Please be advised that this test was purely to show how everything can be tested to double check what you see in doctor. RX was set to maximum visibility so it relates to everything that can be viewed in doctor but it has no relation to audibility. I wouldn't advise setting RX like this in reality as it will make everything look more audible than it actually is. When viewing all of this pay more attention to the numerical values. For example, anything below -80dbfs I would say is completely inaudible but many would argue below -60dbfs so pay more attention to the level of everything when determining if anything is an issue or audible. What other types of under the hood geeky stuff would you like me to investigate next? 🤓

@SuperIZL

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Paul, maybe a bit off topic but you mentioned in a previous video how many pink strips you could run in one project with your i9. I'm am very interested how Lowe core count would effect the performance. Cores could be turned off to simulate a i3, i5 or i7 and by putting you'd system in power saving power scheme your cores would downclock or in your bios to simulate older generations with a lower IPC. I'm very interested in your findings. In my opinion it's very valuable information in modern music making and info on the net is old. And it's geeky so yeah... Could ya pls?

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

I'd need to ask guys in the know. When it comes to computer tech I have very limited knowledge. Suppose I can ask stefan who built my pc

@SuperIZL

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird That would be awesome ❤️

@mathyoooo2

2 жыл бұрын

The different ways to do oversampling. More specifically what type of (lowpass) filters they use internally. Some plugins use standard minimum phase filters, some use linear phase FIR filters and there's even linear phase IIR filters (although probably impossible to tell the linear phase ones apart without seeing the code). You could check if oversampling causes lots of phase shift or maybe some pre-ringing. See what that does to the sound

@SuperIZL

2 жыл бұрын

@@mathyoooo2 ooh +1

you should do a show with a list: of plugins without/;with aliasing ! that would be great

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

I have a list of ideas and that's definitely one of them 🤓 possibly take a dev at a time and get their worst aliasing plugins and oversample them if possible

@akagerhard

2 жыл бұрын

I started my own list, for plugins that I use (and some that I want to use): Eventide doesn't do a lot of harmonics, but seems clean: living up to their name. (Omnipressor, H910 Harmonizer, InstantFlanger, InstantPhaser) Klanghelm: MJUC aliases like an absolute betch. SDRR aliases too. Given their reputation that's a shame. To me personally it felt good to see this, because it kind of "reassured" me that my ears are not crap, since I consistently put them up against other plugins for a while and they always lost. I thought it was because of taste.. now I suspect it might be aliasing. Plugin Alliance: townhouse compressor aliases, but below 100db, so I guess it's okay. mpressor has harmonics, but seems clean. alpha has no harmonics. maag4 has no harmonics (don't use it anymore, still tested it). Blackbox you've (Paul) shown. SPL-Transient Designer: It's a funny funny thing.. absolutely clean if you gainstage.. but don't you dare come in hot, because it will start aliasing like you haven't seen before - and I think that's not good for a transient designer. Sonimus Britson: Channel aliases like a betch, if you drive it.. which is the whole point of the plugin. Am disappointed about that. Because here is my secret: I can't be bothered to use additional plugins in order to oversample a plugin. That means: EQs that cramp, can't do high boosts for me and all plugins with harmonic content simply sound how they sound. Waves: MV2 is clean, RBass has harmonics, but doesn't alias, Scheps Parallel Particles Air aliases a lot (never use it, never liked it), Thick doesn't, Bite aliases reasonably. Softube: I wish I knew. (So if anyone has tests on the Weiss DS1-MK3, Tube-Tech CL 1 B mk II, Chandler Limited Germanium or Mutronics Mutator: I am all ears and eyes!) IKMultimedia fairs a lot better than many people give them credit for... and you don't even need to engage oversampling-buttons. I've seen different approaches. The Clipper and Stealthlimiter seem to be oversampling on their own, the VC670 simply cuts off higher order harmonics, as does their Pultec emulation... and that's their old plugins. Note: If you thoroughly abuse Clipper and Stealthlimiter (drive harder than sounds good) they start aliasing, but newer Plugins like the Comprexxor (Distressor emu) actually solved that problem.. you can abuse it all you want, you won't get aliasing. On the other hand their Space-Delay (which I love) aliases. I wish they would implement the Comprexxor-anti-aliasing-code to all their plugins (and plenty that I don't use will probably aliase like a betch..). Also I wonder what exactly it is that their Tape-Echo (old but gold imo) does.. Harmonics are there, but if the fundamental is 10 k there's like a wide "noisebell" or something through the whole spectrum. Wouldn't call it aliasing by the looks and sound of it, but then again I'm new to this analysing stuff.

@GoGoGoRunRunRun

Жыл бұрын

Btw, there's a thread on Gearspace called "Testing Aliasing of Plugins (meassurements)" which has quite a few plugins tested, if you're interested.

This is the best general explanation of what nyquist and aliasing are. I've always been confused by definitions online previously. THANKS!!!

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

I'm wearing open backs and when you played that tone my dog started barking going nuts at 40. Keep up the amazing detective work!

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

By far the best video I have seen on this channel, let alone on the topic in general. You support your argument conclusively with converging evidence, fantastic content.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Hey Paul, just wanted to thank you for keeping your videos long format and thorough. Shows how much you care, and for someone like me who cares also.... You get the picture :) Good quality educational and scientific content is rare. Keep it up!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Took a long time to edit and set up so always thankful for the appreciation 🤓

No way!! I've been waiting a long time for this. Thank you Paul!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Man Paul... your channel has been quickly becoming one of my favorites! You're a great teacher who knows their stuff.

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤜🤛

thank you! you're all about the facts and sifting through the Bull. Appreciated it!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Absolutely brilliant. Thank for making these videos, you're a legend. Thank you

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Paul this one is a terrific one. Seriously it helps a lot!!!! So I will say say and without any kind of aliasing doubt: THANK YOU!

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Thanks for all the work you put into thus video. So well explained, thank you Paul.

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤜🤛

Great video. Ian Shepherd just created a video on how true peaks can also be creating aliasing when people are unaware their mixes are clipping with a true peak while they look safe just using a standard limiter and standard peak limiting.

Great explanations,Paul. Thanks!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Really important stuff, IMO, mate! Good on you for the video! Thanks for covering it.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Yeah! This is truly one of your best videos so far! Everyone with an IQ above 75 should be able to follow and recreate what you did. I use the tone generator with a sine wave that comes with cubase and sweep it manually from 10k to 20k and the aliasing effect becomes pretty obvious. I'm so glad I never used the "analog" mode in many of the waves plugins. Instead I use Fabfilter's Saturn 2 in HQ-Superb mode.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

The sweep / rx7 method was a big thing for me to really see how much aliasing is in the actual printed file but I'm definitely going to start listening more to test tones to evaluate how much it masks. I think that's what will get quite a few skeptics. When your 10k tone turns into an ambulance.. You got a problem 😂

This was incredible. Thank you!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Well explained & tested, thanks for that, very informative indeed!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Thanks so much Paul - Those audio samples of aliasing really helped me understand the mess I was creating by using certain un-named plugins.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Glad I can help 🤓

@PurpleMusicProductions

2 жыл бұрын

Same here. I immediately removed it from my setup.

Great video Paul. Thanks 🙏🏼

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

very comprehensive, thanks

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Paul you have single handedly totally got me interested in all this analysis thing. I've avoided it thinking to myself that I'd leave it to the technicians while I get on with writing and recording music but because you take the time to teach and with demonstrations as you have so well in this video I am now convinced that I want to know about this. area of music production. This was a great video Paul. I've watched it more than once and will come back to it from time to time. Many thanks for your efforts. More like this please if you can.

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤜🤛

Excellent, as usual. I did learn something....Thank you Paul ;)...Was a joy to watch ;)

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

This was extremely helpful.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Another great video! Thank you so much for this dive on H/A, it has really proven beneficial to my line of thinking and how i'm going to approach this next album. It's already sounding cleaner than anything I've ever produced thanks to your insights about all of this "stuff" lol :) Great stuff mate, thank you so much for your time and effort and your no bullshit approach. Love it!

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤜🤛

You demystified a lot of things for me in this video thank you 👍

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

That was quite useful and well presented!

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Thanks Paul for a very informative presentation.Job weldone.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Fantastic explanation of aliasing. Thank you so much.

@PaulThird

2 ай бұрын

🤓🤓

I learned a lot. Thank you!

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Great Video Paul, thank you very much!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Great video Paul!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Thank you, fantastic video.

@PaulThird

4 ай бұрын

🤓🤓

such an informative video, will be coming back to this one, very interesting

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Thanks a million for this video. I finally understand aliasing. THANKS!

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

very good video 🙏 the ending really helped me

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Very cool to compare it to real gear! Good job on this!

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

thank you for your service

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Thanks for the info bro!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Very useful video, thank you so much 🙏🤙

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

I was just about to blow big money on a UAD suite. Now I have a real conundrum on my hands. Thank you Paul.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Sorry haha

brilliant as always

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Excellent. Well explained and interesting on the demos, understanding "fully" some bits that were maybe a bit hazy before....will now go and play. Then I'm going to find a hardware manufacturer to make me analog gear that aliases like digital cos you know it's going to be the next thing. This is from someone who grew up on analog gear, was glad to see the back of most of it only to find digital versions...... ;)

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

It's like anything else. The more you understand your tools, the more you'll get out them. Understand the limitations and be the dog wagging the tail 🤓

Just a quick tip: using a linear 20Hz-20kHz sweep usually gives you a clearer picture of the harmonics and aliasing. When using a logarithmic sweep, the harmonics/aliasing bunch together in the end of sweep in a big mess, especially if their are a ton of harmonic/aliasing.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Hmmm.. Maybe should have used the longer sweep for the UAD then? Tim Petherick gave me a fast sweep and a long sweep. I used the fast sweep

Nerdy enough for me, thank you!

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Great video, thanks!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Brilliant video! So informative! Would love to see soundtoys plugins in these tests!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Tbh Ive got a list as long as my arm haha maybe one day but they have been done to death on YT

Thanks for unmasking UAD through Plugin Doctor I was waiting for someone to make a video like this. Those UAD guys should find another argument cause they don't have good modeling technology

"today I am going to teach you how to catch aliasing by yourself!" so nobody will bore you about every plugin, great move Sir Paul Thug Harmonics.

@akagerhard

2 жыл бұрын

And there I go asking him about Softube-Plugins every other video.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

The more knowledge we have the more we can influence change. That's how I see it 🤓

@TheMonkBeatsOne

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird I agree, thank you for your work and inspiration. I tweak in a better way my software knobs since I met you [even if I tweak knobs before you born :)].

Great explanation

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓

I think its time to start emailing these companies with a screenshots of plugin doctor and the results of their plugins.. I know what to do this weekend. Thanks Paul!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

I very much doubt you'll get a reply. If you do it will most likely be a cop out blaming doctor or going on about cpu balance and how this is something that doesn't get brought to their attention and they have lots of big engineers who have never complained about it etc etc

@bedtimeread

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird I agree, but there are a couple of things that can be done and you have already started with the 1st one, making people aware that this is a problem.. and this will get people like me to start to get active in pushing for developers to build better codes as soon as the demos become available for testing. Anywho, I do personally thank you because your videos have answered so many questions I had and I really appreciate that. All the best to you and your fam!

Great video

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

your best video by far...

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you. I did put a lot of work into it 🤓

@IamtheI

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird what do you make of all the goofiness going on in the kit neve and noiseash neve... i did test with 10k at -18 and there was a bunch of stuff going on below 10k but it wasnt showing up as static harmonics but instead in jumping all over the place....

Great video! Keep up the good work. I think you should also make a video testing actual music with aliasing while adjusting the aliasing effect. Not all levels of aliasing are detrimental to a song, it can sometimes lead to a desired outcome. Its very difficult to judge the true outcome when analyzing pure sign waves as no song would be composed of a singular sine wave.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Already got videos showing the difference in waves plugins being oversampled from 48 to 96k. I could pick the differences out in blind tests 🤓 There is going to be another video showcasing what waves plugins should sound like as they seem to be the worst for it. Only way it'll work is on the plugins that have a relatively flat linear response as oversampling frequencies past their supported sample rate will cause multiplying of frequencies so I need a relatively flat response for it to work but there are enough there. Did one yesterday on Puigtec over a mix and it was actually shocking now much masking the aliasing added. Muddyness, harshness, lack of punch. Night and day when you remove all the aliasing it adds

Again a great video where even professionals can learn a lot. What do we learn? Stay away from the plugins with the big marketing budget! : Waves, Plugin Alliance and UAD.

@TheMonkBeatsOne

2 жыл бұрын

honestly I didnt get this message, which is just a semplification.

@NikolausBrocke

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheMonkBeatsOne ?? It's easy: The big three selling (some) products that don't do what they claim to do. The proof is here in this channel and in other channels too (Dan Worral).

@TheMonkBeatsOne

2 жыл бұрын

@@NikolausBrocke Sorry, Sir. But I would specify 'some products', and you didn't in your first message. And we are talking about analog emulator plugins: other Waves' products are top of the game since 30 years. Same for UAD: they did the best possible for their legacy products. Also, we saw that Helios [for example] could be bad sounding when pushed at its limits, but when used in basic situations it could sound good, same for Waves 550B [I don't use both]. They both have to do better marketing and better plugins now, yes. But what Paul is teaching us is: analyse the stuff you use, possibly before you buy, then use it properly even having a scientific look at the settings you tweak. That's not an easy "big sisters cheat on [some] plugins". Sorry, Sir.

Paul, another cracking video although I've ended up in geek hell. This is the third or fourth time I've tried to understand aliasing but watching your video is the first time that all the pennies dropped. So, I thought I'd test out my plugins to see which were behaving and which weren't and I was surprised to find that most of the ones I use were pretty good. However, things started to go wrong when I loaded up my amp sim, cranked up some marshall type crunch and put a 10k test tone through it. OMG, it was horrific (in terms of aliasing) and that set me off on the road of downloading and trying just about every amp sim available to see if I could get a better result. And I couldn't. Even those with alleged 16x (!) oversampling still had horrific aliasing. However, on further inspection I found that most of the amp sims were okay up to around a 4k test tone but then they started to struggle, although in very different ways. I also found that many of the amp sims worked very well on a test tone which was "exact", i.e. exactly a certain number of Khz. So they coped well with a 5k test tone but went crazy with a 5.01k or 4.99k. Maybe putting a sine wave through an amp sim isn't really very fair but if those aliasing tones are there on a sine wave then they must be there on the guitar parts although that's proving harder to hear. Okay, back to test out some more stuff - thanks for filling my Monday!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

I did try to make it as simplified as possible as it really bent my head at the beginning so glad that it helped. In regards to guitar amp sims. It's actually a future video idea as I found the exact same. It's actually led me to the point where I'm thinking that all amp sims are a bit of a lie. Ive not tried it yet but I was going to stick an amp sim though a DI and see if it affected the tuning due to all the unmusical frequencies being added. If that's the case then all amp sims are actually making our records less musical as opposed to recording them through amps and mics. Was Contemplating running a few drive pedals as a hardware insert to compare the difference between the sims aliasing and the pedals true harmonics. Honestly I don't know why everybody isnt talking about it tbh

@Big_Stewdio

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird, you and Dan Worrall have a way of telling me things that I already know but in a way that makes me finally understand what they actually mean. I've only found your channel recently but you're doing a great job - keep going. I thought I must be doing something wrong with the amp sims because I just couldn't believe what I was seeing in terms of the aliasing. I'd be really interested to hear what you uncover because I've drawn a blank (in technical terms) and just can't understand why the aliasing is so .... egregious! I'm sure you're way ahead of me but in case it's useful I tried out presonus ampire, audio assault blacksun, mercuriall spark, neural dsp fortin nameless and scuffham s-gear. For those that did have optional oversampling I turned it up to full (that's allegedly 16x on the blacksun) and still got horrible aliasing at anything much more than 4k and, as I said, often in the inbetween frequencies. So even when 4k was fine, 3.99k often wasn't. Even more bizarrely, moving to 96khz sample rate didn't seem to help much so maybe those harmonics that are being generated just keep on going?! I'm going to be honest here and say that even though it was very obvious on a test tone, it wasn't night and day obvious on actual guitar tracks. But I only had a cursory listen so I will be very interested in what you find out. It certainly seems that amp sims are "technically" awful with horrible aliasing but I wonder how much difference that makes to the sound.

My top 5 Waves plugins... 1. F6 DynamicEQ, it's just a super handy tool for taming resonances and tightening low end, super great. 2. Abbey Road Plates, this is definitely one of my favourite plate reverbs. 3. L316 Multiband limiter. I don't do a ton of mastering, and I don't go out of my way to make masters excruciatingly loud, but sometimes I do want it LOUD and this plugin goes to 11. 4. Element synthesizer. This is great when I want to quickly dial up some kind of synth patch, it's nothing super fancy, but it works and I can tweak it to sound right pretty quickly. 5. Electric88 virtual Fender Rhodes instrument, it's one of the better sampled Rhodes instruments I've come across so far. No match for the real thing, but still very usable. It almost captures the dirtiness of the real thing.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

Great vid! I forgot about that Access Analog service. Got to try that out. I'm increasingly needing to test plugin emulations (and their often wild claims) for my video reviews. Thanks for this!

@PaulThird

Ай бұрын

🤓🤓

@dahlhousestudios

Ай бұрын

@@PaulThird Have you kept the Access Analog service? Do you / did you use it often?

@PaulThird

Ай бұрын

Not used it in well over a year. I don't get any benefit from analog

@dahlhousestudios

Ай бұрын

@@PaulThird Right! Good to know. Was sure handy for comparison tests though. Thanks for the replies. great vids.

Great video buddy, great explanation, on the UAD legacy defence, it's noted that those are more DSP friendly due to the removal of the analog harmonics. But the Aliasing on this Helios mic pre 🤦🏾‍♂️🤦🏾‍♂️

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

I think cause many don't test plugins before buying many devs have purely been lazy in many plugs cause they want to maintain the friendly cpu/dsp sales pitch. Shocked at UAD though. Expect a lot better

This was truly excellent. Thank you for putting this together! I only wish you could've put the updated UAD Pultec emulation next to the legacy to compare. I know you've previously endorsed the updated UAD Pultec in an earlier vid as an accurate emulation, but I am curious of how it compares in terms of harmonics and aliasing.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

I know it's annoying. That's the problem with demos.. They expire unfortunately haha plus UAD have never reached out to me so it's probs gonna stay that way 😢 I mailed them twice over the course of the year but never got a reply. Guess I'm stuck with what comes with the pcie card

@perhoier2881

2 жыл бұрын

You can contact UA about a demo reset.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

I'll try again but I got bumped the last 2 times 😢

FYI, UA are pretty transparent about the fact that their Legacy versions have no THD, so absolutely no surprise on the Pultec Legacy section.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

I know but how many people actually know that? Especially when tons of legacy plugins come with the pcie cards. Honestly you'd be surprised. people would actually argue with me saying that about the legacy plugins unless I showed it 😂

@yikelu

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird haha people are amazing aren't they. Straight from the horses mouth/website and they don't believe it.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

That's why i need to prove everything I say now. Honestly in this community you give an inch somebody will take a mile. You've gotta be pretty careful on YT especially if your starting out

@umanoid1523

2 жыл бұрын

I have the UAD legacy plugins with one the UAD2 pcie card. I pulled the card over a year ago since i never used the plugins. To be honest I never liked them and used them occasionally. I never even understood much about the whole analogue emulation and why a Pultec was supposed to be special. Until I started watching your videos and others on engineering and mastering. The science of music and sound! What do you think about genres of music that intentionally add aliasing like lofi using old sampler emulations ? Its also used in Synthwave. I just picked up the SQ80 plugin from Arturia and to my ears it has all the grainy digital nasties the original had to its sound.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

It's all about the understanding. As you said it's a sound for certain genres but you know when it's applicable. That understanding allows you to use it as a tool compared to not knowing at all. Gives you more control as an engineer. I avoid audible aliasing like plague but there may be a time where it just works but I'm in control of the aliasing, not the other way round if that makes sense. I can choose whether it's there or not. I know what plugins cause it and how to control it. If anything it gives you more knowledge about how plugins work which I think gives you a better understanding of your tools which is invaluable in itself 🤓

Super good video, Paul! Keep up the great work! 👍 Maybe the guys at Waves and UAD should watch your channel so they finally learn something ;-)

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

@edwardx.winston5744

Жыл бұрын

The irony here is that Paul may be putting even more money into Waves owners’ pockets. “New update version with oversampling! Renew your WUP membership today!” At least they half-heartedly tried to do this in the BB plug-in released recently. Although the higher oversampling options are broken, the 2x works. If one records tracks @ 96k, oversampling @ 192k should work out fine. … at least that’s what I’m telling myself after dropping $25 on it. 🤦‍♂️

Good video. Regarding aliasing and OS, I have to say... OS is not free of issues. I've tried by doing some mixes replacing my plugins with all oversampled ones. Yes, the mix sounded cleaner but... OS may turns the transients weird, smearing those. Like an "unnatural" sound. At the end of the day, the key is finding the balance for me. I guess each company implements the SRC in a certain way, and with some plugins, as least for my ears, some OS sounds weird. However, aliasing is something that must be taken into account, especially with saturation/overdriving/distorsion plugins.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah oversampling is something that I'm thinking about. Trying to find plugins that oversample using different techniques and then see if we can compare any audible differences between them. Or something along those lines

Great video Paul! It would be great to see how much changing from 44.1 or 48 to 88.2 or 96 makes to the aliasing on some of the examples you showed. I'm guessing moving from 44.1 to 88.2 would reduce it as much as 2X oversampling? Or does it work differently than that when you're oversampling internally in the DAW? Thanks again for your great videos.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Same thing. Oversampling a plugin x2 at 48k is equivalent to loading the plugin in a 96k session

@heronislandstudio8054

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird Cheers

Thanks a lot, facts only facts :)

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

🤓🤓

@davidrevan1374

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird Do you have a list of plugins that you advise maybe? (Without Aliasing). I read the next comment below, very interesting feedback as well.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Depends on what you are looking for really.

@davidrevan1374

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird I think about classic and common usage. For instance, plugin EQ like Pultec, API, Neve, Compressors like SSL, 1176, Neve stuffs. Actually: The "no-aliasing" and nice tone plugins *starter pack* for Mixing ...and mastering why not! :) Cause you demonstrated that the major brands of plugins are not really synonymous of Professional tools. I'm thinking about Analog Access, but the costs could be high regarding the duration of a full album production.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Depends on whether you want realistically modelled or plugins that can offer you the workflow but loosely modelled.

Can you give an actual musical demonstration. I appreciate the single tone example but how can you recognize in an actual musical composition with multiple instruments playing. Thanks and love the scientific approach.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/c5-jk6eOhNqccco.html That's a good example

Great video Paul, keep it up! But also: Just wait twenty years. Everyone will say: let's try and recreate the sound of the 2020s. If you truly want to emulate it you will need: aliasing. People in the past tried so hard to make everything as clean as possible. Now we're looking for the dirt and wrongness :). Just look at all the tape and console plugins. All I'm saying is: Aliasing is a sound! Just try and enjoy it :P

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

I'll never enjoy aliasing.. I REFUSE!! 😂

@SanctusKain

2 жыл бұрын

I agree with Paul here. Aliasing is all that is bad about plugins. Noise and randomness in curves is relative. @Paul Third said in a comment in last video that or even in the video maybe that they capture hardware at their peak performance. And that is amazing. If we wouldn't have aliasing all the hardware emulations would sound better than the hardware.

@ramspencer5492

2 жыл бұрын

Aliasing isn't even a good way to get a nice nasty digital distortion if that's what you're after..... Nobody is going to miss it off it goes away.

@mathyoooo2

2 жыл бұрын

I mean aliasing can work for special effect type sound design, but in general it just makes things sound muddy imo.

@soundeducation5554

Жыл бұрын

The frequencies of aliasing have nothing to do with the frequencies of the music - so totally unmusical. Nobody wants that.

Great video! thats Paul. Can you please show us about the Fab Filter Saturn 2 and aliasing?

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

That's got oversampling has it not?

Been watching your videos for a while, and been nodding along to aliasing, but never fully understanding it. However, this video really cleared things up for me. So thanks alot! Looking at jumping to UAD very soon, with my first purchase being the Helios. Can UAD plugins be oversampled in Metaplugin/PatchWork, just as you would with non-DSP plugins? Would be nice to know if there's a way of working around the aliasing it produces above 40 db. They do refer to it as a "custom-made, feedback-style, 70 dB input section." What do you suppose the "feedback-style" means?

Paul, you're my new hero! Thanx for a great video. I've got a question. Could I get rid of (some) of the aliasing rendering my projects at 96k? If so, what about downsampling it back to 48k? Thank you.

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

Nope has to be done on the track itself. Rendering the project at a higher sample rate purely upsamples the master channel and has no effect on the tracks

The fire cobra oversampling is made by Meldaproduction as far as I know. Melda plugins do the same job in oversampling. Maybe you take a look at these tools.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Dunno.. I tried their msatutator and wasn't near as good as cobra. However msatutator is free so it's a tough one to call. Just tried out Tbpro audio gsatplus.. Now that is a saturation plugin. Free, no aliasing at x4 oversampling and has a random mode where it manipulates mid and side harmonics in real time. Gives it that proper random non linear behaviour. You can choose between odd and even harmonics as well and boost to taste. Honestly why these sorts of plugins aren't more in the social eye is beyond me. All the gearspace guys had a massive say on this plugin so it's been thoroughly vetted. And it's free while the new SSL fusion drive is £200+.. Its like nobody's interested unless it's got an analog face plate 🤷‍♂️

oh man I´ve done a deep dive on your channel today in the studio, although I should really have been working. so do you always prefer maximum oversampling on everything when it comes time for mixdown? any drawbacks?

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

If my cpu can handle it max oversampling but only if im really driving the plugin hard into saturation where I'd need max oversampling. In most cases x4 should be enough. I do the oversampling in the context of the mix, not just when exporting

Great vid mate really enjoyed. If you take printed the 10kHz tone with +30dB and +70dB and bring them back in then you could do a null test with them. This would leave the aliasing right? Maybe needs level matching or transparently compensating for the boost with Q3 to properly null everything but the aliasing

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah it's a good idea but it's flawed as you'll also hear the added harmonics in the null as well. However you've gave me an idea to oversample, print and do a null test vs original without oversampling. That would leave you with the aliasing 🤓

@mmcb5199

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird haha yes that would make sense! I was just thinking it would be good to actually hear what different types of aliasing sounds like opposed to seeing it in a parametric eq or the spectrogram and just flat out saying it's gonna be bad. also it would be interesting to hear what the aliasing that bounced back i.e. curved back round such as in the rueletec eg did @10:28 compared to the fucking mess of helios which was more to the left of the base fundamental harmonic @23:09. if that makes any sense!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

I'm thinking a test per developer where I pick their worst ones and show the difference when you oversample. Something like that

Just awesome my dude!! How do u go about makin those sweep thingamabobs?

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

www.dropbox.com/s/8b8ttdshnyaxsp6/testtones.zip?dl=0 you can download them from Tim Pethericks website 👌

any harmonic exciters or additive equalization of high frequencies, I try to use outboard analog gear. I figured everything else like subtractive EQ, or even low frequency boosts are OK. any important elements like vocals I will also use outboard compression.

I record with the Helios UAD emulation quite a bit and learning how much aliasing is in it is shocking, I have been DESTROYING my recordings :/ thanks for the knowledge fr

@PaulThird

Ай бұрын

🤓🤓

Regarding your final comment about aliasing not existing in the analog domain: That's technically not true as you can hear aliasing in bucket-brigade delays pushed to long delay times, and it can even be a cool sound if used deliberately. But of course these delay chips are essentially "half digital" already - discrete in time and continuous in amplitude. Great video!

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I remember reading about digital pedals and finding out that they had sample rates just like daws, normally 44.1, which caused them all to alias when pushed into distortion. Anything that requires a sample rate to reproduce an audio signal is using digital processing. Dunno what you'd class some of those pedals as.. Hybrid? Haha

@JoHouse533

Жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird I guess it's semantics, but most people would consider something like a Deluxe Memory Man an "analog" delay... Even though the bucked brigade circuit has a sample rate and a clock, so it's essentially a very early form of digital processing. I think they marketed it as "solid state" at the time, in contrast to tape delays. Modern digital pedals with a proper converter and processor are a different story. Looking forward to a potential future video on amp sims. I love my Helix modeler, but technically it probably aliases like hell. Does that mean my ears are broken? Or did they manage to control the aliasing artifacts in a way that in the end is registered by listeners more as uniform noise and not un-musical?

Very well put together video with excellent demonstrations. A great demonstration of the theory. If I could offer some constructive feedback...what I found missing was any realistic demonstration of how this sounds on actual tracks, busses or program material. You say "Imagine what this would sound like on...". Why are you leaving it up to our imagination? Theoretically, aliasing is bad and noticeable, sure. But nowhere in a real mix is a plugin going to be put on a pure sinewave test tone. I realize this was already a long video with a lot of ground to cover, and you did it well. That said, showing us real world examples of this theory in practice would have been more valuable than all the visual analysis and sine sweeps. We don't listen to music with our eyes. Perhaps you've already done this, so feel free to link in a video if you've covered it elsewhere.

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/c5-jk6eOhNqccco.html Done a few more videos with examples of aliasing as well but that was a pretty good one if I recall

Love your videos Paul.. amazing content. Just out of curiosity what version of waves 550B is that? I've just run v.12 in plugin doctor and there seem to be 4 harmonics on top of the fundamental, but they only appear when the analogue mode switch is on - using the eq without....it is as clean as a whistle even with the boost on the output as you do to get your first order harmonic. V.12 still aliases like a beeatch though ;-p ;-)

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Hmmm.. Looks like they have upgraded it then. I think my api 550b may be v9 or 10. If they have upgraded it then it just makes me angrier at the waves update plan as all upgrades should be free like every other developer. They just don't do anything right do they 😂

Awesome educational video...although...man, that's a lot of money we have waste in plugins emulations kind of useless. Lots to the garbage :/ 2021 I said bye to waves, got rid of a whole bunch of p.A, sticking to softube, some of UAD and really really starting to get Acustica Audio technology. There's something quite unique there. Cheers!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Can't remember the last time I bought a plugin haha but yeah I've wasted a lot of money over the years 🤓

@spheresoundscrstudio

2 жыл бұрын

@@CraigScottFrost Not a all, what i meant is there are lots of very bad plugins out there from several companies, but the market them very well, at the end is not really what they say the are, PA has quite good unique plugs, they do, but others through time i just stop using them, did not stand out.

Could've been so nice if you uploaded a link for the sweep and the 10k sine tone. That's been really helpful. I'll have to go through my plugins checking what's up now. Btw, do you think the very same method should be applied to plugins that don't emulate analog gear?

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

I'm pretty sure every daw has a sine tone generator. That's what I do in protools. Highlight a section on the time line, audio suite and then generate a sine tone

@ReckDemon

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird Thanks for your reply! I thought of it actually. I use ableton so I'll try to make one with a stock synth. What about the sweep? Should it be an automated Sine getting pitched or something?

You're kind of like the Superman of plugins... fighting for truth, justice and the analogue way.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

I do have my enemies as well though. There's a few lex luthers out there who want to take me down 😂

Hey Paul! Great vid, thanks man! Just wanted to tip you off. They are about to come out with RX 9. If you buy 8 now you get 9 for free. Or maybe it's if you pre-order you get 8 for free. Not sure but it's one of them. May be worth the upgrade for you. :)

@matt_nyc_audioengineer

2 жыл бұрын

Ok, just checked. You get 9 for free if you buy 8 now.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

How much is 8?

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

KZreads really funny with links. It's too expensive for me. I'd love to have rx9 but I'll probs just get in contact and see if I can wangle an NFR from izotope haha I have no shame in asking for plugins now 😂

@matt_nyc_audioengineer

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird Nor should you! I'm sure they will. I write my plugins off on my taxes but I'm not sure how that works on your side of the pond lol. I get it! I'm working like crazy right now but broke, billlllllssssssssssssss........

Thanks Paul ! Do Acustica plugins perform better?

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

On the most part yeah as they are mostly pretty clean

Hi Paul, new to your channel. Your video's are really quite shocking ! If what you say is right then we're being conned into buyng expensive plugins that don't do what they should do. I'd be interested to see how some of the highly regarded free plugins from for instance Analog Obsession compare. And of course how amp sims fare with respect to aliasing. I record all my electrics with amp sims because it is so much easier and more flexible........

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

With guitar amp sims and digital guitar effects aliasing is just something that you have to accept. However neural dsp so x4 PA and Sgear do X8 do they are working on it but most cheap amp sims you'll find are riddled with aliasing due to the amount of distortion created. Amp sims is something I plan on looking at in more detail

Hi there can i know how you setup the rx 7 to view the aliasing effect

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Just imported the printed sweep from the daw into the desktop version of RX7.

That was raj (or 'nae bad' as we say even further north than you are)! As an ageing guitarist who'se developed an interest in sound recording, this is all new to me, but very much appreciated. So would you recommend analog rather than plugins, if one can afford it?

@PaulThird

Жыл бұрын

In regards to heavy saturation you need a plugin with lots of high quality oversampling. Melda has one of the best OS algorithms and their amp sims and distortion based plugins make aliasing not a problem as they can go very high without completely ruining the phase. But for really really high gain stuff, amps and pedals will always be best id say. But analog pedals, not digital pedals which you can find here and there

Cakewalk by Bandlab has built-in plugin oversampling up to 384k. This is plugin oversampling, independent of the project sample rate.

@KEI-um1kc

9 ай бұрын

Reaper DAW has this per plugin oversampling as well

Great Vid Paul...between you, Dan Worall and Greg Scott...the main foundations are available for anyone to excel in the journey of mix. The only neg is your swearing :-) maybe most are ok...but it cheapens your amazing knowledge and great personality. I dont swear because it just doesnt feel great...but more than that...I have my kids etc around when Im watching, not always in the studio but hey its your gig...just trying to help feedback things that make stuff better. Really enjoyed this one...I bought so much of the uad up front and a couple of uad1 cards...and it cost a lot. Was never that impressed with a lot of it; the 1176/fairchild were good. After the 'consumerist' nature of UAD (and I bought powercore etc), I would warn others...never buy dsp systems; they just become a useless dongle. In the meantime so much amazing native stuff has come out. You have encouraged me to check out Abbey Road sat and VVA now...which I used a lot but never really studied it in depth like this. Thanks again

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah it's hard due to my aspergers. I do everything in one take and I don't realise I've swore over an important bit until I edit haha I genuinely just go off the top of my head in every video Plus, I work in the college now with young sparks and in the middle of the whole trades department.. In Scotland..so swearing becomes as normal as hi and bye, especially when you become animated 😂 I'll try my best to see if I can limit it though 🤓

@iam-music

2 жыл бұрын

​@@PaulThird Thanks for your response...Dont worry...I get it...would just be nice to not have to wear earbuds hehe. I use to swear like a trooper as they say...I dont really know...but just had a spiritual experience a number of years ago and pretty much never had another swear word come out since. But look, really enjoy what you are doing. I think its so important to have the background knowledge. I always like good mix to good photo/composition and HDR is almost exactly the same...where you take a wide dynamic range and balance it with composition/key/tones etc but of course its a visible language...but using the curves tool is just like a multiband and so it goes on and on. Breaking the mechanisms down into these types of modules is really good. I was horrified to try it out this afternoon on an F6 and Im not sure if I have something wrong but it is absolutely hideous for aliasing. Would love to pm you the example and see what you think...but the F6 is my first locked in plug in my templates as I use it a the swiss knife to fix issues before it moves along the workflow.

i remember doing a test comparing daws when bouncing audio , back in 2012 the winner was logic pro 9 and the worst was pro tools it adds too much aliasing when bouncing audio

great vid...thanks man.... just one question, when is aliasing appear? is it just when you saturate? are you safe if you just use clean digital stuff?

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Aliasing is only created when you saturate and make high order harmonics past nuquist in your DAW's sample rate. Depends on how much you saturate and how high the harmonics made are. If you were only to use clean plugins aliasing isn't an issue

@4low395

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird good to know...big thanks man!!

Wouldnt the curve be dynamic as well? Would the curves match with a different frequency or amplitude sample signal

The new "MS" version of the Black Box plugin (the one shown in this video) is massively better than the old (non-MS) version in terms of aliasing

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I was thinking that. I recall the aliasing of the original being commented on a lot

Really great episode! You really know your stuff! Who have taught you all of that stuff?? Thank you so much for sharing! I wonder how many of audio gear reviewers actually knows this level of examining gear.. I belive.. very very few.. You could be a consultant for serious reviews.. if anyone would be interested!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Mainly Tim Petherick but a few other clever engineers as well. I have a good network 🤓 All I do is annoy them with questions haha Theres still loads more to understand though. What I do is I learn so much, share it with others and use others to teach me stuff whether it be from the comments or even people stating I'm wrong. I learn from that that and then repeat the cycle. That's how I work and learn in my own strange way haha trust me there are a lot very well educated guys out there. Maybe not on youtube but they would have me tied up in knots within a few minutes haha I just bleed them dry.. But in very small doses.. I am nowhere near done with them and unfortunately for them they can see more questions around the corner 😂

@callehellstrom

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird That's the key to any success. Throw yourself out there and learn from the best. You are the best at what you do that I know on KZread and that is not nothing. Keep up the great work 👑

@stupidusername38

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird there are plenty on the ignore list these days. The usual first day release influencers. Funny you never see them using the software that they always claim are "game changers"

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah there is a lot of that going on. I was pleased with myself as I was looking over my new single as its nearly finished. Was very pleased to see the transparency haha Sonimus Britson routing throughout, sonible smart eq, cola comp, camel pre, TimP Lbus2 & Opto 32, London acoustics telge & uad 1176 as rear bus, titanium and bettermaker combo on mixbus, neold big AL, hg2 black box, titanium cl1b, spiff, magenta pre, arturia 33609.. Blond, soothe and fabfilter in premixing, Probably a few more as well I'm forgetting but mostly everything I've said I like I use haha

@stupidusername38

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird nice one, i took a large chunk of time this morning testing based on your methodology. The results for some plugins didn't really surprise me, except for one company, TBProAudio. The implementation of oversampling was really good on his free GSatPlus. The 4x oversample got rid of all the inharmonics. Analog Obsession wasn't that great oversampled, still some audible inharmonics. A few demos from another manufacturer that i tried also showed positive results but at the expense of serious amounts of CPU.

Hey Paul, thanks for doing this tutorial. what do you mean when you say bounced back , like at 5:34.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

The harmonics essentially hit the end of the frequency range and bounce back as aliasing

@Hassan_Omer

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird Thank you very much for the prompt reply!

Paul, wonderful video here mate. This has really added a great deal of understanding to my musical and engineering abilities. I own a huge amount of UAD plugins and am now very disappointed at the fact that all of them have no oversampling on.... Which begs the question...... Just how good is UAD really? If im running a session with 10 of the same plugins (regardless if i record at 96k, 24bit) im still going to get aliasing.... Im so upset at this. Its just sad actually. You basically CANNOT drive the UAD stuff too hard otherwise you will most probably be adding a shit ton of aliasing

So... it's a mirror at the end that reflects back to the pool... Interesting.

@stupidusername38

2 жыл бұрын

Ay, and the UA plugins were more like Dorian Gray's mirror

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Very nice analogy 🤓

Thanks for the video! What is it when there's a ton of harmonics like at 6:20 above the fundamental? So many of them they just look like a lot of noise, can't be good, right? Also, why do you think a lot of Acustica Audio plugs have that high noise floor? Those that I checked in Plugin Doctor did anyway. In your opinion, is it just inevitable with the convolution technique? But then again, I thought high end hardware was usually less noisy.

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

What you see there is 192khz sample rate. You'd never actually hear any of the information you see there. Technically speaking there is around 172khz of inaudible harmonics and noise haha In terms of noise and convolution I suppose it's what happens when you sample gear. Id assume that's also captured in the frequency response. It also depends on the level of the noise. Most noise you see in PD may look a lot but if you look at the dB scale it's actually still under -100db. You'll find that nearly all noise in plugins is kept well below the audible threshold. Some gear is like that too. Just depends on the gear

@igorpromissel

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird Cheers, that's very helpful for me. Wishing you a good weekend and sending a hello from Russia :)

Could you use Metaplugin’s over sampling to help mitigate the aliasing in the plugins you already own that do alias?

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah. Ive done it in other videos with waves plugins 🤓 you've just got to be careful that you don't exceed the plugins supported sample rate so if you oversample too much it'll start shifting the frequencies up. For example most waves is supported up to 96k with some exceptions at 192k. If you boost past its supported sample rate then a 100hz boost will be 200, 5k boost will be 10k etc etc and it'll multiply again with every oversample

@danieldwyer5547

2 жыл бұрын

@@PaulThird huh, I didn’t know that. That’s super cool (and interesting) haha. Love your channel btw. Cheers!

So... how're you feeling about analogue gear these days? 😉 The deeper you dig the more you'll see why us "old skool" guys are devoted. All the hardware I own is modern and has virtually no harmonics unless you overdrive it... I actually think the quest for "analogue sound in digital plugz" has prompted devs to overdo the harmonics - which, of course, makes aliasing more of a problem! (which is probably why UAD and Waves chose not to add harmonic overtones as they are guaranteed to alias!) Anyway, good job exposing the digital plugin's "dirty little secret"!

@PaulThird

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah Im glad you confirmed the harmonics thing cause I was printing sweeps of a lot of gear like.. "these are relatively clean.. Wtf" haha

@akagerhard

2 жыл бұрын

while I agree on the "overdoing harmonics part" in plugins - I can't agree that "old skool guys" are devoted to analogue gear. Some are, some aren't. To me these videos do not prove analogue superiority at all.. these videos simply share a light on lazy plugin-developers.. there are more than enough plugins that compete or even best analogue gear - and that's without talking price-range and maintenance-cost. The BlackBox Plugin for instance cracks at a point that you will never, ever, ever, ever come to in a real mixing-situation... if you'd use settings that hard any scource would sound horrible.