Your examples from popular culture are so useful in bringing these concepts alive. I use many of your lectures to pull together ideas to teach to my (humanistic) trainee counsellors, thank you very much for such a rich source of material. Also, having been in a significant relationship with a beautiful narcissist many years ago, for me, Withers speaks of an intimate adult relationship which is a repetition compulsion. The dark excitement, distorted containment and irresistible lure of the malignant maternal object.

@doncarveth

Жыл бұрын

Thank you. Very well put interpretation of withers song

this is exactly the way i feel it for myself. i used to call it a nietzschean variation of masochism.

The Dead Mother Complex by Andre Green describes this type of destructive narcissism and attachment disorders.

@doncarveth

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, but emotional deadness is a wider phenomenon then what green addresses

@sabiaknows

2 жыл бұрын

@@doncarveth Thanks for making this distinction, in Green's Dead Mother Complex, as I see it, there's no emotion in mourning the love object . It's as if the emotion potential was "still born" or retarded during anaclisis. As you frane emotional death, I can imagine a very deep and profound mourning process...an abyss.

The problem is that I am at a very important time in my job, and in a very short time I will be fulfilling my dream, but I suddenly felt lethargic and lazy a week ago, although I had been at a very reassuring stage of study and completed a lot of study in a short and wonderful time... And from there I felt a lethargy. I am very sad and want to change the situation, but I cannot.... I don't know why either. I'm wasting my time, but I'm not happy, I'm really hurt inside and I cry especially that this work I'm about to get, which will soon be completed, will determine my college and my future studies. Knowing that if this is the study or the goal of another person, especially a girl, I will accomplish and do my best to make her happy, and to see acceptance and satisfaction in her eyes is enough for me and makes us internally satisfied because I helped her achieve her dream... As for me, I don't know why I lathered after I had done so much work, whereas compared to this girl, I did my best to please her... I see myself as good at work, but for other people, especially girls. Do I suffer from masochism? I, too, have most of the other masochistic properties.

@doncarveth

Жыл бұрын

I don’t know about masochism, but it seems you may suffer from an unconscious fear of success. Read Freud’s essay “on some character types met with in the course of psychoanalytic work.”

@user-er3zn1mz2z

Жыл бұрын

@@doncarveth I help others succeed, not myself !!... thank you sir

Hello prof. Carveth Thank you so much for your generous videos. You are explaining such deep and complex topics in such bright and interesting way. It’s absolutely pleasure listening to you. I wanted to ask if you can make videos about Freud papers like “beyond the pleasure principle” and “instincts and their vicissitude” and actually every other classic paper. It will be such a blest Thank you again and all the best!

@doncarveth

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you Michael. If I had the time and the energy I would love to do that.

I would say that there is no need for intermittent reinforcement, as it's the repetition of the internal object relation of chasing the alluring but frustrating object. What seems like reinforcement i would see more as the Freuds "fort/da " game. That it simply reinforces the omnipotent fantasy of being in control of the object. That this is the basis for these type of on/off relationships. You need to push the person away to then make them reappear to feel that you are in omnipotent control of the object. I also think in these two songs, the relationships are totally different. Even considering how Bill Withers first marriage had domestic abuse in it. David Celani has a book "The Illusion of Love" that explains abusive relationships through Fairbairns theory. And if you listen to the lyrics, it kinda explain exactly the type of relationship. The friends who are trying to tell him. Just like all the battered women, who return to their batterers. While everyone tries to tell them that its not something they should do. But they are in the grasp of their overly optimistic split off hopeful self (libidinal self). As the antilibidinal self is split off, the bad experiences are not present . Their partner shares the same split off dynamic, and the batteries happen in the antilibidinal state. This is a song exactly about this type of relationship, that Celani talks about in his book.

I listened to this, again. And I think that it’s a very subtle point you are making. I think that what you are saying is that we can be masochistic when it looks like we aren’t being masochistic. We would know if we were also feeling some rage…

@doncarveth

2 жыл бұрын

Actually, my point is that what looks masochistic on the surface may not be masochistic at all, in that the apparent masochist is getting richly rewarded

@JoshBarzell

2 жыл бұрын

@@doncarveth if we look at psychopathy or sociopathy, and the sadism inherently involved in that, we should also be able to find a masochism. Is this what makes people attracted to severe mental illness-like psychopathy?

@doncarveth

2 жыл бұрын

@@JoshBarzell Psychopaths bring trouble upon themselves. People are attracted to mentally ill others for a range of reasons. Often, it feels like home.

@JoshBarzell

2 жыл бұрын

@@doncarveth I feel like it would be a difficult trap to get out of, that of a relatively innocent person being trapped by a malignant narcissist, say. I would imagine the innocent partner having to analyze his or her spouse, father, or friend; and not being able to get anywhere, even if he or she was analytical. Something tells me that it’s not a hopeless situation - even, as it is…

This perspective of intermittend reinforcement then seems to speak More about positive or loving affections than about reparative mature love. Or can one say maybe about PS love with this inherent intermittend splitting? Is it then not legitimate to say, that through building up an inner object with this form of love is a confusion about what love at another level can be, when it is also on D and not merely on PS?

Good evening Mister! I have been following your channel for a period of time already and I was wondering if the topic of PTSD is of any interest. If it is, I would be more than grateful to hear some opinions/ insights! Thank you! All due respect, Lorena

@doncarveth

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you, I will think about it.

When I first heard this song, I thought to myself: “Well, that’s unfortunate if that’s the case.” But, later I realized that it might not be that bad to start from there.

@doncarveth

2 жыл бұрын

Or even to end up there

Thank you for your videos! Always. I am wondering what will happen when this kind of interaction isn't mutual or reciprocal. Woundn't they choose each other as their partner?

@doncarveth

2 жыл бұрын

Not sure I understand your question. Can you clarify?

@yspark8857

2 жыл бұрын

@@doncarveth Mature love feels to me that it should include mutual sharing of their thoughts and feelings between the partners. Like in "being alive", if a partner wants to get used up and feels good about it, what can the other partner do for the relationship? It feels one way love. In Berliner's paper and your thoughts about that, I thought that the idea of the cold object and intermittent very little love from the object could explain some masochistic people's behavior well. I wondered how it is an exaggerated comment about masochism. I may not understand your ideas well. Thank you for giving me the chance to try to clarify my thoughts.

@doncarveth

2 жыл бұрын

@@yspark8857 The bill withers song “use me“ and the line about “someone to use me“ in the Sondheim song indicate that a mature relationship involves being used. But it also involves using. If it is entirely or mostly one way only, then it qualifies as masochistic. In health there will be mutual using to varying degrees. Sometimes to an outsider the relationship may look very masochistic but, as Bill Withers points out, this may be more appearance than reality, for in reality the seeming masochist may be getting great reward.

@yspark8857

2 жыл бұрын

@@doncarveth Thank you!

The "intermittent reinforcement" theory of masochism: any good writings on this? Thanks.

@doncarveth

2 жыл бұрын

Not that I am aware of. The idea was suggested by a very wise friend in a conversation with me after viewing my video on Berliner.

Woody Allen Tells us call although his brother-in-law thinks he is a chicken, he keeps him around anyway because “he needs the eggs.”

Hi Prof Carveth, I’m a British Psychoanalyst and I’ve just discovered your work. I was interested in your thoughts about Freud’s notion of the Death Drive…you say you aren’t sure about it. What I get from it is the two basic biological principles of Combining Substances together - Libido, and the pulling of substances apart - Thanatos. As Freud said We owe nature a Death. I think it’s a Principle (as in Beyond the Pleasure Principle) rather than a drive exactly but there certainly seems to be a Force that seeks to ‘conduct the restlessness of life into the inorganic state’ - it’s also seen in post Kleinian thinking in Bion’s Attacks on Linking and in Fairbairns Anti Libidinal Ego.

@doncarveth

Жыл бұрын

We need to be very careful with our concepts. Freud clearly defined the drive: it has an aim, an object, a pressure and a somatic source. By this definition few if any drives exist, let alone a death drive. We are not free to redefine the meaning of central Freudian concepts as we wish and yet claim to be following Freud. Read Freud carefully. When he set forth the idea of the death drive in 1920 he made it clear that it was not an aggressive drive or a human destructiveness. The latter were outwardly deflected death drive. Death drive was primary masochism, not aggression or sadism.Unfortunately there is a great deal of poor scholarship in psychoanalysis.

@davidnjohn

Жыл бұрын

@@doncarveth Thanks that’s helpful, but I guess the Drive theory originates with the Three Essays and later in Beyond the Pleasure Principle he is certainly referring to something that exists that seems to act against the combining of substances in the Primal Soup. So chains of molecules link but then unlink. In Kleinian theory this unlinking seems to have a purchase and a concept of the Death Instinct when used by Rosenfeld for example is certainly seen as acting against health and life. If not an instinct then what shall we call it? And how do I correct my Kleinian colleagues 😉? PS adore the Sondheim , thanks for drawing attention to it. You have certainly inspired me to read and listen more carefully. 🙏🏻

@doncarveth

Жыл бұрын

@@davidnjohn read Rosenfeld’s “the death instinct in clinical practice.“ On the first page, he says he has found some thing that “resembles“ Floyd’s death instinct over the years in clinical practice. He is simply referring to destructiveness. He has the scholarly integrity to not call this, the death instinct, but only something “resembling“ the death instinct. Would there was more scholarship displaying that kind of integrity. Draw this essay to the attention of your cleaning call leagues.

@davidnjohn

Жыл бұрын

@@doncarveth Excellent, thank you so much. I’m now thinking about Klein’s notion of Envy as a Primary aspect of the, can I say Drive, towards the Breast. I think it was Rosenfeld who said that Klein’s candidates at the Institute, once she he had evolved her theory of Envy, all had to do another five years of Analysis.

I came across this video recently again and wondered about what exactly the quote in the beginning from Adorno means. "In psychoanalysis nothing is true except the exaggerations". My try to make sense of this is to translate it like "one can not find all-true statements with the psychoanalytic approach, but only falsify statements by their quality of exaggeration". While this seems to fit into the context of this video, it still doesnt make much sense to me as a statement about psychoanalysis in general. Also the statement itself is an exaggeration. So is it meant as some kind of koan-like joke?

@doncarveth

Жыл бұрын

Yes

It makes me wonder.. wouldn’t being ignored or “still faced” be more painful than being used? Isn’t being treated indifferently more painful and thus more masochistically gratifying than being engaged with at all? Is that sort of what you’re pointing out?

@doncarveth

2 жыл бұрын

Being ignored might be more painful, but that would only be more masochistically gratifying if masochism meant gratification through pain. I don’t think the masochist is gratified by pain. He feels he deserves it but that doesn’t make pain gratifying only necessary.

@honoryourself2098

2 жыл бұрын

thanks for elaborating, it’s a fascinating topic

Thank you. Why are you “no fan of Theodor Adorno”?

@doncarveth

2 жыл бұрын

Because of his malicious u and misrepresentation of the contributions of Erich Fromm