Thanks for featuring me on your channel! I'm happy to answer any V2G related questions. -Jai

@MusikCassette

6 ай бұрын

some how youtube deleted my comment. my question was: how could V2G ever be competitive to stationary batteries? I explained my reasons in more detail in a comment somewhat earlier. sorry for not providing a link to the comment. I am not sure if that was the reason youtube deleted my question in the first place.

@The18107j

6 ай бұрын

@@MusikCassette If you are buying an EV for the purpose of powering your house (and not driving the car), then it's not competitive. If you already have the car, or are buying the car anyway, then a V2G charger provides access to the car's battery for when you don't need all of it. Most car batteries are in the range of 5-15x the capacity of a house battery. Even using 30% of your car battery (and leaving 70% for travelling) can be more available capacity for the same cost as installing a house battery. The Quasar 1 is lacking a few features that makes house batteries particularly enticing: blackout protection, and home power matching (powering the home without importing or exporting to the grid). If the new V2G chargers have these features, and can be bought for less than the cost of a house battery, a V2G charger could be a cost competitive alternative to a house battery for people who have their cars at home during peak usage time.

@MusikCassette

6 ай бұрын

@@The18107j in that example would that not mean, that my car battery is 30% to big vor my day to day uses? That I carry around 30% more weight than necessary and paid 30% to much on the car battery? would it not be better to have a 30% smaller Batterie in my car and have that capacity in my house let us say in form of 2nd life 20% degraded car batteries. That way I payed less for the over all capacity and I have less weight, that I drive around. on the other hand, I wasn't talking about V2H. I was talking about V2G. having a bidirectional charger has benefits that are not in those economic calculations. It adds flexibility and energy security. I was talking about V2G where the Grid pays vehicle owners for using their batteries. What I mean If they pay a fair prise, than there are cheaper options for them in stationary batteries. And on top of that those options are even higher value for them and easier to manage.

@nc3826

6 ай бұрын

@@The18107j V2G is a fascinating concept, until you factor in the initial high cost and that most people commute to work..... Which is when demand exceeds supply... Australia is the ideal market for V2G, but only for stay at home businesses such as influencers..... When battery swapping becomes a more widespread option, it will be a far more practical way of doing electricity arbitrage... To timeshift high demand periods with high supply periods.... IMHO...

@mikeklein4949

6 ай бұрын

Firewood also has limited applications for mobility.

When grid-based solar panel inverters cost about $1000, I don’t see why a V2G box would have to be so expensive. It’s probably the low production numbers that keeps the price up. When production numbers go up, the prices should go down and V2G will hopefully become the standard EV home connector. 🤞

@MusikCassette

6 ай бұрын

I don't see that working out economically on a big scale.

@Conservator.

6 ай бұрын

@@MusikCassette Why not? Especially in places with lots of wind and solar energy, there’s a need for storage and EVs can provide that with even a small amount of the capacity of their batteries. EVs could automatically charge when energy prices are low and feed the grid when prices are high. The benefits for power generation companies are enormous so they are happy to pay for it. Why wouldn’t it work on a large scale?

@MusikCassette

6 ай бұрын

@@Conservator. charging when prices are low, yes. But V2G includes feeding the energy back into the Grid. And I can not see a large scale situation where this would not be cheaper to do with stationary batteries. Be it car batteries in their second live are just cheaper battery types. Using batteries that are still used for transport for that is extracting value from the wrong part of their lifecycle. The wear in this part of the batteries life does not only cost capacity but also energy density. And for a vehicle, that is valuable.

@ottot3221

6 ай бұрын

@@MusikCassette There is no wear of the batteries. If anything it keeps the batteries more healthy. The "wear" accurse when massive amount of energy are all at once taken or put on the batteries. For instance when pulling up from 0 to 100 in 2.3 seconds. V2X doesn't do that.

@MusikCassette

6 ай бұрын

@@ottot3221 yes there is. it might be lower than the wear from the regular use of the battery, but that does not change that stationary batteries are even cheaper.

Yet another outstanding video from Rosie, thanks as always. V2G stabilization experiments with school busses is a really interesting offshoot of this. They spend the vast majority of the day stationary and the amount of residual energy they are going to need when put into service is very predictable.

Thank you for your video. I live in the Netherlands. My Toyota Prius hybrid is now 17 years old. It still works fine but I know I need to upgrade to a full EV in the next few years. I want a car that does V2X so I started to research it and only the Nissan Leaf is a car that is affordable for me. Even the car sales man told he he didn't know anything about the V2X component of that car! It was kind of frustrating. The 2 other cars on the market are 70K or more and go above my budget. It's super frustrating and I hope V2X will be the standard in a few years time. Things like the wallbox should become cheaper due to mass production (I hope). In 2022 Utrecht (city in the Netherlands) said they wanted to be the first V2G city in the world and they use modified Ionic 5's (it's part of a European project) so these cars could be it but not for regular customers like me.

@UCCLdIk6R5ECGtaGm7oqO-TQ

6 ай бұрын

If cheap home battery storage is the desire then I think one cost-effective option today is to just use a Leaf battery pack plugged into a relatively inexpensive inverter (search Dala EV).

I bought a Nissan Leaf (62 kWh) to use as a home battery, and optionally as a mode of transport. (I probably drive less than 6 hours during a normal working month. Unfortunately I hadn't done enough research and abandoned the idea of V2X for the time being. My reasons: - The Wallbox Quasar 1 is still available in the Netherlands, but has been out of production for a while. - I believe that it's a DC charger using the ChaDeMo connector, which is rapidly being phased out in Europe, with CCS2 now being the mandated by the EU. This means that the charger wouldn't be compatible with any car I buy in the future. - At 4,500 Euros, the Quasar is more than three times the price of a Zappi smart charger. A lot of cash to fork out for an obsolete product, that I could junk next time I buy a car. I believe that the EU is going to mandate V2X via CCS in the near future, so I'm hoping to still be able to do this sometime. The Wallbox Quasar 2 works with CCS, I believe, and has been promised since last year. There's still no sign of it becoming available yet. The number of EVs that (maybe?) support this in Europe is still limited, and I'm not convinced that this really works. The manufacturers only seem to officially support V2L at the moment. - Renault Megane E-Tech Electric - Hyundai Ioniq 5 - Kia EV6

V2G IMO is an absolutely essential part of transitioning the grid to renewables. Additionally we should be encouraging daytime workplaces to install (grid communicating!) EV chargers so that all that cheap(or negatively priced!) daytime solar can be soaked up and stored in EV batteries to reduce household peak hour usage instead of being an additional massive load/burden on the grid when all the commuters get home and plug in. Plus this reduces the amount of total grid storage required which helps us transition even faster. Yes it means your EV battery will degrade slightly faster but the benefits outweigh the costs! I'm about a year or so from buying an EV and VTG is a MUST HAVE feature for me!

@MusikCassette

6 ай бұрын

I can not see V2G being competitive to stationary batteries.

@Imakilln

6 ай бұрын

It's not only about being cost competitive (which it is because it saves you a buttload on peak usage rates alone / can buy when prices are negative as shown), It's about an efficient use of resources - Generating electricity, storing it, transporting it to your house and again storing it in an EV is just inefficient. You effectively at need TWO batteries somewhere instead of one.. @@MusikCassette

@tomr6955

6 ай бұрын

Delusional

@bearcubdaycare

6 ай бұрын

​@@MusikCassetteIf a car already has a 60kWh battery pack, the incremental cost of using it V2G could be very small, just the additional cycles on the battery each year. If an EV's LFP battery pack has a cycle life of 8000, then V2G usage may not degrade the car's life much, for a storage that's much more than, say, a Tesla PowerWall. Comparing to massive grid storage batteries is harder, but may turn out not to be so bad, given an EV has batteries anyway.

@MusikCassette

6 ай бұрын

@@Imakilln I am talking about resources. And what I mean is, that using car batteries instead of stationär batteries fundamentally must be the more wasteful way.

When looking at the amount of useful storage in vehicles, you should use, say, 10%, of the car battery capacity. Most would be happy to get paid for that without compromising the use of the car, or degrading the battery.

Thanks for revisiting the topic, and particularly the product, that upgrades V2L to V2H is a brilliant thing to know about! BTW: the Kia EV9 will be the first Kia to get full V2G capability and I understand from their press release this will be true for all e-GMP cars from model year 2024! So Hyundai Ionic 5+6, Kia EV6, EV9, Genesis GV60, … But potentially not the Niro, better to check! They will also offer their own bidirectional chargers, both as AC and DC versions. Certainly something to keep an eye on!

The grid providers should be supportive of V2X. But they are fighting it in every way.

If you want to learn more about scaled V2G roll outs in the US, reach out Rosie! We have EV school buses performing V2G duties across the US!

@nc3826

6 ай бұрын

it's the best use case scenario.... But if it's the only use case, it's an example of the lack of scalability....

As you point out there is huge energy available in EV batteries that would be available to support the grid and home loads. Utilities need to allow and fairly reward V2G/ home battery owners and EV makers need to allow V2G taking into account increased battery cycles on warranties. V2G and V2L/H will surely become quite popular in the future.

The epitome of rationality. Thank you Rosie!

I haven't really considered getting an EV car as I don't drive much but if V2H is made available in Victoria, I might seriously consider it. Instead of getting a home battery, having a car that can power the house in an outage and soak up all the excess solar would be a plus. V2G would be a bonus.

Expect power companies to work against anything that reduces their profitability.

Nice to see V2G ... were i live in the US you can only do V2L or V2H, again a modified setup that you would have for solar and battery to power the house or parts of it when power is off.. but they require you to disconnect those circuits from the grid with a transfer switch (the same one people use with a gas powered generator). In our area it is the power companies that are mostly preventing V2G and probably the coal power peaker plants lobbyists to the power company. So in the US we pretty much have V2L and V2transfer switch loads I have been told by friends that it will be 1-2 years before our local power company has (time or whatever) to be able to put in tV2G or in many cases even home solar to grid. The reason we spouted is each one of these houses is being setup as an individual peaker plant . So yea US is .. no were near the top on V2G allowability. there are many places were home solar/battery are being setup and allowed but again you need the power company's permission (and dual direction meter installation) before they allow you to hook up evenfull V2H. The only way to do it in most cases is literally a transfer switch for your new solar setup or waiting for your local power company to ok it.

Thanks. A much needed report. In many countries regulatory issues are one major hold-up to change to V2G, but V2L & V2H can sidestep these issues.

We have 5.2kwp solar, 8.4kwh storage installed here in the uk. Have another ev in the atto3 on order and it is frustrating how v2h and v2g isn't mainstream yet. Our house battery doesn't last through dinner time in the darker months but found a workaround to take advantage of the byd v2l feature. Ecoflow do a 'powerstream' micro inverter designed for balcony solar systems and to integrate with their own batteries. Instead I'm running a semi-permanent cable from the car into an ecoflow battery in the house to top up my home storage. Best workaround for now until some real efforts are made to utilise these huge ev batteries.

I see a problem with V2G and even V2L: If you can free charge at work and put the power to your house for the rest of the day or even a home battery, you can safe money and taxes. But maybe it is not legal. For exampel, in Germany we can charge our private EV at work without paying tax on it as part of getting EVs started. The company could benefit on lower salery and higher electric consumption (if high enough, they don't need to pay powerline-fees and some taxes to help power-hungry companies). If you do so, you can use 20 kWh at home every workday or even 40-60 kWh on the weekend. That would be 1400-2000€ per year, so a significant amount.

The concept of battery connection to the network (Vehicle To Grid) is very attractive. The network in dynamics understands the capacity and power of the total battery from all batteries of different types and form factors. This provides great opportunities.

Hello from the states. Excellent video. I don't understand why more vehicles don't offer V2H or to Grid. This is nuts! The local power companies here i'm sure are delaying all of this to keep homeowners from getting in on the distributed generation. Great video.. the wallbox is available in the US. but the leaf ? Its just not a popular vehicle and the grid operators don't offer the quasar tariff system.

@nc3826

6 ай бұрын

Buy a Ford Lightning..... It offers V2H in the US.... But the payback period for any form of V2G in the US is about forever and a day..... So good luck with that mate..... FWIW "the states" "tariff", it's so amusing that those brit terms have entered the American lexicon.....

Pretty cool when you can make money both when providing power AND when consuming it to charge!

Really interesting video. Might be useful to add what the safety issue with DIY V2G and V2H is. Namely that during a power cut there will be engineers working on the wires to reconnect them. They won't be expecting the house side of the system to be live, but with an unregulated home supply installation of any sort, that could make it live and hence very dangerous. And the other thing that's always at the back of my cynical mind in these discussions is the question of the true intentions of many grid operators. They often seem keen to discourage any kind of microgeneration contributing to the grid. I suspect them of wanting to keep supplying us for as long as possible and delay anything that involves them having to pay us more, or charge us less. It's my view that sluggishness on V2G is not actually so much down technical or safety considerations as it is the result of behind-the-scenes lobbying from the network operators.

@UCCLdIk6R5ECGtaGm7oqO-TQ

6 ай бұрын

The safety aspect would be no different than a property having a grid-tied solar/wind/hydro/battery system. I completely agree with your 'cynical' thinking. I don't doubt there will be those keen to keep things the way they are for selfish reasons. Users running their own power systems means the decentralisation of, and independence from, the supply networks of power companies and their shareholders.

@The18107j

6 ай бұрын

The Quasar 1 will turn off if there is a power cut, while the Quasar 2 will have a switch that will disconnect the house from the grid so it can keep powering the house. All V2G chargers are required to follow the grid regulations before they are approved for installation.

As someone who is interested in living off grid, in UK it can be cheaper to build a house without a grid connection so V2H sounds like a great idea, this would then reduce the size of batteries required to power the home but it must be useable without a grid connection, the added bonus is if you do have a prolonged power cut you can drive your battery to a charging station that is working so you have more power for your home.

Absolutely a win/win deal!

The biggest barrier to V2G at scale is the warranty provided with the vehicle which is limited in terms of miles covered but does not currently allow for charge/discharge cycles associated with V2G. The increasing popularity of batteries such as LFP which allow for many times the number of such cycles required for auto use, will presumably help but this does need to be thought through.

@UCCLdIk6R5ECGtaGm7oqO-TQ

6 ай бұрын

That may well be the case from a legal standpoint, but I think it'd be daft from a technology standpoint as the kind of charge/discharge rates these packs would see in a V2x setup likely wouldn't come even remotely close to the stresses seen during use as a vehicle.

@nc3826

6 ай бұрын

incorrect.... Ford offers V2X In North America without a warranty limitation.... but it's mostly designed for V2H and its costly, so it's usage is limited....

Also for consideration, $25k to replace car battery, based on cycles. Home office users should know that V2G not able to instantly switch on in blackout, but some home battery systems can.

@nc3826

6 ай бұрын

Go ask NIO..... It uses battery swapping stations in the same manner, without degrading the battery packs....

The cost calculation does have a small flaw: It does not include the opportunity cost. You don't buy an EV as a battery, you buy an EV INSTEAD of a petrol car. So, you can substract the lifetime cost of petrol car, to get the pure "added cost". Only the added cost matters to evaluate the economic viability. Over the lifetime (10yr), an EV+wallbox costs around the same as a petrol car. I.e. EV - 55k Energy E - 15k Wallbox (V2G) - 10k Total - 80k Petrol car - 30k Energy Petrol - 40k Total - 70k --------------------- This is the cost baseline: Your EV-V2G Setup, did only "cost" 10k. Because only 10k is the additional cost over your alternative. (Unless you have the opportunity to live without a car, but noone would buy a V2G without needing a car.) So, you ONLY have to plot your 10k added cost versus the "income" of electricity. If you can make just 3€ a day average (note, mitigated cost of self use DOES count), you would break even. Most likely though, you do much more than just 3€ when including the mitigated electricity cost. At 10€, you would make a surplus of 26000€.

Love these videos. Shared it with the Chargefox team.

Thank you so much for such an interesting and weel researched and produced video. V2H looks very interesting.

Very good, thank you for the video

Great explainer of the current status of V2X - thank you 🙏😊

Thank you for turnig up in my feed.

Another very interesting video ,thanks Rosie . I am stuck deciding whether to buy an Ioniq 5 now ,with limited V2H , or wait for the bevy of cars to come ..

I like the idea of V2G in the UK but the extra costs, the need for type2/CCS compatibility, the car makers supporting the tech and the still high 9-5 work week (not at home to charge on excess solar) make it a long way off here for home users. I can see it working with businesses with a high electric fleet sooner as thes cost can be claimed through the business, also the more vehicles in one location reducing costs so the payback period being shorter, we will see...

I expect V2G to be mandated in places like South Australia in the long run. Otherwise, people with roof top solar don't pay their share of grid maintence. The same pressures that yield high non market feed-in tariffs will make the ev adopters powerless to avoid the mandates.

Power a house for several days…including heating/ AC… I don’t think so. Several hours perhaps. It gets me that we often hear: This wind farm can produce enough electricity to power X no homes. But do they say whether this includes heating? (ps, I think V2G is great and should be mandatory, certainly no grants without it)

@The18107j

6 ай бұрын

My car will last for 10 hours while exporting at 5kW. Most houses don't use 5kW continuously, and most houses with a battery or V2G charger also have solar. Even without solar, the car should last for at least 16 hours. On a typical day (not 40C+), the battery should have easily over 24 hours worth of power in it.

Very interesting vid Rosie, I had misunderstood that V2G was even available. Sadly the EV we have on order is not v2g capable, but will definitely be requirement of the next. (Wonderful to see your little one up and about too, nothing better than going to work with parents :) ).

@nc3826

6 ай бұрын

It could just require a software update, at some point to have that capability....

@glenandersson1114

6 ай бұрын

Quasar 2 will work with ccs

@chrisdardis4794

6 ай бұрын

Interesting, so that may work with the EX30@@glenandersson1114

Hi Rosie I am currently using V2L from my BYD Seal in conjunction with my home solar system to power my home. There is a video about it on my channel.

Awesome 👍 I have a byd and am waiting to buy quasar 2 and feed the grid

Thanks, Rosie, great vid as usual! What was that "home adapter" you showed near the end of the vid to plug in the Ioniq? I'm guessing just a transfer switch?

Thanks Rosie. I have just bought a 64 kwh MG4. Haven't used VTL or VTG but I believe it has that capability if needed in future. South Australia is such an innovator in use of PV to grid and battery grid storage. Great to have such reliable sunshine too.

@mannbat

6 ай бұрын

The MG4 only supports V2L, no V2G or V2H. There are reports on the MG EVs forum that the MG4 can provide 7kW with the right adapter, but that well exceeds what the official specs say, so it could be a warranty-voiding exercise to put that kind of load on the vehicle.

@The18107j

6 ай бұрын

@@mannbat The MG4 doesn't officially support V2G yet, but I suspect that's mostly because the CCS V2G standard isn't finalised yet, and the manufacturers don't want to over-promise. I wouldn't be surprised to see the MG4 get V2G/V2H via an over-the-air update once CCS V2G chargers start becoming available.

I know that Germany is rolling out vehicle to grid. The customers get paid for the use of the battery by the grid. You do not have to pay for the connector that manages the demand from the grid. Many standard wall boxes there do V2G and V2H. You can program at what times your battery has to be full or what percentage you will need. I live in Iceland and my car , a Skoda Enyaq, would work with V2G. The problem here is, that Iceland does not need more storage.

I installed a 12v dc to 120v ac sign wave inverter under the hood of my electric Nissan Leaf. The 12v battery is continually charged from the larger (350v?) power train battery. With this I am able to run 120 volt tools in remote locations. Also, when I have a power outage, I run a chord into the house to power high priority uses (lights, refrigerator, freezer, electronic communications), but is not run through the main breaker box. The get the continuous charging of the 12v battery from the 350v battery, the car has to be on. The 12 volt battery will quickly discharge with the house loads without access to the car's larger 40kwh battery. I generally wait a few hours to determine if the power outage makes it worth pulling chords for. I think this qualifies as VtoH. DIY approach.

@The18107j

6 ай бұрын

It's effectively V2L. I like it.

here is Why I don't think, that v2g can work on the long term: if scaled up stationary batteries will be substantially cheaper than the batteries in cars. Be it because we use second live batteries from vehicles or because we use cheaper battery types for that. Stationary batteries can afford to have lower energy density and higher demands on conditions such like temperature. So assuming, that grids pay a fair price for the use of the batteries to the car owners their will be cheaper options for the same or better products. The wear on batteries, that still serve as car batteries does not only cost capacity. It also costs energy density. Using car batteries to stabilize the Grid is extracting value from the wrong part of their life cycle. v2h is a bit different.

@davidmartin3947

6 ай бұрын

Batteries do not degrade at a constant rate. If they are somewhere in the region of 20-80% charged, and the rate of draw is low, then degradation will be very low. High rates of draw and really flattening the battery have the opposite effect. The battery capacity from a substantially electrified fleet will be massive compared to draw for any short term period, so there is no reason why V2G can't provide frequency regulation, cover for peaks etc. I am less clear on covering for extended periods, for instance cold snaps in Northern Euope, so at least in some climates it appears that long term storage will also be needed. You certainly do not want to get into a situation where you are substantially discharging the battery capacity of the fleet when inputs from solar and wind are low.

@MusikCassette

6 ай бұрын

@@davidmartin3947 That may be true, or not. I am not enough of a battery expert argue that. But I don't see how that would change the equation. The same would be true for stationary batteries. Perhaps even more because they were actually made for the use case.

@davidmartin3947

6 ай бұрын

@@MusikCassette Stationary batteries are sometimes purpose built for the job, in which case they are very different to batteries in your car, which somewhat supports your case, as they then typically trade being heavy, as that does not matter if they are not running around in a car, for better cycle life etc, and sometimes they are repurposed car batteries, who can no longer support the demanding application of car use, but have enough life remaining for stationary use as it does not hammer them as much as in cars. But the point of using V2G is if, and it is an if, they are used correctly, so that the impact on their lifetime is negligible as they are not discharged deeply then they are essentially free to support the grid. That is because there will be one heck of a lot of them relative to grid usage. In ball park figures a home might use 1kw per hour. A car battery is maybe 70KWh or so. But you are not running your home on it, but giving an occasional boost, so for instance at dinner time after the sun is down you might have a peak draw of, say, 5KWh. So the draw is not substantial relative to the capacity of the battery. And the car battery is already paid for, and does not need to be bought for the purpose It is as very different matter in a cold snap or whatever, so you would not want to use the car battery and run it flat over, say, 3 days if there is no sun or whatever. I would argue that present storage batteries are not too great as multi day support either, but fortunately there are alternatives, mainly although not exclusively by making chemicals for storage. It they are only needed,, say, once a year, then the efficiency losses of turning electricity to chemical and back again are not critical. V2G is just one of the tools we have, but a darn handy one if used properly, just like most things.

That's a nice theory, as long as you don't use the car to drive elsewhere@noon/high sunshine time. Except you may charge at your w0rkplace and take the power home for a good warm or cool night. And, while house batteries are good to get your house through the night, they are not made for vehicle recharging.

Hi Rosie, love your work but from everything I’ve seen in your video and read about this over the years is that it is still a solution looking for a problem. Niche at best. When I arrive home at peak hour from work plus kids sport, etc. I want what’s left in the car battery just in case I need it, an emergency at worst. I am definitely not going to choose to charge at peak hour and maybe no time to. Blackouts typically mean something bad has happened and again, I want everything I have in the car to get away and potentially even live in if the situation is that bad (see current Queensland fires where people are left with nowhere to live but their cars). When everyone has an EV and the automated coordination is there to take a very small amount from each car then maybe I’ll join in. I’m not such a geek as to want to personally manage from where and how much power is coming from and going to at any time of the day. I’m not even going to get into EV warranties, etc. here. Everyone has their own scenario of uses cases but for now, solar plus home batteries and an EV are a no brainer for those who can afford it.

Thanks!

I'm running a V2H charger on the Indra trial, it's giving me 12kWh of storage from my 2014 Leaf. It's reduced my electricity cost by 22% in the 2 months it's been installed and that's during a Northern Hemisphere Winter, in the Summer it should mean we can managed for around 3-4 months of the year with minimal electricity import.

I love the baby cameo!

Great video. I wish my Tesla have v2g capability. We are just in the beginning of the journey to the decentralized and robust grid.

Thanks

Great video, Rosie. I am really hoping V2G becomes a more standard part of grids and EVs in the coming years. Too good a mutual benefit to turn down I think.

Demand Side Management is technically as good for the grid as V2G, it doesn't matter for the grid if you "remove" a load or provide power during peak demand, the net effect is the same, in theory, reducing your load have no energy losses, it's slightly better. DSM also doesn't require hardware for putting power back to the grid. Sure, providing power instead of drawing power during peak demand is even better than just not drawing power, twice as good, for any given power level or amount of energy, minus losses, but personally I feel DSM gets nowhere near the focus it should. Not that V2G is bad, it would really be great if V2G systems became cheap, good and installed essentially everywhere, and that requires people buying early systems for whatever they cost, so early adopters don't "just" help by providing some power back to the grid, they also show there's a demand, and increase the chance that V2G systems become cheap, good, and common.

@chrisschneider7609

6 ай бұрын

I have had an EV for over a decade now (3 different teslas). My next ev must be v2h or g. No test has ever found an issue with this. It's obvious and easy. It's simply power companies holding it back... I wonder if the little fake v2h thing you showed would be allowed in Queensland, the most unfriendly storage state. Hopefully, we wake up soon. V2h/g is critical and could be a huge saver for the grid! That snowy example is a great one! EVs are such an amazing opportunity, and v2h will drive adoption! There is no downside here!

We are getting there, slowly, but eventually. Part of the concern is still the wear and tear on your expensive car battery. While they are much better than previously thought, and getting better, too much V2G may degrade the capacity of your car battery at a faster rate. LiFePo batteries may be better for V2G at this time- but let's see what new technologies come down the pike over the next 2-5 years- single crystal anodes, true solid state batteries, etc... Our eventual goal is to add more PV panels to our home and 2-4 Tesla Powerwalls... when and if we can afford the upgrade ;-) I was a bit disappointed that Elon has not integrated V2G in the Tesla models yet, as we just bought a new Model Y last month, hoping that would have been included. c'est la vie :-0

Kona V2L + victron multiplus II = ❤️

Batteries on Wheels, how much more convenient!

I am thinking that the best vehicle to load application is to a home battery. No need for big outputs, simply a kind of trickle charge, letting the home battery deal with big surges in power consumption. We don't have time of use billing here in BC and so there is no financial incentive to get a vehicle/battery to grid system. I'm thinking about it as an insurance policy in case of extended power outages during fire season that could damage valuable inventory. If time of use billing was introduced, I'm sure there would be a rebellion. However, BC Hydro could introduce it to those who have or want to have a home battery/ev setup. Not only could one make a bit of money, but it would also stabilise the grid.

@nc3826

6 ай бұрын

BC Hydro is a renewable that's not intermittent..... So It's not needed by the grid....

@electrosyzygy

6 ай бұрын

Does BC Hydro at least have a time of use billing system that is voluntary? Why would people rebel? Hydro Quebec has implemented one with a subsidy for home refits. Basically IoT thermostats, outlets etc. connected to their app. You get notifications within a gamified system to incentivize cutting consumption at peak demand and vice versa. New houses mostly install this new gen stuff from the get go.

@leroyharder4491

6 ай бұрын

@@nc3826 Our grid has all the variable demand problems that all grids do. Power demand is not constant and grids have to design for max demand. Reducing peak demand could reduce the number of hydro projects and save the system a bunch of money.

@leroyharder4491

6 ай бұрын

@@electrosyzygy I have poked around and not found this option...yet

@nc3826

6 ай бұрын

@@leroyharder4491 Nope, 1st most EV charging is already done during off-peak periods. Plus there is no variable demand problem, when the supply is variable ie hydro, without the added cost and complexity of V2G. KISS

Wireless vehicle charging could make this more practical feasible and convenient not having to plug in and out all the time.

I wonder what is holding Tesla back from providing bidirectional batteries in their cars? Is it just to support their powerwall sales?

Fabulous!!

5:36 (and 5:45) '40 kW' -> '40 kWh'. Why does everyone get this wrong? Full marks to Jai for getting it right.

I've wondered for a while if the biggest reason against this becoming widespread may be political. I don't see any insurmountable technological limitations to prevent it, and it does seem to tick many boxes for its usefulness in meeting stated energy transition goals, but do wonder at the degree of resistance that might be seen behind closed doors from present-day entrenched interests looking to maintain the existing state of affairs.

This should have been a required feature of EVs from Day One.

BYD Home Battery? I didn’t know they made those available? In New Zealand? Thanks. Laurie. 😊

Very nice video. I'm in New York City. I've never heard of being paid to take electricity from the grid. Is that possible because the utility makes an excess? I like your regulations. We have a second home in a rural area, and the power company is allowed to charge us $20/month even when our net usage is negative. You have better deals in Australia.

V2G sounds really interesting. I was an early adopter of solar with the feed in Tarif of 42c. But when that expires, I might try the V2G instead.

Aside:- Love the babe in arms during filming - you do seem to have life sorted :)

Tack!

I don't think vehicles will end up being a good solution for civil energy storage. People won't want to wake up to a car with less range in the morning than when it was plugged in the previous evening. This is really only viable for cars that get lots of charging time during the day. That would include second cars that stay home most of the time, cars used for only occasional commuting because of WFH, etc. I don't think that will happen much, as I would guess that most EV owners have either only one car or only one EV and some additional ICE vehicle(s) Owners of electric cars also aren't going to be keen to get the extra wear on the battery from the extra charge cycles. The extra cost of battery replacement, maintenance, or reduction in resale value from battery degradation seem very likely to offset any earnings from sales back to the grid during peak pricing. The homeowner you interviewed said he's making about $700/yr. That's interesting, but a replacement Nissan leaf battery runs about $10k AUD. I have a hard time imagining this taking off in the near term.

@haveaseatplease

6 ай бұрын

You can set the limits for discharging (and for charging) and one hundred other parameters.

@rtfazeberdee3519

6 ай бұрын

The discharge is AC so less stressful on the battery and if you set the car to only give 1kW per hour on V2G, you are not going to lose much range but you will be able to configure when, how long and how much the grid can take before it starts to recharge your battery, It's all in your hands

@warmon6

6 ай бұрын

For your first part, an EV owner would never experience that as long as they have the right setting adjusted on their EV and EVSE. Minimum state of charge before cutoff (say an EV never get below 60% battery), what times are allowed to discharge, and most importantly, what time to start charging. Since V2G is mainly use for time of use rates, most people that use it only send power to the grid when there's peak demand going on (aka when power cost the most). That only last from 5pm to 8~9pm in most areas around the world. Overnight when electricity is usually at its cheapest (usually by midnight), people charge their evs. It doesn't make sense to keep sending power to the grid when it doesn't make sense to financially do so. So by morning, their evs are charged up to whatever max SoC they set. So like said, they would never experience that in a normal situation. (Grid outage would be the only situation that'll happen but then thats a whole other kettle of fish of issues that be the least of an EV owner worry).

Giant leap forward from hunting for and storing firewood in the back or the front of the cave.

@EngineeringwithRosie

6 ай бұрын

Lol

As I've understood it the long term objection to V2G is that car batteries are optimised for power & weight and not price (i.e. they are expensive) whereas home batteries are optimised for power & price (so not weight). What this all means is that we should see a divergence of these batteries and using your vehicle battery would be "expensive" as you wear it down without using your vehicle.

@NeblogaiLT

6 ай бұрын

Batteries are getting better in both aspects, with car LFP chemistry able to do 5000+ cycles (that is a daily recharge for 13.7 years). And this is even expected to improve to 8000 cycles by 2025, 10000 by 2030 (as well as sodiums coming for cheap cars with sufficiently high cycle count too). So there should be no problem in using cars for grid/home energy. Instead, there should be incentives to get cars with lasting batteries, and join VtG.

Hi Rosie I was just wondering given the potential increase of charge/discharge, charge cycles on the car battery how, if at all, does this affect the longevity of the battery especially the lithium types. Good idea though.

@chrisschneider7609

6 ай бұрын

The usage of evs in v2g is small compared to driving them. Very little effect.

I want V2H that works with the power out and will activate my solar micro inverters. We will see how long that takes in Washington state. Currently I put a 12v to 120v inverter on my leaf to run my fridge during a power outage.

I very much look forward to this being in our collective future. One question I wonder is how to wire this up. The charger circuit (50A 240V) can’t take much power over it, not nearly enough for the entire house. I guess we need a much fatter cable to the charger?

@UCCLdIk6R5ECGtaGm7oqO-TQ

6 ай бұрын

12,000 watts, as per your example, is a lot of power which shouldn't prove limiting for most people. Even so, if you're still on the grid, then if necessary power would be simultaineously drawn from there too.

@benoithudson7235

6 ай бұрын

@@UCCLdIk6R5ECGtaGm7oqO-TQ : it's pretty easy to draw more than 12 kW load (or 9.6 kW continuous) from an entire electrified home. All my appliances, hot water, and heat are electric (plus the car). If I'm augmenting then sure; as a home backup it wouldn't really be enough.

@UCCLdIk6R5ECGtaGm7oqO-TQ

6 ай бұрын

@@benoithudson7235 I'd have thought in an emergency backup situation most people with sense wouldn't be so demanding on it. For that sort of demand you'll be needing more than just thicker cabling - you'll be needing a powerful inverter. It'd be useful if the car would do that and it not require a separate (and expensive) device as the power electronics are surely capable.

One point not often mentioned is that our electricity demand largely physically follows us around with our EV; mostly our appliances at home, when we're commuting, and our devices at work. As our vehicles spend 95% of their time parked up, if plugged into bi-directional compatible chargers they could act as a highly localised virtual grid storage and power station. "Highly localised" as in not requiring or (crucially) waiting for the grid to be reconfigured for economies to be fully electrified. Overbuild solar (with relatively small static battery storage) at home and at work and you get cheap electricity for all and a fast transition with far fewer eye-wateringly expensive peaker plants and massive expensive and slow infrastructure projects. All that is really required is for governments to mandate that the various parties involved make it happen; something as simple as legislating the right of every EV owner to sell power back to the grid. Then the cost of the hardware becomes a non-issue and inverter efficiency increases.

Use our Hyundai Ioniq 5 for V2L at home as its storing our surplus PV

Like Rosie, I also live in Australia, but in the state of Victoria, in which V2G isn't yet legal (as of November 2023). I wrote to my state and federal MPs asking what the plan is, and when I could get it. Two months on - crickets chirp.

@The18107j

6 ай бұрын

It took several years for SAPN to provisionally approve the Quasar. Generic V2G is still not approved in SA yet. Victoria will get there, it just might take a little more time.

Nice to have actual pricing too. But, haven't people ever heard of battery cycle counts? Yes, those are limited, and shuffling the batteries nightly is a real disaster for the battery life. Then again, in development countries (such as Australia seems to be on their sub-standard grid), having emergency power is nice, but that could be also dealt with using a 10 kW gasoline inverter. The separately and externally installed old car batteries could be a better solution to cycle until their death, but car batteries will loose the car value faster than one can say "cat".

@The18107j

6 ай бұрын

A recent study of 15,000 EVs showed that the battery will likely outlive the rest of the car. Battery technology has been improving every year, and the oldest of batteries (e.g. the 2012 Nissan Leaf) degrade much faster than any recently produced batteries. Most of the statistics that show fast degradation of car batteries are taken from these first generation cars, rather than extrapolating from newer car batteries. Batteries degrade over time anyway. I'd rather use a valuable resource that I own, than try to protect it and get minimal value from it.

@PekPiu

6 ай бұрын

@@The18107j Well, the top ev:s in production do still suffer battery cycle issues. And yes, I am talking about the models that retail about 100-150 k€, so not any old and/or low-end models. Again, disused old batteries can be good for a fixed personal energy storage, as its capacity is not too big of a deal. But having a car battery messed up, that does have a much bigger cost into it. I hope one day car batteries could have a much improved cycle counts, in real world, but that really is not yet there, despite what "the new great battery inventions" push at media few times a month.

5:36 and 6:21 -kilowatts kW = power/strength of motor pushing; eg Tesla = 200-600 kW (~1000 Nm (newton metres), 5 Nm is finger tightening a screw) motors. -kilowatt-hours kWh = storage/amount. eg Tesla 75-100 kWh (~400-600 kms). -Can't wait until Tesla has V2G/V2H/V2L to make even more money than the solar feedback tariffs currently do!

Well, for the current cost of the DC-Wallbox one can also opt for much more Home battery which would be my way to go currently. In my opinion, V2G becomes much more tangible when the onboard charger (which is already two way capable at least for the Kia/Hyundai/Ford with V2L and Not much more cost to upgrade as a Car manufacturer) is available to be used for V2H and all you would need to use it (apart of the wallbox itself) is some 500$ measurement/communication backbone. But it also depends a Lot on the prices of Home batteries and Car batteries. When Home batteries come down to lets say 2-300$ per kWh ready to run I think there is Not much need to have V2H capability. Then it would be more of a nice to have. For relatively small Car batteries Like the leaf the additional cycling might also lead to additional wear while with bigger batteries this would come to an nonissue.

@The18107j

6 ай бұрын

For the price of a Wallbox Quasar I can either get a 10kWh home battery, or unlock access to a 50kWh car battery. Considering my unique position of being able to leave the car at home most days, the Quasar was about 5x as valuable to me compared to a house battery. I do think having the charging and discharging circuit in the car is the way to go considering most of the hardware is already there. I'm excited to see what the future holds!

@andreasbayer

6 ай бұрын

@@The18107j thats great to read. Is it really possible to use the whole Car battery for V2G or is it restricted from the Car? And how is this handled with the warranty of the Cars battery? Are there any Limits (Like max. 10-50.000 discharged kWh in V2L/V2H/V2G-Usage)? I've read something like this for the F150 Lightning. If something like that is applicable with the Leaf as well, then a 50 kWh Car battery might just be comparable to a 5-20 kWh Home battery as well.

@The18107j

6 ай бұрын

@@andreasbayer I've used 10-100% so far. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lower limit, but I haven't needed to export that much yet. I don't believe Nissan will void the warranty for using V2G, but I imported the car from Japan, so I wasn't expecting Nissan to honor the warranty anyway.

@andreasbayer

6 ай бұрын

@@The18107j Cool, thanks for the answers. Well, lets hope BiDi-Charging will be Standard in few years!

Tell the wine guy it's kWh with batteries 😊 Nice setup.

Concerns I have is that SA not too long ago was national news for solar feed in dropping to nothing and talks of taxing feed in, so while at the moment it looks ok for a few people I'm not sure this will be quite the same worthwhile longterm home investment as home solar. Charger/Inverter has to connect directly to the battery pack at high voltage which is going to continue to vary in size so costs will stay higher and ideally you want gan for service life but I see no mention of it on any pages I can find so $10k is a mighty price tag. Car battery packs are designed to give massive power and most profit trading energy is short periods but you can only feed about 10kw into the grid and I can see how the home owner does not have any capacity to compete in the market because of that. Also Nissan only covers their 40kwh battery for 100k miles which gives me about 30mwh through, how do they monitor and warranty when used in V2G and whats energy trade prices like? Is there any way lithium cells can be optimized for grid? As in cars are very high current capacity and I would think thats possibly not optimal for cycle life. How do grid scale batteries work and whats the service life and costs of the AC switching vs home scale and whats the costs environmental costs? As I assume by design you have to have some consumables on both sides. Also what about safety and home insurance? I assume is no extra cost now but a few V2G related fires may change that where having that grid scale its away from homes. What insurance covers you in the event there is a lithium fire during V2G? Could be liable for massive amounts and you're profiting of it and that could get real messy.

my big ? for V2G is the cost of increased battery wear. guess if it pays for the car after 5-6 years that wouldn't be a concern at all because at that point it's full paid so the fractional cost is already covered.

A few quesions: What's the current state of battery production and replacement? Wear them out quicker and you have more to mine or recycle. Is the output from the vehicle on that scale consistent across the models, and is there a cutoff so you don't damage the battery's capacitance by going too low? With the greater power supply if this is widely adopted would it theoretically reduce prices for those not using these systems?

@The18107j

6 ай бұрын

The Quasar 1 allows for setting a maximum and minimum state of charge, and the charge and discharge rate is adjustable from 1.4kW to 7.2kW. My car can provide 160kW while driving, but only 7kW for V2G. I don't think V2G will noticeably degrade the battery, but only time will tell. Either way, I'd rather use the battery than leave it sitting idle all day. Batteries degrade over time even without use. If many people export when demand is high, it will reduce the spot price for everyone, even for the people exporting.

I wonder where in California he saw this in action? Napa? I live on an island in the Bay with its own power company- they buy it from Giant Power Corp. But we have a lot of rooftop solar and a LOT of Teslas, and other makers EV's. I wonder if our island might try V2G...

I like the idea of self sufficiency but what about battery lifespan degradation or lack of range for EV as the use of battery for grid applications shortens useful life of battery? Have batts improved enough now that they can better handle frequent charge/discharge required for V2G?

@NeblogaiLT

6 ай бұрын

This depends on specific battery chemistry. For example, current LMFP, and high nickel batteries last 1400-2000 cycles, and will only improve to 2000-3000 cycles by 2030, so will never be ideal for daily discharging. For VtG, you probably want the car battery to last ~5000 cycles, which would allow a daily discharge for ~13,7 years. For that, LFP batteries are becoming popular for cars, and those can already do ~5000 cycles, and are planned to be capable of ~7500 cycles by 2025, and ~10000 by 2030. Also, sodium batteries are entering cheap car market, and those (Ion Layered Oxide variation) should improve from 3000 cycles today to ~5000 by 2030. Then there is PBA variation, which is less energy dense, so better for home batteries and maybe very cheap EVs- those also last 5000 cycles today, with expectations for 8000 cycles by 2025, and 11000 by 2030. (info from 'The Limiting Factor' channel).

@tomas_klouda

6 ай бұрын

@@NeblogaiLT All those cycle numbers look like at least 90% DoD (Depth of Discharge). But every Li-Ion based chemistry can handle a lot more cycles when you reduce the DoD. And I am talking about difference like 90% DoD = 1400 cycles, while 20% DoD = 10000+ cycles. If you combine this fact with the simple reality of the vehicle you would like to use not just for V2G, but also for daily driving, it makes perfect sense to only limit your V2G use to something between 20 and 40% of DoD and then you basically don't care at all as even current chemistry can handle thousands of such cycles without measurable effect on the battery wear. To still get interesting capacity that way, you need a vehicle with larger battery, but we are already closing to 60kWh as the norm and with that we are talking about 10-25kWh of usable capacity for V2G basically for free. That is definitely interesting proposition as it is usually at least as much as you have for PV system so it would at least double or more often triple your energy storage capacity.

@NeblogaiLT

6 ай бұрын

@@tomas_klouda Thinking of it, you are probably right. Most users will probably be limited by their grid connection anyway, and will only be able to offload 20kWh or so during peak hours. Only for daily charging full at night, and selling it all at daytime, LiFePO is needed.

@tomas_klouda

6 ай бұрын

@@NeblogaiLT yep, for high DoD you currently want LFP. But it will still limit the usability of the car for driving. If you usually drive around 20-50km for daily errands with occasional 100km, you can set it to cycle between 50-80% SOC and don't care what state it is in when you would want to hit the road. You will always have enough energy in the battery even for longer trip with a 60+ kWh car battery.

Not with my VW group EV. Manual says don't charge above 80% normally nor let it go below 40% when cold. V2G would be little use to me in winter.

Partial home load. I assume the box cuts the three circuits off from the grid before you plug in???

@EngineeringwithRosie

6 ай бұрын

I believe it is connected in the same way as a backup generator. Would be slightly problematic if connected to the grid especially during a local blackout ⚡

@peteregan3862

6 ай бұрын

Regulators and grid operators are not very helpful - obsessing about their meters, phase control and electricity theft. And we are not a manufacturing nation. We need integrated systems with meters that the grid wires can plug into. Metering should be automatically reported by wi-fi or mobile phone (fire systems use both for automatic alarms). We need integrated systems to reduce cost and not leave a wall of ugly boxes. We have lots of separate systems due to regulatory standards and processes. A manufacturer should be able to produce a certified integrated system to which grid wires, solar panel wires, batteries, generators, and vehicles can be plugged into and all the functions are safely managed and trading electricity with the grid reported. An issue with the grid going out with batteries connected to it is neighbours also being supplied with electricity when they don't expect it.

I have been aware of this availability in SA for a year or two. I have 2 questions. 1. What vehicles currently on sale in Australia can do this (Nissan's Leaf is/was one) and 2. Is it possible in NSW. TIA

@The18107j

6 ай бұрын

While the Nissan Leaf (BEV) and Mitsubishi Outlander (PHEV) are both technically capable of V2G, there are no V2G chargers available. The Quasar 1 has been discontinued, and the Quasar 2 has not yet been released. When the next generation of chargers are released, it's likely that all of them will be CCS only, meaning the Leaf and Outlander will not be compatible. The Kia EV9 and Cupra Born have been announced as V2G compatible. Many other cars have the hardware, but are waiting for chargers to be released before announcing V2G compatibility. SA conditionally approved the Quasar 1 before a general V2G approval. I expect all states to have a general V2G charger approval in the next few years.

@johnhedge1429

6 ай бұрын

Hasten slowly drives me nuts. I want it now.@@The18107j

If you charge during the day, discharge during evening and night do you drive your ICE to work or do you go??? Isn't it way better ( and cheaper) to buy batteries instead of buyng ev to use it as a battery???

With the demise of the Wallbox Quasar 1, are there any other ChaDeMo V2G chargers available? I bought a second Nissan Leaf as it is V2G capable, and was waiting on wider availability and regulators to approve V2G chargers else where other than South Australia. I understand Wallbox wanting to move on and develop the Quasar 2, but as the Quasar 1 to my knowledge the only V2G charger approved anywhere in Australia, to me they have done themselves out many sales of the Quasar 1.

@The18107j

6 ай бұрын

The Quasar 2 will release initially with CCS only, and may (unconfirmed) have a CHAdeMO version released a year or 2 later. I'm not aware of any V2G chargers in development with planned CHAdeMO support. I'm still frustrated that Nissan is advertising the Leaf as "the only V2G compatible EV". It's a technically true statement that implies the opposite of what is actually happening.

@paulrgab

6 ай бұрын

@@The18107j I’m aware that others cars have V2G but nothing beats the price of a second hand Leaf.

Your car is parked more often in your driveway than on the road. V2g should be standard. Tesla i believe said nope to v2g/v2h

You would think that governments would be promoting the V2 system as a way to delay needing to upgrade/build infrastructure but, I guess the real energy bosses feel their old ways still rule.

And then Wallbox rips the heart out of every LEAF owner by discontinuing the Quasar1 and not supporting Chademo any more. If you haven’t yet got one, it’s impossible to get one now. Also what is HOEM’s website? And can they sell outside SA? Can’t find any info about their product.

Rosie, I hope the next time you do it post on V2G, you'll include battery swapping as an alternative means to do electricity arbitrage. V2G is a fascinating concept, so thank you for the post. But when you factor in the high initial cost and that most people commute to work..... Which is when demand exceeds supply... So a home V2G asset is not that useful, for most homeowners.... Australia is the ideal market for V2G, but mostly for home businesses..... Like the ones in this post... When battery swapping becomes a more widespread option, it will be a far more practical way of doing electricity arbitrage... To timeshift high demand periods with high supply periods.... IMHO...

Would v2g work for re c recreational vehicles (RV , caravans)‽ do they provide 12v 120v or 220v?

@UCCLdIk6R5ECGtaGm7oqO-TQ

6 ай бұрын

It could provide whatever you want with the appropriate inverter.

@The18107j

6 ай бұрын

V2L would work best for that situation. V2L provides power directly to a device (e.g. a caravan), while V2G requires a grid connection to function. I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing cars capable of both in the next few years.

Australian dollars I assume? Which is 70% of US dollar. Sounded a bit pricey at first before I realized 🙂 If the system doesn't allow you to power your home when the power has gone out you have removed a major selling point... hope that limitation goes away quickly. Does any system allow for a direct DC connection between home battery and vehicle battery or is it always done via AC?

@The18107j

6 ай бұрын

All figures are in AUD. I suspect the power outage limitation is only in the first generation product, and is a major part of why Wallbox decided to discontinue the Quasar in favour of developing the Quasar 2. I'm not aware of any commercial products that can connect the car by DC only. I believe Dala (and his Patreon group) have been working on a way to use a solar inverter to take DC power from a second life Nissan Leaf battery. It might be theoretically possible to do this while the battery is in the car, but it doesn't have the same safety or features of a proper V2G charger, and still connects to the house (and anything else) using AC.

A power grid company thinking out of the box could eventually see a business advantage from providing V2G hardware to EV owners for free…

is there a negative effect of power cycling the battery daily?

@NeblogaiLT

6 ай бұрын

Depends on a battery chemistry. LMFP and High Nickel batteries would not last, but new LFPs and sodiums should be just fine (even more so with improvements, that are expected to come to LFP/sodium resilience in 2025-2030).

Problem is: Quasar is extremely expensive. The gov needs to promote R&D and rollout local made V2G products