The original Dark Sun Box Set (and Brom's art) drew me to 2e. My friends and I played 2e Dark Sun from 1994-2000. Then they went on to play 3e DS* for another 5 years without me! We tried 4e Dark Sun back in 2009 but didn't like it. So now, we plan to revisit 2e Dark Sun next year. It's still my favorite to this day. *As an aside, Dark Sun was officially - albeit, unceremoniously if not covertly - supported in 3e. Dungeon #110 / Polyhedron #169 contained the 3e Dark Sun DMG and Dark Sun MM1 Dungeon #111 / Polyhedron #170 contained the Dark Sun MM 2 Dragon #319 contained the 3e Dark Sun PHB

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

Those were the periodicals I mention in the video - thanks for listing them! 🙂

I love this setting, and it’s a shame that it’s not likely to get any more official love. It’s not as though slavery was depicted as GOOD, just commonplace. Nobody complains that murder is a way of life in other settings.

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I'm not 100% sure of what elements are "problematic" as noted by WotC. Very good point about murder, too!

@TwilightxKnight13

11 ай бұрын

Its mostly just woke outrage over perceived offenses as if the material was written with the intention to offend "you" personally. It is ridiculous. Dark Sun is one of the best settings in all of TTOPRPGs

@WillyMuffinUK

11 ай бұрын

@@TwilightxKnight13 Well... I've come to perceive the word "woke" as a trigger for the US culture wars that seem to actually be dying out, thank grief - it's tedious. Personally, I don't see any outrage from anyone - I think it's WotC being overly cautious given that they are caught up in a corner of the culture wars. Anyway, daft culture warring and so on aside - yes, wholeheartedly agree that it's one of the best settings out there.

@DemonPrinceofHell

10 ай бұрын

@@TwilightxKnight13 its definitely the wokies that would get pissed off over dark sun. Ironically, I didn't see any connection of it being seen as problematic up until the wokies pointed it out!!

@thedruski85

9 ай бұрын

I don't think it's an issue of 'wokeness' which is just a trigger word that means only what the person using it thinks it means, not some actually defined concept. I believe WotC sees it as problematic to their bottom line, which is the only thing Hasbro seems to care about. Athas is not for the feint of heart. Much of the modern ttrpg fan base are softer and kinder of heart than old fogies like me that played their very first D&D adventure in this harsh world. Honestly, I'm glad WotC isn't trying to bring it back. They already did my second favorite setting dirty with Spelljammer. That boxed set was the worst excuse for a product they've ever put out and I'm just thankful Dark Sun won't be getting the same lazy treatment.

I love the 2e settings. They were so creative and there’s something for everyone and they had so many lore books published. Golden era IMO. And I LOVE psionics.

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

Personally, I think there were too many - but most of them were good fun. As for psionics... when done right and they're on-theme (as with Dark Sun), they're great. Otherwise... sort of superfluous and second fiddle to magic. Just my tuppence!

@Dndditches

Жыл бұрын

@@WillyMuffinUK I think the variety of campaigns is good so everyone can find something they like, but sometimes at a cost of another, eg Planescape should not have replaced Spelljammer. I think the vanilla fantasy settings Greyhawk, Dragon Lance and Forgotten Realms were much of a muchness. Personally not a fan of 2e psionic rules, it’s so convoluted but 3.5 was good. While I don’t disagree that they play second fiddle to mages, but same can be said about several other classes that “just hits things hard” but the class identity is dressed up by giving them some lore to sell the fantasy but still ends up being “I hit things” vs “I hit things and I’m angry”. Psionics are same but gets a unique mechanic. I’ve played with dms that don’t want to learn an entirely new mechanic for 1 player though and I guess that’s fair, which makes the psionics even more special. It’s the forbidden fruit. The more you tell me I can’t have it, the more I want it.

I loved Dark Sun. It's my go-to guide for how to establish a setting. The flavor is so rich, and you can tell when something doesn't fit...like Mind Lords of the Last Sea.

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

It is definitely one of those that feels like it's been around forever right from that first box release - totally agree, it's one of the best TSR ever did.

@Arvaniz

Жыл бұрын

Actually, Mind Lords of the Last Sea totally fits in the setting and its themes. It contrasts the classical physical slavery in most parts of the Tyr Region with the mental slavery of the inhabitants of the Last Sea (and the false imperative of "happiness"). It shows that a vivid and lush ecosystem (as that of the Last Sea) is not enough to warrant freedom and utopia. Mind Lords of the Last Sea has a "Logan's Run" or "The Time Machine" (what with the morlocks and eloi), and other sci-fi false utopias, feel to it. And that's what makes it feel right at home within Dark Sun... as it is a setting modeled much more on sci-fi themes (Dune, Mad Max, etc.) than fantasy ones. You can make a whole campaign with the PCs learning about a mythic paradise on the shores of a so called Last Sea, with the massive journey from the Tablelands... with the plot twist that it's only a different kind of hell. Perhaps worse than the barren wastes and the tyrants of the city-states they knew.

Two things I feel obligated to point out. Firstly, the dray (as dragonborn were reflavored) actually WERE a part of the 2nd edition iteration of Dark Sun, debuting in the adventure module "City by the Silt Sea", which goes extensively into their history, lore and culture, and even offers rules to play them - the primary difference between the 2e and 4e iterations is whether they were made after or before Dregoth became the Athasian Dracolich. Secondly, the concept of Athas being locked away from the rest of the multiverse was itself something of a retcon; it was first mentioned in "Defilers & Preservers: The Wizards of Athas", and had never been referenced in any books prior to or subsequent.

@WillyMuffinUK

10 ай бұрын

Your points are well-taken. However, dragonborn (as we know them today) owe more conceptual links to the draconians of Krynn than Dregoth's transformative creations. The recon in 4E moves the Athasian dragonborn closer to the core race, rather than something different and unique to Athas. Prior to that, the similarities to 2nd Ed. Dray and 4E dragonborn are more or less in name only. With respect to Athas being locked away - you can look to more than Defilers and Preservers for reference, although that source describes the impenetrable nature of Athas's sphere (one source is still a source). The Spelljammer sources hint at the sphere being uncharted (and, indeed, it is consistently uncharted in official sources, and at best tucked away on its own in unofficial ones. There has been no reason to doubt that Athas is "closed", other than the planar shenanigans of Black Spine etc., and connections to the Inner Planes. From the Prime, it is uncharted and impenetrable.

Great Video. Love the art of Brom so much!

@WillyMuffinUK

5 ай бұрын

Thank-you, and yes - he has a very evocative style. He was a good choice for Dark Sun.

In my mind 2e Athas is more like a survival setting. A harsh world in which, already vulnerable D&D characters, are made even more vulnerable. Heck you had to roll higher stats because you were expected to need them! A 24 strength half giant at level 3 wasn't out of the realm of possibility. But you could just as easily fall prey to a Rampager, or an Id Fiend early on in your career and perish. In a different vein the 4e version of Athas read more like a high adventure Swords and Sorcery setting. Something more out of Conan, in which the heroes wrestle with (and ultimately defeat) larger than life foes, before retiring to the grimiest pub in town (to avoid the servants of the sorcerer king) to drink away their wealth as soon as they had acquired it! Both are amazing ways to play, and I've run both. But even more 4e Darksun game was very lethal. We lost 6 characters in the first session, granted it was over about 14 hours at a library lock-in.

@WillyMuffinUK

9 ай бұрын

I agree, on both counts. It's borne out by the rules given to water needs etc. in the Dark Sun setting rules. 6 4E characters lost?! What were you doing!

@nicklarocco4178

9 ай бұрын

@WillyMuffinUK not pulling any punches lol. My favorite death was when one of the characters got grabbed by a giant trapdoor spider, and instead of helping everyone else just said "nope," and walked away.

@WillyMuffinUK

8 ай бұрын

@@nicklarocco4178 Hah! Every man, woman, cannibal halfling, and escaped gladiatorial half-giant an mul for themselves!

I have been playing Darksun since it came out and I actually learned a few things I didn't know from this video. Well done and much appreciated.

@WillyMuffinUK

6 ай бұрын

Thank-you - glad you found it useful!

Love Dark Sun, and owned every version of it… I have dumped my 4E books many years ago, but still have the 2 boxes and have converted them to Savage Worlds… great setting, glad WoTC is ignoring it honestly!

@WillyMuffinUK

20 күн бұрын

In the light of Spelljammer and Planescape, I can't disagree with your WotC point.

Dark Sun has always had a special place in D&D for me. Mr. Brom is a 3rd or 4th cousin and when I was a kid he would send me leftover D&D merchandise from the TSR art studio. Lots of Dark Sun stuff and a few calenders of paintings signed by him and the other artists. Of course as a kid it was Incredibly cool and made me love Athas and the whole vibe of Dark Sun. Unfortunately I found that all the things that make it an awesome setting can be part of why it doesn't make a great setting for most casual players. Modern 5e is pretty much a power fantasy where you build superheroes that become almost demi gods at high levels. Dark Sun kicks sand in the face of that idea and kills your character while you are still clearing your eyes. Daily checks for finding water, constant exhaustion, unforgiving monsters, these things work against what modern DnD is designed to be. I think this is really the issue but it's a lot easier for Wotc just say slavery is problematic than try to explain that Dark Sun just really isnt in the wheelhouse of what they do anymore.

@WillyMuffinUK

8 ай бұрын

You may well be right - interesting perspective. And my regards to your 3rd/4th cousin - his art really made the setting pop for me. Good match for the subject.

Hey! My halfling does not have a “savage waistline”, thankyou very much! Eating elves & dwarves is quite civilised, I’ll have you know.

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

🤣

My first exposure to Dark Sun was when my childhood buddies older brother had Dark Sun posters up in his room and my buddy played the computer game where ya played escaping from the pits. Still remember the half-giants and the bug folk and fighting the stone golem with a snake body.

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

I maybe should have mentioned the computer games in the video, but... meh, whatever! They were part of the SSI releases, and were fun. Two releases in total - and, just after a quick check, both are available on Steam.

@fedupN

Жыл бұрын

@@WillyMuffinUK Hah! You covered plenty. I was just sharing my experiences. 😄 Also, thanks! I honestly didnt know there were two and didnt even think to check steam. 😆

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

@@fedupN I'm tempted - it's been a good while since I played them!

This was fantastic Athas will always be a favorite of mine. . . A few minutes in and I knew I needed to subscribe thank you for the excellent video

@WillyMuffinUK

7 ай бұрын

Thank-you! Hopefully you'll find other corners of this little KZread space of mine interesting, too!

Darksun is one of the best examples of the genre innovations and system versatility of the 2nd Edition era. An extremely evocative setting. As a matter of taste, I never really approved of the psionics rules back then, both thematically and because they were, frankly awkward. But psionics feels like it belongs to this setting. I could be absolutely wrong here, but I believe the psionics rules packaged with the revised boxed set were an updated version of the rules presented in the psionics handbook. The revised rules were identical to the psionics rules presented in the Skills and Powers book. Also, the initial setting as a Battlesystem vehicle was quite surprising to me. Always entertaining and insightful! Thank you!

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

I think you're right on the Skills & Powers/Psionics bit - it's been a looooong time since I cracked open those Player's Options books!

excellent video!😃👍

@WillyMuffinUK

9 ай бұрын

Thank-you!

Dark Sun is my favorite 2nd Edition new settings along with Planescape. Unfortunately, it is more of a literary predilection for me, as I never managed to play either. I hope you get to Birthright. I know very little about that setting.

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

There's still time to start up a Dark Sun game. Even if it's running one of the published series, I'd encourage you to give it a go.

@KabukiKid

Жыл бұрын

I regret not scooping up Dark Sun, but I did get some Planescape stuff... and I am thankful for that. I'm in the same boat that I never played in either setting, though. lol

1:45 You can make a convincing argument that with 5e, DnD has evolved back into a miniatures wargame.

@WillyMuffinUK

5 ай бұрын

I don't disagree with that statement. I think that had a soft start in 3.5E, and took off in 4E. Personally, I see 4E and 5E as, at heart, miniature skirmish games with a bit of storytelling.

I've been really loving the overall lore of and aesthetics of Dark Sun! At first I didn't like the idea of a realm having no deities and no gods but the more I read about the world of Athas and mysterious dangers like the sea of silt, I immeditely fell in love with the world and the lore surrounding it! I already orded two versions of the prism pentad books (paper back and hard cover)!!! The muls (half dwarf half men) are also VERY interesting and unique to see, something different than the usual elf vs human vs dwarf that we always see in d&d worlds.

@WillyMuffinUK

10 ай бұрын

It is one of the better official D&D worlds - mainly because it is so different. I'm also normally not a fan of half-breeds, but the Muls do make sense - they have an origin and purpose, in the Sorcerer Kings having bred them for workforce and gladiators, and that they are sterile ties into the mule base. Anyway, glad to hear that it's piqued your interest!

I didn't play dark sun and regret it. I flipped through the books from time to time and loved everything I saw, but alas, nobody else in my little coven was interested.

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

Ah, a common tale of woe. If my groups could be interested in every wild thing I picked up and enjoyed reading through, I'm not sure we'd get anything run to completion!

It's a shame wizards of the coast seems to be afraid of dark sun. It's strange because most of the themes that they're worried will trigger people exist in the forgotten realms to this day. It would be nice if WOTC would just sell it off to allow someone to develop the setting in earnest instead of squandering the material by hiding it away.

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

I can see why they're unlikely to sell - an IP in the hand is worth more than in the hands of someone else. But yes, I agree with you in that I can't see what they're afraid of. It's not like the setting promotes slavery.

@TwilightxKnight13

11 ай бұрын

Just another example of how a tiny minority of loud progressives ruins things for the rest of us because if they don't like something, no one can have it. Its ridiculous.

I never was overly interested in playing Dark Sun when it came out, but I do sort of regret not buying it... if even just for the collectability of it now. lol I'd also honestly like to tuck into it now to read just for fun. :-)

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

For me, it was seeing the prospectus ahead of release that looked like D&D was doing Dune that made me get the initial set. And then it not being totally like Dune, but still a great setting, that led me to stick with it. I've never run a prolonged campaign in the setting, but have run the published ones a couple of times - and they are primeval fun.

Ohhhh I'm excited for this one!

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

I hope it doesn't disappoint.

Thanks for the great representation of Dark sun! The game world has always fascinated me, but I could never convince my fellow players to play a campaign there. The psi powers and magic system put them off, as did the harsh conditions there. Nevertheless, I still use the materials from the basic box for my own campaign and so dark sun has - in parts - found its way into our game world. And my players don't even know it.🤫

@WillyMuffinUK

11 ай бұрын

Sneaky!! 🙂

@DemonPrinceofHell

10 ай бұрын

How could psi powers put anyone off? Have they never played shadowrun? LOL

@WillyMuffinUK

10 ай бұрын

@@DemonPrinceofHell The odds are, they probably haven't!

@DerEwigeKodex

9 ай бұрын

@@DemonPrinceofHell OK, I'll try. ✌

A harsh, untamed wasteland...

@WillyMuffinUK

4 ай бұрын

Indeed. Dangerous place to get a tan!

You missed the Mind Lords of the Last (Lost?) Sea. Also, tge Dragon Kings book had Battle System rules incorporated into it, and was the second release for the setting, iirc.

@WillyMuffinUK

6 ай бұрын

Yes, you're not the first to notice Mind Lords! Dragon Kings was a few releases way in, not the second. Good book, except that I feel it encouraged players - intentionally or not - to attempt the paths to Dragons or Avangions, which I felt broke things somewhat.

@davidlfort

6 ай бұрын

@@WillyMuffinUK I'm not gonna disagree with that assessment. Sorry to pile on, I didn't see a mention in the time I allotted to reading comments. Still, actually playing a campaign to ascendant being levels would be kind of awesome.

@WillyMuffinUK

6 ай бұрын

@@davidlfort All good - I'm the same, when it comes to comment threads. Only so much time! I think it would be awesome, but I feel it would need to be set up as a goal from the start. When we are first introduced to Athasian dragons, we are shown them to be unique (The Dragon), or, the few times we "see" Sorcerer Kings in dragon form, inherently self-serving and evil. To stat them out as a class progression made them too accessible - the mystery gone, the blueprint for "how to become" laid bare. I think an epic campaign where the goal is to ascend would be cool - but, who in the party ascends? Everyone? That puts a mockery on dragons and avangions being rare. One or two? Isn't that exclusionary towards the rest of the PCs? Not knocking the book or it's place - it was a useful volume for the setting. I just feel that handling dragons and avangions outside of the class system might have worked better. Of course, just my opinion!

This was good.

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

Thank-you!

@KabukiKid

Жыл бұрын

Very good. Excellent, even.

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

@@KabukiKid Well, thank-you!

Everything gets weird beyond the Prism. Marauders shouldn't be hassling pacifists.

@WillyMuffinUK

Жыл бұрын

I'm not sure marauders care who they hassle!

I still play Dark Sun. I think the main problem WOTC has is the racism in the setting. Humans, Halflings and Elves are all depicted as racist in Dark Sun. The halflings are so racist they orchestrated hundreds of successful genocides of various fantasy races. Then there is the matter of Mul's and Half-giants and how they are made and it's fairly horrific, and could seriously trigger rape survivors. I like grimdark though and I think the setting is kino.

@WillyMuffinUK

8 ай бұрын

Does it count as grimdark? And what is kino? Anyway, the racial stuff... Maybe. But it is the context of the setting. I do get a bit weirded out when people. get upset by fantasy depictions of fantasy races not liking each other. But hey ho. We are where we are. The setting is a harsh one, and the depictions of the races within it are accordingly harsh. To remove that harshness is to diminish the setting. Maybe that's why it has been left, given the current social environment.

I trully want a Dark Sun RPG the likes of BG 3, preferably made by Larion or the guys that made Solastra, Owl cat did not deliver much in pathfinder!

@WillyMuffinUK

7 ай бұрын

No idea about Owl Cat, nor Pathfinder really (far too many D&D clones as it is) - but totally agree with having Larian do Dark Sun could be awesome. They've certainly pulled no punches with BG3.