Pure marketing spin. Good fun watching Hambini roast them

their bs story has been found out. They've now deleted all of their comments.

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

Well done! Anyone who doesn't know about hair design, definitely doesn't know about engineering, FACTS! Lol

@Wildschwein_Jaeger

2 жыл бұрын

Hair it is.

@TaichoCyclist

2 жыл бұрын

Only truth can hold up against its own weight.

@Mesofs9

2 жыл бұрын

We can also ream thier brand name, absolute black. Did they measure the jetness of thier products or the ink they use? I highly doubt it 🙂

@wilsarno

2 жыл бұрын

So glad this has been made clear, I can now go bang my hairdresser with a clear mind.

As a retired engineer with extensive experience in designing equipment containing bearings I have a few of observations. Ceramic bearings are designed for high speed applications, this does not apply to bikes unless you can ride at 250kph. Chain drives are very efficient and a well set up clean drive train will transmit 96% to 98% of the power you generate at the cranks to the rear wheel (varies according to which rear sprocket is selected). Therefore, the potential saving from reduced friction in jockey wheels is tiny, because most losses in the drive will be caused by the chain itself, chain line, and sprocket size. Smaller sprockets are less efficient (SRAM take note). If you look at any video where the large jockey wheel is spun you will see it stops quickly. This is caused by friction, and friction saps power it does not reduce it. AB will not publish their data because it would not stand up to scrutiny.

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

👍

@ThePaulKat

2 жыл бұрын

Won’t publish their data because they don’t have any.

@TaichoCyclist

2 жыл бұрын

Data may be available but its credibility is anyone's guess.

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

@@TaichoCyclist well brands call them "white papers" but it is not a "paper" as defined in the engineering industry or a University Doctorate. They data is selective and controls are non existent. I did a review on one with the Ribble Ultra. Interesting and a good read, but significant data is missing.

@thedownunderverse

2 жыл бұрын

Even ceramic wheel bearings are dumb!

At 6:20, you're factually incorrect.... A bigger wheel is a *less* torturous path for the chain; the change in angle between adjacent links is smaller than round a smaller wheel. That doesn't mean I believe their claims, though!

I’m not going to badmouth this channel by name, cause I’m hoping to win a sweepstakes, but other cycling people think Hambini and Peak Torque just complain and don’t like any products. But… if you’re talking shit you’re talking shit and I appreciate those two and you Waynos for checking things

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for that, I know it sounds like we are all downers, but you need to step back and take a bigger picture. If you look at many other industries, there is much more stringent legal requirements needed to be meet to produce a product. So the BS is still there but limited, with the Aeronautical industry being best practice. The bicycle industry gets away with a lot, and QC which is a well established and understood science is applied poorly in this industry. It has been shown time and time again, the price does not represent the quality. I get it for a sub $1000 dollar bike, but remember they are asking $15k USD for these high end frames! This is where some of us have an issue. Also check out Luescher Teknik. He is a composite expert that worked for Boeing and now has a bicycle repair business. Very well respected in the industry.

@basedgodstrugglin

2 жыл бұрын

@@waynosfotos Raoul calls shit out when he sees it. Like you, Hambini, and PT. If we as cyclist had best practices and standards a world tour pro wouldn’t have his handlebar snap. I’m a hopeless optimist so I am hoping the cycling industry gets better. The realist side says… oof.

@geraintroberts6606

2 жыл бұрын

A little bit wrong saying that the Aeronautical industry being best practice.The FAA let BOEING self regulate and then submit their findings to the FAA .

We are right, as normal thinking rational beings, to question and demand to see the evidence. And look at the controls put in place to ensure said company isn't manipulating data for its own gains. And some of this is complicated for the average non - engineer. So we (thicko's) need you guys to ask the questions and demand the answers so we can make rational choices. For this, I appreciate all you guys do.

@rcg9573

2 жыл бұрын

Pigeon Poo Exceptional claims demand exceptional proof. Both CeramicSpeed and AB both have a long running history of making dubious “performance enhancing” claims regarding their products. Neither has ever provided a hint of objective data that concretely supports any of their product claim BS! When someone or a company persistently makes claims that they can not or will not support with testable and reviewable evidence/data they have pretty much shown you they are not an individual nor a company based on facts, real data, serious engineering, nor truth or logic. In essence you could say they are anti-scientific, and should properly be ignored along with their BS products. 😆😆

Food for thought and advice for the entire cycling industry, If your 100% confident with your design's and final cycling products, then what's the problem with getting them tested by Hambini and Peak Torque and if they approve it (in any small amounts) then your sale's will rapidly increase BUT more importantly it disciplines these manufactures in giving the public a GOOD product.

If it works the same as a "normal" cage andt looks cool,If your into blinging out your bike, it does look fun. That said, I feel SRAM and Shimano would offer a oversized "racers" option if it really was better...

Great vid! Always loved that this total knob of a company claims 3w saving on a Mech Cage when Major Brands have to resdesign a whole frame and match up wheels and bars to save between 1 and 7 (9-10 at the high end), all while putting MORE material into the wind, lmao

G’day Wayno from a petrol-free England. I too am sceptical about this component & the claims made about it. That said, I do hear that it is quieter & possibly smoother in operation compared to mechanical jockey-wheels. It’s synthetic housing may be responsible. I agree it won’t prove to be more efficient than mechanical yet it is the highest in price out there! This company must provide empirical data to prove their claims. My friend who has one sees it as more aesthetically pleasing. That’s a plus I guess but purely subjective of course. He says it feels smoother & therefore he thinks it could be faster but any difference in speed hard to quantify. We await the hard data from Absolute Crap, sorry Black! Great show. Keep up the good work. Much appreciated.

I’m happy to do an independent test for the jockey wheels Waynos .... first and foremost my test would involve seeing how much I can flog them of on eBay.

You make some good points about the lack of proper Engineering in the bike industry - no danger of you having to apologise. There is no published independent test evidence from AB to back up their claim of saving 3 watts. I reckon this is just marketing - they have simply made this to look cool and tron - like, and some folk will buy it just for that reason. It has no seals on the bearings and damage from contamination is specifically excluded from the warranty, tells me all I need to know.....

I’m with Hambini.

Some years ago I was scrutinizing hifi audio (audiphile) industry marketing claims on their often outrageously priced products. And it turned out that most of them are uncorroborated - pure snake oil marketing. There were even blind test that show people could not discern between decent audio equipment and highly overpriced audiophile equipment. And now I see that bicycle industry is trying to go the same way. Selling OSPW for 700$ is the same form me as selling simple power cable for your amplifier for thousands of $$$ they just put some exotic materials in it, but in the end it is doing the same job as power cable for let say 10$. Since then I’m very sceptic about all marketing claims.

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

Yep i remember the "monster cables" in hi fi. Complete lies, they make zero difference, accept lighten your wallet. 🤣

@thomaslutro5560

2 жыл бұрын

Yep. Starting to look similar. After a good 30 years as an audiophile, faith in my own ears (read brain) is somewhat reduced, faith in reviewers nigh on gone, faith in manufacturers the same. Still, my latest HiFi purchase was speaker wires. I got Belden 10AWG from bluejeanscable. No nonsense wires made for the pro market, cut to required length, and properly terminated, for a reasonable price. Line level is balanced XLR, except from turntable to phono preamp. All wires as long as they have to be, and no more. The things that really matter are turntables, tonearms, cartridges, speakers, room acoustics, and any room correction. Yet people buy sets of cables for their hifi costing more than I paid for my apartment. Mundus vult decipi.

@glennoc8585

2 жыл бұрын

I like nice speakers and I own a pair but the front end of hifi is well over priced.

@glennoc8585

2 жыл бұрын

@@thomaslutro5560 my cables, amp to speakers, are just cable I bought from Jaycar and I terminated with their best connects. I bought some Japanese made line level cables nothing over fancy.

@thomaslutro5560

2 жыл бұрын

@@glennoc8585 More or less my approach too. I just went to the pro audio market instead. It's not super cheap, but everything is very well made and priced accordingly. Pros aren't fools, nor are they sucked in by the con men in consumer audio. Belden, Canare, Klotz, van Damme, or similar, and you're set for life. All things luxury consumer audio is overpriced, but I still insist a well made turntable/ tonearm/ pickup is a worthwile investment, along with the speakers. Digital sources don't need to be expensive at all. In many ways it seems the cycling industry now is going the same way as consumer audio has been for decades.

Hambini will always win this because he’s not a **** marketing shyster. Absolute cack - yeah will never buy your products …

@olivierhiers4224

2 жыл бұрын

I think the marketing guys are actually not the one to blame, the company has or has not integrity. The AB engineer and production floor are as much in the bag than marketing. When a company does not behave, do not look further than leadership. All of us are use marketing tool, such as you tube and it work just fine. Aim the head not the limbs in this verbal joust

My old Shimano tourney derailleur had an oversized jockey wheel on it 20 year's ago

@rcg9573

2 жыл бұрын

Hahaha, how true indeed.

@denzelpardillo1181

2 жыл бұрын

And the new mtb rd's from Shimano also have oversized pulley wheels now

@willo7979

2 жыл бұрын

It’s there on Tourney. To reduce their spinning rpm, to prolong life, so to bring less complain from bike dealer to shimano.

@geraintroberts6606

2 жыл бұрын

The big jockey wheel was to help the chain on to the big sprocket because their was a bigger jump in teeth numbers .

@geraintroberts6606

2 жыл бұрын

The bigger jockey wheels on shimano 1x12 or 2x11 is to take up more chain slack instead of having a longer rear mech arm.

I think Shimano would have done something like that if it was benificial, they don't just throw out stuff on a whim, look how long it took them to go 12 speed, they wanted it perfect and the best it could possibly be. I think it looks cool but for the price you can get a decent set of wheels.

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

For sure, all the top three don't fit oversize pulley wheels. Maybe this says volumes.

@hallisoft1926

2 жыл бұрын

@@waynosfotos If an oversize jockey wheel actually transmitted any power there might be some logic in the larger size. But since it doesn't transmit power there isn't any real advantage. Just keep the drive train clean. If I wanted to get into the BS field of engineering I would point out that a larger jockey wheel is heavier and thus takes more power to accelerate and is detrimetal to sprinting!

@ClockworksOfGL

2 жыл бұрын

Shimano has major issues, like crank arms delaminating, “IceTech” rotors warping, internally geared hubs that rot away in wet weather. Yes, they make some great stuff, but buyers still need to do the research. Purchase the product, not the brand, and learn to be proactive on maintenance. A loose bolt here and some dirty grease there can cause all sorts of trouble.

@LitNews

2 жыл бұрын

Shimano DO have an oversize pulley wheel on their new GRX derailleur. Not as large as Absolute Black’s, but still.

New to cycling. And I've recently learned that cyclists can be highly sensitive to engineering claims for products where the claims seem to exceed normal expected levels of physics and science! I have also learned that I thoroughly enjoy the drama of what I observe as the clash between actual engineering and what marketing departments tend to come up with. :)

@jaggedsphere

2 жыл бұрын

@@THE-MAD-TECHIE like 'breaking them in'

@beltonhogue

Жыл бұрын

I've learned that when it comes to people having to spend money on an item that they desire, but yet can not afford, or are too cheap to spend their money on, even though they can afford it.....that they will find every and any reasoning to knock and de-value that item.

@rollinrat4850

Жыл бұрын

Oh yeah. Haha, The fools who buy all this overpriced garbage need to justify themselves in making an ill informed purchase. Haha, they bought the problem, they OWN it! There's little point in argument when it comes to know it all's, drunks and junkies. I wrench in this industry. I'm a retired machinist and inspector. Marketing BS never fools me. But mostly, I'm half retired on a budget! Haha! If people know more than I do, I'll gladly defer to their 'better judgement' and relieve them of their money's heavy burden. It's ALL simply job security for me! Then when their new overpriced garbage wears out, I'll sell them the next greatest thing. A triathlete brought in his $20k custom bike last week, before a race he's traveling to. On the spot, I fixed his disc brakes, his electronic shifting with the fancy Ceramicpeed pulleys and cage. Got it done in about 20 minutes. Charged him about $130 and he handed me a $50 tip! I didn't spend it on more bike junk. I bought my coworker some beer at the pub! Some of you guys apparently have money to BURN!

@beltonhogue

Жыл бұрын

@@rollinrat4850 ALL of the items for our bikes are expensive and overpriced! If that guy can afford a 20k bike, and can afford it, why knock em? No disrespect, but in my opinion, the most expensive part of owning a bike is what other people want to charge someone to work on them. You just said that you charged a guy over $100 for 20 minutes worth of work, that I have learned to do myself. While it is true that a service is not free, don't you feel at least a little bit guilty for charging a man that much money for a twist of your wrench? How can you say that people try to justify an item because of what they paid for it, when you just charged a ridiculous amount of money for something so simple, and so little time required to do so? I'm sure that you have no problem justifying that.

@rollinrat4850

Жыл бұрын

@@beltonhogue My customer is not a fool, haha, besides those silly ceramic pulleys. It was just an example of what highest end bikes cost to service by a professional. Not to mention, Replacement parts are anything but inexpensive. Like Ive said, job security.... But I'll always charge what the market will bear. This is how business works. Folks who are a pain in the ass, who are time vampires will always pay more. Time is money! Im certain as to what my time is worth and folks gladly pay it. People come to me from long distances for my expertise, high quality service and efficiency. High Efficiency means I can get work done faster and earn more money. We are paid hourly, also commission for service sold and parts. Lots of lesser paid flunkies and young bike mechanics struggle with high end, overly complex, overpriced bikes. The same job might require them over an hour, just to screw it all up, then waste my time to fix it! Consumers bought the bikes! They bought the 'problems' of their own free will. Now they need to deal with the consequences of their own decision! We might even charge over $200-$300 to replace a single cable and housing or a hydro brake install on an E-bike or an aero bike and still lose money. They're so stupidly designed as to require serious disassembly to accomplish a simple thing. Time is money! Don't like it? BOYCOTT. That's what I do. When I built and helped design aerospace hardware, easy and practical service was often a design consideration. I can get all these fancy bikes at cost, but I simply know better. I won't buy them. My old bikes still work just fine after decades because I built them to last. My friend once bought a Z28 Camaro that required unbolting the motor mounts and lifting the engine just to get at the spark plugs. See what I'm getting at? Time is money. When clearly affluent people demand I should discount my labor, I look directly in their eyes, I ask them what they do for a living and if they discount their labor. I don't have time nor patience for such nonsense. Generally they just stop talking. Idiots who persist are shown the door. You see, I've got plenty of excellent, happy customers. Im always busy. I don't 'need' lousy, difficult customers. I also tell them if they don't like the price, then DIY!!! Haha, That's what I have always done. I've never paid anyone to service my bikes. As a child my father and grandfather both taught me to learn to DIY since my very first flat. Otherwise I'm certain I would have walked because they told me Id be walking. DIY is one of the best lessons I've ever learned! You learned to DIY when you didn't want to pay for things you can do yourself. That's great! I encourage folks to learn and DIY. To look here at KZread. I learn new things here all the time. I teach a free maintenance class every week. I had 3 students last night. In a larger world of complex machinery, bicycles are pretty damned simple machines made difficult. They certainly don't make them like they used to. I schedule out work often 2-4 weeks ahead, in winter the workload hardly lets up, so there's a serious demand for my time! You understand about demand, what it does to prices? I'll do work for free for homeless people when I see they just need to get somewhere. I'll help out young kids and families. I'm a family man myself. I'll bend over backwards to keep people rolling when they're committed cyclists relying on bikes for transportation. I'm not gouging people. But those who make my job more difficult and time consuming will pay extra. It's a simple concept. Time is money. I also work in one of the highest income zip codes in the US. You would not believe what our lease costs if I told you. People here literally have money to burn. It's not an exaggeration! This gentleman didn't even balk at the price. He handed me $50 extra and told my boss he was very happy with our service. In that 20 minutes, I allowed him to watch and taught him a little bit. He was traveling to a triathlon event in South America. This was a rush priority job that I put before others. He's one of our regulars and knows how to motivate us! He also had a much bigger wad of bills in his pocket!

The marks Hambini pointed out on the body of this thing that were left over as evidence of injection molding are all the proof I need that this thing is not worth $700. Hambini related this to toys and I think that is a spot on analogy. Even with children's toys there is more study done to prove the toy is safe for children. I feel that this product could have been priced under $100 and the company would still make a nice profit. This whole thing is abysmal and it's appalling that this company has tried to take advantage of cyclists like this.

@10:13: the pulley wheels being on the "non drive" side is irrelevant, they still add a drag on the passage of the chain due to (a) the friction of their bearings, (b) friction from the engagement/disengagement of the chain links with their teeth, and (c) friction of the chain flexing and straightening as it wraps around the pulley wheels. These add to the losses in the BB bearings, chain wrap around the chainring and cassette cog, and tooth engagement/disengagement in chainrings and cogs. Plus the big factor, which is the power needed to turn the rear wheel and drive the bike forward. It's all one system driven by your legs (or an electric motor if you have one). The power required for the pulley wheels, however small, must come from somewhere. As you point out, multiple factors are likely to affect the amount of power lost in the pulley wheels, type and state of lubrication of the chain being obvious ones. I used a CS asymmetric OSPW setup for over 3 years, and a few months ago switched to a Shimano cage with hi-lo 12-tooth CS wheels in it. Mainly because the large size of the OSPW cage made bashing it out of alignment a concern. From the beginning I was skeptical of wattage savings claims with the OSPW, certainly not enough to feel. But it seemed likely that it would save something over the stock setup.

👍Respect to you for be willing to hold yourself accountable . Here's to that becoming more common on KZread

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

Appreciated, sometimes you are wrong, including me but things need to meet a standard of authenticity for that to be legitimate.

And the aero gain claims, put a chain and rider on the bike and that's out the window also. That set up behind my size 48s when pedaling would do nothing.

The cycling industry is ridiculous and they need to wake up. So much marketing wank bs. Not much real engineering. Go back and read what Jobst Brandt used to say. This industry was a joke and still is. It's getting worse. Now we have bikes costing not what a motorbike costs, oh no! Even more! And the "economy of scale" argument still doesn't account for the bs pricing. Thank God for hambini and peak t.

@rcg9573

2 жыл бұрын

CF frame and CF wheel production techniques are little changed over the past decade plus. There have been some marginal improvements, but essentially the methods of making these products are essentially unchanged as are the bulk of the base materials used in their fabrication. So when you hear bicycle frameset makers and wheel makers claim they are spending millions of $ on R&D they are lying. The double triangle bike frame and fork are pretty simple structures. There is no NASA level of engineering or fabrication going on with these products, yet they are being marketed, priced, and sold as if they are. You currently have mid spec CF bikes selling for as much or more than a non entry level Yamaha motocross bike that has exponentially more tech and quality fabrication in it. It’s pretty obvious that makes no sense. But such bubbles now seem to be the norm in many industries in recent decades.

@worldofameiso5491

2 жыл бұрын

There is an upside to all this over hyped new tech equipment, the people with soft brains and deep pockets who buy the new stuff, tend to sell their old, but still perfectly serviceable stuff on eBay for relatively little money. I have bought some excellent dura ace stuff recently including a full 7800 group set for less that £260.

AB absolutely in the wrong here. Got blocked by them for questioning the eggshell comment on instagram. What a joke of a marketing department.

All I know is I couldnt adjust out my chains intermittent ratcheting from the SRAM Red derailleur I bought on Ebay. Stock pulley only has 1 adjustment screw, CeramicSpeed has 3 angles of adjustment. Now my derailleur is quiet and shifts like a dream.

I bet Hambini is more right than wrong

I wish companies do such research

Hambini would simply walk into Modor and say, "this is crap".

I can agree with AbBlk that an oversized cog will allow smoother/easier movement of the chain around it due to decreasing radius, even if there are more contacts there is less of a "bend", but at what weight cost, i.e. bigger pulley/bearing and longer chain needed? Also iI loved how Hambi destroyed their better aero/less drag claims. :-)

If ceramic oversized wheels made a difference worth doing, don’t you think at least 1 of the big 3 companies would have done it already? Or have started doing it recently, since they are becoming so popular? I must say, I bought a set for myself and my wife, from Kogel. I’m not sure if I notice a difference or if it’s in my mind, but I did notice, no matter how much I adjust things, the shifting isn’t as good as the stock jockeys

Even IF the Absolute Black cage worked as promised, IT WOULD STILL BE STUPID... NO ONE SHOULD SPEND $700 ON A BIKE PART THAT MUGHT SAVE A FEW WATTS. Bikes are becoming the male version of a Louis Vuitton purse, people buy parts for their social status.

@jyewhin

2 жыл бұрын

This ... Exactly this. How many bikers I have seen showing off their fancy carbon this, carbon that and getting passed by someone on an simple bike, equipped with a shimano 105, alloy wheels etc. I can get behind having a nice paint job but that's about it.

You are correct of course. Significantly you point out that the jockey wheels are on the unloaded side of the cassette and also that a chain will easily drop through a set of jockey wheels under its own weight. I'm going to say 1N of force is required to pull a chain through a set of jockey wheels. I'm being very generous (I suspect its less). Energy in joules is force x distance. Power in watts is energy per second. The chain will have to move 3m each second if losses are to be 3W. 3m at the circumference of small cog (say 150mm diameter) is 20 revolutions of the wheel. Or 40 m/s. That's something like 90mph. There is no way the jockey wheels consume 3W on any decent bike.

On their website it is currently rated with 4.76 stars of 5 (349 votes). You say they are fake?

@rcg9573

2 жыл бұрын

LOL

31k people have seen Hambini's video. Is that good for AB? Is it bad?

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

Well, have to ask AB?

@mrnobody9821

2 жыл бұрын

@@waynosfotos I try but my comments get deleted, as they were yesterday on Hambini's video. They don't seem to like it when you try and convert their tests into the realm of reality or ask for concrete evidence that their testing methods and claims have value as part of a complete system (rideable bycicle).

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

@@mrnobody9821 i was told they went back and deleted a number of their comments around the internet, so if your comment was a child comment of theirs it would of been deleted too

@mrnobody9821

2 жыл бұрын

@@waynosfotos Yeah it was, but it's a general trend across their social media platforms, they "curate" the comments section very carefully and remove comments which as I mentioned question the place of their testing in reality. Its really quite sinister, as you said, product of an unregulated industry.

These pulleys cost about the same as a new Dura Ace DI2 derailleur. Even cheaper Shimano derailleurs use a ceramic bushing in one of the pulleys. Need I say more??

In the Late 90‘s I worked as a mechanic in a bike shop and anodized pulley wheels in crazy colours where the hot shit. We swapped plenty of well working Shimano pulley wheels just for style purposes.🤷‍♂️ I thought we now well got over this period and AB comes up with this marketing nonsense. Same as their oval chainrings…Biopace anyone. 😂

@sportydavek1590

2 жыл бұрын

The main difference back then was the “fancy” anodised ones were sold on the basis they looked trick and cost about £40 not $700…

AB and Hambini have brought so much attention to OSPW, many specialists in engineering and cycling have done research to show they, OSPWs, have no discernable affect on the rider's speed, and are therefore a novelty and nothing more. I'll save my $300-$500 and put it elsewhere.

Marketing's role is to maximize return on stockholders money. If getting a pro team sponsored to use them and this sells more widgets, then people with way too much money and egos will buy it. The difference is likely less than the watts saved by shaving eyebrows. Or adding an extra layer of bar tape slowing you down.

Well said... And you will never have to do an apology or promotion vid for them.... You know as well as the rest of us this product is fake..... I used to use Control tech jockey wheels in my XTR rear mech only because of a comparison test between shimano and 5 other aftermarket manufacturers

You don't know what you're talking about: your point 2 is in direct contrast to shimano's in-depth studies, which showed larger sprockets create less resistance as the individual chain links do not have to bend as tightly, thereby reducing the overall friction by a larger amount. This is why they did not reduce the smallest sprocket to 10 teeth (like sram et al) when they moved to 12 speed on their 9200 groupset.

As a pharmacologist, the analogy of drug testing hit me on this. Nice video

Don't hold your breath...😂

I made a comment on their Facebook page asking why they don't publish data and their approach to defend the product is cenzorship. They removed my comment and blocked me from their page. This kind of people should not exist in countries which value democracy and freedom of speach. I really hope this story will become viral.

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, doing this to lots of people. 😭

Well, we all know how easy it is to fudge any statistical analysis. Without disclosure of the methodology and the data, AB (or any other company making any product performance claim for that matter) cannot be taken at face value. A credible and transparent analysis must be presented as back-up if the company's product claims are to be taken seriously.

Ceramic Speed backed way down on the efficiency of their oversized jockey wheel and it shows. AbsoluteBLACK hasn't. It looks like junk. They touted their subcompact chain rings. Basic math crushed them. Their 'oil's is next. Let's see if it is any better than a very popular gun lubricant.

if it were 1/4 the price, I'd consider buying one just for it's appearance; ain't no one buying OSPWs for performance gain 😅

@Sills71

2 жыл бұрын

Spending $175 for this junk would make you no less of a stupid wanker.

@ayowser01

2 жыл бұрын

@@Sills71 good-on-you for having such a perception of others and their purchasing preferences 👍

@ollieb9875

2 жыл бұрын

You can get super cheap normal sized aluminium jockey wheels that are colourful and pretty cool! Typically they come with crappy bearings though but it's not a problem to pop them out and stick proper sealed ones in. They're inexpensive. 🥳👍

@ayowser01

2 жыл бұрын

@@ollieb9875 I personally went with a set from Nova. I believe it was close to $200 for Shimano 105 r7k. It has ceramic bearings. They shipped me their 1st generation model, which had shifting issues, but they resolved the problem by sending out the updated model. So far, so good; however, it would have been appreciated if they sent a complete unit and not just a new cage. I had to swap pulley wheels and bearings over.

We shall see in the next month how they react. I doubt anything will happen. But get your popcorn ready my humans. It’s gonna get good

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

🍿

Not sure if these products actually work or not. Probably the best people 2 ask would be a top pro rider that uses them. Pretty sure that would worth a try. Froomie or Ritchie Porte. What l can say about the "Absolute Black" version apart from its awesome looks is that its super quite & the gear changes r supee slick. And this was from a chap in the USA who like u Wayne has a channel & reviews cycling products. Based on his review alone l would ❤ it if Absolute Black sent me a freeby. It was that good. As far as Watts saving thats a BIG Q.

Practical studies can stand on their own, as an observational study.

I’d like to see the reliability data, single sided carbon plastic that has a high side load from changing gear can’t see it’s fatigue life being long. But 700$ for a bearing that so far hasn’t been seen to spin. For me The aero data looks poor as the bearing prevents 2 surfaces to the wind in any angle of yaw. The bearing has no spin test shown Plastic compression and tension fatigue life. The bearing defies the laws of physics But let’s not be mean to absolute black there’s a lot of manufacturers with a lot of bs products, not to mention a lot of industry experts, channels that support all the emperor’s new bikes.

@guitrollogist3206

2 жыл бұрын

Who else is selling a $700 paperweight?

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

Ceramic speed

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

Going to do a vid about aero derailleur gains, have heard this from a few manufacturers, my BS meter goes to volume eleven! 🚨 When i hear this stuff!

@tobycolin6271

2 жыл бұрын

@@waynosfotos the bigger the surface area the bigger the aero drag is somewhere in my 1950s raf aero books. You can change the shape but size matters. It’s the same with bearings and shaft sizes. Ceramic speed, absolute black and all the wheel manufacturers have altered the laws of physics. We now ride heavy fat wheeled comfortable bikes with increased frontal area. More weight more drag = faster.

@baldyslapnut.

2 жыл бұрын

@@waynosfotos "none more black"

Well its not only Absolute Black, it also the original creators Ceramic Speed.

Consumers are easily suckered. I recall a guy who had purchased a titanium bottom bracket for his mountainbike. He had claimed it knocked a pound off the weight of his bike. No amount of logic could dissuade him from the obvious, that he had been suckered.

@rcg9573

2 жыл бұрын

Fools always find a way to justify and rationalize their moronic purchases.

What with massive cassettes and oversized jockeys you wont be able to see daylight through a race bikes rear wheel soon! Much like a Honda Goldwing I suppose.

It's about selling ovalised chainrings. Whether it improves your speed by a billionth of a % or not is irrelevant.

All agreed, except.....surely a tighter turn on a small cog is a marginally more ‘tortuous’ pathway for your chain than a gentle turn on a larger cog? The chain links have to flex more, into more acute angles, creating tiny amount more friction. Analogy...running round sweeping bend rather than hairpin bend.

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

It would be if it was one cog, but there is two cogs. If you draw a line from one centre point to the other of the two cogs, this would be the straightest line, as the cogs get bigger the chain needs to move further away from those centre point as the chain needs to travel from one side of a cog to the other side of the second cog. Therefore the bigger the two cogs the more off centre it will have to travel. If it was loaded the bigger cogs may be beneficial, but at this point the chain is unloaded so the straightest path is less resistance. An example would be two chicanes, two shallow chicanes is easier to navigate than deeper chicanes with bigger diameters.

@hisdadjames4876

2 жыл бұрын

@@waynosfotos Thanks. Makes sense. Now, where can I find a cheap undersized pulley set up? 😂

First up, I think all of this has got totally out of hand when we're needing to ask companies for peer reviewed papers to substantiate their claims. These are bike parts we're talking about! Anyway, you're incorrect about the more tortuous path being less efficient in this case. The friction in the system is dictated by how far each individual link articulates as it moves onto the pulley wheel not by how far it has to travel on the pulley. Once it has articulated there is no more friction from that link until it moves off the pulley and straightens out again. A larger wheel requires less articulation than a smaller one which is why larger chainrings and cassettes are more efficient (looking at you SRAM).

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

NOPE, this only applies under load, as there is no load, every extra interface creates drag. Also with a bigger wheel the chain needs to go further off centre so it creates more drag when being pulled through, i.e. smaller pulley rings straighter path, bigger pulley wheels more torturous path.

@themagicspanner

2 жыл бұрын

@@waynosfotos But it's not under no load, is it. It is under a small load from the tension applied by the cage. Can you explain why going further off centre creates more drag?

If Friction Facts hadn't been bought out they could potentially have done some of the testing and exposed the hype. It's a sad day for the industry when an independent tester gets bought out and at least some of their testing gets buried.

Prior to running across Hambini’s videos on this product, my only real exposure to the Absolute Black brand was through social media direct marketing, specifically the World Wide Cyclery advert for their oval chainrings which includes a glowing testimonial from Jeff himself. I’ve never ridden an oval ring, and I don’t think AB invented them, but up until now, I was intrigued and had considered buying one. No more. Their name is mud with me. And I’m sorry to say that I’ve lost a lot of respect for World Wide Cyclery too.

Imagine believing in Over sized pulleys but you have a 10 tooth cog on your cassette

I don’t even own a road bike but Hambini is funny af and has none to give. Why buy overpriced trash just because some rando said it was dope.

I do like the look of the AB derailleur to been honest, and of cause the price tag means it must be good! Right! If large bearings were efficient all wheels would be done this way. Ive seen designs like this before but they never go passed the prototype stage. Also I am not convinced that massive jockey wheels are more efficient either, yes the chain bends to a smaller angel as it travels thro the S shape. But ceramic speed over size jockey wheels cost a fortune too so they must be good! Right! One thing ive learned is that you get what you pay for, except when it comes to cycling. But again the really cheap components arent as well made. The biggest aero advantage a cyclist could do is lose a few kg (at least 20kg for me)

"Its not about the bike: My journey back life." A book from Lance A and Sally Jenkins, and title is quite fitting for cycling, cycling brands like to put forward that their brand are making victory possible; however none of the pros decide what they ride (maybe besides Sagan, currently). All things considered, engineering is fantastic, but some times the idea of great benefit is way off, even Oliver Naessen used a steel frame bike on the final stage of Tour de france. We all get it, its about making money, however there are no excuses to fraudulent behaviour; just be real some times we like to pay for cool new stuff or whats in pro peloton. Julian would have won on any of the bikes in pro peloton.

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

Yep!

There is no controversy some came up with shady shit and got roasted by real engineers.

If a massive concern, like Shimano, is using small/standard jockey wheels, then………….

So Shimano, with their massive background in design and manufacture of bike gear over 40 plus years, just forgot to put oversized jockey wheels with ceramic bearings on the latest Dura Ace set??. I’m not saying that it’s impossible to innovate in this field; it just seems fairly unlikely

@LitNews

2 жыл бұрын

See Shimano’s new GRX derailleur…

@Hugh23132

2 жыл бұрын

@@LitNews Yes but the jockey wheel isn’t oversized and has a small radius bearing

@LitNews

2 жыл бұрын

@@Hugh23132 On the top-end GRX 815 the derailleur jockey wheel is oversized. Not as large as the AB, but still.

@Hugh23132

2 жыл бұрын

Certainly nothing like the AB

@LitNews

2 жыл бұрын

@@Hugh23132 Shimano have an oversize jockey wheel on their top-end GRX derailleur. This runs counter to your original claim.

😂 the gate wouldn’t stop unless AB close down their business . People including me will keep spread the word . In fact : every one of my comments delete from their Ingram page . I’ll make sure they pay for it 😂

At the end of the day if u believe it works and u enjoy riding thats all it matters.

@RadioSnivins

2 жыл бұрын

Placebo gains are real gains - especially when they reduce the mass of your wallet.

Big fan of Hambini.... everyone just had to get an arsing grip.....as I keep saying....into void obviously!....if it's round it rolls....shut tfup and pedal!.....a minute here...carbon there...in reality...who gives a fex?

Bring on another roast Hambini! Absolute Bullshit won't share the data....

The cycling industry is plagued with claims of marketing wanks and a real lack of actual data. Responding to the video, I think we can throw out the medical industry, as it is far removed from anything we are doing. I like Hambini, but he seems to hate everything other than bearing manufacturers. IIRC, there is a fellow out there who used to work at a company that tested drivetrain efficiency and went out on his own to build his own test apparatus to test chain lubricants and other things like that. He is probably on the right track, and would be the one to go to on this subject. Sorry, I forget his name. It seems to me that using a large diameter pulley causes the chain to bend to a lesser angle than you would get with a smaller pulley, so that is a plus. Unfortunately, the larger diameter pulley in this case has bearings at a greater diameter, and that should cause more viscous drag since the balls are being pushed through thick grease at a greater diameter. My guess is that the viscous drag of the pulleys costs more watts than is saved by flexing the chain through a smaller deflection, but this is something that absolutely must be measured; thought experiments are not enough! Then there is the point Hambini made about the cage flexing. This is a flaw, not a benefit in my opinion. Again, something that should be tested; it may not be a big deal. We should find out. But to me, I'm seeing red flags on this one. And a final thought, Shimano have a lot of really smart engineers. Do you really think they didn't have someone that thought of trying bigger pulleys? If it were worth 5 Watts, that engineer would have gotten a massive promotion and we would have seen the entire TdF peloton riding those parts, albeit disguised. Don't get me wrong, I want to see innovation in the cycling space, but this feels like a marketing scam to me.

I have asked Absolute Blacks engineers to have live debate with Hambini on KZread to prove him wrong, BOOM they have blocked me on all social media 😂😂

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

Hmmmm 🤔

@kevingriffiths4624

2 жыл бұрын

@@waynosfotosthis is the issue with AB they are blocking and deleting all comments that questions the claims they make. It seriously looks like they have something to hide rather than something to prove 🤔

I can SAVE $700 and gain 4 watts by not eating so much fucking food. I could probably supply the math proof as well.

There are two problems with Hambini, like many people he doesn't want to believe any advertising flack. I can certainly understand this because I am ALWAYS skeptical of claims. Hambini also takes the position that EVERYTHING is crap unless it proves beyond a doubt that it isn't. Well, I may not be THAT skeptical but there's no question that the claims of absolute black are shite on the anus of humanity. Bearing friction goes up non-linearly with the increase in diameter of the bearing. This is entirely beyond the problem of that chain not being protected from being derailed if the idler arm has insufficient spring tension. I can't imagine it remaining on that oversize idler in Paris-Roubaix but since pro riders are pedaling all the time perhaps that isn't a problem. You won't be able to successfully argue with Absolute Black because they have no intentions of exhaustively testing the unit from theory to hardware and there are enough suckers out there that they have already more than compensated Absolute Black for their tooling on this arm. After all it is only ONE steel mold and an automatic machining of a weird ID Idler sprocket. It isn't as if making the bearing is magic and not everyday automatic machining. Now after shooting them in the butt, that doesn't mean that their product isn't worthwhile at a FAR lower price point. It does have a superior chain line for a TT bike. Whether or not that would be overcome by the increased friction of the bearing is doubtful. None of these things would help or even be of any importance for the average rider. But if you're a pro, the smallest improvement could make the difference as we've seen this year in people beaten RIGHT on the line. But I'm not a pro. I haven't raced in half a century and I don't play one on youtube. So my take on a $700 derailleur arm is to fall down on the floor laughing.

I have a Kogel OSPW, and their ceramic BB. I noticed instant smoothness and comfort when both were put on, and broke all of my PRs on my Strava (Please dont say something foolish like "that was a placebo"). These items don't give you "power", but rather, a lighter, smoother, more comfortable pedal stroke FEEL with less pressure on the required muscles. They are NOT some kind of item that produces energy and power for you on a bike, which seems to be what most people believe that they are supposed to do! But isn't it true that the more comfort that we have on a bike, the better we ride because of that comfort? So if these items give more comfort than the stock items, than they are in fact doing what they are supposed to be doing, right? If you have not experienced using these items for a day or so, than you are voicing your opinion on a guess, and not merit. If AB made a claim that their pulleys give more power to a rider, then they easily could have cleaned that up by explaining what I just did, because comfort and less friction allows you to generate more power IF YOU WORK FOR IT. But as far as any other claims such as scientific studies by certain ones, etc., you'd better be able to back that up, you're on your own with that one!

@waynosfotos

Жыл бұрын

Your logic on the issue is incorrect: I don't have to prove anything, I am not selling any product. There is laws regarding miss-representing products. I asked them to produce data about their equipment that they claim is specially made, as they claim it can measure very low variations. I received a legal letter instead.

@beltonhogue

Жыл бұрын

@@waynosfotos no,no,no....read my comment again, please. I think You are mis- understanding what I am saying! Also, the comment is intended for all cyclists, it wasn't talking to you directly! Also, Over at your black inc. 5 spoke wheel video, can you please give me your thoughts on a couple of questions I have over there please? Thank you...

@beltonhogue

Жыл бұрын

@@waynosfotos I was saying " you're on your own with that one"...meaning AB is on their own...not you, sorry about the confusion....

I can buy an almost descent bike or some nice descent carbon wheelset for the price of half of a derailleur. Does NOT MAKE ANY SENSE 🤔

People who have bought their products should start asking for their money back.

Companies (not just those in the bicycle industry) will often publish a claim that is based on their proprietary method of design, review and evaluation. Using those methods, which can be a top secret and un-published, the favorable outcomes they state via advertising are not exactly a lie. But, they are not the whole truth either. Just because a design is different and more complex, that does not make it better. This kind of BS magically flows uphill.

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely!

another big scam in the industry.funny thing is some of mu friends have these kind of pulleys.

A sealed rear gear hub is probably way more aerodynamic if you want aerodynamic claim and might cost a hell of a lot less. Sturmey archer s3x. No really aerodynamic advantage for that absolute black anyway. But that's my poor opinion and wouldn't pay $700 for that anyway. Waste of money. Get fit is a way hell of a lot cheaper! The gain of performance for that is useless. Minuscule. Unless you're a true professional to get some noticeable performance. Even that is not worth it. Just get fit and diet by eating properly.

AB might have got away with it if they were charging $70 instead of $700 (still a rip off for what is an unecessary product. ). That way , they could have slipped under the radar of reviewers like Hambini and others, and they would have been a bit more like much of the cycling industry. Overpricing is a big problem, its just a matter of how much they can extract from the consumer via BS marketing.AB took it too far.

Waynos, I have to ask....why is this the "hill to die on" in terms of proving data? Like seriously. Bike frame manufacturers and bike parts manufacturers are literally putting out new bikes every year with lofty claims of efficiency and aero gains. I've never seen anyone tell the companies they have to "prove themselves" first in a peer-review study. It's all marketing. There probably is some gain with the right setup and the right yaw angle...blah, blah, blah. But no one "makes them prove their white paper study". Like who cares? Marketing is marketing. Some third party companies do their own wind tunnel testing...great, so someone can take it upon themselves to test this if they like. As for who is the expert...Peak Torque sounds smart, but I have yet to find out what his actual level of education and experience is....so I have no idea if what he is saying is BS or not. He comes across as a grad student who may think he knows more than he does. But I could be wrong.

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

Because it is miss representing their product. The bicycle industry just claims outrageous things and when people call them out. Oh you are a hater and who are you. But no one asks these companies to substiate their claims. If it was a $500 bike who cares, but they are $20k and can't even make a round hole that meets well established industry standards.

Absolute black. The masters of marketing bulshit lol. There stuff does look good though, image over function and brand snobbery is making these company's millions!. If people are willing to pay can we really blame them!.

I saw the Absolute Black’s replies to Hambini… what an ass. Just for that I’ll not support that company.

Are you seriously wearing that for a video…. On the internet!….

No offence but you've got less than 3k subscribers. A drop in the ocean. AB wouldn't care what you say or do for them.

@waynosfotos

2 жыл бұрын

Probably true, but remember every KZread started at zero, even HAMBINI.

@DanTuber

2 жыл бұрын

@@waynosfotos Hambini and PT offer a lot more than just opinions. That's why their subs rise.

@rcg9573

2 жыл бұрын

It doesn’t seem as if Wayne cares whether or not AB is concerned with his channel or is interested in doing anything for them. Just saying. 😆

@DanTuber

2 жыл бұрын

@@rcg9573 If he doesn't care then why make the offer.