Upgrading my Travel Trailer's Charger/Converter for Lithium Batteries
Фильм және анимация
In this video, I cover how to upgrade the existing Charger/Converter in my trailer so that I can properly use and take full advantage of Lithium Batteries.
Timestamps:
Warning: 00:30
Intro: 00:50
Prep: 02:25
Remove Old: 05:40
Install New: 10:35
Fix Broken Braker: 21:15
Install Fuses: 22:05
Testing: 23:15
I bought my Forest River IBEX 23RLDS under the impression that it a was Lithium Ready travel trailer. While the solar was ready, the onboard charger was not.
The Power Distribution Center in my IBEX was a WF-8955PEC and is NOT Lithium Battery Compatible. The WF-8955PEC's charging system is designed explicitly for lead-acid (Flooded/AGM) batteries. The WF-8955LiS is the model that was supposed to be installed for the IBEX to be "Lithium Ready."
The WF-8955LiS has a switch option, allowing one to change charging modes between lead-acid and lithium batteries by simply sliding a switch in one direction or the other.
WF-8955LiS on Amazon: amzn.to/3gceevA
The short version (confirmed by Forest River's Engineer as I understand them):
1. The PEC will not fully charge Lithium batteries; he stated "95% or so." We all know that a Lead-Acid algorithm will only get the LiPo to 70-80% in most cases.
2. The PEC is not going to properly Float the battery (as stated, "it's close").
3. The PEC will not output the required 14.6v for "Fast Bulk" charging of Lithium. The Lead-Acid algorithm does not have a Fast Charge state.
4. Improperly charging a lithium battery will severely shorten its lifespan.
5. Lithium Battery warranties don't cover improper charging. Many specifically state that a "Lithium Charger must be used."
The PEC is designed and sold as a Lead-Acid Charger, and by that definition alone, disqualifies the PEC as a Lithium Ready Charger and disqualifies the IBEX 23RLDS as a Lithium Ready Travel Trailer. While the PEC may safely "charge" Lithium batteries (somewhat), as stated on WFCO's website, the PEC is not designed for Lithium Charging and by Forest River's own engineer's statements, does present quite a few shortcomings for Lithium use.
The Nuts & Bolts:
A 12v lithium LiFePO4 battery fully charged to 100% will hold voltage around 13.3-13.4v. A lead-acid battery will be around 12.6-12.7v. A lithium battery at 20% capacity will hold voltage around 13V; lead-acid will be around 11.8v at the same capacity.
A Lithium LiFePO4 charger is a voltage-limiting device that has similarities to the lead-acid system. The differences with Li-ion relate to the higher voltage per cell, tighter voltage tolerances, and the absence of trickle or float charge at full charge. While lead-acid offers some flexibility in terms of voltage cut-off, manufacturers of LiFePO4 cells are stringent on the correct setting because Li-ion cannot accept overcharge.
Lithium chargers are based on a CV/CC (constant voltage/constant current) charge algorithm. The charger limits the amount of current to a pre-set level until the battery reaches a pre-set voltage level. The current then reduces as the battery becomes fully charged. This system allows fast charging without the risk of over-charging and is required for all Li-ion batteries.
Most, if not all, lead-acid chargers have an equalization mode. On most chargers, this mode is automatic and can't be turned off. Lithium batteries do not require any form of equalization. Applying an equalization charge of 15v+ to a lithium battery will damage the cells beyond repair.
The other function that lead-acid chargers have is a "return to bulk" voltage. A 100% full lead-acid battery's voltage is approx 12.7v. Once the charger is in Float mode, it will maintain the battery at a pre-set voltage (normally between 13.3-13.8v subject to the battery type) and supports any loads running at the time. If the loads increase past the charger's maximum output in Float, then the battery voltage will start to reduce. Once the voltage reaches the "return to bulk" voltage, the charger will begin a new charge cycle and re-charge the battery at Bulk Voltage rates.
The "return to bulk" voltage setting in lead-acid chargers is normally 12.5-12.7v. This voltage for a lithium battery is way too low. At this voltage, the lithium battery will have been depleted to approx 10-15% state of charge. Lithium charge algorithms will normally set a return to Bulk voltage of 13.1-13.2V. Just another reason that a standard lead-acid charger doesn't work for lithium batteries.
Most lead-acid chargers "ping" the battery on startup to determine the voltage/resistance of the battery. Based on return information, the charger then determines what charge phase to start in. Because Lithium will hold voltage above 13+v, these lead-acid chargers will see this as a nearly full battery and enter into a Float stage and bypass the charge stage altogether.
Disclaimer: Everything in this video and description is my own interpretations and opinions based on the information I have gathered online, through email, and by phone.
Пікірлер: 31
This is great! This is exactly what I need to do and I have the same panel. Thanks for putting this out there... much appreciated and much help!
Thanks for the video,thanks for your comments on how the charger works ,I have an rv that I am going to convert to lithium batteries and add solar as well as an inverter ,also it should be said that you need a dc to dc charger install to protect your vehicle alternator if you are switching to a lithium battery bank.
Thank you for this video, just what I needed!
Great video. Exactly what I needed.
Thanks for a great video! I had to do the exact same swap and it was very helpful.
The warning is hilarious!
You really should have a disconnect on the input from your solar panels.
Thanks for the video, as I am in the exact same situation! Searching for a source for the 8955-LIS model (can't find it on Amazon...), I found it is being replaced by the WFCO 8955-AD, their new Lithium/LA auto-detect version. Do you have any idea if the converter and board from the AD version can be swapped with the 8955-PEC? Thanks in advance!
So what was the final story on the mystery pigtail on the AC side?
Exactly the video I was looking for. Especially impressed by your ability not to swear (aloud anyway :) when things like the breaker not sliding in smoothly happen :) However, I can't seem to find a source for this. The amazon link says currently unavailable, not sure if it will be back in stock. I found one source for just the converter/charger itself, but doesn't include the circuit board, so I'm not sure how to enable the switch between AGM and Li. Anyone else found this elsewhere?
@ChrisSgaraglino
2 жыл бұрын
You are correct it seems like there’s a surplus of PEC systems out there and zero LIS, which leads me to believe that everybody is switching switching over and there’s just not that many left. One of the things that I learned while doing my homework while speaking with WFCO directly was that they’re coming out with an automated switch version very similar to the LIS but instead of a manual switch it’ll do it automatically. My understand it was gonna be ready sometime late spring early summer for dealers to test, and that may be the reason why the LIS is not available anywhere. I’ll email my contact, and see if I can get some intel of what’s coming down the road.
Thanks for the video! Did you ever find out what the pigtail wire was for or did I miss that?
Can you share the link to the 8900 Series you purchased. I am not finding it on Amazon. Thanks
@ChrisSgaraglino
Жыл бұрын
It’s actually the 8955LIS as I put in the description. But here is the link. amzn.to/3KGdZaX
Hi. What is the reason for not swapping out the whole unit. I have this same situation right now.
@ChrisSgaraglino
2 жыл бұрын
The “box/case” is mounted and framed into the trailer. While it can be swapped, the LiS had the exact case so it was much simpler to replace the guts.
My research indicates that the WF-8955PEC has a bulk charge of 14.4 volt and the SOK lithium battery representative assured me that the WF-8955PEC is ideal for the SOK 206 ah lithium battery. Many people, (videos) claim that the lithium batteries will have a longer life span when charged to only 70 to 80 %. If I'm missing something please inform me. TKS.
@ChrisSgaraglino
2 жыл бұрын
There is far more to charging a Lithium than just the Bulk Charge Voltage. The actual algorithm is very different. The charger's algorithm is monitoring the SOC and will make "decisions" based on that plus many other attributes before deciding what/how it's going to charge the battery. The PEC has a Lead-Acid algorithm and will treat your Lithium as such which will lead to damage over time. Remember that the LA 100% SOC is much lower than Lithium (about 80%) and at minimum, the LA algorithm will "teach" your lithium that 100% SOC is actually 20% less. Please understand, I spoke with the engineer at WFCO directly who confirmed that statement.
@nehpetsrellek2750
2 жыл бұрын
@@ChrisSgaraglino TKS, Chris I'll continue my research.
You want the WF-8955-AD-MBA (AD for Auto Detect) is what you need to upgrade your WF-8955PEC to properly charge Lithium batteries. You only have to change 5 wires, not rewire a whole new board. Not really any cheaper, just less work.
@sparkplug3128
9 ай бұрын
For the auto detect to read lithium the batteries have to be discharged this can be a headache. With the lis switch no discharge of batteries is required
@sparkplug3128
9 ай бұрын
Seriously who want to discharge there batteries almost completely for AD to read lithium it takes forever to discharge
I have a sign on my toolbox- do not disturb
Great to upgrade charger but untrue statement about voiding battery warranty. A lead acid charger will charge lithium but more slowly, not taking advantage of lithium battery fast charge capability. It will not over charge the battery either or damage the battery. Even equalizing the battery while raising the charge voltage will not exceed limits for lithium.
@ChrisSgaraglino
3 жыл бұрын
I have spoken to several suppliers of Lithium and they all said, charging with a "Non-Lithium Charger" will void their warranty. My lithium even has on their website and in their documentation.
@marcsobel5898
3 жыл бұрын
@@ChrisSgaraglino Battleborn amd Dakota Lithium batteries have no such statement about the charger. A lead Acid charger will not hurt a lithium battery.
@ChrisSgaraglino
3 жыл бұрын
@@marcsobel5898 Battle Born was one of the suppliers I contacted that they confirmed that damage can come in two places. 1. If the Lead-Acid charger has an equalization mode as the EM process can damage the cells because they have a completely different equalization process. 2. Because of the 3 mode process and the Lead-Acid algorithm, a LA Charger can seriously shorten the number of charge cycles a Lithium can have. Their exact statement was "Using a LA/AGM charge on Lithium will cause the cells to be unbalanced and degrade the life of the battery". Now I asked about the warranty, and he said that in “some cases”, they would do a "courtesy" exchange once, but that's only in some limited cases.
@marcsobel5898
3 жыл бұрын
@@ChrisSgaraglino Again your not truthful. The numbers don't lie. Equalization is just a term for raising the voltage for a time and that voltage is within acceptable charge limits for lithium. While lead acid needs a longer absorb charge lIthium does not and since the voltage is within the profile need by the lithium it will work, the only affect is a slower charge at the end. If Battleborn truly believed a lead acid battery charger would damage the battery then why is it not in the warranty policy. Note: A lithium battery should not be kept at or stored fully charged so even if you believe for a moment a Lead acid charge is incapable of fully recharging the battery then the battery will last longer. Also DC-DC chargers are used to limit charge current in vehicles to protect that alternator, note again the alternator puts out about 13.8 to 14.1 volts. If this voltage was too low then there would be no need for such a device.
@ChrisSgaraglino
3 жыл бұрын
@@marcsobel5898 dude, you re arguing with the wrong person, I’m just relaying what the Lithium companies stated!
Talk about a video that is way too long.....
@ChrisSgaraglino
5 күн бұрын
@@freelyroaming oh, I just got it. I commented on your video, and your response is to retaliate by using the same comment on my. Sorry, I didn’t know we were in kindergarten!