Quite possibly one of the greatest questions the brilliant Socrates had while arguing against the super-armored sophists

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely, our boy Socrates held strong, an inspiration to us all!

@PikaStu666

Жыл бұрын

All we are, is dust in the wind, dude…

@kroooassant9899

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground You'll regret not playing Neverawake

@304783

Жыл бұрын

I'd say in the platonic dialogues socrates is definitely dodging some of the tougher questions, so that makes them at least proto-shmups.

@mikelpelaez

11 ай бұрын

​@@304783absolutely, and then Plato discovered manipulating the shot direction of the enemies when he wrote the dialogues

Plato: "It's a game about shooting them." Diogenes, holding up Call of Duty: "Behold Plato's shmup!"

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Ha lol!

The 2 chans that got me in to the genre. Pretty much only playing shoot em ups because these guys. These guys got me to appreciate so many new games at once that it fired me up to be playing games again. I had no idea so many great games even existed. Like it was a chapter in gaming I completely skipped over.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I m really happy to hear that my friend. Now you have life before shmups and life after shmups :-)

@jonnyeh

Жыл бұрын

Same for me. I’m just getting into the genre over the past 6 months and there’s so much to learn about and discover.

It’s like music genres where a definition works well for many years. But as the genre gets older, ppl will have to get creative with how they approach the genre so it sounds new. So that definition will get blurry over time. So now the genre becomes an umbrella of multiple subgenres that are variations.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Exactly dj! Great comparison!

@naegling

9 ай бұрын

I was just thinking about metal. Like metal fans don't even agree about what is the first metal band, Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath came out often in those discussions, but Led Zeppelin don't think of themselves as a heavy metal band. And there's always snobs in the metal fandom that don't recognize some metal subgenres as "true metal".

Two legends unite! Shmups is the ultimate genre of risk and reward, love and heartache, euphoria and dysphoria. I’m so bad at shmups, but I can’t get enough of them. Funnily enough, KZread certainly doesn’t understand what a Shmup is, as underneath this video it’s suggesting I play Doom 🤦‍♂️

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Thank you my friend!!! Yes shmups are the good stuff, uncut and pure unlike other games and genres coming out now. Also the doom classification is sort of a joke of mine ha

@CatzyCatzy

5 ай бұрын

I have Kinja Run which is half runner and half shmup...they are failing a bit as they are not understanding comprehensively what to add.

I recently made an indie top-down shmup with keyboard-and-mouse controls. A weird thing is instead of auto-scrolling, I went with the beat-em-up system. You're locked into a direction until you enter a room, then the screen locks on to that location, then the enemies spawn on a set of timers, and the screen won't move until you defeat all the enemies. It still feels very shmup like because you have to dodge everything in the space you are given rather than retreat far enough that the patterns become much less dense. So I think a more precise way to describe it instead of 'auto-scrolling' is space is artificially limited. Like the difference between boxing and a street-fight is in boxing you have that ring where you can't leave while in a street-fight you can run up and down the street and potentially turn it into cardio.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Oh fun! i'll see if I can define what your game is, or at least try. So it has 8 way movement it sounds like, so check there. No autoscroll though, it sounds like you used arenas for the level design. And you have projectile focused combat. Calculating ... calculating ... it's an arena shooter :-) A lot of twin stick games are arena shooters, like nex machina.

@artursjoblom5142

10 ай бұрын

Sound like a fun game, is it on steam?

I was supposed to attend a lecture today on International Finance and it’s impact on Globalization and supply chain stabilization but that would have been a total waste of time, this Podcast has a greater impact on the world!

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I m glad you have seen the light lol

Hmm. Caravan Shooters have an interesting relationship with this abstraction of auto-scrolling. Because a soft aspect of a caravan is the potential to impact wave frequency by killing them faster, which is effectively the player controlling the pace. Scrolling is definitely the most abstract and difficult to quantify of the classifications.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I'll try to parse this out, as I think I know what you mean. So "caravan" is a style of level design. So it can be applied to both shmups and non shmups. So a caravan shmup is a shmup that contains this style of level design, like spriggan. However, you can apply caravan level design to another genre like an fps, and get a caravan first person shooter, like devil daggers :-) So shmups and be caravan or not, it's a style of level design.

@EdgardR.

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Have you seen HYPER DEMON? I'm grateful we're getting more and more different kind of shooter games lately. DUSK was a great boomer shooter, Amid Evil a great spiritual successor to Heretic with it's simple enough RPG stuff, two great FPC(aravan)S(hooters), that Star-Fox like game, etc. I stopped playing them and came around shmups because FPS have been samey for years and years (and still are).

Learning about shmups

@ungabungus01

Жыл бұрын

Learning about shmups x2

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

best thing to learn about :-)

Regardless of anything I feel like In the Hunt has to be a shmup at the end of the day if not for any other reason that it’s almost impossible to categorize it otherwise. Also yes Timmy should return.

@opa-age

Жыл бұрын

I dunno, maybe submarine shooter? Yeah i agree its one of the hardest games to categorize.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I agree it is a shmup, I would just add the qualifier of manual scrolling shmup, as that does change the level design fundamentally and open up a strategy of gameplay impossible in autoscrolling shmups.

Traditional roguelikes have the same problem. Nowadays anything procedurally generated or with permadeath is called a roguelike. The OG roguelikers now need a new word.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Oh man yeah that's a bummer. Whenever I hear roguelike I immediately think generated or with permadeath so yeah a different term is probably needed.

@nemoguy

Жыл бұрын

More like nu-roguelikes need a new genre name for themselves

@PiesliceProductions

Жыл бұрын

Roguelite?

@Tehstroyer

Жыл бұрын

Ironically, the Berlin Interpretation gives a specific definition for the genre, or at least a proposal of one (maybe a bit too rigid). Didn't help at all to save the name from the current procedurally-generated action games. Sometimes even to the dismay of developers of the new games who didn't intend to replace the Roguelikes in the eyes of general public.

@Splozy

Жыл бұрын

"Traditional Roguelikes" is pretty useful and concise. Roguelite is there but not useful because it sounds too similar, casuals never picked up on it. Biggest problem with Roguelites is like you say, they are not very systems driven and the similarities are superficial. It's weird because TBOI kickstarted the trend but that is a very systems heavy game that pays homage to Roguelikes, but with action combat.

ShooTinG ! I don’t think it’s embarrassing to not be able to readily define something when so many variables apply. Shooter has been hijacked for better or worse but that doesn’t mean it still doesn’t apply. I like to say shooting game out of respect as well as just to invite the question so as to be able to elaborate on the genre I love. Also Rogha Amored Force is godlike, super sick game.

@chuckufarlie8215

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. STG. Shooting game.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I think it's a little embaressing just because when you are trying to explain the genre to new players, what do you even say? I got owned pretty hard on that speedrunning podcast ha. At least now I can say, it's a game with flying 8 way movement that autoscrolls and is focused on dodging projectiles :-)

Ah! I get it, in the hunt is a 'sub' genre 😉

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Lol, it s a sub shmup

Before I found out the SHMUP term, I use to just call them airplane shooters. I always had trouble explaining what type of game it was to people growing up. I was always like 'the airplane shooting game when you fight big bosses!' 😂 Now I use it more interchangeably than anything

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yeah there are some really old genre definitions that require a plane sprite ha. Which makes no sense since the visual choice of using a ship sprite is just a graphical style. Mushihimesama would end up not being a shmup ha. I think cave really shifted this perception later on

It's a super interesting debate. If you talk to video game fans in Japan, they will undoubtedly call games like Space Invaders and Galaga STGs, as that's where the genre name started. Then after Xevious and Scramble came in existence these were then classified in the same genre, be it of the (auto)scrolling variety. The equivalent western term shoot 'em up originated a bit later in the 80s, introduced by influential British gaming magazines and this then was abbreviated (often begrudgingly as Mark says) to shmups. So to most people, shmups now means horizontally or vertically scrolling 2D shooting games. I myself have the habit to call every "STG" a shoot 'em up (because I'm old): from Galaxian to Robotron 2084 to 1942 to Fantasy Star to Raiden to Blazing Star to Mushihimesama Futari. They just fall in different categories or subgenres of 2D shooters. Smash TV is an arena shoot 'em up with free 8-way aim (where the zako don't even shoot but rush you horde style), Defender is a looping, bidirectional horizontally scrolling shoot 'em up, Desert Strike is a multiple objective based, multidirectionally scrolling isometric shoot 'em up, Gunvein is a vertically autoscrolling bullet hell shoot 'em up, etc. Or you could just short hand it and call them all shmups, STGs or 2D shooters. Then when we get to games like Space Harrier and Star Fox, they most definitely share a lot of DNA with 2D, autoscrolling shooters, so I tend to call them 3D shoot 'em ups. And Wolfenstein 3D and Doom are interesting as I think they are most definitely evolutions of arcade, into-the-screen shooting games like Operation Wolf and Cabal, but now you can freely walk around the environments. When Mark talked about proto-shmups, that also stood out to me. There is a discussion to be had about the phenomenon that part of the audience, including developers, tends to ignore or gloss over most 2D shooters made before the late 80s and part of the audience, again including developers, tends to ignore all genre advancements made after that (which is often how you get euroshmups, where devs create their own branch of evolution with the "advancements" they think they're making). That could be fodder for another podcast discussion (which I'd happily be a part of lol)

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

The stg is a really interesting category because fps are less relevant in Japan so it s basically their umbrella term for shooter but since fps never took over as much as in the west it seems like the term still applies to 2d shooter genres like shmups and run and guns. I wonder if they consider twin stick shooters stg, I would guess that they do

@michielkroder4031

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground But then third person shooters are more of a thing there and they don't call those STGs, I don't think. They probably put them in the 'Action Game' category.

Love the content!!! Shmups are one of my favorite genres.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Thank you so much my friend!! Shmups are my fav genre, followed closely by beat em' ups and run and guns :-)

Genre definitions are really loose for many things, with many works that don't squarely fit in some or fit between some, and a multitude of subgenres to confuse things more. They best serve as a series of tags that can tell you if you might be interested in something, rather than a neat box that everything can be classified with. Just look at the difficulty people who call themselves fans of "Character Action" games go through - they can't even agree on a name for their subgenre!

I'm two months late to this discussion, but I think your younger self may have been onto something by defining shmups as "Raiden-like" games. Consider a similar debate trying to define what an RPG is. Ultimately, an RPG is a game that includes rules or elements derived from Dungeons & Dragons, such as: a system (or systems) for increasing the player-character's attributes (including experience levels, equipment upgrades, etc.); magic spells (or similar special moves) that draw upon depleting resources, such as magic points or spell pools; turn-based actions; dice rolls (or some other quasi-random mathematical function) to determine the outcome of player actions; an in-game economy, including the ability to collect and spend in-game currency; dungeon exploration; etc. Games will often use some but not all of these elements. What separates an RPG from a game that simply has "RPG-elements" is how many of these elements appear in the game and how strongly the gameplay focuses on these elements. However, I don't think there's a hard and fast rule and about how many of these elements must appear before a game stops being an RPG - it's more of a spectrum between games that are very DND-like at one end and not very DND-like at the other. I think you could apply similar logic to shmups by considering how similar a game is to an archetypal example of the genre, such as Raiden. The key elements of Raiden's gameplay are: auto-scrolling; unrestrained eight-way movement; shooting enemies; dodging projectiles; multiple weapon types, all of which may be upgraded; one-hit death for the player; a focus on scoring as a key social element of gameplay; a limited stock of bombs that cancel enemy bullets within their blast radius; etc. We could say that a game that has all or many of these elements - a game that is very Raiden-like - is clearly a shmup, but as a game loses these elements (and becomes less Raiden-like) it will seem less like a shmup. With this in mind, let's evaluate In the Hunt again. In the Hunt has unrestrained eight-way movement, shooting enemies, dodging projectiles, multiple upgradeable weapon types, one hit deaths, and a focus on scoring. It lacks auto-scrolling (though it has a timer that compels the player to move forward, which is a similar mechanic) and bombs. All elements considered, I think In the Hunt is ultimately very Raiden-like and therefore a shmup. I think this is more of a holistic approach instead of treating certain elements as sine qua non, which seems to risk calcifying the genre and excluding games that are, on the whole, very shmup-like.

That dun dun dun edit when the guy asks you what a shmup is😂 also, I really like the further exploration of shmups on this channel into linguistics and etymology. Every hobby every needs its own syntax and lexicon to be able to actually accurately describe very specific experiences to others in the same community. this was a superrrr fun episode to listen to, you can navigate disagreements really well.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much chase, what an awesome comment. I agree about the importance of syntax and being able to pitch the genre to new players in an accurate manner

@chasepalumbo2929

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground exactly! You’ve really helped me nail down exactly what I like, dislike, and am curious about within the genre. I definitely look forward to the next video, thx for the reply!

Please more with Junkie and regularly.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

No worries I will continue to bug him every so often to get him on the channel lol! He s a very gracious dude so I don t want to overdue it though :-)

I played many SHMUP games, but Rayforce series are the most favorite because there are the depth of shooting mechanic different from other games that we cannot shoot ground units directly unless using lock - on attack.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Rayforce is a classic of the genre!! no doubt about it, i actually talk about the game in a recent review: kzread.info/dash/bejne/pWmrr9N7nb2nm5s.html

my favorite shmup is nier automata, sonic frontiers being a close second

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I'd say nier has a shmup section, but is not a shmup overall :-)

Hi,Mexican fan here, I called them "juegos de navecitas"(little spaceship games),yeah I know not all of them you play as a ship or plane,but is easy to describe them like that here,thanks both for the great content

Thank you so much for having this discussion about the criterias, essence, feeling, pacing and everything that could, should or should not define a shmup. That whas really very interesting. And thank you both again for your channels!

Great job on this video! I love how you used your three criteria while SJ used a game's core design to define shmups.

More content with Shmup Junkie please you guys are my 2 favourite shmup channels. 😀👌 But please try to think about not talking over him and interrupting him (im a adhd maniac myself so im the same way btw, i know its hard lol)

I haven't really played many shmups, but I really like the amount of detail you go into on games, especially the more game design theory videos. I've been playing Ikaruga, which is really good.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I m glad you appreciate these types of vids my friend! I like doing reviews but want the channel to also offer design/theory content as well :-)

Hmm, let's see if I can give a decent shmup definition.. A game in which the player can freely move an abstract avatar in a two dimensional, but usually moving plane, to avoid and potentially destroy hazards such as enemies and projectiles, sometimes avoiding environmental hazards in the process. Great video BTW. You both are massive assets to the genre and we really appreciate the time and effort you put into it!

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Great stuff! Though I would make sure to work an auto scroll into the definition as well :-) also thanks for the great comment and tuning in :-)

Interesting, thank you. I am more on the design perspective, what is intended primarily. For me Galaga has to be 100% shmup. My proposition in three rules : - Player attacks enemies mainly at a distance. For our threat it can be everything which can collide with us (ships, bullets, scenery). For our attacks the distance can be very short, like "melee" attacks but it's not a part of our sprite which deform itself to attack (in Street Fighter 2 you can hit an ennemie in the arm while he's attacking, we don't want that here). In some case the player sprite can momentarily crash into enemies to attack but for a short period of time and without deforming the sprite like in fighting games, it involves moving, not the attack button. - So the collision mask have to be constant and perfectly visible, unlike FPS. If there are several 'characters" to choose, the differences are mainly in the projectile type. No emphasis on size and speed differences like in other genres, to design one game around a constant type of player sprite during the gameplay. - Ennemi patterns have to be clearly identifiable in space and time, which means well designed around space and time, recognizable, unlike FPS where the notion of IA is more prevailing.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Awesome stuff! Though I think you need to include the elements of the 8 way movement and autoscroll otherwise games like metal slug are also entered into the shmup genre.

Great video and was expected there were many conclusions but none was definitiva. In the end Gameplay is what defines a shmup. Glad to see the discussion between 2 people of diferent generations and diferent tastes on shumps speaking about this topic because the opinions are more diverse. Best regards to both.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Thank you very much for the kind comment Pedro!

Awesome video as usual! A couple of thoughts: 1) The term I've heard most commonly to describe Descent and Descent-clones is "6 degree of freedom (6dof) games". Although I've always just called them "Descent games" because basically nothing else plays anything like them. 2) Serious Sam is one of the examples of an FPS that embodies the "arcade shmup spirit" probably more than anything in the entire FPS genre, since most everything involves dodging projectiles (hitscan enemies have to be dealt with very quickly in open areas), AND it even has score (in the shmup sense) and score modifiers (things like increasing monster health %, increasing base difficulty, and playing without quicksave/quickloads all increase your score multiplier). 3) What would you call Out Zone? Non-autoscrolling shmup? But then that would give it the same label as In the Hunt, and maybe you could say that it's kinda a vertical version of In the Hunt in spirit but they feel very different to me.

@opa-age

Жыл бұрын

I would say Outzone is not a true shmup. Its more like Commando or Time Soldiers and those are not shmups.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Thank you my friend!! Yeah decent seems really interesting, like a 3d defender style game or something. I agree that there are some fps that have a lot of arcade design influence, like devil daggers! So on outzone, you are correct! It is a non auto scrolling shmup, just like in the hunt. That being said they do play differently from one another because one is horizontal and one is vertical, so you could add that as an extra qualifier, but they both are of the same genre like how r type and dodonpachi are the same genre, despite having different level design and pace :-)

I'm not one to dwell into labels too much as well, but I had fun with this discussion. Thanks for the footages too~

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I can def respect that!! I basically like to attempt to organize this type of information, but not be too caught up on it if that makes sense. Thanks for tuning in my friend!

I’ve been playing a single screen shoot ‘em up called nova drift a ton lately and got me thinking about this a game. Got me to listen through again, enjoyable video and love the collaborations

Great video guys, it’s always interesting to hear the differing perspectives from you both but Junkie has it nailed for me!! I’m in my late 40’s so completely relate to and agree with junkies comments on how he saw shooting games back when they were first introduced. The genre was always ‘shoot ‘em ups’ to me but to differentiate that genre now, STG or Shmups is how I describe them as it’s become THE defining term, like it or not (I still prefer the term shoot em up). I also agree that a games description should be defined by its core design features as junkie said. If the aim of the game was primarily to shoot everything thats a threat to survival and earn score as a result then that’s a ‘Shmup’. A shooting game in 3D (Starfox, Panzer Dragoon, Sin and Punishment) is still a ‘Shmup’ if it’s linear as the sole aim is still just to shoot everything that’s a threat to earn score or survive. If the aim is to navigate a level by finding the easiest or more direct route to the end then that’s a ‘Platformer’. Although I would call games such as Contra an ‘Action Platformer’, probably in relation to the action movies of the 80s and 90s where body counts were everything, and to differentiate between a Mario style ‘Platformer’ from an age rated point of view. Metal slug probably would still be described as a ‘Shmup’ but ‘Run and Gun’ seems to be the modern description, it displays very little platforming but you still control the pace of the action by scrolling the screen yourself and primarily shooting. This kind of sub genre description was used a lot for me when I worked in the industry at retail level so to better describe to the customer a genre of game. I’m not a believer of making a thing more complicated than it is but I guess that’s my age talking haha!!

Awesome video guys! Keep up the great content :)

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Thank you my friend!! Glad you tuned in, I really enjoy making vids like this

You guys are the best! Love it!

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Thank you my dude!!! It was a really fun ep to record

I just got back and got straight up to listening to this. Good talk, I think your criteria for what a "Shmup" is pretty much narrows it down. But. I usually do not like to talk about genres in videogames because they are the most fuzzy and abstract thing there is. So I try to push "Shmups" (or any kind of game) with more than just it's genre defining bullet points.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I don't want people to be too caught up on the definition to where now we don't recognize and enjoy games that fall a little bit outside of it. Rather I think it is a good framework to discuss the genre's design and how these games relate to eachother. So we can for example, say now that star fox 64 is a shmup and doom is not. For a long time it was impossible to explain why star fox 64 is a shmup but fps are not. Now we can show that star fox matches all 3 criteria, whereas doom only matches 1.

I think one type of game that molded their own genre are the likes of Forsaken and stuff. 6DOF basically. If you were to add the autoscrolling factor, they'd become a 3D Shmup

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

absolutely! I looked that game up and it's basically the 3d version of defender, that's what I would compare it to :-)

I'm at the 47 minute mark, and this reminds me of what is an rpg debate, or even one my friend and I had years ago about what is a horror game. but shmups? I kinda always thought it was straightforward. The genre has some pretty unique characteristics that it alone has and I thought that is what made it stand froms others. Interesting how the perception is looked upon.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Oh what is an rpg debate is really interesting. I'm less versed in the genre but I remember it coming up on a podcast I listened to once and they couldn't decide if the legend of zelda is an rpg or not, that's an interesting case.

Space Invader type games I consider those shootemups too. There are also games that scroll but you can only move left and right. A game like Contra is a 2D platformer.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I would add the prefix of protoshmups to them, because only being able to move left and right really changes the way level design and core combat works, since there is no longer the concept of screen position really

Great video as ever from the 2 of you! I think that having criteria and specificity is a good thing going forward. When this is left more open to interpretation, it becomes a problem on digital storefronts when trying to search by genre. This is rife on Steam and itch, where games get the wrong tag because they *look* like a certain genre but don’t conform to the specific gameplay standards that you would expect. This can make it really hard to find good shmups/stgs as you’re having to wade through games where one enemy fires a radial bullet pattern and it gets tagged as a bullet hell, when it’s actually a roguelike😅 This problem also exists for fighting games/beatemups/character action games. Case in point, Sifu is up for the “Best Fighting Game” award when it’s not even a fighting game…

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Exactly my point Stephen! Yes we lived in a genre based market place so it s important to define the genre I think for the sake of marketing at the very least. Also sifu winning any award, especially a fighting game award, is silly

I've heard claim that the word shmup started in the July 1985 issue of Zzap64! magazine. Don't know if that is true or not, but its a good place for historians to start research. Great video guys!

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Ohh thanks for the heads up!! Yeah I heard it was some time of magazine, would be cool to track down the exact issue

@thepostman7539

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground On a side note, can I request a review of Sine Mora, if you have ever played that? I've really been getting into it again - hated it at first, but then after practice and sticking with it, I think it has elements of Treasure games and Einhander, and feel it is very underrated. (Although with your criteria it fits a Euroshmup ;)

This is a deep topic y'all dived into. My introduction to the term "schmup" was when I got back into game collecting after a 5+ yr hiatus. I did an internet search for "shooter" & saw it was all FPS titles popping up & was like WTF!? Where are the "shooters!?" I think after watching some KZread videos or a Wiki search I learned the popular term is now "schmup" & I was baffled at how weird that word is. I never thought of the term "schmup" being a word that was taken from people that grew up in the 90s who played space ship shooters.

Here to see Shmup Junkie!

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Glad you tuned in :-) he's a fun guest to have on

I'm giving my age away by saying that I've been playing these things since the 1970's and I hate the term Shmup. I've always used *horizontal or vertical scrolling arcade shooter* A Shmup is a pure game. You are not playing to enjoy the story or narrative, you are playing to achieve survival and score. Your purpose it to increase both - to get further and score higher. The story is bolted on as an extra for cutscenes etc and to brand and differentiate one game from another. Its roots are in Space Invaders. Every Shmup is an evolution of the Space Invaders formula. A first person shooter is just that. I'd never call Call of Duty a shooter, it's an FPS.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I can definitely respect using shooter as the umbrella term and then specifying fps as such. I do agree that it is weird that fps are now "shooters" by default

_MAJOR_ difference between how FPS and SHmups work in general: - FPS have 2 types of menaces in regards to bullets... they're either HITSCAN or PROJECTILE based. This is a major difference to take into account. Most attacks in FPS games are hitscan so there's little to no focus on dodging or manipulating the AI behind the bullets (not the case with _projectiles_). We also have to take into account that all attacks in FPS games are directly aimed at the player (since you don't have a hitbox really, you can't focus on dodging in the same way). - Shmups have both contact damage (for enemies in your plane, Xevious added the grounded enemies) and PROJECTILE based menaces. Now let's focus on projectile based attacks, or "bullets" to make it simpler. Bullets comes in different logic cycles: They're either aimed (hence why we "tap dodge"), aimed in reference (as to conceal your movement), static (which you have to learn) or random (which usually makes you "kill the threat" before it even happens). There are a lot of FPS that focus on projectile based attacks with Shmup-like logic cycles, but they're few and far in between. These FPS games tend to have a similar behaviour from the player in regards to how to use movement and space to manipulate said logic (Mothergunship and Tower of Guns come to mind). In any case, nice debate. I hope the comment section becomes more spicy as time goes on.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Great stuff as usual ubo! I really like that you brought up hitscan with fps, that fundamentally changes how they play since you no longer can dodge. Hence the rise of cover systems in fps

Sweet-ass cross-over. and nice Brutal Doom cameo :]]

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Thank you my friend! I do want to cover brutal doom on the channel at some point :-)

Excellent video TEU! :)

Shmups are defined by 3 primary elements: the Unit being controlled by the player. The Enemies which are automated by the game. And the Field on which the unit and enemies interact. Since this could describe just about any game you'd have to define these a little better. The player or each player controls a single Unit on a 2 dimensional Field. The Unit has omni-direcitonal 2D movement on the Field which typically auto-scrolls or atomically progresses. As the Field scrolls Enemies, projectiles, and terrain obstacles appear. The player controls the Unit to navigate the Field avoiding and destroying Enemies, projectiles, and terrain obstacles using the omni-directional movement and the various weapons at the disposal of the Unit. Each level or zone - a sequence of levels - often end with a battle against a single powerful enemy referred to as a boss. The primary objective of the shoot em up is to avoid enemies, projectiles, and obstacles, power up the ship, and defeat the boss, with higher level play focusing on high scores and 1cc runs where only 1 life is used. Some games have a health bar or shield system while others have a strict 1 shot death. The methods for mastering shmup play involve memorizing enemy, projectile, and terrain obstacle patterns, understanding the limits of the Unit's hitbox and movement speed, and optimizing the use of the Units abilities and weapons. Then you could go into more detail about each of the elements: The Unit almost always faces directly upward in vertical shmups or forward in horizonal shmups. The unit typically has a primary shot which shoots directly forward. The Unit may have as many as 7 simultaneous weapons and abilities in some games. The unit has a hit box, which if struck by an enemy, projectile, or terrain hazard will be destroyed costing a life, unless the unit has a shielding or health bar mechanic. The Unit often has unique abilities or weapon which defines individual shmups. The enemies frequently drop various power up and resources for the player which enhance the ship or provide additional uses of limited weapons. The enemies may fire intricate patterns of projectiles which the player must dodge or destroy, this type of game is often referred to as a bullet hell shmup. The field was traditionally vertically oriented with a 3:4 aspect ratio and has cropped sides on current standard 16:9 monitors referred to as a vertical shoot em up; but may be horizontally oriented and displayed as full screen on current standard monitors - a horizontal shoot em up. The field is not open indefinitely and is restricted in the dimension perpendicular to the auto-scrolling direction which either no or limited movement allowed at the sides of the field. This restriction forces the player to engage with the enemies, projectiles, and terrain obstacles.

@CatzyCatzy

5 ай бұрын

That seems right...I have been playing 2 mobile games. Both vertical shooters: wing fighter and Kinja Run...take a look if you want. I find them as a shmup too.

Nonono, In the Hunt is a sidescrolling Commando-like with proto-bullet hell DNA! Doom (or Catacomb 3D) I would say evolved out of Catacomb and to an extent Dangerous Dave, mainly a 3D evolution of 2D maze/free-roaming shooters, although a major change is the hit scan (immediate hit) weapons. It's no longer about "no miss" there but managing your health while exploring for keys and hidden rooms.

This conversation sounds like me & other musicians arguing about deathcore vs black thrash vs technical death metal etc etc etARGH! I love it.

I was really surprised the first time i tried IN THE HUNT. I was waiting for the scrolling at least 10 seconds because i thought it was an intro :) But, it's clearly a shmup !

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

that is funny ha. I agree that it is a shmup, just a specific sub-genre of shmup I'd call manual scrolling, as having the autoscroll fundimentally changes how a game plays. Even though in the hunt has strict timers that motivate you to move, it's still not the same as having a 100% reliable force pushing the level forward, the timing element of the game is shifted by that change.

I just realized rail shooters are a subgenre of a niche genre that no one actually knows the definition for anymore 😓

Time to sit before da mastas

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

sit back, relax, and enjoy my friend.

@Godsgood111

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground thanks for putting that together. It felt like hanging out with friends and talking games, the important stuff. Happy Thanksgiving

Very interesting topic. Makes you wonder what the limits of game genre categories even mean ultimately. For instance, what is your opinion on The Binding of Isaac? Have you played it, or played much of it? Because while it is a twin-stick arena shooter, it is also a roguelite dungeon-crawler rpg with heavy emphasis on resource management and decision-making, meta knowledge of items, item interactions, manipulation of chance elements and cryptic game mechanics to better secure a better outcome or opportunity down the line while being on timers, and whole lots of other weird stuff. Like it is a highly unusual and hybridized game, and the shooting/dodging is oftentimes quite secondary in design priority or emphasis (though it is always present), which seems very deliberate and a point of balance with all of its other mechanics that have absolutely nothing to do with any type of shooting game design whatsoever, though oddly enough there will still be moments where the game utilizes even bullet hell elements and autoscrolling in a traditional shmup vein. I just think it's such a singular game (or was before others started to copycat it) that it is almost impossible to categorize, even though it is still very much in the oldschool shooter genre family in very significant ways, and so is technically a "shooter". It even bends the rules of different game genre conventions through its hybridizations, not only shooting games.

Interesting video. Really enjoy both your channels. Im not a shooter purist so the perspective is really cool to see. Im only about 16 minutes in. A shooter to me is usually an auto scrolling game where shooting is the main attack. I think that usually covers what I call shooters. I still call them that in my reviews and tutorials, which probably came from terms used in 90's magazines back then. Take two similiar games like Super Smash TV and Gun.Smoke. Super Smash TV stops the action in each room and has you clear out a room before proceeding. Gun.Smoke constantly scrolls, so I think of that game more like a shooter. Ninja Spirit is ALMOST like a shooter to me too. Especially since I mainly use the projectile weapons, your character jumps near full screen height and the screen constantly scrolls until the boss fights. Makes sense given its an IREM game which some of thier platformers had that influence. Dragon Breed is interesting since you can get off the dragon and often use it as a sheild when not shooting. In some games you scroll the screen and take out X amount of generators or enemies. Fantasy Zone is different like that. So auto scrolling removes alot of games that I might otherwise look at as shooters. Then you have games that really mix genres like Guardian Legend on NES. I would describe games like these as more hybrid games and probably not call them shooters. You can set parameters of course, and you probably go into this, where if a game is 50 percent shooter (reasonable no death gameplay length) then maybe call it a shooter. I would rather just be more descriptive and call them hybrid style games. Something like Sin and Punishment cant be classified with this standard since it mixes melee and dodging into the mix with the shooting. So theres that. This does become more complicated if your holding SHOOTER themed events, so I get where your going with that. More pure shooter games would probably work better for such events. I have seen some strange classifications which make people seem like they have no idea what the game is about. Ive seen Battletoads for NES labeled a beat em up many times. Sometimes the classification is so off it really stands out. Deeper into the vid I completely agree about 8 way directional movement being a main criteria. Thats the main reason Ninja Spirit isnt quite a shooter in my mind. I think the two biggest things that come to mind in a shooter for me are auto scroll and full movement. Maybe in a 3D rail shooter its more than 16 directions, but whatever the case. You also address kamikaze games and pacifist style games. That covers some other points I would bring up. If Geometry Wars was an auto scroller I think the only criteria it would be missing is enemy projectiles, since its pretty much dodging tons of enemies only. You cover everything very thoroughly, and it got me thinking, ha ha. Doom 2016 is probably more your style of shooter. That game had very clear to read projectile movements and enemies but also got extremely difficult on the Nightmare setting. Very little chance to use any of the environment as cover. For Doom Eternal I felt they completely fucked up the balance , pacing and added alot of shit that made the game feel more like a mess. All enemy types on every encounter made encouters feel less unique and alot of other shit I could ramble about. Loved Doom 2016 though and it does almost feel like an old space ship shooter in FPS form, mechanically. Only played it a little but Returnal seems almost like bullet hell patterns in an FPS style and has some interesting dodge mechanics. Thats in third person but similiar. Doesnt have that tiny hitbox like a bullet hell, but that would probably be extremely awkward to keep track of in 3D. Great fuckin video though. In conclusion Ive never related to the elitist mentality way back to the 8 and 16 bit console wars. Gameplay is king for me and I play anything that has compelling gameplay to me. Doesnt matter platform, visuals,genre. It comes down to compelling addictive gameplay. Other times its just the thrill of beating a high volume of games, so less about individual games. Its great that we have the variety available that we have today and a great place to discuss this shit.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Awesome comment my friend! A always love when viewers really dig into the subject :-) yes I d agree that gunsmoke is a shmup, the western style is also super cool! Returnal is really interesting as it is clearly brining in some shmup references into a 3rd person shooter. I d love to cover it on the channel but the damn thing is stuck on PS5. But yes we are of the same mind where I don't want these criteria to lock shooters out of crossover among players, but actually to encourage it and provide a framework to discuss their design :-)

@theconsolekiller7113

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Any time. I like to ramble about this type of shit, ha ha. Right, I was only able to get a PS5 by taking the no warranty route through a scalper, paying an extra 150, so I know its a huge pain in the ass. You dont see too many good Western themed games. Theres a few like Red Dead,Wild Guns,Sunset Riders and Gunsmoke but very few. Agreed. I think its awesome that theres such a huge variety of different types of games even within the same genre. Always appreciate the detailed videos and responses. Your channel, and Sjunkie's channels have definately given me a deeper insight into this category of games. As I have been getting more into Joystick mods recently these are the perfect types of games to fuck around with. KEEP KILLIN THAT SHIT !!

Surely they're all 'shmups', but the ones that fit the three criteria defined here are another sub-genre? Great video!

54:29 I actually found a game like that: CielClou CielClou is a first-person bullet hell arena shooter that's structured very similarly to a shmup. Each level, you fight through waves of enemies, then once you defeat enough of them, you fight a multi-phase danmaku boss. On top of shooting and dodging, there's also resource management. You have two weapons, each with their own ammo pool. The Nail gun deals more damage and has enemies drop health and armor pickups as well as Shotgun shells, but it chews through its 400 ammo very quickly. To get this ammo back, you swutch to the shotgun and defeat some enemies with that, so they drop a bunch of ammo. This game's pretty forgiving, too. You have 100 Health and 100 Armor, and Armor works very similarly to how it does in Doom, reducing the damage you take quite significantly, but wearing off after taking too many hits. Most attacks do about 10 damage per hit, and the Nail gun lets you recover pretty easily, especially during boss fights, where finishing off a phase with the Nail gun has the boss drop a bunch of health and armor pickups, basically restoring you to full health/armor immediately. Meanwhile, doing the same with the Shotgun provides lots of ammo for the Nail gun, basically restoring that to full. Dodging bullets is also surprisingly intuitive. While you can't see your own hitbox, you can see the bullets heading towards you, and if a bullet looks like it'll hit you, it probably will unless you move out of the way. Here's a link to some gameplay: kzread.info/dash/bejne/oHyYrcmgadTSoLw.html And if you want to try it yourself, here's another link: nizakashii.itch.io/cielclou

36:35 that bit really makes it sound like you would want to call these games dodgers :p

So, what are Centipede, Millipede, Galaga, Galaxian, Donkey Kong 3, Gyrus, Juno First, and even Dig Dug? How about twin-stick shooters like Robotron, Nex Machina, and Never Awake?

@dingo535

Жыл бұрын

Twin Stick shooters are still shmups in many regards but there should be some distinction I think.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

I think the term protoshmup really fits them. The fact that you are locked into a horizontal plane really sets them apart from modern shmups. Nex machina is a twin stick shooter :-) Never awake looks like a manually scrolling shmup.

I thought a definition would be extremely simple but some of the edge-case games where really interesting to think about!

@TheElectricUnderground

9 ай бұрын

yes it starts to get way more complicated than I think people realize ha

🙂I'm early in the video but I'm right there with SJ. It might just be our age but a shooter was a shooter and we separated first person shooters by calling them... first person shooters :-). Just saying shooter (or shoot em up) and you were talking about what we now call a shmup. I still use the old school naming to separate the two but since I don't really have anyone that I talk with about these things there aren't too many chances for confusion. end of the video and what an excellent conversation. I didn't know how you'd fill an hour but it was really enjoyable. I thought Atomic Runner would be the challenge to any definition but wasn't thinking of In the Hunt. That's why SJ is the best when you need to talk about old school shooters.

Autoscrolling or not is like the difference between a 3D platformer and an Endless Runner. The mechanics and appeal are very similar, but everyone would agree crash bandicoot and temple run are different games. Under the same umbrella genre but distinct enough to be their own thing.

In Italy we call Fighting Games Picchiaduro (Hit Hard) if i were to say Fighting Game (Gioco di combattimento) to refer to a Fighting game the reaction would likely be: "Dude, 90% of games feature some sort of fighting"

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

That is interesting!! Do beat em ups fall into that term as well? I have heard that sometimes beat em ups can get lumped in with traditional fighting games

@claudiomonteverdi847

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground From the top of my head i remember people referring to traditional Beat em Ups and Hack n slashes with the term Beat Em Up. First Person Shooting and third person shooting games have an interesting name which is Sparatutto (Shoot everything) with "In prima persona" or "In terza persona" to differentiate from FPSes or Third person shooters. I don't consume much italian videogame media nowadays but I think outside of those two the english terminology has taken place with maybe a bit of a translation or a cast (When a foreign term gets italianized for ease of pronunciation). Outside of the realm of videogames the number one example of this type of naming convention comes from Thriller books and movies as Giallo (Yellow) because the first collection from major book publishers decided to give a yellow cover and background to detective stories

@claudiomonteverdi847

Жыл бұрын

As for personally I am a strong proponent for the term shmup, especially with attributes that help describe a subcategory. Having an unambiguous name can help people search for more games they like (and, of course, dismiss a genre they don't think they might appreciate which is unfortunately what happens often with my two favorite genres: FGs and Shmups)

"Shmups are so choice. If you have the means I highly recommend picking one up."

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

a life without shmups ... I won't say a life not worth living, but one def missing out lol

Yes! Another long-form banger!

@Godsgood111

Жыл бұрын

That's what she said

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Thank you for tuning in my friend, I'm really happy with how the vid turned out

It become an issue when online stores started flooding their shooters category with both shoot em ups and first person shooters... while technically both shooters they have different audiences. Shoot em ups is good enough already.

My issue with a lot of these conversations is that I don't see the value in applying prescriptive rules to categorization. To me, these are conventions more than rules. Like, shmups have autoscrolling, except there are a few that don't. Just like RPGs have experience points, except there are a few that don't. You're trying to categorize art, so there are going to be some items that don't fit exactly into your understanding of a bucket, but the experience is so similar here as to make it basically the same.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

The value comes from recognizing the impacts of design decisions and then categorizing the games based on those values. This is how we organize and navigate art. And the thing about genre is that this tendency is natural and very useful because even if you say ok genre doesn't matter, you still will end up organizing games together based on how they are related ... Which is the same thing as genre ha. So yes genre classification is prescriptive, but imagine you go to Barnes and noble to buy a book and all the books are just one massive pile. You could only find the books that you already know about and you could not use genre as a powerful discovery mechanism, and discovery is vital for connecting art to its audience

That new logo is sick. I’d get that on a shirttt

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

stay tuned ;-) I'll have something to show around december 2nd

@mikaelandersson1288

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground There are two different Deathsmiles game packs on Steam... one ported by City Connection which contains Deathsmiles 1+2 and then there is this other one which was ported by CAVE... so my question to you is... are you aware of that and does the input lag differ between the two?

I have a definition for you: A Shmup is a genre of games in which the main objective/gameplay characteristic is to dodge projectiles enemies shoot at you. This is what I felt in love with when I discovered the Shmup genre, this is what the very essence of shmups are to me. Especially danmaku which further enhances this. But I think this is a legit definition, at least for the broader genre, of course subgenres like danmaku have more characteristics I guess. Challenge me! (I admit I posted this before watching the video!) I'm not sure we should include the fact that we shoot as well, because pacifist runs are definitely a thing in shmups, even though they aren't very popular or entertaining honestly haha (depends). Or we include the shooting from our perspective in the definition and consider pacifist runs as an exception/sub genre/category.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I think the 3rd criteria could be reworked a bit to say something like combat is focused on projectiles, maybe even a statement that simple would work best, so that the players own shots are still factored in to some degree

mark, check out silent bomber (ps1). it's hard to classify, but one valid description could be "what if bomberman was a character action game." it's got some rough edges but it's really unique and holds up pretty well overall.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Holy crap that game looks awesome!! The fact that it has mgs1 style graphics is also fantastic!! Now I def need to try it :-)

Did you ever see that VR showcase on steam... I think its called "the room" or something like that? One of the minigames is a shmup type game like space invaders, where the stage is a big sphere with waves of enemies coming in toward you. Your controller represents the ship, and you have full 3d movement with the same precision as a shmup. You just need to move your hand and arm to move the ship in any pattern imaginable. It was really cool, i wish someone would make a full game like that.

Drinking game: take a sip for every "shoot them up" or shmup, take a shot every time "Raiden" is said.

Well it is not start of 2nd loop of shmup science studies I was hyped for((

I like SHMUP Junkie's intuitive take on the genre classification topic in general, but I also like Mark's attempt to nail down genre conventions to create concrete definitions. I'm firmly anti-intellectual in the realm of videogames. I think the influence of academia on games and gaming in general has been a detriment. You don't need a course to teach you to make games, you need to play good games enough to understand them. I don't want pseudo-intellectuals defining genres based on the wikipedia articles they've glossed over or their theoretical geneology for a game's origin. You need an expertise that comes from playtime and immersion in the genre to speak authoritatively on classification.

@CatzyCatzy

5 ай бұрын

Indeed...

I feel like you guys were talking past one another a little bit. Mark wanted to pin down objective criteria for what a shmup is and Junkie didn't want to do that. What I got out of the conversation is that a shmup must 1) auto scroll vertically or horizontally. 2) Have 8 way movement without gravity. All the ,"what about..." games are shooters and not shmups. That's the most concise way I've heard it defined. When I try to define it myself I get confused and give up. It's weird, you wouldn't think it's hard to define until you sit down and try to do it. Maybe it's a sign. Junkie is right. We shouldn't pin down the term. The shmup gods might smite us with 10 years of euro shmup for our hubris :(

@ruolbu

Жыл бұрын

Recently there is this story going around that there is no really solid definition of what a FISH is. It's a fun rabbit hole do go down for an evening. In the end, definitions do not really exist, they are ficticious. What does exist is a multi dimensional spectrum and everything exists somewhere on that spectrum. To try and create neat little boxes to fence in certain stuff will always be imperfect. The fence will always cut off some things that feel like they belong and it will always trap other stuff that feels like it is foreign. And of course, those feelings are subjective, so everyone got a different fence. The only really practical thing is to just go with the flow and see what people do intuitively. If it quacks...

In Brazil in the 80s and 90s we called it "jogo de navezinha" (aka little ship game 👀)

Great topic, Mark! Been bumping into this taxonomy issue a lot recently while looking through 90s game magazines. There's a fun period of time when Street Fighter II is considered a beat 'em up, and apparently Ecco the Dolphin was an action RPG. How do you feel about my classifications of the following outliers? Ninja Commando = manual scrolling shmup; Atomic Robo Kid = manual scrolling free-roaming shmup; Granada = arena shooter (the level design doesn't lock you into an arena, but most of the combat takes place in larger, semi-enclosed areas connected by corridors/passages); rail cart stage in Gunstar Heroes = auto-scrolling run 'n' gun (Treasure are the masters of genre alchemy). How'd I do?

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Excellent work synth!! Yes I agree with these classifications :-) by george you've got it!!

I think in general I can agree with your criteria and genre segmentation, I just don't want the community to exclude games because of weird rules and whatnot. I think games like fantasy zone, in the hunt, etc shouldn't be discounted from shmup groups/events, so the idea of subgenre-ing them is cool (like manual-scrolling shmup, for example). It's certainly stricter than the Japanese STG definition, which is kinda funny. There's a 50/50 chance Japanese game stores put shmups in a "shooting" category next to CoD or sprinkled among the action games. 🤣

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I absolutely understand that. That s why I want these criteria to be used with an open mind where even if a game isn't full on hitting the criteria, like in the hunt, it can be shown to be close enough by meeting the other criteria while also being able to identify why doom is not a shmup :-) in the end I think these criteria actually opens up the definition a lot more than before, because there has been debate in the past that touhou isn't a shmup ha

It's funny that this is still an issue because I already though "Shoot 'em ups" was a dismissive term and disliked that then when the FPS deal came into the picture I just defiantly said shooter, vertical/horizontal shooter, space shooter, etc... By the time I started hearing "shmups" I was too weary and used to disappoint to care anymore. I just accept it now but I don't really care for it and feel weird saying that term so I don't use it personally. But I wouldn't make a big deal out of it unless the subject happened to come up like it did here.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yeah it reminds me a ton of the "emo" label in the 2000s if you remember that. during the 2000's, bands ran away from the term because they thought it was dismissive. Two decades later, now the term is more fondly looked upon so those same bands are happy to come back and be labeled emo ha.

fantastic video.

Which Game is This?? BTW love your content just binged every video!!

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Thank you my friend!! Today we are coving the genre in general, so lots of games are featured :-)

For an an exemption to the first criteria: Sub-Terrania for the Genesis was definitely a shmup but the ship was confined by gravity.

In Argentina we always called them "juegos de naves" (ship games or spaceship games) 😋. In places like Spain, they call them "Matamarcianos/ mata marcianos" (martian killers).

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

It s always really cool to learn how other countries classify genres! In France for example they call character action 3d beat em up, which I think is great :-)

By watching this video again, something just came to my mind. Twin stick shooters are definitely a shooter game but why does it feel like it didn't originate from the thing that we call shmups??

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Oh twin sticks are super interesting, I think it s because they originated from fps (a 3d genre) and worked their way backwards into 2d. Which is crazy and kind of funny. I don't think they actually take much design inspiration from shmups

@soratheorangejuicemascot5809

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground I see. The origin of twin stick is kinda bit weird.

Steam did not watch this vid

Run and gun started to define games quite litterally and not so much for the gameplay. Commando and Contra were both considered run and gun despite the fact that Commando originally came from Front Line, which in turns was inspired by Berzerk. From there, you can go back to Space Invader. It's by far the closest genre to shmup (8-way movements). While Contra came from Shinobi so the roots are obviously Jump Bug. Now Jump Bug with its auto scrolling has definitely some amount of "shmup feel" but the way it plays is like an action-platform game. It feels weird to consider Contra the same genre as Ikari Warriors but Mega Man or Castlevania, now it's a completely different thing. That's how we ended up with the top-down shooter term, especially now that they are so proeminent. But the legitimacy of run & gun for side scrolling action games, can it be questioned? Some people consider the volume of bullets you shoot as the defining factor. But another one is how likely you are to die from platforming. Which is very likely in a Castlevania, Ninja Gaiden or Megaman game. Unlikely in Contra, Rolling Thunder or Metal Slug. Impossible in Elevator Action or Alien Soldier. That's how those games separate themselves as years passed and you ended up with this intuitive feel: that one is action platform, this is a run'n gun, despite both of them being side scrolling action. It's not perfect though, because you still have games like Steel Assault being weirdly classified as action-platform despite the run 'n gun feel. It's funny how side-scrolling run 'n gun kinda became the horizontal shmup of the genre (memorization heavy, stage hazards), while top-down run 'n gun are the vertical ones (old ones even have a true yoko format). And just like I love vertical shmup a lot more than horizontal ones, I vastly prefer Ninja Princess to Contra. There would be a lot to say about how these genres evolved mechanically through history. And this is another case of "are modern ones really better?". I'd argue nothing beats Shock Troopers even today! Anyway, very interesting discussion! I completely agree with your 3 defining features.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes Kriegor, I agree that just like how shmups need to have a more specific criteria run and guns need them as well. Because like we mention in the episode, there is def a difference between metal slug and contra, even though they are in the same genre as run and fun. Then there is the wolf game which autoscrolls, it would be really interesting to dig into that genre more as its conventions do feel more loose. Like is mega man a run and gun? and if not, why not? getting down to the specifics is interesting.

How soon Ilya forgot his wonderful summer of 2021 guest appearance on Region Free Gamers. 😅

There is one general term that all of these games fall under that was used back in the day: action game, also action/platformer or action/shooting. I bring this up because Shmup Junkie brought up hat a game genre is determined based on what it is programmed to do, and every subgenre presented here falls under the action game umbrella.

Some features. Control an avatar in the 3rd person in a top down or side on view. With movement in a 2D plane. You shoot enemies and avoid their bullets. Aim is to get to the end of the game and/or score as many points as possible.

I think forced scrolling is one of the basic things a shmup needs to have. Another thing is fixed enemy patterns.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yes for sure, the autoscroll is fundimental :-)

@joeyjo-joshabadu9636

Жыл бұрын

What about fixed shooters like space invaders and centipede?

Funny enough I had a twin named Mark. Another funny thing is that even though shmups went from "shooters" to "shmups" they still get lumped in the "shooter" section with all the other third-person and first person shooters which actually makes them quite hard to find without being in the shmup community heh.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Shout out to your twin! Also yeah it is funny how the naming term has evolved completely independently away from the community of players. I don't mind calling them shmups though, I m fond of the term

@RewdanSprites

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah. When I started playing shmups again I was searching for "space shooters" and it kept coming up with the wrong thing 🤣. It took a while before I got good at hunting them down. Quite the effort 🤣.

I’m starting to think it has to do with symmetry. To eight-way inputs I would add four-fold symmetrical movement. An emphasis on a single direction gives the player embodiment a specific polarity that I haven’t felt outside shumps.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Oh that is really interesting!! Shmups and symmetry is an interesting topic to explore, I bet there is a lot to discover about that relationship

54:35 There is a third-person shooter focused on dodging bullets. It's called Vanquish. And I would say "In the Hunt" is a run-and-gun. It's much closer to Metal Slug than it is to Raiden, for instance.

Also: What's the the name of the game in the background with the fantasy setting where you play as that sorcerer (?) with the staff and the red tunic (e.g. at 1:04:44)? It looks amazing in terms of art style!

The simplest definitions are usually best, it's ok if there's some exceptions. A shoot em up is primarily a 2D game with autoscrolling and you shoot things, usually controlling a vehicle or character that flies, although not always. It's contrasted with other shooters where the game doesn't autoscroll and you primarily run on the ground, i.e. Run and Gun.

Should try Neverawake, this game is hidden gem, has a lot of thoughts and variety into it.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Yep I plan to!! Just getting caught up on other vids :-)

Whenever people ask, I just say that it's "a game like this" and then link to a video, or "a game like Touhou" or whatever they happen to maybe know. I thought about this for a while before listening, and I thought about the dodging aspect as well. Shooting is not where the challenge comes from in these games, and sometimes you don't even have to. You could define it as "a game about dodging bullet patterns" and it would be solid. Except that would end up including platformers, so I think the 8-way movement is necessary as well. When I was thinking about it, I just banned jumping completely, but I think the movement requirement is better. But it's interesting to think about whether it's possible for something to have jumps AND be a shmup. If you took any vertical shmup and added holes to jump over, and you could jump over projectiles, would that still be a shmup? Not sure. Horizontal wouldn't, because you would need gravity and would lose the movement and it would just be a platformer, but in vertical, you could keep the same movement, just with an added third dimension. Tricky, I can imagine that being done in a way that is still somewhat shmupy. Anyway, the focus on dodging bullet patterns is the most important part, and the autoscrolling contributes to that because it forces you to move through the patterns. That's what really makes games like GTA1/GTA2 and Hotline Miami not shmups, even though they are top-down shooters with 8-way movement.

Nice video, thanks for making it. Can you please edit it down to the essential parts though, that would be like a 300% increase in quality? The video is like an hour and some minutes, it could and should have been 20 minutes. Just my 2 cents.

Luftrausers is kind of like Time Pilot btw.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Nice!! There are so many little gems like that out there, I d never even heard of time pilot before