George MacDonald preached hell hot but temporary.

It sounds like Universalism teaches there is no "eternal" hell, but there is a Heaven and a Purgatory.

@squiddwizzard8850

7 ай бұрын

It depends. There's a universalist idea that there is no purgatory (all are saved immediately). The view being presented here is purgatorial universalism (all are saved, eventually) (or a common variant, all are in the glory of God immediately and that our sins burn off and that process is painful -- it's less a punishment and more like being in a light that is too bright. Eventually your eyes adjust)

@CTomCooper

2 ай бұрын

@@squiddwizzard8850I’d have to say I’m of the latter mindset there. I tend to think that while many Christians who hold to the ECT doctrine end up taking passages about rebuke and paying the penalty for sins to an extreme, their observation in pointing out sinful deeds isn’t itself wrong or in error. So that observation and acknowledgment of not only sin but the burden that exists in carrying it shouldn’t be dismissed. Though, a dismissiveness towards living in sin or the reluctance to address sin and confusing that attitude for patience when it is apathy I think ends up being a flaw in progressive circles of christendom. Universal reconciliation has nothing to do with that. The salvation of all isn’t an obstacle for Christ. Where believers ought to exercise their will where it does count is in abiding with the indwelling Spirit to gradually mature in faith, since what God is after in this age are matured believers who are overcomers. Overcomers who will co-rule or co-minister with Christ to guide the formerly lost and repentant are necessary to turn the age.

@squiddwizzard8850

2 ай бұрын

@@CTomCooper yeah, I tend towards Universalist thought generally but it...feels icky in some places. Like, under Universalism people outside the Christian faith get to experience Heaven. I think that's great. But also.. Nazis go to heaven under Universalism. Abusers go to heaven. Serial killers go to heaven. Rapists go to heaven. And so do their victims. I mean, seriously think about what it'd be like to be someone who died in the Holocaust and you're in Heaven and.. eventually Hitler is there (probably after millions and millions of years). Is it then that this person is capable of forgiving Hitler? That feels icky and bad. We shouldn't form theological opinions from feelings like that but it does produce some troubling philosophical ideas.

@pt7930

20 күн бұрын

@@squiddwizzard8850 For me personally, what helps me to deal with that is to see that the Hitler we knew here won’t be the same person that’ll be in Heaven later. Since I hold to a Purgatorial form of Universalism, I think the person we knew on Earth will be utterly destroyed. The sinful persona (I.e. the old man) isn’t the true person (I.e new creation) who God made us to be; hence why it gets burned away. That’s how I think of it

@squiddwizzard8850

20 күн бұрын

@@pt7930 I'd like to believe that. I try to see the best in people. But some people make that very hard.

Precisely. Christian universalism doesn´t mean you never preach on hell. If anything, depending on the circumstances, we should preach on it more often since we have correct a understanding of the doctrine and stop sweeping the doctrine under the rug like my denomination (Pentacostalism) often does.

This is actually well stated. Too many in universalism believe in this rose colored waltzing into Heaven merely because Jesus reconciled all. That is hardly the case. From my study of NDEs I can tell you that is not the case. It is not God the Father torturing anyone. It is a purgation of sin encrusted on our heart by the holy fire of the Father. It will not be a pleasant experience because it is a detox of evil that has infected our spiritual heart.

@bradensmith5969

2 жыл бұрын

I disagree this video is well-stated. This video is basically reflecting (even though unintentionally) the hateful, unpeaceful ways of typical Christendom to try to induce people to be good by fear of punishment (whatever is meant by the horrible word "hell") and loading people with unnecessary guilt. While I agree it is essential to speak against evil and cruelty in the world, the way this video is titled is completely misleading. In the mind of virtually any layperson on the street, "hell" refers to a place of infinite torture in literal fire. As Christian universalists, we should reject that disgusting and evil view of God's judgments and strive to encourage people to be righteous for the sake and joy of righteousness alone - to be loving, good, and holy as God is. While a reasonable amount of healthy godly sorrow for sin is good, I disagree people should be induced to feel horribly guilty for their past, but I believe they should instead be encouraged to move on from their past and amend themselves through God's power alone. We can do nothing of ourselves without God's power emboldening us. I am totally put off by the title and spirit of this video.

@bradensmith5969

2 жыл бұрын

I also understand this person did not mean "hell" in the traditional sense of infinite torture, but I honestly give this video a 2/10. We speak against hell as Christian universalists. We speak against retributive and unrestorative justice as Christian universalists. The word "hell" does not mean any kind of positive purgation process in today's culture. And, honestly, physical torture is simply a crime against humanity that is committed by extremely mentally ill individuals. And emotional torture that people put themselves through is a disease to be healed, not a form of "purgation." Why should we advocate for torture in any form when torture is always either a crime or a sickness? Sin is a sickness to be healed - not a crime to be vengefully and retributively punished - in my humble opinion.

@christianuniversalist

2 жыл бұрын

@@bradensmith5969 nobody here is suggesting to stay in guilt if one has repented, in fact it’s Quite the opposite. It appears this video was not made for the lay person, but for those familiar already with the ideas within UR

@bradensmith5969

2 жыл бұрын

@@christianuniversalist I understand that, brother. But the way this video was presented did not make any of this clear, and it would be totally misunderstood by the average layperson. That is my beef with it.

@christianuniversalist

2 жыл бұрын

@@bradensmith5969 I think you are confusing concepts here. God does not judge, he corrects. Why? He corrects so that our heart may be transformed into the glorious child He created us to be. Hades is not a realm of sadistic torture or vindictive judgment, it is a place some may go to see the inner state of their hearts, sometimes change of heart will only happen when one sees clearly the rotten fruit it produces. Thomas Allin staid it best: “And this brings us face to face with a blunder of our traditional creed, which is radical. It talks of God's love as though that stood merely on a par with His justice though it were something belonging to Him which He puts on or off. It is hardly possible to open a religious book in which this fatal error is not found; fatal, because it virtually strikes out of the Gospel its fundamental truth, that GOD IS LOVE. The terms are equivalent. They can be interchanged. God is not anger though He can be angry, God is not vengeance though He does avenge. These are attributes, love is essence. Therefore, God is unchangeably love. Therefore, in judgment He is love, in wrath He is love, in vengeance He is love-" love first, and last, and midst, and without end.”

Please respond! Where can we listen to Robert Hart more? Where are these videos coming from? Does he have his own channel?!Does he have a podcast? Thanks!

@LoveUnrelenting

Жыл бұрын

Hi! As far as I know, he doesn't have his own channel or podcast, but he does do most of the sermons for St. Benedict's Anglican Church (since he's the rector there) youtube.com/@StBenedictsAnglican The videos of him on this channel are simply coming from an interview I did with him over Zoom. He was also on the "Grace Saves All" podcast, so you can hear more from him over there 😎

I am pretty right-leaning. If anything in Christianity is true, surely it would be that God's redemptive power is indestructible. It also makes sense that there would be a hell or something like hell, that some if not all of us may still need to experience TEMPORARILY and FOR OUR OWN GOOD. ie, We actually need SOME pain and suffering in order to build character. I'm not convinced that physical death would necessarily change any of this, if we do indeed live forever.

@benc6537

Жыл бұрын

The hound of heaven never misses.

@Numinon

5 ай бұрын

Leftie here who never thought he'd agree with somebody on the right. Which is atually so cool. I don't know what to think about building character but I agree in the belief that hell is a miserable but temporary place that ultimately serves a corrective purpose.

@CTomCooper

2 ай бұрын

@@Numinon I also have the same impression. The Gospel of Christ being All in all when it’s fully embraced can set aside differences between people as very secondary matters of opinion. I’m probably within the bounds of culture more right-leaning myself due to my upbringing. But I’d probably have to say that I’m a voluntaryist in regard to philosophical thought. As long as people can come into an agreement with others without using the initiation of violence or the threat of force on others to have whatever it is that they’d prefer, then I would personally see no real issue nor have any concern over how people would end up cooperating. Even if that agreement is just acknowledging non-aggression, I’d still say that’s something good. I believe that’s consistent with the commandment of loving your neighbor as yourself.

Are sins that are repented of and forgiven punished in the Universalist view?

@doriesse824

Ай бұрын

No, Christ took our punishment, and those who have repented and expressed their faith in His finished work, do not suffer punishment. However, the Bible says "Every one will be salted with fire, and every one's work will be salted with salt." Matt 9:49. It is part of the purification process for entering the Kingdom of Heaven.

I'm a tad confused and somewhat surprised to see the Hart brothers represent hell (not upper-case as in the video title) as something that potentially exists, without more clearly explaining how it's a translation error. Anyone else understand what I'm saying? Thoughts?

@bradensmith5969

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly! Hell, as a place of eternal torment or annihilation with literal fire, does NOT exist and is a total misrepresentation of God's character. While I can agree warning people about the temporal consequences of sins is important, I found this video totally out of character for this channel, and this man did not express himself clearly at all.

@jasonegeland1446

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed, although usually they are more on point. I think they understand but don't always fill us in the way we expect, maybe. I'll give them the benefit of doubt this time.

@amhcrane87

2 жыл бұрын

They’re three different people

@Baa975

2 жыл бұрын

@@bradensmith5969 What about what we read in Revelation? Or do we not regard Revelation?

@bradensmith5969

2 жыл бұрын

@@Baa975 The book of Revelation when rightly understood as highly figurative and symbolic does not teach permanent annihilation or a neverending hell. I am not going to debate this subject with you. If you disagree with the beautiful teaching that God is an omnipotent God with the power and desire and will to save the entire cosmos from sin and death, and that He will put a complete end to darkness, bringing salvation to all who exist, then you can find a million other places online to agree with your horrible and dark theology. I ain't going there.

I'm trying to correlate the wealthy doctor and the desperate woman to the doctrine of hell. Moreover, I wouldn't use the word hell at all because the very definition of the word hell is endless torment. Anything other than everlasting suffering is something other than hell.

Who are the universalists who don’t take hell seriously? Not Talbott, not DBH, not Parry, and I don’t even think Reitan and Kronen

@storba3860

Жыл бұрын

Oprah and the Unitarians sadly. They're usually the people who come to mind when people say they're Universalist.

Is this David Bentley Hart’s relative?

@christophersnedeker

Жыл бұрын

I think it's his brother.

Finally a Universalist who doesn’t go on with the fluffy clouds and rainbow theology of instant universal salvation. One of my biggest problems with Universalists especially in the modern day is the idea of No hell whatsoever. As if sins and crimes going unpunished is not abhorrent. I’m sure there are plenty of people harmed by the sins of others who cry out for justice from God and God even says vengeance belongs to him. The pain caused by sins must be payed for by some form of suffering either in this life or the next and though I did not believe that punishment will be eternal I do believe it will come and it will be just and all debts against God and the innocent will be payed.

@christophersnedeker2065

Жыл бұрын

You read George MacDonald?

@bluemastermage4874

Жыл бұрын

@@christophersnedeker2065 I said modern universalist. I know that previous generations of universalists preached Hell and punishment like George. But it’s the universalists of today that seem to skip over the purging fire part of universalism.

@Some_Deist

Жыл бұрын

Do you believe the punishment of hell is literal ?

@christophersnedeker2065

Жыл бұрын

@@Some_Deist Depends on what you mean by literal, people usually think of hell as being a firey lava pit or torture dungeon. I don't nessesarily agree with that. Jesus said fear him that can destroy both body and soul in hell. Physical torture reaches to the body only. Take the story of the rich man and Lazerus, Jesus depicted the man in hades as able to carry on a conversation, if he were on literal physical fire he'd just be going "aaaaaaahhhhhhh". The defining quality of hell is spiritual not physical, though physical punishment may be involved.

@benc6537

Жыл бұрын

@@christophersnedeker2065 Its the burning shame, regret and humiliation of having lived in vain. The rich man thus burns and thirsts for the water of life, the make good. So as to beatify his soul to accept Christ, who'll jailbreak him for the last judgment. It's not rocket surgery, but it is perfectly appointed.

Although I cannot conceive of anyone being so irrational as to reject the grace of God when totally confronted by Christ, still, I could never assume that it is not a possibility and that God would allow that person to follow their own will wherever that takes them. On the other hand, I don't think for many of us, well at least me, that heaven is going to be a picnic when we get there. I am assuming quite of big dose of Pscho(Soul) therapy before fully entering the holy Bliss. Perhaps that is what Purgatory is about.

@chanting_germ.

3 ай бұрын

I'm sorry but this isn't possible. You would have to be created by someone other than God for this to be true. If you are created from nothing (ex nihilo), then everything is of and from God. Your consciousness - your rational will - is a part of "everything." Therefore, your ability to will things is of God and from God. It is, therefore, impossible for that will to eternally long for something other than that which it is from and of. God cannot create a will that ultimately rejects Him - if you say that He can, then you're making a hash of the definition of "will" as its very nature is that which wants and decides and all that. If *that* is of and from God, which we know it is bc of creatio ex nihilo, then it cannot finally choose anything other than God. This isn't a statement of opinion; it's a demonstration of logical impossibility. What you suggest when you assert that God can create a will capable of willing against Him forever is akin to the suggestion that you get your genes from your parents but that they don't contain any of your parents genetic content.

That doctor should have helped her? Such an unchristlike rich doctor?

Jesus on hell: A place of eternal torment - Luke 16:23 Mark 9:43 - unquenchable fire Mark 9:48 - where the worm does not die Matthew 13:42 - where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret Luke 16:19-31 from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones Matthew 25:30 - He calls hell a place of “outer darkness” Matthew 10:28 comparing it to “Gehenna” - the dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burned and maggots To say Jesus didn't talk about hell is absurd, and to say that it is a place of NO RETURN! No return means just that. No return

@benc6537

Жыл бұрын

Easy tiger. The pearly gates are never shut, Jesus empties Hades, and as for the eternal fire, the nations go in and come out and find the pasture. You have to read it to the end, it is the good news of great joy for all mankind, after all, for God's glory, capisce? So look to the omega plan, young man.

@chaplainstudent5689

Жыл бұрын

@@benc6537 I have read it to the end on numerous occasions. Universalism will kill people bro so best not tell them that

@chaplainstudent5689

Жыл бұрын

@@jamesearl389 whoaaaaaaa Nelly partnah. You don't even believe the Red Letters. Jesus died on the cross as a propitiation for your sins partner.

@christophersnedeker

Жыл бұрын

​@@chaplainstudent5689universalists believe the word translated as eternal doesn't mean eternal

@Thomas_Zscheile

Жыл бұрын

I have a question on your comment. What convinces you that Jesus was speaking about life after death and not about judgment that comes over people in this life and results in death? Thanks, Thomas

This is the first time I dislike a video from this channel. I dislike this video because this man did not clarify what he means by "hell" at all. In the mind of the average indoctrinated person, the word "hell" denotes a place of literal physical torture with literal fire that goes on forever (or of hopeless annihilation), and this idea is absolute insanity and a total insult to God's character and God's justice. While I can agree warning about the reasonable, temporary negative consequences of sinning is wise, this video is totally out of character for this channel. And I disagree with him "torture" in the afterlife for millenia is the punishment for sin. I believe God's judgments for sinners are remedial and reasonable. Torture, as in physical torture, is a crime against humanity. I have no idea what he meant by "torturing themselves." And loading people with guilt and fear is not the best way to motivate people to turn to righteousness. Practicing love and holiness, while still sternly speaking against evil and sin, is the right away to do it. I am disappointed with this video.

@mkfort

2 жыл бұрын

If you don't understand the concept of 'torturing themselves' you must not have much experience with addiction. Judgement is real, and God forgives as we forgive ourselves and others. The fire is eternal but the gate is always open. The fire is the same fire as the burning bush.

@wm5000

2 жыл бұрын

There is a judgement and there is a separation at the end of the age, regardless of whether you think (as I do) that God in Christ will reconcile all to himself. How long the pruning of sin will take for each person we of course do not know. But Jesus said initially people will respond with gnashing their teeth = great anger, or weeping = great sadness. It will be unbelievably tragic. People realising they wasted their life on earth, that they spent their entire lives deceived by Satan and the demonic, that the religions they followed were next to worthless, that they were not "good" people like they thought they were, that Jesus was the only way like they were told. The process from being there to being reconciled to God will be brutal, and we don't know how long it will take, or the methods the Lord will use to purge people of their sin. Thank God he will do it, however, I believe.

@wm5000

2 жыл бұрын

@@mkfort Amen. It amazes me equally that there are so many holding traditional positions that underestimate God's mercy, and also that there are those on the other side that think there will be no pruning or purging of sin in the unrepentant after judgement.

@bradensmith5969

2 жыл бұрын

@@mkfort I never denied judgment is real, but I believe there are various ways to view and consider God's judgments. I view God's judgments as corrective and restorative. I believe God only judges as necessary to help the offender identify the problem(s) at hand and to open their hearts to genuinely desire righteousness and holiness. I feel distaste for vindictive and vengeful depictions of God's judgments - as if God is a bloodthirsty deity eager to harm us and cause us pain to fulfill lust for revenge. I do not believe such hateful, evil lusts characterize our loving and merciful Holy Father, and I still dislike this video for basically trying to fill people's hearts with fear - the opposite of what I believe universalism should accomplish.

@christianuniversalist

2 жыл бұрын

@@bradensmith5969 where is Hart even entertaining your ideas in this clip?

Hogwash

I was very disappointed in this video and quite shocked as well. First of all neither Jesus or Paul spoke of a literal hell (no matter how long it is). Warning people about hell goes right back to seeing God as a God of retribution where fear (and not love) is the starting point. There is no fear in love period! It brings us right back to trying to do enough works and live a life of obedience (that is very subjective and no one could possibly know whether they will be one of those who will have to face hell or not) to avoid a future torment. So I am absolutely not going to warn people about hell. We will face a purifying refiners fire of some sort that is rooted in Gods love and it’s purpose is to heal us and restore us. This is a very unfortunate use of words to describe retribution and I think Hart should be ashamed to use this kind of fear tactic that only serves to rob people of the joy and simplicity that they have in Christ. This kind of tactic does not produce real transformation!

@bradensmith5969

2 жыл бұрын

Excellent, Brady. I appreciate you agreeing with me about this.

@bradensmith5969

2 жыл бұрын

I think you may have meant to say "subjective" instead of "objective"? Because every denomination has their own list of do's and don'ts that they claim constitute obedience to God, and it is thus impossible for us to be certain whose list of do's and don'ts is correct.

@bradymayo1306

2 жыл бұрын

@@bradensmith5969 absolutely! I was shocked!

@christophersnedeker2065

Жыл бұрын

There still corrective punishment.

@Tyler_W

Жыл бұрын

@@christophersnedeker2065 true, and it won't be pleasant to those who don't accept it, but I think the claim assumes what that entails. I would say that "fire" refers to the purpose and effect of correction rather than literal method, if that makes sense.

Are sins that are repented of and forgiven punished in the Universalist view?

@ros6111

9 ай бұрын

Of course. Isn't that great news?