One of my favourite things about DS9 is that they went 176 episodes without doing a single Borg episode. They even had a massive tempting hook with Sisko's past and they still resisted it.

@Eleglas

Жыл бұрын

Which I still find a bit weird honestly. The Defiant was built specifically to fight the Borg, but it only ever was used against the Dominion really in the show. The one time it did go up against the Borg was in a movie that didn't even have the DS9 crew (other than Worf) in it, and it got its ass kicked barely surviving and had to be saved by the Enterprise.

@Chiscringle

Жыл бұрын

I agree with this 100%. The Borg would be out of place on DS9.

@lodepublishing

Жыл бұрын

The very first episode was a Borg episode ;)

@coeusdarksoul2855

Жыл бұрын

@@Eleglas In it's defense, it was designed to work as part of a wolfpack, several Defiant classes making quick hit & run attacks with the understanding that they may not all survive.

@jhonbus

Жыл бұрын

I agree! They didn't need to, because they had their own stuff that was better.

If the New Trek team insists on doing prequel works, why does it all have to be prequels to TOS? There's a 70+ year gap between the Enterprise-B segment of Generations and Encounter At Farpoint. And given the reactions I've seen to the SNW finale it;s not like there's no hunger to see the maroon uniforms again. They could do both; explore aspects of the universe that have been referenced but never seen, but do so with characters who have no relation whatsoever to any of the characters of the other shows; no adult children of TOS characters, or parents to TNG/DS9/VOY characters.

@rickjohnston1728

Жыл бұрын

I totally agree. "The Lost Years" between the launch of the Enterprise-B and just before the construction of the Enterprise-D would be a great era to create a series in.

@emmamacfarlane8137

Жыл бұрын

There were plans at one point to do an Excelsior series, and we were bloody robbed.

@dojokonojo

Жыл бұрын

Yes to more monster maroon uniform era Trek!

@darthdank1993

Жыл бұрын

I want to see the ship that went through the weird future portal where tng enterprise blew up 100s of times.

@deaks25

Жыл бұрын

I've seen that era referred to as the "Lost Era" because there's almost nothing on that period aside from the Ambassador class existing and the Ent-C doing it's heroics.

DS9 was (initially) a lot less bold in establishing new lore than TNG was. It has several main characters with direct connections to previous Trek series, its first season features a lot of appearances from side characters introduced by TNG, and a surprising number of its episodes (throughout the series) have plots that are direct reworkings of plots from TNG episodes. But none of that prevented the show from establishing its own, _very_ different identity, even in that first season.

I was one of those people who didn't initially accept Star Trek: TNG. I tuned in and watched a couple of lackluster early episodes, and my reaction was that this was a show that was trying very hard to replicate the formula of the original show and nailed only the cheesier aspects of it, while not having endearing, familiar characters to leaven that. So what was the point? I actually didn't start watching again until late in season 4, when I started catching bits of the show as it then was, and realizing it had developed its own voice that was different and also good. The episode that really hooked me was the courtroom-drama bottle episode, "The Drumhead". I didn't get a lot of the references--Picard had been involved with someone called The Borg? That made me curious. But it was clearly good, thoughtful drama. Of course, it was easy to catch up via syndicated reruns. One of the things that changed was that while the episode formats were still reminiscent of original Trek (TOS did courtroom dramas too), the show was no longer trying to ape TOS stylistically--surprisingly, it had actually become *less* of an action-adventure show, with less frenetic editing, less focus on fights and more on character-focused drama. That was interesting. It had become its own thing.

@WhiteScarsEmo

Жыл бұрын

I remember returning to the states when the first season of TNG came out. I was so... unimpressed (And that's me being polite!). But into Season 3, there was a noticeable change in quality and I was hooked.

@oerthling

Жыл бұрын

Yup, same here. I tried early TNG full of hope, but the first episodes were somewhere between bad and mediocre and early Ferrengi unbearable. Gave up in the middle of first season and ignored it for years. Only to rediscover it years in season 3 or 4 and then going back and catch up. It turned out to eventually be best Star Trek - until DS9. :)

@michaels.9871

Жыл бұрын

I would love to have the same realization about discovery one day. BTW, I like how Shives Channel has an audience so diverse in age that I can benefit from such insights.

@cinemarchaeologist

Жыл бұрын

I guess I started sort of like you did. I was a major Trek fan and, with TNG on the horizon, was super-excited for the new show and was crushed by the reality of it. It was garbage--awful, cheesy, with dull, bloodless characters, bargain-basement effects, absolutely no vision in the production design (someone once described the TNG uniforms as looking like doormen and said it was appropriate, since the "bridge" of the TNG Enterprise looked like a hotel lobby), smotheringly PC, children on the Enterprise. It was just a bad show. It aped the premise and formula of the original--and, in the first two seasons, the exact plots--with no understanding of what made that show work so well and no trace of its spirit (the most important part). Unlike you though--and definitely unlike Steve--I didn't think the show ever got over most of these problems. One can point to later episodes and say they were more competently done but I think of TNG as Roddenberry's Folly--that awful mess Roddenberry made decades after he'd completely burned out. TNG ran 7 seasons and if one extracted all of the not-too-bad to good episodes, one couldn't even fill one of those seasons. One could, however, fill multiple seasons with sub-"Spock's Brain" material. TNG could be described as "revisionist Trek, in that it tries to fundamentally alter what Trek was (and not in any good ways). To me, TNG isn't Star Trek. That last is something that was often said--by people who were much more fans of TNG than of Trek--of DS9 but DS9, which was innovative in its premise and its storytelling and was intentionally set up as the anti-TNG, captured a great deal of the spirit of the original. Its major shortcomings were nearly all holdovers from--and often imposed by--TNG. It was not a huge hit in its time but is now considered by many the best of the Trek sequel series. Then, of course, years later, DISCOVERY was frequently denounced on these same grounds. "It ain't Star Trek!" By which the complainants meant it wasn't TNG. lol. Everyone comes at these things from their own angle, I guess. For me, what can the creators of current Trek learn from TNG? Nothing, At all. The further they steer clear of TNG, the better they'll be.

@BS-vx8dg

Жыл бұрын

As someone who watched TOS during its original run, I was so desperate for any Trek at all that I watched every episode of TNG from the start. But those first two seasons were painful, and I had to push myself through it. Fortunately, I was rewarded with a few 2nd season gems ("Measure of a Man", "A Matter of Honor") and then finally things got good. It was this difficult early experience with TNG that I used to push myself through ST: Discovery. I liked very little about the first two seasons (and absolutely *hated* the Klingon storyline), but kept going, waiting for The Reward that would be Season 3. Well, Season 3 was creative, but also utterly depressing. I watched the first episode or two of Season 4, then cancelled my Paramount subscription. I no longer feel I have to watch everything Trek, and will wait for a positive consensus from people I respect.

Steve didn’t mention Enterprise(much) which just got good right as it ended. It was arguably as separate as TNG, and put crews in “they might actually lose” situations, imo. Janky new technology, few allies, harder limits on escapes and living situations (no infinite possibilities holodeck), etc. Sometimes less is more.

@MrRjhyt

Жыл бұрын

I liked the Xindi arc. Sure, time travel can be a little suspect. But the conflicting alliances and goals of the various Xindi were handled well, overall.

Remember when Voyager encountered the Equinox and they compared notes and said "we never met them, we never met them we never met them either" and they were on roughly the same path through the delta quadrant. A quadrant is a big place all you have to do is have Scorpion Part1 and Part2 and have the borg transmit a map and say "this is our territory AVOID THIS SPACE" and Janeway says "Mr Kim make a note in the charts that we are to avoid that region of space" boom no more borg on Voyager.

@kevinmorgan9417

Жыл бұрын

But when have we ever known the Borg to tell others to stay away? As a species (if you can call them that, given they assimilated hundreds or thousands of species), their priority seems always to have been to assimilate populations (even as small as a ship's crew) to add their biological and technological distinctiveness to the collective. It would be out of character to have Borg saying "stay away".

I thought Scorpion was largely a good episode, and it introduced 7 of 9. But at the end of the episode, Voyager had crossed the entire Borg space, so they wouldn't have had to appear ever again.

@welcherg

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, had Voyager only used the Borg in the episodes Unity and Scorpion, I think it would be much more fondly remembered for that, similar to how Enterprise used the Borg in only one episode. It’s really the later stuff, like Dark Frontier (which is good but shouldn’t have been Borg-related), Unimatrix Zero (ugh) and Engame that ruined the Borg throughout the series.

@naveenbhalla4557

Жыл бұрын

Using the Borg to introduce a scarier villian was a great idea. Having Species 8472 destroying the Borg and having 8472 as the main villians for the rest of Voyager's run would have been great.

There was no way that Paramount execs were going to let those expensive Borg sets and props from First Contact go to waste when Voyager was sitting right there.

@alanpennie8013

Жыл бұрын

Very true. And boy did legacy Trek have a lot of episodes to find stories for!

Reminiscing about TNG always brings a great comfort to me.

I know you don't like "Lower Decks" but it does kind of isolates its crew from any legacy characters. And does a good job being irreverent to Star Trek lore in general.

@queenannsrevenge100

Жыл бұрын

Agreed - though Steve has discussed how Lower Decks doesn’t work for him, their series have been both innovative (because NONE of the other shows focused on how much their characters SUCKED in some contexts 😄) but also because they do introduce some legacy characters but largely stand on their own. The use of Riker for instance was as much to highlight how that life was NOT what Boimler expected, and how it was not what he wanted.

@MrJerks93

Жыл бұрын

@@DavidBeddard I'm not as hard on the show, but I was very worried that Easter eggs were all the show was going to manage until about the halfway point of season one. I appreciate the deep cuts, but it's best as background sight gags. When the show is building upon its own characters and giving us new stuff has been fantastic with both seasons really ending on a string of killer episodes.

@bolerogamer3320

Жыл бұрын

Considering Lower Decks has had appearances from Q, Riker, Troi, Tom Paris, Sonya Gomez, the Borg Queen, Armus, and (technically) Leonardi da Vinci, it certainly doesn't isolate it's crew from legacy characters. In fact Lower Decks has had guest appearances from more legacy characters than any other series so far. The only difference is how a lot of legacy characters have been used for throw-away jokes rather than being integral to the plot.

"...they could have made up an excuse for why our heroes weren't running into the Borg, and had a character say that excuse in an episode, and then it wouldn't have been a problem anymore." (Episode 'The Gift') Janeway - "She's thrown us safely beyond Borg space. Ten years closer to home."

It could have worked for "Voyager" to use the Borg the way "Firefly" used the Reavers (but not how "Serenity" used them)... the unseen terror on the fringes. You hope you never cross paths, you run if you do, and encountering where they were previously is unsettling. Seven of Nine can still work in that context, too.

@singularrookhart7501

Жыл бұрын

Shoot. It occurs to me that that is almost exactly what they are doing with the Gorn, isn't it?

Always thought that Voyager missed a really unique opportunity. I know, that's so weird for that show, but sincerely. I would have loved the writers of Voyager forever if they had the crew discover that, after the events of First Contact, the Borg are all dead. There is, ever so rarely, a single survivor the crew might encounter, such as Seven of Nine, but overall, the entirety of Borg space is now completely dead. There was only so much that could be done with that species that had not already been explored, and credit where it's due, Seven of Nine is an excellent idea. But by killing the entire species off, you then create this massive power vacuum in what used to be their region of the Delta Quadrant. What happens when the Borg are gone? What happens to the entire quadrant, to all of the people that were united against the Borg, now without a common enemy or common cause? Great video, as per usual, Steve!

@WhiteFangofWar

Жыл бұрын

They did sort of do a microcosm of that in Unity. A cube's worth of Borg were accidentally freed from the collective and immediately reverted back to old racial hatreds. Not like the DQ needed that excuse to have lots of hostile races.

Trying to "explain out" a visual design update is actually one of my pet peeves. I come from a Metroid-loving background, where Samus's Varia Suit looks different in every single game, but they never try to explain why her visor changed shape or why she lost the fins on her shoulders. They just let each visual interpretation breathe.

TNG remains my favourite Star Trek series. I like the coziness that derives from the friendship and kindness of the crew, as opposed to the dangers lurking in the vast expanse of space. I enjoy how versatile the show is, alternating between different genres, moods and topics. And I like its social commentary and philosophical content. DS9 is my second favourite, but it became too dark in the last two seasons for my own taste (obviously, that's subjective).

@Beelzeboogie

Жыл бұрын

I love how... un-military the Enterprise-D's bridge looks. Curved wooden panelling. Nice comfy chairs. CARPETS! It really looks totally unlike every other bridge, even Defiant or Voyager.

@aristeon5908

Жыл бұрын

@@Beelzeboogie That's true! I think Steve mentioned a few times he doesn't like the TNG bridge, but I love it.

@Shan_Dalamani

Жыл бұрын

Cozy? Kind? Picard and Riker with their judgmental noses in the air if you offend their sense of superiority by daring to not think like them? GMAB.

@aristeon5908

Жыл бұрын

@@Shan_Dalamani What show did you watch? The crew of TNG usually get along well and listen to each other, they act like friends and comrades, unlike in Voyager. One example is the fact that Picard routinely holds conferences with his senior officers before making important decisions. And he often defers to them. He also does change his mind, for instance when Guinan convinces him to rethink his stance towards Hugh. So, I really don't know what you're talking about.

@paulhammond6978

Жыл бұрын

@@Beelzeboogie It's the 80s soft furnishings Enterprise.

Another excellent video as always Steve! One thought about trials and tribblelations - because we didn't have streaming yet, the TOS episode would be something many audience members either hadn't seen in their lifetimes, or had only seen 30 years before. If they had happened to see TOS reruns they couldn't choose when to rewatch them. When new Trek brings back old characters, enemies or plots, it's doing so in a context where most audience members could rewatch the classics any time they choose. I think this context makes it even more important for the new shows to boldly cover new ground. That said, strange new worlds is fantastic.

I had no issue with "Enterprise" covering the "reason" the Klingons lost their ridges. I didn't care for a Borg episode in the same series because I felt they were already over-used. It was somewhat balanced out by connecting the dots between the events in the past during "Star Trek: Nemesis" and TNG.

I have a feeling writers of voyager using borg so much, etc May have to do with network/studio’s mandates based on fandom & ratings. When you say “they don’t have to”… they might have. This being said, the common & valid complaint of voyager destroying the teeth of the Borg as a villain… feels very Trek to me. At first the Klingons were horrible, evil, & without redemption. Now they’re allies. The Romans are currently going through a softening as well as we see more of their “humanity.” Having the Borg go from robotic mindless attackers to joining the federation temporarily in Picard follows this path of seeing that our enemies are people too. Very trek. …granted voyager could have done it a lot better & had the transition go slower from one to another… but I primarily blame first contact for that.

@nathanieldaiken1064

Жыл бұрын

It's my same complaint about Dr Who and the Daleks! When ratings go down, they throw in the Daleks to literally tear up the scenery!

I'm down with Jessie Gender's idea of SNW having an episode in the next season where Tawny Newsome and Jack Quaid are background characters in one scene. Followed by a Lower Decks episode where Mariner and Boimler get sent back in time to Pike's Enterprise.

@solarisone1082

Жыл бұрын

Holy shit, that's an awesome idea!

@user-zh4vo1kw1z

Жыл бұрын

I would love it even more if it wasnt called out and spaced years apart.

@TheMule47

Жыл бұрын

i want that so much!

Me and my friend had a problem with voyager running into repeating enemies. They are supposed to be rapidly traversing the delta quadrant in a ship faster than most, so why do they keep running into the same people?

@user-zh4vo1kw1z

Жыл бұрын

Cuz bases, people, information and causality travel at the speed of plot in Trek

@susanscott8653

Жыл бұрын

Maybe they were going round in circles. 🤔

@kevinmorgan9417

Жыл бұрын

If I had to guess: in the Delta Quadrant, the galaxy seems to be like Europe in the pre-Modern through Early Modern eras: large-ish empires, but on a multi-star-system scale. The Borg, the Kazon, and some other races seemed much less confined to their own systems, much more spread out like the Romulan or Klingon or Cardassian Empires, with conquered planets and colonies and the like. Or, alternatively, like the old Soviet Union, covering vast amounts of physical territory even though there were nominally lots of countries in the "union". No matter whether you were in Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, or whatever, you were in the USSR, so traveling from one side to the other could take a very long time. The Federation, by contrast, is a voluntary association of worlds, more like NATO or the EU. From a security perspective, when you're in France or Germany, you're in NATO and NATO protects you, but otherwise, when you go from France to Germany, you move to a very different place. So ships in the Alpha Quadrant are moving between worlds like going between EU countries, while Voyager was moving among worlds within one or more USSR-like entities.

Having Roddenberry on board at first may have given those working on TNG a bit of extra courage in this department, to be fair. Last time I watched a making-of doco, it credited him with inventing Q.

@alanpennie8013

Жыл бұрын

There's a most interesting interview with de Lancie which confirms this. He says Roddenberry had to add another 30 minutes to the pilot at the last moment when Paramount wanted to extend the run time, and came up with Q, probably basing him on Trelane after looking through TOS episodes for ideas.

One of the things I like about Prodigy is that for the most part it does try to stand on its own. There is one reference heavy episode and it's probably my least favorite of the show so far, but that's it. Holo-Janeway is a different enough character and her main purpose is exposition since the main characters (like the target audience) are outsiders to the federation. It takes place far enough away that there are not a lot of return races or planets. Yeah being it's targeting older kids and teens instead of adults may be a turn off but the show doesn't even dumb things down. Even the references it does have seem to be more obscure and done less for fan service and more for what works for the story. Yeah I like prodigy.

@falsenames

Жыл бұрын

Although Prodigy is my favourite out of the current Star Trek series out there... it isn't completely separate from old Star Trek. Seems like they hit a nice balance like TNG did. They have a Janeway, but not quite. There's a Medusan character, which is a species from ST:TOS's "Is There in Truth No Beauty" (Man, I love ST:SNW's weird titles like ST:TOS). They pulled Spock, Uhura, Dr. Crusher, and Odo for an episode featuring the Kobayashi Maru from Star Trek II. A random Ferengi is dragged into their quadrant thousands of lightyears way from Ferenginar for no discernable reason other than they needed a scheming character. Time Amok is a reference to Amok Time (though a MUCH more unique plot to justify that). The end episode has a nice twist for another Voyager cast mention. Again, Prodigy is amazing in my opinion. It doesn't beat me over the head with nostalgia, breaks tons of new ground with new alien species, planets, and plots. It seems to sprinkle in enough random old bits to let an old fan like me occasionally think "Oh hey, I know that" while still keeping my attention with new things... and this is their kid's show?

@noahhallows1034

Жыл бұрын

Me too.

This whole discussion is why Lower Decks is my favourite of the new Trek series. Yes, there's a *lot* of reference to previous Trek, but none of that reference is essential to understanding Lower Decks, and none of it prevents the show from exploring new storytelling ground and engaging with it's own characters. For all the references and riffing on older Trek, Lower Decks is *about* its own characters and stories, not those other Trek shows that came before.

I hope the next Star Trek series will take place 100 years after TNG and with totally new characters.

"So, make it..." Well played, Steve. Well played.

Ioved this episode and agree with all of your major points. That being said, I think I remember that Admiral Mccoy was in the first episode of TNG walking down the passage way with Data, seeming to set up Data as the "new" Spock.

Admittedly I haven't seen it since it first aired but the episode of enterprise where they explained the Klingon head ridges I remember very fondly liking. I remember thinking that it was an interesting story and explained something about the world in a believable fashion.

@rudylikestowatch

Жыл бұрын

Me too. I feel like it was answering a challenge from the ds9 Tribble episode.

I don't think you can ignore the medium here. TNG did its own thing on one of a very small number of broadcast channels you could catch with your rabbit ears. If you wanted to watch TV at any given time and day back then, you had a pretty small number of options. It was unlikely many of those other options for that slot were going to be sci fi genre shows. Also, lots of houses had only one TV - if one person was watching Star Trek, everyone was watching Star Trek. My mom is no trekkie, but she saw week after week of TNG and DS9, because she was outvoted by her hubby and both kids. All TNG had to do was be interesting enough to potential fans that they didn't change the channel, and the pull of those other channels often wasn't strong if you were a vaguely trek-interested person. The world is so different now. To watch the newest Star Trek, you have to subscribe to Paramount Plus, which is kind of a wasteland of reality TV outside of its Trek content. So new shows have to sell viewers not just on sitting and watching, but subscribing to a service, often JUST to watch the Trek show. At any given moment, you could watch nearly any genre show you want, and no one has to agree with you on the choice. Every show coming out is competing with every show you haven't watched yet ever made!! My wife and I didn't touch new Trek until Picard, because it was Picard that intrigued us enough to finally sub to P+ to watch it once all the episodes were available. Picard kept us interested enough, and then we still had some time on our subscription, and only then did we watch our first episode of Discovery. We're big Disco fans now, and we'll show up for more. Now we're generically interested in New Trek, so NOW it can go do new things and we're thrilled to give it a go regardless. The bar to clear to get watched is different. I won't say generically higher (you had to sit down at a particular time and day back when TNG was on, now you can organize shows into your own time), but the competition is much fiercer. I've got to imagine that the more original something is, the more you have to sell it, the harder it is to produce. I really love Disco seasons 3 and 4, but I only got to see them at all because I got lured in with old man Picard to ponying up my recurring credit card charge for yet another streaming service.

@ewetoo

Жыл бұрын

Think about Fox's behaviour towards shows 20 years ago! It was bad enough THEN. So even fans didn't get to make up their minds when there wasn't much choice.

@MattMcIrvin

Жыл бұрын

We were similarly lured in with a free intro subscription, but we weren't that fond of ST:Picard and not enthralled enough by ST:Discovery (though I thought it was OK) to keep subscribing past season 3. But all the new stuff sounds good enough that maybe I want to get it again. The thing is, it'd basically be the Star Trek Channel. (Though I've heard that about half of the episodes of Jordan Peele's "Twilight Zone" are really good--I never did get around to watching that.)

@danielland3767

Жыл бұрын

I agree with your comment wholeheartedly. It's much tougher to make any ground into anything without a tie to the past, if anything is not a instant success its killed before it can become great (like a employee bot given the 90 days to shine). Hell like the One Day At A Time reboot on Netflix, it was a instant hit...critically and commercially and yet it still got axed. Nothing is save anymore, TV is a popularity contest and that kid that might have chance never will because its easier to go back and see that star high school quarterback spin off show where his brother that appeared in a few episodes went to college and became a star QB, then another spin off after that when the youngest boy finally gets out of the shadows of his family and goes pro...franchise HoF Player, torn by the pressure to be defense while his family has always been offensive players. His daughter now wants to go against that grain and not only play in a sport with "a bunch of guys" but in the lineage of her uncles who were "aggressive" "offensive" players who attacked opponents and where loved & successful. However she has to not only go against a position her dad is on the field agaisnt, but a family that is against here because "she can't play with the boys" even tho she has Pee Wee football player experience, most then the other boys in her high school team Lol..drawn out synopsis but y'all get my point. Today's shows need a tie to the past or they risk getting canceled... I 💯agree

My biggest problem with "Voyager", besides the overuse of the Borg, is the waisted potential it had. There should had been, at least at the beginning, so much tension between Voyager's surviving crew and the maquis that you could expect a mutiny at any moment. We should be aware how limited their resources were and see how that translated into somewhat unethical decisions. The ship could have looked quite worn out at the end of the first season and, hell, even be destroyed after some time. Just imagine, the crew trying to find a new ship in the middle of nowhere and realising that they must steal one not as good are the original, a la Blake's 7, becaming down right criminals in the process. To increase the stakes they could kill Chacotay or another relevant crew officer (so no Harry Kim, then) instead of a secundary character like Kes. There were so many possibilities, and yet so few were explored.

I dunno, I think the DS9 approach is pretty good too. I do agree that a new show with the TOS/TNG basic premise were to be made having it be more disconnected like TNG was would make sense.

I think I would enjoy maybe one or two episodes exploring the long-term consequences of one of the classic captains decisions (preferably Kirk) - and, importantly, why said Captain may necessarily have been correct in their decision

DS9 often considered the best Star Trek, also had the it's own thing. It did bring is NCC-1701 D a couple of times, and one single Q appearance.

On TOS, Spock reminded the Captain many times that he was not supposed to go with away teams. It was interesting to see that Captain Picard followed the rules more, allowing his number one to go on more away missions than he. This division of labor was probably made possible by having a larger cast of regulars.

Thanks for another great episode! One thing didn't fit, though, and I hate to reduce criticisms of Voyager (the only ST I stopped watching), but I think you were unfair to them. Yes, Voyager reused antagonists, but so did TNG with Romulans and others. What I liked about Voyager's depiction of these is how they added completely new internal conflicts, satisfying your requests here. The Q continuum was deconstructed and reconstructed with death and new life. The Borg were given their own antagonist worthy of them, with Voyager "caught in the crossfire" and (potentially) seeing conflict from a civilian's perspective. These may not have been handled well, but I think hey fall into the "positive" category as far as this video is concerned. And we want to be celebrating the attempts to do this, forgiving failure, so that the innovation continues. Looking forward to your next videos!

I would love to see a series based on the USS Excelsior set in the 2290's. Featuring a re-cast Captain Sulu... or not. I just love the Excelsior class.

One idea I had is for a show where it's discovered that there's a vast portion of space, somewhere in, let's say, the Beta Quadrant, that is somehow invisible to sen-sores and doesn't show up on star maps. As though there was some sort of technology that came from within it that makes most sentient beings' brains just ignore the huge missing space on the map. But then some new character, possibly from within that space (but I'd like it better if not) could see it, and called Starfleet's attention to it. Then there's a whole new area of space to explore!

It was great that Enterprise did that Klingon episode... because Enterprise was a prequel. That's essentially the purpose of a prequel... to connect to the broader universe. Prequels are meant to be inwardly expansive. Whereas sequels should be outwardly expansive a la TNG.

It just occurred to me that, with Chekov and Kirk in Generations the film, and with McCoy, Spock and Scotty in Next Generation the series (with the computer voiced by Majel Barrett), and Sulu and Rand in an episode of Voyager, that Nicelle Nichols (Uhura) was the only original series regular who didn't get a cameo in the next generation of Trek. Let me know if I am mistaken.

@Shan_Dalamani

Жыл бұрын

Sadly, I think you're right.

Жыл бұрын

Until Prodigy, that is.

Excellent observations, Steve, on the risks that the producers of TNG were running by not making constant and obvious connections to TOS. The biggest connection they made was remembering what was, for me, the most important speach in TOS: "Risk is our business." TNG did not need to resurrect the original characters, stories, uniforms or props from TOS to be a true STAR TREK series. They needed to remember that risk was not just the business of Star Fleet, but also the business of any good Trek producer. TNG remembered that and committed to that. By making risk their business, those producers earned more than a long running series. They earned a very long running franchise. "Risk is our business" was one of the few parts of TOS cannon that TNG really needed to follow in order to become a true STAR TREK series.

Kung Fu: The Legend Continues - a show I had totally forgotten about, but now that you mention it, I loved watching with my dad. :)

I would pay real money to see a Star Trek: Birds Of Prey series, where the show focuses on joint ventures between the Klingons and Romulans.

I started watching Trek with TNG (aside from randomly watching Wrath of Khan with my dad on a weekend afternoon - I wasn't old enough to register it as Star Trek, and it actually took a while to realize it was the same franchise as the thing I was watching nightly), and it hooked me with its characters immediately. I didn't start watching TOS until a year or two into my Trek experience, when syndication put it back on the air at a time I was allowed to stay up until. It was interesting to come at it 'backwards', because I could, even as a middle-schooler, see how one informed the other and see where they'd split. As a successor show, TNG did a lot to capture the spirit of the original, while taking the remit further than perhaps it could have been taken.

Steve is forever reminding me of shows I grew up watching and then totally forgot existed.

I always wanted to see a series with a hospital ship. They could subvert some medical drama tropes. I did like the Section 31 idea too and have a cool spy thriller. A show about a civilian space colony could be fun. I love star fleet but what is it like to be a citizen in the Federation. Or just have a series that is the mirror universe. Where they are basically space pirates. Or have a series in a brothel (Risa) so they can teach viewers that sex workers are people and to stop treating them like criminals.

@willmfrank

Жыл бұрын

It's unfortunate that the Section 31 series concept came about after the passing of Leonard Nimoy. An actor/writer/director who was a veteran of both "Star Trek" and Mission:Impossible" could have done great things with Section 31.

@WhiteFangofWar

Жыл бұрын

Interesting idea. The ship gets called into war zones or planets being threatened by plagues so there's bound to be action, but with an increased focus on the medical staff. Star Wars had a pretty good duology of novels set almost entirely on the Medstar space station during the Clone Wars.

Honestly, the main thing I've liked about the newer shows being prequels to TOS is that there are NO holodeck episodes! Yes, there have been some good holodeck episodes but in my opinion there are far more bad ones & they got WAY too over used, especially on Voyager.

@enderkool

Жыл бұрын

ah yes, voyager. honestly, if i hadn't seen any star trek before i would've thought that the show aboard a station would have overused the holodeck way more than the show about a lost ship 70 years from home, low on its (infinite supply of) resources. although admittedly the borg being overused was kinda inevitable *relative* to DS9 since its kinda hard to run away from the borg if you're stuck on a space station

Жыл бұрын

I call those the "backlot episodes". Basically, they needed a reason to use the sets on the Universal backlot because those sets are cheap and are already there, and the audience would no longer swallow the "parallel societal evolution" excuse they used for the same on TOS. One of the best things to come from the proliferation of CGI is that shows no longer have to choose between unconvincing matte paintings, ridiculously expensive sets, studio backlots, or local outdoors when portraying alien worlds. Hopefully this will also mean that they will avoid holodeck episodes unless it's absolutely necessary.

@elim_inator

Жыл бұрын

You know what I think might be cool? A short series about a person with a holo-addiction. Each episode, you get an entirely new setting, character relations, overly dramatic scenarios, but the only real person in the entire show is the protagonist, and over the course of the series, they have to learn to find a better way to cope with whatever situation they're in that caused them to develop that addiction. For singular episodes, the holodeck is often not the greatest setting, but if you build your entire show on that premise, it might actually be good.

Turn this around and look at the show that followed all your advice: Voyager. Highly independent especially in the first few seasons. Innovative in trying a lot of new concepts and species. Everything was ahead - they even dumped the concept of the Maquis for the most part early on. As the show continued, it tied itself more and more to earlier work, which produced most of the material that people like best. To your comment about the Borg's origin - one I was thinking - yes, it's all made up. But my continued rebuttal is that a change to what was established previously in the story is a setup that requires a good payoff. Ask yourself this: Would VOY have been able to achieve that payoff? We all know they couldn't have, and Seven of Nine was the result of them leaning on their legacy. You may not have thought it was good, but I hope we can agree it was BETTER than what they'd done on their own (usually). Another example: SNW next season reveals that Spock is 100% human and was told and given surgery to make him look Vulcan. That's a setup that requires a payoff to me. Or is it just that there is no Spock, there are no Vulcans, and it's OK to have Spock spend the rest of the show entirely human without any explanation or comment. Sure, they can do the same time as other shows, but why? We have touchstones going from the 21st C to the 32nd but almost all the shows are either between 10 before classic to 10 after, or from TNG to about 30 years later. At best they've shown us 100 years out of 1000. Seems like a lot of good stuff to look at somewhere else.

@Shan_Dalamani

Жыл бұрын

"Another example: SNW next season reveals that Spock is 100% human and was told and given surgery to make him look Vulcan. That's a setup that requires a payoff to me. Or is it just that there is no Spock, there are no Vulcans, and it's OK to have Spock spend the rest of the show entirely human without any explanation or comment." --- Seriously, or are you just making this up as a hypothetical? If true, it's the stupidest idea I have ever heard. Being alien isn't just what you look like. It's your biochemistry and your brain - that organic stuff that makes you who you are regardless of what your outer self looks like. So relieved that I gave up on the new stuff after DiscoTrek and Picard disgusted me to the point that I really don't miss it. I've got several hundred novels to read, a huge bookshelf full of fanfiction in print form, and there are millions of other stories out there. If they really want to do original Star Trek, they should base a series on the epilogue of the novel Federation. It's about a ship set in an unspecified future time, with a captain of a species not yet discovered in any ST time we're familiar with, and the ship's mission is to go to the next galaxy. This is possible with technology gifted by an artifact that activated when it received notification that all the spacefaring species in our galaxy were finally at peace. This was the criteria for the artifact to conclude that the people of our galaxy were worthy to take the next step. This is a story that would require a future time of tens of thousands of years in the future, so there would still be humans but nobody even remotely related to the current or past series.

@mrbojangles8133

Жыл бұрын

you could have had the borg for maybe a little bit

I grew up in the 80s as a Star Trek fan, playing Star Fleet Battles. TNG was so cool when it happened because it took the story forward. It was courageous. I don't mind a look back to fill in gaps (Star Wars did it well with Rogue One) but generally advancing a timeline, for me, is better than reconstructing storylines and calling it fresh and original, which...no.

@carly7522

Жыл бұрын

Disco S1 would have been fucking cool if set 50 years after Voyager. When the Delta Quadrant is being more explored and tgey are starting to look at other galaxies etc. But no, lets look backwards and artificially constrict all possible lore while ignoring all current lore. Reminds me of what happened to Star Wars.

@mkang8782

Жыл бұрын

I particularly enjoyed watching the interplay between Andorians and Vulcans, and how that relationship evolved over the series.

I think the most independent of the current shows is Lower Decks. I know its not your favourite Steve but unlike all the other none of the main cast members have any family connections to previous casts and its had very limited guest apprences from previous cast members.

@alanpennie8013

Жыл бұрын

The reuse of lore and tropes from earlier iterations though... I'll just mention Peanut Hamper, a pretty obscure one. I suppose your reaction to all this depends how funny you find the show. Personally I rarely manage more than a wan smile.

@falsenames

Жыл бұрын

ST:LD is VERY tied to the previous shows, but in a good way. It constantly deconstructs Star Trek tropes and makes fun of them when warranted, uses them when it services the plot, and just has a bunch of nice random Easter eggs along the way.

The smart thing for them to do with The Borg would be Scorpion - and that's it. Get them past Borg space, make it clear they're getting away from them, and focus on other new enemies. That way you still get Seven, without all the garbage that came after.

Stargate SG-1 is my favorite of the examples you listed. Brilliant show. I love Buffy too. But one you didn't mention, which wasn't anything brilliant, but that i enjoyed a lot, would be Weird Science. Underrated. Lasted a respectable 5 seasons. And what 90s kid didn't have a crush on Vanessa Angel. Loved when she showed up in Stargate as a Tok'ra a few years later.

Also remember that Star Trek can be fun. I was quite young at the time, but I do still remember in the weeks leading up to TNG that people were excited just to have 50 minutes of a fun time. Nobody was thinking about world building or ongoing drama or lore questions. They wanted their next space western. Of course TOS being what it was it wasn't strange that the show matured to more serious stuff too, but being enjoyable is still a big part of what makes Star Trek what it is.

This is a very good take on the topic and even changed my view a little bit, thanks!

DS9 "explained" the difference in Klingons: Worf says, "We don't talk about it. "

Wow, how interesting. Yeah, TNG has relatively little to do with TOS and TOS, DS9 has relatively little to do with TNG, Voyager has relatively little to do with DS9, and Enterprise has relatively little to do with Voyager. At least compared to how intertwined with lore the new stuff is. A thought-provoking observation, thank you for sharing it! Even Enterprise which, as a prequel, had the hardest time separating itself from TOS and TAS, managed to innovate with the Xindi conflict, the idea that Vulcan mind-melders were discriminated against, etc.

Honestly, if I was looking at producing a 'sequel' series to TNG after the Star Trek movies caught on, I would have based the premise on a new crew and ship closer to the time of the movies so that I could feature the original cast in bit parts like having Kirk brief the new captain as a ship was assigned. It would have been simple for makeup artists to add a few years to them in appearence so that the movie series could continue and allow for the reapearence of charecters and places from TOS / TMP era. Going so far into the future as TNG did with such a huge change in almost every aspect of the show was the biggest gamble.

@user-zh4vo1kw1z

Жыл бұрын

And also the biggest reason it succeeded. It allowed it to stand completely on its own, for better or worse. Playing with previous rules, without being slave to them. Inventing its own ... Everything, including its merits. (Which is probably why it has been franchise defining)

@jwurnig

Жыл бұрын

They didn't originally know when TNG was supposedly set. They didn't nail it down until after season 1. Roddenberry had wanted it to be left intentionally vague.

@enderkool

Жыл бұрын

although it's nice to have cameos and such, it's also quite nice to know the entire star trek universe isn't just a circlejerk of a few characters. of the entire federation, kirk/spock don't need to show up to save the day every time, if they were the only ones capable the federation would've collapsed a long time before.

I totally understand fan service - the finale for STSNW was great. Its just that we never really get to see a starship do what starships are supposed to do. Visiting new planets learning about new things, because its sort of boring. Basic science is boring. There can be wonder and humor but there isnt a whole lot of drama because there is no imminent disaster. Oooooh. Look, this planet has a 23% Argon isotope count and has a species of blue-gray moss covering the equatorial region. Hot DANG!!!

@kaitlyn__L

Жыл бұрын

I’m reminded of Elizabeth Lens being jealous of Bashir for having a whole planetary population to study medicine on, while “we were excited if we even found moss, then moved on to the next one”.

I think doing a Trek story set during the last three years of DS9 and during Dominion War that isn't DS9 could work. In fact I did it TWICE in tabletop RPGS. One where the players were the crew of a Cardassian Galor Class Warship. So they had enemies on five sides. They had enemy of their own Gul- a Dukat loyalist who they were almost certain would get them killed and/or start a war that would wind up destroying Cardassia, you had enemies like the Vorta the Jem'Hedar who they saw not as a sign of Cardassian superiority but a sign of weakness since the very existence of an alliance showed the galaxy they could no longer fight the Federation and Bajor and expect to win without their help, you had the Federation and Bajorans, you had the Klingons, and of course you had the Obsidian Order who would report them for being disloyal to Cardassia. Somehow that game lasted into a post 'What We Leave Behind' setting... which surprised even me... who was the GM. (The only canon Trek characters who appeared in that game were Dukat, Weyoun, Zek and Enobaran Tain.) The other was LESS popular with the players as it was basically a NON-Comedy version of Lower Decks and they realized that through completely avoidable circumstances, they could either a. allow Jem'Hedar troops to get the Guardians Planet - a which point game over, man, game over, or b. destroy their ship and take the Jem'Hedar with them.

Very well thought out. In hindsight, I think it would’ve been a mistake for Voyager to set itself in the stomping-grounds of Trek’s most iconic villains, and not used them at all. They could never have retained the menace they started with; TNG had decided not to try to top “Best of Both Worlds” after they’d been defeated once, but to tell a different kind of story with “I, Borg.” Then “Descent” and “First Contact” had come along and made some changes to them that I didn’t feel were for the best. But Voyager might have kept them as a menace far beyond what the Voyager crew could ever hope to fight, that they could only run or hide from.

never knew about Worf's sash was a reused prop. thanks man

All around me are familiar faces, Worn out places, worn out faces, Bright and early for The Star - Trek races, Going nowhere, going nowhere... Alternatively: To boldly go where every show has gone before.

I think that when TNG was made, they felt a very strong need to be so different, I think, like you , that was the best choice they could have gone for, and I think that since Voyager they wanted a sausage factory, I say Voyager cause I dare say you and I maybe agree on saying that DS9 was doubling down on the show being independent, it was happening basically at the same time as TNG so it was more of an extension ? in any case, Discovery is in a position where Voyager was in that it is in new waters and they can finally seek new lives and new civilizations and hopefully do it better than Voyager did, and SNW is capitalizing on the promise of Enterprise in that is is in an era that pre-dates TOS and it has continued to play with what we know rather than try to over explain it, just play with the toys man!

A structural change that actually came with TNG was the regular-character-focused B-plot, often largely unrelated or only tangentially connected to the main "ship in danger" storyline. TOS had not really done that except when there was a really integral connection to the A-story. It was more characteristic of completely unrelated shows like "The Love Boat" or "Barney Miller", and it let the episodes breathe in a way that was unusual for this kind of show. Then the later Star Trek shows all did that a lot. But a format change of a similar significance--I don't know what it would be--might be interesting.

Couldn't agree more, Steve. The "every single second of every day of every year of this character must be meticulously depicted on screen" is one of those most tiring, boring, eye rolling and regrettably ubiquitous trends of sci-fi/fantasy storytelling in recent years. Yeah showing the retrieval of the death star plans was an interesting unseen event with new characters, but no we don't need to see where Han Solo got his gun and his hanging dice from. Han literally couldn't even start with a surname we had to see the birth of that! That's where SNW worked, yes it had fanservice reference but it also refreshed legacy characters who had little to work with originally (T'pring/Nurse Chapel) to where they are essentially new characters.

Love this video! So many great points made.

29:35 glad to see the love for DS9 Season 1 which is honestly pretty damn good. Allamaraine and all.

I love how innovative TNG was, but it was more of an outlier, I think, then you imply. DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise all relied on prior material to be able to do anything. They all pulled from previous canon, previous shows. I would love for new shows to take as many risks, but it's very on-brand to do precisely what they're doing, yeah? hehe

@MattMcIrvin

Жыл бұрын

DS9 made the Cardassians, the Bajorans, the Trill and the Ferengi its own, and actually made them all more interesting than they had been before (especially the Ferengi, my God). But DS9 was also the biggest departure to that point from the Star Trek premise and episode formula, which might have been what allowed them to do that. Maybe the key is that they mostly didn't go for the really beloved elements of the universe right off the bat--these were all species that had been under-explored and in some cases poorly handled on the earlier show, not big fan favorites. They only started doing a lot of Klingon drama later on.

@MattMcIrvin

Жыл бұрын

...Voyager is an odd case in that they seemed to be trying very hard to wipe the slate clean and emphasize this was not Star Trek: TNG with the setup, but it didn't take.

@susanscott8653

Жыл бұрын

Enterprise was a bit different IMO, in that being a prequel it had to join what had been (its own show) to what would be (previous series). Even constructing that sentence was mind bending. 🤨

Regarding the toy box being so big: it's almost worth starting in a fresh verse, Schlock Mercenary and The Orville are some of my favorite star treks

The biggest lesson any show can learn from TNG is from seasons 3 onward: Don't be afraid to throw out the playbook and refocus the show. Don't change it drastically, instead focus on characters. TNG really improved when the edict came to focus on characters and make sure they grew from the beginning of the episode to the end. This was the main strength of DS9, a show whose premise depended on what TNG set up, until they introduced the Dominion, then they continued with the Cardassians and Klingons, but did new stuff with it. Most importantly, the characters grew. It's satisfying to see, especially with Kira and Odo. As much as I love Discovery, they need to do this and flesh out the rest of the crew.

As you mentioned the off-screen cardassian war, I really liked how that helped their universe seem bigger. Even just Federation space is huge and takes years to traverse from end to end, it makes sense that not everyone gets involved in every conflict unless it's civilization threatening like the Borg, and I really like it when the protagonists don't have to be involved in every single thing happening.

I'd be interested to hear your reasons for disliking Affliction/Divergence so much beyond just "It's doing something it didn't need to do", because I really like the episode and think it works perfectly well beyond the core premise. You could adjust fragments of the story such that it doesn't explain the forehead ridges thing and it would be a good episode beyond that. You could even go as simple as just removing the end part where all of the Klingons lose their ridges and then it offers a possible explanation without explicitly tying it down to one. Personally it's one of my favourite episodes of Enterprise and it does disappoint me hearing it described as a waste.

@kaitlyn__L

Жыл бұрын

I do enjoy Klingon Uncle Phil, and their society’s heartless response to a pandemic. I agree it would’ve been just as good (or even better) without the head ridges link. Just make it a humanitarian crisis for the Klingons.

Another great video Steve. Love these deep analysis topics. 😁

The big difference between now and the late 80's, when TNG was launched: Back then, we were collectively approaching the peak of our modern cultural, technological, and economic ascendancy. Since then, we've bottomed out in ways we could've scarcely imagined.

I completely agree, the best thing Star Trek can do is distance itself from all the baggage of the past and blaze a new trail forward. I know a lot of fans say this started with Modern Trek (I think they’re the worst offenders), but this has indeed been a problem with the franchise since Voyager. It’s had a legacy issue almost 30 years. I was also surprised to enjoy Prodigy as much as I did and I think it’s because it’s the most original take on the franchise in a long time. For my money, Prodigy has had the best first season of Trek in decades.

A: "Why aren't we running into the Borg?" B: "Because even a quarter of the galaxy is unimaginably huge and we're a single spec of a ship within in."

The character of Data embodies TNG: an entity that aspires to be more than who they are. TNG never gave up improving itself in its seven year run no matter the stumbles (hello, “Genesis”). And like the Plains Indians they never let any part of the buffalo go to waste! When something wasn’t working like the Ferengi not being fear inspiring villains they retooled them in season 3 as comic foils instead-and replaced them with The Borg as the series most fearsome adversary. A subpar episode like “Datalore” led to two excellent episodes down the line (“Brothers” and “Silicon Avatar”). If I may I also add to Steve’s very insightful list: The continuity! I know some will grouse, but the attention to detail (usually subtly done) really made the 24th century seem like a real place. It was a quiet world building that could give JMS a run for his money. They made the TNG characters act like they were people from another time and not transplanted from our contemporary world to the future. It had a verisimilitude that had you believe that these were advanced people from an advanced version of the human race in the future (before DS9 came along). When they preached about humanity improving and growing it was sincerely put and believable! And most importantly THE WRITING! Michael Piller’s “Murderers Row” of TV writers that made magic on screen: Ronald D. Moore, Jeri Taylor, Brannon Braga, Joe Menosky, Ira Steven Behr, Robert Hewitt Wolfe, Peter Allen Fields, Rene Echevarria, Naren Shankar, among others. This doesn’t even count the mind-blowlingly rare open submission policy! TNG 4 EVR!

Good video! I know that Lower Decks isnt your favorite show, but I really think that it can be the nostalgia dive that many fans want. Fit ALL the rear looks and references in this show and keep all the nostalgic content more or less out of the other shows. This can really work since the lookbacks are 90% of what that show is trying to do anyway. Though because of my deep DEEP love of DS9 and Avery Brooks, I really want to revisit his character. Just my thoughts on that

I'm probably talking out of my butt on this, but we're gonna go for it, anyway. Star Trek TOS is a sci fi show, that had sci fi writers on staff. TNG hit this kinda sweet spot where they had sci fi writers, and then decided to go into a more character-driven model, but they still had really good sci fi writers on staff. I worry that the modern trek shows just have the character drama writers on staff. I've enjoyed a lot of the new shows, but original sci fi plots have not been forthcoming. Maybe what it's going to take, for a new series to really forge its own path, is to hire innovative sci fi writers again.

I couldn't agree more, and I'm glad that you're the one to say it while you have the ear of all these young diehard Kurtzman Trek fans who can't imagine that it could be much better than it is right now.

Most important Trek, Actually video ever, Steve. I hope your audience includes people who can make a difference.

I really enjoyed this. I think you hit the nail right on the head. I am going to now witter about canon but hear me out before you beat me down. I do get annoyed when nu trek does stuff that contradicts canon but it is more that it feels like the subject could have easily been a new problem/conflict as opposed to using a pre-existing asset. It feels like current Trek writers are too scared to do stuff with out chucking in a bunch of member berries and then they end up contradicting stuff and upsetting a bunch of folk when we could have had that same story without any of that. The thing with TNG era trek is when you did get those call backs and crossovers they where like a proper treat because they rarely occurred but when they did there was a fairly decent bit of story/drama with it. Unification and Relics work as stories that actually service those characters, it is not just a gratuitous here is Spock, remember him? I have enjoyed Strange New Worlds but does La’an need to be related to Khan? I think she would work just as well just being descended from augmented humans. Bashir ended up being genetically modified but he was not Khan’s grandson. The drama came from his situation not being a descendent of a character. I like canon because it adds flavour to the dish but like any flavour you can ruin the dish by over using it and I get annoyed when canon is contradicted but that is usually because the canon used did not need to be there in the first place. The meal would have been bloody lovely without it. I hope that make sense. It is very warm where I am at the moment and I have had some beers.

I like how TNG series was presented. It was different from the oringal. And managed to give several honorable references to the oringal without over doing it. Moved forward without forgetting the past. Loved the fact that an very elderly MCCOY made an appearance in the TNG pilot episode. TNG Made it possible for crossovers for DS9 too. love cross overs 😎🤘.

The Kazon are the Ferengi of VOY, the only difference being that the VOY writer - unlike the TNG writers - didn't drop the concept after the first failed attempt. They took a risk. It didn't pay off (much), but at least they took a risk.

They should consider advancing the timeline again for the next "new" trek. The temporal cold war could be a fantastic backdrop for a new series.

@kaitlyn__L

Жыл бұрын

Discovery S3 and S4 already did that, unless you mean a century before then.

I totally agree. It's a little disappointing that the creatives behind Trek haven't learned yet from the mistakes of ST: Enterprise. I would argue that all the callbacks, retcons, and "explanations" were the most detrimental to that show and ultimately the reason why it just didn't work out. By the time they learned from their mistake and started to create new stories (the Xindi arc), it was already too late for the series. And don't get me started on that series finale.

@susanscott8653

Жыл бұрын

Enterprise suffered from a lot of interference from TPTB. It's last 2 seasons were an improvement IMO. I have to agree about the finale though - one episode I would love to see retconned.

Everyone probably already knows this but I just noticed for the first time today that Robert Picardo was Meg Mucklebones in the 1985 movie "Legend".

When you're dealing with a franchise like Star Trek, including some of what's come before it can be part of the fun for those writers and the audience they're writing for, but I definitely appreciate the argument that writers shouldn't use what has come before it as a crutch for their own stories. As you said, writers can come up with all sorts of excuses not to encounter something as widespread and enticing as the Borg. With about seven times the amount of hours of backstory to contend with than when TNG debuted and studios less willing to go boldly, it can be harder to color outside the lines. It's a balancing act between embracing the fictional world of the franchise without resorting to fan service on one side and making something so different it doesn't even fit within the confines of that fictional world on the other. And not everyone agrees where that tipping point is or what those confines are. Ask 100 Trekkies what Star Trek is and you'll get 100 different answers.

Don't forget The Love Boat: The Next Wave!

"To boldly go where no one has gone before"... after we swing by your old favorites!

I would make one exception to looking forward - evolution and their consequences and it’s effect on your story and your characters… if there are interesting or thought provoking questions and consequences for your characters based on previous stories and previous character choices/non-choices and/or you think the logical evolution can provide interesting character growth, you should take advantage and tell that story. If it’s just there for a set dressing or Easter egg, unless that’s the whole point, you don’t need to return there.

I would enjoy a show about the USS Aires. In S2 of TNG, Riker was offered command of this ship. It was months away from the Enterprise, at high warp. It’s in the same timeframe, but exploring a new place in the galaxy. TNG referenced a potentially interesting character in Cmdr. Flaherty. The show could ignore what was going on closer to Earth and have its own adventures.

@TheMule47

Жыл бұрын

i also thought the idea of the Aires's mission, a small, out-dated ship going alone into an unknown part of the galaxy seemed exciting. I once kicked around the idea of an alternate timeline fanfic where Riker and Worf went to the Aires, and they and that crew had adventures and got involved in different ways to TNG arcs like the Klingon Civil War. i never went beyond the outline stage, but it seemed like a fun idea.

I do 100% agree with your points in this video. I've been saying the same things, either in the comments section here or another Trek channel. There's only one thing i can say about Discovery. It should have been set after Nemesis. If they wanted someone related to a legacy character, just make Burnham Spok's granddaughter or his adopted daughter. After dropping that nugget of information, just go from there. They don't have to reference it again or hit us over the head with it. Similar to Kirk having a nephew and he's never brought up again after that episode, as well his brother and sister-in-law dying that episode.

Personally I really love how they bothered to explain the different appearances of Klingons. They actually mentioned this for the first time in DS9. Of course you could have accepted it as an evolution in filmmaking but having an in-universe explanation is just great world building. I love details like that.

Television has changed a lot. In the 60s there were 26-29 episodes of a show in a season. 13 episodes was a half-season. By the 90s a season was standardized to 26 episodes (so you could show each episode twice in a 52 week season). They needed to make a lot of stories. Almost every story had a 3+2 structure (prologue plus 3-act plus epilogue) structure. TOS had 78 individual stories, TNG had 176ish, DS9 173 but it was partially serialized so take a bunch off for the dominion war, Voyager 168, Enterprise 97. Even the animated series had 22 unique episodes (Mudd and tribbles notwithstanding). They has to write and produce a HUGE number of stories. "Modern" Trek has only 1 story per season in a 10 act, "save the cat" structure with one act per "episode" (this is the reason that "episode" 7 or 8 of this style of shows is usually relatively boring). In terms of original Star Trek, we have actually only had 4 actual episodes of Discovery, 2 of Picard. Lower Decks has 20 stories so far and Strange New Worlds has 10. If will take 17 seasons of each of those to match the number of episodes in 1990s era Trek!

Steve, I also would like to see new Star Trek which isn't strongly connected to previous iterations of Trek. Something that has a new ship, new characters, new frontiers, and so on. The people currently running Trek have proved that good (and even great) new Star Trek can be done, so I think they could do a truly new show. I was very excited when TNG started, then disappointed for a while, and then excited again when it got so much better. I wish they would do something similarly fresh again.

Love the Springsteen name drop at the beginning! Totally agree!

"Few, if no, guest appearances" Fuck that, if I don't get a Jeffrey Combs cameo, I riot.

“So, make it.” I love it!

10 years ago I wrote up a fanfic episode/pilot called Star Trek Gen 3. It had Wes Crusher as the captain of a new generation of Enterprise, with a cast rounded out by other characters like Alexander Roschenko, Jake Cisco, and Ichep on the crew. Its still something I'd love to see someday.

The Neutral zone would also be a rough continuation of balance of terror, but a retake on the story. In that episode it was the as yet unnamed Borg who were responsible, the episode mirrored the events of balance to unfold the story.

25:00 those people should look up Dan Olson’s “The Thermian Argument” video