the best

@johnsweda2999

4 жыл бұрын

You can make a tuned Focus beam for the higher frequencies not something I've seen anybody do yet

@thatboyneedssomemilkholemd819

Жыл бұрын

You can fix a crossover issue, but a single speaker system is damn near impossible to fix, just based of physics alone.

No driver is single point source. The driver cone is not a point.

And then there is the Steinway Spirio, an 88-way system using kinetic impact tri-linear drivers and proprietary high resolution digital input. There is no cross-over. The drivers are allowed to interact and roll off naturally, although variable damping may be applied, either by the the software or manually. And talk about imaging, it sounds like the piano is in the room with you (because it is), Oh yeah, it only plays piano music.

@swinde

4 жыл бұрын

And yet strangely, other piano brands sound different but still sound like a piano.

@stephensmith3111

4 жыл бұрын

@@swinde No two Steinways sound the same but still sound like pianos. There are other 'player pianos' out there, but this is the most advanced one commercially available currently that I'm aware of. If you can afford a WAMM 2, you can probable also afford one (or three or . . .) of these and have some place suitable to put it.

@swinde

4 жыл бұрын

It also could be argued that no two sounds produced at different times "sound the same". But you would be hard pressed to discern between two pure sine waves by ear. What I was trying to point out that different brands of say grand pianos or baby grands or upright pianos have their own distinct sound that can be identified by ear by professionals. To most laymen they are just pianos.

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

@@swinde I shared a flat with a Steinway grand and my GF had a Bosendorfer. I preferred the latter, but not to the GF!

@stephensmith3111

4 жыл бұрын

@@swinde I quite agree. I am a layman, but I listen a lot. I make no claims to being able to readily identify an American Steinway or a German Steinway or a Yamaha or a Bosendorfer (okay, maybe that one, especially one with the extra keys, yaayyy Sir Roland Hanna!) or a . . . without resorting to the liner notes. My late wife and my daughter definitely had/have the chops in the family. I was trying (with marginal success, apparently) to inject a touch of whimsy by likening a 'player piano' in terms of being a self-powered 88-way loudspeaker (that only plays piano music). p.s. with apologies to Yamaha and their Disklavier system.

Biggest weakness is that you have to suffer thru videos of old British farts claiming how good their bogus tiny tinny toy speakers are.

No single driver can reproduce 20Hz and 20 000Hz.

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

Very little musical content below 50 Hz and I can no longer hear past 8 kHz.

@doowopper1951

4 жыл бұрын

Or even close to that.

@jonathansturm4163

4 жыл бұрын

@Thom Moore Really? Frequency response curve for SEAS Exotic X1-08: www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/images/products/x1_08/x1-08_freq.png Time was an 8 inch FR used to be deficient in the higher frequencies. The Tang Band is similarly bright but not so good in the bottom end. There should be no problem obtaining "flat" from either driver with DSP. Please note I have not heard either driver yet, but both are receiving favourable comment from builders.

mmm...no...you need a tweeter and a woofer