Excellent video and testing. As I always tell my engineers in the words of the great W.Edwards Deming "without data you are just another person with an opinion"

You deserve far more viewers with content like this.

@Clough42

3 жыл бұрын

I couldn't agree more. :)

@alextreseder6274

3 жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 with content like this, they’ll come pouring in at some point no doubt

@rusticagenerica

3 жыл бұрын

Sorry but I can only confirm.

@JerrySpeedRC

9 ай бұрын

What parameter do you program to motor (if allow change settings) ? Tested by me NEMA 23 3,1Nm by factory defaultnis ser maybe to 50% of avaialble "power" after change settings to max limit is just stronger. Separate parameter for stall torque and for spinning. (iCS-2331-L)

@lesthompson5907

8 ай бұрын

not to @@Clough42 why stepper motor a not a dc motor out of the mobility scooter ?, can you test one of them.

I just found you today, and I like your videos. Pure simple engineer mindset you have, very smart one.

I always learning something listening to your videos. And that is saying something since my wife constantly reminds me that I know everything. Look forward to the follow on video.

Great comparison! Thank you for testing these so thoroughly and reporting your results.

Perhaps the best thing I've watched on KZread this year. Well done. Great content. 👍

This is very helpful. Thanks for taking the time to pull this together.

Very interesting. Thanks a lot for putting in the work and sharing the results!

One of my favorite channels. Quality content.

Love data! LOVE a well-presented analysis of said data. And live your test rig.

Best video on this topic after watching several videos, thank you.

Thanks James. As always a very informative lesson & clearly articulated. You have a real gift in being able to show & explain complicated technical details in a way that most laymen can understand. Keep up the interesting videos, please... :) (& I like your quiet dry sense of humour too).

Most excellent analysis...hmmm, now I understand why I’ve been creating “multi-start” threads so successfully 🤔

"This is why we test". Top-notch video!

Excellent video! Can't wait to see the comparison of the ClearPath vs. the StepperOnline Easy Servo!

Fantastic video! Loved it :) Your test rig is genius! I own a set of ClearPaths on my 3D printer and I love them. Quiet and powerful they are truly impressive equipment.

This is very valuable information. Thanks for taking all the time to do this study.

Fantastic testing and thoroughness. Thanks for the video

Well done James for putting in the effort to set all this up and do the editing! My CNC router runs 3Nm steppers on old analogue 80V drivers but I’m running at 70V as this really boosts the output over 48V.

James, thank you for an intelligent comparison of these motors. Your channel is one of the _few_ channels where I'm impressed with content _and_ intelligence.

The DOE was fantastic, I know it involved a lot of work. The data looks very interesting, especially when upgrading to a digital driver. Thanks! 👍🏼

This is gold!!! I wasn’t knowledgeable in any of these things before watching your videos. Now, I feel like I’ve been exposed to enough information (all from your videos) that I’m comfortable on understanding everything I’d need for buying the ELS parts. Thanks all to you James 💪🏻 That 180watt stepperonline motor your going to test sounds like the one for me if it does decent on your testing 🤞🏻 Great video sir 😎

Very understandably explained, even for non-English speakers. One of the best videos I have ever seen. Please keep it up! Thumbs up!

I have closed loop Nema 24s & 34 on my pm-25mv and they seem to be adequate. I really enjoyed your entire presentation. Another great video.

Nice work standardizing your test method, good head to head data.

Fantastic as always! Thanks for your work!!! Huge help.

Wow ! At last, an objective test. I've learned alot. Yes, and pinch of salt is always to be taken when reading specs, but your tests are truly revealing. The important point here is the test method, and not subjective reviews. Data doesn't lie, manufacturers do.... Well done, keep it at it.

Great content! I didn't fall asleep until 39:20 when it got quiet!

This was indeed helpful to my climbing the learning curve on these CNC motors and drivers. I especially liked the comparison at 31:20 and have very much "taken it for what it's worth". Good one! 😉

OOo really looking forward to that clearpath/stepperonline battle!

Thank you for this detailed test, this is very valuable for making an educated decision. I was considering going with closed loop, just because it's supposedly better, but seeing this, at the rpm I'll be using it, the difference to a digital driver is very small! You just saved me some money.

Thank you for doing this, lots of hearsay on the web, my first cnc was in 2004, and no one did this 👍 , this is a demostrative example to base decisions on. Btw, I know John at automation technologies personally and he’s a great person. I’ve done most of these comparisons and I’m going to the get the clear path for my z-axis on the g704👍😎. Awesome video, James.

Wasn't the video I was looking for but happy I decided to stay.

Great video! Hope to see last test shootout, using this to pull the trigger on a buy.

Awesome video! Detailed and insightful. Thank you!

Very helpful! Always love your videos keep up the great work

The test method is brilliant, I mean rolling the string over the motor hub and pulling on one end

Hadn't heard of the idea of "electronic leadscrew" before this video - very cool idea!

Very nice, always want to see such a thorough comparison between those motors. Also would like to see the comparison between spindle motors.

GREAT INFO! I would not have known how to test these. I have Nema 23s and a couple large Nema 34s and never knew really what the optimal speed/torque would be.

Excellent testing. Just the right amount of introduction upfront and then into the testing. Your production skills are fantastic. Thank you!

Excellent information I Need a lot of that next year as I am working on my Project

Really interesting James! Thank you for that content. I’d love to have an ELS for my 15x60 lathe. I only know a little about this stuff so designing a full system is outside of my comfort zone for sure.

Absokuly amazing information!! Thanks James.

Very cool project. I'm building this for my old Grizzly G4000 lathe, going with the Rattm Motor 3N.m Closed Loop Set

fantastic and helpfull testing , thank you

Hi James, this investigation is valuable well beyond ELS as I'm sure you know and that is reflected in the title which will help with other search terms. Very interesting results and thank you. BobUK.

"I'm all out of motors" and presumably money, given the price of some of these motors, yikes! Nice procedure and results!

@arinchang6579

3 жыл бұрын

I have some new clearpath motors if any one is interested.

@TurkishLoserInc

3 жыл бұрын

@@arinchang6579 Definitely interested!

Fantastic video, both for the methodology (I was wondering how I would set up a rig for testing) and the comparison of the results.

Incredibly well done analysis !!!

An awesome, truly useful video. Many thanks!

Superb presentation and details of the comparison cheers

thanks for testing. great infomation!

Killer video James. Gold

I very much like your method of measuring torque; I had not seen that before. I love electro - mechanical projects. Thanks.

@Clough42

3 жыл бұрын

I really wanted to build a proper motor dyno with a load cell at each end of a friction strap and a leadscrew to gradually apply the force, but realized I could spend the next six months developing it. that would be fun, but wouldn't really get me closer to my goals. :)

@samvoelkel2046

3 жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 Your method of measuring torque is excellent for those of us still trying to grasp the fundamentals of torque and horsepower. Nothing is hidden inside some arduino code communicating with a load cell; everything is out in the open and easy to understand. I think your method is both educational AND serves as a low-cost torque measurement system. I like it.

Really enjoyed this content! DMM Servo is what I use. Would love to see what they do against the Clearpath

Expecting the Project Farm music to start any moment now.

@dahut3614

3 жыл бұрын

We're gonna test that!

finally someone using a prony brake instead of the scale test :) Nice work

Very good presentation just watched it

Thanks my dear, I will try to follow your input and transform my lathe, too. It will be a long term project as last time I had used trubopascla (25 years ago). I bought an arduino (knowing that probably it is not powerfull enough) but if it will work just a bit I will feel I won. Thanks for your videos, as a (small) youtuber I know how challanging it is and you make more then professional videos. I thank you a lot for your time and send my best regards from Florence. PS: When I should finish the project I will send you the link to my video...but don't expect it too soon :-)

As an engineer, I agree with you. You always have to test key components to see if the data sheet is accurate. I've seen lots of power MOSFETs that have a safe-operating area much smaller shown in the data sheet.

This is a great video, thank you.

Nice setup!

Nice job one more time! As I understand probably the second line on the clear path motor is the 100%dude factor load.

thanks very much for doing this video, very interesting.

Hi James and thanks for an incredibly useful video. Would be very valuable to measure the power off ‘residual torque’ (for lack of a better expression) of these steppers / servos. Sometimes you want to operate a machine manually while the stepper / servo is coupled but off. Then if considerable, ‘residual torque’ can play havoc with manual accuracy. Many thanks for an excellent channel.

Thanks for this valuable information

great work

Cool stuff! Thanks!

Brought back memories of physics lab! Enjoyed this one very much. Thanks.

@nordishkiel5985

3 жыл бұрын

Same here, although my professor would have turned me inside out if i had used the smoothed graph lines in a diagram. "If you did´nt measure it, don´t graph it."

@Clough42

3 жыл бұрын

Fair enough. When you get a lot of lines, the smooth lines make it easier to track a single line across the graph.

@kevben6355

2 жыл бұрын

This just energized me. Great work!

@kevben6355

2 жыл бұрын

Also, I would love to seem the math you used in that spread sheet to calculate Torque

Very nice motor test

Great info.

Love this test. I was for a while ruminating over if I should invest in a servo system for my cnc. Have to say they don't appear to perform as well as I thought. Also, the clearpath system running at 72v should obviously take the lead given the voltage hike. I would imagine most of the other closed loop systems would have performed fairly comparable at that voltage, so this test is skewed in favour imo. That being said, I'll stick with my current dsp open loop system 👍👍

Just a thought to help ease up on the pressure -- if you tie the string around anything you can use as a lever, it would allow you to pull it against the vice and take a lot of variance out of pulling the string directly.

This channel is the way, the truth, and the light. Also, you've lost a LOT of weight, James. Good on you man, keep taking care of yourself you look so much healthier than 2 years ago.

@Clough42

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks! I feel better, too. Last weekend, I needed to move a 350lb piece of machinery, and I just lifted it onto the pallet. That was really satisfying. :)

Please take a look at the popular JMC servo with integrated driver 180 Watt. There is also a 400Watt version, and a new 200watt.

I just started watching this. My wife looks over and says "oh, it's your friend" 😁

Will try

Really nice analysis. The last integrated servo are actually made by leadshine. I got the 200w made by JMC. They also have the same 180w ones. I hope the test comes out nice Becuase I got 3 of them! Great content as usually

@Ale_Lab

3 жыл бұрын

@@marcus_w0 same for me. Got them directly from JMC. I have now discover that the 200w version exist also with 10mm shaft. The 11m shaft size was a real nightmare. I am using steel pulley and che 4mm keyway in the was a real challenge. Good to know that they are working well for you! I bought them Rodger with a 1.8kw AC servo to replace my Nema24 on the BF20L (simil G0704) and the spibdle motor. All servos is the way to go :-)

Thank you

I requested a quote for 4 Servos at DMM Technology and the guys offered me a very nice discount so, Is my way to go, plus DMM servos have a 16 bits absolute encoders which is awesome. I would compare a DST 0.4kW AC Servo Motor (164 usd) + DYN4 AC Servo Drive (235 usd) with that Clearpath. Thanks so much for your channel, it is always professionally done in content and editing, I just like it even before see it.

@Clough42

3 жыл бұрын

So many motors... So little time... So much money. :)

thank you

Super great video ... thanks!! Not sure it's been suggested but if you add compliance to your cord at the finger-pull-end (spring?), you'll get a much smoother tension control in finger pull vs output tension resulting in more consistent measurements in pull-out torque. It will adhere to the winch equation -> LoadTension = InputTension * e^(Drum-CordFriction*CordWrapAngle) for the mechanical gain of your cord+drum winch system. You'll be able to control the InputTension (and hence output tension) better.

@Clough42

3 жыл бұрын

Oh, good idea. I didn't think of that.

Awesome video. Earned a new sub. My garage cnc uses the Clearpath SDSK-2346P-RLN and I really like them. Between the Clearpath and a Jianken 3.2kw spindle you can barely hear my machine running beyond the noise from the cutter. I remember the days when we all ran routers and it would run you out of the room with the noise. Again, great video. Thanks!

@Clough42

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I need to tear in to my mill to hunt down some backlash that has crept in, and I'm seriously thinking about the Clearpaths.

@machine2747

3 жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 My issues were in the shaft couplings. Changed to Zero-Max brand and everything improved 100%.

@rbyt2010

3 жыл бұрын

Great video! I built a similar machine (CP nema 32's with Jianken spindle) It is great :) FWIW I don't think the Teknic PS and cables are magic. I used a big, open-frame supply from AD, made up my own cables and they're fine. Just follow the specs and you can save a few bucks

@machine2747

3 жыл бұрын

@@rbyt2010 If you got the ATC option on your Jianken spindle Piotr Fox posted a link on some lower cost ISO25 tool holders. I bought them and have to say the runout measured as good as the $100 a piece tool holders from Parfaite. I think I spent just over $100 for 5 tool holders.

@rbyt2010

3 жыл бұрын

@@machine2747 Thanks, will check it out. Little behind on Piotr...

3D printed hanger also elasts little when force applied, so you have to substract that too, but doesn't matter if you are using same setup for motor to motor comparison.

Very informative, thanks! I'd be very interested in a module on measuring/calculating required torque for a specific application, i.e. what size motor is needed to drive a lathe leadscrew or whatever. (I had to just go with the old SWAG method for my ELS.)

@nordishkiel5985

3 жыл бұрын

True, that would be helpful. Although there would be a lot of assumptions about the friction in the system, which would require a big safety margin. For the rest, it´s simple physics. You would need the mass / geometry of every accelerating part though.

Given the work that @vez3d and @miragec are doing for fast 3d printers, it would be super interesting to see the odrive with their 270kv & 150kv bldc motors tested with this methodology for comparison. I’ve been consider using some nema23 stepper or changing to the clearpath or odrive.

This is a great test, but also an excellent demonstration of why you shouldn't use the "smooth curves" plotting style in Excel with sparsely sampled data!

Just as a notice, for the hybrid motor, the torque curve was for 75v and you run 48v if I'm not mistaken.

Great video James!!! I purchased your ELS kit but have not installed it yet. I too did lots of research for the most affordable closed loop stepper for this ELS project. Many forums as well as the guys from Arizona CNC Kits (Who have tested loads of Nema 23/24 closed loops steppers) & Franco from Franco CNC directed me to a very affordable 4.0 Nm(566.56oz.in) closed loop stepper/32 bit digital driver (Stepperonline item# 1-CL57Y-24HE40). This closed loop stepper/driver kits sell for $90.56. It "appears" to be a nice fit for your ELS project. As I will not be using these components for 5+ months, I would be happy to loan the closed loop stepper/driver to you to put it on your well thought out testing rig. Thanks... Richard

@Clough42

3 жыл бұрын

I saw that "4.0Nm" kit, but if you look at the torque curve, it only claims just over 2.5Nm pull-out torque.

I hope you'll make what ever changes in software and such available again based on where you end up on the ELS...if so, I'm in for the changes (Unless it's Clear Path!)

@Clough42

3 жыл бұрын

All of these motors, including the Clearpath are compatible with the software as-is.

ShOcK & AWE comprehensive video. A KZread video that all others will be compared. You "are" the Servo-Stepper Whisperer. Must See TV is back. Yeah, I'm pretty wound up. Subbed! :)

It would be nice back2back test also following combo: motor 23HS2430B, CL driver 2HSS86H. Together with an 1000ppr encoder it forms quite low cost combo with reasonable performance. I've tested it set to 3A RMS, 6.8A max. current draw in my application by a proper rotational torque meter, it tops at about 90W, but the resulted speed/torque characteristics can't be directly comparable with the methodology of this video for sure. sidenote: drivers configuration (esp. the current limit in closed loop and both PI controllers terms) are key to maximise the perfo. Tuning the RMS current up to the thermal limits of given motor for application duty cycle is the way to get the most of the system.

Bravo for knowing the proper name of the Prony brake! ;-)

I've just heard (from this video) about DSP based stepper drivers. Maybe do a video on the difference between DSP based and legacy stepper drivers?

Huge !

James, Your testing here made me think of something I've wondered about. Does the ELS algorithm have a ramp acceleration built in to it to reduce stalls if the spindle drive accelerates quickly? I love the way you mix electrical and mechanical applications.

@nirodper

3 жыл бұрын

the spindle accelerating IS the ramp, if there was a software ramp algorithm the tool would loose sync. you want a tight spindle-leadscrew coulping to mimic a mechanical coupling

please, feel free to talk more about motors.

@twobob

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, that was excellent

@ikbendusan

3 жыл бұрын

lol

@twobob

3 жыл бұрын

@@ikbendusan Genuine comment. I /actually/ want him to? :)

Hey. Look at my little 570oz stepper GO! I need upgrade to the KL-5056D. I wonder what the KL-5056E would do. Does the full step, half step, quarter step change anything with the torque at speeds? I think I had it set for 1/8 steps. The Gecko drivers does some magic with the steps by converting the pulse train to full steps when it can. Good stuff!!!

I like your shop, mine is a tiny shop 8' x 16'. No off the shelf mill or lathe. I have a Skil drill press that I have built a conversion package for I call it SkillMan, that allows me to due some machining.