God has blessed me with faith I still miss going to church I love the doctrine I have health issues and no way to go.I am 75 years old I have never left the Church.

The reactions to faith crisis are an indication of our view of the Savior. Christ's ministry dealt with people, and invited us not to judge, dismiss, or choose who to comfort and mourn.

I'm a former member - you have no idea how important this conversation is to those of us who left and struggle with much confusion, psychological pain, fears, etc. Many of us leave because we just can't deal with being treated like employees submitting to corporate managers. Spencer, you hit it on the head with the 'pastoral role' - that's the #1 solution- relationships that don't judge. My sins might be 'worse' than yours but if I'm labeled, disfellowshipped/excommunicated, and then - to top off all the internal struggles - we are told (labeled) apostates (out group) with NO CHANCE OF SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH MEMBERSHIP - regardless of desires to live, love, help, serve outside the church - that creates hopelessness, anxiety, and the inability to think clearly as the brain (amygdala) hijacks the spiritual brain and anxiety/fear take over. Simplistic thinking leaders and members (I was one) learned that 'well, if you'd just stop sinning, you wouldn't be anxious' - but those beliefs need to be identified (i.e., leaders need to learn blind spots and unknown areas of self; emotional intelligence is lacking) and discussed. Self-deception for the sake of 'certainty' and security are harming the growth mindset of the institution and its leaders. Many of us could contribute to the community in BIG ways but we are treated like enemies and apostates when, in reality, we don't know what's from God and what's from leaders' personal views. In marketing, we look at messages and communication, including the 'source' of the message and the 'media' of that message. If the leader is the medium and the church is the source of the message, credibility and trust are essential - trust is based on character and competence. Stephen R. Covey (7 Habits) wrote about this in many of his books. The church is lacking in both - they would increase trust in members if they would make a strategic decision with long-term impact - to confront the ugly and confusing past and help us deal with it; to develop and 'outward mindset' - see members as people, equal to themselves, with grieving, struggles with normal 'sins' (including developmental sexual sins, behaviors that are symptomatic of deeper emotional struggles, etc.) - never give up (Uchtdorf), mourn with people who sin or grieve over loss of worldview. To excommunicate and continue with the narrative of 'only saved through membership' seems very incomplete - it disempowers God from doing what He sees as fair and good. The word apostate is harmful - people leave for health reasons! They are good people beyond their struggles (Mason discussed this). I recall my letter from church HQ when I resigned. They told me that my salvation was in jeopardy, which emphasized the importance of membership, not character and growth! The shameful self-concepts that are perpetuated through the cultural language of 'us/them' have psychologically harmed many individuals. Can Jesus save people who have left the church? Basic question. Have the leaders, in effect, robbed God of His power through exclusive claims on power? Who has the reward power, God or the church? Is it an exclusive license they received as 'distribution channels' for salvation or has God retained the right to grant salvation as a 'direct channel of distribution' ? You guys did a great job with this video - what are you doing to help the leadership and struggling members dialogue? What organizational 'systems' and 'structures' are being created beyond the outdated (not aligned with this tech-driven world of information) missionary program??? An emerging and growing number of members need a new structure, new leadership style (servant leadership, not authoritarian leadership), new leadership behaviors and authentic communication that encourages voicing concerns and challenging decisions! Until the programmers change their mental models, mindsets, and assumptions, the programs, structures, relational habits, and systems won't change. If they want the fruit, they need to start at the root of correct principles and the church is not the proper focal point; principles should inform the church. As it stands, the church and leaders inform decisions - this inward mindset perpetuates unhelpful attitudes toward others as objects/things to be commanded - with no ability to self-direct, self-correct, and exercise freedom without fear of social punishment. Best points - grieve with others, trust is the fundamental issue (trust crisis), people are more than labels. Misuse of 'reward power' is abusive! The power of leaders is only as good as its use of love and moral authority. Using fear to gain temple/tithing/moral compliance is short-term and behavioral, not transformational. Only through love/charity will people ever be transformed. The culture of performance and works needs to be balanced with 'change of heart', long suffering, sincere/authentic relationships. Leaders either care about people or they don't. If they see membership as the goal, the person is not important. If people really matter, membership status should not matter!!!

@jeffellis6586

3 жыл бұрын

John, Thank you for sharing your comments. They are exceptionally well thought out, and I agreed and appreciated the things you said. As a person who was put into a leadership position years ago, i learned that the church includes a wide variety of open and closed minded people. I have consistently gravitated to those people with open minds who are guided by love. The world, not just the church, needs more of such people. keep up the good work. Your message is important. You, even more so.

@anichols2760

2 жыл бұрын

Wow. Looks like I'm two years late but I just saw this video. I can appreciate a lot of what you said and I'm an active member. I just want to remphasize how important love and concern (as an equal rather than a subordinate) is in church relations. My wife and I had a stiilborn, and grief, clinical anxiety, and depression followed for the next 17 years. I had rigorously studied the gospel since my youth and had spiritual experiences and understood certain concepts better than my bishops at the time. I'm not saying it to toot my own horn but rather to point out that while suffering grief and depression I watched myself go from having older bishops to younger bishops. I never did get called into leadership. Which is fine. Obtaining a leadership position is not an indicator of spiritual progression although some believe it is . But the feeling I got was this judgement that somehow since I was still an elder I must not have been choice enough or spiritually mature enough. What didn't bother me at first became an irritation as I watched leader after leader (not all of them but sufficient enough) appear as a peacock who puffs out its feathers with pride to secure himself a female. I can't tell you how spiritually insulted I felt and still feel to watch those who attain leadership who instead of demonstrating true charity and humility couldn't indulge themselves enough in self-aggrandizement and feelings of superiority. I could hear it in their tone and observe it in their countenance and actions. I know it has nothing to do with being a member of this church but rather is a weakness of pride that can be found in any religion or societal institution. If ministering by leaders and members were focused on creating true friendships that dipped below the superficial and were genuine and real I think some of us would suffer less. I don't need a spiritual thought by my ministers. I don't need a lesson. I can do that on my own. I want friendship and true brotherhood that reflects the angelic discipleship so often reflected in the scriptures and modern life stories heard in conference talks. We all know that no one is perfect. So there is no need to walk around as if one is superior. We all see through it. Repentance is a process and we all need it. Love and support through each others struggles generates a warmer feel than harsh treatment and judgements that are often arbitrary. Church culture would improve if we all were a bit more genuine. We speak of trust. Maybe we should trust one another a bit more by being vulnerable and less judgemental. There seem to be a lot of strict personal views fraught with personal judgement and interpretations on standards of the gospel that often make it uncomfortable for those with opposing viewpoints. How wonderful church would be if we all asked ourselves "how can I make church comfortable for LGBTQ, for the transgressor, for those who were excommunicated, for those who don't feel safe in the faith, etc?" The list can go on. God wants us all there. We can each work through our own issues focusing on our own sins rather than another's. And leaders should have training on section 121 of the doctrine and covenants and realize just because they are called doesn't mean they have the supreme understanding of doctrine and that everyone else around them is somehow spiritually inferior. It can really make good people struggle to fit in at church.

@mozart9991

2 жыл бұрын

The Church isn't true. I hope that helps. All the best.

@danielmoore4024

2 жыл бұрын

To me it has a great dependence on public culture as I see different stories in different areas of the world. I've read so many stories involving family members being disowned, the hatred I see held by some exmembers, some feeling-or were lied to, I've even read some suicide stories and most of them tend to be western cultures. I don't understand how members can disregard these accounts. I'm an active member of the church but I've never witnessed any of these devastating accounts where I live in the UK, I've read accounts by people in Hawaii and they haven't witnessed these stories. Even though I'm an active member I agree The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints fits the criteria of the BITE Model. America seems very obsessed with behavioural control, others and I have been involved with an organisation called "Applied Behaviour Analysis" ABA, as the most common therapy for autism. ABA by Americans with the father Ivar Lovaas, this ABA also fits the BITE Model criteria and people subjected to ABA give related stories like PTSD and suicide to exmembers of the church. So it seems anything that fits the criteria of the BITE Model is potentially harmful even if it has good intentions.

@danielmoore4024

2 жыл бұрын

@@mozart9991 Saying "The Church isn't true" is just as useless as "The Church is true," I reading the church isn't true hasn't made me shake at all, so I'm sorry but your hope is in vain. Even though I'm an active member I hate seeing and hearing the children say at the start of each month "... I know this church is true." I see that as abuse, because below the age of 8 people are living in a hypnotic state, by repetitively saying "I know this church is true." during that hypnotic state hypnotizes them to believe they know when they obviously don't. Below the age of 8 people do not yet have the brain capacity to have a conscience so they live by theta/hypnosis.

I so agree with your idea of the mourning and pain that I felt when I found church history that was so disturbing to me. I feel like many active members believe that people who leave the church just want to sin, or that they were offended by something. But if they were offended, shouldn't that be addressed instead of judging them for being offended?

As an ex-Mormon, I found this incredibly validating. That part near the beginning about feeling shamed and judged especially. I know that I still feel like my parents are judging me because I don't fit into the mold of what a perfect daughter would be to them, and it hurts. thank you so much for being willing to see our side of the story and *empathize* with us. I doubt I'll ever come back, but things like this give me hope that there is still good within this organization that's given me so much pain. Thank you.

@CrossFitTRG

3 жыл бұрын

I like that you have kept even a small door open for the future. You are strong to do that.

@janetgaurie7163

2 жыл бұрын

Do your parents want you to be “perfect” to validate themselves? You should listen to Jared Halverson (Unshaken). He is the most loving and non judgmental teacher. You will feel free of other people’s molds and from guilt. Mormon culture has created ideals that are no longer that accurate. This teacher (Halverson) has helped me a lot. Good luck.

I think history is very important. I don't think we would have near the problems we are having today if people had a better sense of history.

@Sayheybrother8

Жыл бұрын

I also think had the churches history been presented more accurately and less faithfully for over a hundred years we’d have fewer problems. In the 80’s and 90’s they shouldn’t have lied and said all the crazy stuff was anti and to avoid it at all costs. When I found out the “anti” stuff was history it made me wonder why they were so concerned we’d find out. Could it be because it is concerning?

Yes, it’s “worse” “Exceedingly sorrowful unto death” Horrific heartache not because of the doubt of my spouse,(and now all my children) but bc of the The hatred and mean spirited mocking and persecution toward me, as the spouse who “stayed” . It’s hard to mourn with someone who is so bitter, condescending and unkind-I’m happy to be understanding and open, but not when kindness and understanding are not reciprocated-no one on any “side” should be abusively angry🥲 The pain is horrifying. Im deeply sorry to those who know this pain. Keep trusting in The Lord even though you are so very weary💔

Yes. Please keep talking about this. So many families are so hurt and broken from both sides of this. I think it is so unnecessary. We all need to learn a little better to allow other to have the agency to make choices that they feel are closer to the truth. On both sides.

@bipolarrambling242

2 жыл бұрын

This is so wonderfully said!

After 50 years of complete devotion to the LDS church , I am finding myself closer each day, to leaving. I have tried to talk to my Mom and 3 siblings. They REFUSE to listen. They have changed the topic or physicallly just walk away. The only people I can talk to are my ex-Mormon,friends and x husband. I just want to share my recent path of the last 3 months so they don’t think I jumped into this impulsel. The family and other friends are “willing to mourn” with me. Bless them. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and history with me. Though teary,I feel more committed.

@davidjanbaz7728

2 жыл бұрын

Check out Dr.Michael S.Heiser videos.

@scottbrandon6244

2 жыл бұрын

I am sorry you are going through this. I do find members are part of the problem. When I made it known in priesthood class that members need a place to go and air their faith crisis questions, I was shot down. Many individual members lack critical thinking about their faith and accept things without question. They will change the subject on anything about doctrine or history. I also feel many members remain ignorant about history, doctrine, church policy or failures of the church. They remain "willfully blind" as the expression goes. It is also easy to dismiss objectionable information about the church as "anti" when much of this on the church website. People who leave also are tired of not having the church more transparent with current and past problems.

Trust crisis is spot on Spencer. Trust in men who have hurt others in the name of prophecy and doctrine. Trust in the spirit that told us that something was true only to find out it isn’t exactly true in the ways the heart believed when it felt the power of its influence. It’s hard to trust when the proof that those things can’t be trusted is in our hearts and minds. I’m impressed with the amount of faith you two demonstrate by continuing on the path knowing what you know.

You brothers get it. Why doesn't the Apostles say this? It needs to come from the pulpit.Families are being destroyed. Also members constantly harassing the family who leaves drives them further away.

When you mention about those who leave religion behind when they leave the church: I am a "convert". I grew up in a church-going family. One big reason why I was attracted to this church is because of how Biblical it is, compared to other churches. It's like, when you like hamburgers, and you eat hamburgers a lot, but one day you go to a five star restaurant and eat the finest steak or prime rib, and you know you can never go back to hamburgers. It's like Christ's apostles, when He asks "will you go, too?" Where would I go?

He doesn't even go to other countries except America and Canada, where most of lds are born into the covenant. I will not even bother read it. I am a convert from South America, where you have to fight alone because there are not lds in schools, family circles, etc. So all this makes you strong enough to understand that we "alone" have to fight to obtain the strength from Heaven.

@RaeannPeck

5 жыл бұрын

I think you would miss a nice opportunity, nonetheless. A generation or two you might remember the things discussed here and they might apply to assist your children or grandchildren.

@scottbrandon6244

2 жыл бұрын

Since 2007 the church has known over half of the church conversions each year are singles. The majority of the current membership globally are single adults. Canada has 190,000 members and the majority were not born under the covenant. South Africa sounds a lot like the UK where they feel isolated and alone and cut off from mainstream mormons in the U.S.

Great

3rd Nephi says not to cast them out of synagogues, but it explicitly says NOT to have them be members or they'll destroy the people. And we currently do that. We let anyone attend our meetings, but we don't give them all membership.

This may be better than what’s been offered in the past yet it continues to fall short. A core issue I have with apologists like these two men is that they never, ever mention the official church itself and never ever hold the church accountable for the problems and issues they’re addressing. By doing that, they actually further the gaslighting perpetrated by the church which blames the individual for falling short, rather than tracing the shortcoming to its source: the official church. So while I can empathize with the instincts that fuel such efforts to redeem the church from itself, I ultimately find efforts like this to be unhelpful in bringing about real change and healing.

"Those People" you refer to people like me who found out the church wasn't what it claimed to be and left those people.

Why emeritus?

These problems are found in every church, community and country. Faith in Jesus Christ by people in and out of the church is the answer - Jesus takes away pain ultimately, but the right counsellor can help. Unfortunately, when I listen to these scholarly type You Tube productions I find them too academically and do not feel spiritual listening to them. Sorry guys but that is how I find these things.

It goes : Agency-Choice-Consequence. God gave us agency. If you think you can stand up against Him; good luck with that.

Do not cast members out of the Church. Tell General Authorities to stop excommunicating members out of the Church for a difference of opinions in the History and Theology and their doubts about the Church.

@scottbrandon6244

2 жыл бұрын

No excommunication anymore. They now call it membership removal. The whole process has caused many people to have PTSD afterwards.

@danielmoore4024

2 жыл бұрын

@@scottbrandon6244 To me it has a great dependence on public culture as I see different stories in different areas of the world. I've read so many stories involving family members being disowned, the hatred I see held by some exmembers, some feeling-or were lied to, I've even read some suicide stories and most of them tend to be western cultures. I don't understand how members can disregard these accounts. I'm an active member of the church but I've never witnessed any of these devastating accounts where I live in the UK, I've read accounts by people in Hawaii and they haven't witnessed these stories. Even though I'm an active member I agree The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints fits the criteria of the BITE Model. America seems very obsessed with behavioural control, others and I have been involved with an organisation called "Applied Behaviour Analysis" ABA, as the most common therapy for autism. ABA by Americans with the father Ivar Lovaas, this ABA also fits the BITE Model criteria and people subjected to ABA give related stories like PTSD and suicide to exmembers of the church. So it seems anything that fits the criteria of the BITE Model is potential abuse.

@cc-mk2hp

2 жыл бұрын

@@scottbrandon6244 changing the name of it ...lol. That's not much.

I should say " you people" need to know that no matter what you do or say, can't change the facts. No matter what you say, people are not coming back.

Interesting: discussing people who leave the church without involving people who *have* left the church.

@wilhelmtell536

2 жыл бұрын

Do doctors need to have a broken arm to create conditions that can give broken bone the best opportunity to properly heal?

Why don't you discuss the facts that nothing in the BOM has any evidence to support it? Can you blame anyone who think BOM is worthless?

@frandanco6289

Жыл бұрын

So, you are saying that the Testator of Truth, the Holy Ghost does testify to us that The Book of Mormon is Not True???

14:30 the "no empty seats" thing is such horrible soteriology. I'm convinced that a "progression between kingdoms" is the only thing that makes sense, given how loving Heavenly Father is. If there are "empty seats" in the Celestial Kingdom then they won't be empty forever. Everyone comes back home...eventually.

@williamturner6192

3 жыл бұрын

No. There are clearly those who will choose when faced with the choice to knowingly not return. People will be given every chance to be who and what they want to be but there are those who in the end won't want it and will choose otherwise. People do sometimes walk away knowingly rather than in doubt.

@PainH8er

2 жыл бұрын

I agree with this! As long as someone is WILLING and WANTING to progress, I believe they will always have that opportunity through eternity.

Nice intellectual conversation between two very naive scholars. When people are challenged in their spiritual lives they are open to answers. The answer that appeals to the basest parts of us is the easy one. In order for people to progress the answers are hard. The answer is Jesus Christ. Stick to the basic gospel and you will find peace. Then look to the temple and find even more information about Jesus Christ.

Jana Reiss' study wasn't "massive"

@ethanf.237

4 жыл бұрын

Oxford press seems to disagree with you.....

Mt

It's nonsense from beginning to end.