the avengers of protestant youtube are starting to form...

@averytameburrito3101

8 ай бұрын

Ah but how many are they?

@antoniotodaro4093

8 ай бұрын

"Reformers, assemble"

@PhthaloGreenskin

8 ай бұрын

Prot tube.

@pearcejayw

6 күн бұрын

They can team up with Redeemed zoomer, Gospel simplicity, and Keith Foskey (maybe?). Just my opinion Lol

Use the thumbs up button as a "I want to see these guys co-author a book on Protestantism" button! Great discussion Dr. Ortlund and Dr. Cooper!

@ProfYaffle

Жыл бұрын

You know Gavin is writing a book on Protestantism do you?

@natebozeman4510

Жыл бұрын

@@ProfYaffle I do, yes! I very much look forward to it!

@morghe321

11 ай бұрын

​@profyaffle this comment was written 7 months ago. Any news about the book?

@natebozeman4510

11 ай бұрын

@@morghe321 I think it comes out August of 2024. So about a year from now

@morghe321

11 ай бұрын

@@natebozeman4510 thanks!

Woah two of my favorite Protestant KZreadrs uniting? Very cool.

@caroldonaldson5936

Жыл бұрын

They previously did another one around August 2021 you might want to check out.

@WilliamFAlmeida

Жыл бұрын

Thought the exact same thing

@matthewmclain461

Жыл бұрын

U might even say truth is uniting

@TharMan9

Жыл бұрын

Amen!

@thewayfarersjourney6336

Жыл бұрын

Uniting against Catholicism. Hahaha

An absolute stellar conversation. Very measured and fair to Catholics. I'm in the LCMS and really debate on whether or not I should be Catholic - but I'm always reminded that Protestants DID NOT get rid of their history. We love the church fathers, we love the liturgy, we love our traditions.

These are the two nicest people on KZread. What a joy to see them together.

Love it! We should embrace calling ourselves Protestant and finding unity in that!

@billmartin3561

Жыл бұрын

How about embracing all trinitarian Christians and working together to win lost souls for Christ. Rather than focusing on Protestant vs Catholic divisions.

@danstoian7721

Жыл бұрын

@@billmartin3561 Well actually… yes, brother! 🙂

I had a big smile on my face as I watched this video. I appreciate you both so much for all you do on your channels. I stumbled on both of your channels after my brother converted to Catholicism from Protestantism a few years ago. I was attempting to understand our differences. You both have helped me a lot on my journey to understand and learn, not only about those theological and ecclesial differences, but gaining a deeper understanding of Protestant roots. God bless you both! Would love to see more videos with the both of you!

@TruthUnites

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Jenny! Glad to be connected!

Dr. Ortlund and Dr. Cooper, I want to thank you both very much for this fruitful discussion. It seems that the more Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox are able to filter out the noise in their dialogues with eachother we come to much deeper mutual understandings. You two have contributed much to these mutual understandings in my own research, as well as in the research of many others. There are still obvious points of difference between us Christians, but it seems that many are attempting to root out exactly what the concrete differences are -- myself included. These are complex issues which span the last two millennia. I think the more we understand this complexity, the more we can come to an understanding of each other. God bless you both.

@Mygoalwogel

Жыл бұрын

Dear Sir, Dr. Ortlund is the first and only Calvinist/Baptist I've considered to be worth listening to. I generally find that side of the Protestant spectrum to be useless, because they deny the Gospel promises that are directly found within Sacraments. Archpriest Patrick Henry Reardon is the first and only Nikonite* I've considered worth listening to. I generally find that side of the Magisterial spectrum to be condescending and unwilling to face the uglier side of their history. You, sir, are the first Romanist* I've been able to find who is worth listening to. I just listened to your video about Pelosi. I found it neither self-aggrandizing, nor blindly relying on historical fallacies, nor defensive/apologetic to the point of dismissing the truth. My conscience is compelled, by the doctrines of my Church, to believe that there can be, and indeed, _are_ godly, faithful Christians in the Roman Church. Thank you so much for providing strong evidence of that. I've just subscribed to your channel. *Call me Christian. I'll call you Christian. Call me Evangelical Catholic, I'll call you Roman Catholic. Call me just Catholic or Orthodox, I'll call you just Catholic or Orthodox. Call me just Protestant, I'll call you just Romanist or Nikonite. Sorry if it offends, but I'm not going to speak against my doctrines just to avoid hurting peoples' identity politics.

@catholicisminthecar

Жыл бұрын

@@Mygoalwogel Thanks be to God, my brother. I do attempt to understand the other before I attempt to accuse them of anything. I do not do this perfectly, but I strive towards that goal. Truth does truly unite. God bless you, and thanks for your support and subscription!

Some of the best Biblical Christian content on KZread. As an Independent Baptist (who grew up Roman Catholic) I find Lutheran theology so rich and fascinating. Dr Cooper and Dr Ortlund need to do more videos together. I would love to see you exploring Wesleyan Arminianism and the Holiness movement on your channel. Thanks Pastor Ortlund. Blessings from Australia.

@catholicapologetics7263

Жыл бұрын

im sorry you broke away from the one true Church Jesus established , you can always come back home , it is never to late!

@myselfpoker88

Жыл бұрын

@@catholicapologetics7263 I love Jesus and love being apart the one holy catholic and apostolic church, the bride of Christ. God bless and thanks for the comment. Keep me in your prayers.

@hildegardnessie8438

Жыл бұрын

The richest theology is found in the Catholic Church - the one true church Jesus established.

@lebeccthecomputer6158

Жыл бұрын

@@catholicapologetics7263 I’m curious what your thoughts are on this: the Catholic Church has made it clear that Protestants/non Catholics are separated brethren that can nevertheless be saved. Would you say this includes former Catholics who left the church for a different denomination out of genuine conviction? Granted I was not raised Catholic and never have practiced it, I have felt called to the Catholic Church on a couple of occasions including recently. However it’s difficult to discern what is God calling me and what is my own superstitious mind pushing me in one direction or the other. I worry that if I make the wrong decision even genuinely, I may be damned, now that (assuming Catholicism is true) I have been given a kind of divine assistance in the right direction

@catholicapologetics7263

Жыл бұрын

@@lebeccthecomputer6158 invincible ignorance does exist so i would say some are under this category, absolutely , do i believe some non Catholics will be saved , sure i do but it also might fall under that category of ignorance. I do believe that a Catholic who walks away knowingly is doing dishonor to himself and therefore judgement therefore might be harsh and even to those who study the Catholic Church and knowingly reject it they also will be judged because they do not humble themself and some to the fullness of Jesus in the Catholic Church. As far as you being drawn into the Catholic faith , i can say with 100% confidence it is a true calling based on what the Church is and what it offers. Christ came and established a Church , not a bible , we can show the Catholic Church to be the correct one etc Every issue you have with the Catholic Church can be easily answered and explained from Mary , to the Saints , to the Eucharist and Wine etc When you start to realize who Mary is for instance , everything will start to make sense even more so in your Christian Life , the Eucharist and Wine is the most intimate thing one can participate in because of the significance of it being the true flesh and blood of our Lord for Eternal life as he tells us , this is the beauty of his Catholic Church

PSA to those of you who wonder why so many comments? The comments are the best place to take notes in a video with timestamps. It boosts the video for the algorithm. It is very findable. As a KZreadr I appreciate when my viewers do it. They often make a comment about something and I don't now what exactly they are referring to in the video.

For those interested in classical anglicanism, check out Davenant Institutes' republished version of Richard Hooker's Laws of Ecclesiastical Polity.

Excellent discussion. I was once a Protestant who thought the grass was greener on the other side. But before jumping over the fence I chose to do a lot of research of RC and EO which included listening to both of these scholars and concluded neither were palatable to me. As Dr Jordan said, the order, liturgy, and historical roots were attractive features but what I had to believe to be a part of either didn't set right with my understanding of scripture. I'm still searching for a new Church but it will be likely be either an unwoke version of Reformed or Lutheran which are not that easy to find in my area.

@catholicapologetics7263

Жыл бұрын

You cannot understand scripture in light of any other theology but Catholicism , so it is not surprising to me you remained a Protestant , because just as you said it did not set right with your understanding of scripture. And your understanding of scripture is flawed because of the very fact you are non Catholic , hopefully oneday you become honest and you seek the truth and dont freak out when your shaking Protestant foundation starts to crumble , but as of now you are happy being in delusion. God bless you and may you become convicted of humble yourself to stop being your own Pope

@hildegardnessie8438

Жыл бұрын

The Roman Catholic Church welcomes you.

@dylansheridan2892

Жыл бұрын

@@hildegardnessie8438 As a Roman Catholic, how do you reconcile Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:4-7 with the works-based salvation that Rome teaches?

@mynameis......23

Жыл бұрын

@@hildegardnessie8438 Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. ACTS 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” There is only One Mediator between God and men, LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by One Spirit to the Father John 15:5 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20, 1 Corinthians, Galatians. 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. _ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.

@TheDjcarter1966

Жыл бұрын

@@mynameis......23 No need to do a wall of text with tired arguments and strawmen ... Some basic research will debunked just about everything your posted

I'm so thrilled that you guys finally teamed up. Ever since the "debate" I felt like something like this would've been so much more fun!

Love these two guys! I'm what Pastor Bryan Wolfhauser refers to as a "youtube theologian" and I'm so glad we've finally got some deep Protestant thinkers to counter the historical and apostolic arguments from Catholic and Orthodox apologists. Great job, gents and keep up the good work!

Great collab Dr. Ortlund. Please continue….leaning into Protestant distinctives with Dr. Cooper would be great. Keep up the great work, I remain happily classically Protestant tho I love my Roman Catholic and Orthodox friends.

Jesus wasn’t opposed to tradition, but did use the word of God to correct the Pharisees with bad tradition. Yes. Good word dapper Jordan

21:15. Nailed it! That's Protestantism. Excellent.

More early church fathers content! Maybe even a walk through from the early church to the reformers. Gavin I’d like to know more about Montanism and Tertullian’s connection with them. Love the video! God bless you both! Just bought your “ theological retrieval” book Gavin.

@zacdredge3859

Жыл бұрын

Yeah i read a little on this but on some level it seems like Tertullian went Montanist because he was being pushed out already and preferred this to starting something new. I'm sure there's more to it than that though, just not sure how much he actually affirmed the views the Montanists were known for.

@ProfYaffle

Жыл бұрын

Try TheBlackDoctor channel. He is trying to cover this and also has a nice teaching style

Gavin, this was a great discussion. Per your request at the end, I think I would love to hear more about the dialogue between the early protestants and the Eastern Orthodox church, and about the Calvinistic Patriarch. Thanks for putting in your time here on KZread

@cassidyanderson3722

Жыл бұрын

The supposed “Calvinist Patriarch” is a bit of a misnomer. They are referring to Cyril Lucaris, who is alleged to have penned a “confession” that was first published outside of the Orthodox world and was immediately condemned when it finally made it to Orthodox lands. Lucaris himself wrote many more works which repudiate Calvinism, leading many scholars to conclude it was a forgery (most likely by Jesuits). The EO called a synod (Jerusalem 1672) at which Calvinism, and the other forms of Protestantism, were anathematized. I believe you will find that Orthodoxy, without any exceptions, considers Calvinism to be heretical.

As a firm protestant I am always curious on what the role of the visible church should be. Charity? Evangelism? Should the church always avoid politics? For a future video maybe you and Cooper could discuss the role of the church in the secular world? Love both of your channels, I watch all of your new videos religiously (pun intended)! Keep up the good work

@mynameis......23

Жыл бұрын

Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. ACTS 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” There is only One Mediator between God and men, LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by One Spirit to the Father John 15:5 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20, 1 Corinthians, Galatians. 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. _ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.

@pawlaovicto7824

8 ай бұрын

You raised a good point The Roman Catholics have a ""wing"" of Bishops for judgement and another for charity, as far as I'm concerned (franciscans and dominicans. If you're Roman Catholic and see that this comment is wrong, please feel free to correct me) I think that wherever there is a Protestant church, there should be fair judgement and charity. I mean, neopentecostals in Brazil are doing better than some Protestants because they just have more money that springs from their heresies! How come?

I love seeing to brothers in Christ working together to explain and defend the same gospel inspite of their differences. Praise God for both of these scholars.

The 2 best guys Protestants got going for em!!

Great video. Really appreciate and am edified by both of these two teachers.

New video idea: Bookshelf tour and recommendations.

Dr. O needs a Dr. Cooper beard 🧔

This was amazing. More please. If an Anglican position can be added to fully show classical Protestantism, that would be great.

@wesmorgan7729

Жыл бұрын

I second that. I think Jesse Nigro or Isaac Rehberg would be great additions.

Great video as always! Two of my favorite pastors need to do this more

A much needed conversation. Thanks for this. Would love to see you two in more videos.

Thanks to both of you for putting the time into this. Good job at distilling the information for uneducated folks like myself.

Great conversation! These are the types of conversations that I really benefit from and enjoy learning from. Conversationally engaging and technical enough to help me pursue some additional sources.

Crazy exited about this one! I've listened so much to both of you (and Jordan basically got me through my dogmatics course at my Lutheran seminary .. thanks!) If it wasn't a Christological heresy to call this the perfect hypostatic union, I'd have went for it!

@mikeyvangelism

Жыл бұрын

What seminary did you attend?

@TheAndreas1008

Жыл бұрын

@@mikeyvangelism I'm attending "Menighedsfakultetet ("Congregation faculty") - Lutheran School of Theology" in Aarhus, Denmark with connection to Fjellhaug Internarional University College in Oslo, Norway.

Great dialogue, I apreciate both of you guys work!

Look forward to listening to this after my abstract algebra final exam tomorrow!

Move aside Avengers Endgame, this is the best crossover on video

Amen! The Church never dies.

I will say you two are what have interested much in church history. Nice cooperation

I'm just here for my favorite theology KZreadrs.

Wow - my two fav theologians just killing it! What a conversation and thank you. I wonder if you can address jointly the doctrine of justification by the Roman church. I have seen made videos from both of these speakers but would like to get into the specifics on how to address it with our roman friends. Thanks!

Could you do a video specifically on Catholicism adopting Protestant doctrines?

19:20, Oh the Ortho bros are going to have you for THAT comment. :)

Thank you!

This is one the best videos I ever heard. Really the reasons why I become protestant!

@geoffjs

5 ай бұрын

But no genuine Eucharist

Great video guys. I'd love to hear you both dig in to the correspondence between the Lutherans and the Eastern Orthodox - what the agreements were, where they couldn't agree and why. The ideal that unity could have been found there at that time is an interesting thought experiment.

@triplea6174

Жыл бұрын

I believe from what I've heard it was the emphasis on icon/veneration they couldn't get behind. One of the factors mind you.

Great dialogue, thank you. Would love to see you talk about your exp of Catholics and Orthodox Christians who have become Baptist/Lutheran and why.

Hmm. This looks interesting! :)

Another conversation between you two on differing Protestant political theologies would be really interesting!

I’d like to see a video with Gavin & Dr. Copper jointly discussing sola fide (or even all the solas) and the church fathers.

Here early and happy about it

Finally my Favorite protestants😍🌹

Just got to the end of the video: Would love to see you guys talk together about the dogmas of Mary (to stay in the Catholic realm), or about the anti-Reformation movement. I've heard people mention it in passing, but don't know much about it.

23:00 Uh oh, he said it too. I guess that's why we're all Protestant and why we stay that way. Sorry Ortho friends, just gotta be honest about it. And it is in fact a GOOD thing that the church does change over time. The tough part is figuring out the good and the bad of those changes. Contexts require diversity. I think that is the point of the Apostle Paul's ministry to the Gentiles. Read the book of Romans.

Thanks!

@TruthUnites

Жыл бұрын

Thanks a lot!

My two favourite youtubers! Could you make a video together about John Henry Newman's theory of the development of doctrine from a Classical Protestant perspective? I mean not only critique, but also something positive about Protestant view on doctrinal development.

Jordan and his circle's channel and all their content is great. Another of my favorite Lutheran brothers, in a similar vein, is Chad Bird. Truth really does unite...

Thank you for the very lively and informative discussion on clarifying the essential marks of classical historical Protestantism. I am curious how you fit in the Anabaptists during the Reformation period in terms of where they fit in to the Protestant context. Perhaps they were different in that their ecclesiology seemed to move in a different direction?

26:00 excellent list.

Luther himself speaks on this in a lesser read work, “On the Private Mass and the Consecration of Priests.” He gets into some interesting points. He also wrote a work, “On the Councils and the Church.” The last portion of this work deals very specifically with what is the Church

I hope Trent Horn is watching this.

Would love to have you both go through the 5 solas of the reformation, in relation to there Catholic Church.

12:30, VERY true about the RC. :)

"The Reformers were the ones saying...'no, the church is far broader than being under one particular bishop'" (44:50). Love it.

@JW_______

Жыл бұрын

@Matheus Ribeiro Lira I believe the quote is referring to "Bishops" plural, not to a monarchal patriarch. Absolutely agree. As a Protestant I have no qualms with that, so long as you recognize that there are extreme cases where even bishops err and must be ignored for the sake of conscience and fealty to Christ.

This Catholic loves you both and very much appreciated this discussion. I respect the decision of conscience in all people. As someone with a background in interreligious thought, I never could have come into the Church without Vatican II and its theologians. In an earlier time period, many Church practices would have kept me out, and thankfully the Church has changed and widened its heart. There are still elements within her walls I struggle with (I don't know any Catholic who doesn't) but my overwhelming feeling is one of awe and love and joy in being Catholic. When it comes to things like Marian devotion, intercession/learning from the saints, the Real Presence... for me it just took opening my heart to the possibility that these practices referred to real realities. Then they took on a life in me that I never would have expected. There's plenty of weird things about the Catholic Church, but somehow between all of that (or perhaps because of it) it houses a real encounter with mystery. But I am thankful for Christ wherever He is. Praise your faith and your work for the Kingdom.

@kirstenfondren9226

Жыл бұрын

Well said and this convert agrees 🙏🏻

One thing I'd like to see discussed is how the laity can go about strengthening our local churches, maybe in terms of church history and tradition or maybe just in how reformation from within works when it's not originating from the top. It seems like most successful reform efforts originate from people who have some amount of authority: pastors, elders, bishops, worship leaders, etc., but is there something we can do from below if it's not so much a doctrinal or structural issue as much as a cultural or social problem, like maybe for instance a general disregard for deeper fellowship among each other? In my area there are a lot of Baptist-adjacent nondenominational churches, partly because they tend to split when there are arguments. There are well-meaning Christian people in these churches with a real faith, but often there is a spirit of tribalism or a general defensive stance against anyone or anything on the outside, or sometimes just a complacency and a lack of deep fellowship. How do you know when and how to stick it out, and when is it time to find a healthier church? And from a practical perspective what can we do when we do stick it out? Because from a lot of these talks I get the sense that the answer is to just find a church that already has the right perspective on things, but that doesn't sit quite right with me. If the answer is just to go to a better church (even when not over serious doctrinal issues), nobody interested in reform is going to put in the effort to help these churches get to a better place. And that doesn't seem very unity-driven to me.

Thx

cool!

The subtle midwestern accents are off the charts in this video!

Would love to see a conversation between you both on the topic of the Lord's supper

Obrigado!

@TruthUnites

Жыл бұрын

thanks! :)

Please talk about the sacrifice of the Eucharist and how Protestants can understand this! Thx 😊

There is nothing like unanimous consent in the fathers on a lot of issues.

I hope you cover the Catacomb images in your new book Dr. Ortlund.

@TruthUnites

Жыл бұрын

yup, briefly. I am not aware of any evidence they were venerated.

@truthunites what do you think of Hieko Oberman's take on Tradition 1 and Tridition 2? I know this is really in the weeds but this distinction has really helped me understand protestantism in a much deeper way. Could this be the core of the differences between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism?

I'm glad Jordan Cooper brought up how the early Christians viewed prayer. It's a neglected topic that should get a lot more attention than it does. The earlier patristic Christians seem to have had a view of prayer that was much closer to Protestantism than Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy. Celsus criticized Christians in general for only praying to God, not angels and other lesser beings, and Origen responded by defending the Christian practice of praying only to God. Similar sentiments are found in the treatises on prayer written by Tertullian, Origen, and Cyprian. And it looks like the earliest Christians in Rome in particular rejected the later Roman Catholic view of prayer. We see some early patristic sources who lived in Rome expressing a view of prayer that's closer to Protestantism's view on the subject. Hermas, for example, makes some comments about angels that suggest that he didn't consider them appropriate recipients of prayer. For those who are interested, Jordan Cooper has produced some good videos on early patristic beliefs about prayer.

@nealkriesterer

Жыл бұрын

Roman Catholicism to this day has never allowed prayer "to" anyone but God. Asking someone to pray for you is not prayer "to" them. And asking someone to pray for you certainly is good, as there are examples of this even in Scripture such as 1 Thesellonians 5: 25 I would be very surprised to hear Origen, Hermas etc. were against asking others to pray for you. If so, they were against Scripture.

@Mygoalwogel

Жыл бұрын

@@nealkriesterer False. Bonaventure’s Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary PSALM 53 O Lady, save me in thy name: and deliver me from my injustices. That the craft of the enemy may not hurt me: hide me under the shadow of thy wings. O my Lady, help me ! bestow thy grace upon my soul ! Willingly I will offer thee a sacrifice of praise: and I will give praise to thy name, for it is good. For thou shalt deliver me from all tribulation: and my eye shall despise mine enemies.

@nealkriesterer

Жыл бұрын

@@Mygoalwogel Never heard of this psalter before, probably because it's one writing amongst many by this saint, and there are thousands of saints. It is also 800 years old. You would think, if Catholic prayer was actually as corrupted as you say, that you would be able to point to the prayers of mass, the liturgy of the hours (daily prayer) or at least common devotions. But instead you had to reach back 800 years to a obscure psalter. This is not a living/popular psalter. Online, the only people I see discussing it are Protestants!

@jasonengwer8923

Жыл бұрын

@@nealkriesterer Here are some examples of Roman Catholicism encouraging prayers to beings other than God: "Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men." (Catechism Of The Catholic Church, 2679) "With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race." (Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus) And you can do some online searches to find many more examples of Roman Catholic prayers to deceased humans and angels. You can do the same with Eastern Orthodoxy. The documentation is easy to find (e.g., the Rosary). I've produced a collection of resources on prayers to the dead and angels and the history behind the practice on a page titled "A Christian View Of Prayer" on Triablogue dated March 6, 2011. You can run a search for it if you're interested.

@jasonengwer8923

Жыл бұрын

@@nealkriesterer And you are praying to somebody if prayer is the means by which you're requesting that the person pray for you. Roman Catholics don't just ask the saints and angels to pray for them. But even if that were all they did, it would still constitute praying to saints and angels. And there are multiple problems with doing that, ones discussed in the collection of articles I referred to above (the Biblical prohibition of attempting to contact the deceased; the early patristic opposition to praying to the deceased and angels; our not having reason to expect the beings in question to hear our prayers; etc.). You bring up the analogy of 1 Thessalonians 5:25, but that passage undermines your position rather than supporting it. Paul had to write to the Thessalonians to ask them to pray for him. He didn't bring his request to the Thessalonians by praying to them. And the Thessalonians weren't dead at the time, they weren't angels, and so on, so your analogy breaks down at that point as well.

I'd like to see a roundtable discussion with Gavin (Baptist), Jordan (Lutheran), and Matthew Everhard (Presbyterian) on protestantism. I think that'd be dope.

@Mygoalwogel

Жыл бұрын

That would not be fair because Dr. Ortlund is already Calvinist. You'd need a synergist. Wait, that wouldn't be fair either, because both Drs. Cooper and Ortlund are monergist.

🙏🏼

My favorite KZreadrs collaborating!

Gavin should do a series of debates with catholics over his list he mentions at 25:30

The section on the 43,207 denominations was good.

Hi, Gavin. I enjoy your channel and your perspective. I noticed when talking about American Individualism, Jordan mentioned groups like Seventh-day Adventists and Jehovah’s Witnesses. I am a Seventh-day Adventist and I consider myself a Protestant and my church considers itself Protestant. Groups like LDS and Jehovah’s Witnesses, as far as I understand, do not consider themselves Protestant. Furthermore we believe that the majority of true Christians are not within our church. We believe that we are continuing the reformation to draw closer to Jesus Christ in these last days. I just don’t think we fit in with these other groups, though I understand why some do group us together. I guess I was just curious where you stand on this and if you have ever given a thoughtful examination to our beliefs. While obviously we would have disagreements I think our beliefs stand up to the test of the Bible in a way that LDS and Jehovah’s Witnesses do not since they reject parts of the Bible outright. Thank you and God bless you and your family.

"Just slap some Newman on it". The Other Paul has been corrupting me.

How about a discussion on the Eucharist?

@harrygarris6921

Жыл бұрын

I think for a Lutheran and a Baptist that would be more of a debate than a discussion

@kirstenfondren9226

Жыл бұрын

And herein lies the problem

What about different views of communion and baptism and everything? Does that mean that God changes for those different views? Or does that mean that one is valid and the other isn't? Just a question I was wondering about. Thank you for the video!

I will truly never understand Roman Catholics coming to a channel that specifically defends Protestantism in order to be offended. Weird.

@catkat740

Жыл бұрын

Maybe it’s since there is more in this video about Catholicism than about Protestantism. Defenders gonna defend.

@avataranime101

Жыл бұрын

@@catkat740 I understand Roman Catholics are gonna watch videos like this. It's important to know what the other side thinks. But I don't go onto a Roman Catholic Apologist's channel coming in to defend my Protestantism. I know I'm about to watch a video where the creator and their audience don't think highly of Protestants. I just come to listen and maybe have my mind changed on some things. What I don't do is go to a Catholic page and tell everyone I think they're wrong and try to convert them to Protestantism. Almost every video Gavin or Jordan does there's a bunch of Roman Catholics attacking Protestants/Protestantism, telling everyone why they're wrong and trying to convince people to convert to Catholicism.

@catkat740

Жыл бұрын

@@avataranime101 I was actually looking forward to learning about Protestantism with this particular video. But the question, “What is Protestantism?” was hardly mentioned! Where were the details? I wish they would’ve said Protestantism is a,b,c. They could’ve fleshed out the few characteristics that Gavin did mention(the five solas, priesthood of all believers, etc) I honestly would like to know what they think the Church IS instead of all the things it is not (namely Roman Catholic). Maybe their description made sense to most people and it just went over my head though 😂 Also I have to add that I think Catholics feel the need to defend ourselves when Gavin (and others) show such concern when people convert to Catholicism but not when they convert to other forms of Protestantism.

@davidjanbaz7728

Жыл бұрын

@@catkat740 converting is first of all a loaded term : you don't convert into a denomination: you convert into Christianity and that doesn't change from one denomination to another. Second Roman Catholics do say they teach a different Gospel that is based on works. Protestantism as a whole believe s in Salvation is by Grace and works are a result of this Salvation not a cause of Salvation or cooperation that you secure by your works. Salvation is the cause of you having acceptable good works: non Christians don't have acceptable good works or everyone could just earn their own Salvation by them. Jesus Atonement would not be nessasary. There is a big difference in switching from Protestant to Catholicism: than just changing churches in Protestantism.

@catkat740

Жыл бұрын

@@davidjanbaz7728 Can you quote where Catholics say that?

I totally disagree…, however, strong Protestantism is definitely more satisfying to argue against. Love You Dudes!❤

Dr. Ortlund, your tongue slip provides a genius business opportunity for a line of sweets: Augsburg Confection 😂

@Mygoalwogel

Жыл бұрын

Have you ever been given Testamints in Sunday School as a kid?

🙌🏻👍🏼

20:14 I would argue that since the Reformation there have been more accretions in Protestantism(both in quantity and in theological distance) than in pre-Reformation Catholicism. Actually instead of adding it’s more of a chipping away at fundamentals which one could argue is worse.

You need to get Roger Olson on to give the Arminian perspective on Protestantism

❤️❤️❤️

@truth unites Hello Dr Ortlund. Would you like to talk about the "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification" from 1999? Greetings from Germany. 🙋‍♂️

👍🏼

48:20 regarding the 30k denominations, I recommend the video by @ReadyToHarvest which goes into detail about where the numbers come from and how to interpret them: kzread.info/dash/bejne/aYqrk61_p6i6ktI.html

The point on Roman Catholics painting every heretical group as Protestant, I think for me, I draw the line at Noncreedal Nondenominational Christianity. The Nondenominational Classification of Churches also seems to me to be a conflation of two movements: 1. The Restoration Movement, like the Stone-Campbell Churches of Christ, Christian Disciples, Adventists, Plymouth Brethren, etc. that teach Bible only anti-creedalism. 2. The Quakers and Quaker derived movements like the Neo-Charismatics that teach the "Inner Light". The Neo-Charismatic movement actually has no connection to either the First Wave Charismatics (Pentecostals) or the Second Wave Charismatics (Anglicans). John Wimber was a Quaker. Therefore, I think there are only 6 real Protestant Traditions, anything beyond this is something else entirely, for which we don't yet have a name: - Lutheran - Reformed - Anglican - Methodist - Baptist - Pentecostal These Protestant groups make up about 19% of the World Christian Population, with Nondenominational Christianity being about 13%, but people will group all these together and say that Protestantism takes up 32% of the pie. I think it makes a huge difference recognising what is and what is not Protestantism proper in order for there to be intellectually honest discussion.

@joecoolmccall

Жыл бұрын

I come from the Restoration Movement/ Stone-Campbell movement, and while I understand the history of the movement, I think ultimately it still comes out of the Protestant umbrella, even though the intellectual development wasn't contextually against Roman Catholicism, but denominationalism in general in the 1800's.

@IAmisMaster

Жыл бұрын

I agree, which is why I am not Protestant. All those six groups are unbiblical and erroneous.

22:35 min mark i had the feeling the professor was going to bring up when Paul and Barnabas in acts 15 verse and on had troubles with some telling the Gentiles have to be circumcised in order to be saved. So they journey to Jerusalem to settle this matter. Later on peter stood up to talk to settle the matter. The assembly went silent the James tells the assembly what Simeon "peter" means. So of course we see peter settling the matter.

56:46 1:00:58

00:44:55 Protestant Views of Eastern Orthodoxy

Dr. Ortlund, can you please reference an example of magisterial teaching justifying violence, as mentioned in the list at 26.00?

@Mygoalwogel

Жыл бұрын

Innocent III,encyclical _Etsi nostri navicula,_ 1204 "We destine specially to this, that *the material sword may be sanctioned* to supply the defect of the spiritual sword, and you, besides the temporal glory which you will attain from so pious and praiseworthy a work, may obtain that pardon for sins, which we grant as an indulgence for the remission of their sins, since we want those who faithfully shall have *laboured against the heretics* to rejoice in the *same* indulgence as we grant as an indulgence for those crossing the sea for the aid of the Holy Land." Lateran Council 4 Canon 3: Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be *admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure,* that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and *to the best of their ability to exterminate* (pro viribus exterminare studebunt) in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church.

@ourstodo1234

Жыл бұрын

@@Mygoalwogel Thanks

What I don’t really understand is how different Protestant sects can have different definitions of what the Church is, and how that doesn’t categorically separate the them as two groups opposed to one another. For instance, Calvin and Luther have slightly different conclusions on what constitutes a true church but one thing they agree on is that the true church will rightly administer the sacraments. In my mind, this just begs the question. What does it mean to rightly administer the sacraments? And if two groups have two views of the sacraments that are diametrically opposed to one another (Lutherans and Baptist’s, for example), how does this not lead one to conclude that they are not unified? By their own definitions, they can’t recognize the other as being in a true church because they don’t see each other as rightly administering the sacraments. I don’t see how this can be reconciled, but I’m open to hearing an explanation.

@sillysyriac8925

Жыл бұрын

There is no answer. Read the problem of authority in the continental reformers.

given that these two "protestants" believe their group is the right one over the other.... can someone again tell me why protestantism is good???? 🤔🤔

@geordiewishart1683

Жыл бұрын

Maybe because regardless of denomination, it focuses on scripture and the atoning work of Christ, rather than saints, relics, beads and papal superstitions?

@Ternz_TV

Жыл бұрын

@@geordiewishart1683 who said catholics are not focused on christ? have you seen the catholic church LITURGICAL CALENDAR YEAR? Its literally all about christ for 365 days.

Regarding Rome’s "changing" views of Salvation, the idea of non-formal union with the Catholic Church is not really new. We see it from St. Ambrose on Valentinian, St. Augustine on catechumens, St. Bernard of Clairvaux in the 12th century, St. Aquinas in the 13th (and incorporated into Trent), St. Robert Bellarmine in the 15th/16th century with further extrapolation in use of terms of union "in desire/in voto" and "in actual/in re" (and not really directed towards Protestants of the time). Pope Pius IX in the encyclicals Singulari Quidem (1856) and Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (1863) speaks of invincible ignorance for those not in formal union with the Church. This may possibly be the first time the Church integrated the ideas of non-formal union with invincible ignorance and how that intersects with “extra Ecclesiam nulla salus", but not the first time these concepts were introduced. And then again with obviously Vatican II another 100 years later (with the Boston heresy/Feeneyism condemned in between). Pope Benedict XVI's 2005 Christmas address to Roman curia, which goes into difference between hermeneutic of discontinuity and hermeneutic of reform, is worth the read, too. It's not too long if you jump to the part where it says "In his Discourse closing the Council".