The message i took from Kingdom Come was not that the "past was better", but that you shouldnt lose sight of what makes you yourself, or what makes one a decent person despite the harshness of the times you live in. The fact that Superman is portrayed as someone who has good intentions but ends up imprisoning all the younger heroes in a literal "Gulag" and nearly killing a whole building full of people is, i think, meant to show that deifying nostalgia isnt healthy.

@domgeek5632

3 жыл бұрын

Another theme I see pointed out is that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Which is a good imo that is. I love Kingdom Come. Favorite comic ever.

Moore's original set-up sounds crazy, I want to see it done.

@fredrikgranstrom6743

3 жыл бұрын

Metoo!

@neighborhoodthreattv

3 жыл бұрын

ReleaseTheMooreCut

@cicolasnage5684

Жыл бұрын

Not in this life time, Moore is so soured to comics that he wants fuck all to do with them let alone DC. Years ago they offered to give Moore full rights back to watchman if he helped write Before Watchmen but he turned it down.

@arcadiaberger9204

Жыл бұрын

@@cicolasnage5684 Even without Alan Moore, some form of *_Twilight of the Superheroes_* could still be created. I like the idea.

@jagnestormskull3178

11 ай бұрын

Lots of stuff would likely need to be changed, like the perversion and general lack of heroism among the heroes. Having read Alan Moore's proposal, it also sounds like he drastically misunderstands the character of Nightwing, and that any modern version would have a radically different characterization of Nightwing.

That description of how the Multiverse would work sounds alot like the concept pf Hypertime.

I agree that to say Kingdom Come is a straight plagiarism of Twilight of the Gods is wrong. Sure one does inspire the other, but they are so different in terms of actual plot, themes, and tone. And quite frankly I prefer Kingdom Cone's tone. Yes, it is harsh and so many heroes die, but hope is not gone. There are still heroes, and the best of what they stand for continues on. There is a bittersweet ending that I enjoy. I find Moore's work a bit too dark for my tastes. He's still a good writer though.

So Twilight of the Superheroes would've been Game of Thrones meets Watchmen in Crisis on Infinite Earths.

@nivaldowesley666

4 жыл бұрын

for me, looks like all that and Old Man Logan a little bit....

@phantomfire8228

4 жыл бұрын

@@nivaldowesley666 Maybe Mark Millar took inspiration from this idea.

@fredrikgranstrom6743

3 жыл бұрын

Wow

This is very fascinating to me personally, but it's probably for the best Twilight never saw any further development. Thanks for this amazing insight.

Superman: Distant Fires, by Howard Chaykin and Gil Kane was much closer to the intent of TOTS than KC. Post-apocalyptic and with depowered heroes, but still evil Shazam vs Superman. Not as good as AM, but still worth a look.

@d-dog1175

3 жыл бұрын

Which comic is AM

@randalldowling1068

3 жыл бұрын

Alan Moore

@daelen.cclark

3 жыл бұрын

I personally just found it kinda stupid.

When I first heard of Twilight of the superheroes I thought it sounded a bit like kingdom come. So glad you made this video love the comparison.

Perhaps you meant "disenchanted" You cannot become "disenfranchised with" the verb and preposition would be "disenfranchised by" as disenfranchise means power or rights have been removed. Really love your series!! Super informative and fun to listen to for comic fans.

@StrangeBrainParts

4 жыл бұрын

You are correct! I did make a word choice/grammar boo-boo. Good catch.

@cicolasnage5684

Жыл бұрын

Lighten up francis.

I don't think the fact that both stories focus on Captain Marvel taking down Superman is a strong indicator of taking elements from Twilight. To me it seems like a very logical story decision to have the number 1 character taken down, and to choose the closest match for him to do it. Captain Marvel just seems like the most sensible choice for a hero to kill superman to me.

@unrulysimian3897

5 жыл бұрын

swee neezy - yup.

@owenmadden7577

5 жыл бұрын

DC frequently used Captain Marvel in an adversarial position to Superman before and after the Moore pitch. They are a good match.

@SirPumpkinSlice

5 жыл бұрын

They are always going to be connected.

@radicalraddish6292

4 жыл бұрын

Hes also just the perfect foil for a version of superman whos doubting himself

@fredrikgranstrom6743

3 жыл бұрын

It would be him or bizaro really

I feel that Kingdom Come took more inspiration from the original Squadron Supreme maxi series than Twilight of the Super heroes

@robnokes8465

4 жыл бұрын

Underrated Story by the Way.

I think you could easily just hand wave the whole captain marvel being a foil for Superman by saying captain marvel has magic powers so he was the only one who could harm Superman

Excellent stuff. Truly. Re Captain Marvel taking out Supes - who else was gonna do it? Seems like the logical choice. Off-topic - I'd love to hear your take on "Prez," the DC comic from the 70s. It seems like the unusual kind of comic you'd have read. I gobbled it up when it came out (I was 10 or so). Haven't read it since then, and have only seen the character since when Gaiman used him in Sandman.

@shawnmalone9711

4 жыл бұрын

I have about 3 copies of "Prez" from 1973-1974. It was about an 18 year teen elected to the presidency. The voting age was lowered to 18 and the youth vote along with a corrupt politician was able to get a teen in office. The corrupt politician had that iconic 70s symbol😊 as a face. The comic book pandered to the youths who were disenchanted with Watergate,1972-1974. The comic book was written by Joe Simon and drawn by Jerry Garnetti(?) It was as bizarre as the late 1960s comic book" Brother Power , the Geek", lol!

@fredrikgranstrom6743

3 жыл бұрын

I agree

Mark Waid was in comics a long time and it takes a long time for many writers to reach full steam. Recently I found a fan letter from Mark Waid to World's Finest in '79 or '80! He was involved with the Legion early through fan groups. He helped create DC's Impact line in the early 90's and despite what you might think, there are real gems in there. He was part of, if not a co-architect of Zero Hour in '94. Waid is all over 80's and 90's DC. He paid his dues. If this idea was stolen, it was management, not him. What's more, basic story ideas have been recycled forever.

The only reason Moore wanted to do Twilight was to undo Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Looks like an intriguing comic series, but I find the unproduced concept much more interesting.

Its awesome to learn things you were unaware of about comics. Thank you. Mr. Strangebrain

There's no way DC hasn't offered Moore dump trucks of money to officially publish this

Well done. DC has an even longer timeline to deal with than Marvel. I guess its hard to let characters age or die.

Who was the Artist on kingdom come I love his style

@carsonsmith7314

4 жыл бұрын

Alex Ross was the artist on Kingdom Come.

@fredrikgranstrom6743

3 жыл бұрын

Alex ross

I hope one day we can see Twilight of Superheroes as a comic book.

@arcadiaberger9204

Жыл бұрын

Same.

I love Kingdom Come as well as Marvels.

The biggest similarity between *_Twilight of the Superheroes_* and *_Kingdom Come_* is Superman's showdown with Captain Marvel. Of course, in *_Twilight,_* Captain Marvel isn't Captain Marvel at all . . . .

@javib2978

6 ай бұрын

Marvel 2099 has a similar feel to Twilight of the Superheroes too. A definitive ending to the marvel universe all together.

Mark Waid was an editor at the time and I have no doubt he read the pitch and copied it 99% when Moore's original version wasn't used.

I love kingdom come. Its one of my all time favorite graphic novels. Allen Moore despite writing some of the greatest stories in comic book history is not as amazing as I once believed he was. I look at ideas like this and think of how instead of a comic book it would have served the story better as a novel. And I think that's what I don't like about a lot of his works is that his scope of storytelling was more broad and had so many unique layers to it that the work stops being entertaining and becomes more like moby dick the novel. I have read moby dick and it's one of my favorite stories of all time but nobody reads that book for entertainment purposes. Hence why I as I get older Allen Moore fails to catch my attention and makes me want to read his body of work. I never read comics for literary purposes or because I needed something that deep to make me think. In all actuality there are countless stories that can make you think because the base story is that good. But this is just my personal opinion not gospel. At the end of the day kingdom come is great to me because what it doesn't tell you but what it shows you and Allen Moore's idea is Convoluted and overly complex to a fault and that does not appeal to me as much

@MutantsInDisguise

Ай бұрын

Was KINGDOM COME a graphic novel?

Having somehow only just found out about Twilight (being an old fan of both comics and specifically alan moore), I can retrospectively totally believe it was a jumping off point for KC. But being familiar with kingdom since it originally was published, I always saw it as very obviously DCs response to the success of Marvels, keeping with the tradition of the Big Two constantly chasing each others tails and ripping each other off be they good ideas or bad.

Give it a few years and the Johns-Frank-Anderson creative team will release the story. It’s DC’s last idea!

I just found your channel and I'm eating up your content!! This is so much fun. Thank you. Any chance you may take on a history of Marvel 2099 at some point?

If I was working in IDW, my idea for a dark futuristic My Little Pony series would be called The Dark Ages of Equestria. The story for this plot takes place 30 years later, where after the original Mane 6 kills their enemies, Princess Celestia decided to exiles them because killing is wrong, causing Twilight Sparkle and her 5 friends to form 6 factions. The 6 factions were: The House of Magic, where it's created by Twilight Sparkle, The House of Laughter, where it's created by Pinkie Pie, The House of Kindness, where it's created by Fluttershy, The House of Generosity, where it's created by Rarity, The House of Honesty, where it's created by Applejack, and The House of Loyalty, where it's created by Rainbow Dash. With 6 factions being formed, The Young 6, a.k.a. the new Mane 6, have no choice but to defeat The original Mane 6, because Princess Celestia ordered them to do it so that Equestria can finally be at peace. It would be a very dark story and it would have a teen+ or mature ratings on it.

@Tripp1993

4 жыл бұрын

That sounds crazy... but why did you type this here? Only asking.

@ianfontanet4230

4 жыл бұрын

@@Tripp1993 just showing comparisons, that's all.

@Tripp1993

4 жыл бұрын

@@ianfontanet4230 Good point...

@cicolasnage5684

Жыл бұрын

Thank god you don’t work at IDW

I agree. Interesting analysis

Do Astro City

I really liked Kingdom Come when I read it about 5 years after it came out. But the Plot idea of this Twilight sounds packed with so much more rich buttery goodness. The story idea also seems to fit into the DC universe better than Kingdom Come does/did. with 2020 hindsight (literally) I can see that KC was built on a reaction of Classic Comics vs. '90s Gadgets, Guns and Grunge, while Twilight sounds like it would have been an actual piece of Art.

@TheFLAMEXD

2 жыл бұрын

Twilight doesn't sound like art, it sounds very jaded and nihilistic, killing all the superheroes and labelling them all as bad for no reason.

Aside from that intro music being ear r*pe and the busting everyone listening to stuff on the down low . A good video.

@StrangeBrainParts

Жыл бұрын

Sorry. Sincerely...it's an issue that's been taken care of now. I don't know why that happens in earlier videos. Because...it was mixed down to the same level as the vocals.

Marvel has something similar to Twilight of the Superheroes. It's called Marvel 2099. At least, there was Marvel 2099. A possible future of the main marvel universe. A what if storyline. And the world of marvel 2099, feels like definitive ending to the marvel universe all together. It almost feel like Twilight of the Superheroes with marvel characters in it. I find it similar to the canceled Alan Moore storyline.

@javib2978

6 ай бұрын

Marvel 2099 has an almost similar plot to Twilight of the Superheroes too.

@javib2978

3 ай бұрын

While someone at Marvel: Let's create a story set in the future. Many decades later. Something similar to Twilight of the Superheroes. Named Marvel 2099. I also find Marvel 2099 as a form of deconstruction too. Trying to fix the Damage of the dark and extreme 90's era.

Does anyone know what exactly was Alan Moore’s objection to comics having comics have advisory labels?

@michaelsantamaria5295

2 жыл бұрын

Alan Moore sorta pioneer the vertigo line in which did not adherer to the comic book authority guide lines. The Comic code Authority was a super right winged association that "regulated" and censor comic books after the horribly homophobic & agenda driven book "seduction of the innocence" that blame Comic books for Adolescence delinquency. the result of this was the silver age of comic you know where they had to be zany and weird due to the massive restriction the association has placed on it such as "no mention of drugs" or "defamatory of Christian religion or mention of supernatural ". Marvel & Dc follow this guide line and earning the comic code Authority seal of approval out of fear of parent support of CCA. By the Bronze age late 70s early 80 Stan lee just gave the middle finger to CCA with spider-man, Luke Cage & etc. It would follow suit Dc with Alan Moore Watchman & Swamp thing, Frank Miller's Dark Knight and others where the two company just didn't give a shit and by the early 2000 was completely defunct. For Alan Moore advisory label was simply a symbol of the censorship of a very stupid system at the time Despite this Alan Moore would then bitch about how people are taking comic book too serious and how wrong it is normal audience like the MCU but that Post-watchmen Alan Moore just saying contradictory shit because DC pulled a fast one on him

Will you be doing Earth X aswell?

Honestly, I hate the sound of Moore's story. Super heroes as antagonists that need to be kicked out so human heroes (Batman) can defend the world properly. I hate this idea that people with super powers will inevitably be tyrants, that characters like Superman are destined to become dictators and the only good heroes are non powered ones like Batman. Kingdom Come is better in my opinion because the super powered people aren't bad just because they have power but because they are being far too dangerous and careless with how they use it, Superman accidentally becomes antagonistic just trying to help the situation and the ending allows super powered beings and humans to co-exist and help one another. Moore's story just seems like another evil Superman story and I am tired of those. I am tired of bright and hopeful heroes being twisted into antagonistic roles because pessimistic people can't bare the thought that not everyone is a piece of shit. Maybe I misunderstood or there is more to it than explained but Twilight of Superheroes sounded like shit to me, I am glad we got Kingdom Come instead.

@elijahfordsidioticvarietys8770

3 жыл бұрын

"I hate this idea that people with super powers will inevitably be tyrants, that characters like Superman are destined to become dictators and the only good heroes are non powered ones like Batman." That's an anti-authoritarian idea. Characters like Superman are authoritarian, pro dictator propaganda because they portray all powerful individuals as good for society.

@elijahfordsidioticvarietys8770

3 жыл бұрын

Alan Moore is an anarchist, so of course he would think that way.

@fredrikgranstrom6743

3 жыл бұрын

@@elijahfordsidioticvarietys8770 ye

@TheFLAMEXD

2 жыл бұрын

@@elijahfordsidioticvarietys8770 Superman was created by two Jewish men and serves as an allegory for Moses. He's not even close to pro-dictator, pro-propaganda or any rubbish like that.

I wouldn't say cpt marvel fighting superman is that deep. The two are seen as equal in old lore and in real life are have a plagiarism history

Sounds like in the end Kingdom Come was the better story. Moore has been ... well ... a washed out piece of nothing for the majority of his later career. His Twilight proposal storyline as told here started off pretty neat but quickly it just went ... flat. Maybe the finer details left out would have improved my feels toward the idea but the "grand plan" as it is lost my interest almost as soon as it piqued. Having not read Kingdom Come (though it is hard not to have seen a few videos that basically negate any reason to read it at this point) throughout your telling of its timeline I was pretty much captivated through and through. Good choice D.C. NOBODY should from then on have greenlit anything for Moore. Like that Image comics 1963 deal ... I bought the first issue, put it back into the poly bag, and didn't buy the rest. Haven't had any interest in anything that Moore has done ... really at all ... and yeah I know I use a whole shit ton of ellipsis in every ... comment ... I write ... ... ...

@MysteriousTomJenkins

4 жыл бұрын

I like a few things Moore has written like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Swamp Thing and especially Watchmen but I feel the same way, Moore's story sounded like shit and did not interest me at all. I have read Kingdom Come and loved it, was cool and hopeful where as Moore's story just seemed negative and dark with all the super heroes being ruling families controlling the population. Why do so many writers have to make Superman a dictator, what the fuck?

@terskatti4994

3 жыл бұрын

marvel and dc have been washed out pieces of nothing for decades and finally at least one of them is crumbling down.

@raycom201

2 жыл бұрын

@@terskatti4994 which one are you referring to

@TheFLAMEXD

2 жыл бұрын

@@terskatti4994 Shut up.

Big Red Cheese. . . lulz.

so Legends of Tomorrow is the shitty result. Wonderful.

No Honor (Among Plagiarists)

Kingdom Come is vastly superior than twighlight imo

Nuke u lar eh

Superhero comics used to be about virtue. Now, unfortunately, they're about virtue signaling.

@fredrikgranstrom6743

3 жыл бұрын

🤣🤣

@TheFLAMEXD

2 жыл бұрын

Right, because nothing says virtue signalling like saving people and living for a better tomorrow. You know nothing of superheroes.

I think Twilight was the worst ic eighties edge and would have taken severe liberties with everyone.

Wow that means if twilight was made dc could have had it's universe in a better.place with no trash new 52 and doomsday clock😞

@TheFLAMEXD

2 жыл бұрын

They're not trash but go off.

@cicolasnage5684

Жыл бұрын

Doomsday Clock trash wasn’t trash, in fact it undid what damage new 52 did. Dummy.

The writing in Kingdom come, was not that impressive.

@skazkatzroy3444

8 ай бұрын

Your m o m o m was not that. . . impressive.