Paradox is a perfect name for a disc that flies an inverted flight path

@dblevins343

7 ай бұрын

Absolutely love that disc.

@Fortune090

6 ай бұрын

@@dblevins343 Personal favorite too! Grab any new plastic I see them made in. Personal favorite so far is the OTB Open Eclipse. Flippiest is a light R2, IMO.

@KarstRats

5 ай бұрын

@@Fortune090champion paradox discs can finish left pretty decently or finish right with a good pump on it.

The basilisk came in a tournament pack I played in a few months back, it was an accident from the tournament director haha. He told us “you might as well use it as a dog toy or give it to a 6 year old cause it’s near useless”. It’s genuinely the strangest disc I’ve ever held. So much pop top and really odd plastic. I was messing around with it in field work one time and threw a sky roller that actually flipped upside down then all the way back to right side up all while it was still in the air.

As someone who has a weak forehand, im definitely looking forward to this one.

MVP Orbital should definitely be on this list. Would have also liked to have seen the Axiom Vanish, and the Westside Queen and Westside Destiny. I used to to throw a discmania astronaut, but like Greg said, mine stopped being understable for me for some reason.

@MrAggezzz

6 ай бұрын

Westside Destiny was my favorite drivers when I started but now it is just so flippy I don't use it anymore.

I have a theory about factory-seconds, that they might just be the first discs they pump out once the the mold is on it's way to being up to optimal operating temperature, A mold too cold can have the plastic start to cool sooner, while still in the mold, affecting it's dome. And them not even bothering to put a stamp onto them (rather, a F2 stamp) kind of supports this thesis, because they know. It's not like a mis-stamp where the foil is messed up or a second foil is misaligned. What I'm getting at, is to never use F2-stamped discs for evaluations, or even, reaching conclusions (like "may vary quite a bit from run to run"). I'm not coming in defense of innova here - I'm making this point about all brands. When you do evals, use discs that, according to the manufacturer, are within parameters, not F2s.

@NickCarroll

7 ай бұрын

This makes a lot of sense. The discs may not be damaged, but might be less accurate. I also think this is more a problem the faster the disc is. About 1/3 of my bag is Innova F2 and they all fly exactly as the numbers indicate. But then again I throw mostly 7 speeds and less, so I just think there's less variance in factors. Or those factors have less effect.

@petrafied99

7 ай бұрын

Good point! Thanks for the comment. I’ve been perplexed by some F2 flights.

@glousy8300

5 ай бұрын

Maybe, but if so innova at least is full of it because they specifically say flight path will not vary due to defect. I have seen color imperfections and air bubbles. I agree though, that the specific conditions around molding and cooling seem to play a big role

@ElessarofGondor

2 ай бұрын

I wish Innova would do a ranking for F2s in a way. There’s a big difference between the color or stamp being off vs the shape being a bit different.

If you really want to get more amateurs/novice players into this series, I recommend trying the understable Fairways out. I personally think these are the best distance discs for beginners. The Signal and Vortex are my personal favorites. Light weights are also great such as my 162g Crave (Fission) and light weight River (Opto Air).

@cottonkeef5633

7 ай бұрын

Westside Underworld can not get enough praise in that regard

@dblevins343

7 ай бұрын

@@cottonkeef5633 I ended up not picking one up because I found the Vortex to be amazing. But it did tempt me.

Ayy good to see Greg throwing discs again!! Love the content and keep it coming 🤘

Looking forward to this one! :) These kind discs in specific conditions are so good! (Not powering up all the way saves the body and energy for the next shot, and the next and then next round and not being tired afterwards!) Bagging MVP Orbital and the Viking Discs Berserker, cheatcodes for easy understandable distance! Gotten 2 400' rollers with the Berserker, one involuntary ofc.. xD

really glad you wrapped up this vid with comments around the intersection of understability and usability - I personally bag a Star Mamba and GStar Shryke for this slot and use an MVP for forehands - this seems to work pretty well for me and I typically throw 300 ft +/- 20 feet - great vid!

Becoming one of my favourite disc golf channels mate. You do a good job presenting the discs, reviews & flight paths

Would you please do a comparison video of discs with (new) and without (removed) flashing? Flashing is considered a "molding imperfection" and "moderate sanding" is allowed to remove flashing per PDGA rules 813.01 B 2. Seems most pros I know are very familiar with flashing while most ams are not. Sexton caries a sanding tool with him in his bag for new discs (makes them less stable and more true to their flight numbers) whereas Locastro looks for discs with extra flashing (makes them much more stable which works well for his anhyzer style). This subject is under-discussed in my opinion, and could help many advance their game.

I was shocked to see the Latitude 64 Bolt left off the list.

@Aoltooliol

Ай бұрын

And the Sapphire

Great video greg! thanks for the content. I am currently in love with the lonestar growler. Its a faster harrier and the low speed fade is way more apparent on it. It's the most thrown disc in my bag and bravo plastic is so wonderfully grippy and tacky.

I bought the basilisk once because it sounded fun and i didn't expect it to be that much more understable than a mamba. Well it often felt close to not throwable, so seeing it as the most understable disc on the list makes a lot of sense

@sandonhoneyman

7 ай бұрын

Divergent Discs advertises they are for people who throw under 300ft. I bought a Basilisk when I first started and at first it threw great, a little turn and fade. Now that I can throw a bit farther, (but still under 250ft!) It immediately turns into a roller. However, it isn't easy to find an easy roller disc for lower arm speed so I don't mind it. If I can improve my distance it might be less useful though.

I have a Lat64 Havoc in Opto and it's flippier than a Mamba, and I have a Havoc in Opto-X and it flies like a Destroyer. Both are 174g. I've given up on flight numbers, I just grab discs that feel good, test them out, and work them into whatever slot in my bag is best. 🤷‍♂

Great video. The content you put out in this series is must--see-KZread for any disc golfer. Thanks so much.

Perfect timing. Trying to add understable mids and drivers to my bag currently since I have lots of neutral and OS discs

@joeydupont7664

7 ай бұрын

Get a rollo, very understable but surprisingly mine never rolls. Worst case, you have a stupid fun disc to throw.

@justinbutler8418

7 ай бұрын

@@joeydupont7664 yeah just picked up an Ethos Mantra since I heard they fly more US than the numbers. Looking at a Paradox or Rollo to try out.

@joeydupont7664

7 ай бұрын

@@justinbutler8418 I’ve heard the paradox isn’t as flippy, and it’s a quicker flip from the paradox. The rollo is a slow flip that never stops.

I can recommend that you test out the Westside discs Destiny in a follow up video. It’s number ”don’t matter” to the extent that they make it seem more stable than it is (at 14,6,-2,3). However while I need to throw it like a 7-9 speed for it not to flip over, it is truly fast, and bombs more than any disc I have tried. It has earned a very permanent spot in my bag :)

I don't have a crazy arm, just moving into Advance this season, and my Berserker is easily the most understable high-speed driver i've thrown, to the point where it's roller-only for me and insanely difficult to try to control. I have an ooooold Gold Line Havoc from Latitude 64 and that's always been a wonderfully understable driver for me, and the first one that I learned to control and break 400' in a field, but i've tried multiple plastics and runs and they vary way too much, light numbers don't matter. lol

Rollo is a good name for the new innovation. And indeed for the Viking Beserker - throw it up-hill or much higher in general and it will fade (like any disc). They could have put a 0 or a 1 for the fade...

The Westside discs Sword(flight numbers don't matter), Sorcerer(aptly named that one it's just pure sorcery how easily it flies a decent distance) and the Queen are all very slept on understable drivers and workable options for forehanding for slower forehand speeds with the queen and sorcerer being very comfortably shaped for that as well.

@kevinparker5384

7 ай бұрын

The sorcerer hasnt been understable for me, but one disc i think you should add as an understable driver out of westside, is the destiny. the destiny replaced my discmania astronaut.

@inimitableminimalist

7 ай бұрын

the sword I have is pretty overstable, even though it's base plastic and well beaten in. underworld is the flippy westside disc I'd recommend.

@abrahamnagy7882

7 ай бұрын

the king is also an uber understable distance driver that is supposed to be 14 5 -1 4, according to westside. Flew more like 12 5 -3 1 for me

Is it possible to get these test results in some kind of spreadsheet with like how true or not true to their numbers are? It would be nice when I'm in the disc store, if i had a document i could reference. I try to do this with infinite discs, but the reviews are too inconsistent.

Love your videos, but there's another major factor besides arm speed and spin that greatly affects turn and that's nose angle. Working with a Tech Disc since November, I quickly learned, much to my surpise, how much NEGATIVE nose angle (-4.0) can turn your disc faster and make anything appear more understable. You just can't see +1 or +3 degree nose-up in flight, so many players "think" they are nose-down and are not. Hyzer angle is important too, of course, but nose angle is a big key.

Tumbleweed is one of my favorite discs. As you can see from the flight it's understable but still has decent integrity which allows great Hyzer flip shots and super distance rollers cause it doesn't burn over. It will roll mostly straight. I've gotten my only Eagle with a Tumbleweed roller.

Very well done. I'm beginning to hate your videos, because now I have to buy yet another disc. lol ;)

Thank you so much for this series. It's the most realistically informative video series out there. I can't imagine the amount of money saved from people being able to purchase discs that more closely do what they want. You guys rock! and thanks for sharing 😊

For understable shots I use the Vibrum Lace. For rollers I use a Dx Mamba.

Great video. Always wish there was more discs tested ofcourse. Missing for example the Mvp/axiom line-up and things like the discraft Hades. But still very comprehensive and good show of variance at different arm speeds.

I had a Basilisk and knew it would be the champ here. That thing flips back in time. I bag a D4 and D6 and they are fantastic. Future suggestions for this series: Innova DX Katana Prodigy F9

The Mint Freetail I got in your mystery pack is my go to in this slot, followed by Elevation Binx for shorter drives. Also super cool to see other people throw the Shryke. It flies true to its numbers for you guys too! I lost my first Shryke on a remote course on the other side of my country last summer. I bought a Tern as a replacement because of the similar flight numbers but they are veeeeery different! 😂

Companies need to make it clear what type of plastic disc they used when coming up with flight numbers!

I bag both an Astronaut, and a Thrasher. Sounds like a waste of bag space to carry two very similar discs, but the Astronaut holds a very long smooth turn with great distance for me. The Thrasher is more stable ( for me) and tends to have a reliable fade. I am 58 years old and throw both in the 330 - 350’ range depending on height and release angles. The Astronaut is a must carry at my home course due to a long turning Mando shot, but does not come out of the bag all that often on other courses. I do not have a good distance forehand, hence the untestable option. Thanks for the in depth review.

My light weight fission wave 11, 5, -2.5, 2 @ 148g that I got in my MVP Heist mystery box a year or so ago will turn over and just keep flying. Very fun turnover disc. I like that you tried out the Maya. Found those recently and they are probably now my max distance disc when it's not windy. Will soon be playing around with a Harrier I bought used, too.

My light weight fission wave (11, 5, -2.5, 2 @ 148g) that I got in my MVP Heist mystery box a year or so ago will turn over and just keep flying. Very fun turnover disc. I like that you tried out the Maya. Found those recently and they are probably now my max distance disc when it's not windy. Will soon be playing around with a Harrier I bought used, too.

The Maya is my go-to driver (but I only throw 200-240). If I put it on anny it holds the turn quite a while, but otherwise it's good and straight for me. I had a tumbleweed that I really liked for more turn than the Maya, but I lost it.

Fun fact, the tern used to be labeled -4 turn.

Enjoyed the comment about getting to be in your 50s with a ruined elbow. I hope you can get that D6 when you "grow up" ;^). But a Mamba in lighter weight could be useful then. I am learning disc golf at age 78, and my only joint without arthritis is my artificial hip. My MAIN distance driver is a 140s gram GStar Mamba. I'm rying to work up to heavier discs, and it's a struggle -- but a FUN struggle. Thanks for your excellent videos. SO happy to see your "average disc golfer" throws. Now all you need to do is show us what works for BEGINNERS or maybe even "senior" players. I hear we are a growing segment of the newbie market.

My mystery box DD1 is so flippy & I love it

The Mamba was one of the first discs I ever bought, and it is still my favorite understable disc for distance. I throw it farther and more accurately than any other understable distance driver. I haven’t yet found anything that works as well for me as the Mamba. Good choice, Greg!

I have two DGA sail discs, both in proline plastic, and my older one is waaaaay closer to its flight numbers than the one I bought last year, despite not having thrown either too much

Before I even start the video, it’s gotta be the Latt64 Diamond. Has to be. Unless someone has the PGA starter pack driver, it’s the Diamond.

Those shoes seem pretty cool. Do they come in waterproof, over the ankle for fishing my discs out of the pond 😂

I have a star mamba that was understable enough for me as a beginner (and is pretty light) that it gets a pretty nice turn for me compared to others

I know it's not a distance driver, but I found the genius from discmania in the active premium range actually flies understable, haven't got anything else from them that turns, let alone turns heavyish....the rockstar is overstable and I'm glad you covered the majesty....I thought I was going crazy.....I'm gonna go throw it a thousand times into my driveway...

Great series. It is astonishing how manufacturers get away with these "flight numbers dont matter" products. I buy most of my discs online and sort them out by flight numbers. Goes to show that what I actually get is totally arbitrary. If I order 32 regular trousers online I dont expect to get 26 slim.

Love your content!

Most understable for me is the Latitude 64 Bolt: it's rated 13,6,-2,3 but even with my mediocre arm speed I feel like it's closer to 12,6,-2,2 or even 11,6,-3,2. It doesn't require 13 speed to get a good flight and even rating it at 12 speed might be too high. It's definitely run and plastic dependent with regular Opto versions being the most reliable.

@davidfluth4058

Ай бұрын

Interesting. That’s what Jonathan on the Lattitude 64 channel likes to throw right? I might give that a shot.

@bensieber6960

Ай бұрын

@@davidfluth4058I’ve recently switched to the DD Captain for that slot. I find it to be similar to the Bolt but a lot more consistent, with less tendency to sometimes turn over and run away.

Releasing on 30° hyzer is why your understable discs are standing up instead of turning. The flight numbers are what the disc does when thrown flat at the right height. Just hyzer flipping it instead completely is pointless if you release every disc at different angles to compensate. You won't see said turn if you burn it off from a hyzer flip.

great reviews and comparisons! Definitely have been enjoying my S-Line DD and use to bag a Daedulus that ripped! Just subscribed!

The Nuke SS in ESP was an absolute ROLLER for me when I did my review on my channel. Compared it to a champ Daedalus and it wasn't even a comparison. One of the flippiest drivers I've ever thrown

The Basilisk was in my first ever starter pack and it was amazing at how good at rollers I was. Until my friend who's been playing for a few years looked at it and just laughed and told me why. Still one of my favorite disks until I literally cracked the rim (stupid trees). I now have a fairway driver from Yikun that does the exact same thing but is nigh in destructible.

Just happened to throw my friend's bassilisk for the first time yesterday. Threw it on the steepest highest spike hyzer I could manage and it still flipped up and turned.

My most understable disc is a beat 168g Pro Wraith. No matter how much hzyer I put on it, it will eventually turn. It's just a matter of when.

I got an Atlantis on release because I like Alfa discs. I've never had a disc further away from the flight numbers. My friend tried it and he's got 450ft in the tank. Dead straight laser beam. I must have got a weird one because nobody can get turn out of this thing.

I'm a bit older (63) and really like my g-star mamba. Just got a g-blend maya a couple of days ago but haven't been able to throw it yet.

well put together video good sir, you have got my sub!

Pathfinder being my straight mid is the perfect name for a disc. Whenever I NEED to hit a tight gap... Pathfinder... finds... the path...

I was hoping for the Basilisk, and was not disappointed!

To me a negative-2 2 disc either need to have turn and fade that lands in the same line you released it or it goes straight.

Love this video for slower arm speeds. I'd say the Innova Rollo is pretty well named.

The Vibram UnLace is the most understable disc I've ever thrown, even more understable than a Mamba. I can throw if flat and turn it into a roller. And I'm 66 years old.

I agree for vulcan, luckily I lost my only Vulcan in Rome at Villa Doria Pamphilii Park 😁a pair of years ago. Then I like very much, understable discs (not excessively ones, so no of your video understable discs could fit for me, I'd overturn them too much), but I'm fixed on trilogy discs, and I must use as distance (and 9 speed fairway) drivers, light versions of the well known trilogy discs, especially Latitude 64 (I'm, European and find easier to buy from them): Ballista Opto Air (14 5 -1 3, not very understable but beaten it goes towards -2 +2, it gives to me maximum medium distances of poor 70-85 m, but for me flies stable to straight), Bolt (13 6 -2 3, quite a lot understable for me, I have the record with it - 106 m, but I must pay very much attention to overturns), Jade (fairway, 9 6 -2 1, very reliable understable, now that is beaten), two escapes (9 5 -1 2, for me good straight discs), two Diamonds (fairway, 8 6 -3 1, really now very much understable for me, but if properly thrown gives great turnover throws, good forehand anhyzer throws, and interesting backhand rollers), also I have a Sapphire (10 6 -2 1,5), quite old but flying exactly that numbers, imho).

A star Tern is one of the best discs I've ever thrown. Surprised the Hades isn't on the list. It is very under stable. Especially the first runs and prototypes. No matter how much hyzer I put on it, it's dumping right 100% of the time.

Aww... I love the Sail. It certainly doesn't hold right forever but it does fly like a higher speed slightly more stable Diamond which is what I bought it hoping it would do.

Great video. Another cool testing idea. Different disc retrievers.

Beat up Valkyrie is my under stable driver but I do use a Rollo as well.

For understable distance driver i bag an esp avenger ss. Its flight numbers for me are accurate i can flip it up get some turn and itll come back slow or punch it out flat and let it get real right with a touch of fade back left. Ive been playing almost a year and a half at this point and average around 315ft max distance so if anyone is in a similar range I would recommend giving the avenger ss a try as well.

MVP orbital is the goat in this category. In my experience gyro works really well on under stable stuff .

Most aptly named disc? The Vanish. I've lost over a dozen of them.

The westside king is rated like -1 3 or -1 4, but is super understable, I'd put it more like -3 1, also the latitude 64 havoc has destroyer like numbers, and I've found that were both way more understable than my shrykes, and I'd give them similar -3 1 or -3 2

I have to say Innova's Vulcan is probably the disc that has the widest range of stability. I had a soft Pro Vulcan which would turn regardless of the hyzer angle you gave it. OTOH, I now have a Star Vulcan which for all intents and purposes is an overstable driver that can take the hardest forehand I can throw. In general, Innova's flight numbers don't really matter.

The Goliath Discs Ambush has that place in my bag. It flies similarly to the Basilisk but has a little more low-speed stability.

The Lone Star Bayonet numbers are true. Kaleb threw it on a hyzer. The disc flipped up and made a 2 fade. I'm getting me a Glow one after watching that. Glow plastic is more on the stable side.

Westside Queen. Says -3 but that thing bombs out on me soo bad! 😂 UNDERSTANDABLE 👀

So interesting! Great video, as always.

I threw an astronaut for a long time as my furthest distance driver...lost it, bought its exact twin down to the color and foil color. It was unthrowable flippy. I know I am preaching to the choir. I just hate that about the sport. Ever think of doing a show on manufacturer consistency?

@SixSidedDiscs

7 ай бұрын

I am definitely thinking about doing one video on one disc in one plastic and throwing as many as we can to see how different they are.

@jameswhite170

7 ай бұрын

@@SixSidedDiscs yes! Innova who has most of my money over 20 years has to be the most inconsistent. It's just when you find one that's great, it keeps you coming back. We bought an Ape one time that was flippier than a Vulcan

One thing I will say is that looking at the flight of the disc compared to the last two numbers on the disc doesn't tell the whole story. I'm only to the nuke right now, but with the nuke being a 13 speed, the only way you are going to get the -3 turn, is if you throw at a high enough speed. I like to think of it as your arm speed matching the numbers on the disc. If your arm speed is at the number on the disc, it "should" act as the disc was intended. If your arm speed is under the speed of the disc, then it will be less understable. If your arm speed is over the speed of the disc, it will typically be more understable on an understable disc, but to a lesser extent than being under speed. Comparing an 11 speed to a 13 speed, if they both have the same turn and fade, if you're only hitting the 11 arm speed, the 13 is going to look more overstable. A proper test would be to test discs of the same speed against each other. The turn and fade on a disc aren't exclusive to themselves. My son can turn over an understable putter, but won't be able to turnover and understable driver for awhile.

@dustinroberson1865

6 ай бұрын

To add to this, since this is a video towards novice and amateurs, I don't know if to many novice or amateur golfers will get much out of anything over a 10 speed and will get more of a true flight out of fairways and less.

Love my Roadrunner (9 speed), but I get a great s curve out of it consistently.

Lat 64 Opto Havoc is my go to understable distance driver

Throwing flippy drivers is a ton of fun! Possibly even flippier from Prodiscus, the Flipperi. Super fun, but barely useful!

Honestly I think it's best to think of flight numbers as mold-centric, and not disc-centric. I think the design of these molds are what influences the flight numbers, more than any run, or type of plastic. In-mold and out-of-mold cooling has an effect, environmental variables, storage, and a variety of other things after the disc is created. Then you get to individual differences in every player, and it just becomes mind-numbing to hash out the details. It just comes down to each person throwing each disc over time and have them fit whatever slot they fly like in real life. Caveat: as you point out, a lot of these discs don't remotely look like their flight numbers. I think some manufacturers or brands probably care less about them than others, and it looks like they didn't associate the numbers with how any of the discs turned out, but likely also didn't even care about the mold design as much as others. Viking has a ton of less stable discs. My friend had a full Viking bag (even the Viking backpack) and played them for months, and not a one was more stable than the numbers. Nearly every one was less stable than the numbers. Not bad discs, but inaccurate ratings. BTW: I also endorse the Mamba as a max distance driver for rec-level disc golfers. I've used mine for a year now for that reason.

Viking discs ragnarok in storm plastic is the most understable driver in my bag. Which is little suprising since its flight numbers are 11,5,-1,2

The DGA Sail is the best disc ever made IMO. You can play an entire course with just a SAIL because it's so versatile. The problem is that you gave your wife a max weight disc. I guarantee she will love it in a lower weight.

MVP Orbital is by far the most understable distance driver for me, and the name is pretty spot on

Nothing compares to my 125 gram Dino disc I just bought for the memes. It literally flips upside down sometimes. I'm pretty sure a strong thrower could literally make it do a full 360 turn and get some flight out of it haha.

The bag an old glow shryke. Such a bomber disc. 🙂

Surprised you didn't test a Discmania DD! That's a super flip dog but still a bomber for beginner to intermediate players.

I had a Discraft X Heat that I could throw on any amount of hyzer and it was still going right.

Love the video but would love to see more mvp discs get some love. Would love to see a fission wave, tenacity or mayhem get tested in the mix. I am sure they could even have their own video based on all the diff plastics and how they change the numbers based on it.

Love the doomsday blackout. Very stable. Very consistent!

I def. need one of those Divergent Basilisk .... damn ^^

FWIW, I throw a lot of reasonably understable discs, but every time I've tried to get the same model as an F2, it's been unusably overstable. I wouldn't draw any conclusions about the model from an F2. I wonder if they throw em in the F2 bin if they stick in the mold or something and come out out a different shape.

My Avenger SS is my go-to under stable driver.

Doomsday Discs Pestilence has been the only driver I can actually throw in my 7 months. But I haven’t really played in 2 months, because of work and north east weather. But I fucking love that thing. I love doomsday.

2:17... I have a heavily thrown champion vulcan. Stability wise its currently in the slot between my beat in halo calvin destroyer and new pro destroyer

@SixSidedDiscs

5 ай бұрын

lol amazing, some discs are definitely more inconsisitent in stability than others.

I got two factory second DX Teebird3's that look very similar to the thumbnail disc. They are very strange

Gotta try the Westside Destiny and Queen!

sad the axiom tenacity isnt on this list, its a supper flippy 13 speed that comes out of the box very understable but has consistent fade

Dayum! I need to get my hands on a Pestilliance

The idea of an understable disc video and a 13-speed are kind of paradoxical. You want understable, throw slower discs until you're the 1% that needs the speed of 13. Also, those Idio shoes are awful if you have feet that sweat. "Waterproof" also means water-retaining. We need to separate reality from promotion or gimmicks for views. I think you're a good guy, but some of this is beyond suspicious. All that said, the idea of finding out the relativity of flight numbers based on company and plastic is important work that all of us players appreciate. I hope you keep it up, even if I sound annoying.

@davidfluth4058

Ай бұрын

Higher speed discs fly faster and further. Almost every thrower can benefit from high speed discs. The flippier they are the more accessible that speed and distance becomes.

@seymourglass26

Ай бұрын

@@davidfluth4058 All of that's true, but comes with a pretty major sacrifice to control. Where I live, 20 potential feet isn't worth the many trees that come into play.